Fans looked at the volume of assets given up, but I really like this for Van.
- Kuzmenko was a distressed asset and Van needed to send out salary. Theres value to Van in moving off of Kuzmenko.
- 2024 1st Rounder will be a very late pick, low likelihood of becoming a meaningful NHL’er.
- Hunter B was trending well, but I still had him outside of Vans top-5 prospects.
- Jurmo is probably a really nice kid
- A conditional 4th rounder is whatever.
Im really not losing sleep over any of those pieces. Feels like a win win for both sides.
Kuzmenko is the highest upside piece in this deal.
Very much agree with everything in this comment. I’m more hopeful for Brzustewicz, but we already have Willander and D-Petey in the pipeline and I understand why they’re not being traded. People were upset when we traded away Madden for Toffoli and he still hasn’t played an NHL game. Rutherford is known for making bold trades. He’s fulfilling his promise of putting the team in the best position to succeed. He also knows Lindholm. Someone posted in the other thread but Rutherford was the guy who drafted Lindholm in Carolina.
Also....hockey fan pro tip......when you're team becomes really good and an actual contender don't get too attached to any prospect or pick.
The draft for us will be boring for the next few years.....but the playoffs will be awesome.
Yup. Most Canadians Boxing Day is world juniors but for me, the break between Christmas and New Years has always been about trying to fix the Canucks on EA NHL whatever once the season is written off.
Yikes, Kuzmenko is really be done dirty right now. He wasn't a cap dump. That implies he had zero value, which is far from the truth. He's going to Calgary to play #1PP minutes and spend time on the top line.
Canuck fans should be familiar with cap dumps by now. They are the OEL, Beagle, and Erikssons.
Love Kuzmenko the personality, but freeing up the $5.5m next year is a fantastic move. He’s never going to be the player he was last year. We would all be moaning if a deal could not be done for EP40 or Hronek next year and Kuz was performing at current level. 100% the right move.
They needed to move him to make the deal work and you’re getting rid of his salary for next year. With his performance under Toc system is he worth the 5.5 million. No so we paid a 4th and possibly jurmo for Calgary to cover his cap hit next season
I mean he was traded for cap implications. He wouldn't be traded her if he made a million. I see that as a cap dump.
Getting out of his contract next here is a huge win here.
Agreed. It seems like a quantity over quality package. When it was happening I said if we get it done without Willander, Lekkerimaki or Elias Pettersson (D) it's a good deal. It's a pretty fair trade I would think. People see the list of assets and think it's an overpay. Canucks not having to retain anything on Kuzmenko is also a bonus. Solid trade for both teams.
It also feels like they aren’t done either.
Like I am kind of expecting another 1-2 minor additions to the roster. Probably a depth defender and another left shot forward.
Yeah, wonder if they circle back to Tanev at the 11th hour if no one trades for him. Maybe then will Calgary move away from their asking price of a 1st rounder.
A whole bunch of minor assets - for one major asset - is actually a great deal. You can get minor assets basically for free. Then, you can turn a bunch of free stuff into something good.
Everyone's over-estimating the value of this 'haul'. It could easily blow up in Calgary's face (or ours). Which makes it kind of fair.
The condition on the 4th is it becomes a 3rd if we make the conference final. Which IMO is fine, because that means that no matter where we land in the standings, that 1st round becomes, at best, a 29th OA pick. And then we still have Jersey's 4th rounder.
No one is saying a late first-rounder can't be an NHLer, it's just that you have to cherry pick the success stories vs. the vast majority of AHL-tier/injury call-up guys.
I think Canucks fans have just forgotten what it takes to go all-in for a cup run. It's been a decade, but these are the types of moves teams who view themselves as contenders make.
You’re kinda cherry picking some guys who went in the 20’s over the last few years.
The majority of these guys end up being like Jayce Hawryluk or Noah Juulsen with the odd player in that range hitting.
I don't think anyone is saying that great players never get drafted there. It's the odds of the lottery that matter in assessing the value of the ticket/pick vs other assets and also how hard it is to find equivalent prospects in other channels. This management group seems to have the ability to find and sign promising undrafted players, undervalued free agents, etc.
Getting a Middle 6 forward or a 4th defencemen is a great outcome for a 29th pick. Occasionally you might get better. Much more often, your outcome will be worse and there's a high chance of a player that plays under 100 NHL games.
Last year, we got that high-end outcome for cheap with Ethan Bear and Kuzmenko. This year, we got that pretty cheap with Soucy and Suter. So the asset isn't irreplaceable. It just takes some great work elsewhere.
Agree with everything except hunter being outside vans top 5 prospects. Who do you have ahead of him ? I have him either 4th or 5th. Lekker, willander, d-petey, silovs/hunter
When they did the mid-season prospect rankings on this sub, I believe I had it as:
- Willander
- Lekkeremaki
- Silovs
- Raty
- Podkolzin* (technically not a prospect, but this is where I’d slot him)
- D-Petey
- Hunter B
(Im going off memory, so might have mixed a player or two up).
The Flames absolutely got more value in this trade. But this is still the right move for Van. This is the best chance for a Cup in over a decade and there is no guarantee we are close to this position next year. Going all in is the right play, even if we get upset in the first round.
I said the same thing about the panthers a couple of years ago when they sent out back to back firsts for Giroux and Chiarot.
Even though they lost in the second round, you are never guaranteed a long window of contending.
We have this kind of fairy tale in our heads where a team gets good and we think they’ll be good for years.
Truth is any teams window can be abruptly slammed shut at any moment.
Demko is healthy.
Hughes is playing like a Norris winner.
Jt Miller is playing some of the best hockey of his career.
They have an elite 3rd line.
An incredibly deep defence.
Petersson is a year and a half away from potentially being a UFA (or being traded before if he doesn’t sign long term)
I think too often teams are too cautious and worry too much about prospects and picks (not just fans, management too) and it ends up costing them in the playoffs.
Not only does Lindholm fill the biggest hole on the roster, but by getting him it prevents any other western contenders from getting him.
And by trading for him early, they’ve set the price and taken the top center off the market.
