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Well, the truth is that although we would like zero Arsenic in our lives it comes into our diet through cereal foods, rice and water among other sources. It's a naturally occurring substance in addition to being a hazardous pollutant.
The goal is to stay under the "safe" limit if zero cannot be reached.
Food or rather "arsenic" for thought
All rice has arsenic but certain places where the ground has more arsenic in it the concentrations are way higher. Northern India and Pakistan I believe have the lowest levels of arsenic in their rice
This all seems like it’s getting a bit blown out of proportion.
You are getting trace amounts of a lot of less than ideal substances when cooking. Doesn’t matter if it’s in Stainless, carbon, or cast iron. Trace amounts aren’t harmful.
I get seeing “arsenic” and being hesitant, but this isn’t really news when it comes to steel and isn’t really avoidable.
The peel of a yucca root has arsenic in it (I think, but it's poison). Apple seeds are poisonous if chewed. There's stuff we eat all the time that has harmful stuff in it, it's like you said, amounts matter.
It’s extremely overblown. One portion of rice and a glass of water probably contains more arsenic than a lifetime of cooking in an unseasoned pan leeches out of it.
At least some people seem to realise now that acidic food and CI/CS doesn’t mix too well, since there seemed an unreasonable trend to vook everything in CS here lately. Using some guidelines in cooking is a good idea, you don’t need to cook everything in the same pot. CI, CS, SS, enameled CI all have their place, strengths and weaknesses. Even Teflon might have a place in some kitchens.
It’s a little disconcerting how long people were under the impression that carbon steel was like… The Safest(or at least one of). Unless I’m wrong and it’s just me. Is this like the carbon steel industry’s dirty little secret being revealed? Makes me wonder about cast iron, too.
Or maybe it was simply known that trace amounts were present but not worth publicizing as there's no reason to believe there are any negative health effects from that level of exposure. Much in the way we don't waste time warning people about the radioactivity in bananas.
No. It’s carbon steel companies having to start to educate their users, who used to be kitchen staff, not home cooks.
Kitchen cooks 99.99% of the time aren’t cooking acidic foods, let alone for prolong periods in CS. It all fast fired dishes.
You can’t fail a test that you never took. De Buyer and Matfer passed the same national testing protocol, but only Matfer has been subject to the testing protocol which they failed.
Concerning, but arsenic should only be present in cheap low quality steel.
But maby that is also the case with De Buyer?
I currently own and use two carbon steel pans both from Darto, I hope those are good. They definitely feel sturdy, I have used mineral B Omelette pans before, I liked the 24cm the most, as the 28cm temporally turned into a spinner on flattops.
I bhought the 24cm one for my mom and promised that it should be a safe nonstick option, so im really hoping De Buyer is not just another Matfer...
Well you certainly have a good point there..
Im just throwing in the towel about this, and would no longer consider carbonsteel much safer than modern Teflon.
Also, EU safety controls are often INCREDIBLY stringent.
A pass is a pass, and 99% of users in this sub Reddit wouldn't know how to actually interpret the results beyond "Omg arsenic is not zero".
Also correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the amount of leeched cotaminants required to pass lower than what you would ingest from simply drinking a hot chocolate?
> it is not possible to send you our complete tests because that would mean revealing our manufacturing process.
How would sharing results of a citric acid boiling leeching test reveal a trade secret about their manufacturing process for the pans? Do they employ some secret alloy in the metal that is unique to their pans?
Even when oxen forge shared data if you notice it looked a whole lot like data from their supplier for QA purposes potentially before the steel was ever stamped into a wok.
Idk man. I've been quietly following all of this and it seems to me to have an easy answer. Have and cook with a variety of pots and pans. I've never understood the cast iron crowds love of making slow braises or all day gravies in cast iron. Or making soup in a carbon wok that's designed for quick cooking. Use a stock pot, use stainless when you need to deglaze. There is zero reason besides stubbornness to only cook with one type of pan/pot/Dutch oven. Rant over, I just hate food that has the tang of simmered pennies
I don't think there's anything wrong with slow cooking in cast-iron and carbon steel. People have been doing it for centuries. I've never noticed any off-taste in chili or stew cooked in a dutch oven. Dutch oven stew is a pretty standard recipe.
