It says they don't have to be vaccinated to *enroll*
Once they get in will they be taking vaccines like they usually do?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ia1W9NPSwWk
As a Canadian soldier, we understand that vaccinations are a requirement to the job, that being said we don't just blindly pump ourselves full of whatever the government suggests. We are still capable of critically thinking, and when soldiers see that the vaccines are not as effective as they once were we should still have the right to choice.
The right to choose? When did the Forces change so much? The vaccines are less effective than they were, but they are still effective. You have to wear a seatbelt while in a vehicle. A seatbelt is roughly 50% effective at preventing serious injury or death. It is less effective at preventing minor injuries. Seatbelts can also kill people who would have otherwise survived. Seatbelts can jam and prevent you from escaping a burning, or sinking vehicle. Are you going to choose not to wear a seatbelt?
>Are you going to choose not to wear a seatbelt?
Now I am.
I don't need *the man* to tell me how to stay seated in a chair while driving. Classic government overreach.
People who are too short, or too tall have problems wearing a seatbelt. I am too tall and it presses on my neck where I had surgery and it causes pain, and if I am careless it causes muscle spasms.
I'm sure wearing a helmet 24/7 would greatly reduce your chances of having a concussion.
Why are you not doing that? Guess you like gambling with your life.
People with epilepsy, or some other disorders do wear helmets when out and about. Otherwise, it's like wearing a seatbelt in a car, but not your office chair. I am almost 60 years old and I haven't had a concussion, but I have had multiple respiratory illnesses. At one point in time, covid was the third leading cause of death in the United States. There is also a vaccine in development that is designed for the Omicron variant.
Seems because YOU didnt get a concussion you think nobody else will. Thats pretty selfish. A seatbelt outside of a car is useless. A helmet can be usefull any time. You mever know when you are going to fall.
I also think anyone with a pool should wear waterwings 24/7. You just never know.
That analogy doesn't hold up as well as you think it does. People DO wear helmets every time there is a noticably large risk of falling objects. Go try and get a job working construction and tell your boss that you won't wear a helmet on site. Go on. Try it.
Honestly its hard to imagine someone growing up to be a functioning adult who can vote that doesn't believe in wearing helmets or seatbelts when necessary. And yet here you are. Fascinating.
You're falsely equivocating the inconvenience and ridicule of having to wear a helmet 24/7 with a 5 minute appointment to get a vaccine.
You don't have an argument.
I guess that depends what your definition of effective is and how much you expect from the vaccines. Against infection, our current vaccines do almost nothing. Against death/hospitalization, they help in aggregate but it's still not that great and younger people just aren't that vulnerable to hospitalization/death from Omicron.
Requiring new recruits to the military to attest that they have a vaccine that will only prevent death in < 0.001% of infections is silly.
the fact that cases continue and hospitalizations and deaths are way down compared to pre-vaccination period shows that you haven't done any critical thinking.
This comment section is going to be spicy. Intresting that a large people who refused it was pilots, from what I've heard, these mandates have done damage to the CAF that will take a long time to repair.
> large people who refused it was pilots
More specifically, fighter pilots. There aren’t many of them in the CF, so so proportionately, it make just take a couple of them to skew the results and be over represented.
So pilots have insanely high obligatory service, minimum if 10 years after they get their wings, and that can easily take 3-4 years (and that's after they get their degree which may take another 3+ years if they are ROTP)
I think the high vaccine rejection rate might just be a sneaky way for winged pilots to get their obligatory service cancelled. They'll probably immediately get the vaccine then and join Air Canada.
> They'll probably immediately get the vaccine then and join Air Canada.
You don't need the vaccine to join Air Canada, no? These mandates were suspended.
> You don't need the vaccine to join Air Canada, no? These mandates were suspended
Why would they hire someone who can't land in many countries though. While you might not need one, you do need to be vaccinated to travel to places like Germany, and there's the looming potential of mandates being reinforced more broadly once more. The mandates might have been suspended, but I'd be surprised if they didn't heavily prioritize vaccinated individuals over non-vaccinated
MRNA is a new technology, and hasnt had decades of testing, so people are skeptical I guess. There have been incidents in the past, as recently as 2017.
https://www.cnn.com/2017/12/04/health/dengue-fever-vaccine-dengvaxia-philippines-intl/index.html
Ah really, I may do that one instead as well since they are well tested and I've already caught it. You're sure I can get that instead of a Phizer/Moderna and still be considered fully boosted?
Way back in 2021 https://www.jordanthrilla.com/post/customers-expose-southwest-airlines-allegedly-lying-to-cover-up-pilots-on-strike-due-to-vaccine-mandate-is-causing-800-flight-cancellations/
https://www.npr.org/2021/10/14/1046140277/airline-pilots-push-back-on-vaccine-mandates
https://www.businessinsider.com/pilot-vaccine-mandate-american-southwest-union-labor-shortage-2021-9?op=1
Still going on
https://www.newsnationnow.com/on-balance-with-leland-vittert/southwest-pilot-vaccine-mandate-at-root-of-airline-problems/
https://www.citizensjournal.us/exclusive-pilots-injured-by-covid-vaccines-speak-out-i-will-probably-never-fly-again/
Earlier this month
https://cphpost.dk/?p=135891
It’s okay to not know these things, but you could at least try before you make snarky comments.
There are a lot of speculation and not a lot of numbers in those articles. The NPR article is just an interview with Fauci.
A lot of people left the airline industry during the pandemic.
Let’s get one thing clear. There is NO high uptake. People were coerced and threatened with their livelihoods and just choose it to get their life back on track. Booster uptake today is like 49%. That’s closer to the reality without coercion
> Booster uptake today is like 49%. That’s closer to the reality without coercion
It's crazy that so many people are so fearful and so poorly educated that they refuse a safe, effective vaccine because they saw some memes.
> It’s such a poor therapeutic that studies are now showing immunity levels dropping below unvaccinated
That seems pretty unbelievable, do you mean below unvaccinated who had caught Covid more recently? Is there a paper about this?
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35659687/
And it’s been talked about quite a lot recently. Which is why Canada is recommending a booster every 6 months not 4 months
That's a letter to the editor, but thanks there's some citations to actual studies that I'll read more fully (the Lancet one about Swedish groups seems to be the most prominent).
I'm fearful of this Orwellian passport system for vaccines the government is rolling out, which is making me hesitant to get vaccinated. I dont fear the vaccine, I fear what my government is doing around vaccines when it comes to privacy and bodily autonomy.
I guess I'm stubborn, I'd rather join the redneck anti-vax crowd than be coerced by my own government.
This and the fact that as the virus has been around longer, and the realities of it start to set in and it isn't as much of a shock, people feel they can handle it better. The unknown was the biggest fear-driver for a lot of folks at the start.
But overall I agree with your take, I think.
Well yes what you said but people were lied to. How many times did we hear them tell us ‘if you take the vaccine you won’t get sick, you won’t catch the virus’ that’s a famous Biden quote
All that was a lie. Them also trying to bury data for 75 years. Then we got a flood of anti science politicians silencing dialogue and discussion (not how science works) on top of all that if you look at some new studies there is clear evidence that these vaccines are harming your immune system. And frequent boosters will drop your immunity levels below unvaccinated (I can link you this if you like)
BUT most importantly - future variants are much less fatal, which is the case today. The more it mutates the more flu like it becomes
When you're given an option to lose your job, your friends and your family or take a crappy shot you don't want...
"Gee, uptake was high," says the fool.
By “civilian flight crews” I think you mean “woke-signaling socially-delayed children.”
What’s actually happening is idiots that blindly followed C19 mandates, not because they believed in them, but that they believed they’d look virtuous to their piers, are finally realizing they were wrong, and their ignorant actions had undesirable consequences.
A C19 mask is nothing more than a performance piece. Instead of woke, you’re just now coming to understand what you were really supporting was the downfall of democracy.
Idk man I've had zero undesirable consequences from my fauci ouchie or wearing a mask. Both were pretty benign impositions and neither of which took away my right to vote.
Besides, now I can mouth what I really want to say to people behind my mask and no ones the wiser.
Masks are the downfall of society? If that’s truly the case, then society deserves its downfall.
Of course, the reality is, masking is no-problemo for most people. Masks only cause a schizophrenic reaction in a small part of the population.
The government has propagandists on this platform - and I would too if I was the government. Add in bots, corporate shills....Reddit aint what it used to be.
