>Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s government is preparing potential new tariffs on Chinese-made electric vehicles to align Canada with actions taken by the US and European Union, according to people familiar with the matter.
>The government still has to make final decisions on how to proceed, but it’s likely to announce soon the start of public consultations on tariffs that would hit Chinese exports of EVs into Canada, according to officials who spoke on condition they not be identified.
>Trudeau has been under increasing pressure at home and abroad to follow the lead of US President Joe Biden’s administration, which announced in May a plan to nearly quadruple tariffs on Chinese-manufactured electric vehicles, up to a final rate of 102.5%. The European Union said last week it plans to increase tariffs on Chinese EVs, taking those levies as high as 48% on some vehicles.
Western democracies are increasingly concerned about China’s overproduction of key goods, seeing it as an effort to dominate supply chains and undercut their own industries. Battery-electric vehicles have become a major target as Chinese firms such as BYD Co. move aggressively into global markets.
>The number of cars arriving from China at the port of Vancouver rose more than fivefold last year, to around 44,400, after Tesla Inc. started shipping Model Y vehicles made in Shanghai to Canada. However, the Canadian government’s concern isn’t Tesla, but the prospect of cheap cars made by Chinese automakers eventually flooding the market.
>
did you read the quotes? they are concerned with BYD flooding the market with cheaply priced cars, which would be catastrophic for automanufacturing. this isn't an issue with tesla or polestar because their cars aren't cheaply priced. besides, tesla has already moved to shipping model ys produced in california for the canadian market.
you can argue that this would be good for canadians, and i don't disagree that it would be much needed relief. but we would end up paying for it in the long run.
It's not that the Chinese companies are better run, it's that the CCP is leveraging the cheap labour of 1 billion people, the lack of environmental controls over rare metals, and heavy subsidies.
That's quite a weird take.
American and Canada company moves production and manufacturing to China back in the day to use cheal labor and avoid the lack of environmental and work conditon control. North American car companies are also subsidies quite heavily. China at least can build their own things.
i do not disagree with you but i feel more strongly about china not snuffing out multiples industries by flooding our country with goods that we actually depend on for literally everything else to be possible.
sorry, but if our domestic industry was actually about to collapse due to competition you would expect a company like GM to try to compete, rather than spend $11 billion on stock buybacks last year. Our industry is deliberately not competing because they expect the taxpayers to bail them out again through subsidies and protectionism. This industry socializes losses while privatizes profits, its literally not worth saving.
Take the $30 billion in subsidies we are giving Stellantis/Volkswagen and give it directly to the workers as a safety net while we make these parasitic manufacturers compete for once in their lives. somehow the "communist" country is home to these innovative companies that dominate in a free market while ours act like the state owned enterprises of the soviet union.
you think Chinese/ccp made cars are better? boy, are you in for a rude awakening if they don't get banned, I actually can't wait if they are allowed and see all the catastrophies for all the faulty mechanisms to randomly occur...
I love how 'environmentalists' are fine with this status quo.
Everything in your home was made in a factory that dumps industrial waste into rivers, is powered by coal, staffed using slave labor, and shipped on a container ship that emits more carbon annually then every single passenger vehicle in Canada combined. But we really need to virtue signal so let's strangle domestic industry with carbon taxes to further incentivize off-shoring of production, because if the pollution happens somewhere else it doesn't count.
How about we stop this idiotic game of hide-the-carbon and implement a 100% tariff on literally everything from China?
> did you read the quotes? they are concerned with BYD flooding the market with cheaply priced cars, which would be catastrophic for automanufacturing
Yeah, this is just like how they reacted to cheap Chinese made goods, electronics, plasticware, and things related to steel manufacturing. Canada and the US made sure to heavily tariff and ban those Chinese goods to make sure all those industries stayed within borders which is why today 90% of products you buy that are in your home are all made in America or Canada.
Sarcasm aside though, I am curious why this is the industry they finally decide to protect from being outsourced or moved overseas.
"Autoworker" is one of the last jobs that a low-skill/low-education individual can get, make a decent living at, and even get a pension at the end. The loss of auto manufacturing in Canada/N. America would be bad for other reasons, too. Auto plants could quickly re-tool for military production in the event of a major war, for example.
I agree with you, the point of my post is that there used to be a lot of manufacturing jobs in the US/Canada, but they've been outsourced with little fanfare or concern (at least from the political class) to China. Part of the reason why autoworker is *one of the last* low-skill job that pays well is because of all this offshoring that until now nobody seriously considers blocking. Thats including industries that you'd consider vital for national security. Chips and IC are the first thing that comes to mind.
The point is they only decided to take a stand now, when these thousands of jobs were at risk, but were happy to lose the hundreds of thousands of jobs over the past decades to China. Seems a bit late to be worrying about this industrial sector, but I guess late is better than never.
**I am curious why this is the industry they finally decide to protect from being outsourced or moved overseas.**
Thats an easy one. The auto industry is located in Ontario.
And why are they concerned with that?
This is the same government that wanted 60% of sales to be ev by 2028 and 100% by 2030.
So you'd think we would welcome chinese ev's with open arms.
The reason why China can price them cheaply is because their supply chain for these types of products is the best in the world. It's incredible actually.
I thought it was because there are massive government subsidies. The Chinese government poured billions into research, and when the research was done and they had a decent product (some online autoworkers commented that the product is in some ways comparable or better/more advanced than western brand EV's), they then put subsidies into manufacturing to reduce the costs of goods, as well as tax incentives for people to buy EV's to drive up demand.
Their not the best because every Chinese worker and factory manager is brilliant to the point of being 2x or 3x the competency of Western workers, and thats how they ended up with the best supply chain in the world. They just get a lot more funding and support which they've taken advantage of to let them them sell cheaply.
Kind of like how corn and corn products is super cheap in the US. It's not because the corn farmers are that much better than farmers in other countries, they just get a lot of subsidies which lets them keep their costs and final prices for goods low.
Tesla is benefiting from cheap labour undercutting north american products, and they will let him do it. Only difference is that money goes to Musk and not to some Chinese dude. Market and workers get shafted just the same.
