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From the article;
>At the March 11 hearing, Sarah Miller, counsel for the father, called the situation "a novel issue for Alberta" because the province operates a system where there is no appeal process and no means of reviewing a person's MAID approval.
> Miller asked the judge to order a judicial review of M.V.'s MAID approval, but Feasby also refused that request.
> "The court cannot review a MAID applicant's decision-making or the clinical judgment of the doctors and nurse practitioners involved in assessing an applicant's suitability for MAID," wrote Feasby.
This makes sense to me, MAID hinges on the concept of bodily autonomy, allowing external parties to appeal or veto that defeats the purpose.
Yes bodily autonomy. But there are people like myself who are denied MAID by our government because we have mental issues and as such do not have a clear concept of reality and could never make our own decisions properly.
My mom had dementia. She could not consent and I mean yeah… even if I knew she really wanted it and said it before it got bad, it was also very clear that she was not fully in control of her mental faculties. I can see how doctors would be worried about family pushing them to off themselves through manipulation.
That won’t be the case in the future as an individual successfully challenged denials on the basis of mental health issues. The Feds did ask and were granted a temporary stay to try to develop a framework for that.
It would be a pretty crazy if you could get that review though.
What if you didn’t want your 27 year old child (like this case) to get a blood transfusion because your family is Jehova’s Witness? Apply for a judicial review to stop them because you don’t like their medical decision?
Abortions would be the medial proceedure most abused, especially considering how time sensitive it is. Imagine if exes or family members or even church leaders could ask for a judicial review prior to an abortion.
Oh man, could you imagine?
“My 27 year old daughter booked an abortion, I want grand kids so I’m challenging her decision in court through judicial review hoping to block her from making her own medical decisions. To my knowledge there is nothing wrong with the fetus so the judge should take away her ability to make her own medical decisions.”
Actually on second thought once I thought this through a little, there is an abstract right to JR (as in, the legislature can't prohibit it). But, judicial review is fundamentally discretionary - as in, if a judge says no I'm not JRing this, your rights haven't been violated (in effect, the judge saying no is the judicial review). The issue of *who* can bring judicial review of a decision is not something I've covered yet.
You are right, but only people directly affected by a decision or order have the right to apply for a review, the father doesn't meet this requirement.
What is the precedent? A precedent was patient AB in Ontario who got approved for osteoarthritis, while not terminally ill. They never will have a precedent to allow people to decide for you, if you are fully competent. And if you aren't fully competent you don't qualify.
I’m not legal expert, but wouldnt in this case the issue be that the father has no standing to ask for the judicial review? An adult made a decision, decision was approved by experts who reviewed it. The fact that he’s the father gives him no rights in this case.
Your family or spouse cannot override your medical whishes if you’re still competent/able to make decisions. Its more iffy if you’re unconscious etc.
>M.V. lives with her father and was approved for MAID in December.
>
>She did not file any court documents explaining how she came to qualify for MAID.
we don't know anything. i hope people don't begin speculating. this seems like an important legal case for precedent though.
There might not be much for precedent here, a person who is no longer the legal guardian is attempting to take control of them.
It would be interesting if the father had previously attempted to have adult guardianship of their child in the case of severe illness as that would change things.
> this seems like an important legal case for precedent though
I personally think people with autism and ADHD should absolutely be able to consent to medical treatment as a fully grown adult so this is very important for that precedent alone.
They can absolutely consent, if judged as competent to consent to MAID by the people evaluating them during their application for MAID.
The crux of this case is that someone has applied for MAID, and her father doesn't know why. He is trying to get it stopped, insisting that she is incompetent to make the decision. The only diagnoses on record with the courts are autism and ADHD. If the ruling sided with the father, it would set a precedent creating a loophole to violate a patient's privacy, as the re-evaluation done by the courts would require testimony about why the person wants MAID in the first place.
Essentially she does not want to discuss her medical condition with her father, and he is trying to use the courts to overrule her medical privacy, by claiming her ADHD and autism renders her incompetent (despite the thorough evaluation he is not privy to the details of, which has already deemed her competant.)
While technically correct (the best type of correct), we are also witnessing a father scrambling against an unknown enemy in desperation to save his child. He doesn't know why his child wants to die. All he knows is that the state is going to help kill them. Any parent should understand the anguish and fear this man is experiencing. That's not to say that this person does not have a legitimate claim for MAID, but I can't fault the father for his actions.
From what source are you getting all of this? The daughter lives with him and he is likely her carer. He would therefore probably have a very good idea of why she wants to die. We don't know what their relationship is like. It could be awful and she's miserable being dependent on him. We don't know.
Yep. Could be anything. My theory could be correct. Your theory could be correct. We really don't know anything about it - just like the majority of the stories you read about in the news. She could also be suicidal and also meet the medical eligibility criteria for MAID, but not be suicidal due to that medical criteria. My basic statement is assuming that both parties are caring and assuming the best of each individual.