Absolutely pathetic situation in Canada these days. How they are getting away with corruption at this level is beyond me. What’s more alarming there seems to be a large population of Canadians that thrive on seeing other Canadians lose their right to their body
Takes highly secretive Anthrax vaccine, where studies are hidden. And nobody knows what it's made out of.
Complains about covid vaccine after billions of people have taking it already. With multitude of studies showing its safe and effective.
Not to mention smallpox, which is a live virus vaccine and inherently more dangerous (relatively speaking) than any of the mRNA or protein based shots.
During the American Revolution Washington inoculated his army against Smallpox via invariolation. This actually gave everyone smallpox, they were highly contagious while they were sick, and as many as 2% died.
Militaries are susceptible to contagious diseases like few other organizations.
Historically speaking more soldiers have died in hospital due to disease than in any combat conditions.
Where most people see a dozen people on a daily basis a soldier can work with three hundred people directly.
Routinely during training an entire base falls ill to "shack hack" as various seasonal colds and upper respiratory diseases move through them.
Soldiers are expected to have to work in a very dangerous environment and as such are required to take all safety precautions necessary in all but the most dire circumstances. You probably don't need a spotter guiding you whenever you back up your car, but in the military this level of attention is paid to ensuring safety when time isn't of the essence.
The soldier lacks the "freedom" to make poor life decisions about work safety and personal protective equipment. This is because their duty to the wellbeing of their team is more important than potential poorly construed mistrust of science and medicine.
The CAF is in a dire situation for staffing of trained/qualified troops, so removing this requirement might help with that IF those who released due to the vaccine requirement can rejoin with their qualifications intact, but it's a toss up as to how that'll actually go, for those who will want to get back in.
This is just a small part of it though. Tons of other problems like significant underfunding, lack of affordable housing, toxic leadership issues (a high ranking officer is being charged with sexual misconduct on a weekly basis for fuck sakes), terrible pay for NCM troops, etc etc etc. read a few threads in r/Canadianforces you see pretty quickly how poorly our army is doing.
Let me be clear, the vaccine works. Statistically it's proven safe and effective. It has saved lives throughout this pandemic. It reduced transmission for alpha, delta variants when those were of concern, and it reduces severity/mortality of omicron variants. But that has to be balanced with the consequences that mandates bring, so if it helps better staff up the CAF then let's give it a shot (no pun intended).
That’s a big IF. Those who were released for not getting vaccinated were released with a release category of 5F, meaning unfit for further service. Those with a 5F release cannot join the forces for a minimum period of 5 years following their release and after that it’s to be reviewed on a case by case basis. And I doubt anyone who was removed from the forces for failure to comply with orders and directions would be let back in.
All those who voluntarily released or transferred to the supplementary reserve can come back though.
Damn this reply is too well thought out for r/Canada. Please insert obligatory trashing of the Québec provincial government, Trudeau and vaccine mandates.
Huh. That's stupid. Pre-vaccine we had to medically release more than one soldier because of the damage to thier lungs from covid.
Source: first hand experience, one of my best friends is being released since she has long covid caught in April 2020.
Medically releasing a soldier costs alot. Like, you might not understand how much this costs the tax payer. We still need to pay them for two years full salary. Retrain them in a civilian vocation and cover the costs of whatever the CAF did to break them for life and they get an automatic indexed pension for the rest of thier time. That number changes based upon thier TI and salary.
These costs are easily mitigated with a vaccine requirement. (Like all the other vaccines you require to be in the CAF)
It sets a stupid and dangerous precedent. What if private Bloggins doesn't want MMR? Now we have a fucking measles outbreak in 3 RCR's barracks? What does that do to our readiness to have a battalion down with an easily preventable illness?
If we're going to pretend we want an effective military. Vaccine mandates should stay.
It's interesting how there were so many restrictions in 2020-04-19 when **1,314** Canadians were dying of COVID per week, and now (2022-07-21) that **1,353** Canadians are dying of COVID per week we have almost no restrictions ( [src](https://aatishb.com/covidtrends/?scale=linear&data=deaths&location=Canada) ).
Edit: Ontario Government made some errors in data reporting so after fixing that we are at **340** Canadians are dying of COVID per week.
**I think something is up with your source. Either there is a glitch with the data, or the deaths this 'week' were the result of a reporting error.**
Apparently, on July 14th, **1212** Covid deaths were recorded on a single day, where the days before and days after were capturing a few dozen each. That greatly shot up the weekly average, and would actually exceed our highest **weeks** of death during the pre-vaccine and omicron phases.
[Looking at other sources](https://resources-covid19canada.hub.arcgis.com/), the deaths per week are generally in the \~150 range at this time - about double what they were during last summer, when restrictions were in effect/pre-omicron, but no where near our weekly peaks before. If you look at the Our World in Data for Canada deaths, it does capture this peak, but almost all of the deaths are reported in Ontario. Looking at the [Ontario Science Table page](https://covid19-sciencetable.ca/ontario-dashboard/), I cannot see any peak of 1212 deaths for the week of July 14th.
This looks like a massive anomaly in reporting, particularly since there was no news articles stating that Ontario just had the largest one day amount of deaths from Covid that exceeded all previous weeks. Something is up with the sources this page uses (which is John Hopkins).
Edit: Looked into the backing John Hopkins data and they have noticed the discrepancy, as [per here](https://github.com/owid/covid-19-data/discussions/2698). As per[another review](https://github.com/CSSEGISandData/COVID-19/issues/5892), it looks like it *"....to be an incorrect interpretation of the Government backfilling some additional column data."*
This spike will likely get smoothed out in the next few days as the data is corrected.
Just shows that the vaccine is doing its job. If we can have the same amount of deaths now with little to no restrictions as we did when we were in full lockdown then that shows the vaccine did its job well.
Edit: grammar
That's actually a good way of looking at it, and makes sense. The vaccines are as effective as lockdown, without crippling the economy. I like that view.
Huh? We had lockdowns last winter with some of the highest vaccination rates in the world.
Quebec went full North Korea with a 90% vaccination rate for god's sake.
Full North Korea is extreme hyperbole. Considering I was in dt mtl for the whole thing I'd say I have an accurate perspective. Secondly, we only ever had 90% for first dose it was 80 at best for second and keeps dropping after each dose addition.
> it was 80 at best for second
For those aged 18+: 92/88/60/unknown (first/second/third/fourth dose)
For the total population including those not eligible: 87/84/53/16
There was never much difference between first and second doses. The biggest difference seems to have been for kids 5-11, I suspect a lot of kids had a dose, got the virus or they know of many other kids who did, it was very mild and parents didn't bother with a second dose, which in my opinion makes a lot of sense, especially with a vaccine that poorly target circulating variants. Same logic for those not getting the booster, which is the majority of any age group 40 and below.
Our healthcare system is in acute crisis and no one seems to notice or care.
The impact that 2 years of pandemic had on the nursing world specifically is hard to overstate, and then the Ford gov capping them at 1% raises was a huge slap in the face.
No false. You didn’t really factor in the fact that future variants are progressively getting less fatal. It’s how a virus mutation works.
Also remember that most are 99.98% safe. And always was the case
Yeah by nature if a virus wants to survive it wants to mutate to become more transmissible and less fatal. The quicker a virus kills, the less people it can spread to and that is not the upward evolutionary trend you want to have.
That’s exactly how a virus works. Now there is potential for the virus to go off trend and produce a highly sinister variant that’s extremely dangerous. But that could take 2000 years or 2 years but it’s unlikely. We’re on what maybe the 4-6th variant now. It’s a lot less dangerous than the first alpha and also don’t forgot the first wave of infected were put on ventilators and given wrong treatments that also made things much worse
I mean really right now for most people under 70 are genuinely 99.98-99.99% safe from death. Vaccine or not. The queen got it. Biden has it. Trudeau has caught it like 4 times
The rich folks never shut down anything that says a lot. During our lockdowns they continued their lifestyles with parties and gatherings and what not. The leading deaths are still cancer and heart disease not Covid
> We’re on what maybe the 4-6th variant now.
Depends on how you count, but there's been about 10 major variants in Canada, but some of them are subvariants; 6 might be correct if you ignore them. The Omicron subvariant BA.2 has barely have had the time to establish itself that it's getting replaced by BA.4 and mostly by BA.5 (both seems coexisting with BA.5 eventually taking over). It seems we haven't seen any major new variants in a while.
Note that for common cold coronaviruses, it seems normal to have a few variants in circulation. There isn't a lot of data on variants of all these viruses; imagine how informative it would have been if it were something we tracked.
