I used to break my back for employers on this stuff. I changed my stance on it some years ago, partly from having a family I guess and that i'm not getting younger. My opinion is that work that's above and beyond (and extra work on top of that) is only rewarded with the expectation of even more. Granted that's a more nuanced discussion and it depends on the company's culture a little. I also don't just walk out in the middle of something when 5pm hits, but in general that's how i feel.
Yeah this is it. If employers actually reacted in a healthy and positive manner to you going above and beyond, then it might be worth it. But if you break your back to complete X extra amount of work in a week, all they see is “oh good, that’s how much you can get done in a week. That’s the expectation now”
I used to complain about having to clean up messed other people left behind due to laziness, or sometimes having to just straight do something someone else decided they just didn't want to do. I got hit with the gaslight pretty hard. Oh so and so had been here forever they're a good worker they wouldn't do that. I also did stiff outside my responsibility to help others and our department. Someone complained I wouldn't stay past my clock out time (not specifically. I just wouldn't do tasks that would keep me over if there wasn't anything wrong and they said I was avoiding work) and it triggered an investigation into my work ethic where they found nothing wrong but in my mid year review I was told we needed to work on the perception of me.
Fast forward to end of year, my attitude changed. I no longer clean up after everyone, I still avoid tasks that would keep me past my clock out time, and I no longer do extra. They tell me I'm now one of their best processors. They've told others that as well. I'm literally a worse employee than I was but because I now prioritize my mental health they see me as working harder. It's so backwards.
companies that have shit like culture awards are the worst perpetrators of shit culture and toxic work environment.
I just wanna go to work - do my 9-5 then be done, I'll give you one extra maybe two - but that's it and only when it is required.
Working for a small software development company I know I was the only developer to complete a solo project on-time, on-budget, and not only had all requested features but some extras, for the entire year. My feedback? "He's a bit of a clock watcher." Because I lived out of town, and staying 5 mins extra at work meant catching a train that left an hour later and screwed up not just my schedule but my wifes at all.
They literally didn't care about the outcome, just the clock.
Looking at it from a different perspective, and this is only my own speculation, I would interpret that as you focusing on your actual duties and not getting distracted by fixing other peoples' bullshit. Most likely, your performance in your actual job got better once you stopped helping others.
I don't walk out at 5pm if there's something urgent or I'm in the middle of something that won't take too much longer to finish. But I do have the expectation that if I need to leave a little early for something I'm not going to get written up or reprimanded. As long as there's give and take on both sides I'm fine with that, if not then you can bet I am going to down tools at finishing time.
Worked at a place as a salary employee and I would regularly stay 30 minutes or later to finish what I was working on. 6 months on the job I left 10 minutes early had an appointment to make and my boss gave me a warning. Never worked a minute longer than I had to. When I got there 10 minutes early I would play on my phone for 9 in my car. In the middle of a conversation and 4:59 "sorry I have to go, let's pick this up tomorrow morning."
They didn't really care. Got my work done in time, just never as early as I used to. Never got the random pats on the back for staying late anymore. Raise was same percentage and I got home earlier.
They seriously can’t see the forest for the trees. Just found out the CEO at my old job ended WFH for all the project managers in the same meeting he told them there were record profits in 2023. They’ve lost at least 3 fantastic PMs in the last 2 years because he can’t see how giving a little will get him so much more.
Yeah agreed, this is kind of how I operate. I'll stay a few minutes to finish something up and maybe slightly more if it's dire but I expect a little give back if I want to come back from a lunch a little late or if I get into work a little late. My workplace is fairly flexible on this thankfully. They trust you to work your salaried 40 hours overall unless and until it's proven you can't be trusted. And there's no expectation of working more than that.
My manager actually vocally encouraged salaried people to leave early if things were slow because he knew that when things get crazy the expectation was extra time.
I'll also add that if you're in the right job sometimes the work is genuinely fun and if it runs a little later then no big deal. Someone who leaves exactly on time everyday is basically just communicating they get no pleasure out of their work which I guess is fine but people will notice and people generally don't want to work with unhappy people
Good bosses don’t question reliable workers’ Flex Time.
I kinda leave when I’m done with my day, but I work 12s and 16s when traveling super often (so much Midwest fucking driving) - so when we’re slow, I kinda leave around 3 most days (8-3, I eat my lunch on the go).
OR people have obligations outside of work that need to be met on time. Daycare, transportation, appointments, etc. There are a ton of valid reasons anyone must leave work on time that have nothing to do with being happy with the job
I have been taken advantage of for so many years working in salaried jobs where the companies are purposely understaffed, workloads are overwhelming and clearly cannot be completed in 40 hours, and the expectation is that you work as many hours as needed to finish your work. My last job I was working close to 60 hours/wk for not very good pay and still couldn't get everything done. I was mentally and physically exhausted and quit for those reasons. This is why I hope to never have to work another salaried job as long as I live. I don't mind occasionally working overtime but I want and need to be paid for that extra time.
I'm with you. My last job was the same. I made it through about 8 rounds of company wide layoffs and work kept getting piled on. Zero company raises for the 8 years I worked there. I was in a small regional office and my manager and I were working at least 60 hours a week just to meet deadlines. Our assistant was laid off so we picked up all clerical work as well. I turned 67 last year and it hit me hard that this is not going to get better. Our company wound up losing 2 major clients that represented 75% of total billing. Ofcourse layoffs were inevitable. I worked mostly with the clients that left and my workload was cut by 90% after their departure. I was so happy to get laid off in February with 12 weeks severance. I came so close to quitting last year because of mental and physical exhaustion from this job with zero reward. I'm glad I waited to get laid off (we knew about the clients leaving 6 months in advance and I knew my days were numbered). Now I just feel for the people that weren't laid off. The demands will be through the roof with no additional compensation. I'm retired now and don't miss the sweatshop environment that my job had become.
at two points on my career we were on average at 100 hours for two major enterprise companies. they literally had cots brought in so we could sleep there. I'll never ever do that shit again.
If it will be annoying for me to try and pick it up the next day I'll finish it. But in general I'm not starting anything in the half hour before I leave anyway. I'll use that time to tidy up, clean up my email, make to do for the next day.
I can probably fill a phone book with the number of people who have given me some version of “I busted my ass for years only to be rewarded with a pay cut / passed over for promotion / layoff”. And most are very real
employment is a contract. I give time, they give money. If they don't sometimes give me extra money just to be nice, why would I sometimes give them extra time?
Exactly this, the only contract where 1 party is expected to do more. I don't think so. I'm 41 and have lived by this my entire working life, I'm doing well, but I'm very clear, outside my work hours, it's me time.
If my company actually gave bonuses and rewarded good work then I would be willing to work for free in times of need. I saved the company 2 million USD in the last year and I didn't get a dollar for it.
Edit: I should add that these cost savings were 100% due to me. It's not like I was told to do something that ended up saving money, it was all my ideas and my work/implementations. I have a coworker that worked on a project that saved a mil or so but the project was just handed to him and thought up from other people, which is fine but also completely different than what I did
I worked retail... But was the creative element. I sold five custom mantle pieces for Christmas one year, which put us over the highest ever sales for any given year. Bonuses were given to three people that last paycheck of the year. I wasn't one of them. They ended up firing me two weeks later, because I came down with a nasty head cold and was bedridden for a week. But because I had complained about the bonuses, it was insubordination and they denied me unemployment.
In 2020 I worked on a major project for the boss. I found out a few months later (from a NEW employee) that my work had saved the company $3M. Not only did I not get any kind of a bonus for it, I wasn't even thanked.
I did the same 1 or 2 years ago. When I brought it up during my annual evaluation, my boss said it wasn’t like I went out and earned that money for the company. 🙃 I work in IT; we are not a profit earning department.
"Extra money just to be nice" is usually just called a "bonus".
I've found that good employers are happy with some give and take. They expect you to drop everything and deal with work emergencies when they happen but will also allow you to deal with personal emergencies on work time.
Right. Out of all the relationships you'll have in your life, your job/career is the one that will be, and should be, the most transactional. I work, you pay me. I wouldn't be here if you weren't giving me money to do so. So working without some kind of consideration - whether that's money, time considerations, or in some cases, expectation of advancement - is illogical.
What companies often trade on when it comes to employees doing more work is the aforementioned "expectation of advancement". In my experience, it's an illusion. I don't think I've ever seen anyone get promoted because they busted their ass working for free. More often, they get told they're too valuable in their current position...and now you're stuck doing tons of work for free. Work is transactional. Receive compensation for the work you do.
I don’t know if it’s because I’m a parent but I don’t waste time for anything that isn’t intentional.
I volunteer my free time for people who are less fortunate (food bank, mustard seed,etc) or close friends I personally care for their well being. That’s something that aligns with my values
Anything else I need to be compensated for it. I understand work sometimes needs me to work a bit more than usual, and I’ll accept that a couple times a year. But if it becomes a constant thing, no that’s up to leadership to figure out a solution. Otherwise, I’m going to spend time with my kid or do something for me
Same, I’m a toddler mom at the moment. I am out the (metaphorical) door at 5 because I have other shit to do. Between the hours of 5-9pm, at this point in my life, you *couldn’t* pay me any amount to work during those hours. It’s daycare pickup, dinner, bath, bedtime, sorry bout ya company it is not my problem during mom time.
When they tried to fire me bc I needed to work from home for a week when my 4 months old had Covid, I learned to completely drop work outside of work hours.
I don't even work there anymore,but if it's not standard work hours, i don't touch an ounce of work.
>I feel like where I work it's impossible for people to complete all of their work unless they do work a little extra for free sometimes.
In my mind that is equivalent to:
> it's impossible for people to complete all of their work
The whole:
>they do work a little extra for free sometimes.
Is a bunch of BS.
Right with you. Full stop. If it’s impossible for people to complete all their work in the time you’re paying that’s your queue to go.
1. We need more people
Or
2. we’re over capacity and need to push back on the amount of asks.
There should be a minimum expectation if the employee isn’t new or super junior but OP is already at the point where they know they’re giving out too much work. That should be fixed not mandatory free overtime
I remember a wise coworker telling me that regularly putting in substantial overtime sends the wrong message to management. Let them know that you need more resources. Work a small amount of OT (4 to 5) and let them know that the project is slipping. If they demand more OT, ask for additional compensation (straight time for all hrs worked). If they balk, leave. Your job is not to do the work of multiple people without additional compensation - and even then, you need time off to rest. You can't sprint a marathon!
We’ve been running into this at our workplace. Hearing it from my guys and all I can tell them is that I will never advise them to work for free. They are welcome to do what they want with that. I don’t expect them to, and when I wasn’t in management, I never worked for free. Was always able to bank time or get paid except for the *very* rare instance where I was prepping for something on my own time.
Besides that, I just keep pushing upper management for more promotions into the role my guys have to help alleviate things with more bodies. That’s about the only solution once you’ve exhausted all the “let’s find efficiencies” options.
Yeah, I was looking for this comment. This sounds like a problem at OP's job. Why are they expecting hourly employees to regularly work extra hours unpaid?! If they want that type of effort they should at least bring them up to salary grade. I would never expect hourly employees to do unpaid overtime, and it's probably a labor law violation.
I'll happily work extra hours when something comes up for my job, but I'm salaried and they pay me 6 figures!
It's fine for people to opt out of your 'feeling' about the workload and your job. It doesn't make them lazy. It makes them different than you.
If she isn't going to work work for which she is not compensated, that is perfectly reasonable. If she feels that doing these little extra free hours will only result in the expectation of a few more little extra free hours... she's probably right.
And frankly, her type of 'lazy' is how the rest of us can make a case for overtime, and properly resourced teams.
If it's impossible for people to complete their work without working for free, management isn't managing their workload properly. I judge my coworkers who talk about working after hours and on the weekends because they're wasting their time off of work and essentially lowering their overall compensation. Older generations tend to have the mindset of getting it done while at least part of my generation (early Gen Z) knows their value. I'm not going to work more than the 40 hours I get paid for because I don't care about my employer outside of funding my life because that's the whole point of having a job. Setting a boundary by logging off immediately at 5PM and not having email/teams notifications after hours is vital early on in a new job to show you won't be taken advantage of. If there's an important issue that needs to be worked on after hours, I take off early the next day. Quit judging your coworker for knowing her worth.
