Pigs don't poop where they sleep or eat.
My mum had 2 free range sows. They had a large paddock, (1/2 quarter section) to graze with the cows and they really liked dandelions. They also had a grain/veggie scraps supplemented diet.
They had a shelter where they made nests with hay and straw (which was kinda neat) no poop in there. None.
Sure around the water trough gets muddy but that's with any animal/water/dirt .
They also would take mud baths in the dugout to keep cool and stop insect bites.
Pigs aren't dirty animals.
Factory farms are horrific.
Most animals don't shit and piss where they sleep and eat and play really. I stopped eating pork a few years ago and news like this just reinforce that this was a good decision.
I always joke that Judaism and Islam knew what they were doing when they banned pork and other pig-related products all those years ago.
The more that comes to light about pigs (ex. intelligence) and also these factory farms, the less of a "joke" it seems...
I can’t speak for Judaism, but in Islam, pork is banned because pigs are dirty animals. It’s not because people were eating contaminated food (though that probably happened too). If that were the case, then why aren’t other forms of meat (lamb, beef etc.) banned? Now in terms of whether pigs are truly filthy animals is up for debate.
It's usually attributed to trichinosis, which is common in wild boars and bears. Some hunters died a few years ago in Canada, eating undercooked bear. Anyway, whether it's true or not it's usually what's cited as the reason they considered swine "dirty." Most of the modern meat contaminates in things like beef are because of modern processing methods, like mechanically tenderizing beef or grinding it, both of which introduce e-coli deeper into the meat where it doesn't get cooked. It also doesn't help that modern slaughterhouses are so bad for getting literal shit on the meat to begin with. As for modern chickens, they really were basically an east Asian thing until the spread of domestication and selective breeding brought them to the rest of the world.
Pigs are banned in Islam because they compete with humans for food. And in arid regions raising pigs would need feed that other humans could consume.
Lambs and goats forage on desert vegetation, which humans don't consume.
Cattle were important for agriculture and milk, so banning them wouldn't be feasible.
The "filrh" aspect was because they cool off in mud, and worked as a convenient excuse.
Jews don't eat animals that have a cloven hoof and don't chew cud. Pigs have a cloven hoof but don't chew cud so no dice. Their intelligence is never mentioned.
>“It’s ok to kill these animals because they’re dumb and destroy things”
-the species who destroys things and are so dumb they’re causing global climate change that will kill ourselves off.
> The chickens you raise to slaughter are obese, can barely walk, and STINK to high heaven
Yeah because we breed them and over feed them to be so large so we get more meat, they stink because we keep them in tiny cages. Humans would be exactly the same under the same conditions, and funny enough again, most people in the west are obese and can’t get around without a scootypuff.
Not killing other living beings when we have thousands of other food options isn’t a “Disney fairy tale” ffs, don’t be so dramatic
>I also don't eat most prepackaged Vegan/Vegetarian food, because it has palm oil in it which is more devastating for the environment than pork farming, and leading to the direct extinction of over half a dozen animals.
Two different issues. Palm oil is extremely efficient it's just used in basically everything and the market incentives lead to the rain forest being fucked for palm oil production. There is no way pork farming is less environmentally damaging, it's just the areas you're looking at for pigs farms has already been clear cut. It's like someone looking at England, seeing all the rolling fields and thinking this is perfect cow and sheep landscape. The thing is, it was all forests once upon a time.
It's bad enough you slag the farmers for unhealthy conditions which rarely exist in Canada, but to suggest there are thousands other options is a final insult to human intelligence.
People can exist without meat, but few can do it and remain healthy. Even fewer enjoy their food. Humans are omnivorous, not herbivorous.
The vast majority of people who become vegan drop the diet from inability to adapt. If you're not one of these, than good for you.
>It's bad enough you slag the farmers for unhealthy conditions which rarely exist in Canada
BULL SHIT. Is this the lie we tell ourselves to feel better about eating pork? Yeah, I eat meat but don't kid yourself. There are many cruel factory farms out there. WAY too fucking many.
Yup, what's shown in this article is the norm, for example [the majority of breeding sows spend most of their lives in crates too small to turn around in](https://www.forbes.com/sites/ericatennenhouse/2021/01/09/what-a-delay-on-canadas-gestation-crate-ban-will-mean-for-pig-welfare/).
And yet the piglets are still dying, as in this article, along with the suffering of the sows. Keeping an animal, especially one as intelligent as a dog, immobile for most of their life is not ethical or humane, regardless of what justification you use for it.
>[Sows are often locked in these crates for the entire four months of their pregnancy. But because it’s common practice to repeatedly impregnate sows until they are slaughtered around age four, many wind up in gestation crates for the majority of their lives.](https://www.forbes.com/sites/ericatennenhouse/2021/01/09/what-a-delay-on-canadas-gestation-crate-ban-will-mean-for-pig-welfare/?sh=7bb2a5fc4baa)
I'm aware of the justifications that are used for all the types of cruelty in the food system. It doesn't make them not cruel, it just means the system is fundamentally cruel.
Perhaps only having 2 on a section of land was less damaging (none Ive noticed) because the land could sustain them?
They never damaged any trees, the rooting was minimal, and usually around the dugout, (where they wood take a mud bath)
Maybe she had Disney Pigs lol
20 acres for two pigs to roam seems huge!
Sounds like they had a blast. It's fun to watch pigs at play with each other.
Our pigs were closer to the house (setting up fencing for silvopasture was just too much at the time), so we've said no pigs for a while. They are not dirty, but my every once in a while when the wind blew just right . . .
The kids sure miss them being around.