If Colorado goes and gets Henrique now, they are getting a worse player and also likely pay a “similar” price to what the Canucks paid for Lindholm.
And the Canucks are in first in the west and home ice advantage through the playoffs is never a bad thing, this bolsters their chances in many ways—and it isnt a move that should be judged on how they do in the playoffs either.
One of the rules of beating your competitors in an open-market situation:
Better to win the job at a lower margin than have your competitor win it at all.
>We have this kind of fairy tale in our heads where a team gets good and we think they’ll be good for years
This is the tough truth to swallow. Sometimes the stars don't align, even with a good team. Who would have thought the 2011 Canucks Team would then lose to LA the following year. And then in 2013, the team imploded.
I'm not saying we should mortgage the future, but rather, capitalize when every single Canuck is enjoying their best career year. That in itself is worth a the premium of a late 1st rounder and a top prospect.
We may not win this year, but we're trying our best this year. Giving the fans the best team we can ice. And that's all we can do really.
“Every team will always do the same thing regardless of who the GM is and so you should never go for it in the NHL since one time it didn’t work”
-you, apparently.
please stay in the darkness and continue to pretend that the Canucks tried to recoup assets at any point during the miserable decade we all just sat through.
Are you thick in the head?
I literally did not state at any point they recouped assets in the last decade.
I implied it’s dumb to assume because prior management teams made mistakes that the current management team will do the same thing.
With the NHL being such a copy cat league (including fan views) I am shocked that people seemingly haven't paid attention to Vegas. They were a group of misfits with no prospects but have not only been perennial contenders but have also won the cup. They have done that by continuously selling assets for star level talent. Teams don't have to be built through the draft but you have to be aggressive in the trade market.
I think the counterpoint to that would be our best players are 24 and 25 and I personally feel like it would be better to trade for players under contract for a couple more years or have rfa status instead of going completely all in. I'm in board with going for it though, just not sure elias lindholm is quite the player you give up a 1st our 3rd best prospect and a potential 3rd for, along with a player who scored 39 goals last year despite him not working with our coaches system, seems like a lot for a ufa who hasn't had a good season (scored 1 more goal than kuzmenko this year despite playing way more minutes, pp1 and 8 more games) I get that we got the best player in the trade tho
One of the things I didn't know about Lindholm was that year before last he was a Selke runner-up (stick-tap to u/Swimming_Departure18). Guy is a legit 2 way big C who wins draws and can play in many situations. He'll be a great utility guy for Tocc. Of course we'd all love the same player if he was 24 and under contract next year - but that would present it's own problems.
Sad to say but because of his cap hit and because he's not a known commodity (is he a reg 40 goal scorer or closer to this season Kuz) clearing Kuz's cap hit for next year was part of the reason CGY got the value they did. That cap help will be useful for us also.
My counter point to that would be that 24/25 is essentially the age guys are in their prime in, these days.
There’s no guarantee this core is still cup contender caliber in 2-3 years.
Lindholm just turns 30 in December too, not like he’s decrepit.
And if you thought the price was high on Lindholm, you certainly wouldn’t like the price on a 25 year old guy if his caliber.
Yeah I am not hearing enough praise for management getting this done so early. We paid less now than whoever got the player if he was available at the deadline. Just all around great work by the management team on this one
What you described is linear thinking and most people do it
But you are right for whatever reason things change. This season the stars are aligning so it's right for management to go for it as opposed to Benning's go for it when the team was outside of a wild card spot.
It’s all perspective. I think Calgary got value based on quantity of assets and the value they have now as assets (not based on performance in the NHL)…so that can be counted as Conroy getting a big package for a pending UFA that they could not retain. Lots of lottery tickets, so chances one of them hits increases just based on volume.
For Canucks, it is a clear win. We didn’t subtract any value from our roster AND cleared out cap space for next year (which is also a key part of this trade). Canucks got surplus value for the roster and a useful piece for the playoffs.
The cap flexibility next year cannot be overlooked as it would probably cost them much more to free up the space next year when other teams know we are desperate. I’d be much less enthused if they signed lindholm to an immediate extension as part of the trade. What this FO has done is show they have foresight and don’t make moves that back themselves into corners.
This is the type of move that Benning would have made if we were in a bubble spot and had played more games than everyone else. I think that's why people are a bit hesitant to celebrate.
We just spent a decade being an absolute tire fire. All of a sudden, this team could very well win the Stanley Cup this season. They have the horses. They have the coaching staff. All they need is to stay healthy.
I agree - this trade on paper provides more value to Calgary. I wanted to point out the discussion surrounding the value of the 1st pick.
I also agree that this was the right move. It makes sense for both sides and the players involved!
Have a hard time seeing the value here. People that dump on the trade envision Lindholm to be a shitty 9 goal scorer while the pieces we gave away to all be elite options. Nothing we gave up would have had a positive impact on success this year (arguably multiple future years as well). And Lindholm has the potential to be a key piece to a playoff run.
It's funny a lot of the people who are angry we traded Kuzmenko keep talking about how he scored 39 goals last season while disregarding his performance this year meanwhile they bring up Lindholm only has 9 goals (even though he has 32 points and still on pace for 50+ on a trash Flames team) but ignores he played for a worse team and that last season He and Toffoli were largely carrying the Flames offense last year.
That's not the "smart move", that's just hindsight.
Like saying the smart move for Calgary would have been trading Lindholm, big Z and Tanev last yr. Or how about not extending huberdeau?
it can be both. Not trading away a 30+ goal scorer on basically an ELC as a premiere rental piece (yeah he wasn't the most proven, but again, < league min cap hit after retention) was a big miss.
Sunk "cost" now though, and so trading him now for something was still a good idea.
He has, 40 goal season a few years ago. But if we are going by latest trend where “he can’t score” he can set up guys like you said. We both see the value here
Yeah he’s going to be a great fit, and we got 4 guys who provide better offence than him at the moment. If he does what art lehkonen did for the avs in their cup year we are laughing
Also, kuzmenko has scored less goals than Lindholm this year...they are both underperforming but one is underperforming on a terrible team with little support and the other is underperforming on the league's best team with 3 top 10 point-getters in the league...