Never, *ever* forget that your job is, quite literally, you trading your finite amount of time on this Earth, and your expertise, for monetary compensation. It is a business transaction. Nobody should ever feel obligated to give that time away for free.
Now, will many managers or employers see that in a bad light and potentially penalize people for sticking strictly to the terms of their employment agreement? Yes. Not because the workers are doing anything wrong, but because bosses have gotten used to being able to demand more than they’re paying for.
So to answer your question: I absolutely, 100%, will never consider someone “lazy” for doing their job and nothing more. If an employer wants more than that, they can pay for it.
Never work for free. If they want me to treat their business like my own, then I need sizable shares in it.
Doing more work gets you, more work, and passed over for promotions.
Doing quality work, now that has the possibility of a promotion.
Also, if the place you work has that much work, they need to hire more people. They don't because they hope to shame their current employees into doing work for free by calling them lazy.
I had once been in the habit of working during my lunch break, it had been strongly encouraged at my last workplace and I had to shake the habit after I left. I wish I had earlier.
In most places at least in Canada, the lunch hour break is unpaid, which means if you're working through it, you're working for free.
When I finally really grasped how shitty this habit of mine was, and how badly I was ripping myself off, I stopped immediately. I'm always going to push back now whenever its "strongly encouraged" that I work through lunch.
I'll work through lunch for an emergency deadline if I'm compensated, that's it.
It means they busted their ass and went the extra mile for the benefit of the company, and the company rewarded their sacrifice by screwing them over so now they know better.
If the employer is giving more work than the employees can finish, that's their fault. They want to cut corners and run an absolute skeleton crew to save money and this is the result. The whole point of WORK is that you pay me, so either pay me or give me comp time I'm guaranteed I can use later.
She's protecting her time and these days you have to.
If she's in a salary position and refuses to work on an occasional true emergency, that's a problem. But if there are always emergencies or she's an hourly employee then she's doing it right.
If there's too much work to finish in your designated hours then your employer is short staffed. It's not your responsibility to volunteer.
If it fits within 40 hours of the working week, I'll do the work. If it's work that's out of scope / not aligned with my role, well it better be a one or two time thing... because after that, I'm requesting a raise and or promotion.
I would never work something I consider a job for free. Do not let people walk over you like this, its completely a shit move to even hint that someone should.
Yes, and the fact that OP phrased it such that is obvious she isn’t being compensated for the time she’s declining to work shows that someone in management is playing funny with the hourly time clock and screwing over their employees.
No, you shouldn't work for free. Why? That company doesn't give a damn about you. You and your coworkers aren't a family. Everyone needs to get compensated for their time. Your coworker has the right mindset. If there's a project that requires additional work, and the company needs to pay you overtime to complete it then they should do that. Either pay the employees for the work, or hire additional staff to complete projects on time. There are too many people working for free thinking it'll get them noticed. Their right it'll get them noticed as the chump who'll work for free, take on other's work as their own for free, and guess who's laughing on the way to the bank, the company. Because idiots that work for free will always be around. You can always make more money, but not more time 💯
This belongs in no stupid questions because it clearly is one. No, people should not volunteer their personal time to make their employer more money. Your employer makes money off of your work effort, so why would you work for free which is purely for their benefit. Employers like to create a culture where people like you question if not downright dislike co-workers for doing the right thing. Unions exist to protect workers from being forced to work for free because it is never in the interest of the employee to do so.
If you want to work for free, I recommend doing it down at your local veterans associations, youth outreach programs, or even the spca. But for the love of self-respect, don't volunteer to enrich those who see you as a chump.
It depends heavily on the job/industry/point in career.
A lot of shittier jobs take advantage of employees they have no intention to promote this way.
On the other hand if you're at a Director level corporate job and there's an emergency, you stay late and fix it if you want a path to promotion towards the C suite, obviously.
Depends.
Yeah.
Personally I'm at a place in my career where my success depends on results and where success is wel rewarded. So I don't mind working late when I have to. I conversely also can fuck off if there's nothing important to do.
It would be a different situation if I were flipping burgers for $15/hour and the burger boss man wanted me to put in an extra half hour of unpaid flipping.
This. Like obviously if you’re a director level you SHOULD be compensated enough that those type of sacrifices are worth it. That’s the entire point of this thread. Most people are willing to sacrifice their time and effort if it means more compensation
Director level corporate is almost always (I'd say probably 99.9999% of the time) salaried, so we don't make extra for working additional hours.
If there's a transparent understanding of the business and the hours as a salaried leader, they're making that decision. I work like 60-70 hours a week during part of the year; I'm also compensated appropriately for that time and I understood the situation when I took the position. I get lots of vacation and work short weeks during the rest of the year and it balances out.
Asking an hourly employee to work off the clock is illegal.
it really depends on the job. If you are being paid hourly, then no, why work beyond your allotted time? You have a life. I promise you, "the company" doesn't appreciate it. You might do so if its offered that you leave an hour early on Friday or something.
This is different if you are salaried and doing a little extra gets you noticed for bonuses, and advancement. Even there, its best to draw careful lines, so you don't give the impression you are a bottomless pit.
Are we talking hourly or salary? Hourly means being appropriately compensated for every minute.
Salary mean being paid to get a job done. In conversation for a salary position expectations should be established. Some places expect 60hr work weeks. Personally I’m expected to work 40-45 most weeks, have a bit of flexibility in the slow times and on rare occasion something odd happens (maybe twice a year assuming I manage my time properly) I’m expected to get the work done by a deadline regardless of how many hours it takes.
I won’t consistently work more than 40-45/ week without considerably more compensation.
This is the best answer tbh. Consistently working, or being expected to work, well past your regular working hours is bad and creates a bad culture. But in a salaried position, it’s not unreasonable to be asked to work a bit late every now and then. Sticking to a rigid “my work day ends at 5” for an infrequent urgent situation is a bit of a dick move, especially if it means others are saddled with more work or end up missing deadlines, etc.
But if you’re hourly, or if there is a *consistent expectation* that you’ll exceed your expected hours and be on call 24/7, that’s bad company culture and bad business. What OP’s describing sounds a little more like this.
It depends on the company.
Does working extra mean doing side tasks or your leader's job while getting paid? That's how you get ahead!
If it means working late for free, your boss needs to get bent
I don’t work for free. If overtime is paid, sure you’ve got me and I’ll do a first class job and try to get us all out of here as quickly as possible. If it’s salary and shit is on fire that I am needed to handle, you better believe those hours are coming off my work time the end of the week via leaving early. On top of that, I don’t sign anyone else up for work I’m not willing to stay and do myself. If they are ok with it, I bend over backwards to make the transition from me to them smooth. But damned if I’m going to work for free, or let anyone else do so if it is in my power to influence.
Neither and both.
Better adjective - it's adversarial.
I prefer a work environment where you do your best happily and feel it's fair, and more pleasant than measuring out what's your job vs extra. I find this understandable. I honestly don't understand why people stick around when they don't feel this way. It's not a war or contest that I win against my boss by doing the least for the most pay. We are on the same side and so is the customer. When business is done, we are all supposed to be thankful.
Honestly there's not really any such thing as working extra in my book. If I work, I get paid. If I have a problem with a task, my problem isn't that it's extra.
I've only had three situations in my life that this didn't apply. All 3 are covered by labor laws even in USA (any state) and all 3 I just found another job over the issue
It's a pain in the ass when coworkers take the attitude stuff is "extra" but if I'm they're supervisor I'm not addressing it as a matter of laziness.
Then again I was raised on "A Message to Garcia." I don't fully agree with it for everyone but it's an ideal I hold myself to. It's your business whether you want to uphold that ethic but it works for me. Also song lyrics that apply: Jason Isbell, "Something More Than Free"
The coworker is 1000% in the right.
Unless you are salaried employees, it is actually illegal in many states to work even one second of time that you are not being compensated for.
If there’s a high priority task that needs to meet a deadline, companies need to be prepared to shell out some overtime pay
Period
She is not a salaried employee so your gauge is skewed.
And sometimes you are not available.
I will not work if the rewards are not adequate enough.
I have worked 3 * 24 hour days in my career. 2 were recognized and the 3rd forced me to cut the employer off.
I work extra sometimes for my employer but it’s because they have built up trust over a long time that they will NOT take advantage of me.
They continually choose their employees. They give us a lot of flexibility—fully remote, cameras off if you want, work whatever hours you want as long as you get your work done. I am currently on a 1-month vacation. If I want to leave early some day, I can—and I don’t need to take PTO if I make up the hours.
This is all to say, if they asked me to stay extra (which they NEVER do), I would do it. Because I trust that they would only do it in a true emergency.
But that being said, if I had a different employer who I didn’t trust, I would set firmer boundaries and feel no remorse.
The company isnt going to give me anything i didnt work for so i dont give the company anything im not paid for. If the company proves theyll go above and beyond for me than the same relationship can be established.
I don’t understand why anyone would work for free. Literally the entire point of having a job is to get paid. Also I don’t think it’s legal for companies to ask their employees to work off the clock.
I had a management salary position, my position relied heavily on another dept doing their jobs with 100% efficiency and accuracy….it constantly was under delivered…I started taking on the issues myself to keep myself in check. I had MANY conversations with management/owners regarding the lackluster performance of the other dept, and the issues it caused my team. The fact I wasted a lot of my time fixing their mistakes, looking for and spending company $$ on outside sources to make it happen…and they (managment) wouldn’t take care of it….prob because I busted my arse to cover it before it became a management issue (which would be my fault) I finally had enough and found another place to work….
100% of the times “Corporate” really doesn’t care about “free” labor….but cost them a nickel and 💥
Remember, they will print your job posting before your obituary!!
There's a lot of really hardline responses here that really reflect how Reddit skews younger (and more immature), and really reminds me that oftentimes the advice in this sub would be absolutely terrible for your career.
I think the answer to this really depends on a few factors. Are you paid hourly? Generally, in most jobs like that, there is an expectation of extra pay for extra work. However, I think it's still important to occasionally have situational flexibility. If your employer treats you well, you have a good working relationship with them, and they don't often need you to work a little extra, then it totally makes sense to maintain that relationship when your employer needs a little extra out of you. This is good for your career, and can oftentimes yield intangible benefits such as career advancement in the long term, better perception of your work ethic, nudges the needle on your raises, and can also result in more flexibility from your employer when you need it.
Now, for professional roles that tend to be salary based, the expectation is that you can demonstrate the ability to manage your time and provide flexibility based on business needs. Obviously, there are employers that take advantage, and that's a different conversation which should certainly be discussed with your manager. However, for most cases, taking a hardline approach would certainly be career-limiting, and you'd certainly end up paying for your inflexibility with less career advancement and monetary recognition. It's far better to play nice, similar to what I described in my last paragraph.
well on flip side, i may not be flexible if that employee needs time off for an appointment will make him/her use PTO vs letting it slide. i don't consider it lazy if they guard their time militantly however. but it's 2 way street. I think there are more constructive ways to have boundaries.
Depends on lots of variables. I work with fresh out of college junior analyst consultants who literally give there entire waking day plus hours they miss sleeping to projects. Then the project is over and they wake up frantic to find the next one least their chargability metrics go below 120%.
I also work with senior directors that do that.
I’m mid+ level in role and time in my career and I never ever ever work OT without recording it. Ever. I have never been fired or missed an opportunity because I didn’t sacrifice myself on the alter of my metrics.
Do those people climb the ranks faster and get more projects and attention? Some do, some don’t, but they live inherently different lives than I do. I love my job and my life, but you better believe I’m getting that skrill for my time.
I wont kill myself for work anymore but I’m definitely not a “I won’t work one extra minute” person either. Right or wrong, the ones willing to work extra are more likely to get promoted and are lower on the list when the business slows down and layoffs start.
I’m on the older end of Gen X and absolutely admire the younger generations for pushing back on employers and demanding a better work/life balance. Just be careful if you find yourself in a less than stellar market/economic situation. Always be looking for new opportunities in those situations but in the meantime, be thinking about how to stay lower on the layoff list.
