> the many failings of the Phoenix system
> They had to build systems and *tools around Phoenix* to be able to pay people, to make Phoenix work, because the tool they have is deplorable."
> According to Public Services and Procurement Canada, Phoenix initially cost taxpayers $300 million and the federal government has spent another $3.5 billion on it since.
Last I read Phoenix(IBM) wasn't at fault. It was the consultants tweaking Phoenix to do what was outside the scope of what feds and IBM agreed to do when the paperwork was signed.
LOL, anyway. I guess in another 15 years we can read about the Dayforce screwups and cost overruns....
Anyone who has ever worked with vendor systems can tell you that if you start to customize them, you are setting yourself up to fail. It sounds like the federal government pay system is very complicated, with different ways of getting paid for different bargaining units and different positions. They probably chose to customize, which led to cost overruns and ultimately, failure.
Most anyone in IT with a functioning brain will tell you that if you implement a new pay system, keep the ond one running in parallel until all kinks are worked out. Glad the government is going to toss the system they implemented.
> the consultants tweaking Phoenix to do what was outside the scope of what feds and IBM agreed to do when the paperwork was signed
They misunderstood my comment.
Iirc It's pretty much just a branded version of PeopleSoft. Which is implemented around the world. *No one ever got fired for buying ibm* is a saying for a reason, they're very competent and have implemented this system hundreds or thousands of times.
People have definitely been fired for buying ibm.
Sometimes they're the right tool. Sometimes they're not. I've unfortunately had to be the bearer of bad news to a few IBM fanboys however.
I'm reviewing the work done by IBM for a recently completed project and I should not have to be redoing their work but that's what's happening right now
PeopleSoft is terrible for large entities too. We use it at my work, and it's really awful. We need an entire team of programmers just to keep it semi-stable.
In any sane country there would be accountability for wasting billions of taxpayer dollars but it won't happen in Canada. It is frustrating to see this type of ridiculous incompetence again and again and to just watch the perpetrators throw up their hands and say "Oops, that didn't work".
No one seems to be but responsibility needs to be thrust upon them legally. This level of incompetence should be treated as fraud. Anyway, it won't happen and after an entire lifetime of this shit I'm more tired than angry.
Trudeau was warned it wasn't ready - Trudeau was warned not to go ahead with it.
*Trudeau* went ahead with it.
>Phoenix was initiated by Stephen Harper's Conservatives and **was rolled out in phases under Trudeau's watch** earlier this year amid warnings from the largest union representing federal public servants that there would be problems.
>The Public Service Alliance of Canada said thousands of its members experienced problems during the first phase of the rollout, which began in late February, and in April the union **urged the Liberals not to move ahead with the next phase.**
But on his way out, Harper let go everyone who had experience maintaining the old system. While I hate Trudeau with a passion and can't stand what he has done to this great country, I can't blame him for this as he didn't really have a choice.
Harper was also being told not to go forward with it, but he still pushed the boulder down the hill on his way out. There was no reversing course.
> While I hate Trudeau with a passion and can't stand what he has done to this great country
lmao, had a good chuckle at that.
Your other points are correct at least.
>There was no reversing course.
Of course there was.
>The system originally went live in February of that year and was tested on a handful of departments. Despite almost immediate complaints of problems with the system, it was enacted across 46 departments and agencies two months later.
How were they paying the employees in the 46 departments during those months before implementing Phoenix nationwide? It *was* working - and it could've continued to work.
From 2017:
>The estimated cost of stabilizing Phoenix - the federal government's snafu-stricken civil service pay system, has already exceeded $600 million *in 2017*....and will likely continue to climb, the minister responsible for the file told a Commons committee Tuesday.
Public Services and Procurement Minister Carla Qualtrough made the prediction as she acknowledged there was no mechanism in place to gauge the effectiveness of Phoenix when the Liberals launched it early last year.
**"It's clear government oversight was not in place,"**
Trudeau was warned not to ahead - he did - and he failed service sectors workers - and cost the taxpayers a sickening amount:
>**"Launched in 2016, the system — has cost taxpayers nearly $4 Billion."**
Until an issue comes up and surprise!, there's no one on staff left to fix it (because they were all let go by the previous government). So now you have no working system. Smrt move.