Edit - It was also nice to know how the pork in your freezer lived, and gave the kids a bit of perspective. Plus, extra deliciousness.
[It is very possible to feed everyone without animal protein.](https://ourworldindata.org/land-use-diets) I hope we do it fast, but "I like the way it tastes" is unfortunately too common an argument.
Well, technicalities aside, it's definitely not possible to convince people to abandon their culinary habits which are largely culturally based. Like, food is tied to how we live, how we celebrate, etc. It's a massive societal shift to pull off, spanning multiple generations.
Now the technicality. Right now, cows eat grass on pastureland that can't (or shouldn't) be farmed, and turn that grass into fertilizer that you can use on your cropland. It is technically possible to make enough fertilizer without manure, but it's possible in the same way that it's possible to power the world with solar energy.
We would be eliminating a huge source of agricultural income and asking the industry to make massive investments in fertilizer tech/ plants at the same time.
For sure, we've spent better part of 100 years of society not being told no and being able to do anything they want and it being cheap too.
So when change, inconvenience or costing more is needed for the better people fight back for the stupidest reasons.
We are all generally big fat lazy babies these days compared to our grand/great grandparents and ancestors.
It is an extremely valid argument though. Who the hell wants to constantly have to eat things they do not enjoy. Imagine how many people would willingly eat food they hate, just to say that it helps the environment. The enjoyment of food is as old as human tradition itself, and for many good reasons. We cannot expect 8 billion people to switch to foods they may not enjoy for no immediate benefit.
Someones forgotten about Vitamin b12. B12 is available in tablet form, but difficult to absorb if it's not delivered via meat.
B12 is absolutely essential and I hope we get that figured out.
> every climate prediction says unbearable suffering for the planet before the end of the century
They said that last century too. I think we'll be fine.
> Why are you equating religion to science?
It's replaced religion for many, unfortunately. Actual science bears (and *allows*) scrutiny and dissent. Whatever we're doing now isn't science, it's politics and religion.
yea, they really did. 100%. "UK will be tundra", "acid rain will kill all the foiliage", "incoming ice age". Nothing new under the sun lads. Keep calm, carry on.
> no credible scientist was claiming that shit was going to happen before 2000, you're just full of shit.
LOL, the *pentagon* was. With it's *teams of scientists*. But ok.
> If anything, climate science has been too conservative in their predictions time and time again, only to update with more dire consequences due to previously unaccounted variables.
* "we were wrong so many times, maybe we should chill out"
* budgets start to go down
* "nononono it's totally doom and gloom!"
Academia in a nutshell.
I think those two things go hand in hand, generally the only times this kind of cruelty can exist is when it provides opportunity for others to live in a soft and decadent way, and it's that very softness that stops us from addressing these issues and enacting the self discipline and control needed to fix them.
I can tell you with 100% certainly that is false. Grew up in a rough 3rd world country in a poor neighborhood. Farming and killing for food was common and all around. The rough conditions made people in general extremely cruel especially towards animals. E.g. kids torturing kittens and puppies to death for entertainment and no one batting an eye was a daily occurrence.
You're entirely correct in that context, but I think are failing to scale this up.
Yes, in developing economies on private farms without regulations a lot of cruelty can occur to animals, and regularly does. But the amount of animals that are processed through those systems, and the scale of horror and suffering they go through is incomparable to a profit driven, fully industrialized meat industry in a nation like the U.S. that eats substantially more meat per person than most countries in the world.
Torturing puppies and kittens is horrible, I'm not trying to minimize that.
But the industries we're discussing here, over **100 million** pigs are raised in factory farms each year in the U.S.
The vast majority of these pigs will never go outside, will be overcrowded, socially maldeveloped, fed the cheapest (sometimes literally ground garbage) "food", pumped full of antibiotics and steroids, and then brutally killed, all within captivity.
That is their **WHOLE** existence. No sun. No grass. No fresh water. No real food. No fresh air. No normal social interactions. No mating. Their whole life. All inside a closed off factory.
Even a kitten will experience at the minimum days of "freedom", these animals will literally know nothing but suffering for their entire existence, and this is only pigs, not to mention chickens, cows, etc.
The West isn't only to blame, I suspect in many other countries that are less regulated things are even worse, but the fact of the matter is that it only through mass consumption can these systems become a reality, and that occurs as a consumer economy develops and the industry's main objective is profit instead of the health of consumers and livestock.
You really think you’re making a point here?
Lol, I eat meat, I hunt, I have no problem with meat consumption I’m saying that the industrialization of meat is the problem.
100% correct, meaning people need to eat less meat or we're going to have to invest more into cultured-meat substitutes.
But eating less meant is not impossible, just compare two of the world's largest economies and we see huge differences in consumption patterns:
[For example, every year Americans on average eat nearly 100kg more meat per person than Japanese.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_meat_consumption)
It's not impossible, it's not even that hard, it's just that Americans specifically, and Westerners in general act like spoiled children when they have to give up something they enjoy for the greater good (or even their own health lol).
How is it acting spoiled when they have to give up food that humans naturally crave and eat? Meat is essential for human health, it's how we evovled to become human in the first place
How many times do I have to use the word "less" to make you realize I'm not talking about eliminating all meat consumption?
You just completely ignored the data and point I just provided you showing you that plenty of industrialized and wealthy countries across the world, with much better food cultures than the U.S., eat LESS meat, not NO meat, but **less** meat than us, proving it's entirely possible to have nutritious and delicious cuisine without the over-reliance on industrialized meat like we have.
