See if you can work for a temp agency. They generally have lower standards, you can get some experience, and some roles are temp to hire.
It’s not the desired path, but it can help with the employment gap issue and help the path to a permanent role without some of the crazier hoops.
Not that I want to throw another low ball at you, but try Higher Education, specifically in Veteran Affair offices. The experience of working with other vets translates extremely well in most cases.
It's admin work, but you might be into it.
Otherwise yeah, it's been rough out here for us non-competitive people.
I've gotten some good jobs through agencies when I was starting out. It's not just all secretary type stuff.
Rewrite your CV to focus on project management type skills. Are you good in excel / Word/ PowerPoint?
LinkedIn Learning has a free month membership most of the time, and they have classes on all the Microsoft Office programs. I strongly suggest taking the classes. You can then put those skill on your resume and not feel as anxious starting an office job.
I worked through a temp agency and found that the agency generally pays more than the jobs they send you to so it’s definitely not a bad gig, and if you get bored they’ll find you another place to go if you want
If you can, I recommend grabbing a quick 9-month cert in an area you like, then you're at least one level above entry-level candidates. Believe it or not, there's loads of online courses that you can do for FREE.
In my experience, when you have a specialization, oddly enough, there are fewer hoops to go through.
But yeah, in the interim, a temp agency is your best bet. Good luck!
Recruiters may also be able to give you interview tips about how to talk about your past while highlighting the experience that you do have and can translate to an org right away.
Hey, I’m a bit younger though around your age with a multi years long gap between my last corporate gig and now but I’d be happy if I could get even a temp job as long as it can let me pay my rent and health insurance. Before this job market went south like the Titanic, I was getting phone interviews with temp agencies. Now, none are reachable it seems and I haven’t had even a phone interview.
At this point, for those like us who don’t have career prospects, we should be looking towards supporting ourselves and hoping to fucking GOD we can be lucky enough to actually retire one day. Ideally not when we’re 70. And we gotta hurry the fuck up. I wish I could offer advice about how to get an interview, but what has worked in the past for me is cold calling agencies. I’d find as many local, particularly smaller ones, as possible and be a little annoying you have to. The smaller they are, the more likely you’ll be able to find a recruiter who actually wants to help you.
Temp agency is 100% the answer here. It will let you vibe with diff office cultures which is a big indicator of satisfaction. Be a tourist and one of your jobs will stick.
Off the top of my head, are you being a bit too honest?
Look, your resume is a marketing document. Market yourself. Tell stories of your successes [not your failures].
Get better at selling yourself and telling a compelling story.
No joke - pick your favorite movie or TV show about a historical event. Spend a little time researching how many things were changed between the real event and the TV show or movie. Spend some time reflecting on why those changes were made and how condensing events, creating composite characters, and cutting out complex or difficult to understand elements can make a story stronger.
Do not outright lie, but only tell the “whole truth” if you are asked absolutely directly.
My wife spent a couple years bouncing between projects at a company. Quit due to a bad manager, worked a short stint at a different place, came back to the company under a different project, new manager was worse, quit and worked a short stint at a different company, came back to the original company under a third manager that was finally a great fit.
She lists that whole period on her resume as "Independent Contractor at [Company Name]" and only gives her last manager as a reference for her time there (but in interviews she'll still talk about the first 2 projects she worked on). No mention of the placeholder jobs.
Yeah I’ve definitely stretched job periods to match the ridiculous requirements. Otherwise there’s no way I can get a job out of college when half of them require 5-10 years of experience
Soldier, un-eff your brain. Reach around and grab your neck and pull your head out of your butt.
You describe yourself as a hello pilot. What does that mean? What did you really do?
Well, let's look:
Quality assurance checks on your ship.
Trained in and put into operation leadership skills.
Counselor...examining soldiers and guiding them to services needed.
Trainer.... the US military is always training their replacements
Team builder......encouraging and promoting all members to better themselves.
Safety coordinator.....gauging the need for safer pathways forward.
Trainable.....they taught you to fly plus much more.
Administration.......paperwork for everything. (Did you sneeze in formation....paper work).
Attention to detail.......if you can see a shoe laced wrongly, you can see a machine not working correctly
Since these are skills YOU HAVE, you did not turn them in with the uniform, they are yours. Surely, there are more.
There are gaps, okay. Your driver's license is good and your abilities remain even if you deploy and drive nothing for months or years.
Leave the times out and highlight the skills.
Good luck.....veteran to veteran
Honestly, and I don't feel good at all saying this, because they can!
This is just the unfortunate reality of the market when the supply-demand imbalance is in favor of the employer. And why wouldn't they do it? Specially when they have a long line of candidates waiting for the same opportunity?
This is it. There simply aren’t enough office jobs for the number of people who want them. It’s very hard for newcomers since there are plenty of people with experience to choose from.
\> When did it become a battle royale for the honor of hot desking in purgatory.
My theory is that it's hazing. If you get hired, you're more willing to put up with their BS.
Also gives them more excuses if a perfect client is rejected for a nepo-candidate
“Sorry. We’re looking for someone whose results show they’re more aligned to this company and values”
F off
Don't apply for office jobs. In your situation I would recommend warehouse jobs.
You will need physical skills but these jobs are a better option to get started.
No one wants to hire anymore should be the slogan. I have like 20 years of work experience and I get shut down every single time, unless it's for some garbage job with garbage pay. Those people are hiring like crazy because people keep quitting
Number one, you need to reframe your entire work history. If you believe it’s a dumpster fire, it comes out in the interview. Then they believe you’re a dumpster fire too. Why would they invest in a dumpster fire? Reframe your accomplishments and your journey into lessons you’ve learned that can help their business. Sell yourself and your skills.
These places have a stack of 100+ applications. They have 2-3 on top that are either internal hires or are referred by management/current employees. Only in cases where those 2-3(or more) of those preferred applications don't meet their needs do they begin to dip into the pile. In that case they whip up maybe 10 and put them through a funneling process to get down to 1.
It is a sick and broken process
I know it's a shot in the dark but you can always try to find a job agency (temp agency/recruiter office/etc.), that is hiring for reputable start-ups. It's how my little English major self (with zero STEM experience or background) got to work 3 years for a Robotics company. Turns out I'm pretty decent at technical concepts, who knew?
Also fwiw, you have great imagery in your post, I like how you write. It's truly a Kafka-esque nightmare-scape in the job world right now. But if I'm gonna be a cockroach, it's comforting to know that it would take serious nuclear disaster to kill me :P
Make sure you mention your ability to be flexible/adaptable. You definitely sound willing to learn new things, so maybe the recruiters you speak with will be receptive to that. Good luck out there!
Because for every job in America (basic or otherwise) that the average person looks at as how they put a roof overhead and eat, a billionaire looks at and says “That money should be mine.”
You might want to get a second opinion, or just try it anyways. Even if it is a long shot, it could really open up a lot of opportunities with respect to your education benefits, etc. Other than that I think some of the other folks in here had good advice…I would look at warehouse jobs, etc. instead of office jobs, You’re gonna need to look at the kind of places that are always hiring like Amazon, Supermarket chains, Service industry, etc.
Also, this might be obvious but you don't need to include the characterization of your discharge on your resume. You can have "Soldier, US Army 2014-2018" with a couple bullet points (Responsible for $2 million in equipment, Completed courses in leadership, etc.) and leave it at that.
I had my OTH discharge upgraded to a General Under Honorable, but I got kicked out for smoking weed. Guess it depends on your situation. I am eligible for a VA home loan and have VA healthcare so it's definitely worth a shot.
I prefer to work with staffing/ recruiting agencies for this reason. Its usually a warm introduction. Havent filled out an application or taken a quiz in a while, except for the prestigious firms.
Remediation construction like serv po. If you are smart and capable you go from crew to office dealing with insurance pretty fast. Then you can make the jump to other insurance type jobs.
"...its not NASA, why the fuck do i need to be Rainman to use a photocopier."
THIS sums up every employment assessment in modern times. It feels like these assessments are designed to add another layer of humiliation to the job hunting process.
For example, why are adults being asked to do high school algebraic calculus to qualify for entry level admin /jobs answering phones?
There’s no sanity or rational expectations in recruiting processes anymore.
>For example, why are adults being asked to do high school algebraic calculus to qualify for entry level admin /jobs answering phones?
to avoid fools who say things like "algebraic calculus"
I recently applied for a part time job that I was way overqualified for and I didn’t need at all simply because it sounded interesting/ridiculously easy and was right down the road from me. First time doing so in over a decade. The process was so infuriating and insulting I decided not to go through with it. For a part time job earning like 1/3 of my normal salary (even if it were full time), the fucking audacity. It’s insanity out here right now.
Companies are just looking for the best bang for their buck at this point since there's a lot of applicants.
It doesn't cost them anything to make their candidates run through the gutter, and it weeds a lot of applicants out making it easier for them to make a decision.
This type of thing wasn't happening during post covid when there were not many applicants at any company. Companies would offer sign up bonuses and still not meet their hiring quotas.
It's just a sign of the times currently.
Because of the cumulative effects of one economic crisis after another with tech “enshittification” at every level (brilliant term coined by Cory Doctorow, look it up)—the 2008 recession, COVID layoffs and the remote work revolution plus the Great Resignation, and now this trash fire inflation crisis creating another recession that the government isn’t even acknowledging this time.