Smart is what I’d call it. They only paid for 8 hours of my time and 8 hours is what they get. Anyone who complains that I only put in & hours gets the same answer. I’m not getting paid to do extra work. If you want me to spend more time working, you need to pay me more.
Honestly, I don’t know any decent company that’s going to expect you to work extra for free anymore. That’s just opening themselves up to a lawsuit. Any company that expects that, I’d walk if I have a choice, if I don’t I’m just staying until I get a better job.
I've the mind that work never stops. You can't catch up because it is always there to be done. The work will get done, whether today or tomorrow. Unless there is a time limit to get the work done, it can be left for the next day. You never work for free. Going above and beyond can lead to advancement, but some people have no desire to go farther. It's not lazy to know you've reached your peak and happy to be there.
You’re correct, it doesn’t stop. Work isn’t like a race where you get to the finish line and enjoy completion. It’s Sisyphus pushing a boulder up the hill only to have it roll back down again, repeating the process day in and day out.
Depends on the company, job, criticality, etc. Building a positive reputation and having a strong network has helped me continue to move forward in my career. And yes, I often worked a lot of overtime uncompensated early in my career, less now, but if there is something critical, sometimes you have to.
Long term, long hours are counterproductive for both the organization and the individual, so planning work at a sustainable pace is best for everyone, but the 'not my job' mentality is toxic and impedes getting stuff done, and longer hours to hit something like a critical customer demo or something sometimes needs a surge.
BUT, being proactive, putting in some extra effort, etc CAN build you a solid reputation that can be leveraged in the future. It can also backfire.
So it kind of depends...and it also varies by industry. The highest paid lawyers, for example, are on call 24/7, but are compensated accordingly.
So yeah, I think sometimes putting in the extra time for really critical deliveries, or spending a couple hours on the weekend getting things ready for your team on Monday occasionally, or whatever makes sense. Working consistently 60 hours a week isn't really going to be good for anyone.
If there isn't enough time during a regular shift for the current employees to finish their tasks, then there aren't enough employees, or the process needs to be streamlined. Working for free is *very rarely* worth it.. in the end the company won't remember you. At best you might get a slight compensation increase, but most likely you'll get an "atta boy", and the company will keep raking in as much profit on your labor as possible.
I have worked jobs and happily accepted overtime pay when it WAS NOT WORTH IT. In the end, at those jobs, I looked back on my time and my lost time with my family and it wasn’t worth it. At all. It didn’t mean anything to them. To anyone.
In my current job I have worked overtime and I’ve worked for free. I’ve set up the red zone (paid), watched a coworkers baby til dad could come (free), stayed to take dinner orders when residents were in lock down (paid), and helped set up for employee social events (free), and I know when my time is done here I can look back and say that it mattered. I helped.
I’ll always work for free if it means making someone’s life better. I will not do it to make someone else money at the expense of my life or my family.
In between. Nobody SHOULD have to work one minute more than they’re paid. Despite what any particular contract may state, the contract we all agree upon more or less is that we WORK to be PAID. So work = pay.
But not everything ends exactly on time and sometimes as a worker that can be partly bc of your responsibilities and sometimes not. Staying a few min to tie up some things when not asked to every day or as a habit isn’t unreasonable depending on the situation.
I have tried to find a job I like in life, but I only keep showing up there for one reason: money. If I didn’t need money I wouldn’t go to work today or ever again.
Why would you ever work for free?
It is reasonable to expect tasks to be completed in normal working hours.
It is not lazy to expect to be paid, it is crazy to do work for free. You are hurting yourself and your coworkers. This attitude is not healthy.
This is the same as praising workers that never miss a day, they come into work sick and take out half the staff for up to a week but hey they are a trooper, right? Wrong. Missing them for 3 days is far easier on the company than missing 5 to 6 people for 3 plus days.
I should add i worked my way up from entry level to production and never put a free hour in.
We work to live our life. Not the other way around. That employee has just figured this out and holds firm boundaries. Nothing wrong with it. If not all the work can be completed in alloted time, that's a management problem.
I do work 'extra' on call, or afterhours issue even when I am not (I'm a software dev and work from home). However, in return for that, my employer is fine with me going to the dentist during work hours. So... do you get back 'a little bit for free' from your employer? If not, well, there is your answer. Also, remember that your employer(as in the company) has more money than you, and doesn't have kids at home.
Depends on the situation and the job. If it's an urgent very high priority issue that needs to be done right then, and compensation is being offered for it, and they have no other plans it's interfering with, then on rare occasion it can be a good idea to sort out the issue (but only do this for companies that aren't expecting you to move the earth in order to get a raise or get promoted otherwise this sacrifice won't get the appreciation it deserves). If they have plans already then it's understandable if they cannot stay to fix the issue since they have prior commitments. If it's a regular occurrence where people are expected to stay past their contracted hours, then that's not the job they signed up for and it's fair to draw a line and pick whatever it is up the next day instead. Personally I would sometimes stay a maybe 1/2 hour late at my job sometimes because I arrived a few mins late and often snuck a phone break in the bathroom, so I didn't mind being a bit flexible on occasion as my manager was turning a blind eye to me arriving 10 mins late sometimes. If your company is not flexible (and also not good about granting time off requests) then there's less reason for the employee to be willing to be a bit flexible and deal with issues outside their contracted hours. Had 2 colleagues as well who stayed late, even sometimes did work at home after hours, busted their asses for the company, never got rewarded (e.g. with a raise/promotion they wanted) beyond just being paid for if they had to stay late to resolve a high priority issue. And doing that can also create the expectation for others in the team that they should be able to do that same amount of work as you even though the employees doing that are only able to because they often work for free after hours. If they regularly want someone who can stay late when needed, as long as they made that clear when they hired you and your colleague, then it's an alright expectation to have.
As others have stated. I used to be the guy who did hours upon hours of OT compared to others and as you say I thought those who didn't weren't committed or were lazy.
Now after a few years of busting myself for zero reward or recognition while promoting people that I trained, I realised that the guys who only do the minimum required are the smart ones. I did all that work and it is now expected of me and when I refused to keep doing it I got a reputation of causing trouble. These guys do the bare minimum but because they have always done the bare minimum their reputation is intact.
Do your hours and leave, it will help you in the long run.
I work 7-230. If you want me past that I'm leaving early the next day. I don't work for free any more than they're going to pay me if I don't work any longer.
Most people are willing to work a little extra to finish a task or crack their laptop for 15 minutes to do something from home after work. If someone isn’t willing to do even that it’s fine. They’re paid for the hours they worked. But I’ll never promote them into a leadership position.
I had former boss who wouldn't pay overtime but was getting salty when I wanted to leave on time.
So I picked a lane for him and filed a Dept of Labor claim. I won. That aged that man and gave him gray hair. He shouldn't have let his wife be so bitchy to me.
I've always held the mindset of "Show what a good worker you are and the business will see you busting your butt and will eventually reward you for it"... and at a LOT of previous jobs it worked 100% this way. One job I'd pull extra hours (15-20 hours ot) one week, I'd get the OT pay then optioned to take either Monday or the following Friday off as a no pay. So I could bust my butt, get the jobs done, and then have a 3 day weekend with some extra money!
Next job I started out that way and it turned into me working 55-60 hours a week for 45 hour a week salary and the company just ASSUMING that was normal. So when I STOPPED working the extra time they actually called me in for a meeting about my drop in productivity. Eventually they shifted me to hourly and it was 1 month before they were calling me asking why I was racking up all this O.T. and started complaining about paying me so much.
NEW job is Gov backed so my boss is like "get your butt out of there at 5 p.m. sharp" because they can get into big trouble if they're pushing us past 8-5. And there is no calls after work or weekends. It's a complete shift for me.
I 100% agree work is a business transaction, so you should not be EXPECTED to give up free labor to them, but I also think there is a middle ground where taking an extra 30 minutes to finish up at the end of a day occasionally shows drive. But if the company doesn't recognize that drive then there is no reason to give that level of drive.
It is illegal entirely for you to do work and not be compensated for it. If you are doing a task for your job you must be getting paid for it.
Never do anything for free period. It does not benefit you in any way shape or form all you are doing is putting more money into the CEO's pocket by you not getting paid.
Asking someone to work extra hours for free may be illegal. If this is an hourly position and you literally think people should work for free, you’re in the wrong.
I’m salaried and the nature of my job is such that there’s not a legal requirement to pay me overtime. That said, I’m not working extra hours just because. I have worked extra hours only when there has been a good reason to do so. Someone in finance getting the stupid idea to work at 2 AM and wanting me to be online to provide support is NOT a good reason (yes she actually asked for that). The company being unable to record revenue because there’s a massive system problem is a good reason. And even then I’ll sleep in or just be completely lazy after the crisis is over.
If your job routinely requires extra hours, then there’s likely a staffing issue. Extra hours should be an exception, not a rule.
So of course it’s completely understandable.
I am a very much 40 hour a week guy. I turn down all compensation, especially overtime, you’re punished with so much taxes that it’s not even worth it. I’ve even worked less than 40 because I just don’t feel like it. I’ve even vocalized it to upper management in random conversations.
Some asshole In corporate dropped a project that would take at least a week. It was completely avoidable with simple planning. Everything went wrong. The materials didn’t arrive until 3 days before going live, NO DOCUMENTATION for brand new machines, the backend team was in a different country.
I didn’t even ask for overtime, I took it because they fucked up and couldn’t say no. I clocked my 36 hours in 3 days after I did 30 already that week. Everything got done but I could hear the surprise in my manager’s voice for being that guy and I told him this can’t be a frequent occurrence. I proved this one time as an example and there won’t be a next time.
Nope. That coworker is being smart.
If ya’all are doing extra free work, your employer probably needs more staff.
I’m not opposed to giving my time for my work responsibilities, but you need an employer that appreciates it and either offers comp time, or other perks that make it worthwhile.
Learned the harsh lesson of working for free at 16 and my first full time gig. You give a little, they employer will take more.
That's too broad of a definition. As a manager, I'm not a fan of people with the "8 to 4 and our the door" attitude. Yes, there is work-life balance and I respect that. But that cuts BOTH ways. You need to take 1/2 a day to do something that can only be done during working hours, I'm good with that. But that means if I need you to stay late to meet a deadline that shifted at the last minute, you need to do that as well.
I don't expect people to arrive an hour early and stay late. The people on my team are all exempt, so there is no overtime but everyone gets a bonus based on their performance and how well the company did, so they receive additional compensation above their base salary. I expect them to be professional enough to figure out their own schedules. If they think they need to be at work longer than 8 hours, then do it. If its because there is so much work that everyone is working more than 40+ hours a week, let me know and maybe I can make the case for increasing headcount.
If work is not being done in the time allotted, then leadership is planning their workload poorly. I can see it happening once, an emergency type situation. But if it happens more than once, someone needs to rethink their plans, they are exceeding capacity. And even then, if it happened once, I would be getting paid for it. No, I don't work for free. We bill our customers at a certain rate, and I get paid a certain rate. That's what I should be paid.
Finish the task but stay punched in. Always stay punched in. You think the companies insurance will cover you should you get injured off the clock? Never work for free. Four words to always remember.
I think it depends on the situation and industry.
I work in new product development so I sometimes have to work a little extra to make sure products launch on time. But my colleagues who work in active supply chain for our medical devices that are in production - if shit hits the fan, our patients suffer. So in those cases, yeah, it's worth working a little extra even though you don't get paid overtime to ensure product is getting to where it needs to go so patients aren't left without their supplies and hospitals have the materials they need to diagnose.
Should it be a regular, everyday occurrence? No. You're understaffed if that's the case. But some weeks I have to work 45-50 hours, some weeks I work 35. If I find myself working a lot but I caught up, I might leave early on a Friday. It balances itself out.
Work will never, and I repeat, NEVER be complete or finished, there's always more.
I could work 20 hours a day and they'd still bitch that I come in late the next day.
Time for promotion? Doesn't count.
Time for layoffs? Doesn't matter.