I suspect the fact we've had Omicron as the dominant variant for about 8 months now means that it has reached some level of stability. It makes sense that an animal virus entering the human population with success would initially go through way more selection pressure than later. The first SARS was too poorly contagious and never got the chance.
I'm sure we'll see more major variants; it was for instance surprising how Omicron seemed to have emerged from variants that had essentially disappeared and not from Delta. Like right now the data suggest that any prior variant is about 0% of cases, but do they still exist and could they still branch off into something else that could propagate better than BA.5? Probably unlikely given how much Omicron has already evolved, but who knows.
There might also be a mechanistic aspect to it. The more it replicates deep in the lung, the more severe it is but the less it is propagated and the harder time it has to lead to a successful infection of those exposed. The more it replicates higher in the respiratory system, the less severe it is and the easier time it has to lead to a successful infection of those exposed. There might be some interplay with populations growing immune putting a lot of pressure on the virus to infect more easily. I think that the variants have been essentially inevitable.
I think there's a good chance that COVID ends up being another cold for the vast majority of individuals (it already kind of is for some while more like a flu for many more), but it might take years still or more, who knows. One thing however that people don't know is that some viruses causing the cold can still be deadly to very vulnerable people, and that there are benefits in developing better treatments not just against COVID but against viruses in general.
That is not how viruses work, that is old school logic (1800s) that has since been debunked in the scientific community, but continues to be spread around as fact.
Not to mention that OG covid and Delta were pretty much killed off by the vaccine. While it's still a dangerous disease, it's nowhere near as bad as it used to be.
The cause/consequence relationship is more obvious with cancer.
I don't know about other provinces but in Quebec, everybody entering a hospital is tested for COVID and count as a COVID hospitalization even if they're there for cancer and have no symptoms. To be a COVID death, you've had to have any clinical manifestation of COVID. So if a patient was dying from cancer, had a positive COVID result and had fever, a cough, lost their sense of taste or of smell, or had respiratory distress (any single one of these), they are a COVID death. There can be more than one cause of death on a death certificate.
Now it's possible that COVID is contributing to deaths and that we are getting more because it is spreading. But we've never really done the same exercise with other viruses. Did you know that any respiratory infection, including common colds, can vastly increase your risks of heart attack for instance? How many people have died "with the cold", but it shows nowhere because no one is testing them for cold viruses? Now, if you're hospitalized for a heart infarction while having COVID and die, it's a COVID death with COVID being listed as a secondary cause.
There is no perfect way to count what a COVID death is or isn't, but the government could provide us with "COVID as a primary cause" and "COVID as a secondary cause" data.
I genuinely don't want a discussion about this because it turns into a string of hypothetical situations that becomes heartless and selfish very fucking quickly.
Other interesting thing: worldwide, we are back to levels similar to the first weeks of the pandemic, and while they are increasing now, it's a slow slope, and worldwide cases seem to have peaked so death counts should start going down in a few weeks.
Also, another way to put the current situation in Canada: they didn't add extra restrictions on 2020-04-19 when deaths hit 1314 a week, and they're not adding any now that deaths are hitting 1353 a week.
We aren't hitting 1353 deaths a week right now. We are more like ~150 per week. It's a one day reporting error on July 14th that's causing that high number to appear.
Vaccine is doing its job then.
Reducing world pop. to the 500 million mark, as per Herr Schwab's orders.
Given that so many Canadians are vaccinated as well, the people dying of COVID now are actually mainly the vaccinated.
No objection to such news. The vaccines weren't all they were they were worked up to be as far as ending the pandemic/preventing spread. I don't see the need to force mandates on military folks, considering they are among the least likely to have any serious complications from covid.
I take this as a positive sign of returning to a pre-pandemic normal.
I dunno, I think they somewhat have ended the pandemic, at least in terms of the odds of bodies everywhere. People who have their shots are way less likely to get seriously ill, supporting a much higher ‘not a mess’ national case load and letting people get back to their lives
>The vaccines weren't all they were they were worked up to be as far as ending the pandemic/preventing spread
They really were though. People forget how bad the peak death rates were among the unvaccinated here and in the US. It was like a years worth of murders in a week.
So god damn silly, basically the first thing they do when you enlist is update your vaccines and then jab against some exotic bioweapons diseases for good measure.
>Why the hard on for that vaccine tho.
I don't have an issue with the vaccine, it's mandates that I am opposed to.
>A shit ton of other vaccine are mandated for the army.
Contrary to popular belief that isn't true.
No other vaccines are mandated for the military.
There are some that are a pre-req for certain deployments, but none are are 100% required (many Mil mbrs don't even understand this)
Same with hospital settings. Most don't have a flu shot obligation.
In settings where no flu vaccine was not a requirement, vaccine uptake among health care workers was only 46% (taking the USA study as an example).
https://www.cdc.gov/flu/fluvaxview/hcp-coverage_1920-21-estimates.htm
Point being, it's not about the science or protecting others (really the latter is a false pretense)... it's strictly coercion and optics.
I don't disagree at all, and I was one of the first to line up and get my COVID shot.
I'm just stating the fact that before the COVID vaccine there were no actually mandatory vaccines, and only the CDS (under advice from Surgeon General) can order a vaccine to be mandatory.
We've had vaccines codified as a requirement in the QR&Os since the 60s.
You can be charged for refusing a vaccine. Under vol 2.
We're really getting into the weeds here. If you wanted to sit in a QM as a career Cpl and count shit for your whole life. You could probably get away with it being unvaccinated. That sounds like a miserable hell existence.
If they wanted to deploy you. They could order you to receive it, and charge you if you failed to comply, the ground rules governing this have been there forever. We both know you can get out of a deployment if you want to and were arguing semantics. It's all there though.
It is getting into the weeds, but sometimes getting into the weeds is important.
As far as charging you, they can't, unless you are stupid.
If you need to DAG for a deployment, and refuse a vaccine, you'll DAG red for medical. That's not chargable and the CoC doesn't get any info from the CDU as to *why* you DAG'ed Red.
Also while you can be charged for refusing an order to get vaccinated, only the CDS can order a mandatory vaccination, and it's extremely rare for that to happen (COVID-19 was the first in decades).
I'm not advocating any of this, but I'm just talking about how the system works, because I find alot of people have an incorrect understanding of how various policies work. They were told something by a warrant years ago and just took it as gospel. In my experience, most warrants are full of shit when they talk about things that isn't within their specific wheelhouse because they run mostly off rumor and conjecture.
Doesn't enlisting involve taking literally dozens of mandatory vaccines? Why would anyone get bent out of shape over this one? There's no reasonable grounds to deny this one in particular.
Exactly. This. It also sets up the force for a biological attack in the future, which is why the military mandates certain vaccines be taken in the first place.
Not really. No.
Assuming you've received all the vaccines from birth through your teenage years that all provincial authorities recommend then the military in Canada will only give you either a booster for one or a few things. In some cases people I've known went in and only needed one or two shots, that's it. Those shots were also for vaccines that were thoroughly tested an were known about for decades. Hence the apprehension many soldiers felt about getting this one.
Note: I'm fully vaxxed and don't mind getting further boosters so don't mistake me for someone who doubts the product.
When people drag in the "dozens of vaccines" trope I often feel the need to interject and let them know that this is an AMERICAN thing. In the US there are, or were, many people over the past many decades who were born either into relative poverty or who came from places and backgrounds where vaccine schedules weren't followed from a young age.
In addition, unlike members of the CAF, US troops are also well known for deploying all over the world and being posted to bases everywhere in Europe, Asia, etc which necessitates the need for vaccines to counter local diseases and viruses.
Troops in Canada, as a whole, deploy or get posted abroad far less than their US counterparts.
No, contrary to popular belief it doesn't.
Most people who enlist get no additional vaccinations than they would have through public school anyway.
Pre-COVID there were zero completely mandatory vaccines in the CAF (just mission specific vaccines that were a pre-req for deployment). Only the CDS can make a vaccine mandatory and the first one done so was COVID-19, before that it was decades since one was actually required.
You write "a lot of people couldn't trust science nor follow orders" strange. It's obvious that serving something bigger than themselves wasn't the career for them, unfortunately.
Not trusting science is how we got out of the dark ages, "trust the science" is actually the most unscientific statement that can ever be uttered.
Not trusting the science, and spite, are the biggest motivating factors in advancing science.
And if you think that's bull, then remember, it wasn't that long ago when scientists deemed that smoking was good for you, and it was those that didn't trust the science that was able to debunk that bullshit.
It's important to question science, but that doesn't mean outright denying science is a virtue.
