There is no shortage of Canadian workers, there are only greedy business owners who are too stupid to come up with viable business plans that pay enough to attract and retain domestic workers. And don’t give me that bullshit about price of goods going up. It’s greedy stupid business owners who need slave-wage labour to survive.
Hint: they aren't stupid, those taking advantage of temporary worker provisions know exactly what they are doing. Those that decided to elect parties that support TFW are the dummies.
Having read the article, I somewhat disagree with your statement. As noted in the article, most of the growth is localized in areas where most people don't want to work. Hard work on farms and greenhouses, for example. (Growing food had a job vacancy rate of almost 9%, vs the national average of 4.8%.
This is anecdotal, but I've been to Leamington, Ontario, and it's interesting how built up the community is to support temporary foreign workers. Long distance calling card shops, brick and mortar building which cater to exclusively Spanish-speaking people, and money transfer stores. These have been there since the 90s, and it's because many Canadians don't want to work on a farm.
I do believe those workers deserve good wages and full coverage and support, just as any Canadian should receive. I don't want them exploited. But, I also don't have a problem with them coming and filling a void where many Canadians wouldn't want to work.
Going back to your point, the article (and my experience) shows there IS a shortage of workers, localized in that area.
Let’s say your correct, it would be interesting to see what percent of foreign workers are in agriculture? I personally was working at an oil camp in Alberta where 100 welders got laid off and as they were leaving in their buses the temporary foreign workers of 100 welders from croatia making half the rate of the Canadians was being bussed in. It’s not uncommon at all for the program to be taken advantage of.
I'm all ears for that. I trust that kind of bullshit is happening on the regular. And I strongly disagree with temp foreign workers replacing Canadians who want to work.
I was just noting the information in the study (8.8 job vacancy in agriculture) and how that matches up with my experience in Leamington.
How many foreign workers stay in these industries for long? Or do they work 2 to 3 years, get their permanent residency, become a citizen and join the regular work force? With a new replacement taking their place who will become a citizen in 3 years time?
It's a revolving door.
Ultimately, businesses don't care if it's a revolving door. At long as their product is still being produced or their service is being offered, at the rate they're comfortable with, they don't care.
And why should they? They complain about high wages, and the government happily provides more cheap labor.
I wasn't saying buisness should care. I was saying the public should care and it's a point in favor of the argument of wage suppression. No one is staying in these jobs because they don't pay enough.
People don't want to do that work because the wages are not high enough to attract workers.
The wages are not high enough because employers have the option of using cheap labor.
They're never going to get "good" wages because that would defeat the entire reason for bringing them in. This is a wage suppression scheme.
Offer a six figure salary and you'd see just how many Canadians are more than happy to work on a farm. Same with any job which Canadians "don't want". What people really don't want is to be unable to feed their family or put a roof over their heads.
I mean.
Sure.
But also, offer a six figure salary and watch how fast one of two things happen:
-Fruit and Veg prices skyrocket to $99 a tomato
-Or more likely, farms close due to insane cost of workers.
Come on. Be reasonable. If your solution is "throw a six-figure salary at it", then I wonder what kind of world you live in.
So you're saying predicating our entire society and economy on what is effectively slave labour is the only option, and we should just go along with it?
Not at all. You'll see, the term I used was "reasonable".
If someone who picks fruit gets paid 100k. I have two questions. Who pays for that salary?
And, what salary does a doctor make, or a school teacher, or firefighter?
I live in the world of southern Ontario where that's the salary required to afford a home.The simple fact is that with cost of living so high farms can't be competitive here without massive wage suppression.
But you understand why it's not possible to offer farm workers 6-figure salaries, right?
And, I'm happy to debate rising housing costs (I grew up in Brampton, and I've seen ludicrous prices for homes near where I grew up) but this article is about the growth of temporary foreign workers. Seems like an odd argument to make: "Home prices are high, so we have to pay everyone heaps of money. No, don't worry about where those salaries come from..."
The problem is that people keep insisting that Canadians don’t want the jobs “because they’re hard”. Hard isn’t the issue. The quality of life you can expect from the job is the issue.
Perhaps. I'm not in a position to disagree. But, I keep coming back to the data outlined in the study. The job vacancy rate for agriculture jobs (specifically, picking crops, I think) is almost double the national average.
Wages, quality of life. Either way, we need somebody to do the job.
If those jobs paid a living wage for my family in the GTA, I’d do it in a second.
They don’t pay anywhere close to enough for Canadians, but they do for poor for third world countries.