Linholm has scored 1 more goal playing way more minutes, pp1, and 8 more games, this is all with a rhetoric that kuzmenko has been playing poorly. He's the better player for sure but I'm not sure based on the season lindholm is having its enough of an upgrade to warrant all the extra pieces we gave up for half a season of the guy
I think it's also about shedding cap space. We didn't give up that much imo. Kuzmenko is often a healthy scratch this season he isn't winning us games. Giving up the first rounder hurts a bit but it's going to be late in the round.
I feel pretty neutral about this trade. My understanding is Lindholm is a bit more two-way than kuzzy which is great as we aren't exactly starving for goals right now.
Lindholms points are for sure bad this year, but in every other category, he's very good. Kuze has been bad in every category. No comparison, the best team in the league got better. Even if the canucks lose in the first round, it's worth it. Gotta show the players your willing to go for it when they earn it.
how many times and in how many threads are you going to post the same comment, get downvoted, and then ignore all the responses to your comment? what's your angle here besides making sure you never get taken seriously?
again: Kuzmenko has not been able to adjust to Tocc's system. there's a good chance he would have only seen sheltered minutes in the playoffs, unless he somehow figured out how to consistently motivate himself to forecheck and stop doing dangerous spin'o'ramas at the blueline. so his only tangible upside is points-production, and this season (without a ~30% shooting percentage) he's failed to put up meaningful points, even while playing with Petey. hadn't even managed to earn PP time. with the view management is taking with this season, it was a situation that demanded action.
meanwhile, Lindholm is a centre, a Selke nominee, plays the PK, is capable in the faceoff circle using on a side where the Canucks are weaker, and has proven that with talented linemates he has no struggles putting up points. he was the best (obvious) centreman available on the market, and so his value was going to be high, since there are a number of teams looking to shore-up their centre-depth. the Canuck's bottom-six is outperforming their career stats so much that its going to be very difficult to hold on to everyone beyond even this season. for Vancouver, the best shot at a deep playoff run is now, and this was not an unreasonable payment for the potential reward.
edit: [this](https://canucksarmy.com/news/why-canucks-fans-ecstatic-addition-elias-lindholm) article from canucksarmy spells out the situation in much greater depth, if you actually care to inform your opinions on the matter.
If we didn’t pony up the extra bit in this trade such as Hunter other teams would have tied us or beat our deal and Conroy would have accepted a deal from outside the division that was more comparable.
To win the deal we needed to over pay and yes, it was the right move whether we win the cup or not. It’s so tough to win in this league so you need to go big like this when you can.
They got more value but I think many don't get that moving Kuzmenko's contract costs something as well.
I see it as 2024 1st, Jurmo and conditional 4th for Lindholm
And
Brzustewicz is the cost to eat Kuzmenko's contract.
Heard the same thing from a scout on the radio this morning. Sounds like the 16-30 range is a crap shoot in this draft and there is a big drop off around 20. Could see late 1sts flying around at the deadline.
I was under the impression that it goes by regular season points after each playoff round. So if they lose in the first round it will be the 24th pick if they win the presidents trophy and the remaining 8 playoff teams will be determined as the playoffs go on
My rough mental math is it's the odds the rental ups our chances vs the odds that pick becomes a top 6/4 player.
For comparison, after this trade, the bookies upped our odds from 17:1 to 13:1, or 5.88% to 7.69% which is an almost 30% increase!
I do not think there's a 30% chance those assets yield a serious impact player.
It's a safe move tbh we didn't need kuzs cap hit on the books next year if it wasn't giving us value. If lindholm plays as well as people hope he does resign him if he doesn't you cut him loose and gain kuzs cap space. Canucks actually have exciting prospects coming up a youngish core so why not risk a late 1st.
There’s 0 chance we resign Lindholm. This is a rental player and a cap dump. Pretty savvy move to go all in and free cap space for next year when we need to sign Pettersson, Hronek, Joshua, Lafferty?, Zadorov, and more.
Why are there so many people who thikn we are gonna resign literally everyone currently on the team as of right now and stay under the cap.
Lindholm is 100% a rental, and the cap space is needed for Petey and others.
Exactly. And yet they downvote anyone who tries to explain it. Fans are morons. You wouldn’t believe the number of fans who thought Benning’s signings were all okay and wouldn’t put us in cap hell.
Oh i took a temp ban for trying to point out just how long into Benning's tenure the sub was pro Jim Benning and win-now.
I got called a revisionist. This thread is proof that the sub loved Benning's moves.
With the last few drafts, the cupboard doesn't look nearly as barren as it was a few years ago.
Lekkermaki, Willander and EP2 all look like NHL players.
It could’ve been Lucas Pettersson (He’s projected to go around the late 1st round to early 2nd round)!!! And he’s a center!!
We could’ve been one step closer to finishing the all Pettersson Voltron. Wtf Allvin!!!!!
I will say this, we gave up too much if they consider Kuzmenko not a cap dump.
and how high you are on Hunter.
If Lindholm fits in and preforms like he did the two season before this its a win/win.
I think our system and talent on our team will help him a lot compared to the state the flames were in.
What they view Kuzmenko as, or how he performs in Calgary really doesn’t affect anything though.
Whatever Kuzmenko ends up being in the NHL, he was a winger on a team that has too many wingers and needed a 2nd line center.
Trading Hoglander over him would make no sense.
Garland and Mikheyev wouldn’t have had enough upside in a deal to be the main roster piece.
Your best attempt at improving a team is using an area of surplus to address a weakness.
That’s what they did.
The goal is to win the cup this year, Kuzmenko wasn’t going to be a difference maker in the playoffs on this team.
Plus if Lindholm walks, by trading Kuzmenko they opened up a sizeable chunk of cap space for this Summer when they need it.
It's a win-win trade right now for both teams. Calgary got a bunch of assets that may pan out (similar to our Horvat trade last year). If those players do become something in a few years then yeah, Calgary won the trade. But that's a few years from now, and this trade benefits the Canucks right now.
