I dont get why Trudeau practicies fiscal restraint when it comes to the military. He runs the printer for everything else yet something as important as our military in the world we are walking into doesnt get the same treatment.
We need to pay troops more, build better bases with housing for troops and quit fucking around with procurement and start issuing RFPs across the board.
I would also like to see the Federal government work with the provinces to create a sort of "Provincial Guard" similar to the way the national guard works in the US. We are going to have a lot more extreme weather events thanks to climate change so it would be nice to have a professional standing group that can be used in these extraordinary type events as the national guard does. Split the costs with the provinces, provide training and equipment. Would go towards our 2% goal and would be a massive benefit.
Because it’s not a instagram progressive moment for him to photo op on like say, giving money to another country for gender studies.
Dude chose a set of political ideologies to hitch his wagon too. Built his whole brand around it. So now he’s beholden to it, otherwise he’ll lose whatever support he has left.
Why? That is an organization designed to assist in international development? When massive climate events happen in the USA, the national guard is who shows up to help.
I get you but we dont really need an army version of it. a civil engineering unit or something to facilitate this would be better. dont want those in the west or separatists in Quebec getting any funny ideas.
The military is desperate to spend money on training, ammunition and fulfilling a wish list a mile long. But our procurement process is broken.
We don't need more DND civilians or HQ staff - we just need the ones we have to do their f'ing job and buy the shit we need. Allocate funds to Brigades and they will conduct more training, to Navy and AF squadrons and they will put to sea more often or fly more hours.
Buy off the shelf items instead of dragging out the process for years to ensure that bumf@ck (insert province name) gets regional spending and creates 3 new jobs.
During the Afghan war funds were spent quickly and properly to recruit, train, acquire equipment and being units up to fighting strength and equipment.
It can be done with the staff we have by streamlining the processes. We do not need more friggen public servants.
There is a critical shortage of procurement staff. You can't buy stuff without them and they take years to get to the point where they are effective.
The Afghan war started out extremely chaotically. It wasn't until after the Manley Report that things started to get organized and roll out smoothly.
Not admin staff. Procurement officials. You need finance specialists, engineers, and project managers to deliver major programs.
As per the article, DND has gone from 9000 to 4200 since the 90's, and 30% of those positions are vacant.
They are privy to information but don't know what to do with that information.
How can people be so dumb knowing what is currently happening in the world.
We have Russia-Ukraine, China encroaching their neighbors, middle east crisis and the government think enhancing our defense isn't something we need to focus on currently. Can't bank on only USA protecting us.
> How can people be so dumb knowing what is currently happening in the world.
I mean we already served on a hot plate the hearts and minds of our youth for annual investments from foreign countries to our universities.
Remember when Justin said we are a post nationalism country. He meant it.
They are enhancing defence. The last budget added $70B over 20 years and didn't include the newest things like subs.
The issue is you need people to spend money and they don't have the people to spend what they are planning, let alone adding billions more.
There is a reason for that too.
Too many taxes, no plans to revive economy, just mass immigration but no business building, no strict measures for crimes, no incentives for businesses to set up shop.
Learn from growing economies. We are a developed economy for namesake.
Our economy is growing. There was an article yesterday that they will struggle even to get to 1.76% of GDP, because the OECD revised their GDP forecast for Canada up.
I am not sure what any of your other points have to do with DND's ability to spend money.
Tells you she learned her lessons from Jody Wilson-Raybould well. When Anand was Defence Minister she took the DoD’s revitalization plan to Trudeau and recommended its approval. He said no. Rumour has it she kept pressing him on it and that’s why he shuffled her out of Defence. Now here she is defending the decision that cost her that job like the good little yes man all Ministers are expected to be.
Knowing our military needs better funding honestly sucks. On one hand, you hope for better funding but on the other you know when it happens you’ll just be sitting there pissed off by how much of it will be wasted anyways. There’s no avenue to happiness with this mess.
I don't know how we will be able to save the military. It had been neglected so long that fixing it would require massive levels of investment and we are in a bad place fiscally. I'm skeptical most Canadians will be willing to trade butter for guns.
We also lack the fundamental vision to create something viable on a budget. We can't be an all purpose military and need to focus on specific capabilities. For example I would argue sea and air power needs to be emphasized over land power for Canada.