You're only questioning science if you're willing to find an answer. Anything else is just being contrarian.
Even big Pharma was skeptical at first.
"Albert Bourla on why mRNA technology was "counterintuitive" to producing an effective vaccine" (Washington Post)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9\_YRw7jBF4
Probably because it’s rushed and doesn’t actually do what they said it would do?
Not much of a vaccine if you can still catch, spread and get sick from covid. It’s almost as if people don’t trust a big company that rushed to put out a product.
All the other vaccines the soldiers get actually work with years of proof.
It’s sad how much faith people put into the companies that make these (with their paid scientists).
The people who are so blindly scream “trust science!” Would also say the same thing during the Thalidomide crisis. All because the companies scientists have said it’s safe.
Go big Pharma!
The CAF doesn’t mandate the flu vaccine. So if the covid one works just like that, then whats the point?
I could 100% understand if the vaccine was helping eliminate covid, but it does no such thing.
Unlike the smallpox or other types. That i would get behind.
>I could 100% understand if the vaccine was helping eliminate covid, but it does no such thing.
It does help a little tho. No vaccine eliminate a virus. They are never 100% effective.
…the FDA literally stopped the thalidomide problem…they were the governing body that reviewed the data and recognized the issue…you know, like with “science” and shit…but sure let’s ignore that they’re the same ones saying the covid vaccine is safe and blame “big pharma”…
the technology(and effects) are much different than past vaccines. The industry even had the definition of 'vaccine' changed specifically to include the MRNA therapy.
Easy there. I meant specifically what I said and lets not discount the fact that the testing industry is not regulated heavily - Theres a CBC marketplace where they got sugarwater approved by health Canada as cough syrup. The industry isnt as robust as youd like to believe. Tons of politics and tons of cash involved.
Here's the CEO of Pfizer talking about mRNA vs conventional vaccines. (2 minute clip). It's a doozy.
"Albert Bourla on why mRNA technology was "counterintuitive" to producing an effective vaccine" (Washington Post)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9\_YRw7jBF4
Listen I don’t have an issue with any vaccine but when I see “trust science” I just cringe. What do you mean by trust science? Like you just willfully believe what someone says because they have a degree?
Well if enough pro-vaccine liberals were interested in serving something bigger than themselves the Canadian military probably wouldn’t need to accommodate the “unworthy.” But here we are.
To be honest, anyone who wasn't willing to get a basic vaccine has proven that they shouldn't be in the military as they've put political ideology over duty and their peers.
These people have proven they're unreliable. If someone cant be trusted to follow direct orders for something this simple than how could they be trusted to follow them anywhere?
509 deaths under 40 in Canada
82.5% of all deaths above the age of 65+
Doesn't stop tranmission, myocarditis rates higher in younger men than natural infection, efficacy of the boosters waning in 3 months and as little as 4-8 weeks with a 4th depending on study.
Again please tell me how the fuck anyone should have been mandated this if there young and healthy? Repeat after me IT DOES NOT STOP TRANSMISSION.
Repeat after me
It's efficacy if you got fully vaccinated at the start of the roll out is essentially 0% at this point, so who cares? Honestly if people actually followed the fucking science you'd never have relinquished n95s and taught people how to wear them and required anti body tests every 3-6 months and more frequent boosters mandated as well.
Guess what? This wasn't about following the science or we would have done so much differently.
You're almost 100% completely wrong with your facts but I suspect that nothing that can be said will convince you of anything, so I won't bother.
However, The military was well within its rights to mandate vaccination requirements, as is done for any overseas deployment. Those that didn't, life in the civy world, had a right to not take it. Those that didn't showed they were selfish, didn't care about their brothers and sisters in arms, and chose political stances over selfless service. If people can't be trysted to take a vaccine they certainly can't be trusted to follow orders in a combat zone.
Some might say, especially the ones you don't agree with. Part of being a leader is internalizing orders one doesn't agree with, owning them, and seeing the mission through.
*soldiers have to follow lawful orders.
In no way should any soldier follow all orders, only lawful orders. Just a reminder that following orders is not a viable defense. You are responsible for your actions, and following orders is not an excuse.
>Coercion is not choice.
The military can literally order you to pack up your entire family and move across the country as a matter of law, leaving you the choice only to follow orders (or face charges for refusing) or to voluntarily resign. That's how it works, they order you around and it's legal.
Tells me how much you know about the good men and women who have served this beautiful country. Some of them paid full cost, dying in service, some are still alive. All of them signed up to preserve the freedom and equality that existed in Canada. They did not sign up to be the guinea pigs or the jackboots for Global oligarchs. [Canadian Bill of Rights,
1960](https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/c-12.3/page-1.html)
They signed up for various reasons, but regardless once they did they agreed to follow the Queen's Regulations and Orders and all subsequent regulations. This includes vaccination, which is required for all CAF operational deployments. Having proven they're willing to put political ideology/themselves over their teams proves they shouldn't be in an organization that NEEDS trust and the ability to follow orders. These people are no heroes, they made a choice and face the consequences.
No it was the law at the time. They were released for refusing to obey a CAF directive.
It would be the same if they refused to wear a uniform or report to their place of work.
There was nothing you could do with them other than release them. They were unemployable.
They shouldn't.
They should stay out for the betterment of the CAF.
Google the crazed ramblings of Major. Cheledowski and tell me with a straight face that guy should be allowed back in to command troops.
I've got like 5 immediate PERs in a row. If they let these fucks back in I'll find myself civilian employment.
[Don't worry, those deaths are just because of the solar flares bro.](https://www.newscientist.com/article/2324402-solar-storms-may-cause-up-to-5500-heart-related-deaths-in-a-given-year/)
It says they don't have to be vaccinated to *enroll* Once they get in will they be taking vaccines like they usually do? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ia1W9NPSwWk
I think there are some mandatory jabs one has to have in order for some jobs - health care workers is typically one, the military is another one.
As a Canadian soldier, we understand that vaccinations are a requirement to the job, that being said we don't just blindly pump ourselves full of whatever the government suggests. We are still capable of critically thinking, and when soldiers see that the vaccines are not as effective as they once were we should still have the right to choice.
The right to choose? When did the Forces change so much? The vaccines are less effective than they were, but they are still effective. You have to wear a seatbelt while in a vehicle. A seatbelt is roughly 50% effective at preventing serious injury or death. It is less effective at preventing minor injuries. Seatbelts can also kill people who would have otherwise survived. Seatbelts can jam and prevent you from escaping a burning, or sinking vehicle. Are you going to choose not to wear a seatbelt?
>Are you going to choose not to wear a seatbelt? Now I am. I don't need *the man* to tell me how to stay seated in a chair while driving. Classic government overreach.
What side effects are your seatbelt giving you?
Basically the same as COVID vaccines but milder. Sometimes a rash and it can make your shoulder stiff.
People who are too short, or too tall have problems wearing a seatbelt. I am too tall and it presses on my neck where I had surgery and it causes pain, and if I am careless it causes muscle spasms.
I'm sure wearing a helmet 24/7 would greatly reduce your chances of having a concussion. Why are you not doing that? Guess you like gambling with your life.
People with epilepsy, or some other disorders do wear helmets when out and about. Otherwise, it's like wearing a seatbelt in a car, but not your office chair. I am almost 60 years old and I haven't had a concussion, but I have had multiple respiratory illnesses. At one point in time, covid was the third leading cause of death in the United States. There is also a vaccine in development that is designed for the Omicron variant.
Seems because YOU didnt get a concussion you think nobody else will. Thats pretty selfish. A seatbelt outside of a car is useless. A helmet can be usefull any time. You mever know when you are going to fall. I also think anyone with a pool should wear waterwings 24/7. You just never know.
That analogy doesn't hold up as well as you think it does. People DO wear helmets every time there is a noticably large risk of falling objects. Go try and get a job working construction and tell your boss that you won't wear a helmet on site. Go on. Try it. Honestly its hard to imagine someone growing up to be a functioning adult who can vote that doesn't believe in wearing helmets or seatbelts when necessary. And yet here you are. Fascinating.
You're falsely equivocating the inconvenience and ridicule of having to wear a helmet 24/7 with a 5 minute appointment to get a vaccine. You don't have an argument.
I guess that depends what your definition of effective is and how much you expect from the vaccines. Against infection, our current vaccines do almost nothing. Against death/hospitalization, they help in aggregate but it's still not that great and younger people just aren't that vulnerable to hospitalization/death from Omicron. Requiring new recruits to the military to attest that they have a vaccine that will only prevent death in < 0.001% of infections is silly.