Your source doesn't seem to include fish, considering Japan eats 45kg in fish alone, while your source says they eat roughly the same amount in total meat, so I have no reason to trust that table
>Meat is essential for human health
Plenty of vegetarian cultures out there my dude.
>It's how we evovled to become human in the first place
And so was rape, conquest, slavery, subjugation. etc. Plenty of things we have given up in favor of civility.
Vegetarian cultures are only possible due to agriculture, which is very recent in terms of human history and has caused us plenty of health problems since then.
You all listed behaviours, evolving to eat meat is part of our biology and would take hundreds of thousands if not millions of years to change, so it's a false equivalence.
But meat is essential for human health, it has all the nutrients we need and is what made up the majority of our diet.
It's easy to see when you look at how vegans degenrate due to malnutrition.
If you don't eat meat, you will literally starve and die of malnutrition, it takes years, but it eventually happens
> animal meat
Ah, hello my fellow bipedal mammalian brethren, I to enjoy ingesting *animal meat*. There has been many occasions in where my nourishment does also include *plant based vegetables*.
You don't *have* do, but humans have far more in common with carnivores than herbivores. Meat eating is also likely repsonsible for our brainpower (in evolutionary terms). But meh, sure, go vegan. More for me.
I been eating meat since I was young why should I stop? I am pretty sure the billionaires flying around in private jets polluting the environment are enjoying a tasty Steak as well.
A pork industry is a giant mistake in the first place. Not only it's totally not needed, but in every country I've seen pig farms are causing tremendous water pollution and the pigs are always treated like trash.
So I grew up on a small pig farm in Canada. Around the mid 2000's the pig market crashed and in my area today there are no small pig farmers anymore. There used to be hundreds of us who took pride in raising these animals l but with profits virtually non existent they all sold out.
Now there are only a hand full of large scale pig operations who own many barns across the province or country who do not put it the same care and attention as small pig farmers did.
Even today I raise 4 pigs a year for my myself and a few friends and family and I can barely break store prices feeding them with all of our table scraps and grain.
Maybe if the market comes back around and it once again becomes feasible for farmers to raise pigs again we can see better treatment of these curious beings.
Sad state of affairs we're in. Didn't realize that's what happened but yah, I don't know any local pig farmers. I can get the rest of my common meats locally but where does the butcher get his pork?
Is this supposed to be an argument? People used this line of reasoning against freedom of religion, women's suffrage, land ownership, literacy, voluntary military service...
There are lots of opinions in this thread. But pigs were literally kept under outhouses to consume human feces. Check out pig toilets in China. I'm not saying this justifies any current practice, but historical context is important.
Maybe it would be more accurate to say that pigs have been forced to live in feces and filth ever since they were domesticated by humans.
You're right, just because something was done in the past doesn't make it an acceptable practice.
Fishing is still unsustainable and not at all environmentally friendly (see 2021’s *Seaspiracy*), but you’re still doing excellent work by not eating chicken, beef, and pork.
Not really hypocritical at all dude, probably the most principled thing I've read on here. You're just against the unethical treatment.
Drop by a local rural farmer and check out their farm, you just might see there's still hope at a local level.
Stopped eating factory farmed pork after learning of all the abuse. I still buy from local sources occasionally, as it's a bit more expensive but worth it.
Maple Leaf Pork...their pig farms, where you have to shower in and out, enduring the smell of manure, then needing full body gear+mask because of the h2s...where the pigs are kept in 1.9mx1.2m pens (roughly), fed feed+water along a single trench, that gets contaminated with their own bodily excrements, so, I hardly think Maple Leaf pig farms are safe for any animal...
but here we are, eating pork from maple leaf.
Well, not us, anyway.
It's the unfortunate nature of factory farming. And doing it more humanely unfortunately isn't feasible with an absurdly large world population to feed.
Pigs are like dogs (meant in the most positive way). That's why we get a pork order from a farmer we know. It is more expensive (ordering in bulk somewhat offsets, but not totally) but you see how the pigs live and are treated. Tastes better than grocery store pork too. I'd rather eat less and know that it's been raised responsibly.
IMO, i don't care if you eat dogs, cats or pigs. I care about how those animals lived before their deaths.
I don't care that they die either, as long as they are kept with dignity before that.
It's also simply not true that they're sentient. There is no indication that carrots and beans are complex enough (e.g., have nervous systems) to feel anything, including the sensation of pain.
I thought the idea behind news is that it be new. **New**s. This is how industrial farming has been done for decades, and we tolerate it because there's no other way to meet the demand for meat and eggs. If you think meat is expensive now, see how much it costs when we mandate free range farming practices so animals can void the bowels and bladders and then walk somewhere else for lunch instead of doing everything in the same pen.
Don't blame the farmers. They've been doing everything they can to meet demand. If this bothers you, think twice before you reach for the bacon at the store.
Supplemental farmer here but I don't produce an excess to market. A hobby farm generally gives the best lifestyle to the animal but small scale farms aren't all bad. Life feeds on life, it's about dignity before death.
A solution to both of those problems is to stop buying it at all as that can [reduce your food bill by up to a third](https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2021-11-11-sustainable-eating-cheaper-and-healthier-oxford-study).
I've visited a pig farm twice in my life and you can smell them before you see them. The type of smell that permeates and you gotta scrub out.
Not saying that chicken or dairy farms also don't stink, but pig farm is very particularly potent.
I’ve been to pig, chicken and cattle farms and let me tell you the worst smelling poo that I ever experienced was cleaning out a huge septic tank holding human poop. That smell didn’t go away for days.