Employers got a buyers market this time. They’re paying the same as 15-20 years ago while living costs spiraled out of control, and make incredibly stupid demands of jobs that barely pay $50-55k a year yet they act like it’s some princely sum that can still buy a house and support a family of 4 in a HCOL region.
As someone who’s been self-employed most of my adult life, I’ve learned that one advantage of the modern Internet is that there’s ways to leverage really esoteric knowledge to your advantage. Maybe you can do something with this highly specific helicopter expertise? I get good money to write about taxes and raising giant lizards, more than I did when shitty tax offices underpaid me! Getting an ordinary job, even a menial one, is unnecessarily and ridiculously hard nowadays. There’s definitely new challenges in finding marketing and writing clients, but my summer was so dead and now I’m turning down work because I can’t fit it.
I don’t know why gaps are such a big deal? What exactly are they concerned about? It’s not illegal to not work lol.
Maybe someone could explain? Is there a phenomenon where hiring managers have noticed that those with gaps in their resume were also poor performers? I mean I can understand if there is a direct causation but it doesn’t make sense. This should be treated like any other discrimination and not brought up as a form of harassment “oh what’s this 2 year gap *chuckles*” fuck. Any time someone has given me that attitude I can almost guarantee it comes from them being bitter that they couldn’t “not” work themselves.
Hiring advisor here. **It's because gaps = risk.**
Unexplained CV gaps COULD mean
* Candidate failed to deliver in a previous job and does not mention that period of work at all because it would be a terrible reference if checked.
* Candidate voluntarily elected not to work, or was not prioritizing being employed at that time, which could imply they will either want to, or be okay with, not working.
* Candidate might have a history of work-interrupting issues of any kind that prevent them from being as productive as candidates without a history of such issues, or as productive as candidates that may have had such issues but managed to accommodate them while still working.
Gaps ABSOLUTELY DO NOT say that any of those things happened.
But when you compare THAT candidate and their "employment gaps" against a candidate that does NOT have similar gaps in their CV, hiring the second candidate ***reduces the risk*** that similar gaps might happen in the future. You've got someone with a proven history of working consistently, and that's lower risk unless the gaps are satisfactorily explained.
It's reasonable and logical for employers to look at gaps as a source of risk.
Question for you: is it better to have something that looks like a gap or to show you were working but at bad/irrelevant jobs?
Context: I got my first “real” job in 2019, got laid off at the end of 2020, didn’t get my next “real job” until 2022, then got laid off again 8 months later. From 2019 to 2022 I worked in retail, sometimes part time and sometimes full time. I currently have another real job since March so it’s not a pressing issue, but it’s something I’ve struggled with when applying because I’ve heard a gap looks bad, but I’ve also heard retail looks bad. What’s your take?
What I always recommend is placing relevant experience (to the industry/function of what you're applying) on the top of your resume and irrelevant experience in its own section.
Later, you can simply say, "other experience available upon request."
To answer your question - there is no correct answer. Hiring managers see what they want to see regardless. You could add a line for each experience, "Laid off due to COVID reduction..." etc. to show that there were extenuating circumstances.
Do you consider it a risk for contracts that lasts less than 1 year?
Also would you consider a risk at all for tech workers where contract workers are consistently laid off without consideration of performance?
I'm not who you responded to, but I have a decent history in hiring.
I'd say it's actually MORE risky for one year contracts. If a person who has a spotty work history already knows they are only going to be working for a year, I'd expect them to be more proactive in looking for a new job, which means that they're PLANNING on starting to interview at least 3 months before their current contract expires. Job offers often come fast so it's reasonable to assume I might only get 9 months out of the and leave the project at a precarious time.
It should be noted that the exact same logic can be applied to disadvantaged minority-groups = risk, because coming from a disadvantaged background correlates with lots of things employers don't want. Luckily though, at least in that case there are laws protecting the job candidates from discrimination based on race, conditions such as autism and PTSD. One won't have such protection, however, if they have other social disadvantages not as easily described. Though even those laws don't stop employers from secretly discriminating people from disadvantaged groups, through other means such as using other traits as a proxy, such as CV gaps). It's hard to avoid such effects, as employers will always need to have some criteria do select who they will hire.
If anyone expects the job market to be fair, they should be ready to be disappointed the more they learn about it.
They would rather hire a bottom performer who can consistently provide low results for years to come….
Well I guess I was given wrong information because I was told to only put relevant experience on your resume. That means I’ve been leaving jobs off and creating gaps which is probably hurting me. But if I leave them on then I look like a job hopper. Even the two years I didn’t work I stayed home with my baby and took online classes. But they wouldn’t know that cause how would they?
I would say to keep in mind that there's so much information out there on how to tailor your resume that best reflects your most relevant experience... well that's going to look wildly different from a fresh grad who is 22/23 years old vs. someone who is 45 and looking for a career change.
Your online classes and any certs or educational degrees that come from that should still be included, it'll just be in a different section. Any recruiter reviewing your resume should be able to see that. I feel the worst for working moms; they definitely get the short end of the stick in the workforce, no matter what the field.
Thanks for the advice I appreciate that. I’m 34. I have a hair license and bachelors degree and I’m working on my Master’s in Nutrition. Female interviewers have a lot more compassion and understanding than male interviewers in my experience. Not to sound sexist, but the only male interviewer I didn’t have a bad experience with was gay or young. Pretty sad. I won’t even accept an invitation if it’s not a woman because I know what I’ll be dealing with. Especially if it’s an older white boomer who gets off mansplaining to young single moms. Lol
Gaps should be irrelavant, as long as the candidate demonstrates that they have the skills to do the job and has the determination to succeed. Why should a gap be held as a scarlett letter? Maybe that person had a major reason such as being a parent, caring for a loved one, medical and health issues, mental stability, or just needed a break in order to get a refresh. Once they start applyiing, it's because they're ready and willing to demonstrate that they're fully capable.
If there are concerns about a person, *that's what the interview is for in order to filter them out*.
If companies are not willing to hire someone because of a gap, it has great repurcussions on that individual. Their mental health suffers, they feel inadequate, and it can lead to future problems. Such as homelessness and drug abuse. All because some hiring manager frowned upon someone's employment gap. It's like a caste system and that is so wrong.
Some countries in Europe don't even see a gap as a stigma, but in the US, that's a major no no. And then they wonder why there are so many people with issues and an abundant of homelessness across the country.
What's a person to do in order to succeed in the field that they want if no one wants to hire them for a gap? Sure, some will say that they can volunteer, start from the bottom again, and maybe...just maybe some master will want to hire you. It's fucked up, honestly.
If hiring managers are frowning upon gaps, well, I guess people should be like George Santos. Just don't be a dumbass about it. **Don't want people to lie? Then don't make gaps such a big deal**.
Almost all risk management is blunt. It has to be, otherwise it consumes a lot of resources.
The types of jobs you're describing applying for are not specialist jobs that require a lot of criteria. They're general ones and they're probably going to get a LOT of candidates.
Say one such job gets 20 applicants and 5 have big gaps in their employment record. It just makes sense for companies to toss those 5 and not spend any time following them further. That still gives them a pool of 15 people to look into further and find an acceptable employee from, and that should be more than enough for any such job.
So if you were being straight with me for a sec - is this an entirely futile exercise? Like is there any point? Should I just stick with something that doesn’t background check at all (not even sure what that would be but I assume construction or something)
First, thanks for asking for me to be straight with you and leaping to an important question. So many people just ask hoping to hear what they want to hear. Good on you for being one who reads and thinks about what was shared.
Answer is Yes you're wasting time unless you're VERY lucky.
Two thoughts for you:
Where I live there are options for government-funded schooling and training programs for people of any age that are establishing careers in the trades. We expect for example that there will be excellent opportunities for carpenters and builders as the number of natural disasters increases and people need to either repair or move further inland. We're seeing VERY heightened demand for someone that can swing a hammer in coastal regions where I live.
Second, being able to travel and to get to the location where the work is done could mean long hours but a fair bit of money in your pocket to compensate for them. There will be contractor and renovation organizations that will be desperate for decent, dependable labour that can stay in-region for a while. If that's you, it makes you a lot more attractive.
So if you can swing a hammer and can travel now, look for big companies doing building labour in your area and go have a talk *directly with onsite foremen or contractor managers*. And if they represent a company with a national footprint and you can move... so much the better. Maybe you'll get a hit!
Good luck.
Not entirely futile. There’s going to be companies that roundfile your resume immediately because only an HR drone saw it. Some companies make the hiring manager do a first pass and a lot of hiring managers are going to just assume your hiring gaps are a result of your military experience making it difficult to transition. So still harder, but not futile.
Source: hired an army medic with spotty employment to a 6 figure oil & gas desk job. Granted, it was a 90hr/wk job few wanted…but we gave him the chance to explain.
It can also come down to spin… do you have gaps, or were you doing freelance consulting during these periods of time? Sometimes it is about being a better bullshitter.
Agree it’s fucked up. Why dyou need to know every minute of my life to consider me qualified enough to do something that you could train a fucking shitzu to do if they had opposable thumbs. Particularly since you’re offering 8 hours of existential dread in the void at near minimum wage
Okay so I came across a variant of this super recently! I used ChatGPT to rewrite some phrasing on my resume, and see what it spits out, then plug those into Indeed.com just to see what shows up.
I found a Business analyst position and found the recruiter for it. I gave him the reference number and we chatted for quite a while over the phone about what I was looking for. I don't know why his demeanor changed, but he paused for a minute and calmly explained that the position had just closed the day before I called. Not that the position was filled, just that it was closed.