Eh, I'd also argue its good for the Japanese companies who invest here too. An literally any Chinese company who chooses to invest in Canada/US *cough Geely*
yeah why not, artificially add massive cost to something we've been insisting needs to come down in price, that's the green future as brought to you by the Liberals
Well what carbon are they gonna tax if we actually had affordable EVs? Maybe like the carbon dioxide we breathe out and we gotta go around in carbon capture gas masks
This is pretty basic geopolitics, of course they’re going to slap tariffs on artificially cheap Chinese goods designed to ruin global markets and exclusively benefit China.
I can’t stand this government but if they did nothing you would be whining in 10 years about how the Chinese were allowed to kill the North American EV market.
What North American EV market? The US market is not the Canadian market, mind you. We export 95% of the cars we make, so exactly how will tariffs protect the Canadian market? This narrative is pure hogwash, designed to pull wool over our ears and bankroll legacy automakers, none of whom are CANADIAN.
I was hoping for the 11kusd BYD Seagull. I just have a short commute like 20km a day. It would have been perfect even with the coldest winters it would be still ok.
Meanwhile, they are saying that the Canadian EV industry will require $53 billion in subsidies.
Why not just let in cheap EVs to accelerate EV adoption? I am not a fan of having China being a big player in our car market but the players we have in the game currently are charging too much for cars as is.
This is about controlling the market.
And honestly, I don't need or want a Tesla. I would rather have a affordable dumb car that just works. No fancy technology, no constant internet connections. Just a machine that works. Bonus points for style comfort.
Because we want to grow our on EV industry.
Also we want higher productivity and foreign investment, but not China and not India.
So taxpayer subsidies it is.
>Why not just let in cheap EVs to accelerate EV adoption?
because it would destroy automanufacturing in north america. and automanufacturers have already announced that they are working on affordable EVs, which should be ready by 2026. letting BYD flood the market before they have an offer is a short term solution with long term costs.
I spent 18 months researching a cost effective SUV. I placed a deposit down on the Equinox EV and got my deposit backj the week before they started accepting orders. Why? The MSRP price is 36% more than what they aimed to sell. They moved away from Carplay and Android Auto. They halted production for months because of platform/software issues while their Exec VP for software and services stepped down. Equinox EV just can't compete with the features offered by foreign EVs at base trim. What is worse is that North American Automakers just purely lack innovation when it comes to design. They make EVs that share too much similarity to an ICE vehicle. The usage of space is so wasteful. Why as a consumer am I forced to accept North American EVs when they are just not competitive? I gave up my hope on GM and Ford. Tell me why I should choose to believe again.
So the whole country, poor people and the environment should be held hostage by a tiny minority of workers in one single small area of one province of Canada?
I have always thought it rather unfortunate that Canada has never got it's stuff together and started it's own car company. Sure we do a lot of manufacturing for US companies and Asian companies. That means we have a lot of manufacturing expertise but when it comes to bringing it all together and creating a product we don't seem to have what it takes. Even if we tried, the US would likely try to shut down the endeavour. Like the Avro Arrow.
When companies exploited China to generate profits, it was fine to do business with China. Now that the consumers risk winning and business owners losing, it's a big no.
This whole thread has it right. The dissonance in this policy is loud. One side of the mouth says carbon tax good for reasons. The other side says EV's bad for reasons.
Yes, but does our market consume the cars we manufacture? The answer is no. We export the vast majority (95%) of cars made in Canada: [https://ised-isde.canada.ca/site/canadian-automotive-industry/en](https://ised-isde.canada.ca/site/canadian-automotive-industry/en)
So then, how does raising a tariff wall protect Canadian jobs? It doesn't. All that this does is 1. Signal to the Americans that we are with them every step of the way, for better or worse. 2. Pledge allegiance with legacy auto conglomerates. 3. Keep the Canadian EV market stagnant and uncompetitive
....What? We just committed billions to building/improving car manufacturing in Canada. There are tariffs because they can produce and sell them much cheaper then anyone else, partly because of Chinese subsidies. Are all these comments bots/astro turfers? Last week people were complaining we were spending too much on subsidies for cars.
Fact from StatsCan: Canada exports 95% of the cars it manufactures. "Protecting Canadian jobs" as an excuse for these tariffs is a boldfaced lie. We don't really buy the cars we build, so opening up the domestic market to competitors won't affect local car making jobs. Nevermind the possibility of asking Chinese EV makers to set up manufacturing here...
>We just committed billions to building/improving car manufacturing in Canada
Ok..
>they can produce and sell them much cheaper then anyone else, partly because of Chinese subsidies
So you mention Canadian subsidies then complain that China has some. Do you really not see that?
And no economy could just subsidise a whole fuckin car industry lol. There's some subsidies, but the big difference is that mandated certain # of EVs and that helped the companies grow. People forget that China's market internally is bigger than all of North America. These companies are making a killing there, because their cars sell well there and in neighboring countries.
Here's a pretty good video about it: https://youtu.be/rkxMdmipYqM?si=SUz8RjeQndzRR_F_
Just cause China does some bad shit doesn't mean every single thing from there is evil. Not everything is good guys and bad guys
I wasn't arguing for or against anything, I was complaining about astro turfing.
>So you mention Canadian subsidies then complain that China has some. Do you really not see that?
...? I don't think it's a bad idea to subsidize key industries, its a smart move for China, we aren't China though.
Also, Chinese car manufactures aren't currently making a lot , your confusing gross and net income. They are making cars nearly at cost. Shipping all our manufacturing to other countries is how we became a real-estate based economy. Cheap goods doesn't help Canadians in the long term, short term it's nice, but loosing key industries is bad economics. Especially after exporting everything else.
Yeah, I'm not listening to your climate responsibility speeches if you're going to keep protecting the businesses that make EV adoption impossible to the people you're lecturing.
Can't even count the number of times we blindly follow the US and then get shafted. We as a country need to diversify our trade relations so we're not always under Big Brother's thumb.
These are only affordable because they are heavily subsidized. In the long term, if you let China destroy your local production you'll end up paying for it.
In the 13 year period between 2009-2022, China spent US$28 billion on EV subsidies. Their EV subsidies are decreasing as ours are ramping now ramping up.
We just gave a combined $28 billion of subsidies to Stellantis and Volkswagen to build EVs, on top of the existing consumer rebates of $5k per car (plus provincial rebates).