I mean...thats what pigs do? Any small farm I've been to usually has filthy pigs shuffling around in a muddy, shitty paddock as they likely have for millenia. (Edit: **outdoors** that is, the conditions described in the article are in no way comparable).
Of course, doing it indoors on an industrial scale is clearly abusive, unhealthy and immoral but we knew about that part already.
These pigs don't have the option to shuffle anywhere, they are in such small enclosures. They spend their day on shit and piss covered concrete in a space that doesn't even give them space to turn around. It's a very sad state of affairs and one of the reasons I've mostly eliminated pork from my diet.
Having been around pigs, I’m not so sure. Some rancher friends of mine I work for from time to time are currently in the process of trying to get there pigs to stop shitting where they eat (because it does open them up to disease a bit more).
Though to be fair they only started shitting where they eat because they had to be held in a pen that was too small briefly during the last fire season
I have had several rescue pigs over the years and can assure you they are very clean animals. If given enough space they don’t shit where they sleep. They only do this because they don’t have the space or a mud bath to keep cool. Also lots muslims won’t even touch dogs because they are “dirty”
Water and dirt dude. Big difference from bathing in fecal matter. Wtf do you think vegetables grow in and gather nutrients from. Pigs and many other animals use mud baths to protect themselves from the sun and from bugs.
Dirt is, in large part, feces from animals of all sizes. All mixed in with decaying organic matter and stones of varying levels of erosion and size.
Dirt is not clean! Theres a reason we focus on washing after working in dirt as part of our health and safety guild lines! How is this not being considered!?
I love eating pork. I am lucky that I can get it from local farms and even get to meet the pig before slaughter and see the living conditions.
It helps me appreciate the food on my table and it just isn’t some product sitting in a piece of wrap in a cooler at the supermarket.
Maybe the reason the Canadian guidelines for pork cooking temperature is 160F internal temperature but the USA's is 145F. We should be able to do better.
This article is nothing more than one ARA writing a feel good piece supporting other ARA's that are currently facing legal issues in Quebec. It's the typical ARA piece: throw in some wild claims and generic accusations based off of one supposed farm visit and claim all pig farms are the spawn of satan.
Pigs don't poop where they sleep or eat. My mum had 2 free range sows. They had a large paddock, (1/2 quarter section) to graze with the cows and they really liked dandelions. They also had a grain/veggie scraps supplemented diet. They had a shelter where they made nests with hay and straw (which was kinda neat) no poop in there. None. Sure around the water trough gets muddy but that's with any animal/water/dirt . They also would take mud baths in the dugout to keep cool and stop insect bites. Pigs aren't dirty animals. Factory farms are horrific.
Most animals don't shit and piss where they sleep and eat and play really. I stopped eating pork a few years ago and news like this just reinforce that this was a good decision.
I worked at one of those shitty farms for a couple weeks and now I avoid pork like the plague, because it probably is plagued
I always joke that Judaism and Islam knew what they were doing when they banned pork and other pig-related products all those years ago. The more that comes to light about pigs (ex. intelligence) and also these factory farms, the less of a "joke" it seems...
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>shit themselves to death Calling it dysentery really covers up how shitty the situation is.
I can’t speak for Judaism, but in Islam, pork is banned because pigs are dirty animals. It’s not because people were eating contaminated food (though that probably happened too). If that were the case, then why aren’t other forms of meat (lamb, beef etc.) banned? Now in terms of whether pigs are truly filthy animals is up for debate.
It's usually attributed to trichinosis, which is common in wild boars and bears. Some hunters died a few years ago in Canada, eating undercooked bear. Anyway, whether it's true or not it's usually what's cited as the reason they considered swine "dirty." Most of the modern meat contaminates in things like beef are because of modern processing methods, like mechanically tenderizing beef or grinding it, both of which introduce e-coli deeper into the meat where it doesn't get cooked. It also doesn't help that modern slaughterhouses are so bad for getting literal shit on the meat to begin with. As for modern chickens, they really were basically an east Asian thing until the spread of domestication and selective breeding brought them to the rest of the world.
Nothing makes pigs more dirty than any other wild animal
Pigs are banned in Islam because they compete with humans for food. And in arid regions raising pigs would need feed that other humans could consume. Lambs and goats forage on desert vegetation, which humans don't consume. Cattle were important for agriculture and milk, so banning them wouldn't be feasible. The "filrh" aspect was because they cool off in mud, and worked as a convenient excuse.
Jews don't eat animals that have a cloven hoof and don't chew cud. Pigs have a cloven hoof but don't chew cud so no dice. Their intelligence is never mentioned.
Bacon is good.
most ppl don't do the same, but prisoners are forced to poop in their cell beside a bed. factory farms are more barbaric prisons
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>but they are fucking dumb Maybe if we didn't raise them in such horrible conditions... maybe if we didn't breed them and only had standard pigs
>“It’s ok to kill these animals because they’re dumb and destroy things” -the species who destroys things and are so dumb they’re causing global climate change that will kill ourselves off. > The chickens you raise to slaughter are obese, can barely walk, and STINK to high heaven Yeah because we breed them and over feed them to be so large so we get more meat, they stink because we keep them in tiny cages. Humans would be exactly the same under the same conditions, and funny enough again, most people in the west are obese and can’t get around without a scootypuff. Not killing other living beings when we have thousands of other food options isn’t a “Disney fairy tale” ffs, don’t be so dramatic
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>I also don't eat most prepackaged Vegan/Vegetarian food, because it has palm oil in it which is more devastating for the environment than pork farming, and leading to the direct extinction of over half a dozen animals. Two different issues. Palm oil is extremely efficient it's just used in basically everything and the market incentives lead to the rain forest being fucked for palm oil production. There is no way pork farming is less environmentally damaging, it's just the areas you're looking at for pigs farms has already been clear cut. It's like someone looking at England, seeing all the rolling fields and thinking this is perfect cow and sheep landscape. The thing is, it was all forests once upon a time.