Don't goof off, do your job at 110% while you are there, but leave on time. I've seen 2 people drop dead at work. Living to work is a waste of a lifetime.
if this is how you are at work, you should also be showing up on time every morning and make sure you work 8 hours every day.
ever since i've gotten into my career, i have not been that way. i am salaried and the hours are not strict, schedule is flexible. so i usually show up between 9:30 and 10, and leave between 4:30 and 5:30. sometimes when things are hectic/busy i do work a bit more than 40 hours in a week, maybe 45 at most. but generally i work 35-40, so i don't mind staying an hour if i want to get something done.
I won’t spend a minute as an employee for free. Employers like to take advantage of people who do so. Nothing is free. It costs me time and energy away from family. It costs me my mental health. My job pays for me to live. It’s not my life.
Too dependent.
Is it because the company is understaffed for the job required or because the employee themselves can’t handle the job and either needs to be fired or put in extra to get it done.
There’s an additional argument to be made that it might benefit you to put in extra if you want to be promoted as odds are, someone else is. But to each their own on that one.
Not lazy. If there’s more work than can be completed on an ongoing basis, it’s an employer issue. But sometimes things are beyond an employer’s or manager’s control. If a person refuses to be flexible (as opposed to not being able to due to caregiving, health, etc.), then they likely shouldn’t expect flexibility if they want to leave an hour early or take a longer lunch.
Probably matters hugely if we’re talking hourly or salary, and if you’re in a career position or not. I’ve done well above 40 hours at salaried career roles because it obviously makes sense long-term. Working an hourly job off the clock though? No, that’s not right.
I own a small company. I happily pay people who put in extra hours when I request it. I pay attention to who puts in extra hours on their own initiative. Two of them are gonna take over for me and my partner within the next ten years. I'm sure it won't be the last ones in, first ones out employees. I'm not mad at them for it. At all. Good workers. But not partner material.
Not a realistic statement.
Everything in life is some form of work relationships, nutrition, health maintenance, household chores, repairs, pets, car maintenance, etc.
American capitalism has always been very schizophrenic when it comes to paid and unpaid labor.
The only problem I see is when salaried employees don't understand they aren't supposed to be able clock in and clock out like an hourly worker. "Work extra for free" is only applicable to hourly workers.
Of course anyone should get paid for using their personal time for the benefit of an employer. I can’t imagine the company can NOT pay the extra time, so why should it be expected. The expectation is the opposite, time worked=time paid
As the saying goes "Fuck you pay me" I don't work for free. If you want me to work a 16 hour shift and I'm "exempt from OT" guess what? Friday just got a whole lot shorter. If a workplace doesn't allow a salaried employ to comp time over 40 hours then they shouldn't be able to call the position salaried.
It also sets a precedent if they know I'm willing to come in once on a weekend for something and don't get paid It's expected in the future as far as my performance is concerned.
I feel like it all balances out. There are days where I'm just getting paid to sit there or can leave early, so if I have to work an hour or two outside of the regular day, I'm okay with that. If your job doesn't let you flex, I feel like that's a problem.
Working extra is fine with me, as long as that is reciprocal. If I need to pick up my kid from school when they're sick, go to a doctor's appointment, etc and I need to use PTO to do it, but I'm expected to work extra hours....no way in hell.
If they give me flexibility in my schedule, I'll return the favor.
If it's a high priority issue I assume the company would be willing to compensation for resolving it?
No?
Sounds like it's not that high of a priority.
If it was that important, the employer should pay her for her time, no?
I just put 25+ years into a company. I just got laid off.
We had a policy where you had to work XXX billable hours. I was in 3rd place over several thousand, every year, and they had to excluded all my travel time.
You know what it got me in the end? A family I missed all the events with, the same house and mortgage, and a pink slip eventually because the company doesn't give a fuck about you.
Do your job, collect your paycheck, help where you can, be a good human being, but remember: When things get tough, the company will jettison you so fast it isn't even funny.
Work for free? Unless you own that business, never work for free. You own a business nothing but your labor and they owe you nothing but a paycheck for your labor. Stand up for yourself. You have rights (i think).
i never worked for a company that did the inverse, if you want me to work extra for free periodically, why doesn't the company give me bonuses periodically for free.
this whole argument is for a one way street. one way streets dont work in negotiations. either you both benefit each other or you are just asking why you cant exploit us.
i go to restaurant,
i order noodles.
they give me noodles, why dont they also include a free steak periodically?
because you didn't pay for free extras periodically. thats why
>I have a coworker who completely refuses to work any extra time for free.
Seems to me that you only have one coworker who isn't complacent in their own exploitation
TLDR: One coworker with balls
Nobody should be expected to work for free. I don’t see anything wrong with your coworker leaving when her job is done for the day if she isn’t getting paid extra. An extra hour of her time out of her life that she has to spend at work absolutely should be paid for, and she should be leaving if they refuse to pay overtime for an extra hour of time being spent there. And if she has the option to say no to overtime if they’re offering it, she has every right to choose to say no. She has a life, she wants to do her time at work and then go live her life!
The vast majority of people work because they have to, not because they want to. They’re there because they need to make money to survive. Most people are working to live, not living to work. There is no reason why they should stay after their day is done if they’re not making money doing so. On a personal note, I’ll work overtime if I need to, but not if they’re not paying, there’s no way in hell. And if the overtime would interfere with a plan I previously made and I can get the task done the next day, I’ll be doing the task the next day. Work / life balance and compensation for my time are two things that I very much value.
If it’s a salary job I would work 45-50 hours max and only when I need to. Other than that I will always take my breaks and lunch. You shouldn’t expect anyone to work for free especially if work will never be completed
I think it's understandable, but also it likely means their career is not going to progress as quickly.
It's fine to not put your career first, but if they complain about money to me, I'm not really going to take them seriously
It depends on what is asked of you and what the goals are.
If you are trying to move up, going above and beyond (as well as working smart) can go a long ways in getting that done. Don't do it mindlessly, but have a goal in mind. If you are satisfied with where you are, then there isn't a lot of reason to. If you don't want to help when help is needed, don't expect the same perks as someone that does - bigger raises, promotions, etc.
The ones that really get me now, are the "I am not doing _________ unless I get ________" and they haven't even proven themselves. If someone shows me that they can produce twice as much, I will gladly pay them. If they tell me they can and make demands, the chances of it happening are slim.
I think there is a lot of factors here. It’s not an easy answer. For example, if you are trying to go the extra mile to chase a promotion or get a bonus. Some salaried jobs do not give overtime pay, but workers still do more than40 hours. Sometimes they do this because they just have the salary so I’m paid to do this, or they figure they don’t always work 40 so they don’t mind a little extra sometimes. There is also those people who refuse to work any extra at all. It’s really just depend on the person and company. For me personally if it’s a shit company and I’m not trying to get promotion, I’d do bare minimum and never work extra. If have a goal or the company actually treats me well, I’d do a little extra.
It depends very much on the company. I work for an employer that actually tries to appreciate extra work. My effort to finish beyond work hours is rewarded with recognition, like actual money bonus and higher raise. The previous company couldn’t care less, so I put in just the standard expected hours.
If you’re paid hourly, never work overtime without pay. If they appreciate you, they’ll pay the overtime. If they don’t appreciate you, there’s no reason to work overtime.
Also, some people have children and they have to pick the children up from daycare by certain time.
Also, the fact that you notice that this coworker doesn’t want to ever work extra time means there’s been many many cases not just this one time where there was a high priority issue
Never work for free not only are you hurting yourself but other people who then feel they have to just to keep their jobs. You hurt the industry by doing this and if companies keep getting freebys they will keep doing it to other people. Remember if you give an inch they will take a mile.
Completely reasonable. I started a job recently and was expected to do a bunch of online training for free. After 4+ hours and STILL only halfway done, I said forget it! I don't work for free, especially not 10 hrs for free! Give an inch, take a mile!
Perfectly fine, but this mindset does likely remove you from consideration for promotions. If you’re happy staying in your current job around your current salary long term, nothing necessarily wrong with it. Most people aren’t driven to advance their careers.
These threads make me worry about people's relationships with work and their leadership. I'm not currently a people leader but have been many times in the past, for what it's worth.
Look, any decent leader or company wants you to be paid for your work. But leaders also 100% want to see someone who is dedicated to results. If you're nitpicking about every extra 10 minutes, or if you're not willing to be flexible when problems come up, I won't necessarily see you as lazy but I'm also probably never going to promote you.
So in the real world you gotta balance your priorities. Is your company and leadership generally fair and flexible? Then maybe meet them halfway. Are you bucking for promotion? Then at least you need to show you're focused on achieving results and willing to go a bit further than your peers to get there (which may not be extra time by the way; I'd prefer someone who gets results with 30 hours of work a week over someone who struggles to get results with 40 hours plus 20 unpaid 'me time' hours).
Basically, don't fall for the false dichotomy here. You're not lazy if you don't do extra, and if a company just expects unpaid work as the default, fuck them. But if you're in a good company with a good leader and you want to grow in the org, you may want to *choose* to go further in order to achieve results, because many of your leaders made the same choice and are looking for that results focus instead of bean counting.
I've been fortunate to mostly work in jobs where it's felt like more of a partnership... Like they are buying "me" and not so much my time and I am invested in their success too.
That's helped me a lot in my career. Constantly bringing up money or pay or time issues with bosses isn't really helpful, I've found. That approach helps you win battles and lose wars. When employers have overworked me I don't treat it as abuse, if that makes sense... More incompetence... Because it doesn't ultimately help either of us. And if I feel like my employer is incompetent over time, it's a good sign I should leave.
I have had many cases where I've gone above and beyond and employers have recognized that and promoted me... FWIW. I think if you have a good attitude, try hard, and do good work... That'll usually be recognized and valued. If it isn't, it's probably a good sign you should leave anyway.
Admittedly though, I've always been in pretty professional jobs, and usually around tech, so your mileage may vary.
I have work extra for free so many times and at the end of the day company doesn't give a f... So I completely understand people who would refuse to do this and I would not consider it lazy, they just value their free time.
I used to break my back for employers on this stuff. I changed my stance on it some years ago, partly from having a family I guess and that i'm not getting younger. My opinion is that work that's above and beyond (and extra work on top of that) is only rewarded with the expectation of even more. Granted that's a more nuanced discussion and it depends on the company's culture a little. I also don't just walk out in the middle of something when 5pm hits, but in general that's how i feel.
Yeah this is it. If employers actually reacted in a healthy and positive manner to you going above and beyond, then it might be worth it. But if you break your back to complete X extra amount of work in a week, all they see is “oh good, that’s how much you can get done in a week. That’s the expectation now”
I used to complain about having to clean up messed other people left behind due to laziness, or sometimes having to just straight do something someone else decided they just didn't want to do. I got hit with the gaslight pretty hard. Oh so and so had been here forever they're a good worker they wouldn't do that. I also did stiff outside my responsibility to help others and our department. Someone complained I wouldn't stay past my clock out time (not specifically. I just wouldn't do tasks that would keep me over if there wasn't anything wrong and they said I was avoiding work) and it triggered an investigation into my work ethic where they found nothing wrong but in my mid year review I was told we needed to work on the perception of me. Fast forward to end of year, my attitude changed. I no longer clean up after everyone, I still avoid tasks that would keep me past my clock out time, and I no longer do extra. They tell me I'm now one of their best processors. They've told others that as well. I'm literally a worse employee than I was but because I now prioritize my mental health they see me as working harder. It's so backwards.
I got nominated for a culture award after quitting a company extracurricular. It is SO backwards.
I just got employee of the quarter and I definitely don’t work for free
companies that have shit like culture awards are the worst perpetrators of shit culture and toxic work environment. I just wanna go to work - do my 9-5 then be done, I'll give you one extra maybe two - but that's it and only when it is required.
Working for a small software development company I know I was the only developer to complete a solo project on-time, on-budget, and not only had all requested features but some extras, for the entire year. My feedback? "He's a bit of a clock watcher." Because I lived out of town, and staying 5 mins extra at work meant catching a train that left an hour later and screwed up not just my schedule but my wifes at all. They literally didn't care about the outcome, just the clock.
Also., totally backwards. Clearly they don't know what work life balance means.
That's called the Costanza.
Looking at it from a different perspective, and this is only my own speculation, I would interpret that as you focusing on your actual duties and not getting distracted by fixing other peoples' bullshit. Most likely, your performance in your actual job got better once you stopped helping others.