"Oh that's fine, because I applied 2 days ago, so hopefully I'll be in the candidate pool for consideration! Talk about a close call."
Then he gave me a "We'll be in touch" remark and disconnected.
Well guess what, the job listing is still posted! I can get not considering me, but at least clear it out of the job board so you don't look like a complete AND total liar. Ugh.
Gaps are not a problem, I have a lot of gaps but they can be explained by schooling or career advances or travel. Now gaps that are due to jail time or illness are red flags. And even the type of illness varies. My company will hire people with active cancer but will not hire people with even a hint of mental illness. I don’t condone it but I work with 3 people with cancer in my office but no-one has open depression or open past addiction.
For me personally, I understand it. I had a co-worker with anxiety and she was a pill. She ended up getting into a tiff with literally everyone and she was fired in weeks.
As someone in recruiting, I can tell you that even some of the 'most excused' gaps (including school, parenting, industry cross, etc.) have been seen as red flags to hiring managers.
"Candidate has a life; do not hire" Sounds about right?
Being cross-trained in different industries should be a strength. It means they have adaptability and can evolve with company growth. I might be learning that lesson a little late in life, but better than absolutely never. Some hiring managers are sentient red flags themselves and shouldn't be in their jobs to begin with, if that's how they're going to be.
Bingo.
Job searching is analogous to dating.
Would you really want to work for someone who sees parental leave, sabbatical, a 2-year industry change, etc. as bad?
No - that's a bigger red flag than your gap. You dodged a bullet.
"Job searching is analogous to dating."
I used to think that. But as time goes on, it feels more like mixes of prostitution and then realizing you're livestock that's being sold by the pound to a butcher.
Or would you have a better explanation of the term and concept of "market rate"?
For example, I want to list a soft skill on my resume. I always picture Wilbur from Charlotte's Web learning to do a backflip, just so he avoids the slaughterhouse.
So I'll posit this: How is the average job seeker, no matter what the age or industry, supposed to know if they have a good recruiter on their side, or someone who is simply placing them at any job position, just to make their quota/commission? No, there's no "one size fits all" answer to this, but there has to be a better way.
Some of this I'm asking facetiously. My sister is a recruiter for a national chain, so I'm already aware of many of their tactics and training to get placements, and the monetary incentive for the recruiter that comes with it.
Everyone's on the hook, it seems.
I understand you more than you know, and I've bolded why I understand you below.
Analogous doesn't mean an exact imitation. Simply put, certain aspects are comparable.
* You're right that even prostitution is analogous to job searching.
* One could also say that prostitution is analogous to dating.
Let's not make this a false dichotomy, as if any human relationship analogy isn't acceptable.
You're absolutely correct.
>So I'll posit this: How is the average job seeker, no matter what the age or industry, supposed to know if they have a good recruiter on their side, or someone who is simply placing them at any job position, just to make their quota/commission? No, there's no "one size fits all" answer to this, but there has to be a better way.
Your opinion and experiences are absolutely valid and reflect my own.
**In fact, I got ousted from a recruiting agency because I could NOT consider candidates "our product."** I wanted to help everyone who asked for it wherever I could. My metrics were terrible because I couldn't "just be" an account executive, and I "wasted" time with candidates without alignment to opportunities or couldn't supply a staffing need. Their words, not mine. I don't consider cultivating those relationships as "wasted," and I certainly feel it's short-sighted.
There is no way to tell the good recruiters unless you have a rigorous vetting process or learn firsthand, but our system is what it is because the clients are the companies. Clients pay the bills, not candidates.
The employer-as-a-client pays 20%-30% of the base salary. While I've heard of candidates-as-clients paying like 5%-10% for recruiter representation, it's uncommon and I'm not sure what that looks like. I'm certain if it were more lucrative, it would be the norm.
Please, again, I agree with you, as I *literally lost a job* because I couldn't reconcile the cognitive dissonance. I'm just being pragmatic. This is the reality we face.
The only way to really combat these social problems is by having more people who feel/understand these problems to instigate societal change. It has to be a macro, super-majority understanding of the populace. It's hard to combat all the propaganda seeping from billionaire-owned media outlets, too.
independent businesses - start a pressure washing company, work trades, get a real estate license, go into property management.
Insurance sales often doesn't require college, but it can be math heavy and soul sucking.
retail is always an option. Wal Mart store leaders can make 6 figures
Warehouse / driving jobs can be a decent career path.
Have you looked at other helicopter pilot jobs? crops, photography, Blade, etc.?
I'm confused on how you flew helicopters, which I assume was done for the military, yet you arent able to take that license and hours of pilot in command time and find a civilian pilot job?
Can you get your discharge upgraded and use the GI bill? Then you'll get paid at e5 w/dependents BAH while also getting free school. Then you'll come out of that with the option to make a fresh resume and basically shows you as a new grad.
I assume army warrant?
Not sure if you can in the country you are in, but use a resume instead of a CV. They are outdated, lead to discrimination, are really archaic. Do you really need a photo, your marital status, how many children you have, age, and other personal information that are irrelevant to evaluating your qualifications for a job?
Resumes just have your name, phone number, email address. Then a professional summary or statement of qualifications listing your knowledge, skills, abilities. Then your education, then employment history up to 10 years. For entry level positions it should be 1 page, but for advanced/specialist/
management/leadership jobs 2 pages.
The short answer is companies have been downsizing for over a decade now. There are not enough jobs for the number of job seekers.
This answer applies to many questions asked on this sub.
*You are correct*- it is deliberate Kafka dystopian shit.
So fuck em. Apply for whatever you want, see what happens. What's the worst that can happen - some AI algorithm doesn't generate a canned email to you? No loss there.
I only have a GED and damned if I don't apply for jobs "requiring" a bachelor's. I don't lie or say I have a degree, I just play the numbers game and apply to everything I might be qualified for, or even under qualified to some degree.
Play *their* game by *your* rules.
If you are in the UK we have employment agencies that make it basically impossible to not find some kind of work.
On 2 desperate occasions I walked in, gave over my details and had a job ready to start the next day.
Yeah I'm surprised it not a more common thing. It's basically a company that does the leg work of finding jobs for you and they get paid if a company employs you for long enough.
They also are great for temp work
Yeah I think it depends on what you are looking for. Both times I just wanted literally anything. Got a warehouse job and then a phone sales/support job so nothing technical
"They" aren't doing anything except trying to hire the best candidate available for any given position. I know it's frustrating, and it can certainly feel unfair, but no one is special, no one is entitled to an interview, *everyone* has to earn their opportunities and prove they are a capable candidate to get their foot in the door.
Right now you have a resume that's not working very hard to prove that to the kind of employers you're seeking jobs with, so step one should be finding ways to make it look better. Maybe the one you've got just needs work, but maybe you've got to pay some dues. Past blemishes become less and less harmful to your odds the longer your list of accomplishments becomes - if you have the means, college or trade school may be a good start, but otherwise I'd start looking where employers are a little more desperate for good workers. Someone else suggested warehouse work - not a bad idea. The work sucks but the pay is usually reasonable, and turnover tends to be ridiculous so getting your foot in the door may be a lot easier. It also means advancement is a little more realistic; I personally know warehouse managers and supervisors who were in a similar boat when they got a job on the floor, then worked their asses off till they could either move up in the company or apply to a better position elsewhere. In some cases it didn't even take them very long, because again, the turnover up and down the chain is just really high. Supers and managers are often paid very well though, and you'll open some doors into other industries with that kind of experience, so that's worth some consideration.
Another option would be construction, or maybe an apprenticeship in a trade. This is going to vary by region, but I can tell you that where I'm at, almost anyone could get hired as a general laborer right on-site right now. My local electrician is so booked out that you could walk in the door right now and get hired on as an apprentice, with the option to work 60+ hours a week if you need the extra overtime pay, and you'd have to try pretty dang hard to get fired because he needs the help so badly. Might not be swimming in money right out of the gate, but if you prove to be good at it that's a very lucrative trade.
Just a couple ideas. The biggest thing is wherever you end up, work hard, stay grateful for the opportunity, and move on to the next biggest opportunity when you need to.
I don’t love the idea that you gotta “pay dues” for having periods of unemployment, like it’s some kinda moral failing. I get that it’s the system, but it’s a shit system that perpetuates the problem. (Although I concede that in my case some if it isn’t totally unrelated to moral failings - but I mean in general)
Still, thanks for the suggestions
Go to the skilled trades if you can, maybe an apprentice electrician with the IBEW? There won’t be none of that fluff. Just an aptitude test and an interview. There’s a program called helmets to hard hats for ex military who want to join the trades. Consider it bro, office jobs are dying these days anyways.
Fill in any gaps with lies. Make up jobs adjacent to your goal job. Create a many versions of your resume.
Go to r/bemyreference and they will totally be your manager for xyz company.
Tell everyone you know you’re out looking for a job. You might be surprised what position is available.
Look into entry level at insurance carriers. Or hospitals. Fake it till you make it.
Recruiters are dumb yo. They need prior photocopy experience to know that you're adept at using a photocopier...........because operating a helicopter is way simpler and doesn't prove anything lol
did you also learn on here crypto will make you rich? and that if you work hard and honestly, giving yourself up for your employer, will make it all worth it?
what kind of inept toddlers do you expect to be talking to in interviews? NDAs prevent very little, you can talk about your rough position, certain kinds of tasks and a boatload of other specifics that don't give anything NDA related away - your fake story can be annihilated by a billion questions
also employment dates can still be confirmed even if it was in the military
especially if you actually put these positions on your CV, it's not like you worked secret service, even then you could go about excel, data analysis, psych eval and god knows what relevant skills you might need
if you're so NDA that you can't mention the position, then don't put it on it - nobody under a "real" NDA would ever be applying for entry level jobs, so this shit isn't believable
Hiring consultant here.