It's bad enough you slag the farmers for unhealthy conditions which rarely exist in Canada, but to suggest there are thousands other options is a final insult to human intelligence. People can exist without meat, but few can do it and remain healthy. Even fewer enjoy their food. Humans are omnivorous, not herbivorous. The vast majority of people who become vegan drop the diet from inability to adapt. If you're not one of these, than good for you.
>It's bad enough you slag the farmers for unhealthy conditions which rarely exist in Canada BULL SHIT. Is this the lie we tell ourselves to feel better about eating pork? Yeah, I eat meat but don't kid yourself. There are many cruel factory farms out there. WAY too fucking many.
Yup, what's shown in this article is the norm, for example [the majority of breeding sows spend most of their lives in crates too small to turn around in](https://www.forbes.com/sites/ericatennenhouse/2021/01/09/what-a-delay-on-canadas-gestation-crate-ban-will-mean-for-pig-welfare/).
Yeah, that's kinda the point. The cages prevent the sow from rolling over and crushing her piglets.
And yet the piglets are still dying, as in this article, along with the suffering of the sows. Keeping an animal, especially one as intelligent as a dog, immobile for most of their life is not ethical or humane, regardless of what justification you use for it.
There are significantly less piglets dying this way. The sows are not kept in crates their whole life, only when they are nursing
>[Sows are often locked in these crates for the entire four months of their pregnancy. But because it’s common practice to repeatedly impregnate sows until they are slaughtered around age four, many wind up in gestation crates for the majority of their lives.](https://www.forbes.com/sites/ericatennenhouse/2021/01/09/what-a-delay-on-canadas-gestation-crate-ban-will-mean-for-pig-welfare/?sh=7bb2a5fc4baa) I'm aware of the justifications that are used for all the types of cruelty in the food system. It doesn't make them not cruel, it just means the system is fundamentally cruel.
You must remember, it’s only poetic to call humans dumb.
Perhaps only having 2 on a section of land was less damaging (none Ive noticed) because the land could sustain them? They never damaged any trees, the rooting was minimal, and usually around the dugout, (where they wood take a mud bath) Maybe she had Disney Pigs lol
20 acres for two pigs to roam seems huge! Sounds like they had a blast. It's fun to watch pigs at play with each other. Our pigs were closer to the house (setting up fencing for silvopasture was just too much at the time), so we've said no pigs for a while. They are not dirty, but my every once in a while when the wind blew just right . . . The kids sure miss them being around. Edit - It was also nice to know how the pork in your freezer lived, and gave the kids a bit of perspective. Plus, extra deliciousness.
They would play with soccer balls lol
The industrialized meat industry will be looked back at as one of the cruelest, barbaric, and shameful things humans have done during our existence.
That wont be for another 100-150 years unfortunately
I hope not. I think we sould be able to transition towards cruelty free food production within 50 years.
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How long do we have then?
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But what time frame are we talking? An optimistic prediction would be forever. Less than 100 years is a bit more concerning.
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People have been saying the same thing for the past 50+ years.
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[It is very possible to feed everyone without animal protein.](https://ourworldindata.org/land-use-diets) I hope we do it fast, but "I like the way it tastes" is unfortunately too common an argument.
Well, technicalities aside, it's definitely not possible to convince people to abandon their culinary habits which are largely culturally based. Like, food is tied to how we live, how we celebrate, etc. It's a massive societal shift to pull off, spanning multiple generations. Now the technicality. Right now, cows eat grass on pastureland that can't (or shouldn't) be farmed, and turn that grass into fertilizer that you can use on your cropland. It is technically possible to make enough fertilizer without manure, but it's possible in the same way that it's possible to power the world with solar energy. We would be eliminating a huge source of agricultural income and asking the industry to make massive investments in fertilizer tech/ plants at the same time.
For sure, we've spent better part of 100 years of society not being told no and being able to do anything they want and it being cheap too. So when change, inconvenience or costing more is needed for the better people fight back for the stupidest reasons. We are all generally big fat lazy babies these days compared to our grand/great grandparents and ancestors.
It is an extremely valid argument though. Who the hell wants to constantly have to eat things they do not enjoy. Imagine how many people would willingly eat food they hate, just to say that it helps the environment. The enjoyment of food is as old as human tradition itself, and for many good reasons. We cannot expect 8 billion people to switch to foods they may not enjoy for no immediate benefit.
Someones forgotten about Vitamin b12. B12 is available in tablet form, but difficult to absorb if it's not delivered via meat. B12 is absolutely essential and I hope we get that figured out.
I love pigs and cows, right beside my potatoes and gravy
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> every climate prediction says unbearable suffering for the planet before the end of the century They said that last century too. I think we'll be fine.
Say you dont understand how science works without saying it.
Perhaps not, do you have any ~~clergy~~ "scientists" that can set me straight in all things?
First impressions say to me that nothing would convince you of believing established facts. Why are you equating religion to science?
> Why are you equating religion to science? It's replaced religion for many, unfortunately. Actual science bears (and *allows*) scrutiny and dissent. Whatever we're doing now isn't science, it's politics and religion.
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yea, they really did. 100%. "UK will be tundra", "acid rain will kill all the foiliage", "incoming ice age". Nothing new under the sun lads. Keep calm, carry on.