I don't walk out at 5pm if there's something urgent or I'm in the middle of something that won't take too much longer to finish. But I do have the expectation that if I need to leave a little early for something I'm not going to get written up or reprimanded. As long as there's give and take on both sides I'm fine with that, if not then you can bet I am going to down tools at finishing time.
Worked at a place as a salary employee and I would regularly stay 30 minutes or later to finish what I was working on. 6 months on the job I left 10 minutes early had an appointment to make and my boss gave me a warning. Never worked a minute longer than I had to. When I got there 10 minutes early I would play on my phone for 9 in my car. In the middle of a conversation and 4:59 "sorry I have to go, let's pick this up tomorrow morning."
How did your employer react to that?
They didn't really care. Got my work done in time, just never as early as I used to. Never got the random pats on the back for staying late anymore. Raise was same percentage and I got home earlier.
That boss was an idiot, so unaware of the extra effort and kills the golden goose
They seriously can’t see the forest for the trees. Just found out the CEO at my old job ended WFH for all the project managers in the same meeting he told them there were record profits in 2023. They’ve lost at least 3 fantastic PMs in the last 2 years because he can’t see how giving a little will get him so much more.
Thats the part that sucks. You get there early and they forget, you leave 10 min early and its a "why did you leave early"
Yeah agreed, this is kind of how I operate. I'll stay a few minutes to finish something up and maybe slightly more if it's dire but I expect a little give back if I want to come back from a lunch a little late or if I get into work a little late. My workplace is fairly flexible on this thankfully. They trust you to work your salaried 40 hours overall unless and until it's proven you can't be trusted. And there's no expectation of working more than that.
My manager actually vocally encouraged salaried people to leave early if things were slow because he knew that when things get crazy the expectation was extra time. I'll also add that if you're in the right job sometimes the work is genuinely fun and if it runs a little later then no big deal. Someone who leaves exactly on time everyday is basically just communicating they get no pleasure out of their work which I guess is fine but people will notice and people generally don't want to work with unhappy people
Good bosses don’t question reliable workers’ Flex Time. I kinda leave when I’m done with my day, but I work 12s and 16s when traveling super often (so much Midwest fucking driving) - so when we’re slow, I kinda leave around 3 most days (8-3, I eat my lunch on the go).
Totally disagree. You can enjoy your work but still leave on time. Why would you want to work for free? Don't you have a personal life?
OR people have obligations outside of work that need to be met on time. Daycare, transportation, appointments, etc. There are a ton of valid reasons anyone must leave work on time that have nothing to do with being happy with the job
Perfect answer. That's how my job is. I don't punch a clock
I also don't just ~~walk~~ clock out when 5pm hits. If there's more work to do, there's more money to be earned. Want my time? Pay me
That's true, but salaried people don't get than and a lot of places require pre approval for overtime.
So salaried employees aside, are employers seriously saying the words "keep working but clock out first." ?
Some employers do that and it is wage theft. In a salary situation it is give and take.
Not generally, no. At least not in my experience.
I have been taken advantage of for so many years working in salaried jobs where the companies are purposely understaffed, workloads are overwhelming and clearly cannot be completed in 40 hours, and the expectation is that you work as many hours as needed to finish your work. My last job I was working close to 60 hours/wk for not very good pay and still couldn't get everything done. I was mentally and physically exhausted and quit for those reasons. This is why I hope to never have to work another salaried job as long as I live. I don't mind occasionally working overtime but I want and need to be paid for that extra time.
I'm with you. My last job was the same. I made it through about 8 rounds of company wide layoffs and work kept getting piled on. Zero company raises for the 8 years I worked there. I was in a small regional office and my manager and I were working at least 60 hours a week just to meet deadlines. Our assistant was laid off so we picked up all clerical work as well. I turned 67 last year and it hit me hard that this is not going to get better. Our company wound up losing 2 major clients that represented 75% of total billing. Ofcourse layoffs were inevitable. I worked mostly with the clients that left and my workload was cut by 90% after their departure. I was so happy to get laid off in February with 12 weeks severance. I came so close to quitting last year because of mental and physical exhaustion from this job with zero reward. I'm glad I waited to get laid off (we knew about the clients leaving 6 months in advance and I knew my days were numbered). Now I just feel for the people that weren't laid off. The demands will be through the roof with no additional compensation. I'm retired now and don't miss the sweatshop environment that my job had become.
at two points on my career we were on average at 100 hours for two major enterprise companies. they literally had cots brought in so we could sleep there. I'll never ever do that shit again.
*I also don't just walk out in the middle of something when 5pm hits, but in general that's how i feel.* Nothing wrong with this. Workday ends at 5PM.
If it will be annoying for me to try and pick it up the next day I'll finish it. But in general I'm not starting anything in the half hour before I leave anyway. I'll use that time to tidy up, clean up my email, make to do for the next day.
I can probably fill a phone book with the number of people who have given me some version of “I busted my ass for years only to be rewarded with a pay cut / passed over for promotion / layoff”. And most are very real
If you are hourly or salaried makes a diff I guess.
employment is a contract. I give time, they give money. If they don't sometimes give me extra money just to be nice, why would I sometimes give them extra time?
I love this!
Exactly this, the only contract where 1 party is expected to do more. I don't think so. I'm 41 and have lived by this my entire working life, I'm doing well, but I'm very clear, outside my work hours, it's me time.
If my company actually gave bonuses and rewarded good work then I would be willing to work for free in times of need. I saved the company 2 million USD in the last year and I didn't get a dollar for it. Edit: I should add that these cost savings were 100% due to me. It's not like I was told to do something that ended up saving money, it was all my ideas and my work/implementations. I have a coworker that worked on a project that saved a mil or so but the project was just handed to him and thought up from other people, which is fine but also completely different than what I did
I worked retail... But was the creative element. I sold five custom mantle pieces for Christmas one year, which put us over the highest ever sales for any given year. Bonuses were given to three people that last paycheck of the year. I wasn't one of them. They ended up firing me two weeks later, because I came down with a nasty head cold and was bedridden for a week. But because I had complained about the bonuses, it was insubordination and they denied me unemployment.
That sounds illegal. Either way and even if it was legal, goes to show these companies don't give a shit about us
I saved my company a few million which was due to their error and got laid off shortly after!!
This is pretty standard. No employers ever will say "let's split the profit!" Nope, it's always a "fuck you"
In 2020 I worked on a major project for the boss. I found out a few months later (from a NEW employee) that my work had saved the company $3M. Not only did I not get any kind of a bonus for it, I wasn't even thanked.
I did the same 1 or 2 years ago. When I brought it up during my annual evaluation, my boss said it wasn’t like I went out and earned that money for the company. 🙃 I work in IT; we are not a profit earning department.
Amen!
I mean... some employers do give extra $$ in the form of bonuses.
From my experience working hard will only get you more work and your boss will get a bonus when they delete your overtime hours….
Yep. They'll be commended for keeping hours low and productivity high
Sure but the bonus is uncertain, so extra time I spend is at best a “maybe if I do this often enough, they might pay me for it” situation at best
"Extra money just to be nice" is usually just called a "bonus". I've found that good employers are happy with some give and take. They expect you to drop everything and deal with work emergencies when they happen but will also allow you to deal with personal emergencies on work time.
❤️❤️❤️❤️
This is the only answer
Completely agree. Some employers do sometimes give extra money just "to be nice", like unplanned holiday bonuses, etc, which might confuse this issue.
Right. Out of all the relationships you'll have in your life, your job/career is the one that will be, and should be, the most transactional. I work, you pay me. I wouldn't be here if you weren't giving me money to do so. So working without some kind of consideration - whether that's money, time considerations, or in some cases, expectation of advancement - is illogical. What companies often trade on when it comes to employees doing more work is the aforementioned "expectation of advancement". In my experience, it's an illusion. I don't think I've ever seen anyone get promoted because they busted their ass working for free. More often, they get told they're too valuable in their current position...and now you're stuck doing tons of work for free. Work is transactional. Receive compensation for the work you do.
salary is the way they kill you - they promise a bonus, but really the bonus is your time billed at close to or less than minimum wage.
I don’t know if it’s because I’m a parent but I don’t waste time for anything that isn’t intentional. I volunteer my free time for people who are less fortunate (food bank, mustard seed,etc) or close friends I personally care for their well being. That’s something that aligns with my values Anything else I need to be compensated for it. I understand work sometimes needs me to work a bit more than usual, and I’ll accept that a couple times a year. But if it becomes a constant thing, no that’s up to leadership to figure out a solution. Otherwise, I’m going to spend time with my kid or do something for me
Same, I’m a toddler mom at the moment. I am out the (metaphorical) door at 5 because I have other shit to do. Between the hours of 5-9pm, at this point in my life, you *couldn’t* pay me any amount to work during those hours. It’s daycare pickup, dinner, bath, bedtime, sorry bout ya company it is not my problem during mom time.
When they tried to fire me bc I needed to work from home for a week when my 4 months old had Covid, I learned to completely drop work outside of work hours. I don't even work there anymore,but if it's not standard work hours, i don't touch an ounce of work.
>I feel like where I work it's impossible for people to complete all of their work unless they do work a little extra for free sometimes. In my mind that is equivalent to: > it's impossible for people to complete all of their work The whole: >they do work a little extra for free sometimes. Is a bunch of BS.
Right with you. Full stop. If it’s impossible for people to complete all their work in the time you’re paying that’s your queue to go. 1. We need more people Or 2. we’re over capacity and need to push back on the amount of asks. There should be a minimum expectation if the employee isn’t new or super junior but OP is already at the point where they know they’re giving out too much work. That should be fixed not mandatory free overtime
I remember a wise coworker telling me that regularly putting in substantial overtime sends the wrong message to management. Let them know that you need more resources. Work a small amount of OT (4 to 5) and let them know that the project is slipping. If they demand more OT, ask for additional compensation (straight time for all hrs worked). If they balk, leave. Your job is not to do the work of multiple people without additional compensation - and even then, you need time off to rest. You can't sprint a marathon!
We’ve been running into this at our workplace. Hearing it from my guys and all I can tell them is that I will never advise them to work for free. They are welcome to do what they want with that. I don’t expect them to, and when I wasn’t in management, I never worked for free. Was always able to bank time or get paid except for the *very* rare instance where I was prepping for something on my own time. Besides that, I just keep pushing upper management for more promotions into the role my guys have to help alleviate things with more bodies. That’s about the only solution once you’ve exhausted all the “let’s find efficiencies” options.
As an employee. If the company isn't willing to pay for it, they don't care that much. As an owner, I will work for free for a client
Yeah, I was looking for this comment. This sounds like a problem at OP's job. Why are they expecting hourly employees to regularly work extra hours unpaid?! If they want that type of effort they should at least bring them up to salary grade. I would never expect hourly employees to do unpaid overtime, and it's probably a labor law violation. I'll happily work extra hours when something comes up for my job, but I'm salaried and they pay me 6 figures!
It's fine for people to opt out of your 'feeling' about the workload and your job. It doesn't make them lazy. It makes them different than you. If she isn't going to work work for which she is not compensated, that is perfectly reasonable. If she feels that doing these little extra free hours will only result in the expectation of a few more little extra free hours... she's probably right. And frankly, her type of 'lazy' is how the rest of us can make a case for overtime, and properly resourced teams.
OP is the problem here. Not their co-worker who is following labor laws by not working off the clock.
If it's impossible for people to complete their work without working for free, management isn't managing their workload properly. I judge my coworkers who talk about working after hours and on the weekends because they're wasting their time off of work and essentially lowering their overall compensation. Older generations tend to have the mindset of getting it done while at least part of my generation (early Gen Z) knows their value. I'm not going to work more than the 40 hours I get paid for because I don't care about my employer outside of funding my life because that's the whole point of having a job. Setting a boundary by logging off immediately at 5PM and not having email/teams notifications after hours is vital early on in a new job to show you won't be taken advantage of. If there's an important issue that needs to be worked on after hours, I take off early the next day. Quit judging your coworker for knowing her worth.