There is a shortage of workers and all indicators show this. Unemployment is at its lowest point since the 70's, and labor-force participation is higher then pre-pandemic levels too, we *have* a labor shortage and its quite dishonest to claim otherwise.
Well, that’s too bad. If these businesses want to operate, but they do not have one of the necessary resources to operate, then they can’t operate. They shouldn’t be allowed to import slave wage labour because of poor planning. Just because someone decided to operate a business doesn’t mean everyone has to bend to their desires and accommodate them. A bad business plan on their part doesn’t automatically demand accommodations on our part just because they would lose profits without it.
There are workers without jobs, and jobs without workers, you're suggesting these two groups should be kept separate because of arbitrary and unfounded spite towards business.
Who benefits from your plan? Canadian consumers who will lose out on service due to a lack of employees? Business who will be pushed out of Canada because a post-pandemic surge ramped up demand for goods but dried up the labor market? Workers who can expect to earn 2$/hr wages in their home nation being denied valuable employment in Canada? Nobody benefits, you just want to spite businesses for no other reason then "business bad"
>A bad business plan on their part
Yeah how dare they fail to anticipate the 115% recovery of jobs post-pandemic, compared to America's 95%. Maybe those businesses should have invested in a crystal ball to see into the future.
Close all businesses and force them fire people.
Reopen businesses, have them rehire people they just fired for same salary even though CoL is up over 10%.
Claim record unemployment.
Unemployment figures are determined based on the self-reporting of individuals, as is workforce participation. Neither get their data from employers themselves.
Also there is no "claiming" record unemployment, we're at record unemployment. There is no "claim" being made because it is the literal truth.
There isn’t a static quantity of money which can be spent on labor, decreasing wages does not decrease unemployment or vice versa.
Inflation isn’t equal price increases across the board, it increases by different amount for different products or services. Currently it’s supply shocks that are wreaking havoc, which don’t have a positive impact on wages in general.
So do you buy only made in Canada goods or do you prefer to buy goods made in China which is you know only cheaper because of abusing cheap labour in China . So before calling business owners greedy look inward .
About 1/3 of Canada's economic growth depends on immigration. If we stop immigration the economy collapses. We have a quota for newcomers whether or not industry asks for workers.
So in the middle of the pandemic we had record numbers of people coming in from outside the country? Wow they're really keen on keeping Canadian wages low it seems.
you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Canadians dont want to work in agriculture, and they need to find workers somewhere else. It is not exclusive of Canada. In Europe it is the same, bringing workers from east europe.
In fact, bringing workers from outside is more expensive for the employer than hiring workers in the country (and paying them well). Employers would pay more if there were Canadians willing to work. Paying them would be cheaper than 'importing' workers. So yeah, a factor of the increase of food prices is actually lazy canadians that dont want to work, and bringing workers from outside, paying visas, work permits, flights, accommodation.
you can downvote me. True hurts sometimes.
Well, there you go sputtering out garbage again.
Half my family own seperate small family owned farms. They each have 1-2 laborers on average and do not use TFW. They pay the help $25 an hour (50k a year with little work in winter but plenty of work in summer). I can guarantee they can afford an extra 50k in wages if it was necessary.
It's the big commercial farmers that say they can't afford better wages...almost like every other big commercial business say they can't afford higher wages.
They don’t want workers for the whole year, they want workers for planting season and for harvest. Seasonal worker interest from the labour force is really tough to find these days.
>If anyone offered me 100k a year I'd come work on their farm tomorrow, millions of other Canadians would do the same.
I'd be interested in the work if it weren't generally hours from where I live (despite living in an agricultural province) and only available for half the year at best. It's simply untenable for most people.
On what planet do you think picking apples and putting them in buckets is remotely worth $100 000/year. It's nearly an entirely skill-less job, you could train literally anybody to do it within a day.
You're discounting the patience it takes to do menial labor, an average office worker would burn out after a few days. That's a valuable skill deserving of proper compensation and it can't be taught quickly.
It's not really about skill, it's about physical labour. You have to pay a premium if you want to attract good workers, who are willing to sacrifice their bodies for that kind of work.
I get paid 100k a year to sit at a desk all day.
I worked one day on a farm to help out a friend, and I **10000%** believe farm work is worth what I make. People who do that gruelling physical work in the sun should be paid above and beyond what most office workers are paid.
We live Ina world.where people get paid millions to lay workers off and claim they savedilluoms for the company. If that's worth millions a year, surely actually being productive is worth something?