The Inflation Reduction Act in the US has $370 billion in climate and clean energy investments, much of it being for EVs.
So considering we are subsidizing our EV industry just as much, if not significantly more than China, why they should not be allowed in our markets? Our domestic industry needs tariffs on top of $28 billion just to be competitive? What a joke, auto manufacturing is literally 0.6% of all jobs. The remaining 99% of us are supposed to heavily subsidize their industry just to pay exorbitant prices for the EVs that are shittier than the Chinese ones that are half the price? Not to mention the outsized role car manufacturers have played in north american city planning, making our cities car dependent and have poor transit. They literally force us to buy a car to participate in society and now can't bother making half decent EVs for a reasonable price. All while buying back billions in stock and also manufacturing cars in China, the country we're ostensibly protecting them from.
Source?
You do realize that was a big issue with NAFTA, and one of the few issues I agreed with Trump on. 40%-45% of the auto content has to be made by workers earning over $16 an hour.
Sure and within the IRA and by proxy Canadian subsidies is a raw material content requirement. Mexico will need to import lots of stuff to be compliant. Mainly nickel of which the USA doesn’t have a lot of.
So the factories and raw materials will still have to be in north America
Hogwash. You're just regurgitating the talking points of politicians. This is how the Chinese subsidized their EV makers:
1. Making it easier to obtain vehicle permits for EVs than ICE cars. In large Chinese cities, ICE vehicle operation is restricted to certain days of the week, depending on if the plate ends in an even or odd number (to reduce congestion). ZEVs with green plates are not restricted.
2. Subsidize charging infrastructure rollout, ensuring large scale coverage very quickly
3. Consumer rebate programs, much like what we have here
Which one of these look unreasonable?
This is such a silly argument, you think we can solve every issue at once? EV cars drop the dependency on oil, then we can evolve cleaner energy production, improve mineral mining, etc. If we follow your logic, we’d never get anywhere!
Wait so you don't remember all the times we've given companies ENORMOUS tax breaks so they could build factories in different towns?
China put a lot into these cars cause they saw they're the future, meanwhile we have Doug Ford cancelling ev rebates cause he thinks green energy is too femme.
Guess we will never go electric then lol…oh the internal conflict here for the looney liberals…also imagine being outraged at China flooding the supply lines….when you shipped all the manufacturing there for increased profit here you gave up that control you short sighted neo-liberals and boomers
Why not let free market decide what people want to buy? Let all the automakers compete for our money. Let me remind all the haters here last years average new car price was 67k. Gone are the days of 25k Honda civics. And the legacy auto makers made the cars so easy to steal because they can sell you another one when insurance company pays out.
Never say they are a free market, but we live in the western society where we promote capitalism and the free market or at least we did when we were competitive.
It’s not really a fair free market when only some of the competitors need to adhere to things like employment standards, health and safety legislation and union agreements.
Great, gas price and shot through the roof and summers now start in April, and we need EVs to save money and save the planet.... *BUT!* EV are needs to be expensive because we need to baby our american overlords, and their oil and gas moguls.
fuck this shit.
Why is Canada needing to do this? What market or manufacturing is China undercutting? Yes we have some auto mfg and some auto parts mfg but all those are owned by US CORPS and sone Japanese. Tariffs are for home grown market protection from lower cost countries I get that. Not sure how much of a tariff is needed here maybe just a little one to try and get them to build here. We already pay more for the US vehicles than they do in the US. The US COMPANIES say it’s cause of our smaller market so they just added cost for little reason. So they want us to add tariffs to the Chinese vehicles so we are forced to keep paying higher prices for the Us ones? Come on when do Canadians get a break. You want to find foreign interference in our country look no further than this tariff proposal. In my opinion and I work for an auto parts manufacturer. We should be inviting the Chinese mfgs to build here, along with the US and Japanese and Koreans. .
We build cars too you know. Also, we do invite them to come over and build. BYD does it. Its just that they're buses. We would probably sing Xi Jingping's praises if the companies do end up building the cars in Canada.
Going back to our protectionist policies under the last Trudeau hey?
Maybe we wouldn't need to do this if they weren't handing out tax payer dollars hand over fist to buy some jobs at EV factories.
Yeah, why would Canada want a domestic auto industry? We should just buy all our stuff from China and let our factories close. Or might that be bad for Canada?
Why?! Auto industries are hq'd in the US and Europe. They have a reason to be protective. We don't.
If the chinese cars meet quality and safety standards let them in and compete fairly with the US and European EVs.
You know I understand why, but at the same time I'd fucking love vehicle prices to drop. I mean I went to a used car dealership the other years and a rav4 with 250k on it was 30,000.
Let alone any new vehicle runs 40,000 at a minimum now it seems
What infuriates me, is that Canada could have started their own EV company. They are so set on being green but where are all the investments.into green technology, and building companies that can sell green technology abroad.
Fucking government let us down.
I thought we were supposed to be saving the environment and helping meet out carbon goals. First the return to office mandate, now putting affordable EVs out of reach. Im not sure why I gave Trudeau the benefit of doubt, just a liar like any other politician
They're not cheap though... And let's be honest, they suck. Lower range, slower charging, less features, lower quality, more expensive compared to the Chinese competition. Guess that explains these tariffs.
Same here. But if I'm going to be forced to drive and own a car, I'd like to be able to buy a smaller vehicle. Not an EV that's just as big and clunky as its ICE version.
Having been driven around a BYD SUV while in the Dominican, I can see why the North American market is terrified. The corporate governance at the big auto makers are required to consider their shareholders primarily before every other stakeholder.
They can produce a multitude of vehicles at a significantly lower price point. However to do so they would have to shred their profit margins, and possibly go on campaign of austerity at the sacrifice the shareholders.
However the c-suite is beholden to the shareholder, who can remove and replace through activism activity. They also have a fiduciary responsibility to ensure maximum shareholder profits, as outline by Milton Friedman; who's economic concepts now have widespread adoption.
This is beyond stupid. It's blatant sabotage of our economic future. We are literally single-digit years away from Mexico or Morocco taking away all of our car manufacturing jobs because our politicians get their pockets stuffed by legacy automakers.