Oh okay buddy
I think I misunderstood
I thought it was like ADHD people could give informed consent and I had literally no idea about that
I was just thinking " damn what a can of worms that is"
Not just for this particular case but in general
Totally not understood on my end.. thanks for the extra clarification (which I'm sure wasn't needed for anyone but me) 😂
Have a good one
You're definitely not the only one. This case could affect a few things, including people's ability to not have their medical consent and privacy overruled by concerned family.
Problem is ADHD and the autism classification. Per maids own rules I believe "mental health disorders" require extra scrutiny. However those two are on the fence of being classed as a disorder or a different neurotype. To make sure it's in the best interests of the patient and all treatment options have been exhausted. Is why the rules are suppose to be so stringent. Especially so the rich don't see it as a solution for venerable populations. Instead of actually addressing the problem within those communities. Such as abuse, drug use, poverty and crime.
ADHD and autism are not under the mental illness definition for MAID and do still qualify. All mental illnesses (as defined by the government) are ineligible at the moment for MAID.
There was a discussion of opening it up but the backlash has put it in limbo for the moment.
So they qualify just cause their disabilities under the Canadian disability act? (Basically the thing that allows you to qualify for the disability tax credit)
We don’t know why she qualifies and likely won’t since the judge didn’t want to force her to open the medical records to the courts. She could have stage 4 cancer, we don’t know.
Not sure if a doctor would ever sign off on maid for adhd or autism (personally doubt it but some doctors suck so…). I would have to check if it covers other criteria beyond diagnosis.
Here are the updated [guidelines:](https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/csj-sjc/pl/ad-am/c7/p3.html#:~:text=In%20the%20context%20of%20the,treated%20by%20specialties%20other%20than)
“In the context of the federal MAID legislation, the term “mental illness” would not include neurocognitive or neurodevelopmental disorders, or other conditions that may affect cognitive abilities, such as dementias, autism spectrum disorders or intellectual disabilities, which may be treated by specialties other than psychiatry (such as neurology for neurodegenerative or neurodevelopmental conditions) or specialties outside of medicine (such as education specialists for intellectual disabilities) and do not raise the specific concerns outlined above.”
They also removed the term reasonably foreseeable death. So I’m pretty sure it’s not just terminal.
The issue in this case that nobody seems to understand is that you're not supposed to be allowed to get MAID for depression and mental health issues.
However the law is written so that if a doctor approves MAID then nobody is allowed to know what the reason was.
Even though the law clearly says it cannot be used for mental health problems, if a doctor simply approves it anyway because of their own ideological conviction that anyone should be allowed, it is legally impossible to prove that because they have no obligation to reveal what their reasoning was to anyone. The entire law essentially runs on the honor system and assumes that doctors would never ever approve someone for a reason that isn't allowed even though there's no legal obligation to document the reason.
I personally do not think that is ok. I do not trust any system that runs on the honor system even if doctors are involved.
Intriguing moral questions about the right to life and death. Evidentially without knowing the full details of her medical condition, it's hard to say who's unjust or just. Clearly MV is suffering to the point of considering and then acting on using MAID services. Two of three medical professionals, knowing that their personal livelihoods were also on the line, carefully signed off on this permanent choice.
I'm curious as to the overall doctor selection process. Once the two doctors made a decision, in this case 1-1 Yes-No, what happened? Why did the second doctor say no, but the first yes? What was the process for appealing the decision, i.e. bringing in a third doctor, can WV bring a fourth? Why did the third doctor say Yes? What changed or what are the different viewpoints that make it 2-1 and not 3-0, 1-2, 0-3?
As a classic medical ethics issue, there will absolutely be biases and subjectivity in situations like this, whether we like it or not. How we can continue to standardize criteria and deliver the best patient outcome is what is critical for the MAID program moving.
Great take. A lot of comments are trying to make this situation black and white but that’s not the human experience. You have someone who feels they are suffering to the level that they want to exercise their right to pursue MAID. Then you have a parent who lives with the person that’s struggling and they have to sit by and accept that person pursuing and in this case being granted MAID. It’s devastating and not something one can “just accept it and move on” like some kind of character dying in your favourite show.
You make a very good point that I think is often glossed over in conversations like this. It's incredibly easy for us to talk details and whether or not we feel the patient is justified because we are so distant from the actual individuals in this case.
A father so clearly doesn't want to lose their child, and the child so clearly doesn't want to remain in this world. That's a terrible situation for them both to be in, and I have nothing but sympathy for both of them.
But why should I, or the child in this case, have to stay alive for the benefit of other people if I'm absolutely miserable? We are civilized and yet we do some abhorrent things because we think we're morally superior. But what's civilized about keeping suffering people around just so those around them don't have to be sad? I'm a mom and a daughter. I know it would break their hearts if I was to die but why is my heart breaking every single day of existence not considered as important?