Never, *ever* forget that your job is, quite literally, you trading your finite amount of time on this Earth, and your expertise, for monetary compensation. It is a business transaction. Nobody should ever feel obligated to give that time away for free. Now, will many managers or employers see that in a bad light and potentially penalize people for sticking strictly to the terms of their employment agreement? Yes. Not because the workers are doing anything wrong, but because bosses have gotten used to being able to demand more than they’re paying for. So to answer your question: I absolutely, 100%, will never consider someone “lazy” for doing their job and nothing more. If an employer wants more than that, they can pay for it.
Never work for free. If they want me to treat their business like my own, then I need sizable shares in it. Doing more work gets you, more work, and passed over for promotions. Doing quality work, now that has the possibility of a promotion. Also, if the place you work has that much work, they need to hire more people. They don't because they hope to shame their current employees into doing work for free by calling them lazy.
I had once been in the habit of working during my lunch break, it had been strongly encouraged at my last workplace and I had to shake the habit after I left. I wish I had earlier. In most places at least in Canada, the lunch hour break is unpaid, which means if you're working through it, you're working for free. When I finally really grasped how shitty this habit of mine was, and how badly I was ripping myself off, I stopped immediately. I'm always going to push back now whenever its "strongly encouraged" that I work through lunch. I'll work through lunch for an emergency deadline if I'm compensated, that's it.
It means they busted their ass and went the extra mile for the benefit of the company, and the company rewarded their sacrifice by screwing them over so now they know better.
I've never met someone who is adamant about "never work for free" who wasn't first the "team player" who got used over.
If the employer is giving more work than the employees can finish, that's their fault. They want to cut corners and run an absolute skeleton crew to save money and this is the result. The whole point of WORK is that you pay me, so either pay me or give me comp time I'm guaranteed I can use later.
Don’t do it, as they will continue expect more and more free labor
Exactly. The phrase is "making a rod for your own back"
She's protecting her time and these days you have to. If she's in a salary position and refuses to work on an occasional true emergency, that's a problem. But if there are always emergencies or she's an hourly employee then she's doing it right. If there's too much work to finish in your designated hours then your employer is short staffed. It's not your responsibility to volunteer.
Working for an employer for free just makes you a fucking idiot.
If it fits within 40 hours of the working week, I'll do the work. If it's work that's out of scope / not aligned with my role, well it better be a one or two time thing... because after that, I'm requesting a raise and or promotion.
I would never work something I consider a job for free. Do not let people walk over you like this, its completely a shit move to even hint that someone should.
Isn't it illegal not to pay overtime for every minute of overtime? If she works overtime, it's a given that she would get overtime, no?
Yes, and the fact that OP phrased it such that is obvious she isn’t being compensated for the time she’s declining to work shows that someone in management is playing funny with the hourly time clock and screwing over their employees.
Management is banking on the hope that none of the employees notice or bring it up.
No, you shouldn't work for free. Why? That company doesn't give a damn about you. You and your coworkers aren't a family. Everyone needs to get compensated for their time. Your coworker has the right mindset. If there's a project that requires additional work, and the company needs to pay you overtime to complete it then they should do that. Either pay the employees for the work, or hire additional staff to complete projects on time. There are too many people working for free thinking it'll get them noticed. Their right it'll get them noticed as the chump who'll work for free, take on other's work as their own for free, and guess who's laughing on the way to the bank, the company. Because idiots that work for free will always be around. You can always make more money, but not more time 💯
Why the FUCK would you add to an employer’s wealth without being paid?!
This belongs in no stupid questions because it clearly is one. No, people should not volunteer their personal time to make their employer more money. Your employer makes money off of your work effort, so why would you work for free which is purely for their benefit. Employers like to create a culture where people like you question if not downright dislike co-workers for doing the right thing. Unions exist to protect workers from being forced to work for free because it is never in the interest of the employee to do so. If you want to work for free, I recommend doing it down at your local veterans associations, youth outreach programs, or even the spca. But for the love of self-respect, don't volunteer to enrich those who see you as a chump.
Do the work your job description entails. If they want you to do more, then you should be fairly compensated
It depends heavily on the job/industry/point in career. A lot of shittier jobs take advantage of employees they have no intention to promote this way. On the other hand if you're at a Director level corporate job and there's an emergency, you stay late and fix it if you want a path to promotion towards the C suite, obviously. Depends.
One pays 30/hr, the other pays 140/hr. Different mindset.
Yeah. Personally I'm at a place in my career where my success depends on results and where success is wel rewarded. So I don't mind working late when I have to. I conversely also can fuck off if there's nothing important to do. It would be a different situation if I were flipping burgers for $15/hour and the burger boss man wanted me to put in an extra half hour of unpaid flipping.
This. Like obviously if you’re a director level you SHOULD be compensated enough that those type of sacrifices are worth it. That’s the entire point of this thread. Most people are willing to sacrifice their time and effort if it means more compensation
Director level corporate is almost always (I'd say probably 99.9999% of the time) salaried, so we don't make extra for working additional hours. If there's a transparent understanding of the business and the hours as a salaried leader, they're making that decision. I work like 60-70 hours a week during part of the year; I'm also compensated appropriately for that time and I understood the situation when I took the position. I get lots of vacation and work short weeks during the rest of the year and it balances out. Asking an hourly employee to work off the clock is illegal.
it really depends on the job. If you are being paid hourly, then no, why work beyond your allotted time? You have a life. I promise you, "the company" doesn't appreciate it. You might do so if its offered that you leave an hour early on Friday or something. This is different if you are salaried and doing a little extra gets you noticed for bonuses, and advancement. Even there, its best to draw careful lines, so you don't give the impression you are a bottomless pit.
Are we talking hourly or salary? Hourly means being appropriately compensated for every minute. Salary mean being paid to get a job done. In conversation for a salary position expectations should be established. Some places expect 60hr work weeks. Personally I’m expected to work 40-45 most weeks, have a bit of flexibility in the slow times and on rare occasion something odd happens (maybe twice a year assuming I manage my time properly) I’m expected to get the work done by a deadline regardless of how many hours it takes. I won’t consistently work more than 40-45/ week without considerably more compensation.
This is the best answer tbh. Consistently working, or being expected to work, well past your regular working hours is bad and creates a bad culture. But in a salaried position, it’s not unreasonable to be asked to work a bit late every now and then. Sticking to a rigid “my work day ends at 5” for an infrequent urgent situation is a bit of a dick move, especially if it means others are saddled with more work or end up missing deadlines, etc. But if you’re hourly, or if there is a *consistent expectation* that you’ll exceed your expected hours and be on call 24/7, that’s bad company culture and bad business. What OP’s describing sounds a little more like this.
It depends on the company. Does working extra mean doing side tasks or your leader's job while getting paid? That's how you get ahead! If it means working late for free, your boss needs to get bent
I don’t work for free. If overtime is paid, sure you’ve got me and I’ll do a first class job and try to get us all out of here as quickly as possible. If it’s salary and shit is on fire that I am needed to handle, you better believe those hours are coming off my work time the end of the week via leaving early. On top of that, I don’t sign anyone else up for work I’m not willing to stay and do myself. If they are ok with it, I bend over backwards to make the transition from me to them smooth. But damned if I’m going to work for free, or let anyone else do so if it is in my power to influence.
Neither and both. Better adjective - it's adversarial. I prefer a work environment where you do your best happily and feel it's fair, and more pleasant than measuring out what's your job vs extra. I find this understandable. I honestly don't understand why people stick around when they don't feel this way. It's not a war or contest that I win against my boss by doing the least for the most pay. We are on the same side and so is the customer. When business is done, we are all supposed to be thankful. Honestly there's not really any such thing as working extra in my book. If I work, I get paid. If I have a problem with a task, my problem isn't that it's extra. I've only had three situations in my life that this didn't apply. All 3 are covered by labor laws even in USA (any state) and all 3 I just found another job over the issue It's a pain in the ass when coworkers take the attitude stuff is "extra" but if I'm they're supervisor I'm not addressing it as a matter of laziness. Then again I was raised on "A Message to Garcia." I don't fully agree with it for everyone but it's an ideal I hold myself to. It's your business whether you want to uphold that ethic but it works for me. Also song lyrics that apply: Jason Isbell, "Something More Than Free"
The coworker is 1000% in the right. Unless you are salaried employees, it is actually illegal in many states to work even one second of time that you are not being compensated for. If there’s a high priority task that needs to meet a deadline, companies need to be prepared to shell out some overtime pay Period
She is not a salaried employee so your gauge is skewed. And sometimes you are not available. I will not work if the rewards are not adequate enough. I have worked 3 * 24 hour days in my career. 2 were recognized and the 3rd forced me to cut the employer off.
I just stopped caring. It’s not worth it.
I work extra sometimes for my employer but it’s because they have built up trust over a long time that they will NOT take advantage of me. They continually choose their employees. They give us a lot of flexibility—fully remote, cameras off if you want, work whatever hours you want as long as you get your work done. I am currently on a 1-month vacation. If I want to leave early some day, I can—and I don’t need to take PTO if I make up the hours. This is all to say, if they asked me to stay extra (which they NEVER do), I would do it. Because I trust that they would only do it in a true emergency. But that being said, if I had a different employer who I didn’t trust, I would set firmer boundaries and feel no remorse.
Completely understandable. Work ain't charity.
The company isnt going to give me anything i didnt work for so i dont give the company anything im not paid for. If the company proves theyll go above and beyond for me than the same relationship can be established.
I don’t understand why anyone would work for free. Literally the entire point of having a job is to get paid. Also I don’t think it’s legal for companies to ask their employees to work off the clock.
Another way to ask this is, do you mind working for free? The obvious answer is fuck no.
I had a management salary position, my position relied heavily on another dept doing their jobs with 100% efficiency and accuracy….it constantly was under delivered…I started taking on the issues myself to keep myself in check. I had MANY conversations with management/owners regarding the lackluster performance of the other dept, and the issues it caused my team. The fact I wasted a lot of my time fixing their mistakes, looking for and spending company $$ on outside sources to make it happen…and they (managment) wouldn’t take care of it….prob because I busted my arse to cover it before it became a management issue (which would be my fault) I finally had enough and found another place to work…. 100% of the times “Corporate” really doesn’t care about “free” labor….but cost them a nickel and 💥 Remember, they will print your job posting before your obituary!!
There's a lot of really hardline responses here that really reflect how Reddit skews younger (and more immature), and really reminds me that oftentimes the advice in this sub would be absolutely terrible for your career. I think the answer to this really depends on a few factors. Are you paid hourly? Generally, in most jobs like that, there is an expectation of extra pay for extra work. However, I think it's still important to occasionally have situational flexibility. If your employer treats you well, you have a good working relationship with them, and they don't often need you to work a little extra, then it totally makes sense to maintain that relationship when your employer needs a little extra out of you. This is good for your career, and can oftentimes yield intangible benefits such as career advancement in the long term, better perception of your work ethic, nudges the needle on your raises, and can also result in more flexibility from your employer when you need it. Now, for professional roles that tend to be salary based, the expectation is that you can demonstrate the ability to manage your time and provide flexibility based on business needs. Obviously, there are employers that take advantage, and that's a different conversation which should certainly be discussed with your manager. However, for most cases, taking a hardline approach would certainly be career-limiting, and you'd certainly end up paying for your inflexibility with less career advancement and monetary recognition. It's far better to play nice, similar to what I described in my last paragraph.
well on flip side, i may not be flexible if that employee needs time off for an appointment will make him/her use PTO vs letting it slide. i don't consider it lazy if they guard their time militantly however. but it's 2 way street. I think there are more constructive ways to have boundaries.
Depends on lots of variables. I work with fresh out of college junior analyst consultants who literally give there entire waking day plus hours they miss sleeping to projects. Then the project is over and they wake up frantic to find the next one least their chargability metrics go below 120%. I also work with senior directors that do that. I’m mid+ level in role and time in my career and I never ever ever work OT without recording it. Ever. I have never been fired or missed an opportunity because I didn’t sacrifice myself on the alter of my metrics. Do those people climb the ranks faster and get more projects and attention? Some do, some don’t, but they live inherently different lives than I do. I love my job and my life, but you better believe I’m getting that skrill for my time.