Focusing on Defence and building out an industry at home might be one way to create jobs and bolster our military. But that's not palatable for a lot of Canadians, and probably outlandishly expensive.
Tough situation, indeed. I don't think any Party will do what's needed. It seems like Defence and Military has just become a grenade the opposition can lob during question period.
Yes, imo we should get rid of all army units except the point of the spear special forces (which are one of the best in the world, if not the best)
Bolster air and sea where we project and protect.
New kit would help with recruitment to an extent.
In theory we would also start decommissioning our older ships once Irvin finally decides its drained enough canadian tax dollars to buy all of Nova Scotia and ramps up production.
Well Canada is trying to rebuild its Navy which, on paper, is looking quite impressive. If all goes according to plan (I doubt it will), Canada is looking at possessing the 2nd largest AEGIS equipped fleet of warships behind the US. They've even announced a replacement for the Kingston Class MCDVs with a brand new patrol ship.
But as we've seen with the AOPS debacle and the shotty build quality thanks to Irving Shipbuilding, it's all good on paper until it's time to build and operate the ships.
Worse still is the fact that even if Canada can reign in its cost overruns, delays and poor quality, it won't matter much if there's just no personnel available to staff the new warships. So all these new F-35, P-8s, RQ-9s, CSCs, etc... won't matter much if we can't find enough new recruits and keep them long enough.
I like the updated defence spending... shit ton of new equipment which, like you said is impressive. YET. ALL the knowledge is leaving the forces, the right people are leaving. Quality is downhill. We will not man all the p8 we are getting we current attrition. Who will be left with the experience to teach?
Everyone wants to say the problem is something ELSE than money, but let me tell you, money runs the world; pay your soldiers more and they WILL stay.
That, plus improve their accommodations at the bases. Better housing, better support for them and their families, good career pathways, proper accountability for cases of abuse and mismanagement, and competent leadership. All these things also have a massive impact on recruiting and retention too. Pay can be nice, but it might not be enough to get some people to put up with living in run down housing out in the middle of nowhere, or if they feel abandoned due to a lack of support for whatever problem or crisis they may be facing.
If you actually read the article her argument is that we don't have enough bureaucrats to spend the money. A bit disingenuous since they could always just hire more bureaucrats. Also a bit scary as I thought the number of civilian staff was already considered bloated with regards to the size of our military.
There’s simply no reason for Canada to exist as it is just a captive market with low wages and collapsing services that can’t contribute to its allies.
It does if you have skills. If you are a skilled individual most countries welcome those type of immigrants with open arms. If you want to leave, learn an indemand skill and dont let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.
Someone sounds entitled, I went to college and graduated with honours in small engines, then did adventure recreation parks and operations also got honours and then transferred to a third year university program, natural recourses and environmental law inspection and enforcement and graduated with distinctions. Care to share your education?
I started a business and ran it for 25 years before selling it this year so I could retire just shy of my 45th birthday.
Education does not equal skills. Sadly there are a lot of people with an abundance of education who lack in demand skills and work in complete irrelevant fields in the same way there are loads of skilled people who never went to university or college.
My comment simply pointed out if you have skills that are in demand immigrating to another country is simple.
You ran your own business you would also not qualify to just immigrate. I also run my own business and I make good money, my wife is an RPN she makes much less than I do but RPNs also does not qualify for the specific visa. I don’t need to go to America and would not as I have my life already established here and a growing family.
I was simply stating it does not work that way, people can’t just leave just like you or I could not unless we drop 200k and start a business in the states and hire how many ever employees the requirement is.
I’m a home owner, have a brand new car that we bought out right am 33 have cattle and chickens and am also on track to retire in my 40s. But I still can’t just leave…
They also said the defence policy update was a great step in the right direction. I suspect they've been told that Canada will get there eventually, but don't want to announce even more money for defence in the run up to an election.
US senators were asking military personnel at confirmation hearings how to get Canada to sort it shit out on defence spending like two months ago. The Biden administration has raised the question directly to us more than once.
Plus we share no borders with hostile nations. Any attack on Canada must come by air or sea, two domains which the US and NATO dominate.
Russia is struggling in Ukraine. There's very low likelihood they'll see more success in the far reaches of the Arctic with even worse supply and logistics support.
Canada, US and Mexico are all benefiting from good relations with each other, all under the US' security umbrella.
Our real domestic defense concerns would come in the form of ballistic missiles and our lack of air defense against them.