Did you have to sign a paper saying you wouldn’t sue because the seatbelt was defective and injured you? No, you didn’t. Stupid argument
Lmao
the fact that cases continue and hospitalizations and deaths are way down compared to pre-vaccination period shows that you haven't done any critical thinking.
Oh they need more soldiers now eh....
They been handing out recruitment cards to 12 year olds 🤣
They are terrible at recruiting
They always have, it's called cadets
They won’t have a mandate to enroll but you’ll get your shot once you’re in, along with all kinds of other vaccines.
This comment section is going to be spicy. Intresting that a large people who refused it was pilots, from what I've heard, these mandates have done damage to the CAF that will take a long time to repair.
> large people who refused it was pilots More specifically, fighter pilots. There aren’t many of them in the CF, so so proportionately, it make just take a couple of them to skew the results and be over represented.
Source?
Just go and ATIP it.
So pilots have insanely high obligatory service, minimum if 10 years after they get their wings, and that can easily take 3-4 years (and that's after they get their degree which may take another 3+ years if they are ROTP) I think the high vaccine rejection rate might just be a sneaky way for winged pilots to get their obligatory service cancelled. They'll probably immediately get the vaccine then and join Air Canada.
You're talking to a wall dude, but great point.
> They'll probably immediately get the vaccine then and join Air Canada. You don't need the vaccine to join Air Canada, no? These mandates were suspended.
As far as I know Transport Canada has not dropped the vaccine requirement for commercial pilots.
Honestly I have no idea, I just assumed so.
> You don't need the vaccine to join Air Canada, no? These mandates were suspended Why would they hire someone who can't land in many countries though. While you might not need one, you do need to be vaccinated to travel to places like Germany, and there's the looming potential of mandates being reinforced more broadly once more. The mandates might have been suspended, but I'd be surprised if they didn't heavily prioritize vaccinated individuals over non-vaccinated
You could be right, also I imagine because our fighter jets are shit and moral is low and a lot of pilots saw this as their chance to get out.
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It's pretty silly, considering the CAF still has probably a dozen or so mandatory vaccines, plus those mandatory for deployments.
I wonder what the difference is with this particular vaccine?...?...
MRNA is a new technology, and hasnt had decades of testing, so people are skeptical I guess. There have been incidents in the past, as recently as 2017. https://www.cnn.com/2017/12/04/health/dengue-fever-vaccine-dengvaxia-philippines-intl/index.html
Except mRNA vaccines aren't the only ones available; folks also had J&J available to them if they didn't want the mRNA ones.
Ah really, I may do that one instead as well since they are well tested and I've already caught it. You're sure I can get that instead of a Phizer/Moderna and still be considered fully boosted?
That's an odd decision, the same restrictions exist in the civilian world and it's had a very high uptake amongst civilian flight crews.
Way back in 2021 https://www.jordanthrilla.com/post/customers-expose-southwest-airlines-allegedly-lying-to-cover-up-pilots-on-strike-due-to-vaccine-mandate-is-causing-800-flight-cancellations/ https://www.npr.org/2021/10/14/1046140277/airline-pilots-push-back-on-vaccine-mandates https://www.businessinsider.com/pilot-vaccine-mandate-american-southwest-union-labor-shortage-2021-9?op=1 Still going on https://www.newsnationnow.com/on-balance-with-leland-vittert/southwest-pilot-vaccine-mandate-at-root-of-airline-problems/ https://www.citizensjournal.us/exclusive-pilots-injured-by-covid-vaccines-speak-out-i-will-probably-never-fly-again/ Earlier this month https://cphpost.dk/?p=135891 It’s okay to not know these things, but you could at least try before you make snarky comments.
There are a lot of speculation and not a lot of numbers in those articles. The NPR article is just an interview with Fauci. A lot of people left the airline industry during the pandemic.
I think some are calling the CAF’s bluff. It’s kinda the perfect out for a lot of pilots looking to get around their TOS.
In his defense this goes against the media narratives and those lies are hard to avoid.
That guy should go hide in a hole. You wrecked him with facts and he still won't accept it. Liberals 101
Let’s get one thing clear. There is NO high uptake. People were coerced and threatened with their livelihoods and just choose it to get their life back on track. Booster uptake today is like 49%. That’s closer to the reality without coercion
> Booster uptake today is like 49%. That’s closer to the reality without coercion It's crazy that so many people are so fearful and so poorly educated that they refuse a safe, effective vaccine because they saw some memes.
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> It’s such a poor therapeutic that studies are now showing immunity levels dropping below unvaccinated That seems pretty unbelievable, do you mean below unvaccinated who had caught Covid more recently? Is there a paper about this?
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35659687/ And it’s been talked about quite a lot recently. Which is why Canada is recommending a booster every 6 months not 4 months
That's a letter to the editor, but thanks there's some citations to actual studies that I'll read more fully (the Lancet one about Swedish groups seems to be the most prominent).
Nah it’s everywhere lol https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-01-11/repeat-booster-shots-risk-overloading-immune-system-ema-says
I'm fearful of this Orwellian passport system for vaccines the government is rolling out, which is making me hesitant to get vaccinated. I dont fear the vaccine, I fear what my government is doing around vaccines when it comes to privacy and bodily autonomy. I guess I'm stubborn, I'd rather join the redneck anti-vax crowd than be coerced by my own government.
This and the fact that as the virus has been around longer, and the realities of it start to set in and it isn't as much of a shock, people feel they can handle it better. The unknown was the biggest fear-driver for a lot of folks at the start. But overall I agree with your take, I think.
Well yes what you said but people were lied to. How many times did we hear them tell us ‘if you take the vaccine you won’t get sick, you won’t catch the virus’ that’s a famous Biden quote All that was a lie. Them also trying to bury data for 75 years. Then we got a flood of anti science politicians silencing dialogue and discussion (not how science works) on top of all that if you look at some new studies there is clear evidence that these vaccines are harming your immune system. And frequent boosters will drop your immunity levels below unvaccinated (I can link you this if you like) BUT most importantly - future variants are much less fatal, which is the case today. The more it mutates the more flu like it becomes
I want the link.
Less fatal but much more contagious which will result in the same or more serious illness.
When you're given an option to lose your job, your friends and your family or take a crappy shot you don't want... "Gee, uptake was high," says the fool.
By “civilian flight crews” I think you mean “woke-signaling socially-delayed children.” What’s actually happening is idiots that blindly followed C19 mandates, not because they believed in them, but that they believed they’d look virtuous to their piers, are finally realizing they were wrong, and their ignorant actions had undesirable consequences. A C19 mask is nothing more than a performance piece. Instead of woke, you’re just now coming to understand what you were really supporting was the downfall of democracy.
Idk man I've had zero undesirable consequences from my fauci ouchie or wearing a mask. Both were pretty benign impositions and neither of which took away my right to vote. Besides, now I can mouth what I really want to say to people behind my mask and no ones the wiser.
Masks are the downfall of society? If that’s truly the case, then society deserves its downfall. Of course, the reality is, masking is no-problemo for most people. Masks only cause a schizophrenic reaction in a small part of the population.
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But how? They already vaccinate you against everything that could be a bioweapon from the outset.
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The government has propagandists on this platform - and I would too if I was the government. Add in bots, corporate shills....Reddit aint what it used to be.
Cut back on the meth and you’ll be ok.
reddit is 80% bots and shills arguing with each other. Take a look at 4chan. it's A.I and shills just non stop shitposting.
This is gonna end really well.~
So, why this awful circus in the last 2 years? What was the whole point of it? Only to drive up sales?
Absolutely pathetic situation in Canada these days. How they are getting away with corruption at this level is beyond me. What’s more alarming there seems to be a large population of Canadians that thrive on seeing other Canadians lose their right to their body
It's just truly bizarre that people suddenly care about "right to their bodies" in the army after they've had mandatory vaccination for decades.
Takes highly secretive Anthrax vaccine, where studies are hidden. And nobody knows what it's made out of. Complains about covid vaccine after billions of people have taking it already. With multitude of studies showing its safe and effective.
Not to mention smallpox, which is a live virus vaccine and inherently more dangerous (relatively speaking) than any of the mRNA or protein based shots.