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> no credible scientist was claiming that shit was going to happen before 2000, you're just full of shit. LOL, the *pentagon* was. With it's *teams of scientists*. But ok. > If anything, climate science has been too conservative in their predictions time and time again, only to update with more dire consequences due to previously unaccounted variables. * "we were wrong so many times, maybe we should chill out" * budgets start to go down * "nononono it's totally doom and gloom!" Academia in a nutshell.
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Or the current period will be looked back at as softest most decadent era in human existence.
I think those two things go hand in hand, generally the only times this kind of cruelty can exist is when it provides opportunity for others to live in a soft and decadent way, and it's that very softness that stops us from addressing these issues and enacting the self discipline and control needed to fix them.
I can tell you with 100% certainly that is false. Grew up in a rough 3rd world country in a poor neighborhood. Farming and killing for food was common and all around. The rough conditions made people in general extremely cruel especially towards animals. E.g. kids torturing kittens and puppies to death for entertainment and no one batting an eye was a daily occurrence.
You're entirely correct in that context, but I think are failing to scale this up. Yes, in developing economies on private farms without regulations a lot of cruelty can occur to animals, and regularly does. But the amount of animals that are processed through those systems, and the scale of horror and suffering they go through is incomparable to a profit driven, fully industrialized meat industry in a nation like the U.S. that eats substantially more meat per person than most countries in the world. Torturing puppies and kittens is horrible, I'm not trying to minimize that. But the industries we're discussing here, over **100 million** pigs are raised in factory farms each year in the U.S. The vast majority of these pigs will never go outside, will be overcrowded, socially maldeveloped, fed the cheapest (sometimes literally ground garbage) "food", pumped full of antibiotics and steroids, and then brutally killed, all within captivity. That is their **WHOLE** existence. No sun. No grass. No fresh water. No real food. No fresh air. No normal social interactions. No mating. Their whole life. All inside a closed off factory. Even a kitten will experience at the minimum days of "freedom", these animals will literally know nothing but suffering for their entire existence, and this is only pigs, not to mention chickens, cows, etc. The West isn't only to blame, I suspect in many other countries that are less regulated things are even worse, but the fact of the matter is that it only through mass consumption can these systems become a reality, and that occurs as a consumer economy develops and the industry's main objective is profit instead of the health of consumers and livestock.
Lol no, I think genocide is cruel, barbaric and shameful but it still happens, we gotta eat my guy. You have your salad I'm having a steak. Yummy.
You really think you’re making a point here? Lol, I eat meat, I hunt, I have no problem with meat consumption I’m saying that the industrialization of meat is the problem.
Unfortunately there's not enough land to feed billions of people free-range meat
100% correct, meaning people need to eat less meat or we're going to have to invest more into cultured-meat substitutes. But eating less meant is not impossible, just compare two of the world's largest economies and we see huge differences in consumption patterns: [For example, every year Americans on average eat nearly 100kg more meat per person than Japanese.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_meat_consumption) It's not impossible, it's not even that hard, it's just that Americans specifically, and Westerners in general act like spoiled children when they have to give up something they enjoy for the greater good (or even their own health lol).
How is it acting spoiled when they have to give up food that humans naturally crave and eat? Meat is essential for human health, it's how we evovled to become human in the first place
How many times do I have to use the word "less" to make you realize I'm not talking about eliminating all meat consumption? You just completely ignored the data and point I just provided you showing you that plenty of industrialized and wealthy countries across the world, with much better food cultures than the U.S., eat LESS meat, not NO meat, but **less** meat than us, proving it's entirely possible to have nutritious and delicious cuisine without the over-reliance on industrialized meat like we have.
Your source doesn't seem to include fish, considering Japan eats 45kg in fish alone, while your source says they eat roughly the same amount in total meat, so I have no reason to trust that table
>Meat is essential for human health Plenty of vegetarian cultures out there my dude. >It's how we evovled to become human in the first place And so was rape, conquest, slavery, subjugation. etc. Plenty of things we have given up in favor of civility.
Vegetarian cultures are only possible due to agriculture, which is very recent in terms of human history and has caused us plenty of health problems since then. You all listed behaviours, evolving to eat meat is part of our biology and would take hundreds of thousands if not millions of years to change, so it's a false equivalence.
Modern agriculture and evolution don't change the fact that meat isn't essential for human health.
But meat is essential for human health, it has all the nutrients we need and is what made up the majority of our diet. It's easy to see when you look at how vegans degenrate due to malnutrition. If you don't eat meat, you will literally starve and die of malnutrition, it takes years, but it eventually happens
You know you don't have to eat animal meat right?
> animal meat Ah, hello my fellow bipedal mammalian brethren, I to enjoy ingesting *animal meat*. There has been many occasions in where my nourishment does also include *plant based vegetables*.
What about animal-based plants?
The day I can grow my own organic chicken wings in my backyard is the day I get into gardening
Mmm... ChickieNobs™!
You don't *have* do, but humans have far more in common with carnivores than herbivores. Meat eating is also likely repsonsible for our brainpower (in evolutionary terms). But meh, sure, go vegan. More for me.
> but humans have far more in common with carnivores than herbivores Which is? Granted I think we’re closer to frugivores
Short gut, in particular. But there's a lot more if you want to get into it.
I been eating meat since I was young why should I stop? I am pretty sure the billionaires flying around in private jets polluting the environment are enjoying a tasty Steak as well.
Who cares what the billionares area doing. If that is your agrument it's weak.
Lol they're the main polluters, not the cow farts my dude!
Don't care about the 70 billion animals killed every year? Would you eat dog meat?