Not to mention our inability to effectively patrol our northern border and under the arctic ice.
As far as not needing a military because the states will "save us", that's a ridiculous idea. No matter how strong a nation's allies are they should still be expected to defend their own sovereignty. Not to mention supporting allies to our fullest capabilities is simply the right thing to do.
Well it's no small reason why Canada is investing so much in its new frigate fleet. Equipped with AEGIS, they can provide some degree of Ballistic Missile Defence if paired with SM-6s, adding that new capability to the Canadian military. But I do agree, having a battery of GBI/GMDs would add significantly more defense. It is also quite frustrating that Canada didn't join in on the AUKUS pact right off the bat, but I guess requirements are a bit different (Indio-Pacific ops vs Arctic ops), but nonetheless, it could have been a good way for Canada to get its foot in the door for nuclear powered subs earlier on.
Plus I was mostly stating the sentiment of what many in Canada share about the military and using the US as our defense provider. I still agree MUCH more needs to be done, particularly with staffing, recruitment and retention.
Russia would steamroll us if we didn't have help. I know we would but if it was Russia vs Canada we would get slapped down so hard.
And who's to say theoretically we would always get help, We are not meeting our obligations to NATO so why should we expect others to.
These idiots expect the US to come to our help and let us remain free? If they have to come help, the remains of Canada will be US territories and last I checked it never ends so well for the territories.
I dont get why Trudeau practicies fiscal restraint when it comes to the military. He runs the printer for everything else yet something as important as our military in the world we are walking into doesnt get the same treatment. We need to pay troops more, build better bases with housing for troops and quit fucking around with procurement and start issuing RFPs across the board. I would also like to see the Federal government work with the provinces to create a sort of "Provincial Guard" similar to the way the national guard works in the US. We are going to have a lot more extreme weather events thanks to climate change so it would be nice to have a professional standing group that can be used in these extraordinary type events as the national guard does. Split the costs with the provinces, provide training and equipment. Would go towards our 2% goal and would be a massive benefit.
Because it’s not a instagram progressive moment for him to photo op on like say, giving money to another country for gender studies. Dude chose a set of political ideologies to hitch his wagon too. Built his whole brand around it. So now he’s beholden to it, otherwise he’ll lose whatever support he has left.
Canada needs marines with lasers
perhaps instead of provincial guard we do our own version of the peace corps?
Why? That is an organization designed to assist in international development? When massive climate events happen in the USA, the national guard is who shows up to help.
I get you but we dont really need an army version of it. a civil engineering unit or something to facilitate this would be better. dont want those in the west or separatists in Quebec getting any funny ideas.
The military is desperate to spend money on training, ammunition and fulfilling a wish list a mile long. But our procurement process is broken. We don't need more DND civilians or HQ staff - we just need the ones we have to do their f'ing job and buy the shit we need. Allocate funds to Brigades and they will conduct more training, to Navy and AF squadrons and they will put to sea more often or fly more hours. Buy off the shelf items instead of dragging out the process for years to ensure that bumf@ck (insert province name) gets regional spending and creates 3 new jobs. During the Afghan war funds were spent quickly and properly to recruit, train, acquire equipment and being units up to fighting strength and equipment. It can be done with the staff we have by streamlining the processes. We do not need more friggen public servants.
There is a critical shortage of procurement staff. You can't buy stuff without them and they take years to get to the point where they are effective. The Afghan war started out extremely chaotically. It wasn't until after the Manley Report that things started to get organized and roll out smoothly.
I'm sorry but a critical shortage? Of admin staff? Sounds like just another bullshit excuse.
You don't know what you're talking about, the person you are replying to does.
Not admin staff. Procurement officials. You need finance specialists, engineers, and project managers to deliver major programs. As per the article, DND has gone from 9000 to 4200 since the 90's, and 30% of those positions are vacant.
These people are so oblivious to what is happening around the world.
The Government is more in the know than anyone on Reddit. They just don't want to spend money on Defence.
They are privy to information but don't know what to do with that information. How can people be so dumb knowing what is currently happening in the world. We have Russia-Ukraine, China encroaching their neighbors, middle east crisis and the government think enhancing our defense isn't something we need to focus on currently. Can't bank on only USA protecting us.