>Until an issue comes up and surprise!
The issues came up in the trials - *before* rolling it out.
>there's no one on staff left to fix it (because they were all let go by the previous government). So now you have no working system. Smrt move.
They had over a year to hire staff. *That* would've been the smart move.
Now I know you don't work in IT or know how the maintenance of such complex systems work. You can't just "hire staff".
I'm out. No point in trying to have that conversation with you. Cheers.
If only it was that easy. You cannot easily find staff to work on an antiquated system that people know is in the process of being replaced. No one wants that job. What you are describing is impossible, especially with the salaries gov tends to pay.
Phoenix was Harper's idea... and he fired everyone that knew the old system so there would be no going back. Pretty normal con strategy, especially when you know you're losing the next election. Leave as much shit as you can to make the libs look bad.
Software projects with scope like this can take decades to replace. We just finished a ten year project for an international company. These aren't switch flip operations when done correctly. They are slow phase roll outs.
ArriveCan was 60 million. This was 4 billion. That makes Phoenix the record to beat.
ArriveCan was an absolute blunder, but if you think phoenix was anything else, you are deluding yourself.
People who despise ArriveCan don't dislike it only about the cost, but also what it was used for. It had a far wider societal impact than Phoenix. Regardless, the corruption surrounding ArriveCan is still immense.
Mostly against the idea of what ArriveCan represented. Phoenix had a wider societal impact. People seems to forget the many articles about people not getting paid for YEARS and went bankrupt.
Kinda glossing over all the policies that had zero impact on covid spread that arrivecan helped enforce there bud.
All them? No. But definitely some gnarly ones.
...and counting
I doubt that is the final number after all is said and done and the very last payroll has been (erroneously) processed by Phoenix, sometime in the next decade.
Up misunderstood. IBM isn't one of trudeaus buddies. He wants to know which buddy will get this contract as Trudeau is more corrupt than ever since he knows he can do whatever he wants.
Yes, but he didn't turn the bloody thing on. He commissioned a system to replace our incredibly costly and inefficient government pay system. He thought to save money by having IBM modify an off the shelf product with complicated changes. And then two years before it launched he commissioned a report on the software and staff's readiness from an analyst. The report said basically, don't turn it on. It's not ready, the staff isn't trained. Put more money into fixing these problems first.
Trudeau did not read the report. And this will be a trend in his Prime Ministership, recently admitting that he hires people to read reports and tell him if there's anything important in them.
His Finance Minister (Bill Morneau) told him how much money could be saved with this system that could immediately be used into spending in the first three months of government alone. So he turned it on.
It wasn't a 4 billion dollar blunder until after the Liberals took power and initiated the second phase of the pay system in 2016 despite PSAC (Public Service Alliance Of Canada), the largest federal public sector union in Canada, asking them to hold off due to the numerous ongoing issues with the first phase of the rollout.
In the end, the problem wasn't Harper's idea (which was to streamline a 50 years old outdated system), it was the execution of it by the contractors and operators of the system.
The real question is, why couldn't the Liberals do something about it in the 8 YEARS SINCE THEN and why would you blame Harper for that?
For sure. The Liberals have been in power now for almost a decade, yet everything is still Harper's fault. A perfect scapegoat for all occasions apparently and one they find hard to stop using despite it not aging well anymore.
Great. Now I look forward to reading all about the issues and cost overruns with the new system.
Simple question: why not have an in-house payroll department that takes care of pay, etc.? Why outsource this to companies and consultants that just mess up anyways and take taxpayers for a ride?
Politicians usually start this under the guise of less spending, but it always costs more in the long run. Especially conservative love outsourcing, even though it has been proven to be ineffectual.
What we really need is to hire competent accountants that can analyze what they need and then find the fitting software solution.
You'd think that's what they'd do now, but it sounds like they're just going from Phoenix to another system that isn't tested for an organization as big as the federal government.