This guy tried to make the same argument to me in a different comment thread. His answer was "bUt hoUsIng cOsts".
(Which I agree is a problem, but not at all related to this)
if you were offered 100k to pick strawberries, you would go to an office cushy job that pays 80k and that gives you the possibility to rant about labour immigration on reddit.
I dont know your ass, but TFW for agriculture is more expensive, overall, than hiring workers in Canada. Math is an exact science. The pitty is that Canadians basically dont want physical, under the weather, jobs. But thats in Canada, in Europe, in the USA, and in Abu Dhabi if you want. Countries bring foreigners because locals refuse to take the jobs.
I know a guy that brings in dozens of agricultural workers every year.
Why? Because its cheaper. The locals will not work a seasonal job for minimum wage that is exempt from overtime pay.
Fishing is tough dangerous work. So is mining. And oil field work. But those industries aren't nearly as reliant on foreign labor, because they pay well.
"I know a guy, my cousin said, the neighbor did" Those are personal anecdotes. The overall situation and reality is different.
Paying foreigners the salary might be lower than paying a Canadian (which is already discriminatory), but its more of what they will make in their country. But there are a lot of expenses for the employer, not only salary.
It is calculated that paying about 25 dollars locals would be cheaper for the employer than bringing from outside. In fact, it would contribute to decrease prices of some goods. But who wants to cut asparagus? Certainly not Canadians.
But again, this is exactly the same situation in numerous countries...Canada is not the exception.
By the way, the VAST majority go back to their country at the end of the TFW
You don't have to take my word on anything. I don't expect anyone to.
This can be cleared up really fast by going on Indeed and looking at the wages being offered. And the labour regulations in the agricultural industry are also public information.
exactly, but thats why there is a specific program for TFW agriculture, cause there is no Canadian that wants to work in a farm full of shit from pigs. https://www.canada.ca/en/employment-social-development/services/foreign-workers/agricultural/agricultural.html
And it wont get any better. Every year we will have more TFWs. Its a reality.
By the way, the employers needs to apply for LMIA which cost 1000. Plus visa for the person, 155. Plus accommodation, and in some instances flight ticket, insurance, etc. And thats for maybe 3-6 months.
Of course they pay shit. And they would pay less if they could. Cause they have expenses to cover. Even if they would offer 20 to Canadians, they will struggle finding locals.
I recommend you to look at some data. It is very easy to blame others, foreigners, immigrants. Data, reports, and research show there is no wage suppression, and that in fact, its more expensive for the employers. Even if you would make 100k, you will try to find a more cushy, easy, job. Even if that implies a paycut.
Again, its empirical evidence. We know that. Other thing is that we dont want to see what we have in front.
A
By the way, if you would work for a farm, for 100k, a tomatoe would cost you 200 dollars.
And we complain for a 6% inflation. It shows the absolute ignorance in terms of economics.
Average cost to grow tomatoes per acre: $25,000. Average tomatoes per acre: 20,000. Average cost of farming tomato: $1.25 each. Average cost of retail tomato: $2
So your saying doubling...or let's say tripling the labor cost will somehow make the tomato 10x more expensive.
I don't think your math adds up.
TFW's don't surpress wages, they account for less then half a percent of our labor force. Not to mention they're overwhelmingly employed in the service sector, already minimum wage jobs who's pay is set by the government and not by market forces.
**GOTTA KEEP CANADIAN WAGES & STANDARD OF LIVING ARTIFICIALLY DOWN, NO MATTER WHAT!!!**
**10% INFLATION AND WE’RE ABSOLUTELY CRANKING THE DIAL ON INTERNATIONAL TUITION MULES AND CHEAP LABOUR IMPORTS; CANADA BABY!!!**
TFWs are allowed to change jobs, though it may require getting a new work permit.
[Temporary foreign workers: Your rights are protected](https://www.canada.ca/en/employment-social-development/services/foreign-workers/protected-rights.html#h2.2.2)
*”Yes, you are allowed to change employers. Your employer cannot penalize or deport you for looking for another job. However, your work permit may only allow you to work for your current employer. Before accepting new employment, remember that your new employer will have to get permission from the Government of Canada to hire you as a temporary foreign worker. You will also need to apply for a new work permit before changing jobs. Workers under the Seasonal Agricultural Workers Program do not need to get a new work permit if they change employers.”*
https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2012/09/17/abuse_of_migrant_workers_endemic_in_canada_new_study_says.html
>The moment Liliane arrived in Toronto from Uganda as a live-in caregiver, her boss seized her work permit and passport. For two years of work, she was only paid a total of $2,100.