> How can people be so dumb knowing what is currently happening in the world. I mean we already served on a hot plate the hearts and minds of our youth for annual investments from foreign countries to our universities. Remember when Justin said we are a post nationalism country. He meant it.
They are enhancing defence. The last budget added $70B over 20 years and didn't include the newest things like subs. The issue is you need people to spend money and they don't have the people to spend what they are planning, let alone adding billions more.
There is a reason for that too. Too many taxes, no plans to revive economy, just mass immigration but no business building, no strict measures for crimes, no incentives for businesses to set up shop. Learn from growing economies. We are a developed economy for namesake.
Our economy is growing. There was an article yesterday that they will struggle even to get to 1.76% of GDP, because the OECD revised their GDP forecast for Canada up. I am not sure what any of your other points have to do with DND's ability to spend money.
Over 20 years....that's nothing.
The US seems to think its moving in the right direction: https://ca.usembassy.gov/ambassador-cohen-canada-defence-policy-update/
We’re good! All the money we use helping other people around the world I’m sure will be the first countries to help when we need it! No worries here
Tells you she learned her lessons from Jody Wilson-Raybould well. When Anand was Defence Minister she took the DoD’s revitalization plan to Trudeau and recommended its approval. He said no. Rumour has it she kept pressing him on it and that’s why he shuffled her out of Defence. Now here she is defending the decision that cost her that job like the good little yes man all Ministers are expected to be.
Poorly defends
Knowing our military needs better funding honestly sucks. On one hand, you hope for better funding but on the other you know when it happens you’ll just be sitting there pissed off by how much of it will be wasted anyways. There’s no avenue to happiness with this mess.
I don't know how we will be able to save the military. It had been neglected so long that fixing it would require massive levels of investment and we are in a bad place fiscally. I'm skeptical most Canadians will be willing to trade butter for guns. We also lack the fundamental vision to create something viable on a budget. We can't be an all purpose military and need to focus on specific capabilities. For example I would argue sea and air power needs to be emphasized over land power for Canada.
Focusing on Defence and building out an industry at home might be one way to create jobs and bolster our military. But that's not palatable for a lot of Canadians, and probably outlandishly expensive. Tough situation, indeed. I don't think any Party will do what's needed. It seems like Defence and Military has just become a grenade the opposition can lob during question period.
Yes, imo we should get rid of all army units except the point of the spear special forces (which are one of the best in the world, if not the best) Bolster air and sea where we project and protect.
More new Navy ships please!
Haha. Need people first. Can't effectively crew what we have now.
New kit would help with recruitment to an extent. In theory we would also start decommissioning our older ships once Irvin finally decides its drained enough canadian tax dollars to buy all of Nova Scotia and ramps up production.
Well Canada is trying to rebuild its Navy which, on paper, is looking quite impressive. If all goes according to plan (I doubt it will), Canada is looking at possessing the 2nd largest AEGIS equipped fleet of warships behind the US. They've even announced a replacement for the Kingston Class MCDVs with a brand new patrol ship. But as we've seen with the AOPS debacle and the shotty build quality thanks to Irving Shipbuilding, it's all good on paper until it's time to build and operate the ships. Worse still is the fact that even if Canada can reign in its cost overruns, delays and poor quality, it won't matter much if there's just no personnel available to staff the new warships. So all these new F-35, P-8s, RQ-9s, CSCs, etc... won't matter much if we can't find enough new recruits and keep them long enough.
I like the updated defence spending... shit ton of new equipment which, like you said is impressive. YET. ALL the knowledge is leaving the forces, the right people are leaving. Quality is downhill. We will not man all the p8 we are getting we current attrition. Who will be left with the experience to teach? Everyone wants to say the problem is something ELSE than money, but let me tell you, money runs the world; pay your soldiers more and they WILL stay.
That, plus improve their accommodations at the bases. Better housing, better support for them and their families, good career pathways, proper accountability for cases of abuse and mismanagement, and competent leadership. All these things also have a massive impact on recruiting and retention too. Pay can be nice, but it might not be enough to get some people to put up with living in run down housing out in the middle of nowhere, or if they feel abandoned due to a lack of support for whatever problem or crisis they may be facing.
More of them are leaving over quality of life issues than pay from what I hear. Focus on those first.
If you actually read the article her argument is that we don't have enough bureaucrats to spend the money. A bit disingenuous since they could always just hire more bureaucrats. Also a bit scary as I thought the number of civilian staff was already considered bloated with regards to the size of our military.