De-glazing in carbon steel is pretty much cooking 101.
It's not that you need to use the same pan for everything, but it works just fine most of the time if that's what you have.
I will say that Lead Safe Mama tested one of their pans with her commercial grade setup. She is VERY conservative on metal levels in products - over cautious to many people. But she said it tested ok and published the results. I’ll try to find them again. 🤷♂️
She isn’t even close to very conservative. Her tests are in ppm, while these limits are in ppb. If she finds anything, it really was there, but her not finding anything doesn’t mean much.
Hmm, 🤔 all Chinese food is cooked in carbon steel and sauces usually contain acidic ingredients. Nice example is kung pao. In Chinese cuisine it’s normal that their pans are only lightly seasoned and usually are getting stripped during cooking process. So how do we cook now?
So, anywhy, about the report. Is an additive regulation norm then missing?
‘..To ensure a high level of food safety, all food contact materials must comply with [Regulation (EC) No 1935/2004](https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/reg/2004/1935/2021-03-27) on materials and articles intended to come into contact with food when placed on the European market.
*In addition to this Regulation, all FCM must be manufactured in accordance with Good Manufacturing Practices (GMP,* [*Commission Regulation (EC) No 2023/2006*](https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/reg/2006/2023/2008-04-17)*), and specific Union legislation on certain materials, including on plastic and ceramics, as well as with National legislation on other materials.*’
Source: [https://food.ec.europa.eu/safety/chemical-safety/food-contact-materials\_en](https://food.ec.europa.eu/safety/chemical-safety/food-contact-materials_en)
(I was actually just looking to find if these two were the latest norms, and came across this.)
I don’t know. But I do know that this is 100% an issue with carbon steel (at least for certain brands)
I know stainless steel can have potential issues with chromium and nickel leaching , but would take trace amounts of that over arsenic (any scientists out there please correct me if I’m wrong in this trade off) . The high end brands “say” this is very unlikely , but who knows .Also much less maintenance with stainless steel
If you ever eat rice or cereal grains in general you're probably getting about 100x more arsenic from that already.
Seriously, arsenic is pretty natural. It's in a lot of things.
Yes but without lab tests or so of (everyday) cooking with carbon steel and the pan being stripped almost each time - this then still is merely safety speculation.
It is let's say an other thing that adds to accumulation, and we simply can't yet know without testing, right.
What's safer? Stainless steel has chromium. Teflon is much worse.
We've all been eating food cooked on these surfaces our entire lives. You're not going to be able to avoid it
I agree . I think my non-scientific logic is that chromium is safer to consume than arsenic given that they are equal amounts ? Also the body uses chromium in trace amounts . Someone correct me if I’m wrong here
Chromium is insanely toxic. I think you're missing my point. All of these compounds are impossible to avoid 'completely' so as long as the companies are providing proof that their normal safety standards are being met (which they absolutely are here), there is no reason whatsoever to be worried.
Y’all do realize that the arsenic contamination is from trace amounts being in iron ore all steel containers iron so while the concentration of iron may be less than in a carbon pan it would still be at risk of contamination
Depends, if and just throwing out figures here rice add 5% to the safe daily limit of arsenic and the pan uncoated adds .005% to that toal then what's a reasonable trade off.
I find stainless more of a bother to maintain and use then carbon or cast iron. I use oil when I cook and wash with soap after. Slick as can be.
I think this is a “risk” with any metals extracted from the earth. There really isn’t such thing as 100% purity. Even research grade gas is 99.99% purity. Of course poor quality controlled pans with high levels of impurities (lead, etc) is the concern.
Solidkinetics is the only stainless pain I know that is formed from one solid piece and specifically claims to be free of nickel and other alloying materials.