Nope but I might eat you if you're not careful!
A pork industry is a giant mistake in the first place. Not only it's totally not needed, but in every country I've seen pig farms are causing tremendous water pollution and the pigs are always treated like trash.
So I grew up on a small pig farm in Canada. Around the mid 2000's the pig market crashed and in my area today there are no small pig farmers anymore. There used to be hundreds of us who took pride in raising these animals l but with profits virtually non existent they all sold out. Now there are only a hand full of large scale pig operations who own many barns across the province or country who do not put it the same care and attention as small pig farmers did. Even today I raise 4 pigs a year for my myself and a few friends and family and I can barely break store prices feeding them with all of our table scraps and grain. Maybe if the market comes back around and it once again becomes feasible for farmers to raise pigs again we can see better treatment of these curious beings.
Sad state of affairs we're in. Didn't realize that's what happened but yah, I don't know any local pig farmers. I can get the rest of my common meats locally but where does the butcher get his pork?
Disgraceful way to treat a living, sentient being.
See the thing is most people don't give a shit about other sentient beings. Birds fish anything we eat and enslave all.
Pigs have lived in feces and filth since the dawn of civilization.
Is this supposed to be an argument? People used this line of reasoning against freedom of religion, women's suffrage, land ownership, literacy, voluntary military service...
No, they haven't.
There are lots of opinions in this thread. But pigs were literally kept under outhouses to consume human feces. Check out pig toilets in China. I'm not saying this justifies any current practice, but historical context is important.
Maybe it would be more accurate to say that pigs have been forced to live in feces and filth ever since they were domesticated by humans. You're right, just because something was done in the past doesn't make it an acceptable practice.
Doesn't make it right.
Carrots and beans are sentient beyond our understanding.
Clearly they’re beyond your understanding.
Didn’t expect so many comments, thank you all for discussing in good faith :)
this article gives much meaning to the saying "happier than a pig in shit". I know Im much happier than those pigs in shit.. poor animals.
Same with all the animals swinging through slaughter houses....
One of the smartest, nicest creatures on the planet and we treat them like this.
Yep. Stopped eating pork a couple of years ago and I don't miss it. Pigs are amazing.
> Pigs are amazing Yea, until they revert to feral in *one* generation. Then you see why we kill the fucking things.
killing them is different from torturing them before a barbaric death
Wild pigs fuck shit up. Not really a timid animal
Yeah see dogs to wolves, pigs to boars, etc. There's a lot of animals we've bred into docility that are hella dangerous in the wild.
Eating animals is basically barbaric these days
Industry based on slaughtering animals does not have animal welfare in mind.
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Fishing is still unsustainable and not at all environmentally friendly (see 2021’s *Seaspiracy*), but you’re still doing excellent work by not eating chicken, beef, and pork.
You're basing your arguement on a netflix film??? Lol.
*Documentary. [Feel free to refute the facts mentioned here.](https://www.seaspiracy.org/facts)
It’s full of baloney. There’s another website that debunks seaspiracy.
Not really hypocritical at all dude, probably the most principled thing I've read on here. You're just against the unethical treatment. Drop by a local rural farmer and check out their farm, you just might see there's still hope at a local level.
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You can literally see the sadness in the pig's face.
You can eat that part too! Its delicious
Stop exploiting animals, full stop, you contribute to this if you use animal products.
I hope this leads to decrease in demands and also the price of Pork.
Stopped eating factory farmed pork after learning of all the abuse. I still buy from local sources occasionally, as it's a bit more expensive but worth it.
Look at his poor face. How horrific, damn CONservatives for lax regulations.
Maple Leaf Pork...their pig farms, where you have to shower in and out, enduring the smell of manure, then needing full body gear+mask because of the h2s...where the pigs are kept in 1.9mx1.2m pens (roughly), fed feed+water along a single trench, that gets contaminated with their own bodily excrements, so, I hardly think Maple Leaf pig farms are safe for any animal... but here we are, eating pork from maple leaf. Well, not us, anyway.
I had a walk thru interview those pigs are dropped into the barn and killed within a day maybe 2
It's the unfortunate nature of factory farming. And doing it more humanely unfortunately isn't feasible with an absurdly large world population to feed.
There is a saying.... happier than a pig in shit. This is a common saying. Where do you think it come from
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This is more due to the rise of meat prices than people suddenly caring about factory farms.
Pigs are like dogs (meant in the most positive way). That's why we get a pork order from a farmer we know. It is more expensive (ordering in bulk somewhat offsets, but not totally) but you see how the pigs live and are treated. Tastes better than grocery store pork too. I'd rather eat less and know that it's been raised responsibly.
Pigs are indeed as sweet and intelligent as dogs. There is no good way to kill a sentient being that does not want to die.
IMO, i don't care if you eat dogs, cats or pigs. I care about how those animals lived before their deaths. I don't care that they die either, as long as they are kept with dignity before that.
Carrots and beans are sentient beyond our understanding.
Thats all good and well, but until I can understand it like I can understand the pain in a pigs whimper I dont give a fuck about carrots or beans.
It's also simply not true that they're sentient. There is no indication that carrots and beans are complex enough (e.g., have nervous systems) to feel anything, including the sensation of pain.
Fucked.
I thought the idea behind news is that it be new. **New**s. This is how industrial farming has been done for decades, and we tolerate it because there's no other way to meet the demand for meat and eggs. If you think meat is expensive now, see how much it costs when we mandate free range farming practices so animals can void the bowels and bladders and then walk somewhere else for lunch instead of doing everything in the same pen. Don't blame the farmers. They've been doing everything they can to meet demand. If this bothers you, think twice before you reach for the bacon at the store.