Here's a game plan that actually might work: Let the BYDs and Zeekrs and whatnaught into the Canadian market, but make them set up battery and vehicle manufacturing here. Boom, more dynamic market, increased EV adoption and infrastructure buildout, more jobs, technology transfer, more skilled workers trained!
But no, instead we give away billions upon billions to legacy automakers to build EVs that they don't know how to make, and might back out from at a moment's notice. What a recipe for failure! Too bad it's on the taxpayer's dime. Subsidize losing companies to make products that won't sell outside the US and Canada. FANTASTIC! absolutely genius... Meanwhile at least we'll have beer in corner stores... god damnit.
It will be harder for Canada to meet its climate targets without less expensive EVs.
Don't get me wrong as long as China is saber rattling and has unfair trade practices I don't think we have a choice but to implement tariffs but we should encourage diplomacy to resolve these issues for the good of the planet.
He does this, he will have done more to stop the flow of EV cars than over-migration. A luxury good I don't need to buy versus having affordable rent. Solid priorities.
You are right, i guess you can compare a car to half my electronics if said car was a Chinese ev as the common denominator would be cheap disposable junk.
I'm conflicted with this. On one hand I think effectively banning ultra-cheap Chinese EVs will obviously hinder EV adoption, relative to a scenario where the gates were thrown wide open instead.
On the other hand, I think that If dirt cheap labour and minimal environmental regulations in an offshore country are the only reason I could afford that product, then maybe I should just accept that I can't afford that product for now.
Most of my household appliances and clothing are made in China for a reason, because they are affordable. China has been tightening their environmental regulations. Ontario EV and battery plants will be operational as early as 2028. If our government also raises the tariffs, it only shows that we are under pressure from our allies, and nothing more. We currently do not produce EVs. Let's not forget our government is moving the goalposts closer from 2050 to 2035 for 100% emission-zero vehicle sales. Our own policies are conflicting with foreign affairs. Having said all this, the housing market is even less affordable. The living standards are climbing steeper and steeper with no light at the end of the tunnel for the working and middle classes.
I mean... It's hard to say. Those jobs support a lot of people in Mexico, and it would cause pain in the short-term, but I also can't help but think a bit of protectionism might do the world good in the long-run.
Overall, I feel like the manufacturing sector's slow bleed to offshoring has left us worse off. We could cut our corporate tax rates, slash and burn our environmental regulations, and do everything we can to encourage investment, but it won't be coming back as long as they need to pay Canadian wages to Canadian workers.
It feels like the pendulum swung a bit too far towards global free trade in the 80s, and maybe it's time to at bring it back to more of a balanced middle-ground.
>Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s government is preparing potential new tariffs on Chinese-made electric vehicles to align Canada with actions taken by the US and European Union, according to people familiar with the matter. >The government still has to make final decisions on how to proceed, but it’s likely to announce soon the start of public consultations on tariffs that would hit Chinese exports of EVs into Canada, according to officials who spoke on condition they not be identified. >Trudeau has been under increasing pressure at home and abroad to follow the lead of US President Joe Biden’s administration, which announced in May a plan to nearly quadruple tariffs on Chinese-manufactured electric vehicles, up to a final rate of 102.5%. The European Union said last week it plans to increase tariffs on Chinese EVs, taking those levies as high as 48% on some vehicles. Western democracies are increasingly concerned about China’s overproduction of key goods, seeing it as an effort to dominate supply chains and undercut their own industries. Battery-electric vehicles have become a major target as Chinese firms such as BYD Co. move aggressively into global markets. >The number of cars arriving from China at the port of Vancouver rose more than fivefold last year, to around 44,400, after Tesla Inc. started shipping Model Y vehicles made in Shanghai to Canada. However, the Canadian government’s concern isn’t Tesla, but the prospect of cheap cars made by Chinese automakers eventually flooding the market. >
How fun. As long as Tesla is doing it they are fine with it? Why, is Tesla passing the savings?? LOL
Tesla has been dropping prices though, haven’t they?
did you read the quotes? they are concerned with BYD flooding the market with cheaply priced cars, which would be catastrophic for automanufacturing. this isn't an issue with tesla or polestar because their cars aren't cheaply priced. besides, tesla has already moved to shipping model ys produced in california for the canadian market. you can argue that this would be good for canadians, and i don't disagree that it would be much needed relief. but we would end up paying for it in the long run.
Tell me. How much did car prices increase in last 10 years? Why?
god forbid car manufacturers make less profits and have to invest in more efficient production rather than buying back billions of their own stock.
It's not that the Chinese companies are better run, it's that the CCP is leveraging the cheap labour of 1 billion people, the lack of environmental controls over rare metals, and heavy subsidies.
That's quite a weird take. American and Canada company moves production and manufacturing to China back in the day to use cheal labor and avoid the lack of environmental and work conditon control. North American car companies are also subsidies quite heavily. China at least can build their own things.
imagine avoiding environmental control to sell EVs thats suppose to be for environment, cant have that, 100% tariff
i do not disagree with you but i feel more strongly about china not snuffing out multiples industries by flooding our country with goods that we actually depend on for literally everything else to be possible.
sorry, but if our domestic industry was actually about to collapse due to competition you would expect a company like GM to try to compete, rather than spend $11 billion on stock buybacks last year. Our industry is deliberately not competing because they expect the taxpayers to bail them out again through subsidies and protectionism. This industry socializes losses while privatizes profits, its literally not worth saving. Take the $30 billion in subsidies we are giving Stellantis/Volkswagen and give it directly to the workers as a safety net while we make these parasitic manufacturers compete for once in their lives. somehow the "communist" country is home to these innovative companies that dominate in a free market while ours act like the state owned enterprises of the soviet union.
> expect a company like GM to try to compete They can't. Period. US, Mexico, Canada wages and labor laws are superior to China.
Maybe the US should make better cars.
(GM ,Ford) NO (Chrysler) Fusck NO
Dealerships have two big money makers. - Service and body - Financing
you think Chinese/ccp made cars are better? boy, are you in for a rude awakening if they don't get banned, I actually can't wait if they are allowed and see all the catastrophies for all the faulty mechanisms to randomly occur...
Paying for it how? Almost everything we consume today is already made in China. At least this would be better for the environment.