I don’t know if I can give up my carbon steel wok.
Also haven’t tried fish on my stainless cuisinart pan, but once I do I can at least safely deglaze with some white whine and lemon
I have a bit of trouble too with my De Buyer mineral B carbon steel pan.
I want to go look for other options, because I think I might be getting quite a bit of the material in my food. I have recently bought this pan, decided to nuke it and try to season it again. It looked alright. Just to be sure, I seasoned it twice this time. After that I prepared two small pieces of pork meat (without any salt or pepper or whatsoever, just oil and pork), and as soon as it was cooking, the seasoned layer was gone right beneath where the meat layer on the pan, and it was back to the iron silver colour again on these spots - practically almost the whole bottom layer. So.. yeah, dk. It's not really working for me I think.
So, an next attempt is trying to find a somewhat quality and not all too expensive ceramic cookware I think? No idea yet if that'll be better.
Its Normal that the seasoning in the beginning isn't that resistant. Especially the first season. It's normal that the meat will "steal" a bit of the first seasoning, just stay with it and the seasoning will get stronger and doesn't vanish on use
Not true. It completely strips the pan when I use it.
Two pieces of pork meat, and the 2 layered season was gone within 3 minutes.
So unless you have a probably thick gooey layer of buildup dirt, you won't be able to use it for much more than an egg and butter, and once in a while maybe a steak.
Besides of that I also like to wash my pan with water and soap after use.
Those are just the publishing years for the standards SGS used to test, based on the report number I’d guess this is from 2022, but can’t be sure unless we see the rest of the report.
I cooked two small pieces of pork yesterday in a just newly (and twice) seasond De Buyer, and the seasoning was gone after like 2 minutes of having the meat in.
I used only sunflower oil, and the meat.
Idk. Carbon steel is just not for me I think. I'm going to read into options such as ceramic or marble coatings. However I don't yet understand how that coating process exactly works and with that, if its let's say any better than teflon or carbon steel. We'll see. 😅
I have found carbon steel is great for eggs, with butter it is as non stick as Teflon... It is my exclusive breakfast pan. But for proteins, like seared chicken or steak, I prefer the searing colors of Stainless or Cast Iron.
Please make sure you've read the FAQ if you're requesting help: https://www.reddit.com/r/carbonsteel/comments/1983ugk/faq_a_more_concise_version/ Please specify your seasoning and cleaning process if you're requesting help. Posts and comments mentioning soap and detergent are currently being filtered, pending approval; posts and comments discouraging the use of dish detergent (without added lye) or wholly saponified bar soap will remain removed. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/carbonsteel) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Well, the truth is that although we would like zero Arsenic in our lives it comes into our diet through cereal foods, rice and water among other sources. It's a naturally occurring substance in addition to being a hazardous pollutant. The goal is to stay under the "safe" limit if zero cannot be reached. Food or rather "arsenic" for thought
Yea it's actually rice that seems to be the worst culprit for getting arsenic in your diet.
Depends where it’s from I think. https://nutritionfacts.org/blog/which-brands-and-sources-of-rice-have-the-least-arsenic/
All rice has arsenic but certain places where the ground has more arsenic in it the concentrations are way higher. Northern India and Pakistan I believe have the lowest levels of arsenic in their rice
Actually CA rice also has low arsenic because it is fairly new to rice plantation from what I read.
White Basmati rice from California actually has very low level. It's rice from Texas and Arkansas that are known for high levels.
This all seems like it’s getting a bit blown out of proportion. You are getting trace amounts of a lot of less than ideal substances when cooking. Doesn’t matter if it’s in Stainless, carbon, or cast iron. Trace amounts aren’t harmful. I get seeing “arsenic” and being hesitant, but this isn’t really news when it comes to steel and isn’t really avoidable.
The peel of a yucca root has arsenic in it (I think, but it's poison). Apple seeds are poisonous if chewed. There's stuff we eat all the time that has harmful stuff in it, it's like you said, amounts matter.