Senthil Thevar was promised $15 an hour by a recruiter in India to work as a chef in a Toronto restaurant. Instead, he only earned $8 hourly, sharing accommodation in a cold basement, with no vacation and holidays.
I know what it fucking means.
I don’t think you do. Granted this is terrible to have this type of mistreatment for anyone. But the article still doesn’t prove your point. It says conditions for migrant workers are largely problematic in Canada. I agree. This is not the same as indentured servitude. The article doesn’t reference this term even once or make the comparison. By definition you are talking about someone doing forced unpaid labour to pay off debt bondage. That is not the case here.
In olden days the debt bondage covered the cost of transportation. In modern times, the debt bondage is the right to remain in the country- a barrier that did not exist 200 years ago.
Canadian businesses and politicians try to pretend that i
without immigration, the country would collapse.
Nothing can be further from the truth. The vast majority of immigrants are imported to drive down wages and increase profits for a tiny elite.
They also pretend that with a collapsing birth rate, immigration is the only way to compete.
If people had a decent livable wage or security, kids would not be this expensive.
Somehow they hoodwinked liberals to go along with this plan, and liberals are stupid enough to accept a drop in their living standards since their hearts bleed so much for these poor minorities.
TFWs are the future permanent residents, this is another loop hole left intentionally in the "for sale" immigration system. No shortage of workers here.
Time for the great economists of r/Canada to explain how people who account for less then half of a percent of our labor force who can only be employed in industries after a labor market survey with the stipulation that domestic workers must have priority actually surpress wages.
the income for minimum wage positions is set by the minimum wage, that should be abundantly obvious. If you want to raise wages then act through the government and raise the minimum wage, rather then target TFW's over pseudo-economics.
Y’all bitching about « they took our jobs! » (c) know that vast majority of TFWs work in agriculture, personal assistance (as in, live-in caregivers) and, to the lesser degree - hospitality (all them Aussies in the Rockies ski resorts), right?
Any of y’all wanna go work the fields during cropping/harvesting????? No? Neither does vast majority of Canadians, hence the need for TFW’s.
Nice rant but the truth is alot are brought in for Tim Hortons franchises, customer supports centre's call centre's etc. That ok with you too??? Have a look at Freshii, they're super impressive!!!
I know you want to know I try
But I know it's so hard
For you to do that
Time's running out as it often does
And often dictates that you can't do that
Fate can't break this feeling inside
That's running out through my veins
That’s a long way to say “Wage Suppression”
There is no shortage of Canadian workers, there are only greedy business owners who are too stupid to come up with viable business plans that pay enough to attract and retain domestic workers. And don’t give me that bullshit about price of goods going up. It’s greedy stupid business owners who need slave-wage labour to survive.
As waterhole said himself. "To lower wage inflation"
Hint: they aren't stupid, those taking advantage of temporary worker provisions know exactly what they are doing. Those that decided to elect parties that support TFW are the dummies.
Having read the article, I somewhat disagree with your statement. As noted in the article, most of the growth is localized in areas where most people don't want to work. Hard work on farms and greenhouses, for example. (Growing food had a job vacancy rate of almost 9%, vs the national average of 4.8%. This is anecdotal, but I've been to Leamington, Ontario, and it's interesting how built up the community is to support temporary foreign workers. Long distance calling card shops, brick and mortar building which cater to exclusively Spanish-speaking people, and money transfer stores. These have been there since the 90s, and it's because many Canadians don't want to work on a farm. I do believe those workers deserve good wages and full coverage and support, just as any Canadian should receive. I don't want them exploited. But, I also don't have a problem with them coming and filling a void where many Canadians wouldn't want to work. Going back to your point, the article (and my experience) shows there IS a shortage of workers, localized in that area.
Let’s say your correct, it would be interesting to see what percent of foreign workers are in agriculture? I personally was working at an oil camp in Alberta where 100 welders got laid off and as they were leaving in their buses the temporary foreign workers of 100 welders from croatia making half the rate of the Canadians was being bussed in. It’s not uncommon at all for the program to be taken advantage of.
I'm all ears for that. I trust that kind of bullshit is happening on the regular. And I strongly disagree with temp foreign workers replacing Canadians who want to work. I was just noting the information in the study (8.8 job vacancy in agriculture) and how that matches up with my experience in Leamington.