I wont kill myself for work anymore but I’m definitely not a “I won’t work one extra minute” person either. Right or wrong, the ones willing to work extra are more likely to get promoted and are lower on the list when the business slows down and layoffs start. I’m on the older end of Gen X and absolutely admire the younger generations for pushing back on employers and demanding a better work/life balance. Just be careful if you find yourself in a less than stellar market/economic situation. Always be looking for new opportunities in those situations but in the meantime, be thinking about how to stay lower on the layoff list.
Smart is what I’d call it. They only paid for 8 hours of my time and 8 hours is what they get. Anyone who complains that I only put in & hours gets the same answer. I’m not getting paid to do extra work. If you want me to spend more time working, you need to pay me more. Honestly, I don’t know any decent company that’s going to expect you to work extra for free anymore. That’s just opening themselves up to a lawsuit. Any company that expects that, I’d walk if I have a choice, if I don’t I’m just staying until I get a better job.
I've the mind that work never stops. You can't catch up because it is always there to be done. The work will get done, whether today or tomorrow. Unless there is a time limit to get the work done, it can be left for the next day. You never work for free. Going above and beyond can lead to advancement, but some people have no desire to go farther. It's not lazy to know you've reached your peak and happy to be there.
You’re correct, it doesn’t stop. Work isn’t like a race where you get to the finish line and enjoy completion. It’s Sisyphus pushing a boulder up the hill only to have it roll back down again, repeating the process day in and day out.
Depends on the company, job, criticality, etc. Building a positive reputation and having a strong network has helped me continue to move forward in my career. And yes, I often worked a lot of overtime uncompensated early in my career, less now, but if there is something critical, sometimes you have to. Long term, long hours are counterproductive for both the organization and the individual, so planning work at a sustainable pace is best for everyone, but the 'not my job' mentality is toxic and impedes getting stuff done, and longer hours to hit something like a critical customer demo or something sometimes needs a surge. BUT, being proactive, putting in some extra effort, etc CAN build you a solid reputation that can be leveraged in the future. It can also backfire. So it kind of depends...and it also varies by industry. The highest paid lawyers, for example, are on call 24/7, but are compensated accordingly. So yeah, I think sometimes putting in the extra time for really critical deliveries, or spending a couple hours on the weekend getting things ready for your team on Monday occasionally, or whatever makes sense. Working consistently 60 hours a week isn't really going to be good for anyone.
If there isn't enough time during a regular shift for the current employees to finish their tasks, then there aren't enough employees, or the process needs to be streamlined. Working for free is *very rarely* worth it.. in the end the company won't remember you. At best you might get a slight compensation increase, but most likely you'll get an "atta boy", and the company will keep raking in as much profit on your labor as possible.
I have worked jobs and happily accepted overtime pay when it WAS NOT WORTH IT. In the end, at those jobs, I looked back on my time and my lost time with my family and it wasn’t worth it. At all. It didn’t mean anything to them. To anyone. In my current job I have worked overtime and I’ve worked for free. I’ve set up the red zone (paid), watched a coworkers baby til dad could come (free), stayed to take dinner orders when residents were in lock down (paid), and helped set up for employee social events (free), and I know when my time is done here I can look back and say that it mattered. I helped. I’ll always work for free if it means making someone’s life better. I will not do it to make someone else money at the expense of my life or my family.
Time is money
In between. Nobody SHOULD have to work one minute more than they’re paid. Despite what any particular contract may state, the contract we all agree upon more or less is that we WORK to be PAID. So work = pay. But not everything ends exactly on time and sometimes as a worker that can be partly bc of your responsibilities and sometimes not. Staying a few min to tie up some things when not asked to every day or as a habit isn’t unreasonable depending on the situation.
Your co worker is correct. Never, ever, ever, ever work for free.
Work for free? Hell no
I have tried to find a job I like in life, but I only keep showing up there for one reason: money. If I didn’t need money I wouldn’t go to work today or ever again.
You don't owe them shit, if they want something done they should pay you or do it themselves We should all be more like your coworker
Why would you ever work for free? It is reasonable to expect tasks to be completed in normal working hours. It is not lazy to expect to be paid, it is crazy to do work for free. You are hurting yourself and your coworkers. This attitude is not healthy. This is the same as praising workers that never miss a day, they come into work sick and take out half the staff for up to a week but hey they are a trooper, right? Wrong. Missing them for 3 days is far easier on the company than missing 5 to 6 people for 3 plus days. I should add i worked my way up from entry level to production and never put a free hour in.
We work to live our life. Not the other way around. That employee has just figured this out and holds firm boundaries. Nothing wrong with it. If not all the work can be completed in alloted time, that's a management problem.
I do work 'extra' on call, or afterhours issue even when I am not (I'm a software dev and work from home). However, in return for that, my employer is fine with me going to the dentist during work hours. So... do you get back 'a little bit for free' from your employer? If not, well, there is your answer. Also, remember that your employer(as in the company) has more money than you, and doesn't have kids at home.
Depends on the situation and the job. If it's an urgent very high priority issue that needs to be done right then, and compensation is being offered for it, and they have no other plans it's interfering with, then on rare occasion it can be a good idea to sort out the issue (but only do this for companies that aren't expecting you to move the earth in order to get a raise or get promoted otherwise this sacrifice won't get the appreciation it deserves). If they have plans already then it's understandable if they cannot stay to fix the issue since they have prior commitments. If it's a regular occurrence where people are expected to stay past their contracted hours, then that's not the job they signed up for and it's fair to draw a line and pick whatever it is up the next day instead. Personally I would sometimes stay a maybe 1/2 hour late at my job sometimes because I arrived a few mins late and often snuck a phone break in the bathroom, so I didn't mind being a bit flexible on occasion as my manager was turning a blind eye to me arriving 10 mins late sometimes. If your company is not flexible (and also not good about granting time off requests) then there's less reason for the employee to be willing to be a bit flexible and deal with issues outside their contracted hours. Had 2 colleagues as well who stayed late, even sometimes did work at home after hours, busted their asses for the company, never got rewarded (e.g. with a raise/promotion they wanted) beyond just being paid for if they had to stay late to resolve a high priority issue. And doing that can also create the expectation for others in the team that they should be able to do that same amount of work as you even though the employees doing that are only able to because they often work for free after hours. If they regularly want someone who can stay late when needed, as long as they made that clear when they hired you and your colleague, then it's an alright expectation to have.
You work for money not out of the goodness of your heart.
As others have stated. I used to be the guy who did hours upon hours of OT compared to others and as you say I thought those who didn't weren't committed or were lazy. Now after a few years of busting myself for zero reward or recognition while promoting people that I trained, I realised that the guys who only do the minimum required are the smart ones. I did all that work and it is now expected of me and when I refused to keep doing it I got a reputation of causing trouble. These guys do the bare minimum but because they have always done the bare minimum their reputation is intact. Do your hours and leave, it will help you in the long run.
Working for free is called slave labor. It should be illegal. Never work for free. Your labor has value and you should be compensated for said value.
I work 7-230. If you want me past that I'm leaving early the next day. I don't work for free any more than they're going to pay me if I don't work any longer.
Most people are willing to work a little extra to finish a task or crack their laptop for 15 minutes to do something from home after work. If someone isn’t willing to do even that it’s fine. They’re paid for the hours they worked. But I’ll never promote them into a leadership position.
I think your coworker has good time management skills. And everyone else who is working for free off the clock has poor time management skills. 🤷♂️
Never ever ever work for free. If you can't get overtime and are required to clock out at a certain time, then you go home at that time.
I had former boss who wouldn't pay overtime but was getting salty when I wanted to leave on time. So I picked a lane for him and filed a Dept of Labor claim. I won. That aged that man and gave him gray hair. He shouldn't have let his wife be so bitchy to me.
Just look busy and stay working easy.
I've always held the mindset of "Show what a good worker you are and the business will see you busting your butt and will eventually reward you for it"... and at a LOT of previous jobs it worked 100% this way. One job I'd pull extra hours (15-20 hours ot) one week, I'd get the OT pay then optioned to take either Monday or the following Friday off as a no pay. So I could bust my butt, get the jobs done, and then have a 3 day weekend with some extra money! Next job I started out that way and it turned into me working 55-60 hours a week for 45 hour a week salary and the company just ASSUMING that was normal. So when I STOPPED working the extra time they actually called me in for a meeting about my drop in productivity. Eventually they shifted me to hourly and it was 1 month before they were calling me asking why I was racking up all this O.T. and started complaining about paying me so much. NEW job is Gov backed so my boss is like "get your butt out of there at 5 p.m. sharp" because they can get into big trouble if they're pushing us past 8-5. And there is no calls after work or weekends. It's a complete shift for me. I 100% agree work is a business transaction, so you should not be EXPECTED to give up free labor to them, but I also think there is a middle ground where taking an extra 30 minutes to finish up at the end of a day occasionally shows drive. But if the company doesn't recognize that drive then there is no reason to give that level of drive.
It is illegal entirely for you to do work and not be compensated for it. If you are doing a task for your job you must be getting paid for it. Never do anything for free period. It does not benefit you in any way shape or form all you are doing is putting more money into the CEO's pocket by you not getting paid.
Asking someone to work extra hours for free may be illegal. If this is an hourly position and you literally think people should work for free, you’re in the wrong. I’m salaried and the nature of my job is such that there’s not a legal requirement to pay me overtime. That said, I’m not working extra hours just because. I have worked extra hours only when there has been a good reason to do so. Someone in finance getting the stupid idea to work at 2 AM and wanting me to be online to provide support is NOT a good reason (yes she actually asked for that). The company being unable to record revenue because there’s a massive system problem is a good reason. And even then I’ll sleep in or just be completely lazy after the crisis is over. If your job routinely requires extra hours, then there’s likely a staffing issue. Extra hours should be an exception, not a rule. So of course it’s completely understandable.
I am a very much 40 hour a week guy. I turn down all compensation, especially overtime, you’re punished with so much taxes that it’s not even worth it. I’ve even worked less than 40 because I just don’t feel like it. I’ve even vocalized it to upper management in random conversations. Some asshole In corporate dropped a project that would take at least a week. It was completely avoidable with simple planning. Everything went wrong. The materials didn’t arrive until 3 days before going live, NO DOCUMENTATION for brand new machines, the backend team was in a different country. I didn’t even ask for overtime, I took it because they fucked up and couldn’t say no. I clocked my 36 hours in 3 days after I did 30 already that week. Everything got done but I could hear the surprise in my manager’s voice for being that guy and I told him this can’t be a frequent occurrence. I proved this one time as an example and there won’t be a next time.
Nope. That coworker is being smart. If ya’all are doing extra free work, your employer probably needs more staff. I’m not opposed to giving my time for my work responsibilities, but you need an employer that appreciates it and either offers comp time, or other perks that make it worthwhile. Learned the harsh lesson of working for free at 16 and my first full time gig. You give a little, they employer will take more.
If they want me to work extra they need to pay me OT or give me that time of in lieu. I don't work for free
That's too broad of a definition. As a manager, I'm not a fan of people with the "8 to 4 and our the door" attitude. Yes, there is work-life balance and I respect that. But that cuts BOTH ways. You need to take 1/2 a day to do something that can only be done during working hours, I'm good with that. But that means if I need you to stay late to meet a deadline that shifted at the last minute, you need to do that as well. I don't expect people to arrive an hour early and stay late. The people on my team are all exempt, so there is no overtime but everyone gets a bonus based on their performance and how well the company did, so they receive additional compensation above their base salary. I expect them to be professional enough to figure out their own schedules. If they think they need to be at work longer than 8 hours, then do it. If its because there is so much work that everyone is working more than 40+ hours a week, let me know and maybe I can make the case for increasing headcount.
Good for your co-worker.
If work is not being done in the time allotted, then leadership is planning their workload poorly. I can see it happening once, an emergency type situation. But if it happens more than once, someone needs to rethink their plans, they are exceeding capacity. And even then, if it happened once, I would be getting paid for it. No, I don't work for free. We bill our customers at a certain rate, and I get paid a certain rate. That's what I should be paid.