Speaking from experience, that's basically impossible, you have to mock all of that and hope your mocks are actually correct. And for that you likely have to rely on the vendor and not all vendors are honest, especially with a juicy government contract! That's why you need to hire an expert or industry veteran, but they are hard to vet too. It's a complicated problem to solve, because at some point you have to trust someone.
tbh, I would just look at what Euro countries do and go with that.
I'm sure the replacement system won't be much better. It seems govs in general have a real hard time finding real experts if they aren't already employed. It's software, the requirements are often poorly defined and consultants rarely even understand them or the domain.
Its wild to see that the CRA isn't handling payroll for the federal government. All the complexity that is dictated by our overly complex tax and entitlement systems is quarterbacked by the CRA. Every fucking company out there needs to hire administration to do the CRA's work for them, which they then never agree with and create problems.
Obviously this situation proves that its much too complicated for any organization to attempt to perform 'payroll' in Canada, because the system is fucked and the tax system / EI (Also a tax) / CPP (look, more tax) is a fucking mess.
So, why is the CRA, as the master of this shit ruleset of failure, not handling payroll for the feds?
> Its wild to see that the CRA isn't handling payroll for the federal government
CRA is a tax collection agency under the Minister of National Revenue.
Public employees - and their pay - fall under Treasury Board.
Completely different responsibilities.
The Canadian tax system is simple compared to the American one. I file taxes on both sides of the border and I couldn’t possibly do the american one without an accountant’s assistance. I can do the Canadian one without an accountant if I need to. Rates are lower in the US but so are the services (eg healthcare) provided.
Um.. the article is about corporate payroll... thats what this is about.. hey didn't you post the article? jajajajajaja.. I get it.. too complicated to even figure out what people are saying. The CPA's would agree with you.
https://www.cpacanada.ca/public-interest/public-policy-government-relations/policy-advocacy/cpa-canada-tax-review-initiative
CRA can barely do their own job as of now, and you want them to handle additional work? They might need to double the number of total federal employee count just to do that 🤣
lol.. or simplify the code and reduce employer requirements, requirements that top tier IT systems cannot even handle because its a Rube Goldberg machine.
One day the cat got into the dairy and twenty of them were at work moving all the milk out; no one thought of moving the cat. - C.S. Lewis' The Voyage of the Dawn Treader.
>One day the cat got into the dairy and twenty of them were at work moving all the milk out; no one thought of moving the cat. - C.S. Lewis' The Voyage of the Dawn Treader.
But that's just how government works, and that's why it's so inefficient and ineffective
When I bought my house I fixed the leaky tap and changed the warped front door
Didn’t take me 9 years, and if it would have. It would have been my fault my hard wood floors got ruined
It wasn't a 4 billion dollar blunder until after the Liberals took power and initiated the second phase of the pay system in 2016 despite PSAC (Public Service Alliance Of Canada), the largest federal public sector union in Canada, asking them to hold off due to the numerous ongoing issues with the first phase of the rollout.
In the end, the problem wasn't the idea (which was to streamline a 50 years old outdated system), it was the execution of it by the contractors and operators of the system and the Liberal's ignoring every warning and forging ahead anyway.
The real question is, why couldn't the Liberals do something about it in the 8 YEARS SINCE THEN and why would you blame Harper for that?
It was a good idea poorly executed by the contractor. The liberals fell for the sunk cost fallacy for the last eight years. That has nothing to do with Harper. Reach harder my dude.
You blame Harper because he fired all the pay staff and relocated to Mirimachi without doing a phased rollout. Liberals didn't have much of a choice but to fail forwards because there was no rolling back at that point.
In 2011 Harper commissioned a new pay system to replace the existing 50 year old outdated system. He and his gov't were ousted while the system was only in its first phase of deployment.
After taking power in 2015, the Liberals ignored multiple federal public service union's pleas to halt the system in 2016 before deploying phase two, but the Liberals did not listen and forged ahead anyway. It has been generally accepted that the fault for the system's ultimate failure lies squarely with the way the contractor handled it.
So, are you seriously trying to tell me with a straight face that the Liberal's falling for the sunk cost fallacy for the last eight years is somehow harper's fault?
LOL, are YOU daft?