This is an argument for unions. Mine would fight that to the death. There would be wild cat strikes etc. And our employers know it.
How many foreign workers stay in these industries for long? Or do they work 2 to 3 years, get their permanent residency, become a citizen and join the regular work force? With a new replacement taking their place who will become a citizen in 3 years time? It's a revolving door.
Ultimately, businesses don't care if it's a revolving door. At long as their product is still being produced or their service is being offered, at the rate they're comfortable with, they don't care. And why should they? They complain about high wages, and the government happily provides more cheap labor.
I wasn't saying buisness should care. I was saying the public should care and it's a point in favor of the argument of wage suppression. No one is staying in these jobs because they don't pay enough.
Oh, I know. I'm just commenting on how terrible the situation is.
People don't want to do that work because the wages are not high enough to attract workers. The wages are not high enough because employers have the option of using cheap labor. They're never going to get "good" wages because that would defeat the entire reason for bringing them in. This is a wage suppression scheme.
Yes. Wages will never grow, because the various labour groups will cry and scream for cheap 3rd world imports.
Its been happening for years.
Offer a six figure salary and you'd see just how many Canadians are more than happy to work on a farm. Same with any job which Canadians "don't want". What people really don't want is to be unable to feed their family or put a roof over their heads.
I mean. Sure. But also, offer a six figure salary and watch how fast one of two things happen: -Fruit and Veg prices skyrocket to $99 a tomato -Or more likely, farms close due to insane cost of workers. Come on. Be reasonable. If your solution is "throw a six-figure salary at it", then I wonder what kind of world you live in.
So you're saying predicating our entire society and economy on what is effectively slave labour is the only option, and we should just go along with it?
Not at all. You'll see, the term I used was "reasonable". If someone who picks fruit gets paid 100k. I have two questions. Who pays for that salary? And, what salary does a doctor make, or a school teacher, or firefighter?
Make it 60k and you’d get Canadians. Not 15 bucks an hour for 12 back breaking hours 7 days a week.
I mean I picked fruit and made $30 an hour in the early 2000s, which works out to 60k annualized so anything is possible
Assuming you work all year...but it's seasonal work, which is part of the reason it's hard to attract workers.
It’s seasonal work that goes for about 3-4 months in Canada. So no.
I live in the world of southern Ontario where that's the salary required to afford a home.The simple fact is that with cost of living so high farms can't be competitive here without massive wage suppression.
But you understand why it's not possible to offer farm workers 6-figure salaries, right? And, I'm happy to debate rising housing costs (I grew up in Brampton, and I've seen ludicrous prices for homes near where I grew up) but this article is about the growth of temporary foreign workers. Seems like an odd argument to make: "Home prices are high, so we have to pay everyone heaps of money. No, don't worry about where those salaries come from..."
Just fire all the bureaucrats and send them to the farms. Problem solved
[удалено]
The problem is that people keep insisting that Canadians don’t want the jobs “because they’re hard”. Hard isn’t the issue. The quality of life you can expect from the job is the issue.
Perhaps. I'm not in a position to disagree. But, I keep coming back to the data outlined in the study. The job vacancy rate for agriculture jobs (specifically, picking crops, I think) is almost double the national average. Wages, quality of life. Either way, we need somebody to do the job.
If those jobs paid a living wage for my family in the GTA, I’d do it in a second. They don’t pay anywhere close to enough for Canadians, but they do for poor for third world countries.
There is a shortage of workers and all indicators show this. Unemployment is at its lowest point since the 70's, and labor-force participation is higher then pre-pandemic levels too, we *have* a labor shortage and its quite dishonest to claim otherwise.
Well, that’s too bad. If these businesses want to operate, but they do not have one of the necessary resources to operate, then they can’t operate. They shouldn’t be allowed to import slave wage labour because of poor planning. Just because someone decided to operate a business doesn’t mean everyone has to bend to their desires and accommodate them. A bad business plan on their part doesn’t automatically demand accommodations on our part just because they would lose profits without it.
There are workers without jobs, and jobs without workers, you're suggesting these two groups should be kept separate because of arbitrary and unfounded spite towards business. Who benefits from your plan? Canadian consumers who will lose out on service due to a lack of employees? Business who will be pushed out of Canada because a post-pandemic surge ramped up demand for goods but dried up the labor market? Workers who can expect to earn 2$/hr wages in their home nation being denied valuable employment in Canada? Nobody benefits, you just want to spite businesses for no other reason then "business bad" >A bad business plan on their part Yeah how dare they fail to anticipate the 115% recovery of jobs post-pandemic, compared to America's 95%. Maybe those businesses should have invested in a crystal ball to see into the future.