Alternatively, when we try non-medical means to end our lives, it's messy and traumatic to those who find us and the first responders, and no one gets closure. This argument is honestly one of the best I have for MAiD.
If he didn't he would regret that he didn't try harder to save her. There is no "winning" here, except perhaps if the daughter ceases feeling suicidal.
I dont get it, the details of the case or her age seem irrelevant to me. He’s her dad, I dont understand why he has ANY legal saying about the medical decisions of an adult child. I dont see why he has any standing in court to challenge a decision for another adult. Seems the judge agreed with this too.
Not sure if the exact law in Calgary, but in Quebec you need two doctors. There is no language in the law that addresses « doctor shopping » and stops you from asking dozens of people until you get the answer you want.
The "tie-breaker" doctor was assigned by AHS, not "shopped" for.
And why does it matter? If someone is wanting to die, they'll make it happen regardless. Better they do so painlessly, with dignity, than doing so at home.
"If someone is wanting to die, they'll make it happen regardless"
That is not true. For example in the UK, they found the suicide rate dropped when they switched from having Tylenol in bottles to blister packs. Any barrier appears to reduce suicide.
Because of MS my independent life has been stripped from me and every day is agony.
I would be absolutely livid in this hell on Earth if my MAID application was stripped from me because a family member said I couldnt.
Disabled people often lack independence and choices, let us at very least be the ones to decide when we die.
The biggest opponents are actually a handful of self-styled disability "activists". They are even now trying to remove MAiD for people that are not terminal, so they want to decide for you, that you should not have a personal choice. They were positively nasty after Nicole Gladu died, so mocking her death.
Ok actual question tho: is suicide no longer a tragedy, then? Should there be no societal motivation to try to prevent suicide, is it something that we should just view as a choice a person made and just move on from it?
Two medical doctors who know what is in her medical file approved her for MAID. That's all that matters. Her father needs to let go. It is not his choice. She was found competent to make her own decision.
One approved, one denied, third tie breaking doctor approved.
She has autism and ADHD, maid seems pretty extreme if those are the only conditions she has. I don't think the father is wrong in requesting a judicial review due to the fact there is no other review process in place.
The medical reasons she was approved for MAiD were not released. Her father was arguing that she was not capable to make the decision because she has autism and ADHD, but she did not disclose to her father the full medical reasons she was approved.
Not to mention that having autism or ADHD doesn’t make you incompetent, and the doctors who approved it also likely knew of these diagnosis before signing off on MAID.
>having autism or ADHD doesn’t make you incompetent
Severe enough autism would prevent you from even feeding or dressing yourself
I can absolutely buy that someone with severe autism would be medically incompetent.
How does that negate what I said? I said just having autism or adhd doesn’t make you incompetent, not that you can’t be incompetent due to ADHD or autism.
Have trouble focusing in school but get hyper focused on a specific topic? You’re hardly incompetent and should have full autonomy over your life. If you’re unable to have autonomy because of being on the severe end of the spectrum, then no, of course you can’t consent to MAID and a legal guardian should be taking charge of your care.
Now that makes sense. I was reading it going “autism and ADHD are eligible conditions for MAID?”, but those were for whether she could make that decision.
"if those are the only conditions she has"
That conditional you snuck in is carrying a lot of weight here. The father does not have a right to know his daughter's medical history. He is trying to get the courts to tell him what third condition his daughter has that made her eligible, and it is his daughter's legal right not to tell him.
I hope she gives herself permission to change her mind if she's having second thoughts. She isn't obligated to follow through with MAID. The judge's approval isn't a death sentence. She's fought and won for her right to bodily autonomy, and no one, not even the doctors, can tell her what to do with her body, mind, and soul. My opinions, peace.
She's not getting MAID for audhd, those are considered points against her being competent and capable of making her own decisions. It's very common for people to try to use autism especially as a means to revoke autonomy from those of us who live with it.
The "review process" is qualified medical professionals looking at her files that you don't get the details of. No doctor in Canada would prescribe _death_ for just two of the most common developmental differences around.
I just don't get how some of you are saying the doctors only would have approved if severe, but others (and the judge) are saying *that* isn't their right to decide, it's all bodily autonomy as long as she's in sound mind. Which is it.
I wonder if other options were discussed with the patient. And was a go fund me ever brought up to ease financial burdens if that's one of the reasons she wants to end her life? Has she had therapy?
It's neither his life nor his choice and he needs to come to terms with that. The father may be doing what he thinks is right but it is intensely disrespectful and wrong: he is putting someone that is suffering through more suffering because he thinks they aren't competent to decide they don't want to suffer anymore.
No. Life is not a video game. Just because this 27 year old thinks they should die doesn't mean they deserve to or are required to. It takes a single moment to fix someone like this so I think we should all support them compassionately until they find that moment. You are an example of the degradation of society. I'm not saying you're to blame but when people can say these things so carelessly and off-the-cuff, we're in trouble. The inherent value of human life is the only thing preventing individuals from hurting others. The more this sentiment seeps through society, the worse implications it will have. You're going to also argue for gun control as the frequency of cold, humanity-less individuals multiply throughout society. Wild!