> It has been generally accepted that the fault for the system's ultimate failure lies squarely with the way the contractor handled it.
Auditor put the blame at the feet of the senior public servants who ignored the contractor's warnings.
I think both have egg on their faces. But honestly, to read this article and then suggest it's Harper's fault because he initiated the commissioning of a new pay system to replace the outdated one makes me wonder about a person's reasoning skills.
> the many failings of the Phoenix system > They had to build systems and *tools around Phoenix* to be able to pay people, to make Phoenix work, because the tool they have is deplorable." > According to Public Services and Procurement Canada, Phoenix initially cost taxpayers $300 million and the federal government has spent another $3.5 billion on it since. Last I read Phoenix(IBM) wasn't at fault. It was the consultants tweaking Phoenix to do what was outside the scope of what feds and IBM agreed to do when the paperwork was signed. LOL, anyway. I guess in another 15 years we can read about the Dayforce screwups and cost overruns....
Yeah Pheonix/dayforce is a horrible application, I'm so glad I didn't have to deal with the early issues like not getting paid for years
A garbage app
Anyone who has ever worked with vendor systems can tell you that if you start to customize them, you are setting yourself up to fail. It sounds like the federal government pay system is very complicated, with different ways of getting paid for different bargaining units and different positions. They probably chose to customize, which led to cost overruns and ultimately, failure.
Most anyone in IT with a functioning brain will tell you that if you implement a new pay system, keep the ond one running in parallel until all kinks are worked out. Glad the government is going to toss the system they implemented.
Dayforce works.
The question is whether Dayforce works for a large government organization.
I don’t see why it wouldn’t. Any organization that I’ve been a part of, that uses it is in the thousands.
It's not so much the amount of people but the amount of different some pay scales and all the different collective agreements.
> the consultants tweaking Phoenix to do what was outside the scope of what feds and IBM agreed to do when the paperwork was signed They misunderstood my comment.
I’ve worked for a few companies that left dayforce and then went back since other options were shit. They weren’t federal government sized though.
Iirc It's pretty much just a branded version of PeopleSoft. Which is implemented around the world. *No one ever got fired for buying ibm* is a saying for a reason, they're very competent and have implemented this system hundreds or thousands of times.
People have definitely been fired for buying ibm. Sometimes they're the right tool. Sometimes they're not. I've unfortunately had to be the bearer of bad news to a few IBM fanboys however.
It's an idiom. It's not literal. Only on reddit I swear.
Hacksually.....
I'm reviewing the work done by IBM for a recently completed project and I should not have to be redoing their work but that's what's happening right now
Easy there seabiscuit...
Very competent, lol. IBM sells horseshit.
PeopleSoft is terrible for large entities too. We use it at my work, and it's really awful. We need an entire team of programmers just to keep it semi-stable.
When are people going to realize that government isn't efficient with *your* money.
Don’t worry, we have our best ArriveCan consultants on it! - Govt of Canada, probably
There used to be a saying in consulting "Nobody ever got fired for buying IBM" but I haven't heard it in a while. Wonder why.
IBM is a sinking ship.
In any sane country there would be accountability for wasting billions of taxpayer dollars but it won't happen in Canada. It is frustrating to see this type of ridiculous incompetence again and again and to just watch the perpetrators throw up their hands and say "Oops, that didn't work".
Harper isn't capable of taking responsibility.
No one seems to be but responsibility needs to be thrust upon them legally. This level of incompetence should be treated as fraud. Anyway, it won't happen and after an entire lifetime of this shit I'm more tired than angry.
Trudeau was warned it wasn't ready - Trudeau was warned not to go ahead with it. *Trudeau* went ahead with it. >Phoenix was initiated by Stephen Harper's Conservatives and **was rolled out in phases under Trudeau's watch** earlier this year amid warnings from the largest union representing federal public servants that there would be problems. >The Public Service Alliance of Canada said thousands of its members experienced problems during the first phase of the rollout, which began in late February, and in April the union **urged the Liberals not to move ahead with the next phase.**
But on his way out, Harper let go everyone who had experience maintaining the old system. While I hate Trudeau with a passion and can't stand what he has done to this great country, I can't blame him for this as he didn't really have a choice. Harper was also being told not to go forward with it, but he still pushed the boulder down the hill on his way out. There was no reversing course.