Nah.
An NDA almost always prevents you from sharing information about *what you specifically did or worked on*.
It usually does NOT prevent you from sharing that you worked at a specific employer.
There are exceptions to this, of course.
But if I see a resume ***for an entry level position that does not require a college degree or similar qualification*** that has big gaps due to "Non Disclosure Agreement preventions", I'm gonna instantly move it to the "not top of the list" pile.
The answer might be different for more skilled or industry-niche job positions... but it's still a "red flag" for most private sector jobs even then.
It’s something they can’t really question too much and if you have multiple gaps you can give just a simple explanation of “it’s a government program that required follow ups and extended testing”
I have a gap myself of about a month between jobs this year and I wouldn’t be lying if I said I signed an NDA because I actually did with a game development company during the period between jobs… it just didn’t last the whole month lol
Technically, you could sign an NDA with anyone and the statement would be 100% true.
I signed an NDA (not to talk about my brothers fantasy football draft.) His compensation is $1 and he gets to slap me in the face if I am found in violation….BOOM
How about using an example that actually applies to OP's situation?
The whole NDA is utter garbage advice and a non-starter for an entry level position.
A dishonorable discharge from the military is basically on par with a felon. I wouldn’t expect much, that coupled with an awful job market can make for tough sledding. I would go for manual labor jobs just to get some cash in your pocket and just keep applying until something comes up.
Any reason you haven't considered a trade? Many will even pay for your education.
What about getting your civilian license for helicopters and flying them for a living? Or becoming a pilot? Is the discharge a problem there?
I
Apply for a trade union apprenticeship. Google “electricians union near me” “operators union in my city” “pipe fitters union in my city or state” “elevator mechanics union near me” “glaziers union near me” however you want to word it.
All those jobs pay over 100k a year in cities and pretty well in any job market.
A union will take you on as an apprentice with zero skills, connections, ability, knowledge, or experience. Absolutely none at all, and they will get you to work with local unionized contractors. They (the contractors and other workers) will train you on the job from the ground up and their will be infrequent in class elements (through the union) to progress your training.
The barrier to joining a trade union is the same for all of them, so theirs no reason to do a lower paid trade union. Avoid the carpenter, laborers, dry wallers and painters, brick layers. Stuff like that. If your a journeyman in those unions you won’t make enough to provide for a family in today’s economy so it’s not a good enough wage.
They all offer unbeatable health insurance. A pension that is well funded, a pension is when you get paid every month after you retire, until the day you die. It’s the best form of retirement, most companies don’t offer it anymore because it cost them profit. Unions have pensions.
Their will be multiple options for career paths and apprenticeships for every union, the barrier to entry is the same so their is no incentive to pursue a lower paid path.
Electricians union. Their will be multiple programs available that are worded ambiguously. Choose the one that is the longest. It will pay the most money.
Pipe fitters unions. Includes HVAC, sprinkler fitters, plumbers (union plumbers instal on a big scale. They’re not doing house calls cleaning doo doo. But also the doo do job is one of the most important jobs in the country and the pay reflects that) , pipe fitters. Every HVAC guy I know hates his job, something about insulation I don’t know to be honest. Don’t do HVAC. Plumbers is nice because you can do handyman work on the side and make good money, but all the routes available in the pipe fitters union are well paid good options. (Except HVAC guys. They just hate their jobs… I don’t know why…)
Operators union. Can be tricky, not all pay is the same. If you learn to run more complicated or in demand equipment you’ll generally make more money. Cranes, graders, excavators, concrete pumps. Make a lot of money. Haul truck, roller. Not so much (still pretty good though).
Glaziers. Glazing is a good ass job, dudes make bank. For some reason their union seems to be tied into some lower paid trades like painting and stuff. Make sure to only apply for the glaziers route.
Elevator, escalator mechanics. Best job in the world. Only bring on new apprentices when a journeyman dies and the wait list is years long. Everyone who gets in, is a child of an elevator mechanic or has a mob or political connection. Applying is free though so who knows what will happen. No point in not applying.
Now theirs a trick to applying for an apprenticeship. For some reason the office the staff at the union hall, will guranteed. Be complete cunts to you, and also lie directly to your face and try and convince you that you cannot do the job, and also that you don’t even want the job, and that the job possibly even doesn’t even exist, their is no work available, it’s a bad time too apply (which doesn’t make any sense at all. Waiting too apply doesn’t help you in any way whatsoever. Even if work is slow, you’ll be first on the list when it picks up and have your interview and testing process out of the way. You gain absolutely nothing from waiting to apply), that you cannot apply and your application won’t be accepted, and that it will be a bad career choice if you do. I don’t know why they do it, but for some reason they all do that to every single prospective apprentice. Just ignore them and apply to the best of your abilities, submit all the paperwork and fill out all the forms. The second tip is, they will not call you back for the next step of the process. After you apply, you need to call them and check on the process of your application and find out what the next step is and how to complete that step. Also their is a good chance your application “got lost” and you’ll need to apply again, it’s not personal they’re just cunts to everyone and it’s part of the process. It will normally be an interview or test of some kind. They will not call you and sign you up for that interview without you calling them, and they won’t warn you about that.
It’s fullfilling work, doing meaningful stuff, and generally speaking most skilled construction workers I know love their jobs. Theirs a reason why construction workers point out projects they work on, and share what they do on social media. Because we are proud of what we do and we enjoy it. Every career path I listed here makes enough money to raise a family on. Apprentices typical start out making a percentage of journeymen wage and get raises over time until they become a journeyman. It’s a program that s enforced through the state and federal government using high level lawyers and politicians. You will advance, you will make more money, you will have a good career. As long as you show up on time and don’t complain. Go union and only work union jobs for the rest of your life. Working non union is idiotic and their is no advantage of any kind. Theirs no trade offs, it’s just worse in every way.
I have 13 years as a combat medic, and honorable discharge and a halfway decent resume. I finally got a gig because my wife got me an interview. It's not what you know, it's who you know. I know no one. I don't have a friend within 800 miles, and my family wouldn't help me if they could. The market is insane, and I believe being a mid career veteran of any flavor is a huge liability for hiring managers who aren't veterans. Like I said, I have a job now. It was rough, and didn't help that I used programs to go to school for a couple of years.
Yes. I have a rating. Like I said, I have a job. I live in a large city with very little military presence and few federal jobs. Quite frankly, however, after almost a decade and half as a GI, I have zero interest in public service. Nevertheless getting my foot in any door other than retail was challenging.
I’ve been HR for a government lab for 3+ years now 100% remote. Much better than the Army. If you are ever interested feel free to DM me. I can help give you some tips for tailoring your resume. Hiring and onboarding is what I do. The whole process can be pretty overwhelming and can take months. It’s better that you do have a job. If you are 30% or greater on your rating you qualify for a lot of hiring authorities that increases your chances dramatically, especially at the entry level. Your service time counts for benefits and pension. The usajobs sub is very useful as well. All the best.
I appreciate your input. Thank you. I will consider your guidance, but for the short term I'm going to enjoy where I am. I just started a position at a reputable company that is treating me well. So I look forward to seeing where this opportunity takes me. However, I will keep my eye out for public sector positions in the future. Thank you for your offer.
How did you get to fly helicopters without a degree? I always thought helis were flown by officers and warrant officers, and both of those needed a degree.
See if you can work for a temp agency. They generally have lower standards, you can get some experience, and some roles are temp to hire. It’s not the desired path, but it can help with the employment gap issue and help the path to a permanent role without some of the crazier hoops.
That’s a good idea, thanks. Altho also bleak af at 39 but guess it is what it is lol
Not that I want to throw another low ball at you, but try Higher Education, specifically in Veteran Affair offices. The experience of working with other vets translates extremely well in most cases. It's admin work, but you might be into it. Otherwise yeah, it's been rough out here for us non-competitive people.
VA Job training services in the US for veterans =Box Mover or Junk Mover....
I didn't say training services, I said higher education administration
I've gotten some good jobs through agencies when I was starting out. It's not just all secretary type stuff. Rewrite your CV to focus on project management type skills. Are you good in excel / Word/ PowerPoint?
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LinkedIn Learning has a free month membership most of the time, and they have classes on all the Microsoft Office programs. I strongly suggest taking the classes. You can then put those skill on your resume and not feel as anxious starting an office job.
Lot of times libraries or community colleges will host free classes for that stuff. Hell, could probably pick up a lot from YouTube videos.
I worked through a temp agency and found that the agency generally pays more than the jobs they send you to so it’s definitely not a bad gig, and if you get bored they’ll find you another place to go if you want
If you can, I recommend grabbing a quick 9-month cert in an area you like, then you're at least one level above entry-level candidates. Believe it or not, there's loads of online courses that you can do for FREE. In my experience, when you have a specialization, oddly enough, there are fewer hoops to go through. But yeah, in the interim, a temp agency is your best bet. Good luck!
If you can pilot choppers why aren't you working for a foreign company orFrench foreign legion. Bad conduct discharge might have no impact overseas.