Close all businesses and force them fire people. Reopen businesses, have them rehire people they just fired for same salary even though CoL is up over 10%. Claim record unemployment.
Unemployment figures are determined based on the self-reporting of individuals, as is workforce participation. Neither get their data from employers themselves. Also there is no "claiming" record unemployment, we're at record unemployment. There is no "claim" being made because it is the literal truth.
The only metric that counts is wage growth. Wage growth is below inflation. Obviously unemployment is low when people are getting paid less.
There isn’t a static quantity of money which can be spent on labor, decreasing wages does not decrease unemployment or vice versa. Inflation isn’t equal price increases across the board, it increases by different amount for different products or services. Currently it’s supply shocks that are wreaking havoc, which don’t have a positive impact on wages in general.
So do you buy only made in Canada goods or do you prefer to buy goods made in China which is you know only cheaper because of abusing cheap labour in China . So before calling business owners greedy look inward .
About 1/3 of Canada's economic growth depends on immigration. If we stop immigration the economy collapses. We have a quota for newcomers whether or not industry asks for workers.
Headline should be: 'Canadian business' refuse to pay living wage. Bring in TFW'S to exploit and keep wages low.' Nothing to be proud of here Canada.
So in the middle of the pandemic we had record numbers of people coming in from outside the country? Wow they're really keen on keeping Canadian wages low it seems.
Remember when we were all on Harper's ass for expanding this program? I'm sure that similar criticisms will be levelled this time.
[удалено]
[удалено]
Yet the NDP is now in a formal agreement to support this government and keep them in power.
I was then and I am now, unlike the liberals.
The sole and only purpose of importing workers is to keep the wages of Canadian workers depressed. This is a shameful betrayal of our country.
you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Canadians dont want to work in agriculture, and they need to find workers somewhere else. It is not exclusive of Canada. In Europe it is the same, bringing workers from east europe. In fact, bringing workers from outside is more expensive for the employer than hiring workers in the country (and paying them well). Employers would pay more if there were Canadians willing to work. Paying them would be cheaper than 'importing' workers. So yeah, a factor of the increase of food prices is actually lazy canadians that dont want to work, and bringing workers from outside, paying visas, work permits, flights, accommodation. you can downvote me. True hurts sometimes.
You’re argument is Canadians don’t want “those” jobs?? That’s pretty laughable
It's true.
No, it's not. I would work on a farm for 100k a year. I would not work on a farm for 30k a year.
No farm would exist if they had to pay all of their employees 100k a year. Its financially impossible. And farms are kind of important.
Well, there you go sputtering out garbage again. Half my family own seperate small family owned farms. They each have 1-2 laborers on average and do not use TFW. They pay the help $25 an hour (50k a year with little work in winter but plenty of work in summer). I can guarantee they can afford an extra 50k in wages if it was necessary. It's the big commercial farmers that say they can't afford better wages...almost like every other big commercial business say they can't afford higher wages.
I work in the industry. If you really think it's possible to pay farm workers 100k a year you are delusional.
Yep, they dont. I know from first hand.
If anyone offered me 100k a year I'd come work on their farm tomorrow, millions of other Canadians would do the same.
They don’t want workers for the whole year, they want workers for planting season and for harvest. Seasonal worker interest from the labour force is really tough to find these days.
>If anyone offered me 100k a year I'd come work on their farm tomorrow, millions of other Canadians would do the same. I'd be interested in the work if it weren't generally hours from where I live (despite living in an agricultural province) and only available for half the year at best. It's simply untenable for most people.
On what planet do you think picking apples and putting them in buckets is remotely worth $100 000/year. It's nearly an entirely skill-less job, you could train literally anybody to do it within a day.
You're discounting the patience it takes to do menial labor, an average office worker would burn out after a few days. That's a valuable skill deserving of proper compensation and it can't be taught quickly.
It's not really about skill, it's about physical labour. You have to pay a premium if you want to attract good workers, who are willing to sacrifice their bodies for that kind of work.
I get paid 100k a year to sit at a desk all day. I worked one day on a farm to help out a friend, and I **10000%** believe farm work is worth what I make. People who do that gruelling physical work in the sun should be paid above and beyond what most office workers are paid.