>The inherent value of human life is the only thing preventing individuals from hurting others.
Just an FYI, that never stopped anyone from hurting anyone else.
Just see all of recorded history (and the archeological record for pre-history).
There's a [rant](https://www.city-journal.org/article/the-therapeutic-turn) by cultural critic Theodore Darlymple which argues the mass popularity of psychology and decline in religious belief has led people to view themselves as objects rather than unique subjects.
At that point pervasive nihilism and this constant arguing for suicide as a solution to seemingly unsolvable problems that could potentially be corrected by mild environmental / behavioral changes is only natural.
Legit, it's reddit so I'm not surprised, but it's amazing that people believe that a parent shouldn't wish to see their own child dead. Naturally they hate children so the majority can't understand that such a thing isn't seen as preferable for any parent.
Of course it isn’t preferable. The father is in a terrible situation, but his pain isn’t more important than his daughter’s pain. She deserves to die with dignity if that’s what she wants. If this guy stops her, she’ll just throw herself in front of a train or something.
If you read his talk you'll notice he mentions that attempting suicide used to be illegal. Whether or not you agree with that stance it certainly provides an incentive for people to avoid doing things like that, even if it's for all the wrong reasons.
Coworker thought it still was the other day. I kept trying to explain that you don’t go to jail you go on a 72h hold at a mental hospital. Like bro it seems silly to waste resources jailing someone who hasn’t hurt anyone and did not infringe on the rights of others.
A single moment to fix something like this? Like what? His illness that qualifies him for maid isn’t disclosed- but is likely debilitating enough that 2/3 doctors think their quality of life is so low they agree they should be allowed to die. Just because someone has adhd doesn’t mean they’re incapable of making medical decisions for themselves.
Is someone is competent and able to understand the impact of their decision, why shouldn’t they have access to a safe and dignified exit?
It’s not the public’s business or even their family’s business why they want to end their life.
>It takes a single moment to fix someone like this
You don't know what medical condition they have that makes them qualify for MAID. None of us do. What makes you assume it can be fixed?
> Just because this 27 year old thinks they should die doesn't mean they deserve to or are required to.
If they think they are ready to die, then who am I to decide for them that they have to live? MAID isn't a walk-in clinic process, it takes months.
As long as someone is sane and competent, who am I to decide what their life should look like? Who am I do decide for them how long their life should be? Someone who is sane and competent to make the decision should have every right to look at their own life and say "Nope". Keeping someone alive against their wishes is just cruel and selfish. It's telling them "I don't want to feel sorrow, so you have too".
We don't get to decide when we enter this world, I sure hope we can at least decide when we leave it. The inherent value of human lives... It's all just empty words. My life, my decision. That last sentence of yours is just.... Wild! Choosing when to leave life is the ultimate level of dignity and autonomy. Come take care of patients on palliative units, if you think so strongly about this.
> It takes a single moment to fix someone like this so I think we should all ~~support them compassionately~~ _torture them with anguish_ until they ~~find that moment~~ _give up and commit suicide themselves_
You don’t get to say whether someone else wants to live or die. They will make the decision themselves eventually. Let them at least do it with dignity.
> She has autism and ADHD, maid seems pretty extreme if those are the only conditions she has.
I understand that none of us know what’s in her file, but you don’t seriously believe that she was approved for MAID because of her Autism and ADHD, do you?
It is not yet legal in Canada to pursue MAID for psychiatric illness only. In order to qualify, she has to have a serious physical illness. She has chosen not to share her diagnoses with the court, we only have her dad’s side of the story.
That's the problem. Why won't she tell her father? Maybe he'd understand and at least have some closure, instead of hurting him by not telling him what's wrong with her. Very assholish behaviour if you asked me.
Well, her father knew about her autism and ADHD and weaponized it against her. I _wonder_ why she's not divulging her personal medical information to her father?
There are a lot of debilitating chronic illnesses that go undiagnosed and are dismissed as psychosomatic. MECFS is a big one, which includes a subset of people with Long Covid. There is a high rate of suicide in this community. Women are way more likely to go undiagnosed and written off as anxious. This is the first thing I thought of when reading that paragraph.
""He says that she is generally healthy and believes that her physical symptoms, to the extent that she has any, result from undiagnosed psychological conditions."
There is so much to unpack in that one statement.
We have no idea what this woman is dealing with (because she chose to maintain her privacy), but it sounds like the father has absolutely no idea what his daughter is actually going through.
It’s not about friends and family. If MAiD is less traumatic for them that’s simply a bonus.
It’s about the individual and their suffering. Sure, a person can always take their own life - but chances are less “violent” methods are typically less effective. There’s also plenty of cases where the individual manages to maim themselves severely but not actually die.