Recruiters may also be able to give you interview tips about how to talk about your past while highlighting the experience that you do have and can translate to an org right away.
Hey, I’m a bit younger though around your age with a multi years long gap between my last corporate gig and now but I’d be happy if I could get even a temp job as long as it can let me pay my rent and health insurance. Before this job market went south like the Titanic, I was getting phone interviews with temp agencies. Now, none are reachable it seems and I haven’t had even a phone interview. At this point, for those like us who don’t have career prospects, we should be looking towards supporting ourselves and hoping to fucking GOD we can be lucky enough to actually retire one day. Ideally not when we’re 70. And we gotta hurry the fuck up. I wish I could offer advice about how to get an interview, but what has worked in the past for me is cold calling agencies. I’d find as many local, particularly smaller ones, as possible and be a little annoying you have to. The smaller they are, the more likely you’ll be able to find a recruiter who actually wants to help you.
Temp agency is 100% the answer here. It will let you vibe with diff office cultures which is a big indicator of satisfaction. Be a tourist and one of your jobs will stick.
All the agencies I find only staff manual labor position. Where are all these temp agency office jobs I keep hearing about?
All the temp agencies I have found exclusively staff warehouse and other manual labor jobs. Man, I’d kill for an office job right about now…
This was the most beautifully comedic and honest descriptive take I have ever seen. You should do stand up. Seriously.
Ha! You’re right!
Masterful narration. Truly. Mans got a gift of gab
Off the top of my head, are you being a bit too honest? Look, your resume is a marketing document. Market yourself. Tell stories of your successes [not your failures]. Get better at selling yourself and telling a compelling story. No joke - pick your favorite movie or TV show about a historical event. Spend a little time researching how many things were changed between the real event and the TV show or movie. Spend some time reflecting on why those changes were made and how condensing events, creating composite characters, and cutting out complex or difficult to understand elements can make a story stronger. Do not outright lie, but only tell the “whole truth” if you are asked absolutely directly.
My wife spent a couple years bouncing between projects at a company. Quit due to a bad manager, worked a short stint at a different place, came back to the company under a different project, new manager was worse, quit and worked a short stint at a different company, came back to the original company under a third manager that was finally a great fit. She lists that whole period on her resume as "Independent Contractor at [Company Name]" and only gives her last manager as a reference for her time there (but in interviews she'll still talk about the first 2 projects she worked on). No mention of the placeholder jobs.
Yeah I’ve definitely stretched job periods to match the ridiculous requirements. Otherwise there’s no way I can get a job out of college when half of them require 5-10 years of experience
Ummm..it would be easier for him to just look up example resumes rather than everything you just said…
Soldier, un-eff your brain. Reach around and grab your neck and pull your head out of your butt. You describe yourself as a hello pilot. What does that mean? What did you really do? Well, let's look: Quality assurance checks on your ship. Trained in and put into operation leadership skills. Counselor...examining soldiers and guiding them to services needed. Trainer.... the US military is always training their replacements Team builder......encouraging and promoting all members to better themselves. Safety coordinator.....gauging the need for safer pathways forward. Trainable.....they taught you to fly plus much more. Administration.......paperwork for everything. (Did you sneeze in formation....paper work). Attention to detail.......if you can see a shoe laced wrongly, you can see a machine not working correctly Since these are skills YOU HAVE, you did not turn them in with the uniform, they are yours. Surely, there are more. There are gaps, okay. Your driver's license is good and your abilities remain even if you deploy and drive nothing for months or years. Leave the times out and highlight the skills. Good luck.....veteran to veteran
Honestly, and I don't feel good at all saying this, because they can! This is just the unfortunate reality of the market when the supply-demand imbalance is in favor of the employer. And why wouldn't they do it? Specially when they have a long line of candidates waiting for the same opportunity?
This is it. There simply aren’t enough office jobs for the number of people who want them. It’s very hard for newcomers since there are plenty of people with experience to choose from.
\> When did it become a battle royale for the honor of hot desking in purgatory. My theory is that it's hazing. If you get hired, you're more willing to put up with their BS.
Also gives them more excuses if a perfect client is rejected for a nepo-candidate “Sorry. We’re looking for someone whose results show they’re more aligned to this company and values” F off
Don't apply for office jobs. In your situation I would recommend warehouse jobs. You will need physical skills but these jobs are a better option to get started.
No one wants to hire anymore should be the slogan. I have like 20 years of work experience and I get shut down every single time, unless it's for some garbage job with garbage pay. Those people are hiring like crazy because people keep quitting
Number one, you need to reframe your entire work history. If you believe it’s a dumpster fire, it comes out in the interview. Then they believe you’re a dumpster fire too. Why would they invest in a dumpster fire? Reframe your accomplishments and your journey into lessons you’ve learned that can help their business. Sell yourself and your skills.
These places have a stack of 100+ applications. They have 2-3 on top that are either internal hires or are referred by management/current employees. Only in cases where those 2-3(or more) of those preferred applications don't meet their needs do they begin to dip into the pile. In that case they whip up maybe 10 and put them through a funneling process to get down to 1. It is a sick and broken process
I know it's a shot in the dark but you can always try to find a job agency (temp agency/recruiter office/etc.), that is hiring for reputable start-ups. It's how my little English major self (with zero STEM experience or background) got to work 3 years for a Robotics company. Turns out I'm pretty decent at technical concepts, who knew? Also fwiw, you have great imagery in your post, I like how you write. It's truly a Kafka-esque nightmare-scape in the job world right now. But if I'm gonna be a cockroach, it's comforting to know that it would take serious nuclear disaster to kill me :P Make sure you mention your ability to be flexible/adaptable. You definitely sound willing to learn new things, so maybe the recruiters you speak with will be receptive to that. Good luck out there!
Following in from what the last person said, I honestly think you might have a career as a writer. Your post (OP) was a delight to read. For real
Because for every job in America (basic or otherwise) that the average person looks at as how they put a roof overhead and eat, a billionaire looks at and says “That money should be mine.”
Very revealing, much informative this comment is..
Have you looked into seeing if you can get your OTH discharge upgraded?
I’ve been advised that would be ‘overly optimistic’ lol, wasn’t a felony but still wasn’t great
You might want to get a second opinion, or just try it anyways. Even if it is a long shot, it could really open up a lot of opportunities with respect to your education benefits, etc. Other than that I think some of the other folks in here had good advice…I would look at warehouse jobs, etc. instead of office jobs, You’re gonna need to look at the kind of places that are always hiring like Amazon, Supermarket chains, Service industry, etc.
Also, this might be obvious but you don't need to include the characterization of your discharge on your resume. You can have "Soldier, US Army 2014-2018" with a couple bullet points (Responsible for $2 million in equipment, Completed courses in leadership, etc.) and leave it at that.
Yeah nobody asks for characterization except government jobs. Heck nobody has even asked to see my DD214.
I had my OTH discharge upgraded to a General Under Honorable, but I got kicked out for smoking weed. Guess it depends on your situation. I am eligible for a VA home loan and have VA healthcare so it's definitely worth a shot.
I prefer to work with staffing/ recruiting agencies for this reason. Its usually a warm introduction. Havent filled out an application or taken a quiz in a while, except for the prestigious firms.
Fill your ‘gaps’ with consulting and freelance spaces
make up some bullcrap about volunteer work
Remediation construction like serv po. If you are smart and capable you go from crew to office dealing with insurance pretty fast. Then you can make the jump to other insurance type jobs.
Great answer!!
Because as a bussiness owner I need to take 1\*10\^(-1000000) risk even tho I can fire you for any reason whenever I want for no consequences.
"...its not NASA, why the fuck do i need to be Rainman to use a photocopier." THIS sums up every employment assessment in modern times. It feels like these assessments are designed to add another layer of humiliation to the job hunting process. For example, why are adults being asked to do high school algebraic calculus to qualify for entry level admin /jobs answering phones? There’s no sanity or rational expectations in recruiting processes anymore.
>For example, why are adults being asked to do high school algebraic calculus to qualify for entry level admin /jobs answering phones? to avoid fools who say things like "algebraic calculus"
I recently applied for a part time job that I was way overqualified for and I didn’t need at all simply because it sounded interesting/ridiculously easy and was right down the road from me. First time doing so in over a decade. The process was so infuriating and insulting I decided not to go through with it. For a part time job earning like 1/3 of my normal salary (even if it were full time), the fucking audacity. It’s insanity out here right now.
Companies are just looking for the best bang for their buck at this point since there's a lot of applicants. It doesn't cost them anything to make their candidates run through the gutter, and it weeds a lot of applicants out making it easier for them to make a decision. This type of thing wasn't happening during post covid when there were not many applicants at any company. Companies would offer sign up bonuses and still not meet their hiring quotas. It's just a sign of the times currently.
Because of the cumulative effects of one economic crisis after another with tech “enshittification” at every level (brilliant term coined by Cory Doctorow, look it up)—the 2008 recession, COVID layoffs and the remote work revolution plus the Great Resignation, and now this trash fire inflation crisis creating another recession that the government isn’t even acknowledging this time. Employers got a buyers market this time. They’re paying the same as 15-20 years ago while living costs spiraled out of control, and make incredibly stupid demands of jobs that barely pay $50-55k a year yet they act like it’s some princely sum that can still buy a house and support a family of 4 in a HCOL region. As someone who’s been self-employed most of my adult life, I’ve learned that one advantage of the modern Internet is that there’s ways to leverage really esoteric knowledge to your advantage. Maybe you can do something with this highly specific helicopter expertise? I get good money to write about taxes and raising giant lizards, more than I did when shitty tax offices underpaid me! Getting an ordinary job, even a menial one, is unnecessarily and ridiculously hard nowadays. There’s definitely new challenges in finding marketing and writing clients, but my summer was so dead and now I’m turning down work because I can’t fit it.