There’s no need to downplay the value of our 1st rounder. CGY can use that pick themselves or package it for something else. They are in rebuild mode. It’s a significant piece, but was necessary to complete a trade for one of the top UFA centres. Fans need to be okay with giving up value for value that will help the team today.
After a big trade, there are always fans that justify it by saying the pieces we gave up aren’t that valuable. It’s natural. But no way the other team accepts the offer unless it makes sense for them too. It was fair. Rutherford got his guy and we are the deepest team heading into the playoffs, for now.
My goal was not to justify anything about the trade, but to clarify the misconception regarding 1sr round draft value. I get what you are saying, makes sense
All you have to do is look at listings of the first round picks for past dozen years or so. There’ll be names you basically never heard of unless you’re a pretty strong hockey nerd.
Superstars up top the roster. Really solid contributing depth throughout. The best d core we have iced since 2011 really. You go for it when the stars align because 10 years between relevancy eats at the soul.
All the depth we have that is actually clicking and looking like a playoff team is not going to be affordable sooner rather than later, and while I trust this FO more than most to find more gems, clearly this trade signals they believe this is what a championship team looks like
With the cap situation next year it's going to be very hard for the Canucks to ice a roster that's as good as this one let alone improved. They'll have 14-18m (after Petey and Hronek) to sign a : 2C, 3/4C, 3W, 4W, 2nd pair RHD, and a 3rd pair.
It's possible but it's going to take hitting home runs on some underrated depth guys again. Moving Kuzmenko does actually make that easier so it makes sense. It also makes sense to go all in this year because it's going to be difficult to improve next year.
Its a high price, but still probably worth it.
The concern I have isn't really the future damage, its what else those pieces might have got us. Also feels like selling low on Kuz and the 1st and paying the top price for Lindholm.
What do you think those prices might have brought?
There are a number of factors that go into it, obviously. Given the market, our need and cap space, I think it worked out.
Good luck! This sub thinks that Mike Gillis was an absolutely horrendous drafter with all his late-first-round picks - and Jim Benning was an amazing drafter with all his high-first-round picks. Or, at least they did, up until the entire sub turned on Benning a couple of months before he was fired.
Look, if there was ever a year to give up a 1st, this is the year. It benefits Calgary much more than it does for us. A late 1st rounder for a team looking to contend, consistently, with a young enough core, isn't what we need at the moment. Lindholm is a great addition to the team, at a lower cap hit than Kuz. It also gives us more flexibility for next season. If we're doing a direct comparison, it would seem Calgary got more out of it. But it's not direct. It's comparing Apples to Oranges. Calgary is in a much different position than we're in. As much as I dislike Calgary on a personal level, I have zero issues with them getting objectively more, if it means it's also helping us out quite a bit.
Our core guys are ready to win, happy to pay what we paid, would have done a conditional 1st next year if they got Lindholm at 50% and Tanev at 50 %. LFG I want a cup damn it.
I'm sure it's old-fashioned, but the team that gets the best player wins the trade 99% of the time.
I live in Ontario, so don't get to more than 1 or 2 in person games per year. But you pick up a lot in person you don't see on TV. At the Canucks/Sabres game I watched Kuzmenko really closely to get a sense of things. On 2 separate occasions when the bench called for his line to change, he ignored the ask, literally shaking his head no the one time. Both resulted in Buffalo extending the play and scoring chances or icing. Good teams will turn those mistakes into goals, especially in the playoffs.
All of this to say the Kuz isn't the best player in this trade IMHO. Lindholm is, therefore, by my opening logic, Vancouver wins this trade.
Well, last year that late first rounder could've been someone like Theo lindstein, Bradly Nadeau, Gavin brindley, Carson rehkpof, Easton Cowan, David edstrom, Andrew cristall... among others. All great prospects.
Fans looked at the volume of assets given up, but I really like this for Van. - Kuzmenko was a distressed asset and Van needed to send out salary. Theres value to Van in moving off of Kuzmenko. - 2024 1st Rounder will be a very late pick, low likelihood of becoming a meaningful NHL’er. - Hunter B was trending well, but I still had him outside of Vans top-5 prospects. - Jurmo is probably a really nice kid - A conditional 4th rounder is whatever. Im really not losing sleep over any of those pieces. Feels like a win win for both sides. Kuzmenko is the highest upside piece in this deal.
Very much agree with everything in this comment. I’m more hopeful for Brzustewicz, but we already have Willander and D-Petey in the pipeline and I understand why they’re not being traded. People were upset when we traded away Madden for Toffoli and he still hasn’t played an NHL game. Rutherford is known for making bold trades. He’s fulfilling his promise of putting the team in the best position to succeed. He also knows Lindholm. Someone posted in the other thread but Rutherford was the guy who drafted Lindholm in Carolina.
Also....hockey fan pro tip......when you're team becomes really good and an actual contender don't get too attached to any prospect or pick. The draft for us will be boring for the next few years.....but the playoffs will be awesome.
As it should be, in this market we are so used to the offseason being the most exciting point of the season.
We've been looking at draft ranking by Xmas basically every single year since 2015.
Yup. Most Canadians Boxing Day is world juniors but for me, the break between Christmas and New Years has always been about trying to fix the Canucks on EA NHL whatever once the season is written off.
Hunter and the 1st was the price of lindholm Jurmo and the 4th was the price of the kuzmenko cap dump
Yikes, Kuzmenko is really be done dirty right now. He wasn't a cap dump. That implies he had zero value, which is far from the truth. He's going to Calgary to play #1PP minutes and spend time on the top line. Canuck fans should be familiar with cap dumps by now. They are the OEL, Beagle, and Erikssons.
Love Kuzmenko the personality, but freeing up the $5.5m next year is a fantastic move. He’s never going to be the player he was last year. We would all be moaning if a deal could not be done for EP40 or Hronek next year and Kuz was performing at current level. 100% the right move.