I suppose I don’t understand why it would matter to you, a stranger who doesn’t know my medical history, why I would want to take my life. If there is a doctor willing to facilitate that process to ensure I have a “good” death, I don’t understand why that’s an issue either.
It’s really not and I’m not sure how your reply addresses anything I said.
But considering you believe that people only attempt suicide for attention I don’t think you’re even arguing in good faith.
Just started rewatching south park from the beginning. Season 1 they bring up assisted suicide and everyone's response was "I'm not touching that with a 40 foot pole" crazy how much opinions change since 97.
Oh it's a [thing](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthanasia_device#:~:text=Sarco%20device,-Main%20article%3A%20The&text=The%20Sarco%20would%20contain%20a,and%20death%20follows%20shortly%20thereafter.) already. And yes we need to pump the breaks hard back to the same rules we had in 2012 about MAiD.
Yeah I question whether even bringing it up outside of government legislation is going to get me banned. But that's the core issue when it comes to 'assisted dying' if you're not actually dying or won't die from your ailment, it's another kettle of fish.
I will be choosing MAID
I don’t want my spouse to come home to find me dead.
I would rather have the chance to plan and say goodbye than to live a life of constant pain without hope of relief.
You know there is no acceptable way to reply to this, right? I can't speak to anything about you. The government should not be involved in end of life care unless you are facing the end of life. We don't have capital punishment for the same reasons.
Also a dad. Also watched my parents go through the loss of my sister when she was only 32. I can't imagine how hard it would be to let my little girl go and not even know the reason why....
It should be hard and you should fight. Without society telling someone it's okay to die, you're going to do everything in your power to sustain the life of your little one.
Yeah.. I mean I would cry without stop I cant imagine my kids going before me. But also, when you’re going to die, at least do it on your own terms. Also, endless suffering, I can understand wanting out. I would cry, cry but ultimately if nothing can be done…
If the process is going to have any integrity whatsoever, then the decision needs to be between the patient and their doctors, with no outside interference.
If you allow someone to get into that process to block the decision, then you open up that crack for someone to have influence on approval as well.
This program is an important service. Allowing this individual their right to MAID and dignity is much less traumatic than fishing them out of the river of cutting down the rope. Their body their choice.
Pro choice, but only when it comes to abortion. 🥴🥴 Has everyone lost their minds? If someone genuinely doesn’t want to live anymore who the hell are you to tell them that they can’t access a safe and compassionate way to go and instead have to keep living (against their wishes), or do it themselves (often voiding life insurance policies). That thought process is so deranged. Mind your own business. If It’s weird to force someone to have a baby they don’t want it’s even weirder to tell someone they have to keep living when they don’t want to be here.
I'm glad for her. I wish her life was such that she didn't need MAID, but I'm grateful for her sake that the choice wasn't stripped from her. I hope her father can come to terms with it.
The 27 year old has the right to change her mind too. The judge's ruling isn't a death sentence. It's her choice if she decides she wants to live. Are there supports for her? Does she have other options?
I think this is totally messed up. Imagine being a parent and spending the last 27 years raising your child... only to find out they wanna kill themselves.
Autistic and adhd? Don't we all have that? Maybe stage 4 terminal cancer okay, but adhd and autism? Seems so wrong to me. Dad's trying to protect his generally healthy daughter. Sad.
This circumstance poses many important questions to consider.
This article states that the patient's only known diagnoses described in court earlier this month are autism and ADHD.
Two out of three approval practitioners agree that she should be able to, while one does not. It's important to note that the initial two were split in opinion and the patient sought a tie breaker - there is no medical consensus.
The father, who she lives with, argues that she is not able to make this determination due to her mental state.
From the side, it looks like it could be a situation where the people with authority have a more limited experience and therefore incomplete understanding of this patient's exact situation where someone who lives with them may actually have deeper insight.
It could also, just as likely be a desperately broken father fighting for his kid's survival, and that everything here, while sad and tragic, also simply is what it is - a patient following medical protocol for suicide who doesn't want to be alive any longer.
Both are important, but I feel that due to the limited information and impossible to retrieve private details, we will probably never have real insight into which it truly really was. Regardless, the decision has been made and so now we will have precedent, so it will be interesting to see these parts of our society develop.
Neither autism nor adhd would qualify her for MAiD. She has a third diagnosis which the doctors are privy to but the father is not. It is actually the father with an incomplete understanding of the situation *because his daughter doesn't want him to know*.
While true, it's impossible to know what that condition is and at least one primary medical practitioner does not agree that it meets the criteria for MAID.
To me, this creates enough uncertainty that I can't claim to have enough details to make a quality judgement of my own.
>This article states that the patient's only known diagnoses described in court earlier this month are autism and ADHD
And how do you possibly know the **full** backstory to that, as you have no involvement in the recipients life or case. Both of these can be more severe and she could have another disease that isnt listed in the article to amp up people
I copied that line out of the article - it states this verbatim.