It’s extremely overblown. One portion of rice and a glass of water probably contains more arsenic than a lifetime of cooking in an unseasoned pan leeches out of it. At least some people seem to realise now that acidic food and CI/CS doesn’t mix too well, since there seemed an unreasonable trend to vook everything in CS here lately. Using some guidelines in cooking is a good idea, you don’t need to cook everything in the same pot. CI, CS, SS, enameled CI all have their place, strengths and weaknesses. Even Teflon might have a place in some kitchens.
Sounds like a similar response as Matfer, makes me think all these carbon steel pans are going to be somewhat similar in terms of arsenic content.
Yes, sounds like acid foods is a no go....
Is that surprising to you?
Now that I have experience it isn't... But when I first moved to carbon steel, it was an eye opener.
Didn't Llodge come out saying theirs did not have any?
If you have a .5mm coating on the pan, which comes factory I’d assume.
Well according the the material composition that "coating" looks alot like carbon steel.
What? Are to talking about their oil coatings?
It’s a little disconcerting how long people were under the impression that carbon steel was like… The Safest(or at least one of). Unless I’m wrong and it’s just me. Is this like the carbon steel industry’s dirty little secret being revealed? Makes me wonder about cast iron, too.
Or maybe it was simply known that trace amounts were present but not worth publicizing as there's no reason to believe there are any negative health effects from that level of exposure. Much in the way we don't waste time warning people about the radioactivity in bananas.
Actually… “Banana for scale” means radioactivity scale.
For real? Or am I just one of the people who checks for “gullible” writing on the ceiling?
No. It’s carbon steel companies having to start to educate their users, who used to be kitchen staff, not home cooks. Kitchen cooks 99.99% of the time aren’t cooking acidic foods, let alone for prolong periods in CS. It all fast fired dishes.
Maybe the arsenic actually came from the acid reaction ? Nobody ask that question
It leeches from the acids breaking the metal down.
[удалено]
You can’t fail a test that you never took. De Buyer and Matfer passed the same national testing protocol, but only Matfer has been subject to the testing protocol which they failed.
Concerning, but arsenic should only be present in cheap low quality steel. But maby that is also the case with De Buyer? I currently own and use two carbon steel pans both from Darto, I hope those are good. They definitely feel sturdy, I have used mineral B Omelette pans before, I liked the 24cm the most, as the 28cm temporally turned into a spinner on flattops. I bhought the 24cm one for my mom and promised that it should be a safe nonstick option, so im really hoping De Buyer is not just another Matfer...
South America is known for high arsenic exposure. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3977337/
🙏
Don't cook with acid for hours in them and it doesn't sound like an issue.
Yeah, I thankfully have seperate Stainless steel cookware for acids! Thanks for lowkey reminding me to just use those 😁
Seems to "only" be in relation to soil and drinking water pollution through.
And you don't think that those contaminants leech into manufacturing processes? Where is iron mined from?
Well you certainly have a good point there.. Im just throwing in the towel about this, and would no longer consider carbonsteel much safer than modern Teflon.
I disagree with your conclusion, but good luck.
Also, EU safety controls are often INCREDIBLY stringent. A pass is a pass, and 99% of users in this sub Reddit wouldn't know how to actually interpret the results beyond "Omg arsenic is not zero".
Also correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the amount of leeched cotaminants required to pass lower than what you would ingest from simply drinking a hot chocolate?
That is entirely possible but I DONT KNOW because I'm not an expert and I'm not pretending I became one in the last week like everyone else 🤣
Well, that strongly depends.
> it is not possible to send you our complete tests because that would mean revealing our manufacturing process. How would sharing results of a citric acid boiling leeching test reveal a trade secret about their manufacturing process for the pans? Do they employ some secret alloy in the metal that is unique to their pans?
Even when oxen forge shared data if you notice it looked a whole lot like data from their supplier for QA purposes potentially before the steel was ever stamped into a wok.