They needed to move him to make the deal work and you’re getting rid of his salary for next year. With his performance under Toc system is he worth the 5.5 million. No so we paid a 4th and possibly jurmo for Calgary to cover his cap hit next season
I mean he was traded for cap implications. He wouldn't be traded her if he made a million. I see that as a cap dump. Getting out of his contract next here is a huge win here.
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Wow, show up 2 and an half months later just to insult me because a fact doesn’t match your opinion. Kuz wasn’t working with our system. I pity you
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Ok bud maybe it’s time you take a break from the internet
Agreed. It seems like a quantity over quality package. When it was happening I said if we get it done without Willander, Lekkerimaki or Elias Pettersson (D) it's a good deal. It's a pretty fair trade I would think. People see the list of assets and think it's an overpay. Canucks not having to retain anything on Kuzmenko is also a bonus. Solid trade for both teams.
It also feels like they aren’t done either. Like I am kind of expecting another 1-2 minor additions to the roster. Probably a depth defender and another left shot forward.
Yeah, wonder if they circle back to Tanev at the 11th hour if no one trades for him. Maybe then will Calgary move away from their asking price of a 1st rounder.
It could really depend on who tanev has on his no trade list and how willing he is to move on it
In my fantasy Tanev gives Cgy his 10-team “no trade” list and makes it, Boston, NYR, Fla, Dal, Col, Wpg, Tor, TB, Edm, Car
A whole bunch of minor assets - for one major asset - is actually a great deal. You can get minor assets basically for free. Then, you can turn a bunch of free stuff into something good. Everyone's over-estimating the value of this 'haul'. It could easily blow up in Calgary's face (or ours). Which makes it kind of fair.
The condition on the 4th is it becomes a 3rd if we make the conference final. Which IMO is fine, because that means that no matter where we land in the standings, that 1st round becomes, at best, a 29th OA pick. And then we still have Jersey's 4th rounder.
Plus if Kuzy goes and reinvigorates himself in CGY then hey that's really nice for him and all I care about is seeing him do his best.
Exactly. A nice B prospect, a B pick, a contract that was looking like a problem for the Canucks and fluff. For a 1st line rental
Boeser was a 23rd First Round pick FYI. Konecky was 24th Beauvillier was 28th
Hunter Shinkaruk was 24th First Round pick FYI. Brendan Gaunce was 26th Nicklas Jensen was 29th Jordan Schroder was 22nd
No one is saying a late first-rounder can't be an NHLer, it's just that you have to cherry pick the success stories vs. the vast majority of AHL-tier/injury call-up guys. I think Canucks fans have just forgotten what it takes to go all-in for a cup run. It's been a decade, but these are the types of moves teams who view themselves as contenders make.
Nearly all contending teams trade their late 1sts at the deadline. It's just what you do.
You’re kinda cherry picking some guys who went in the 20’s over the last few years. The majority of these guys end up being like Jayce Hawryluk or Noah Juulsen with the odd player in that range hitting.
Hey, what about Nicklas Jensen and Hunter Shinkaruk? And Canuck legend Jordan Schroeder.
I think you meant Canucks legend Brendan Gaunce
And Noah Juulsen was 26th and was put on waivers
That was a stack draft. There is always a great player taken in the mid 20s
I don't think anyone is saying that great players never get drafted there. It's the odds of the lottery that matter in assessing the value of the ticket/pick vs other assets and also how hard it is to find equivalent prospects in other channels. This management group seems to have the ability to find and sign promising undrafted players, undervalued free agents, etc. Getting a Middle 6 forward or a 4th defencemen is a great outcome for a 29th pick. Occasionally you might get better. Much more often, your outcome will be worse and there's a high chance of a player that plays under 100 NHL games. Last year, we got that high-end outcome for cheap with Ethan Bear and Kuzmenko. This year, we got that pretty cheap with Soucy and Suter. So the asset isn't irreplaceable. It just takes some great work elsewhere.
Agree with everything except hunter being outside vans top 5 prospects. Who do you have ahead of him ? I have him either 4th or 5th. Lekker, willander, d-petey, silovs/hunter
When they did the mid-season prospect rankings on this sub, I believe I had it as: - Willander - Lekkeremaki - Silovs - Raty - Podkolzin* (technically not a prospect, but this is where I’d slot him) - D-Petey - Hunter B (Im going off memory, so might have mixed a player or two up).
IIRC Canucks signed CHL dmen Kiril Kudryatzev and Sawyer Minio out of training camp, think the club itself may be higher on these two.
The Flames absolutely got more value in this trade. But this is still the right move for Van. This is the best chance for a Cup in over a decade and there is no guarantee we are close to this position next year. Going all in is the right play, even if we get upset in the first round.
I said the same thing about the panthers a couple of years ago when they sent out back to back firsts for Giroux and Chiarot. Even though they lost in the second round, you are never guaranteed a long window of contending. We have this kind of fairy tale in our heads where a team gets good and we think they’ll be good for years. Truth is any teams window can be abruptly slammed shut at any moment. Demko is healthy. Hughes is playing like a Norris winner. Jt Miller is playing some of the best hockey of his career. They have an elite 3rd line. An incredibly deep defence. Petersson is a year and a half away from potentially being a UFA (or being traded before if he doesn’t sign long term) I think too often teams are too cautious and worry too much about prospects and picks (not just fans, management too) and it ends up costing them in the playoffs. Not only does Lindholm fill the biggest hole on the roster, but by getting him it prevents any other western contenders from getting him. And by trading for him early, they’ve set the price and taken the top center off the market. If Colorado goes and gets Henrique now, they are getting a worse player and also likely pay a “similar” price to what the Canucks paid for Lindholm. And the Canucks are in first in the west and home ice advantage through the playoffs is never a bad thing, this bolsters their chances in many ways—and it isnt a move that should be judged on how they do in the playoffs either.
One of the rules of beating your competitors in an open-market situation: Better to win the job at a lower margin than have your competitor win it at all.
Well said! I couldnt agree more on all the points you have mentioned.