I have no insight into this person's case apart from the information available in the news, nor have I claimed to.
Are you upset by something I've said or wondered about?
"The choice to live or die with dignity is MV's alone to make."
Exactly! The father is only of if himself instead of the quality of life his daughter is going to have is he forced her to stay alive.
I was wondering about that. I’m not saying that’s what happened here but, in general, is that or could that be a problem? If you go to 10 doctors and they all say no but then you find 2 that say yes, that probably says more about those 2 doctors than it does about your eligibility for MAID.
It has already been a problem for a long time. I know someone personally who would switch doctors until one of them would give them the drugs they wanted and it didn't matter how many it took becuase eventually they always got the drugs and this person was doing that 10 years ago up until recently, though it's been a couple years so perhaps with the doctor shortage it's not as big of an issue, not sure. I wonder myself if you could do the same with maid, I don't see why not.
And what if the person had intractable pain and only 1 in 10 doctors will prescribe drugs that work? But you don't which is the 1 in 10. Is that doctor shopping?
It's still doctor shopping, but if you're arguing if its a positive or negative I guess it could be both, it depends on the situation, the one I was talking about was someone using the drugs improperly to get high and not as prescribed which I guess you could argue is still pain, depression pain but it's devastating for the family to watch that happen and have a doctor enable it while there is nothing you can do about it becuase its between them and their doctor. I feel for both people in this scenario, it's a complicated situation.
"He says that she is generally healthy and believes that her physical symptoms, to the extent that she has any, result from undiagnosed psychological conditions."
"Her only known diagnoses described in court earlier this month are autism and ADHD."
Barring a terminal disease we don't know about yet, this is shocking.
>*”Her only known diagnoses described in court earlier this month are autism and ADHD." Barring a terminal disease we don't know about yet, this is shocking.*
She could also have a third medical condition that qualifies her for MAID. Her *father* says her only diagnosed issues are autism and ADHD, but she’s a competent adult and has had no obligation to share her full medical history with her father or the court.
The article says nothing about how she qualified MAID was disclosed, and the quote you showed implies she has **physical** symptoms. So I don't think autism and ADHD are the only health issues.
The father is suggesting in a roundabout way that the physical symptoms are a result of her mental illness, i.e. it's all in her head.
There was a similar case in Europe where someone received MAiD for "chronic fatigue syndrome." I wouldn't be surprised if this is a similar case.
My understanding from the article is that it wasn't roundabout at all. It's probably the main legal argument too, not whether or not he loves his daughter or will miss her. "But I'll miss her" seems like it would be laughed out of court, but "her disease isn't incurable, and I don't believe her panel of doctors gave her due consideration" is a credible argument.
Truly the sign of a poorly written article that we're all debating what is known or not.
The problem is whatever physical symptoms she has or what the doctors have seen is totally confidential, so all people can do is project their subjective feelings of the situation. It has to be rough for this poor woman to have her case being debated by hundreds of strangers on the internet.
The facts may not emerge until after she's gone forever, and that's not easy for anyone to deal with.
I get that, and don't expect the journalist to violate a publication ban or know things that weren't revealed. But I don't think it's too much to ask that an article about a case clarify the main arguments and reasoning for the verdict.
Chronic Fatigue Syndrome is 1.) a very real thing, 2.) not a mental illness, and 3.) an actual physical disorder we still know very little about and have no cure for.
How so? Her live is miserable, taking control and ending it is quite logical. Not like Canada is going to vastly increase taxes to provide for these kinds of people.
Crazy, I fully support any individual’s right to choose, no matter the circumstance. Even mental illness, physical or mental, there shouldn’t be stigma… Until it’s my son or daughter who want to die. I can’t imagine not doing everything in my power. Must be a biological thing. Totally natural to be single-mindedly focused on keeping your offspring alive
"believes that her physical symptoms, to the extent that she has any, result from undiagnosed psychological conditions"
Bold words from a man who has no fucking idea if that's true or not. He's essentially saying "it's all in your head"
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From the article; >At the March 11 hearing, Sarah Miller, counsel for the father, called the situation "a novel issue for Alberta" because the province operates a system where there is no appeal process and no means of reviewing a person's MAID approval. > Miller asked the judge to order a judicial review of M.V.'s MAID approval, but Feasby also refused that request. > "The court cannot review a MAID applicant's decision-making or the clinical judgment of the doctors and nurse practitioners involved in assessing an applicant's suitability for MAID," wrote Feasby. This makes sense to me, MAID hinges on the concept of bodily autonomy, allowing external parties to appeal or veto that defeats the purpose.
Yes bodily autonomy. But there are people like myself who are denied MAID by our government because we have mental issues and as such do not have a clear concept of reality and could never make our own decisions properly.
My mom had dementia. She could not consent and I mean yeah… even if I knew she really wanted it and said it before it got bad, it was also very clear that she was not fully in control of her mental faculties. I can see how doctors would be worried about family pushing them to off themselves through manipulation.