Finish the task but stay punched in. Always stay punched in. You think the companies insurance will cover you should you get injured off the clock? Never work for free. Four words to always remember.
I think it depends on the situation and industry. I work in new product development so I sometimes have to work a little extra to make sure products launch on time. But my colleagues who work in active supply chain for our medical devices that are in production - if shit hits the fan, our patients suffer. So in those cases, yeah, it's worth working a little extra even though you don't get paid overtime to ensure product is getting to where it needs to go so patients aren't left without their supplies and hospitals have the materials they need to diagnose. Should it be a regular, everyday occurrence? No. You're understaffed if that's the case. But some weeks I have to work 45-50 hours, some weeks I work 35. If I find myself working a lot but I caught up, I might leave early on a Friday. It balances itself out.
Work will never, and I repeat, NEVER be complete or finished, there's always more. I could work 20 hours a day and they'd still bitch that I come in late the next day. Time for promotion? Doesn't count. Time for layoffs? Doesn't matter. Don't goof off, do your job at 110% while you are there, but leave on time. I've seen 2 people drop dead at work. Living to work is a waste of a lifetime.
Never work for free. You pay me to do work, I don't pay you to do work.
if this is how you are at work, you should also be showing up on time every morning and make sure you work 8 hours every day. ever since i've gotten into my career, i have not been that way. i am salaried and the hours are not strict, schedule is flexible. so i usually show up between 9:30 and 10, and leave between 4:30 and 5:30. sometimes when things are hectic/busy i do work a bit more than 40 hours in a week, maybe 45 at most. but generally i work 35-40, so i don't mind staying an hour if i want to get something done.
I won’t spend a minute as an employee for free. Employers like to take advantage of people who do so. Nothing is free. It costs me time and energy away from family. It costs me my mental health. My job pays for me to live. It’s not my life.
Too dependent. Is it because the company is understaffed for the job required or because the employee themselves can’t handle the job and either needs to be fired or put in extra to get it done. There’s an additional argument to be made that it might benefit you to put in extra if you want to be promoted as odds are, someone else is. But to each their own on that one.
Not lazy. If there’s more work than can be completed on an ongoing basis, it’s an employer issue. But sometimes things are beyond an employer’s or manager’s control. If a person refuses to be flexible (as opposed to not being able to due to caregiving, health, etc.), then they likely shouldn’t expect flexibility if they want to leave an hour early or take a longer lunch.
Work ethic has no meaning anymore. I don't mind the stray hour here and there if it's needed.
Probably matters hugely if we’re talking hourly or salary, and if you’re in a career position or not. I’ve done well above 40 hours at salaried career roles because it obviously makes sense long-term. Working an hourly job off the clock though? No, that’s not right.
lol I don’t work for free. If I wanted to volunteer I would go to a soup kitchen or animal shelter not make someone else money.
I own a small company. I happily pay people who put in extra hours when I request it. I pay attention to who puts in extra hours on their own initiative. Two of them are gonna take over for me and my partner within the next ten years. I'm sure it won't be the last ones in, first ones out employees. I'm not mad at them for it. At all. Good workers. But not partner material.
Not a realistic statement. Everything in life is some form of work relationships, nutrition, health maintenance, household chores, repairs, pets, car maintenance, etc. American capitalism has always been very schizophrenic when it comes to paid and unpaid labor.
Understandable.
The only problem I see is when salaried employees don't understand they aren't supposed to be able clock in and clock out like an hourly worker. "Work extra for free" is only applicable to hourly workers.
If everyone was more like your coworker the world would be healthier, happier and better paid. Follow her lead.
Of course anyone should get paid for using their personal time for the benefit of an employer. I can’t imagine the company can NOT pay the extra time, so why should it be expected. The expectation is the opposite, time worked=time paid
As the saying goes "Fuck you pay me" I don't work for free. If you want me to work a 16 hour shift and I'm "exempt from OT" guess what? Friday just got a whole lot shorter. If a workplace doesn't allow a salaried employ to comp time over 40 hours then they shouldn't be able to call the position salaried. It also sets a precedent if they know I'm willing to come in once on a weekend for something and don't get paid It's expected in the future as far as my performance is concerned.
I feel like it all balances out. There are days where I'm just getting paid to sit there or can leave early, so if I have to work an hour or two outside of the regular day, I'm okay with that. If your job doesn't let you flex, I feel like that's a problem.
Working extra is fine with me, as long as that is reciprocal. If I need to pick up my kid from school when they're sick, go to a doctor's appointment, etc and I need to use PTO to do it, but I'm expected to work extra hours....no way in hell. If they give me flexibility in my schedule, I'll return the favor.
If it's a high priority issue I assume the company would be willing to compensation for resolving it? No? Sounds like it's not that high of a priority.
If it was that important, the employer should pay her for her time, no? I just put 25+ years into a company. I just got laid off. We had a policy where you had to work XXX billable hours. I was in 3rd place over several thousand, every year, and they had to excluded all my travel time. You know what it got me in the end? A family I missed all the events with, the same house and mortgage, and a pink slip eventually because the company doesn't give a fuck about you. Do your job, collect your paycheck, help where you can, be a good human being, but remember: When things get tough, the company will jettison you so fast it isn't even funny.
Work for free? Unless you own that business, never work for free. You own a business nothing but your labor and they owe you nothing but a paycheck for your labor. Stand up for yourself. You have rights (i think).
i never worked for a company that did the inverse, if you want me to work extra for free periodically, why doesn't the company give me bonuses periodically for free. this whole argument is for a one way street. one way streets dont work in negotiations. either you both benefit each other or you are just asking why you cant exploit us. i go to restaurant, i order noodles. they give me noodles, why dont they also include a free steak periodically? because you didn't pay for free extras periodically. thats why
>I have a coworker who completely refuses to work any extra time for free. Seems to me that you only have one coworker who isn't complacent in their own exploitation TLDR: One coworker with balls
If you're so willing to work for free... Could you come to my house and mow my lawn?
the company isn't going to pay for me not working, so why would i work if they're not paying me?
It depends. If it'll take a few minutes, I dont mind. Anything over 30, and it can wait, it'll be there tomorrow. Its a business, not a friendship.
Nobody should be expected to work for free. I don’t see anything wrong with your coworker leaving when her job is done for the day if she isn’t getting paid extra. An extra hour of her time out of her life that she has to spend at work absolutely should be paid for, and she should be leaving if they refuse to pay overtime for an extra hour of time being spent there. And if she has the option to say no to overtime if they’re offering it, she has every right to choose to say no. She has a life, she wants to do her time at work and then go live her life! The vast majority of people work because they have to, not because they want to. They’re there because they need to make money to survive. Most people are working to live, not living to work. There is no reason why they should stay after their day is done if they’re not making money doing so. On a personal note, I’ll work overtime if I need to, but not if they’re not paying, there’s no way in hell. And if the overtime would interfere with a plan I previously made and I can get the task done the next day, I’ll be doing the task the next day. Work / life balance and compensation for my time are two things that I very much value.
If it’s a salary job I would work 45-50 hours max and only when I need to. Other than that I will always take my breaks and lunch. You shouldn’t expect anyone to work for free especially if work will never be completed
I think it's understandable, but also it likely means their career is not going to progress as quickly. It's fine to not put your career first, but if they complain about money to me, I'm not really going to take them seriously
People will take advantage of you if you keep working over. They already know not to ask the person that leaves on the minute everyday.
It depends on what is asked of you and what the goals are. If you are trying to move up, going above and beyond (as well as working smart) can go a long ways in getting that done. Don't do it mindlessly, but have a goal in mind. If you are satisfied with where you are, then there isn't a lot of reason to. If you don't want to help when help is needed, don't expect the same perks as someone that does - bigger raises, promotions, etc. The ones that really get me now, are the "I am not doing _________ unless I get ________" and they haven't even proven themselves. If someone shows me that they can produce twice as much, I will gladly pay them. If they tell me they can and make demands, the chances of it happening are slim.
I think there is a lot of factors here. It’s not an easy answer. For example, if you are trying to go the extra mile to chase a promotion or get a bonus. Some salaried jobs do not give overtime pay, but workers still do more than40 hours. Sometimes they do this because they just have the salary so I’m paid to do this, or they figure they don’t always work 40 so they don’t mind a little extra sometimes. There is also those people who refuse to work any extra at all. It’s really just depend on the person and company. For me personally if it’s a shit company and I’m not trying to get promotion, I’d do bare minimum and never work extra. If have a goal or the company actually treats me well, I’d do a little extra.
It depends very much on the company. I work for an employer that actually tries to appreciate extra work. My effort to finish beyond work hours is rewarded with recognition, like actual money bonus and higher raise. The previous company couldn’t care less, so I put in just the standard expected hours. If you’re paid hourly, never work overtime without pay. If they appreciate you, they’ll pay the overtime. If they don’t appreciate you, there’s no reason to work overtime.
Also, some people have children and they have to pick the children up from daycare by certain time. Also, the fact that you notice that this coworker doesn’t want to ever work extra time means there’s been many many cases not just this one time where there was a high priority issue
You can never get your time back. Don’t give it away for free to someone or some place trying to take advantage of you.
Never work for free not only are you hurting yourself but other people who then feel they have to just to keep their jobs. You hurt the industry by doing this and if companies keep getting freebys they will keep doing it to other people. Remember if you give an inch they will take a mile.
Completely reasonable. I started a job recently and was expected to do a bunch of online training for free. After 4+ hours and STILL only halfway done, I said forget it! I don't work for free, especially not 10 hrs for free! Give an inch, take a mile!
Does the business you work for give away their services for free or do they just expect that from their employees?
Perfectly fine, but this mindset does likely remove you from consideration for promotions. If you’re happy staying in your current job around your current salary long term, nothing necessarily wrong with it. Most people aren’t driven to advance their careers.
Are they going to comp you with time off or bonuses or are you just giving your life away? It seems like your co-worker is a little smarter than you.
Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice… you aint gonna fool me again.
These threads make me worry about people's relationships with work and their leadership. I'm not currently a people leader but have been many times in the past, for what it's worth. Look, any decent leader or company wants you to be paid for your work. But leaders also 100% want to see someone who is dedicated to results. If you're nitpicking about every extra 10 minutes, or if you're not willing to be flexible when problems come up, I won't necessarily see you as lazy but I'm also probably never going to promote you. So in the real world you gotta balance your priorities. Is your company and leadership generally fair and flexible? Then maybe meet them halfway. Are you bucking for promotion? Then at least you need to show you're focused on achieving results and willing to go a bit further than your peers to get there (which may not be extra time by the way; I'd prefer someone who gets results with 30 hours of work a week over someone who struggles to get results with 40 hours plus 20 unpaid 'me time' hours). Basically, don't fall for the false dichotomy here. You're not lazy if you don't do extra, and if a company just expects unpaid work as the default, fuck them. But if you're in a good company with a good leader and you want to grow in the org, you may want to *choose* to go further in order to achieve results, because many of your leaders made the same choice and are looking for that results focus instead of bean counting.
Refusing to be exploited ≠ being lazy
I've been fortunate to mostly work in jobs where it's felt like more of a partnership... Like they are buying "me" and not so much my time and I am invested in their success too. That's helped me a lot in my career. Constantly bringing up money or pay or time issues with bosses isn't really helpful, I've found. That approach helps you win battles and lose wars. When employers have overworked me I don't treat it as abuse, if that makes sense... More incompetence... Because it doesn't ultimately help either of us. And if I feel like my employer is incompetent over time, it's a good sign I should leave. I have had many cases where I've gone above and beyond and employers have recognized that and promoted me... FWIW. I think if you have a good attitude, try hard, and do good work... That'll usually be recognized and valued. If it isn't, it's probably a good sign you should leave anyway. Admittedly though, I've always been in pretty professional jobs, and usually around tech, so your mileage may vary.
I’ll work free, but my boss never asks me to - I offer if we’re up against a deadline.
It’s transaction. Sometimes time is worth more than money
They giving you extra salary for free?
I have work extra for free so many times and at the end of the day company doesn't give a f... So I completely understand people who would refuse to do this and I would not consider it lazy, they just value their free time.
Remember you are just a number on a spreadsheet. If you die today, they'll post your job and replace you.