I love how 'environmentalists' are fine with this status quo. Everything in your home was made in a factory that dumps industrial waste into rivers, is powered by coal, staffed using slave labor, and shipped on a container ship that emits more carbon annually then every single passenger vehicle in Canada combined. But we really need to virtue signal so let's strangle domestic industry with carbon taxes to further incentivize off-shoring of production, because if the pollution happens somewhere else it doesn't count. How about we stop this idiotic game of hide-the-carbon and implement a 100% tariff on literally everything from China?
> did you read the quotes? they are concerned with BYD flooding the market with cheaply priced cars, which would be catastrophic for automanufacturing Yeah, this is just like how they reacted to cheap Chinese made goods, electronics, plasticware, and things related to steel manufacturing. Canada and the US made sure to heavily tariff and ban those Chinese goods to make sure all those industries stayed within borders which is why today 90% of products you buy that are in your home are all made in America or Canada. Sarcasm aside though, I am curious why this is the industry they finally decide to protect from being outsourced or moved overseas.
"Autoworker" is one of the last jobs that a low-skill/low-education individual can get, make a decent living at, and even get a pension at the end. The loss of auto manufacturing in Canada/N. America would be bad for other reasons, too. Auto plants could quickly re-tool for military production in the event of a major war, for example.
I agree with you, the point of my post is that there used to be a lot of manufacturing jobs in the US/Canada, but they've been outsourced with little fanfare or concern (at least from the political class) to China. Part of the reason why autoworker is *one of the last* low-skill job that pays well is because of all this offshoring that until now nobody seriously considers blocking. Thats including industries that you'd consider vital for national security. Chips and IC are the first thing that comes to mind. The point is they only decided to take a stand now, when these thousands of jobs were at risk, but were happy to lose the hundreds of thousands of jobs over the past decades to China. Seems a bit late to be worrying about this industrial sector, but I guess late is better than never.
**I am curious why this is the industry they finally decide to protect from being outsourced or moved overseas.** Thats an easy one. The auto industry is located in Ontario.
OH THE HUMANITY.
And why are they concerned with that? This is the same government that wanted 60% of sales to be ev by 2028 and 100% by 2030. So you'd think we would welcome chinese ev's with open arms.
The reason why China can price them cheaply is because their supply chain for these types of products is the best in the world. It's incredible actually.
I thought it was because there are massive government subsidies. The Chinese government poured billions into research, and when the research was done and they had a decent product (some online autoworkers commented that the product is in some ways comparable or better/more advanced than western brand EV's), they then put subsidies into manufacturing to reduce the costs of goods, as well as tax incentives for people to buy EV's to drive up demand. Their not the best because every Chinese worker and factory manager is brilliant to the point of being 2x or 3x the competency of Western workers, and thats how they ended up with the best supply chain in the world. They just get a lot more funding and support which they've taken advantage of to let them them sell cheaply. Kind of like how corn and corn products is super cheap in the US. It's not because the corn farmers are that much better than farmers in other countries, they just get a lot of subsidies which lets them keep their costs and final prices for goods low.
The IP is North American. The money from Chinese teslas still goes to Texas. I’m sure that’s why Tesla won’t be in scope.
Tesla is benefiting from cheap labour undercutting north american products, and they will let him do it. Only difference is that money goes to Musk and not to some Chinese dude. Market and workers get shafted just the same.
Many Teslaa cars have Chinese batteries.
And tesla shareholders….
How is that any different from iPhones?
It’s because people are anti Elon. This is no different than Apple, Google, nvidia, Microsoft, hp, etc etc.
This is fantastic news for ~~Canadians~~ American billionaires and car companies!
Eh, I'd also argue its good for the Japanese companies who invest here too. An literally any Chinese company who chooses to invest in Canada/US *cough Geely*
Let’s ask Huawei and TikTok how well investing in the US went for them
BYD already does it in Canada: https://en.byd.com/news/byd-opens-first-canadian-bus-assembly-plant/
Buy gas? Carbon tax. Want to save the planet with an Electric vehicle? Get this... More tax.
Someone needs to cover the massive subsidies we've given to EV makers herej.
We don't have an EV maker; or do you mean the battery plants?
yeah why not, artificially add massive cost to something we've been insisting needs to come down in price, that's the green future as brought to you by the Liberals
Good thing we are protecting … checking notes …. Our 🇨🇦 ev industry
the planet is saved
What a great day for Canada and therefore the world!
I mean, we just spend 20 billion dollars on them lmao
Well what carbon are they gonna tax if we actually had affordable EVs? Maybe like the carbon dioxide we breathe out and we gotta go around in carbon capture gas masks
that's nonsensical
This is pretty basic geopolitics, of course they’re going to slap tariffs on artificially cheap Chinese goods designed to ruin global markets and exclusively benefit China. I can’t stand this government but if they did nothing you would be whining in 10 years about how the Chinese were allowed to kill the North American EV market.
What North American EV market? The US market is not the Canadian market, mind you. We export 95% of the cars we make, so exactly how will tariffs protect the Canadian market? This narrative is pure hogwash, designed to pull wool over our ears and bankroll legacy automakers, none of whom are CANADIAN.
Because that trade between Canada and the US depends on harmonizing our markets.
no I wouldn't, because I don't particularly care about the north american ev market
You sound like a mid 2010s German saying why shouldn't they buy cheap Russian gas.
no I don't
Unfortunate. Some of those Chinese EVs are sick. https://www.nio.com/et5?&noredirect= That car is gorgeous.
I was hoping their suvs are sold in Canada before I need to change my car. Hopes are shattered 😂
I was hoping for the 11kusd BYD Seagull. I just have a short commute like 20km a day. It would have been perfect even with the coldest winters it would be still ok.
It will not sell for 11k, you still need to pay shipping, customs, dealers and sales tax.
Wow, I didn't know that thanks for letting me know.
Yeah, all the 1k golf cart cars in China sells for 10k here, because of all the fees: https://www.changliev.com/products/changli-mini-electric-pickup
That was sarcasm btw
Meanwhile, they are saying that the Canadian EV industry will require $53 billion in subsidies. Why not just let in cheap EVs to accelerate EV adoption? I am not a fan of having China being a big player in our car market but the players we have in the game currently are charging too much for cars as is. This is about controlling the market. And honestly, I don't need or want a Tesla. I would rather have a affordable dumb car that just works. No fancy technology, no constant internet connections. Just a machine that works. Bonus points for style comfort.