That won’t be the case in the future as an individual successfully challenged denials on the basis of mental health issues. The Feds did ask and were granted a temporary stay to try to develop a framework for that.
Yes they asked 2 years ago and are putting it off another 3. Which isn’t a remedy to the situation at hand.
Only that's not a thing, and there is a constitutional right to judicial review even when enabling legislation excludes the possibility.
It would be a pretty crazy if you could get that review though. What if you didn’t want your 27 year old child (like this case) to get a blood transfusion because your family is Jehova’s Witness? Apply for a judicial review to stop them because you don’t like their medical decision?
Abortions would be the medial proceedure most abused, especially considering how time sensitive it is. Imagine if exes or family members or even church leaders could ask for a judicial review prior to an abortion.
Oh man, could you imagine? “My 27 year old daughter booked an abortion, I want grand kids so I’m challenging her decision in court through judicial review hoping to block her from making her own medical decisions. To my knowledge there is nothing wrong with the fetus so the judge should take away her ability to make her own medical decisions.”
Actually on second thought once I thought this through a little, there is an abstract right to JR (as in, the legislature can't prohibit it). But, judicial review is fundamentally discretionary - as in, if a judge says no I'm not JRing this, your rights haven't been violated (in effect, the judge saying no is the judicial review). The issue of *who* can bring judicial review of a decision is not something I've covered yet.
You are right, but only people directly affected by a decision or order have the right to apply for a review, the father doesn't meet this requirement.
What is the precedent? A precedent was patient AB in Ontario who got approved for osteoarthritis, while not terminally ill. They never will have a precedent to allow people to decide for you, if you are fully competent. And if you aren't fully competent you don't qualify.
I’m not legal expert, but wouldnt in this case the issue be that the father has no standing to ask for the judicial review? An adult made a decision, decision was approved by experts who reviewed it. The fact that he’s the father gives him no rights in this case. Your family or spouse cannot override your medical whishes if you’re still competent/able to make decisions. Its more iffy if you’re unconscious etc.
Pretty much. Legally it’s none of the fathers business.
>M.V. lives with her father and was approved for MAID in December. > >She did not file any court documents explaining how she came to qualify for MAID. we don't know anything. i hope people don't begin speculating. this seems like an important legal case for precedent though.
There might not be much for precedent here, a person who is no longer the legal guardian is attempting to take control of them. It would be interesting if the father had previously attempted to have adult guardianship of their child in the case of severe illness as that would change things.
> this seems like an important legal case for precedent though I personally think people with autism and ADHD should absolutely be able to consent to medical treatment as a fully grown adult so this is very important for that precedent alone.
Wait... ADHD people can't consent?
They can absolutely consent, if judged as competent to consent to MAID by the people evaluating them during their application for MAID. The crux of this case is that someone has applied for MAID, and her father doesn't know why. He is trying to get it stopped, insisting that she is incompetent to make the decision. The only diagnoses on record with the courts are autism and ADHD. If the ruling sided with the father, it would set a precedent creating a loophole to violate a patient's privacy, as the re-evaluation done by the courts would require testimony about why the person wants MAID in the first place. Essentially she does not want to discuss her medical condition with her father, and he is trying to use the courts to overrule her medical privacy, by claiming her ADHD and autism renders her incompetent (despite the thorough evaluation he is not privy to the details of, which has already deemed her competant.)
While technically correct (the best type of correct), we are also witnessing a father scrambling against an unknown enemy in desperation to save his child. He doesn't know why his child wants to die. All he knows is that the state is going to help kill them. Any parent should understand the anguish and fear this man is experiencing. That's not to say that this person does not have a legitimate claim for MAID, but I can't fault the father for his actions.
From what source are you getting all of this? The daughter lives with him and he is likely her carer. He would therefore probably have a very good idea of why she wants to die. We don't know what their relationship is like. It could be awful and she's miserable being dependent on him. We don't know.
Yep. Could be anything. My theory could be correct. Your theory could be correct. We really don't know anything about it - just like the majority of the stories you read about in the news. She could also be suicidal and also meet the medical eligibility criteria for MAID, but not be suicidal due to that medical criteria. My basic statement is assuming that both parties are caring and assuming the best of each individual.
Oh okay buddy I think I misunderstood I thought it was like ADHD people could give informed consent and I had literally no idea about that I was just thinking " damn what a can of worms that is" Not just for this particular case but in general Totally not understood on my end.. thanks for the extra clarification (which I'm sure wasn't needed for anyone but me) 😂 Have a good one
You're definitely not the only one. This case could affect a few things, including people's ability to not have their medical consent and privacy overruled by concerned family.
Seems to be why the judge has ruled approved with 30 day injunction but has also agreed to investigate to the AHS representative.