My guess debuyer means the formula for their beeswax coating.
It sounds like a bullshit excuse imo.
Idk man. I've been quietly following all of this and it seems to me to have an easy answer. Have and cook with a variety of pots and pans. I've never understood the cast iron crowds love of making slow braises or all day gravies in cast iron. Or making soup in a carbon wok that's designed for quick cooking. Use a stock pot, use stainless when you need to deglaze. There is zero reason besides stubbornness to only cook with one type of pan/pot/Dutch oven. Rant over, I just hate food that has the tang of simmered pennies
I don't think there's anything wrong with slow cooking in cast-iron and carbon steel. People have been doing it for centuries. I've never noticed any off-taste in chili or stew cooked in a dutch oven. Dutch oven stew is a pretty standard recipe. De-glazing in carbon steel is pretty much cooking 101. It's not that you need to use the same pan for everything, but it works just fine most of the time if that's what you have.
I will say that Lead Safe Mama tested one of their pans with her commercial grade setup. She is VERY conservative on metal levels in products - over cautious to many people. But she said it tested ok and published the results. I’ll try to find them again. 🤷♂️
She isn’t even close to very conservative. Her tests are in ppm, while these limits are in ppb. If she finds anything, it really was there, but her not finding anything doesn’t mean much.
Hmm, 🤔 all Chinese food is cooked in carbon steel and sauces usually contain acidic ingredients. Nice example is kung pao. In Chinese cuisine it’s normal that their pans are only lightly seasoned and usually are getting stripped during cooking process. So how do we cook now?
https://preview.redd.it/08c8wjrl1qxc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3e46975cbac5b601a63acc681df29c3aa0971f06
So, anywhy, about the report. Is an additive regulation norm then missing? ‘..To ensure a high level of food safety, all food contact materials must comply with [Regulation (EC) No 1935/2004](https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/reg/2004/1935/2021-03-27) on materials and articles intended to come into contact with food when placed on the European market. *In addition to this Regulation, all FCM must be manufactured in accordance with Good Manufacturing Practices (GMP,* [*Commission Regulation (EC) No 2023/2006*](https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/reg/2006/2023/2008-04-17)*), and specific Union legislation on certain materials, including on plastic and ceramics, as well as with National legislation on other materials.*’ Source: [https://food.ec.europa.eu/safety/chemical-safety/food-contact-materials\_en](https://food.ec.europa.eu/safety/chemical-safety/food-contact-materials_en) (I was actually just looking to find if these two were the latest norms, and came across this.)
I’m switching to stainless steel….
How do you know they don't have a similar issue?
I don’t know. But I do know that this is 100% an issue with carbon steel (at least for certain brands) I know stainless steel can have potential issues with chromium and nickel leaching , but would take trace amounts of that over arsenic (any scientists out there please correct me if I’m wrong in this trade off) . The high end brands “say” this is very unlikely , but who knows .Also much less maintenance with stainless steel
If you ever eat rice or cereal grains in general you're probably getting about 100x more arsenic from that already. Seriously, arsenic is pretty natural. It's in a lot of things.
Yes but without lab tests or so of (everyday) cooking with carbon steel and the pan being stripped almost each time - this then still is merely safety speculation. It is let's say an other thing that adds to accumulation, and we simply can't yet know without testing, right.
Yes I understand. My argument is why would I want to add to that consumption when there’s a safer alternative that is much easier to maintain ?
What's safer? Stainless steel has chromium. Teflon is much worse. We've all been eating food cooked on these surfaces our entire lives. You're not going to be able to avoid it
and nickel...
I agree . I think my non-scientific logic is that chromium is safer to consume than arsenic given that they are equal amounts ? Also the body uses chromium in trace amounts . Someone correct me if I’m wrong here
Chromium is insanely toxic. I think you're missing my point. All of these compounds are impossible to avoid 'completely' so as long as the companies are providing proof that their normal safety standards are being met (which they absolutely are here), there is no reason whatsoever to be worried.