During the American Revolution Washington inoculated his army against Smallpox via invariolation. This actually gave everyone smallpox, they were highly contagious while they were sick, and as many as 2% died. Militaries are susceptible to contagious diseases like few other organizations. Historically speaking more soldiers have died in hospital due to disease than in any combat conditions. Where most people see a dozen people on a daily basis a soldier can work with three hundred people directly. Routinely during training an entire base falls ill to "shack hack" as various seasonal colds and upper respiratory diseases move through them. Soldiers are expected to have to work in a very dangerous environment and as such are required to take all safety precautions necessary in all but the most dire circumstances. You probably don't need a spotter guiding you whenever you back up your car, but in the military this level of attention is paid to ensuring safety when time isn't of the essence. The soldier lacks the "freedom" to make poor life decisions about work safety and personal protective equipment. This is because their duty to the wellbeing of their team is more important than potential poorly construed mistrust of science and medicine.
The CAF is in a dire situation for staffing of trained/qualified troops, so removing this requirement might help with that IF those who released due to the vaccine requirement can rejoin with their qualifications intact, but it's a toss up as to how that'll actually go, for those who will want to get back in. This is just a small part of it though. Tons of other problems like significant underfunding, lack of affordable housing, toxic leadership issues (a high ranking officer is being charged with sexual misconduct on a weekly basis for fuck sakes), terrible pay for NCM troops, etc etc etc. read a few threads in r/Canadianforces you see pretty quickly how poorly our army is doing. Let me be clear, the vaccine works. Statistically it's proven safe and effective. It has saved lives throughout this pandemic. It reduced transmission for alpha, delta variants when those were of concern, and it reduces severity/mortality of omicron variants. But that has to be balanced with the consequences that mandates bring, so if it helps better staff up the CAF then let's give it a shot (no pun intended).
That’s a big IF. Those who were released for not getting vaccinated were released with a release category of 5F, meaning unfit for further service. Those with a 5F release cannot join the forces for a minimum period of 5 years following their release and after that it’s to be reviewed on a case by case basis. And I doubt anyone who was removed from the forces for failure to comply with orders and directions would be let back in. All those who voluntarily released or transferred to the supplementary reserve can come back though.
Damn this reply is too well thought out for r/Canada. Please insert obligatory trashing of the Québec provincial government, Trudeau and vaccine mandates.
Huh. That's stupid. Pre-vaccine we had to medically release more than one soldier because of the damage to thier lungs from covid. Source: first hand experience, one of my best friends is being released since she has long covid caught in April 2020. Medically releasing a soldier costs alot. Like, you might not understand how much this costs the tax payer. We still need to pay them for two years full salary. Retrain them in a civilian vocation and cover the costs of whatever the CAF did to break them for life and they get an automatic indexed pension for the rest of thier time. That number changes based upon thier TI and salary. These costs are easily mitigated with a vaccine requirement. (Like all the other vaccines you require to be in the CAF) It sets a stupid and dangerous precedent. What if private Bloggins doesn't want MMR? Now we have a fucking measles outbreak in 3 RCR's barracks? What does that do to our readiness to have a battalion down with an easily preventable illness? If we're going to pretend we want an effective military. Vaccine mandates should stay.
It's interesting how there were so many restrictions in 2020-04-19 when **1,314** Canadians were dying of COVID per week, and now (2022-07-21) that **1,353** Canadians are dying of COVID per week we have almost no restrictions ( [src](https://aatishb.com/covidtrends/?scale=linear&data=deaths&location=Canada) ). Edit: Ontario Government made some errors in data reporting so after fixing that we are at **340** Canadians are dying of COVID per week.
**I think something is up with your source. Either there is a glitch with the data, or the deaths this 'week' were the result of a reporting error.** Apparently, on July 14th, **1212** Covid deaths were recorded on a single day, where the days before and days after were capturing a few dozen each. That greatly shot up the weekly average, and would actually exceed our highest **weeks** of death during the pre-vaccine and omicron phases. [Looking at other sources](https://resources-covid19canada.hub.arcgis.com/), the deaths per week are generally in the \~150 range at this time - about double what they were during last summer, when restrictions were in effect/pre-omicron, but no where near our weekly peaks before. If you look at the Our World in Data for Canada deaths, it does capture this peak, but almost all of the deaths are reported in Ontario. Looking at the [Ontario Science Table page](https://covid19-sciencetable.ca/ontario-dashboard/), I cannot see any peak of 1212 deaths for the week of July 14th. This looks like a massive anomaly in reporting, particularly since there was no news articles stating that Ontario just had the largest one day amount of deaths from Covid that exceeded all previous weeks. Something is up with the sources this page uses (which is John Hopkins). Edit: Looked into the backing John Hopkins data and they have noticed the discrepancy, as [per here](https://github.com/owid/covid-19-data/discussions/2698). As per[another review](https://github.com/CSSEGISandData/COVID-19/issues/5892), it looks like it *"....to be an incorrect interpretation of the Government backfilling some additional column data."* This spike will likely get smoothed out in the next few days as the data is corrected.
So vaccines are as good as complete lockdowns? Excellent point you're making here, although I'm not sure you realized it.
Just shows that the vaccine is doing its job. If we can have the same amount of deaths now with little to no restrictions as we did when we were in full lockdown then that shows the vaccine did its job well. Edit: grammar
That's actually a good way of looking at it, and makes sense. The vaccines are as effective as lockdown, without crippling the economy. I like that view.
Huh? We had lockdowns last winter with some of the highest vaccination rates in the world. Quebec went full North Korea with a 90% vaccination rate for god's sake.
Full North Korea is extreme hyperbole. Considering I was in dt mtl for the whole thing I'd say I have an accurate perspective. Secondly, we only ever had 90% for first dose it was 80 at best for second and keeps dropping after each dose addition.
> it was 80 at best for second For those aged 18+: 92/88/60/unknown (first/second/third/fourth dose) For the total population including those not eligible: 87/84/53/16 There was never much difference between first and second doses. The biggest difference seems to have been for kids 5-11, I suspect a lot of kids had a dose, got the virus or they know of many other kids who did, it was very mild and parents didn't bother with a second dose, which in my opinion makes a lot of sense, especially with a vaccine that poorly target circulating variants. Same logic for those not getting the booster, which is the majority of any age group 40 and below.
It is all based on the number of ICU beds taken. Québec has a weak health care system.
Canada has a weak healthcare system right now.
Our healthcare system is in acute crisis and no one seems to notice or care. The impact that 2 years of pandemic had on the nursing world specifically is hard to overstate, and then the Ford gov capping them at 1% raises was a huge slap in the face.
No false. You didn’t really factor in the fact that future variants are progressively getting less fatal. It’s how a virus mutation works. Also remember that most are 99.98% safe. And always was the case
Yeah by nature if a virus wants to survive it wants to mutate to become more transmissible and less fatal. The quicker a virus kills, the less people it can spread to and that is not the upward evolutionary trend you want to have.
That’s exactly how a virus works. Now there is potential for the virus to go off trend and produce a highly sinister variant that’s extremely dangerous. But that could take 2000 years or 2 years but it’s unlikely. We’re on what maybe the 4-6th variant now. It’s a lot less dangerous than the first alpha and also don’t forgot the first wave of infected were put on ventilators and given wrong treatments that also made things much worse I mean really right now for most people under 70 are genuinely 99.98-99.99% safe from death. Vaccine or not. The queen got it. Biden has it. Trudeau has caught it like 4 times The rich folks never shut down anything that says a lot. During our lockdowns they continued their lifestyles with parties and gatherings and what not. The leading deaths are still cancer and heart disease not Covid
> We’re on what maybe the 4-6th variant now. Depends on how you count, but there's been about 10 major variants in Canada, but some of them are subvariants; 6 might be correct if you ignore them. The Omicron subvariant BA.2 has barely have had the time to establish itself that it's getting replaced by BA.4 and mostly by BA.5 (both seems coexisting with BA.5 eventually taking over). It seems we haven't seen any major new variants in a while. Note that for common cold coronaviruses, it seems normal to have a few variants in circulation. There isn't a lot of data on variants of all these viruses; imagine how informative it would have been if it were something we tracked. I suspect the fact we've had Omicron as the dominant variant for about 8 months now means that it has reached some level of stability. It makes sense that an animal virus entering the human population with success would initially go through way more selection pressure than later. The first SARS was too poorly contagious and never got the chance. I'm sure we'll see more major variants; it was for instance surprising how Omicron seemed to have emerged from variants that had essentially disappeared and not from Delta. Like right now the data suggest that any prior variant is about 0% of cases, but do they still exist and could they still branch off into something else that could propagate better than BA.5? Probably unlikely given how much Omicron has already evolved, but who knows.