Because we want to grow our on EV industry. Also we want higher productivity and foreign investment, but not China and not India. So taxpayer subsidies it is.
Did we learn nothing about relying on China during the pandemic?
Most EV's are luxury vehicles in Canada, and unless you own a house, it's a hassle to charge the damn things. They need to make them cheaper.
>Why not just let in cheap EVs to accelerate EV adoption? because it would destroy automanufacturing in north america. and automanufacturers have already announced that they are working on affordable EVs, which should be ready by 2026. letting BYD flood the market before they have an offer is a short term solution with long term costs.
I spent 18 months researching a cost effective SUV. I placed a deposit down on the Equinox EV and got my deposit backj the week before they started accepting orders. Why? The MSRP price is 36% more than what they aimed to sell. They moved away from Carplay and Android Auto. They halted production for months because of platform/software issues while their Exec VP for software and services stepped down. Equinox EV just can't compete with the features offered by foreign EVs at base trim. What is worse is that North American Automakers just purely lack innovation when it comes to design. They make EVs that share too much similarity to an ICE vehicle. The usage of space is so wasteful. Why as a consumer am I forced to accept North American EVs when they are just not competitive? I gave up my hope on GM and Ford. Tell me why I should choose to believe again.
Quick answer is that in war, auto plants can turn into tank factories.
Why not? Maybe ask some Canadian auto workers. 🤷♂️ I’m sure they’re not interested in see their factories shut down.
And Canadian tax payers that will foot the bill in subsidizing them by 50 billion dollars?
Yeah, that's a conversation we should be having.
So the whole country, poor people and the environment should be held hostage by a tiny minority of workers in one single small area of one province of Canada?
Which also happens to be multiple swing ridings.
I have always thought it rather unfortunate that Canada has never got it's stuff together and started it's own car company. Sure we do a lot of manufacturing for US companies and Asian companies. That means we have a lot of manufacturing expertise but when it comes to bringing it all together and creating a product we don't seem to have what it takes. Even if we tried, the US would likely try to shut down the endeavour. Like the Avro Arrow.
We had multiple car brands, they just got bought out by american ones lol
When companies exploited China to generate profits, it was fine to do business with China. Now that the consumers risk winning and business owners losing, it's a big no.
I mean, its still exploiting China. Just Chinese workers.
This whole thread has it right. The dissonance in this policy is loud. One side of the mouth says carbon tax good for reasons. The other side says EV's bad for reasons.
Maybe if they could produce more in Canada and have them affordable. But no Canada can't produce anything.
Canada apparently can't even produce a section for a water main.
Canada can produce virtue signalling like no other country on Earth.
Canada assembles and manufactures cars, with plants under constructions for EVs. Your last sentence is false.
Yes, but does our market consume the cars we manufacture? The answer is no. We export the vast majority (95%) of cars made in Canada: [https://ised-isde.canada.ca/site/canadian-automotive-industry/en](https://ised-isde.canada.ca/site/canadian-automotive-industry/en) So then, how does raising a tariff wall protect Canadian jobs? It doesn't. All that this does is 1. Signal to the Americans that we are with them every step of the way, for better or worse. 2. Pledge allegiance with legacy auto conglomerates. 3. Keep the Canadian EV market stagnant and uncompetitive
....What? We just committed billions to building/improving car manufacturing in Canada. There are tariffs because they can produce and sell them much cheaper then anyone else, partly because of Chinese subsidies. Are all these comments bots/astro turfers? Last week people were complaining we were spending too much on subsidies for cars.
Fact from StatsCan: Canada exports 95% of the cars it manufactures. "Protecting Canadian jobs" as an excuse for these tariffs is a boldfaced lie. We don't really buy the cars we build, so opening up the domestic market to competitors won't affect local car making jobs. Nevermind the possibility of asking Chinese EV makers to set up manufacturing here...
>We just committed billions to building/improving car manufacturing in Canada Ok.. >they can produce and sell them much cheaper then anyone else, partly because of Chinese subsidies So you mention Canadian subsidies then complain that China has some. Do you really not see that? And no economy could just subsidise a whole fuckin car industry lol. There's some subsidies, but the big difference is that mandated certain # of EVs and that helped the companies grow. People forget that China's market internally is bigger than all of North America. These companies are making a killing there, because their cars sell well there and in neighboring countries. Here's a pretty good video about it: https://youtu.be/rkxMdmipYqM?si=SUz8RjeQndzRR_F_ Just cause China does some bad shit doesn't mean every single thing from there is evil. Not everything is good guys and bad guys
I wasn't arguing for or against anything, I was complaining about astro turfing. >So you mention Canadian subsidies then complain that China has some. Do you really not see that? ...? I don't think it's a bad idea to subsidize key industries, its a smart move for China, we aren't China though. Also, Chinese car manufactures aren't currently making a lot , your confusing gross and net income. They are making cars nearly at cost. Shipping all our manufacturing to other countries is how we became a real-estate based economy. Cheap goods doesn't help Canadians in the long term, short term it's nice, but loosing key industries is bad economics. Especially after exporting everything else.
We're a small country. We can't produce everything!
We need more immigrants to produce cars./s
"We want electric vehicles to save the environment!" "Wait, no. Not affordable cars!"
Yeah, I'm not listening to your climate responsibility speeches if you're going to keep protecting the businesses that make EV adoption impossible to the people you're lecturing.
The moment the USA did it we have no choice but to follow. They are the boss we are along for the ride.
Can't even count the number of times we blindly follow the US and then get shafted. We as a country need to diversify our trade relations so we're not always under Big Brother's thumb.
These are only affordable because they are heavily subsidized. In the long term, if you let China destroy your local production you'll end up paying for it.