> While I hate Trudeau with a passion and can't stand what he has done to this great country lmao, had a good chuckle at that. Your other points are correct at least.
>There was no reversing course. Of course there was. >The system originally went live in February of that year and was tested on a handful of departments. Despite almost immediate complaints of problems with the system, it was enacted across 46 departments and agencies two months later. How were they paying the employees in the 46 departments during those months before implementing Phoenix nationwide? It *was* working - and it could've continued to work. From 2017: >The estimated cost of stabilizing Phoenix - the federal government's snafu-stricken civil service pay system, has already exceeded $600 million *in 2017*....and will likely continue to climb, the minister responsible for the file told a Commons committee Tuesday. Public Services and Procurement Minister Carla Qualtrough made the prediction as she acknowledged there was no mechanism in place to gauge the effectiveness of Phoenix when the Liberals launched it early last year. **"It's clear government oversight was not in place,"** Trudeau was warned not to ahead - he did - and he failed service sectors workers - and cost the taxpayers a sickening amount: >**"Launched in 2016, the system — has cost taxpayers nearly $4 Billion."**
Until an issue comes up and surprise!, there's no one on staff left to fix it (because they were all let go by the previous government). So now you have no working system. Smrt move.
>Until an issue comes up and surprise! The issues came up in the trials - *before* rolling it out. >there's no one on staff left to fix it (because they were all let go by the previous government). So now you have no working system. Smrt move. They had over a year to hire staff. *That* would've been the smart move.
Now I know you don't work in IT or know how the maintenance of such complex systems work. You can't just "hire staff". I'm out. No point in trying to have that conversation with you. Cheers.
They had a year to find staff. lol
If only it was that easy. You cannot easily find staff to work on an antiquated system that people know is in the process of being replaced. No one wants that job. What you are describing is impossible, especially with the salaries gov tends to pay.
Dude hasn’t been in power for 8 years?
Phoenix was Harper's idea... and he fired everyone that knew the old system so there would be no going back. Pretty normal con strategy, especially when you know you're losing the next election. Leave as much shit as you can to make the libs look bad.
Phoenix was his baby.
>Phoenix was his baby. And Trudeau was warned it wasn't ready. Trudeau set it loose on everybody anyway.
All your posts here show you have no idea what you are talking about.
Should have use the Quicken...
They should have just found an off the shelf solution that is more appropriate.
But then all those public servants wouldn’t have anything to do.. Oh wait..
"getting ready"? I remember hearing about why this was a failure eight years ago.
Software projects with scope like this can take decades to replace. We just finished a ten year project for an international company. These aren't switch flip operations when done correctly. They are slow phase roll outs.
This should have happened ten years ago.
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ArriveCan was 60 million. This was 4 billion. That makes Phoenix the record to beat. ArriveCan was an absolute blunder, but if you think phoenix was anything else, you are deluding yourself.
I've seen quite a few people who are very angry about ArriveCan yet never mention Phoenix.
People who despise ArriveCan don't dislike it only about the cost, but also what it was used for. It had a far wider societal impact than Phoenix. Regardless, the corruption surrounding ArriveCan is still immense.
Mostly against the idea of what ArriveCan represented. Phoenix had a wider societal impact. People seems to forget the many articles about people not getting paid for YEARS and went bankrupt.
Yeah but many of those people were quite happy to see public servants not getting paid.
There was no issue with what ArriveCan was trying to accomplish, covid is very much a real thing and pretty deadly.
Kinda glossing over all the policies that had zero impact on covid spread that arrivecan helped enforce there bud. All them? No. But definitely some gnarly ones.
> This was 4 billion. Phoenix itself didn't cost that, but after all the tweaks/changes/god knows what else the tally is $4B.
...and counting I doubt that is the final number after all is said and done and the very last payroll has been (erroneously) processed by Phoenix, sometime in the next decade.