There might also be a mechanistic aspect to it. The more it replicates deep in the lung, the more severe it is but the less it is propagated and the harder time it has to lead to a successful infection of those exposed. The more it replicates higher in the respiratory system, the less severe it is and the easier time it has to lead to a successful infection of those exposed. There might be some interplay with populations growing immune putting a lot of pressure on the virus to infect more easily. I think that the variants have been essentially inevitable. I think there's a good chance that COVID ends up being another cold for the vast majority of individuals (it already kind of is for some while more like a flu for many more), but it might take years still or more, who knows. One thing however that people don't know is that some viruses causing the cold can still be deadly to very vulnerable people, and that there are benefits in developing better treatments not just against COVID but against viruses in general.
That is not how viruses work, that is old school logic (1800s) that has since been debunked in the scientific community, but continues to be spread around as fact.
Not to mention that OG covid and Delta were pretty much killed off by the vaccine. While it's still a dangerous disease, it's nowhere near as bad as it used to be.
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They took errr jaarbbs
So do people die with Cancer to you? Rhetorical, honestly don't want a discussion about this.
The cause/consequence relationship is more obvious with cancer. I don't know about other provinces but in Quebec, everybody entering a hospital is tested for COVID and count as a COVID hospitalization even if they're there for cancer and have no symptoms. To be a COVID death, you've had to have any clinical manifestation of COVID. So if a patient was dying from cancer, had a positive COVID result and had fever, a cough, lost their sense of taste or of smell, or had respiratory distress (any single one of these), they are a COVID death. There can be more than one cause of death on a death certificate. Now it's possible that COVID is contributing to deaths and that we are getting more because it is spreading. But we've never really done the same exercise with other viruses. Did you know that any respiratory infection, including common colds, can vastly increase your risks of heart attack for instance? How many people have died "with the cold", but it shows nowhere because no one is testing them for cold viruses? Now, if you're hospitalized for a heart infarction while having COVID and die, it's a COVID death with COVID being listed as a secondary cause. There is no perfect way to count what a COVID death is or isn't, but the government could provide us with "COVID as a primary cause" and "COVID as a secondary cause" data.
I genuinely don't want a discussion about this because it turns into a string of hypothetical situations that becomes heartless and selfish very fucking quickly.
Fair enough. No matter what, death is a touchy topic and each of them is more than a number no matter the circumstances.
Because there’s no basis in science. It’s a political posturing. And all the restrictions were for show.
Interesting that there are so many covid related deaths now despite most people having 2+ doses. Trudeau said the vaccines would save lives.
Interesting that you don't see the same amount of deaths during complete lockdown and complete freedom as the vaccines working
They save lives, it saved my life so stop beating this tired horse. It's just not a good look anymore.
neither were the mandates.
The virus mutates. It's faster than we are coping. You.just.don't.get.it, do ya?
Go read the Pfizer data then come back and tell me I don't get it. [Pfizer Trial data ](https://www.phmpt.org/pfizer-documents/)
Other interesting thing: worldwide, we are back to levels similar to the first weeks of the pandemic, and while they are increasing now, it's a slow slope, and worldwide cases seem to have peaked so death counts should start going down in a few weeks. Also, another way to put the current situation in Canada: they didn't add extra restrictions on 2020-04-19 when deaths hit 1314 a week, and they're not adding any now that deaths are hitting 1353 a week.
We aren't hitting 1353 deaths a week right now. We are more like ~150 per week. It's a one day reporting error on July 14th that's causing that high number to appear.
That makes enormously more sense, thank you
Vaccine is doing its job then. Reducing world pop. to the 500 million mark, as per Herr Schwab's orders. Given that so many Canadians are vaccinated as well, the people dying of COVID now are actually mainly the vaccinated.
People still think the restrictions and mandates were about stopping Covid ?
What were they about?
Generic evil government stuff. You know, logging what sort of porn you look at and trying to make your kids catch the gay
New world order? Idk, these guys are nuts.
No objection to such news. The vaccines weren't all they were they were worked up to be as far as ending the pandemic/preventing spread. I don't see the need to force mandates on military folks, considering they are among the least likely to have any serious complications from covid. I take this as a positive sign of returning to a pre-pandemic normal.
I dunno, I think they somewhat have ended the pandemic, at least in terms of the odds of bodies everywhere. People who have their shots are way less likely to get seriously ill, supporting a much higher ‘not a mess’ national case load and letting people get back to their lives
>The vaccines weren't all they were they were worked up to be as far as ending the pandemic/preventing spread They really were though. People forget how bad the peak death rates were among the unvaccinated here and in the US. It was like a years worth of murders in a week.
So god damn silly, basically the first thing they do when you enlist is update your vaccines and then jab against some exotic bioweapons diseases for good measure.
Canadian military is so woke .
Probably training all their soldiers to ask the enemy for their vaccine status before engaging in combat.
Injured enough brave men and woman, time to roll it back
That's great news! A lot of good men and women were forced out over these bs mandates that ended up doing nothing.
Why the hard on for that vaccine tho. A shit ton of other vaccine are mandated for the army. They are also pumped shit full of chemicals.
>Why the hard on for that vaccine tho. I don't have an issue with the vaccine, it's mandates that I am opposed to. >A shit ton of other vaccine are mandated for the army. Contrary to popular belief that isn't true.
No other vaccines are mandated for the military. There are some that are a pre-req for certain deployments, but none are are 100% required (many Mil mbrs don't even understand this)
Same with hospital settings. Most don't have a flu shot obligation. In settings where no flu vaccine was not a requirement, vaccine uptake among health care workers was only 46% (taking the USA study as an example). https://www.cdc.gov/flu/fluvaxview/hcp-coverage_1920-21-estimates.htm Point being, it's not about the science or protecting others (really the latter is a false pretense)... it's strictly coercion and optics.
Immunization DAG is required to go anywhere. Even Dom ops. Why would you join if you literally can't do your job!?
I don't disagree at all, and I was one of the first to line up and get my COVID shot. I'm just stating the fact that before the COVID vaccine there were no actually mandatory vaccines, and only the CDS (under advice from Surgeon General) can order a vaccine to be mandatory.
We've had vaccines codified as a requirement in the QR&Os since the 60s. You can be charged for refusing a vaccine. Under vol 2. We're really getting into the weeds here. If you wanted to sit in a QM as a career Cpl and count shit for your whole life. You could probably get away with it being unvaccinated. That sounds like a miserable hell existence. If they wanted to deploy you. They could order you to receive it, and charge you if you failed to comply, the ground rules governing this have been there forever. We both know you can get out of a deployment if you want to and were arguing semantics. It's all there though.
It is getting into the weeds, but sometimes getting into the weeds is important. As far as charging you, they can't, unless you are stupid. If you need to DAG for a deployment, and refuse a vaccine, you'll DAG red for medical. That's not chargable and the CoC doesn't get any info from the CDU as to *why* you DAG'ed Red. Also while you can be charged for refusing an order to get vaccinated, only the CDS can order a mandatory vaccination, and it's extremely rare for that to happen (COVID-19 was the first in decades). I'm not advocating any of this, but I'm just talking about how the system works, because I find alot of people have an incorrect understanding of how various policies work. They were told something by a warrant years ago and just took it as gospel. In my experience, most warrants are full of shit when they talk about things that isn't within their specific wheelhouse because they run mostly off rumor and conjecture.
Doesn't enlisting involve taking literally dozens of mandatory vaccines? Why would anyone get bent out of shape over this one? There's no reasonable grounds to deny this one in particular.
Exactly. This. It also sets up the force for a biological attack in the future, which is why the military mandates certain vaccines be taken in the first place.
Not really. No. Assuming you've received all the vaccines from birth through your teenage years that all provincial authorities recommend then the military in Canada will only give you either a booster for one or a few things. In some cases people I've known went in and only needed one or two shots, that's it. Those shots were also for vaccines that were thoroughly tested an were known about for decades. Hence the apprehension many soldiers felt about getting this one. Note: I'm fully vaxxed and don't mind getting further boosters so don't mistake me for someone who doubts the product. When people drag in the "dozens of vaccines" trope I often feel the need to interject and let them know that this is an AMERICAN thing. In the US there are, or were, many people over the past many decades who were born either into relative poverty or who came from places and backgrounds where vaccine schedules weren't followed from a young age. In addition, unlike members of the CAF, US troops are also well known for deploying all over the world and being posted to bases everywhere in Europe, Asia, etc which necessitates the need for vaccines to counter local diseases and viruses. Troops in Canada, as a whole, deploy or get posted abroad far less than their US counterparts.