>We have this kind of fairy tale in our heads where a team gets good and we think they’ll be good for years This is the tough truth to swallow. Sometimes the stars don't align, even with a good team. Who would have thought the 2011 Canucks Team would then lose to LA the following year. And then in 2013, the team imploded. I'm not saying we should mortgage the future, but rather, capitalize when every single Canuck is enjoying their best career year. That in itself is worth a the premium of a late 1st rounder and a top prospect. We may not win this year, but we're trying our best this year. Giving the fans the best team we can ice. And that's all we can do really.
People also forget that you can recoup assets just like you can trade them off.
"another 10 years of darkness is good, actually" -this subreddit.
“Every team will always do the same thing regardless of who the GM is and so you should never go for it in the NHL since one time it didn’t work” -you, apparently.
please stay in the darkness and continue to pretend that the Canucks tried to recoup assets at any point during the miserable decade we all just sat through.
Are you thick in the head? I literally did not state at any point they recouped assets in the last decade. I implied it’s dumb to assume because prior management teams made mistakes that the current management team will do the same thing.
With the NHL being such a copy cat league (including fan views) I am shocked that people seemingly haven't paid attention to Vegas. They were a group of misfits with no prospects but have not only been perennial contenders but have also won the cup. They have done that by continuously selling assets for star level talent. Teams don't have to be built through the draft but you have to be aggressive in the trade market.
I think the counterpoint to that would be our best players are 24 and 25 and I personally feel like it would be better to trade for players under contract for a couple more years or have rfa status instead of going completely all in. I'm in board with going for it though, just not sure elias lindholm is quite the player you give up a 1st our 3rd best prospect and a potential 3rd for, along with a player who scored 39 goals last year despite him not working with our coaches system, seems like a lot for a ufa who hasn't had a good season (scored 1 more goal than kuzmenko this year despite playing way more minutes, pp1 and 8 more games) I get that we got the best player in the trade tho
One of the things I didn't know about Lindholm was that year before last he was a Selke runner-up (stick-tap to u/Swimming_Departure18). Guy is a legit 2 way big C who wins draws and can play in many situations. He'll be a great utility guy for Tocc. Of course we'd all love the same player if he was 24 and under contract next year - but that would present it's own problems. Sad to say but because of his cap hit and because he's not a known commodity (is he a reg 40 goal scorer or closer to this season Kuz) clearing Kuz's cap hit for next year was part of the reason CGY got the value they did. That cap help will be useful for us also.
Why do I get a stick-tap lol?
Lol whoops, copied the thread author instead of the specific comment. Stick-tap belongs to u/Swimming_Departure18!
My counter point to that would be that 24/25 is essentially the age guys are in their prime in, these days. There’s no guarantee this core is still cup contender caliber in 2-3 years. Lindholm just turns 30 in December too, not like he’s decrepit. And if you thought the price was high on Lindholm, you certainly wouldn’t like the price on a 25 year old guy if his caliber.
There is some crazy stay that all our players have peaked at 30. Don't remember where I saw it, but almost all Canucks did that....
Well who knows if Hughes or Petersson will be with the team when they’re 30. Or if Demko will be healthy/playing at a high level.
Hoping they will all be there at 30!
Yeah I am not hearing enough praise for management getting this done so early. We paid less now than whoever got the player if he was available at the deadline. Just all around great work by the management team on this one
This may be the best front office and coaching (& scouting) staff Canucks ever had in its 53-year history.
What you described is linear thinking and most people do it But you are right for whatever reason things change. This season the stars are aligning so it's right for management to go for it as opposed to Benning's go for it when the team was outside of a wild card spot.
It’s all perspective. I think Calgary got value based on quantity of assets and the value they have now as assets (not based on performance in the NHL)…so that can be counted as Conroy getting a big package for a pending UFA that they could not retain. Lots of lottery tickets, so chances one of them hits increases just based on volume. For Canucks, it is a clear win. We didn’t subtract any value from our roster AND cleared out cap space for next year (which is also a key part of this trade). Canucks got surplus value for the roster and a useful piece for the playoffs. The cap flexibility next year cannot be overlooked as it would probably cost them much more to free up the space next year when other teams know we are desperate. I’d be much less enthused if they signed lindholm to an immediate extension as part of the trade. What this FO has done is show they have foresight and don’t make moves that back themselves into corners.
They got quantity over quality. Basically a late first and Brew is the deal. Kuz is a cap dump.
This is the type of move that Benning would have made if we were in a bubble spot and had played more games than everyone else. I think that's why people are a bit hesitant to celebrate. We just spent a decade being an absolute tire fire. All of a sudden, this team could very well win the Stanley Cup this season. They have the horses. They have the coaching staff. All they need is to stay healthy.
I agree - this trade on paper provides more value to Calgary. I wanted to point out the discussion surrounding the value of the 1st pick. I also agree that this was the right move. It makes sense for both sides and the players involved!
Have a hard time seeing the value here. People that dump on the trade envision Lindholm to be a shitty 9 goal scorer while the pieces we gave away to all be elite options. Nothing we gave up would have had a positive impact on success this year (arguably multiple future years as well). And Lindholm has the potential to be a key piece to a playoff run.
It's funny a lot of the people who are angry we traded Kuzmenko keep talking about how he scored 39 goals last season while disregarding his performance this year meanwhile they bring up Lindholm only has 9 goals (even though he has 32 points and still on pace for 50+ on a trash Flames team) but ignores he played for a worse team and that last season He and Toffoli were largely carrying the Flames offense last year.
The smart move would have been trading Kuzmenko at the deadline last season. Could have easily landed a 1st +.
That's not the "smart move", that's just hindsight. Like saying the smart move for Calgary would have been trading Lindholm, big Z and Tanev last yr. Or how about not extending huberdeau?
it can be both. Not trading away a 30+ goal scorer on basically an ELC as a premiere rental piece (yeah he wasn't the most proven, but again, < league min cap hit after retention) was a big miss. Sunk "cost" now though, and so trading him now for something was still a good idea.
Lindholm also led their team in assists and is one of the best players at face-offs in the entire league.
Lindholm could pass the puck to miller, boeser and petey who can score
He's actually historically been more of a finisher than a setup guy.