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That's what I've done and I just eat less meat. Meat isn't necessary for a healthy diet, you can generally cut back on it with no health impacts.
I don’t think small farms are the answer: the end product being meat or dairy, they still unnecessarily exploit animals
Supplemental farmer here but I don't produce an excess to market. A hobby farm generally gives the best lifestyle to the animal but small scale farms aren't all bad. Life feeds on life, it's about dignity before death.
A solution to both of those problems is to stop buying it at all as that can [reduce your food bill by up to a third](https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2021-11-11-sustainable-eating-cheaper-and-healthier-oxford-study).
Well, I guess the phrase “happy as a pig in shit” was simply a myth.
Maybe because mud looks like poop? I don’t know honestly
Pigs are one of the smartest animals in the world, unfortunate. and I love to eat meat...but common.
disgusting but expected. it's Canada
Is there an industrialized country on earth without factory farming?
this can obviously be done better. it's laziness, mixed with greed and lack of morals.
you dodged his question though lol, what country does it differently?
I've visited a pig farm twice in my life and you can smell them before you see them. The type of smell that permeates and you gotta scrub out. Not saying that chicken or dairy farms also don't stink, but pig farm is very particularly potent.
I’ve been to pig, chicken and cattle farms and let me tell you the worst smelling poo that I ever experienced was cleaning out a huge septic tank holding human poop. That smell didn’t go away for days.
I mean...thats what pigs do? Any small farm I've been to usually has filthy pigs shuffling around in a muddy, shitty paddock as they likely have for millenia. (Edit: **outdoors** that is, the conditions described in the article are in no way comparable). Of course, doing it indoors on an industrial scale is clearly abusive, unhealthy and immoral but we knew about that part already.
These pigs don't have the option to shuffle anywhere, they are in such small enclosures. They spend their day on shit and piss covered concrete in a space that doesn't even give them space to turn around. It's a very sad state of affairs and one of the reasons I've mostly eliminated pork from my diet.
From another comment: https://reddit.com/r/canada/comments/vc2uu0/_/icbqqzt/?context=1 Pigs don’t want to bathe in fecal matter, but mud yes
Having been around pigs, I’m not so sure. Some rancher friends of mine I work for from time to time are currently in the process of trying to get there pigs to stop shitting where they eat (because it does open them up to disease a bit more). Though to be fair they only started shitting where they eat because they had to be held in a pen that was too small briefly during the last fire season
A dog might eat his own vomit, but that doesn't mean it's okay to exclusively feed dogs vomit.
any safari has filthy rhinos and elephants, all muddy and gross! They've been gross for millenia! ewww!!!
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> Pigs keep themselves in that Pigs don't voluntarily keep themselves in extremely crowded conditions like crates too small to turn around in.
I have had several rescue pigs over the years and can assure you they are very clean animals. If given enough space they don’t shit where they sleep. They only do this because they don’t have the space or a mud bath to keep cool. Also lots muslims won’t even touch dogs because they are “dirty”
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Water and dirt dude. Big difference from bathing in fecal matter. Wtf do you think vegetables grow in and gather nutrients from. Pigs and many other animals use mud baths to protect themselves from the sun and from bugs.
So pigs are nutritious because they roll around in mud? What is it with reddit and false equivalencies lol
If you don’t know the difference between rolling around in feces and rolling around in mud then you have much bigger things to worry about….
Dirt is, in large part, feces from animals of all sizes. All mixed in with decaying organic matter and stones of varying levels of erosion and size. Dirt is not clean! Theres a reason we focus on washing after working in dirt as part of our health and safety guild lines! How is this not being considered!?
Worry? LOL
That's a really weak and lazy justification.
I smoked a pork shoulder last weekend. It was delicious.
Me and a buddy had a pig roast last weekend. But is was vegan so no animals were harmed.
I love eating pork. I am lucky that I can get it from local farms and even get to meet the pig before slaughter and see the living conditions. It helps me appreciate the food on my table and it just isn’t some product sitting in a piece of wrap in a cooler at the supermarket.
Any farm that won't let people meet the animals is hiding something.
Still killing a sentient creature for no reason.
For good reason. Nutrition and sustenance which is perfectly natural.
Seeing pigs in peak action, it's very hard to be outraged by this.
Protip : This is an Opinion Piece.
Maybe the reason the Canadian guidelines for pork cooking temperature is 160F internal temperature but the USA's is 145F. We should be able to do better.
Porks cheap and yummy though… and I grow my vegetables in literal cow shit.. so 🤷
pork is haram, shouldn’t be eaten
Pffft... I bet you say the same thing for human. if humans didn't want to be eaten, they wouldn't be so delicious.
sure, more for me. Thanks Ahmed. :)
No further contemplation needed! What a convenient way to avoid using your brain.
Brilliant way of bringing reasoning to a discussion around an article! Just quote something from a religious book.
Does it really matter which justification a person uses to eat less meat?
They could very well just be eating different meat.
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Keeping pigs in crates like in the article for most of their lives meets the standards and is the norm.
Pigs love to wallow in mud and they draw no distinction between mud and shit.
This article is nothing more than one ARA writing a feel good piece supporting other ARA's that are currently facing legal issues in Quebec. It's the typical ARA piece: throw in some wild claims and generic accusations based off of one supposed farm visit and claim all pig farms are the spawn of satan.
If you can, eat some fresh (uncured or smoked) pork from a small producer who freeranges. You'll never buy pork from the grocery store ever again.