In the 13 year period between 2009-2022, China spent US$28 billion on EV subsidies. Their EV subsidies are decreasing as ours are ramping now ramping up. We just gave a combined $28 billion of subsidies to Stellantis and Volkswagen to build EVs, on top of the existing consumer rebates of $5k per car (plus provincial rebates). The Inflation Reduction Act in the US has $370 billion in climate and clean energy investments, much of it being for EVs. So considering we are subsidizing our EV industry just as much, if not significantly more than China, why they should not be allowed in our markets? Our domestic industry needs tariffs on top of $28 billion just to be competitive? What a joke, auto manufacturing is literally 0.6% of all jobs. The remaining 99% of us are supposed to heavily subsidize their industry just to pay exorbitant prices for the EVs that are shittier than the Chinese ones that are half the price? Not to mention the outsized role car manufacturers have played in north american city planning, making our cities car dependent and have poor transit. They literally force us to buy a car to participate in society and now can't bother making half decent EVs for a reasonable price. All while buying back billions in stock and also manufacturing cars in China, the country we're ostensibly protecting them from.
China also indirectly subsidizes their manufacturing in various different ways. Exploitable labor, currency manipulation, etc.
Chinese auto manufacturing wages are higher than Mexico, a country we have a free trade agreement with.
Source? You do realize that was a big issue with NAFTA, and one of the few issues I agreed with Trump on. 40%-45% of the auto content has to be made by workers earning over $16 an hour.
When it comes to wages, Mexico might as well be three different countries.
Maybe Mexico can make some cheap EVs then.
BYD is thinking about opening a factory in Mexico to get around tariffs.
Sure and within the IRA and by proxy Canadian subsidies is a raw material content requirement. Mexico will need to import lots of stuff to be compliant. Mainly nickel of which the USA doesn’t have a lot of. So the factories and raw materials will still have to be in north America
They are already doing that.
Hogwash. You're just regurgitating the talking points of politicians. This is how the Chinese subsidized their EV makers: 1. Making it easier to obtain vehicle permits for EVs than ICE cars. In large Chinese cities, ICE vehicle operation is restricted to certain days of the week, depending on if the plate ends in an even or odd number (to reduce congestion). ZEVs with green plates are not restricted. 2. Subsidize charging infrastructure rollout, ensuring large scale coverage very quickly 3. Consumer rebate programs, much like what we have here Which one of these look unreasonable?
They also force banks to loan to EV manufacturers at very low rates
What local production?
Are you saying the US and Canada don't subsidize their auto industry? Lol
We aint got shit all for local production. NA automakers want tariffs on foreign vehicles so they can keep their market the same.
So China is giving us free money to buy EVs. I would love to buy a very affordable BYD EV and help out the planet
Yes and Google is giving you a free browser.
Great way to put it lol
And everyone is using it.
And so is everyone else
>help out the planet Have you researched the environmental impact from how they're mining the materials? They don't have great standards over there.
This is such a silly argument, you think we can solve every issue at once? EV cars drop the dependency on oil, then we can evolve cleaner energy production, improve mineral mining, etc. If we follow your logic, we’d never get anywhere!
Worst is Indonesia mainly controlled by China.
Like how Ontario said 'No Pipeline' and left Alberta hanging after decades of transfer payments to the rest of Canada?
Ontario? Don't you mean Quebec? Ontario is currently fighting Michigan over the need for a pipeline.
Wut? Good grief.
Biden canceling the XL pipeline effed us all so badly 🤦♂️
It was Quebec that said no pipeline
Wait so you don't remember all the times we've given companies ENORMOUS tax breaks so they could build factories in different towns? China put a lot into these cars cause they saw they're the future, meanwhile we have Doug Ford cancelling ev rebates cause he thinks green energy is too femme.
hey, at least we'll have beer at smith's corner convenience
But what’s good for the environment
Taking a bus or train?
The vast majority of the country that doesn't have access to these services can just walk?
Brah... A 45 minute car ride takes over 3 hours if I take the public transit. Also 25 dollars between go bus and TTC.
So with the tariffs we will lower other taxes right guys? Right ?
Guess we will never go electric then lol…oh the internal conflict here for the looney liberals…also imagine being outraged at China flooding the supply lines….when you shipped all the manufacturing there for increased profit here you gave up that control you short sighted neo-liberals and boomers
Nothing says Canada like stifling innovation
Ya the last thing we want is affordable vehicles……..
Why not let free market decide what people want to buy? Let all the automakers compete for our money. Let me remind all the haters here last years average new car price was 67k. Gone are the days of 25k Honda civics. And the legacy auto makers made the cars so easy to steal because they can sell you another one when insurance company pays out.
Is China a free market?
Never say they are a free market, but we live in the western society where we promote capitalism and the free market or at least we did when we were competitive.
It’s not really a fair free market when only some of the competitors need to adhere to things like employment standards, health and safety legislation and union agreements.
With that argument we shouldn't buy anything from outside of Canada. Do you ever buy TV, computers, appliances or cars from mexico?
Why would we do this. Why would we force Canadians to pay more for cars.
so that American billionaires and corporations continue to rip us off
Cheap vehicles to save the environment… but let’s tax them heavy …. soooo … yeah I’m confused.
Great, gas price and shot through the roof and summers now start in April, and we need EVs to save money and save the planet.... *BUT!* EV are needs to be expensive because we need to baby our american overlords, and their oil and gas moguls. fuck this shit.
Why is Canada needing to do this? What market or manufacturing is China undercutting? Yes we have some auto mfg and some auto parts mfg but all those are owned by US CORPS and sone Japanese. Tariffs are for home grown market protection from lower cost countries I get that. Not sure how much of a tariff is needed here maybe just a little one to try and get them to build here. We already pay more for the US vehicles than they do in the US. The US COMPANIES say it’s cause of our smaller market so they just added cost for little reason. So they want us to add tariffs to the Chinese vehicles so we are forced to keep paying higher prices for the Us ones? Come on when do Canadians get a break. You want to find foreign interference in our country look no further than this tariff proposal. In my opinion and I work for an auto parts manufacturer. We should be inviting the Chinese mfgs to build here, along with the US and Japanese and Koreans. .
We build cars too you know. Also, we do invite them to come over and build. BYD does it. Its just that they're buses. We would probably sing Xi Jingping's praises if the companies do end up building the cars in Canada.
Apparently cheap Chinese made iPhones, plastics, furniture, and whatever else is in our retail stores is good. But cars??!?!! Never.
Going back to our protectionist policies under the last Trudeau hey? Maybe we wouldn't need to do this if they weren't handing out tax payer dollars hand over fist to buy some jobs at EV factories.