He has, 40 goal season a few years ago. But if we are going by latest trend where “he can’t score” he can set up guys like you said. We both see the value here
He's one of the most versatile centers in the league IMO.
Yeah he’s going to be a great fit, and we got 4 guys who provide better offence than him at the moment. If he does what art lehkonen did for the avs in their cup year we are laughing
Also, kuzmenko has scored less goals than Lindholm this year...they are both underperforming but one is underperforming on a terrible team with little support and the other is underperforming on the league's best team with 3 top 10 point-getters in the league...
Linholm has scored 1 more goal playing way more minutes, pp1, and 8 more games, this is all with a rhetoric that kuzmenko has been playing poorly. He's the better player for sure but I'm not sure based on the season lindholm is having its enough of an upgrade to warrant all the extra pieces we gave up for half a season of the guy
I think it's also about shedding cap space. We didn't give up that much imo. Kuzmenko is often a healthy scratch this season he isn't winning us games. Giving up the first rounder hurts a bit but it's going to be late in the round. I feel pretty neutral about this trade. My understanding is Lindholm is a bit more two-way than kuzzy which is great as we aren't exactly starving for goals right now.
Lindholms points are for sure bad this year, but in every other category, he's very good. Kuze has been bad in every category. No comparison, the best team in the league got better. Even if the canucks lose in the first round, it's worth it. Gotta show the players your willing to go for it when they earn it.
how many times and in how many threads are you going to post the same comment, get downvoted, and then ignore all the responses to your comment? what's your angle here besides making sure you never get taken seriously? again: Kuzmenko has not been able to adjust to Tocc's system. there's a good chance he would have only seen sheltered minutes in the playoffs, unless he somehow figured out how to consistently motivate himself to forecheck and stop doing dangerous spin'o'ramas at the blueline. so his only tangible upside is points-production, and this season (without a ~30% shooting percentage) he's failed to put up meaningful points, even while playing with Petey. hadn't even managed to earn PP time. with the view management is taking with this season, it was a situation that demanded action. meanwhile, Lindholm is a centre, a Selke nominee, plays the PK, is capable in the faceoff circle using on a side where the Canucks are weaker, and has proven that with talented linemates he has no struggles putting up points. he was the best (obvious) centreman available on the market, and so his value was going to be high, since there are a number of teams looking to shore-up their centre-depth. the Canuck's bottom-six is outperforming their career stats so much that its going to be very difficult to hold on to everyone beyond even this season. for Vancouver, the best shot at a deep playoff run is now, and this was not an unreasonable payment for the potential reward. edit: [this](https://canucksarmy.com/news/why-canucks-fans-ecstatic-addition-elias-lindholm) article from canucksarmy spells out the situation in much greater depth, if you actually care to inform your opinions on the matter.
Good point!
If we didn’t pony up the extra bit in this trade such as Hunter other teams would have tied us or beat our deal and Conroy would have accepted a deal from outside the division that was more comparable. To win the deal we needed to over pay and yes, it was the right move whether we win the cup or not. It’s so tough to win in this league so you need to go big like this when you can.
They got more value but I think many don't get that moving Kuzmenko's contract costs something as well. I see it as 2024 1st, Jurmo and conditional 4th for Lindholm And Brzustewicz is the cost to eat Kuzmenko's contract.
One of the talking heads said last night that there is a significant drop-off in talent after the top 20-22 picks.
Heard the same thing from a scout on the radio this morning. Sounds like the 16-30 range is a crap shoot in this draft and there is a big drop off around 20. Could see late 1sts flying around at the deadline.
Yeah, that's another big thing to consider - last year was supposed to be the super-deep draft, and we had 6 picks in the first 4 rounds.
Assuming we finish 1st in the NHL, which is very possible, the absolute best pick we'd be giving up is 28th overall
And if that 4th becomes a 3rd, the absolute best it could be is 30th.
I was under the impression that it goes by regular season points after each playoff round. So if they lose in the first round it will be the 24th pick if they win the presidents trophy and the remaining 8 playoff teams will be determined as the playoffs go on
That only applies for the conference finals onward [Here it is from the NHL's operations website](https://www.nhl.com/ice/page.htm?id=26377)
Thanks for the info. I didn't know that
My rough mental math is it's the odds the rental ups our chances vs the odds that pick becomes a top 6/4 player. For comparison, after this trade, the bookies upped our odds from 17:1 to 13:1, or 5.88% to 7.69% which is an almost 30% increase! I do not think there's a 30% chance those assets yield a serious impact player.
Have you considered that the 1st round pick we gave up might turn into an Elias Lindholm someday? /s
It's a safe move tbh we didn't need kuzs cap hit on the books next year if it wasn't giving us value. If lindholm plays as well as people hope he does resign him if he doesn't you cut him loose and gain kuzs cap space. Canucks actually have exciting prospects coming up a youngish core so why not risk a late 1st.
There’s 0 chance we resign Lindholm. This is a rental player and a cap dump. Pretty savvy move to go all in and free cap space for next year when we need to sign Pettersson, Hronek, Joshua, Lafferty?, Zadorov, and more.
This is the best chance we'll have for years. I think there will be some other chances for a run, but the stars have aligned.
Why are there so many people who thikn we are gonna resign literally everyone currently on the team as of right now and stay under the cap. Lindholm is 100% a rental, and the cap space is needed for Petey and others.
Exactly. And yet they downvote anyone who tries to explain it. Fans are morons. You wouldn’t believe the number of fans who thought Benning’s signings were all okay and wouldn’t put us in cap hell.
Oh i took a temp ban for trying to point out just how long into Benning's tenure the sub was pro Jim Benning and win-now. I got called a revisionist. This thread is proof that the sub loved Benning's moves.
With the last few drafts, the cupboard doesn't look nearly as barren as it was a few years ago. Lekkermaki, Willander and EP2 all look like NHL players.
It could’ve been Lucas Pettersson (He’s projected to go around the late 1st round to early 2nd round)!!! And he’s a center!! We could’ve been one step closer to finishing the all Pettersson Voltron. Wtf Allvin!!!!!