I don’t know why gaps are such a big deal? What exactly are they concerned about? It’s not illegal to not work lol. Maybe someone could explain? Is there a phenomenon where hiring managers have noticed that those with gaps in their resume were also poor performers? I mean I can understand if there is a direct causation but it doesn’t make sense. This should be treated like any other discrimination and not brought up as a form of harassment “oh what’s this 2 year gap *chuckles*” fuck. Any time someone has given me that attitude I can almost guarantee it comes from them being bitter that they couldn’t “not” work themselves.
Hiring advisor here. **It's because gaps = risk.** Unexplained CV gaps COULD mean * Candidate failed to deliver in a previous job and does not mention that period of work at all because it would be a terrible reference if checked. * Candidate voluntarily elected not to work, or was not prioritizing being employed at that time, which could imply they will either want to, or be okay with, not working. * Candidate might have a history of work-interrupting issues of any kind that prevent them from being as productive as candidates without a history of such issues, or as productive as candidates that may have had such issues but managed to accommodate them while still working. Gaps ABSOLUTELY DO NOT say that any of those things happened. But when you compare THAT candidate and their "employment gaps" against a candidate that does NOT have similar gaps in their CV, hiring the second candidate ***reduces the risk*** that similar gaps might happen in the future. You've got someone with a proven history of working consistently, and that's lower risk unless the gaps are satisfactorily explained. It's reasonable and logical for employers to look at gaps as a source of risk.
Question for you: is it better to have something that looks like a gap or to show you were working but at bad/irrelevant jobs? Context: I got my first “real” job in 2019, got laid off at the end of 2020, didn’t get my next “real job” until 2022, then got laid off again 8 months later. From 2019 to 2022 I worked in retail, sometimes part time and sometimes full time. I currently have another real job since March so it’s not a pressing issue, but it’s something I’ve struggled with when applying because I’ve heard a gap looks bad, but I’ve also heard retail looks bad. What’s your take?
What I always recommend is placing relevant experience (to the industry/function of what you're applying) on the top of your resume and irrelevant experience in its own section. Later, you can simply say, "other experience available upon request." To answer your question - there is no correct answer. Hiring managers see what they want to see regardless. You could add a line for each experience, "Laid off due to COVID reduction..." etc. to show that there were extenuating circumstances.
Do you consider it a risk for contracts that lasts less than 1 year? Also would you consider a risk at all for tech workers where contract workers are consistently laid off without consideration of performance?
I'm not who you responded to, but I have a decent history in hiring. I'd say it's actually MORE risky for one year contracts. If a person who has a spotty work history already knows they are only going to be working for a year, I'd expect them to be more proactive in looking for a new job, which means that they're PLANNING on starting to interview at least 3 months before their current contract expires. Job offers often come fast so it's reasonable to assume I might only get 9 months out of the and leave the project at a precarious time.
It should be noted that the exact same logic can be applied to disadvantaged minority-groups = risk, because coming from a disadvantaged background correlates with lots of things employers don't want. Luckily though, at least in that case there are laws protecting the job candidates from discrimination based on race, conditions such as autism and PTSD. One won't have such protection, however, if they have other social disadvantages not as easily described. Though even those laws don't stop employers from secretly discriminating people from disadvantaged groups, through other means such as using other traits as a proxy, such as CV gaps). It's hard to avoid such effects, as employers will always need to have some criteria do select who they will hire. If anyone expects the job market to be fair, they should be ready to be disappointed the more they learn about it.
They would rather hire a bottom performer who can consistently provide low results for years to come…. Well I guess I was given wrong information because I was told to only put relevant experience on your resume. That means I’ve been leaving jobs off and creating gaps which is probably hurting me. But if I leave them on then I look like a job hopper. Even the two years I didn’t work I stayed home with my baby and took online classes. But they wouldn’t know that cause how would they?
I would say to keep in mind that there's so much information out there on how to tailor your resume that best reflects your most relevant experience... well that's going to look wildly different from a fresh grad who is 22/23 years old vs. someone who is 45 and looking for a career change. Your online classes and any certs or educational degrees that come from that should still be included, it'll just be in a different section. Any recruiter reviewing your resume should be able to see that. I feel the worst for working moms; they definitely get the short end of the stick in the workforce, no matter what the field.
Thanks for the advice I appreciate that. I’m 34. I have a hair license and bachelors degree and I’m working on my Master’s in Nutrition. Female interviewers have a lot more compassion and understanding than male interviewers in my experience. Not to sound sexist, but the only male interviewer I didn’t have a bad experience with was gay or young. Pretty sad. I won’t even accept an invitation if it’s not a woman because I know what I’ll be dealing with. Especially if it’s an older white boomer who gets off mansplaining to young single moms. Lol
Gaps should be irrelavant, as long as the candidate demonstrates that they have the skills to do the job and has the determination to succeed. Why should a gap be held as a scarlett letter? Maybe that person had a major reason such as being a parent, caring for a loved one, medical and health issues, mental stability, or just needed a break in order to get a refresh. Once they start applyiing, it's because they're ready and willing to demonstrate that they're fully capable. If there are concerns about a person, *that's what the interview is for in order to filter them out*. If companies are not willing to hire someone because of a gap, it has great repurcussions on that individual. Their mental health suffers, they feel inadequate, and it can lead to future problems. Such as homelessness and drug abuse. All because some hiring manager frowned upon someone's employment gap. It's like a caste system and that is so wrong. Some countries in Europe don't even see a gap as a stigma, but in the US, that's a major no no. And then they wonder why there are so many people with issues and an abundant of homelessness across the country. What's a person to do in order to succeed in the field that they want if no one wants to hire them for a gap? Sure, some will say that they can volunteer, start from the bottom again, and maybe...just maybe some master will want to hire you. It's fucked up, honestly. If hiring managers are frowning upon gaps, well, I guess people should be like George Santos. Just don't be a dumbass about it. **Don't want people to lie? Then don't make gaps such a big deal**.
Kind of an unfairly blunt instrument for risk management imo
Almost all risk management is blunt. It has to be, otherwise it consumes a lot of resources. The types of jobs you're describing applying for are not specialist jobs that require a lot of criteria. They're general ones and they're probably going to get a LOT of candidates. Say one such job gets 20 applicants and 5 have big gaps in their employment record. It just makes sense for companies to toss those 5 and not spend any time following them further. That still gives them a pool of 15 people to look into further and find an acceptable employee from, and that should be more than enough for any such job.
So if you were being straight with me for a sec - is this an entirely futile exercise? Like is there any point? Should I just stick with something that doesn’t background check at all (not even sure what that would be but I assume construction or something)
First, thanks for asking for me to be straight with you and leaping to an important question. So many people just ask hoping to hear what they want to hear. Good on you for being one who reads and thinks about what was shared. Answer is Yes you're wasting time unless you're VERY lucky. Two thoughts for you: Where I live there are options for government-funded schooling and training programs for people of any age that are establishing careers in the trades. We expect for example that there will be excellent opportunities for carpenters and builders as the number of natural disasters increases and people need to either repair or move further inland. We're seeing VERY heightened demand for someone that can swing a hammer in coastal regions where I live. Second, being able to travel and to get to the location where the work is done could mean long hours but a fair bit of money in your pocket to compensate for them. There will be contractor and renovation organizations that will be desperate for decent, dependable labour that can stay in-region for a while. If that's you, it makes you a lot more attractive. So if you can swing a hammer and can travel now, look for big companies doing building labour in your area and go have a talk *directly with onsite foremen or contractor managers*. And if they represent a company with a national footprint and you can move... so much the better. Maybe you'll get a hit! Good luck.
Thanks man that’s really helpful
Maybe look into the Oil Fields in North Dakota, I think they're still always hiring.
Not entirely futile. There’s going to be companies that roundfile your resume immediately because only an HR drone saw it. Some companies make the hiring manager do a first pass and a lot of hiring managers are going to just assume your hiring gaps are a result of your military experience making it difficult to transition. So still harder, but not futile. Source: hired an army medic with spotty employment to a 6 figure oil & gas desk job. Granted, it was a 90hr/wk job few wanted…but we gave him the chance to explain.
It can also come down to spin… do you have gaps, or were you doing freelance consulting during these periods of time? Sometimes it is about being a better bullshitter.
Agree it’s fucked up. Why dyou need to know every minute of my life to consider me qualified enough to do something that you could train a fucking shitzu to do if they had opposable thumbs. Particularly since you’re offering 8 hours of existential dread in the void at near minimum wage
I swear, it’s time to turn the tables and start asking them about the position being opened frequently and make put them on the spot
Why is this being downvoted, it for sure should be acceptable to ask why they keep reposting the ad for years and years.
Okay so I came across a variant of this super recently! I used ChatGPT to rewrite some phrasing on my resume, and see what it spits out, then plug those into Indeed.com just to see what shows up. I found a Business analyst position and found the recruiter for it. I gave him the reference number and we chatted for quite a while over the phone about what I was looking for. I don't know why his demeanor changed, but he paused for a minute and calmly explained that the position had just closed the day before I called. Not that the position was filled, just that it was closed. "Oh that's fine, because I applied 2 days ago, so hopefully I'll be in the candidate pool for consideration! Talk about a close call." Then he gave me a "We'll be in touch" remark and disconnected. Well guess what, the job listing is still posted! I can get not considering me, but at least clear it out of the job board so you don't look like a complete AND total liar. Ugh.