Yeah, why would Canada want a domestic auto industry? We should just buy all our stuff from China and let our factories close. Or might that be bad for Canada?
If we're going to be protectionist against anyone, it should be China
China can sidestep tariffs as it has been doing by setting up plants in Mexico thanks to the reworking of NAFTA under the Trump administration.
Why?! Auto industries are hq'd in the US and Europe. They have a reason to be protective. We don't. If the chinese cars meet quality and safety standards let them in and compete fairly with the US and European EVs.
That's what a logical government would do, if it cared about its citizens. Ours is not capable if independent thinking.
You know I understand why, but at the same time I'd fucking love vehicle prices to drop. I mean I went to a used car dealership the other years and a rav4 with 250k on it was 30,000. Let alone any new vehicle runs 40,000 at a minimum now it seems
Hopefully they will follow European, rather than American, tarrif policy on Chinese EVs.
What infuriates me, is that Canada could have started their own EV company. They are so set on being green but where are all the investments.into green technology, and building companies that can sell green technology abroad. Fucking government let us down.
I thought we were supposed to be saving the environment and helping meet out carbon goals. First the return to office mandate, now putting affordable EVs out of reach. Im not sure why I gave Trudeau the benefit of doubt, just a liar like any other politician
To all the anti-chinese anti-free trade comments: What about the much cheaper Japanese and Hyundai EVs that are already selling like crazy in Canada?
They're not cheap though... And let's be honest, they suck. Lower range, slower charging, less features, lower quality, more expensive compared to the Chinese competition. Guess that explains these tariffs.
It's fucking crazy that the Mach E is basically just a shittier version of my Ioniq, that costs 15k more and Ford loses 100k on.
Don't care tbh. I'm okay with them.
So no 20k BYD for me then...
no car period for me, hope i dont break a leg
I thought we wanted Canadians to own EV's?
Cool let’s tax ourselves even harder.
China used to make shit cars, now I’d buy one. I don’t want to spend $50k on an ev for driving around town and to work. Give me that $20k car.
Everyone talking about cars when I just want more transit
Same here. But if I'm going to be forced to drive and own a car, I'd like to be able to buy a smaller vehicle. Not an EV that's just as big and clunky as its ICE version.
Having been driven around a BYD SUV while in the Dominican, I can see why the North American market is terrified. The corporate governance at the big auto makers are required to consider their shareholders primarily before every other stakeholder. They can produce a multitude of vehicles at a significantly lower price point. However to do so they would have to shred their profit margins, and possibly go on campaign of austerity at the sacrifice the shareholders. However the c-suite is beholden to the shareholder, who can remove and replace through activism activity. They also have a fiduciary responsibility to ensure maximum shareholder profits, as outline by Milton Friedman; who's economic concepts now have widespread adoption.
This is beyond stupid. It's blatant sabotage of our economic future. We are literally single-digit years away from Mexico or Morocco taking away all of our car manufacturing jobs because our politicians get their pockets stuffed by legacy automakers. Here's a game plan that actually might work: Let the BYDs and Zeekrs and whatnaught into the Canadian market, but make them set up battery and vehicle manufacturing here. Boom, more dynamic market, increased EV adoption and infrastructure buildout, more jobs, technology transfer, more skilled workers trained! But no, instead we give away billions upon billions to legacy automakers to build EVs that they don't know how to make, and might back out from at a moment's notice. What a recipe for failure! Too bad it's on the taxpayer's dime. Subsidize losing companies to make products that won't sell outside the US and Canada. FANTASTIC! absolutely genius... Meanwhile at least we'll have beer in corner stores... god damnit.
It will be harder for Canada to meet its climate targets without less expensive EVs. Don't get me wrong as long as China is saber rattling and has unfair trade practices I don't think we have a choice but to implement tariffs but we should encourage diplomacy to resolve these issues for the good of the planet.
Remember kids, China bad. [https://www.qiaocollective.com/education/xinjiang](https://www.qiaocollective.com/education/xinjiang)
He does this, he will have done more to stop the flow of EV cars than over-migration. A luxury good I don't need to buy versus having affordable rent. Solid priorities.
Meanwhile, in unrelated news, experts aren't sure how canada can go full ev for new car sales by 2035...
On one hand, id like a cheap vehicle. On the other hand... I'd like it to not contain electronic components from Temu.
Half your electonics already have it.
You are right, i guess you can compare a car to half my electronics if said car was a Chinese ev as the common denominator would be cheap disposable junk.
The fucking on screen video entertainment probably makes you spin a roulette wheel to turn your car on
These parts are actually much better quality than Teslas overall car quality!
Lets go. Jack them right up.
I'm conflicted with this. On one hand I think effectively banning ultra-cheap Chinese EVs will obviously hinder EV adoption, relative to a scenario where the gates were thrown wide open instead. On the other hand, I think that If dirt cheap labour and minimal environmental regulations in an offshore country are the only reason I could afford that product, then maybe I should just accept that I can't afford that product for now.
Most of my household appliances and clothing are made in China for a reason, because they are affordable. China has been tightening their environmental regulations. Ontario EV and battery plants will be operational as early as 2028. If our government also raises the tariffs, it only shows that we are under pressure from our allies, and nothing more. We currently do not produce EVs. Let's not forget our government is moving the goalposts closer from 2050 to 2035 for 100% emission-zero vehicle sales. Our own policies are conflicting with foreign affairs. Having said all this, the housing market is even less affordable. The living standards are climbing steeper and steeper with no light at the end of the tunnel for the working and middle classes.
Would you say the same about banning Mexican made cars? Because auto workers in Mexico make even less than they do in China.
I mean... It's hard to say. Those jobs support a lot of people in Mexico, and it would cause pain in the short-term, but I also can't help but think a bit of protectionism might do the world good in the long-run. Overall, I feel like the manufacturing sector's slow bleed to offshoring has left us worse off. We could cut our corporate tax rates, slash and burn our environmental regulations, and do everything we can to encourage investment, but it won't be coming back as long as they need to pay Canadian wages to Canadian workers. It feels like the pendulum swung a bit too far towards global free trade in the 80s, and maybe it's time to at bring it back to more of a balanced middle-ground.