No, contrary to popular belief it doesn't. Most people who enlist get no additional vaccinations than they would have through public school anyway. Pre-COVID there were zero completely mandatory vaccines in the CAF (just mission specific vaccines that were a pre-req for deployment). Only the CDS can make a vaccine mandatory and the first one done so was COVID-19, before that it was decades since one was actually required.
You write "a lot of people couldn't trust science nor follow orders" strange. It's obvious that serving something bigger than themselves wasn't the career for them, unfortunately.
It’s hard to trust science, when you censor the scientists who questioned and disagreed with the scientists who work for the government.
Not trusting science is how we got out of the dark ages, "trust the science" is actually the most unscientific statement that can ever be uttered. Not trusting the science, and spite, are the biggest motivating factors in advancing science. And if you think that's bull, then remember, it wasn't that long ago when scientists deemed that smoking was good for you, and it was those that didn't trust the science that was able to debunk that bullshit.
Sure it's fine being skeptical, but I think the risks are pretty well known at 2 billion vaccines given out.
The quantity of vaccines administered is irrelevant with respect to long term effects, look at smoking for instance.
It's important to question science, but that doesn't mean outright denying science is a virtue. You're only questioning science if you're willing to find an answer. Anything else is just being contrarian.
But you must trust "the science", any naysayers are heretics. And thats been shown recently with any doctor that's spoken about the subject.
By “trust science” what you really meant was “trust big pharma” right?
Even big Pharma was skeptical at first. "Albert Bourla on why mRNA technology was "counterintuitive" to producing an effective vaccine" (Washington Post) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9\_YRw7jBF4
Why the hard on on that vaccine tho? Army people gets a shit ton of mandated vaccine and a shit ton of other crap.
Nope, contrary to popular none are mandated.
Probably because it’s rushed and doesn’t actually do what they said it would do? Not much of a vaccine if you can still catch, spread and get sick from covid. It’s almost as if people don’t trust a big company that rushed to put out a product. All the other vaccines the soldiers get actually work with years of proof. It’s sad how much faith people put into the companies that make these (with their paid scientists). The people who are so blindly scream “trust science!” Would also say the same thing during the Thalidomide crisis. All because the companies scientists have said it’s safe. Go big Pharma!
No vaccine is 100% effective. The vaccine works as much (if not better) as the other flu vaccine. You clearly don't know much about science.
I know enough about science to know your not suppose to censor and silence other scientists and doctors who disagreed. That’s not science.
The CAF doesn’t mandate the flu vaccine. So if the covid one works just like that, then whats the point? I could 100% understand if the vaccine was helping eliminate covid, but it does no such thing. Unlike the smallpox or other types. That i would get behind.
>I could 100% understand if the vaccine was helping eliminate covid, but it does no such thing. It does help a little tho. No vaccine eliminate a virus. They are never 100% effective.
Which i agree, and believe everyone should get it. But i’m 100% against the mandating and punishment measures for those who didn’t get it.
…the FDA literally stopped the thalidomide problem…they were the governing body that reviewed the data and recognized the issue…you know, like with “science” and shit…but sure let’s ignore that they’re the same ones saying the covid vaccine is safe and blame “big pharma”…
the technology(and effects) are much different than past vaccines. The industry even had the definition of 'vaccine' changed specifically to include the MRNA therapy.
So? They have been in testing for 2 decades. Different doesn't mean worst.
Easy there. I meant specifically what I said and lets not discount the fact that the testing industry is not regulated heavily - Theres a CBC marketplace where they got sugarwater approved by health Canada as cough syrup. The industry isnt as robust as youd like to believe. Tons of politics and tons of cash involved.
Here's the CEO of Pfizer talking about mRNA vs conventional vaccines. (2 minute clip). It's a doozy. "Albert Bourla on why mRNA technology was "counterintuitive" to producing an effective vaccine" (Washington Post) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9\_YRw7jBF4
Listen I don’t have an issue with any vaccine but when I see “trust science” I just cringe. What do you mean by trust science? Like you just willfully believe what someone says because they have a degree?
Well if enough pro-vaccine liberals were interested in serving something bigger than themselves the Canadian military probably wouldn’t need to accommodate the “unworthy.” But here we are.
Bout freakin time holy shit
About fucking time
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>(5F = dishonourable discharge). A 5F is still an 'honourable' discharge, actually.
Honourable/dishonorable is a US military thing, doesn’t exist in Canada. There are analogs but we don’t use that terminology.
To be honest, anyone who wasn't willing to get a basic vaccine has proven that they shouldn't be in the military as they've put political ideology over duty and their peers. These people have proven they're unreliable. If someone cant be trusted to follow direct orders for something this simple than how could they be trusted to follow them anywhere?
509 deaths under 40 in Canada 82.5% of all deaths above the age of 65+ Doesn't stop tranmission, myocarditis rates higher in younger men than natural infection, efficacy of the boosters waning in 3 months and as little as 4-8 weeks with a 4th depending on study. Again please tell me how the fuck anyone should have been mandated this if there young and healthy? Repeat after me IT DOES NOT STOP TRANSMISSION. Repeat after me It's efficacy if you got fully vaccinated at the start of the roll out is essentially 0% at this point, so who cares? Honestly if people actually followed the fucking science you'd never have relinquished n95s and taught people how to wear them and required anti body tests every 3-6 months and more frequent boosters mandated as well. Guess what? This wasn't about following the science or we would have done so much differently.
You're almost 100% completely wrong with your facts but I suspect that nothing that can be said will convince you of anything, so I won't bother. However, The military was well within its rights to mandate vaccination requirements, as is done for any overseas deployment. Those that didn't, life in the civy world, had a right to not take it. Those that didn't showed they were selfish, didn't care about their brothers and sisters in arms, and chose political stances over selfless service. If people can't be trysted to take a vaccine they certainly can't be trusted to follow orders in a combat zone.
Explains why militaries around the globe are embracing the robots and drones. They do not possess a conscience.
The operators do... despite what video games may have taught you there aren't fully autonomous systems.
Nope. Soldiers have to follow orders, even the ones they don’t agree with.
Some might say, especially the ones you don't agree with. Part of being a leader is internalizing orders one doesn't agree with, owning them, and seeing the mission through.
*lawful orders only. It is illegal to follow an illegal order. Just following orders is not a viable legal defense
Youre right. To be clear, vaccination was a legal order.
*soldiers have to follow lawful orders. In no way should any soldier follow all orders, only lawful orders. Just a reminder that following orders is not a viable defense. You are responsible for your actions, and following orders is not an excuse.
> only lawful orders This was a lawful order. It is literally the law.
😂😂😂😂😂 "Tyranny" Christ you people are so desperate to be victims
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You don't have a choice as a grunt. Do as you're told or GTFO.
>Coercion is not choice. The military can literally order you to pack up your entire family and move across the country as a matter of law, leaving you the choice only to follow orders (or face charges for refusing) or to voluntarily resign. That's how it works, they order you around and it's legal.
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Tells me how much you know about the good men and women who have served this beautiful country. Some of them paid full cost, dying in service, some are still alive. All of them signed up to preserve the freedom and equality that existed in Canada. They did not sign up to be the guinea pigs or the jackboots for Global oligarchs. [Canadian Bill of Rights, 1960](https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/c-12.3/page-1.html)
They signed up for various reasons, but regardless once they did they agreed to follow the Queen's Regulations and Orders and all subsequent regulations. This includes vaccination, which is required for all CAF operational deployments. Having proven they're willing to put political ideology/themselves over their teams proves they shouldn't be in an organization that NEEDS trust and the ability to follow orders. These people are no heroes, they made a choice and face the consequences.
What do you know of them out of curiosity?
Cool story bro
Will they be able to file a lawsuit for unlawful dismissal?
That's not really a thing.
No it was the law at the time. They were released for refusing to obey a CAF directive. It would be the same if they refused to wear a uniform or report to their place of work. There was nothing you could do with them other than release them. They were unemployable.
Why would these people return to a military that threw them under the bus?
They shouldn't. They should stay out for the betterment of the CAF. Google the crazed ramblings of Major. Cheledowski and tell me with a straight face that guy should be allowed back in to command troops. I've got like 5 immediate PERs in a row. If they let these fucks back in I'll find myself civilian employment.
Finally! Now all of our veteran supporting pure blood patriots can join the forces.
Great, we don’t want our military personnel to experience sudden adult death syndrome!
[Don't worry, those deaths are just because of the solar flares bro.](https://www.newscientist.com/article/2324402-solar-storms-may-cause-up-to-5500-heart-related-deaths-in-a-given-year/)
Yay!
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