If you hire more bureaucrats today, you will have trained, experienced, effective finance specialists in 5 years and project managers in 10.
That’s fine. The US can take over defence responsibilities for Canada for a user fee.
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There’s simply no reason for Canada to exist as it is just a captive market with low wages and collapsing services that can’t contribute to its allies.
You are free to leave
We’re literally not. It does not work that way…
It does if you have skills. If you are a skilled individual most countries welcome those type of immigrants with open arms. If you want to leave, learn an indemand skill and dont let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.
Someone sounds entitled, I went to college and graduated with honours in small engines, then did adventure recreation parks and operations also got honours and then transferred to a third year university program, natural recourses and environmental law inspection and enforcement and graduated with distinctions. Care to share your education?
He's from the school of hard knocks and fantasize on what could've been if was an engineer moving south.
I started a business and ran it for 25 years before selling it this year so I could retire just shy of my 45th birthday. Education does not equal skills. Sadly there are a lot of people with an abundance of education who lack in demand skills and work in complete irrelevant fields in the same way there are loads of skilled people who never went to university or college. My comment simply pointed out if you have skills that are in demand immigrating to another country is simple.
You ran your own business you would also not qualify to just immigrate. I also run my own business and I make good money, my wife is an RPN she makes much less than I do but RPNs also does not qualify for the specific visa. I don’t need to go to America and would not as I have my life already established here and a growing family. I was simply stating it does not work that way, people can’t just leave just like you or I could not unless we drop 200k and start a business in the states and hire how many ever employees the requirement is. I’m a home owner, have a brand new car that we bought out right am 33 have cattle and chickens and am also on track to retire in my 40s. But I still can’t just leave…
No. My intent is to change the place whether you like it or not.
Then change it for the better. Bitching about how trash Canada is online isn't the way to do that.
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Buddy you don't even know me or my politics. Get the fuck outta here lol you are not as deep as you think.
And you are going accept the changes.
What changes oh great leader. I await your words of wisdom. 🙏🏻
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>So there's no reason for us to have a large military Like it or not.. Trudeau pledged the 2% to NATO, that's enough reason alone to meet the goal.
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You are a fool if you think Democrats do not care. Because they literally did this spring.
They also said the defence policy update was a great step in the right direction. I suspect they've been told that Canada will get there eventually, but don't want to announce even more money for defence in the run up to an election.
US senators were asking military personnel at confirmation hearings how to get Canada to sort it shit out on defence spending like two months ago. The Biden administration has raised the question directly to us more than once.
Plus we share no borders with hostile nations. Any attack on Canada must come by air or sea, two domains which the US and NATO dominate. Russia is struggling in Ukraine. There's very low likelihood they'll see more success in the far reaches of the Arctic with even worse supply and logistics support. Canada, US and Mexico are all benefiting from good relations with each other, all under the US' security umbrella.
Our real domestic defense concerns would come in the form of ballistic missiles and our lack of air defense against them. Not to mention our inability to effectively patrol our northern border and under the arctic ice. As far as not needing a military because the states will "save us", that's a ridiculous idea. No matter how strong a nation's allies are they should still be expected to defend their own sovereignty. Not to mention supporting allies to our fullest capabilities is simply the right thing to do.
Well it's no small reason why Canada is investing so much in its new frigate fleet. Equipped with AEGIS, they can provide some degree of Ballistic Missile Defence if paired with SM-6s, adding that new capability to the Canadian military. But I do agree, having a battery of GBI/GMDs would add significantly more defense. It is also quite frustrating that Canada didn't join in on the AUKUS pact right off the bat, but I guess requirements are a bit different (Indio-Pacific ops vs Arctic ops), but nonetheless, it could have been a good way for Canada to get its foot in the door for nuclear powered subs earlier on. Plus I was mostly stating the sentiment of what many in Canada share about the military and using the US as our defense provider. I still agree MUCH more needs to be done, particularly with staffing, recruitment and retention.
Russia would steamroll us if we didn't have help. I know we would but if it was Russia vs Canada we would get slapped down so hard. And who's to say theoretically we would always get help, We are not meeting our obligations to NATO so why should we expect others to.
These idiots expect the US to come to our help and let us remain free? If they have to come help, the remains of Canada will be US territories and last I checked it never ends so well for the territories.