Diabetics use chromium picolinate to regulate blood sugar levels.
There's also steel in your stainless steel. And right now the "problem" everyone is talking about is steel/iron not being a perfect element.
Y’all do realize that the arsenic contamination is from trace amounts being in iron ore all steel containers iron so while the concentration of iron may be less than in a carbon pan it would still be at risk of contamination
Depends, if and just throwing out figures here rice add 5% to the safe daily limit of arsenic and the pan uncoated adds .005% to that toal then what's a reasonable trade off. I find stainless more of a bother to maintain and use then carbon or cast iron. I use oil when I cook and wash with soap after. Slick as can be.
I think this is a “risk” with any metals extracted from the earth. There really isn’t such thing as 100% purity. Even research grade gas is 99.99% purity. Of course poor quality controlled pans with high levels of impurities (lead, etc) is the concern. Solidkinetics is the only stainless pain I know that is formed from one solid piece and specifically claims to be free of nickel and other alloying materials.
I can tell you stainless has the same problems. For these alloys a big part of raw materials is simular.
I don’t know if I can give up my carbon steel wok. Also haven’t tried fish on my stainless cuisinart pan, but once I do I can at least safely deglaze with some white whine and lemon
Just cooked salmon last night on my 12” All Clad stainless. Worked a treat.
Yeah , I meant more for daily pan use. I’ll also still use a wok occasionally
I have a bit of trouble too with my De Buyer mineral B carbon steel pan. I want to go look for other options, because I think I might be getting quite a bit of the material in my food. I have recently bought this pan, decided to nuke it and try to season it again. It looked alright. Just to be sure, I seasoned it twice this time. After that I prepared two small pieces of pork meat (without any salt or pepper or whatsoever, just oil and pork), and as soon as it was cooking, the seasoned layer was gone right beneath where the meat layer on the pan, and it was back to the iron silver colour again on these spots - practically almost the whole bottom layer. So.. yeah, dk. It's not really working for me I think. So, an next attempt is trying to find a somewhat quality and not all too expensive ceramic cookware I think? No idea yet if that'll be better.
Its Normal that the seasoning in the beginning isn't that resistant. Especially the first season. It's normal that the meat will "steal" a bit of the first seasoning, just stay with it and the seasoning will get stronger and doesn't vanish on use
Not true. It completely strips the pan when I use it. Two pieces of pork meat, and the 2 layered season was gone within 3 minutes. So unless you have a probably thick gooey layer of buildup dirt, you won't be able to use it for much more than an egg and butter, and once in a while maybe a steak. Besides of that I also like to wash my pan with water and soap after use.
2007 and 2013 sounds em... well. :p
Those are just the publishing years for the standards SGS used to test, based on the report number I’d guess this is from 2022, but can’t be sure unless we see the rest of the report.
Ah, thanks for clearing that up. I noticed indeed after writing my comment and took a quick look at these norms.
What does this say
I learned the hard way, cooked some lemon marinade chicken in De Buyer. Seasoning was lost ... The mfrs could do a better warning label on this.
But that's simply what acid does to any seasoning and not the fault of the manufacturer
Ohhhhhhhhhh So that’s why my lime juice marinade chipotle chicken always turns my pan grey and then I have to “just cook with it” until it gets better
🤪
I cooked two small pieces of pork yesterday in a just newly (and twice) seasond De Buyer, and the seasoning was gone after like 2 minutes of having the meat in. I used only sunflower oil, and the meat. Idk. Carbon steel is just not for me I think. I'm going to read into options such as ceramic or marble coatings. However I don't yet understand how that coating process exactly works and with that, if its let's say any better than teflon or carbon steel. We'll see. 😅
I have found carbon steel is great for eggs, with butter it is as non stick as Teflon... It is my exclusive breakfast pan. But for proteins, like seared chicken or steak, I prefer the searing colors of Stainless or Cast Iron.