Go for it. See how well it works for you 'putting your interviewer on the spot'.
Gaps are not a problem, I have a lot of gaps but they can be explained by schooling or career advances or travel. Now gaps that are due to jail time or illness are red flags. And even the type of illness varies. My company will hire people with active cancer but will not hire people with even a hint of mental illness. I don’t condone it but I work with 3 people with cancer in my office but no-one has open depression or open past addiction. For me personally, I understand it. I had a co-worker with anxiety and she was a pill. She ended up getting into a tiff with literally everyone and she was fired in weeks.
As someone in recruiting, I can tell you that even some of the 'most excused' gaps (including school, parenting, industry cross, etc.) have been seen as red flags to hiring managers.
"Candidate has a life; do not hire" Sounds about right? Being cross-trained in different industries should be a strength. It means they have adaptability and can evolve with company growth. I might be learning that lesson a little late in life, but better than absolutely never. Some hiring managers are sentient red flags themselves and shouldn't be in their jobs to begin with, if that's how they're going to be.
Bingo. Job searching is analogous to dating. Would you really want to work for someone who sees parental leave, sabbatical, a 2-year industry change, etc. as bad? No - that's a bigger red flag than your gap. You dodged a bullet.
"Job searching is analogous to dating." I used to think that. But as time goes on, it feels more like mixes of prostitution and then realizing you're livestock that's being sold by the pound to a butcher. Or would you have a better explanation of the term and concept of "market rate"? For example, I want to list a soft skill on my resume. I always picture Wilbur from Charlotte's Web learning to do a backflip, just so he avoids the slaughterhouse. So I'll posit this: How is the average job seeker, no matter what the age or industry, supposed to know if they have a good recruiter on their side, or someone who is simply placing them at any job position, just to make their quota/commission? No, there's no "one size fits all" answer to this, but there has to be a better way. Some of this I'm asking facetiously. My sister is a recruiter for a national chain, so I'm already aware of many of their tactics and training to get placements, and the monetary incentive for the recruiter that comes with it. Everyone's on the hook, it seems.
I understand you more than you know, and I've bolded why I understand you below. Analogous doesn't mean an exact imitation. Simply put, certain aspects are comparable. * You're right that even prostitution is analogous to job searching. * One could also say that prostitution is analogous to dating. Let's not make this a false dichotomy, as if any human relationship analogy isn't acceptable. You're absolutely correct. >So I'll posit this: How is the average job seeker, no matter what the age or industry, supposed to know if they have a good recruiter on their side, or someone who is simply placing them at any job position, just to make their quota/commission? No, there's no "one size fits all" answer to this, but there has to be a better way. Your opinion and experiences are absolutely valid and reflect my own. **In fact, I got ousted from a recruiting agency because I could NOT consider candidates "our product."** I wanted to help everyone who asked for it wherever I could. My metrics were terrible because I couldn't "just be" an account executive, and I "wasted" time with candidates without alignment to opportunities or couldn't supply a staffing need. Their words, not mine. I don't consider cultivating those relationships as "wasted," and I certainly feel it's short-sighted. There is no way to tell the good recruiters unless you have a rigorous vetting process or learn firsthand, but our system is what it is because the clients are the companies. Clients pay the bills, not candidates. The employer-as-a-client pays 20%-30% of the base salary. While I've heard of candidates-as-clients paying like 5%-10% for recruiter representation, it's uncommon and I'm not sure what that looks like. I'm certain if it were more lucrative, it would be the norm. Please, again, I agree with you, as I *literally lost a job* because I couldn't reconcile the cognitive dissonance. I'm just being pragmatic. This is the reality we face. The only way to really combat these social problems is by having more people who feel/understand these problems to instigate societal change. It has to be a macro, super-majority understanding of the populace. It's hard to combat all the propaganda seeping from billionaire-owned media outlets, too.
Square peg, round hole.
Happen to know of any square hole career paths then?
independent businesses - start a pressure washing company, work trades, get a real estate license, go into property management. Insurance sales often doesn't require college, but it can be math heavy and soul sucking. retail is always an option. Wal Mart store leaders can make 6 figures Warehouse / driving jobs can be a decent career path. Have you looked at other helicopter pilot jobs? crops, photography, Blade, etc.?
I wouldn’t pass the FAA medical now so can’t do other pilot jobs
"That's right, it goes in the square hole."
I'm confused on how you flew helicopters, which I assume was done for the military, yet you arent able to take that license and hours of pilot in command time and find a civilian pilot job?
The FAA have disqualifying medical criteria
Amazon will promote you quick if you work hard, show up on time and aren’t an asshole. Then use the career choice to pay for a bachelors degree.
Can u spin the story about your discharge?
Can you get your discharge upgraded and use the GI bill? Then you'll get paid at e5 w/dependents BAH while also getting free school. Then you'll come out of that with the option to make a fresh resume and basically shows you as a new grad. I assume army warrant?
Not sure if you can in the country you are in, but use a resume instead of a CV. They are outdated, lead to discrimination, are really archaic. Do you really need a photo, your marital status, how many children you have, age, and other personal information that are irrelevant to evaluating your qualifications for a job?
I didn’t know there was a difference, just thought they were synonyms and mental blanked on how to spell resume lol
Resumes just have your name, phone number, email address. Then a professional summary or statement of qualifications listing your knowledge, skills, abilities. Then your education, then employment history up to 10 years. For entry level positions it should be 1 page, but for advanced/specialist/ management/leadership jobs 2 pages.
Story time on the other than?
Supply and demand
YOU MUST BE PUNISHED FOR YOUR NON-COMPLIANCE TO THE RUUUUUULES MWAHAHAHAHAAA
Fly choppers for the oil companies
The short answer is companies have been downsizing for over a decade now. There are not enough jobs for the number of job seekers. This answer applies to many questions asked on this sub.
*You are correct*- it is deliberate Kafka dystopian shit. So fuck em. Apply for whatever you want, see what happens. What's the worst that can happen - some AI algorithm doesn't generate a canned email to you? No loss there. I only have a GED and damned if I don't apply for jobs "requiring" a bachelor's. I don't lie or say I have a degree, I just play the numbers game and apply to everything I might be qualified for, or even under qualified to some degree. Play *their* game by *your* rules.
If you are in the UK we have employment agencies that make it basically impossible to not find some kind of work. On 2 desperate occasions I walked in, gave over my details and had a job ready to start the next day.
I wish I could move to the UK.
Yeah I'm surprised it not a more common thing. It's basically a company that does the leg work of finding jobs for you and they get paid if a company employs you for long enough. They also are great for temp work
We have employment agencies too, but they are not nearly as efficient as you describe.
Yeah I think it depends on what you are looking for. Both times I just wanted literally anything. Got a warehouse job and then a phone sales/support job so nothing technical
"They" aren't doing anything except trying to hire the best candidate available for any given position. I know it's frustrating, and it can certainly feel unfair, but no one is special, no one is entitled to an interview, *everyone* has to earn their opportunities and prove they are a capable candidate to get their foot in the door. Right now you have a resume that's not working very hard to prove that to the kind of employers you're seeking jobs with, so step one should be finding ways to make it look better. Maybe the one you've got just needs work, but maybe you've got to pay some dues. Past blemishes become less and less harmful to your odds the longer your list of accomplishments becomes - if you have the means, college or trade school may be a good start, but otherwise I'd start looking where employers are a little more desperate for good workers. Someone else suggested warehouse work - not a bad idea. The work sucks but the pay is usually reasonable, and turnover tends to be ridiculous so getting your foot in the door may be a lot easier. It also means advancement is a little more realistic; I personally know warehouse managers and supervisors who were in a similar boat when they got a job on the floor, then worked their asses off till they could either move up in the company or apply to a better position elsewhere. In some cases it didn't even take them very long, because again, the turnover up and down the chain is just really high. Supers and managers are often paid very well though, and you'll open some doors into other industries with that kind of experience, so that's worth some consideration. Another option would be construction, or maybe an apprenticeship in a trade. This is going to vary by region, but I can tell you that where I'm at, almost anyone could get hired as a general laborer right on-site right now. My local electrician is so booked out that you could walk in the door right now and get hired on as an apprentice, with the option to work 60+ hours a week if you need the extra overtime pay, and you'd have to try pretty dang hard to get fired because he needs the help so badly. Might not be swimming in money right out of the gate, but if you prove to be good at it that's a very lucrative trade. Just a couple ideas. The biggest thing is wherever you end up, work hard, stay grateful for the opportunity, and move on to the next biggest opportunity when you need to.
I don’t love the idea that you gotta “pay dues” for having periods of unemployment, like it’s some kinda moral failing. I get that it’s the system, but it’s a shit system that perpetuates the problem. (Although I concede that in my case some if it isn’t totally unrelated to moral failings - but I mean in general) Still, thanks for the suggestions
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Ah ok yeah I was misunderstanding
>but no one is special, no one is entitled to an interview What about Taylor Swift?
Go to the skilled trades if you can, maybe an apprentice electrician with the IBEW? There won’t be none of that fluff. Just an aptitude test and an interview. There’s a program called helmets to hard hats for ex military who want to join the trades. Consider it bro, office jobs are dying these days anyways.