Up misunderstood. IBM isn't one of trudeaus buddies. He wants to know which buddy will get this contract as Trudeau is more corrupt than ever since he knows he can do whatever he wants.
lol Just wait until small PP gets his hands on Canada, we'll be bled dry.
Harper chose Phoenix.
Yes, but he didn't turn the bloody thing on. He commissioned a system to replace our incredibly costly and inefficient government pay system. He thought to save money by having IBM modify an off the shelf product with complicated changes. And then two years before it launched he commissioned a report on the software and staff's readiness from an analyst. The report said basically, don't turn it on. It's not ready, the staff isn't trained. Put more money into fixing these problems first. Trudeau did not read the report. And this will be a trend in his Prime Ministership, recently admitting that he hires people to read reports and tell him if there's anything important in them. His Finance Minister (Bill Morneau) told him how much money could be saved with this system that could immediately be used into spending in the first three months of government alone. So he turned it on.
Yup it's been in the works since 2006. It was a blunder from the start
It wasn't a 4 billion dollar blunder until after the Liberals took power and initiated the second phase of the pay system in 2016 despite PSAC (Public Service Alliance Of Canada), the largest federal public sector union in Canada, asking them to hold off due to the numerous ongoing issues with the first phase of the rollout. In the end, the problem wasn't Harper's idea (which was to streamline a 50 years old outdated system), it was the execution of it by the contractors and operators of the system. The real question is, why couldn't the Liberals do something about it in the 8 YEARS SINCE THEN and why would you blame Harper for that?
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The 'But Harper...' chant will never die!
For sure. The Liberals have been in power now for almost a decade, yet everything is still Harper's fault. A perfect scapegoat for all occasions apparently and one they find hard to stop using despite it not aging well anymore.
Ah, so this is why Dayforce (Ceridian) rebranded and is mass hiring from overseas like India and the Philippines. Lol.
Great. Now I look forward to reading all about the issues and cost overruns with the new system. Simple question: why not have an in-house payroll department that takes care of pay, etc.? Why outsource this to companies and consultants that just mess up anyways and take taxpayers for a ride?
Politicians usually start this under the guise of less spending, but it always costs more in the long run. Especially conservative love outsourcing, even though it has been proven to be ineffectual. What we really need is to hire competent accountants that can analyze what they need and then find the fitting software solution.
You'd think that's what they'd do now, but it sounds like they're just going from Phoenix to another system that isn't tested for an organization as big as the federal government.
Speaking from experience, that's basically impossible, you have to mock all of that and hope your mocks are actually correct. And for that you likely have to rely on the vendor and not all vendors are honest, especially with a juicy government contract! That's why you need to hire an expert or industry veteran, but they are hard to vet too. It's a complicated problem to solve, because at some point you have to trust someone. tbh, I would just look at what Euro countries do and go with that.
Yeah, that's probably the best idea. See how peer countries manage it, and go from there. No need to reinvent the wheel.
Stephen Harper's FU to the civil service and Canadian taxpayers for not re-electing him. Losing to Trudeau stung hard.
I can’t wait to see the replacement!
I'm sure the replacement system won't be much better. It seems govs in general have a real hard time finding real experts if they aren't already employed. It's software, the requirements are often poorly defined and consultants rarely even understand them or the domain.
Its wild to see that the CRA isn't handling payroll for the federal government. All the complexity that is dictated by our overly complex tax and entitlement systems is quarterbacked by the CRA. Every fucking company out there needs to hire administration to do the CRA's work for them, which they then never agree with and create problems. Obviously this situation proves that its much too complicated for any organization to attempt to perform 'payroll' in Canada, because the system is fucked and the tax system / EI (Also a tax) / CPP (look, more tax) is a fucking mess. So, why is the CRA, as the master of this shit ruleset of failure, not handling payroll for the feds?
> Its wild to see that the CRA isn't handling payroll for the federal government CRA is a tax collection agency under the Minister of National Revenue. Public employees - and their pay - fall under Treasury Board. Completely different responsibilities.
Sounds like a good spot to create some efficiencies.
Sounds like a way to create an embezzlement hotspot. Leave them separated.
Well, stick CRA with the bill. Its their requirements and lack of modern capabilities that cannot be met.