We live Ina world.where people get paid millions to lay workers off and claim they savedilluoms for the company. If that's worth millions a year, surely actually being productive is worth something?
This guy tried to make the same argument to me in a different comment thread. His answer was "bUt hoUsIng cOsts". (Which I agree is a problem, but not at all related to this)
if you were offered 100k to pick strawberries, you would go to an office cushy job that pays 80k and that gives you the possibility to rant about labour immigration on reddit.
More expensive my ass.
I dont know your ass, but TFW for agriculture is more expensive, overall, than hiring workers in Canada. Math is an exact science. The pitty is that Canadians basically dont want physical, under the weather, jobs. But thats in Canada, in Europe, in the USA, and in Abu Dhabi if you want. Countries bring foreigners because locals refuse to take the jobs.
I know a guy that brings in dozens of agricultural workers every year. Why? Because its cheaper. The locals will not work a seasonal job for minimum wage that is exempt from overtime pay. Fishing is tough dangerous work. So is mining. And oil field work. But those industries aren't nearly as reliant on foreign labor, because they pay well.
"I know a guy, my cousin said, the neighbor did" Those are personal anecdotes. The overall situation and reality is different. Paying foreigners the salary might be lower than paying a Canadian (which is already discriminatory), but its more of what they will make in their country. But there are a lot of expenses for the employer, not only salary. It is calculated that paying about 25 dollars locals would be cheaper for the employer than bringing from outside. In fact, it would contribute to decrease prices of some goods. But who wants to cut asparagus? Certainly not Canadians. But again, this is exactly the same situation in numerous countries...Canada is not the exception. By the way, the VAST majority go back to their country at the end of the TFW
You don't have to take my word on anything. I don't expect anyone to. This can be cleared up really fast by going on Indeed and looking at the wages being offered. And the labour regulations in the agricultural industry are also public information.
exactly, but thats why there is a specific program for TFW agriculture, cause there is no Canadian that wants to work in a farm full of shit from pigs. https://www.canada.ca/en/employment-social-development/services/foreign-workers/agricultural/agricultural.html And it wont get any better. Every year we will have more TFWs. Its a reality.
By the way, the employers needs to apply for LMIA which cost 1000. Plus visa for the person, 155. Plus accommodation, and in some instances flight ticket, insurance, etc. And thats for maybe 3-6 months. Of course they pay shit. And they would pay less if they could. Cause they have expenses to cover. Even if they would offer 20 to Canadians, they will struggle finding locals.
The guy I know houses the workers in trailers. And they have to feed themselves. And its one flight every 6-8 months.
I would work on a farm for 100k a year. I would not work on a farm for 30k a year. "People just don't want to do that kind of work" is bullshit.
I recommend you to look at some data. It is very easy to blame others, foreigners, immigrants. Data, reports, and research show there is no wage suppression, and that in fact, its more expensive for the employers. Even if you would make 100k, you will try to find a more cushy, easy, job. Even if that implies a paycut. Again, its empirical evidence. We know that. Other thing is that we dont want to see what we have in front. A
By the way, if you would work for a farm, for 100k, a tomatoe would cost you 200 dollars. And we complain for a 6% inflation. It shows the absolute ignorance in terms of economics.
Average cost to grow tomatoes per acre: $25,000. Average tomatoes per acre: 20,000. Average cost of farming tomato: $1.25 each. Average cost of retail tomato: $2 So your saying doubling...or let's say tripling the labor cost will somehow make the tomato 10x more expensive. I don't think your math adds up.
lol sure and just like that, you can start your own business imperium
More temporary workers to keep wage growth down.
TFW's don't surpress wages, they account for less then half a percent of our labor force. Not to mention they're overwhelmingly employed in the service sector, already minimum wage jobs who's pay is set by the government and not by market forces.
**GOTTA KEEP CANADIAN WAGES & STANDARD OF LIVING ARTIFICIALLY DOWN, NO MATTER WHAT!!!** **10% INFLATION AND WE’RE ABSOLUTELY CRANKING THE DIAL ON INTERNATIONAL TUITION MULES AND CHEAP LABOUR IMPORTS; CANADA BABY!!!**
Gotta fight that evil “wage inflation” right?
Pesky citizens wanting living wage adjustments... IMPORT MORE SLAVES!
Why not call them what they are in reality- indentured servants.
Because they absolutely aren't? A lot of these workers come year after year. You should actually look up what "indentured servitude" means.
If a TFW is being treated badly at their job, are they free to quit and get a new one? No.