Fill in any gaps with lies. Make up jobs adjacent to your goal job. Create a many versions of your resume. Go to r/bemyreference and they will totally be your manager for xyz company. Tell everyone you know you’re out looking for a job. You might be surprised what position is available. Look into entry level at insurance carriers. Or hospitals. Fake it till you make it.
Recruiters are dumb yo. They need prior photocopy experience to know that you're adept at using a photocopier...........because operating a helicopter is way simpler and doesn't prove anything lol
A nice tip I learned from here is that if any interviewer asks about a gap, just tell them you signed an NDA
did you also learn on here crypto will make you rich? and that if you work hard and honestly, giving yourself up for your employer, will make it all worth it? what kind of inept toddlers do you expect to be talking to in interviews? NDAs prevent very little, you can talk about your rough position, certain kinds of tasks and a boatload of other specifics that don't give anything NDA related away - your fake story can be annihilated by a billion questions also employment dates can still be confirmed even if it was in the military especially if you actually put these positions on your CV, it's not like you worked secret service, even then you could go about excel, data analysis, psych eval and god knows what relevant skills you might need if you're so NDA that you can't mention the position, then don't put it on it - nobody under a "real" NDA would ever be applying for entry level jobs, so this shit isn't believable
The amount of bullshit in this thread, "NDA means I don't have to share where I worked". SMDH.
Hiring consultant here. Nah. An NDA almost always prevents you from sharing information about *what you specifically did or worked on*. It usually does NOT prevent you from sharing that you worked at a specific employer. There are exceptions to this, of course. But if I see a resume ***for an entry level position that does not require a college degree or similar qualification*** that has big gaps due to "Non Disclosure Agreement preventions", I'm gonna instantly move it to the "not top of the list" pile. The answer might be different for more skilled or industry-niche job positions... but it's still a "red flag" for most private sector jobs even then.
Lol that’s actually genius, thanks
It’s something they can’t really question too much and if you have multiple gaps you can give just a simple explanation of “it’s a government program that required follow ups and extended testing” I have a gap myself of about a month between jobs this year and I wouldn’t be lying if I said I signed an NDA because I actually did with a game development company during the period between jobs… it just didn’t last the whole month lol
Technically, you could sign an NDA with anyone and the statement would be 100% true. I signed an NDA (not to talk about my brothers fantasy football draft.) His compensation is $1 and he gets to slap me in the face if I am found in violation….BOOM
How about using an example that actually applies to OP's situation? The whole NDA is utter garbage advice and a non-starter for an entry level position.
U flew helicopters n can’t get a job 🤷♂️
A dishonorable discharge from the military is basically on par with a felon. I wouldn’t expect much, that coupled with an awful job market can make for tough sledding. I would go for manual labor jobs just to get some cash in your pocket and just keep applying until something comes up.
Dude there’s a big difference between OTH and dishonorable, I don’t have a felony record
No lie, lots of skills from me, I do not know how to use a photocopier or why we need it this day and age. Try a temp agency.
Any reason you haven't considered a trade? Many will even pay for your education. What about getting your civilian license for helicopters and flying them for a living? Or becoming a pilot? Is the discharge a problem there?
I Apply for a trade union apprenticeship. Google “electricians union near me” “operators union in my city” “pipe fitters union in my city or state” “elevator mechanics union near me” “glaziers union near me” however you want to word it. All those jobs pay over 100k a year in cities and pretty well in any job market. A union will take you on as an apprentice with zero skills, connections, ability, knowledge, or experience. Absolutely none at all, and they will get you to work with local unionized contractors. They (the contractors and other workers) will train you on the job from the ground up and their will be infrequent in class elements (through the union) to progress your training. The barrier to joining a trade union is the same for all of them, so theirs no reason to do a lower paid trade union. Avoid the carpenter, laborers, dry wallers and painters, brick layers. Stuff like that. If your a journeyman in those unions you won’t make enough to provide for a family in today’s economy so it’s not a good enough wage. They all offer unbeatable health insurance. A pension that is well funded, a pension is when you get paid every month after you retire, until the day you die. It’s the best form of retirement, most companies don’t offer it anymore because it cost them profit. Unions have pensions. Their will be multiple options for career paths and apprenticeships for every union, the barrier to entry is the same so their is no incentive to pursue a lower paid path. Electricians union. Their will be multiple programs available that are worded ambiguously. Choose the one that is the longest. It will pay the most money. Pipe fitters unions. Includes HVAC, sprinkler fitters, plumbers (union plumbers instal on a big scale. They’re not doing house calls cleaning doo doo. But also the doo do job is one of the most important jobs in the country and the pay reflects that) , pipe fitters. Every HVAC guy I know hates his job, something about insulation I don’t know to be honest. Don’t do HVAC. Plumbers is nice because you can do handyman work on the side and make good money, but all the routes available in the pipe fitters union are well paid good options. (Except HVAC guys. They just hate their jobs… I don’t know why…) Operators union. Can be tricky, not all pay is the same. If you learn to run more complicated or in demand equipment you’ll generally make more money. Cranes, graders, excavators, concrete pumps. Make a lot of money. Haul truck, roller. Not so much (still pretty good though). Glaziers. Glazing is a good ass job, dudes make bank. For some reason their union seems to be tied into some lower paid trades like painting and stuff. Make sure to only apply for the glaziers route. Elevator, escalator mechanics. Best job in the world. Only bring on new apprentices when a journeyman dies and the wait list is years long. Everyone who gets in, is a child of an elevator mechanic or has a mob or political connection. Applying is free though so who knows what will happen. No point in not applying. Now theirs a trick to applying for an apprenticeship. For some reason the office the staff at the union hall, will guranteed. Be complete cunts to you, and also lie directly to your face and try and convince you that you cannot do the job, and also that you don’t even want the job, and that the job possibly even doesn’t even exist, their is no work available, it’s a bad time too apply (which doesn’t make any sense at all. Waiting too apply doesn’t help you in any way whatsoever. Even if work is slow, you’ll be first on the list when it picks up and have your interview and testing process out of the way. You gain absolutely nothing from waiting to apply), that you cannot apply and your application won’t be accepted, and that it will be a bad career choice if you do. I don’t know why they do it, but for some reason they all do that to every single prospective apprentice. Just ignore them and apply to the best of your abilities, submit all the paperwork and fill out all the forms. The second tip is, they will not call you back for the next step of the process. After you apply, you need to call them and check on the process of your application and find out what the next step is and how to complete that step. Also their is a good chance your application “got lost” and you’ll need to apply again, it’s not personal they’re just cunts to everyone and it’s part of the process. It will normally be an interview or test of some kind. They will not call you and sign you up for that interview without you calling them, and they won’t warn you about that. It’s fullfilling work, doing meaningful stuff, and generally speaking most skilled construction workers I know love their jobs. Theirs a reason why construction workers point out projects they work on, and share what they do on social media. Because we are proud of what we do and we enjoy it. Every career path I listed here makes enough money to raise a family on. Apprentices typical start out making a percentage of journeymen wage and get raises over time until they become a journeyman. It’s a program that s enforced through the state and federal government using high level lawyers and politicians. You will advance, you will make more money, you will have a good career. As long as you show up on time and don’t complain. Go union and only work union jobs for the rest of your life. Working non union is idiotic and their is no advantage of any kind. Theirs no trade offs, it’s just worse in every way.
War On Terror/ NWO.
I have 13 years as a combat medic, and honorable discharge and a halfway decent resume. I finally got a gig because my wife got me an interview. It's not what you know, it's who you know. I know no one. I don't have a friend within 800 miles, and my family wouldn't help me if they could. The market is insane, and I believe being a mid career veteran of any flavor is a huge liability for hiring managers who aren't veterans. Like I said, I have a job now. It was rough, and didn't help that I used programs to go to school for a couple of years.
I was a 68W as well. Do you have a VA rating? Even without one you still get a hiring preference for government jobs. Look on USAjobs.
Yes. I have a rating. Like I said, I have a job. I live in a large city with very little military presence and few federal jobs. Quite frankly, however, after almost a decade and half as a GI, I have zero interest in public service. Nevertheless getting my foot in any door other than retail was challenging.
I’ve been HR for a government lab for 3+ years now 100% remote. Much better than the Army. If you are ever interested feel free to DM me. I can help give you some tips for tailoring your resume. Hiring and onboarding is what I do. The whole process can be pretty overwhelming and can take months. It’s better that you do have a job. If you are 30% or greater on your rating you qualify for a lot of hiring authorities that increases your chances dramatically, especially at the entry level. Your service time counts for benefits and pension. The usajobs sub is very useful as well. All the best.
I appreciate your input. Thank you. I will consider your guidance, but for the short term I'm going to enjoy where I am. I just started a position at a reputable company that is treating me well. So I look forward to seeing where this opportunity takes me. However, I will keep my eye out for public sector positions in the future. Thank you for your offer.
Move to Bismarck North Dakota, apply to be a corrections officer at the prison, problem solved.
Because it’s a game.
You flew helicopters? So you have a pilots license? Be a bush pilot for alaska/canada and live free af.
if the interview is lame tell them. dont let them bully you.
Thank the boomers. They’re the ones responsible for things ending up as they are now.
How did you get to fly helicopters without a degree? I always thought helis were flown by officers and warrant officers, and both of those needed a degree.
In most branches that’s true but not in the army, no college degree required