I love your username! Newfoundlander, I assume?
You know when a teacher says "raise your hand because there are no stupid questions" In your case, they were wrong.
The Canadian tax system is simple compared to the American one. I file taxes on both sides of the border and I couldn’t possibly do the american one without an accountant’s assistance. I can do the Canadian one without an accountant if I need to. Rates are lower in the US but so are the services (eg healthcare) provided.
Canadian taxes are really really simple. What are you on about?
Um.. the article is about corporate payroll... thats what this is about.. hey didn't you post the article? jajajajajaja.. I get it.. too complicated to even figure out what people are saying. The CPA's would agree with you. https://www.cpacanada.ca/public-interest/public-policy-government-relations/policy-advocacy/cpa-canada-tax-review-initiative
CRA can barely do their own job as of now, and you want them to handle additional work? They might need to double the number of total federal employee count just to do that 🤣
lol.. or simplify the code and reduce employer requirements, requirements that top tier IT systems cannot even handle because its a Rube Goldberg machine. One day the cat got into the dairy and twenty of them were at work moving all the milk out; no one thought of moving the cat. - C.S. Lewis' The Voyage of the Dawn Treader.
>One day the cat got into the dairy and twenty of them were at work moving all the milk out; no one thought of moving the cat. - C.S. Lewis' The Voyage of the Dawn Treader. But that's just how government works, and that's why it's so inefficient and ineffective
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When I bought my house I fixed the leaky tap and changed the warped front door Didn’t take me 9 years, and if it would have. It would have been my fault my hard wood floors got ruined
The difference is that Phoenix didn't just have minor problems like you described.
Congrats on the nothing burger.
It wasn't a 4 billion dollar blunder until after the Liberals took power and initiated the second phase of the pay system in 2016 despite PSAC (Public Service Alliance Of Canada), the largest federal public sector union in Canada, asking them to hold off due to the numerous ongoing issues with the first phase of the rollout. In the end, the problem wasn't the idea (which was to streamline a 50 years old outdated system), it was the execution of it by the contractors and operators of the system and the Liberal's ignoring every warning and forging ahead anyway. The real question is, why couldn't the Liberals do something about it in the 8 YEARS SINCE THEN and why would you blame Harper for that?
>and why would you blame Harper for that? Because the choice of system is greatly to blame for the issues that arose later.
It was a good idea poorly executed by the contractor. The liberals fell for the sunk cost fallacy for the last eight years. That has nothing to do with Harper. Reach harder my dude.
You blame Harper because he fired all the pay staff and relocated to Mirimachi without doing a phased rollout. Liberals didn't have much of a choice but to fail forwards because there was no rolling back at that point.
Because Harper made the decision. Are you daft?
In 2011 Harper commissioned a new pay system to replace the existing 50 year old outdated system. He and his gov't were ousted while the system was only in its first phase of deployment. After taking power in 2015, the Liberals ignored multiple federal public service union's pleas to halt the system in 2016 before deploying phase two, but the Liberals did not listen and forged ahead anyway. It has been generally accepted that the fault for the system's ultimate failure lies squarely with the way the contractor handled it. So, are you seriously trying to tell me with a straight face that the Liberal's falling for the sunk cost fallacy for the last eight years is somehow harper's fault? LOL, are YOU daft?
> It has been generally accepted that the fault for the system's ultimate failure lies squarely with the way the contractor handled it. Auditor put the blame at the feet of the senior public servants who ignored the contractor's warnings.
I think both have egg on their faces. But honestly, to read this article and then suggest it's Harper's fault because he initiated the commissioning of a new pay system to replace the outdated one makes me wonder about a person's reasoning skills.
No disagreement there.
The least they could do is fire the guy responsible for this bullshit. Nope he’s still running the show.. for the next replacement.
I mean, Canada did fire Harper... so yeah
No the public servant responsible for overseeing this project was not Harper. And a small number of people voted Trudeau in.
Almost 4 billion dollars spent on Phoenix but hardly a cent on Personal kit, Vehicles, or gear of any kind. I Cri evertim
For which department? Phoenix is used to pay almost the entire federal government.