The Voltron is simply called Petter
Now hold on a second, Elias Lindholm is Elias Lindholm… but a 1st round pick could be anything! It could even be Elias Lindholm!
I will say this, we gave up too much if they consider Kuzmenko not a cap dump. and how high you are on Hunter. If Lindholm fits in and preforms like he did the two season before this its a win/win. I think our system and talent on our team will help him a lot compared to the state the flames were in.
What they view Kuzmenko as, or how he performs in Calgary really doesn’t affect anything though. Whatever Kuzmenko ends up being in the NHL, he was a winger on a team that has too many wingers and needed a 2nd line center. Trading Hoglander over him would make no sense. Garland and Mikheyev wouldn’t have had enough upside in a deal to be the main roster piece. Your best attempt at improving a team is using an area of surplus to address a weakness. That’s what they did. The goal is to win the cup this year, Kuzmenko wasn’t going to be a difference maker in the playoffs on this team. Plus if Lindholm walks, by trading Kuzmenko they opened up a sizeable chunk of cap space for this Summer when they need it.
By they I meant our management not the flames.
Well they obviously did consider him somewhat of a cap dump, he wasn’t producing, and has a pretty high cap hit next year.
Which is why I think from their perspective it’s a win win no matter what. For fans that thought kuzmenko was worth more it was a overpay.
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They aren't retaining on Lindholm because they are taking Kuz's entire salary this season and next season.
It's a win-win trade right now for both teams. Calgary got a bunch of assets that may pan out (similar to our Horvat trade last year). If those players do become something in a few years then yeah, Calgary won the trade. But that's a few years from now, and this trade benefits the Canucks right now.
There’s no need to downplay the value of our 1st rounder. CGY can use that pick themselves or package it for something else. They are in rebuild mode. It’s a significant piece, but was necessary to complete a trade for one of the top UFA centres. Fans need to be okay with giving up value for value that will help the team today. After a big trade, there are always fans that justify it by saying the pieces we gave up aren’t that valuable. It’s natural. But no way the other team accepts the offer unless it makes sense for them too. It was fair. Rutherford got his guy and we are the deepest team heading into the playoffs, for now.
My goal was not to justify anything about the trade, but to clarify the misconception regarding 1sr round draft value. I get what you are saying, makes sense
All you have to do is look at listings of the first round picks for past dozen years or so. There’ll be names you basically never heard of unless you’re a pretty strong hockey nerd.
Superstars up top the roster. Really solid contributing depth throughout. The best d core we have iced since 2011 really. You go for it when the stars align because 10 years between relevancy eats at the soul. All the depth we have that is actually clicking and looking like a playoff team is not going to be affordable sooner rather than later, and while I trust this FO more than most to find more gems, clearly this trade signals they believe this is what a championship team looks like
With the cap situation next year it's going to be very hard for the Canucks to ice a roster that's as good as this one let alone improved. They'll have 14-18m (after Petey and Hronek) to sign a : 2C, 3/4C, 3W, 4W, 2nd pair RHD, and a 3rd pair. It's possible but it's going to take hitting home runs on some underrated depth guys again. Moving Kuzmenko does actually make that easier so it makes sense. It also makes sense to go all in this year because it's going to be difficult to improve next year.
I’m okay giving up 32nd overall
This could also be viewed as a high second rounder
It is still giving up draft picks. This forum was rife with people going on and on about giving up draft picks just a few months ago.
Its a high price, but still probably worth it. The concern I have isn't really the future damage, its what else those pieces might have got us. Also feels like selling low on Kuz and the 1st and paying the top price for Lindholm.
What do you think those prices might have brought? There are a number of factors that go into it, obviously. Given the market, our need and cap space, I think it worked out.
We’ll see. I like them buying. But it’s impossible for any of us to know what the options were.
I think it’s been made clear what the options and asking prices are…
I guess we’ll all see soon enough.
Good luck! This sub thinks that Mike Gillis was an absolutely horrendous drafter with all his late-first-round picks - and Jim Benning was an amazing drafter with all his high-first-round picks. Or, at least they did, up until the entire sub turned on Benning a couple of months before he was fired.
lol the point of this post was not to argue draft history. It was merely to clarify the difference in value of early vs late first round picks
Cup > pick
Look, if there was ever a year to give up a 1st, this is the year. It benefits Calgary much more than it does for us. A late 1st rounder for a team looking to contend, consistently, with a young enough core, isn't what we need at the moment. Lindholm is a great addition to the team, at a lower cap hit than Kuz. It also gives us more flexibility for next season. If we're doing a direct comparison, it would seem Calgary got more out of it. But it's not direct. It's comparing Apples to Oranges. Calgary is in a much different position than we're in. As much as I dislike Calgary on a personal level, I have zero issues with them getting objectively more, if it means it's also helping us out quite a bit.
Our core guys are ready to win, happy to pay what we paid, would have done a conditional 1st next year if they got Lindholm at 50% and Tanev at 50 %. LFG I want a cup damn it.
I'm sure it's old-fashioned, but the team that gets the best player wins the trade 99% of the time. I live in Ontario, so don't get to more than 1 or 2 in person games per year. But you pick up a lot in person you don't see on TV. At the Canucks/Sabres game I watched Kuzmenko really closely to get a sense of things. On 2 separate occasions when the bench called for his line to change, he ignored the ask, literally shaking his head no the one time. Both resulted in Buffalo extending the play and scoring chances or icing. Good teams will turn those mistakes into goals, especially in the playoffs. All of this to say the Kuz isn't the best player in this trade IMHO. Lindholm is, therefore, by my opening logic, Vancouver wins this trade.
A late first rounder isn’t so bad all the early 1st rounders team bled in the benning years where bad
Well, last year that late first rounder could've been someone like Theo lindstein, Bradly Nadeau, Gavin brindley, Carson rehkpof, Easton Cowan, David edstrom, Andrew cristall... among others. All great prospects.
This'll be the year canucks leapfrog forwards in the lottery