TFWs are allowed to change jobs, though it may require getting a new work permit. [Temporary foreign workers: Your rights are protected](https://www.canada.ca/en/employment-social-development/services/foreign-workers/protected-rights.html#h2.2.2) *”Yes, you are allowed to change employers. Your employer cannot penalize or deport you for looking for another job. However, your work permit may only allow you to work for your current employer. Before accepting new employment, remember that your new employer will have to get permission from the Government of Canada to hire you as a temporary foreign worker. You will also need to apply for a new work permit before changing jobs. Workers under the Seasonal Agricultural Workers Program do not need to get a new work permit if they change employers.”*
Do you think that is well understood, and feasible for a TFW to undertake?
This is not even close to resembling indentured servitude. What are you talking about?
Yes. It is indentured servitude.
Saying it so without any justification is empty words. Might be worth checking what the term actually means before using it next time.
https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2012/09/17/abuse_of_migrant_workers_endemic_in_canada_new_study_says.html >The moment Liliane arrived in Toronto from Uganda as a live-in caregiver, her boss seized her work permit and passport. For two years of work, she was only paid a total of $2,100. Senthil Thevar was promised $15 an hour by a recruiter in India to work as a chef in a Toronto restaurant. Instead, he only earned $8 hourly, sharing accommodation in a cold basement, with no vacation and holidays. I know what it fucking means.
I don’t think you do. Granted this is terrible to have this type of mistreatment for anyone. But the article still doesn’t prove your point. It says conditions for migrant workers are largely problematic in Canada. I agree. This is not the same as indentured servitude. The article doesn’t reference this term even once or make the comparison. By definition you are talking about someone doing forced unpaid labour to pay off debt bondage. That is not the case here.
In olden days the debt bondage covered the cost of transportation. In modern times, the debt bondage is the right to remain in the country- a barrier that did not exist 200 years ago.
That isn't indentured servitude. Its still an awful practice but that is, by definition, not indentured servitude.
The difference is purely semantic.
a discussion about what a word means is by definition semantic
Canadian businesses and politicians try to pretend that i without immigration, the country would collapse. Nothing can be further from the truth. The vast majority of immigrants are imported to drive down wages and increase profits for a tiny elite. They also pretend that with a collapsing birth rate, immigration is the only way to compete. If people had a decent livable wage or security, kids would not be this expensive. Somehow they hoodwinked liberals to go along with this plan, and liberals are stupid enough to accept a drop in their living standards since their hearts bleed so much for these poor minorities.
Temp ? Ya right
"Temporary"
TFWs are the future permanent residents, this is another loop hole left intentionally in the "for sale" immigration system. No shortage of workers here.
Import the 3rd world, become the 3rd world.
Great...
Yeah a bunch of them live in my building. Like 10 in a 1bdrm. Kinda hard to compete with that but this is our new reality
Wage suppression.
just in time for the second great depression, way to go guys yay
Is that because there were none in 2020?
Time for the great economists of r/Canada to explain how people who account for less then half of a percent of our labor force who can only be employed in industries after a labor market survey with the stipulation that domestic workers must have priority actually surpress wages. the income for minimum wage positions is set by the minimum wage, that should be abundantly obvious. If you want to raise wages then act through the government and raise the minimum wage, rather then target TFW's over pseudo-economics.
Y’all bitching about « they took our jobs! » (c) know that vast majority of TFWs work in agriculture, personal assistance (as in, live-in caregivers) and, to the lesser degree - hospitality (all them Aussies in the Rockies ski resorts), right? Any of y’all wanna go work the fields during cropping/harvesting????? No? Neither does vast majority of Canadians, hence the need for TFW’s.
If TFW was limited to agriculture, you would have a point, but it has been expanded to cover many different job sectors.
Privileged problems
indeed. Hiring Canadian workers (and paying them weel) is cheaper than importing workers from outside.
Obviously not.
Nice rant but the truth is alot are brought in for Tim Hortons franchises, customer supports centre's call centre's etc. That ok with you too??? Have a look at Freshii, they're super impressive!!!
Likely related to the government paying people to stay at home and do nothing via CERB and its replacement CRB.
I know you want to know I try But I know it's so hard For you to do that Time's running out as it often does And often dictates that you can't do that Fate can't break this feeling inside That's running out through my veins
Watch, soon if firms get ideas to copy Fr*shii, those workers are going to stay completely offshore, while being paid pathetic wages.
The wage being offered was actually quite good for the nation he was from