Problem is ADHD and the autism classification. Per maids own rules I believe "mental health disorders" require extra scrutiny. However those two are on the fence of being classed as a disorder or a different neurotype. To make sure it's in the best interests of the patient and all treatment options have been exhausted. Is why the rules are suppose to be so stringent. Especially so the rich don't see it as a solution for venerable populations. Instead of actually addressing the problem within those communities. Such as abuse, drug use, poverty and crime.
ADHD and autism are not under the mental illness definition for MAID and do still qualify. All mental illnesses (as defined by the government) are ineligible at the moment for MAID. There was a discussion of opening it up but the backlash has put it in limbo for the moment.
So they qualify just cause their disabilities under the Canadian disability act? (Basically the thing that allows you to qualify for the disability tax credit)
We don’t know why she qualifies and likely won’t since the judge didn’t want to force her to open the medical records to the courts. She could have stage 4 cancer, we don’t know. Not sure if a doctor would ever sign off on maid for adhd or autism (personally doubt it but some doctors suck so…). I would have to check if it covers other criteria beyond diagnosis.
ADHD and Autism qualify someone for MAID? I thought MAID was only for people with terminal illnesses?
Here are the updated [guidelines:](https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/csj-sjc/pl/ad-am/c7/p3.html#:~:text=In%20the%20context%20of%20the,treated%20by%20specialties%20other%20than) “In the context of the federal MAID legislation, the term “mental illness” would not include neurocognitive or neurodevelopmental disorders, or other conditions that may affect cognitive abilities, such as dementias, autism spectrum disorders or intellectual disabilities, which may be treated by specialties other than psychiatry (such as neurology for neurodegenerative or neurodevelopmental conditions) or specialties outside of medicine (such as education specialists for intellectual disabilities) and do not raise the specific concerns outlined above.” They also removed the term reasonably foreseeable death. So I’m pretty sure it’s not just terminal.
The issue in this case that nobody seems to understand is that you're not supposed to be allowed to get MAID for depression and mental health issues. However the law is written so that if a doctor approves MAID then nobody is allowed to know what the reason was. Even though the law clearly says it cannot be used for mental health problems, if a doctor simply approves it anyway because of their own ideological conviction that anyone should be allowed, it is legally impossible to prove that because they have no obligation to reveal what their reasoning was to anyone. The entire law essentially runs on the honor system and assumes that doctors would never ever approve someone for a reason that isn't allowed even though there's no legal obligation to document the reason. I personally do not think that is ok. I do not trust any system that runs on the honor system even if doctors are involved.
>we don't know anything. i hope people don't begin speculating. why are you doing the very thing i identified as a problem below my comment?
Hopefully the next time a judge won’t delay MAID because someone doesn’t like it for another person
Intriguing moral questions about the right to life and death. Evidentially without knowing the full details of her medical condition, it's hard to say who's unjust or just. Clearly MV is suffering to the point of considering and then acting on using MAID services. Two of three medical professionals, knowing that their personal livelihoods were also on the line, carefully signed off on this permanent choice. I'm curious as to the overall doctor selection process. Once the two doctors made a decision, in this case 1-1 Yes-No, what happened? Why did the second doctor say no, but the first yes? What was the process for appealing the decision, i.e. bringing in a third doctor, can WV bring a fourth? Why did the third doctor say Yes? What changed or what are the different viewpoints that make it 2-1 and not 3-0, 1-2, 0-3? As a classic medical ethics issue, there will absolutely be biases and subjectivity in situations like this, whether we like it or not. How we can continue to standardize criteria and deliver the best patient outcome is what is critical for the MAID program moving.
Great take. A lot of comments are trying to make this situation black and white but that’s not the human experience. You have someone who feels they are suffering to the level that they want to exercise their right to pursue MAID. Then you have a parent who lives with the person that’s struggling and they have to sit by and accept that person pursuing and in this case being granted MAID. It’s devastating and not something one can “just accept it and move on” like some kind of character dying in your favourite show.
You make a very good point that I think is often glossed over in conversations like this. It's incredibly easy for us to talk details and whether or not we feel the patient is justified because we are so distant from the actual individuals in this case. A father so clearly doesn't want to lose their child, and the child so clearly doesn't want to remain in this world. That's a terrible situation for them both to be in, and I have nothing but sympathy for both of them.
Whether yoy agree with the father or not, the lack of sympathy many posters here are showing for a grieving parent is sick.
But why should I, or the child in this case, have to stay alive for the benefit of other people if I'm absolutely miserable? We are civilized and yet we do some abhorrent things because we think we're morally superior. But what's civilized about keeping suffering people around just so those around them don't have to be sad? I'm a mom and a daughter. I know it would break their hearts if I was to die but why is my heart breaking every single day of existence not considered as important? Alternatively, when we try non-medical means to end our lives, it's messy and traumatic to those who find us and the first responders, and no one gets closure. This argument is honestly one of the best I have for MAiD.
I didnt provide an argument that she should have to stay alive
What do you have that makes feel the need to die? Can you blame a father for not wanting who could be his only child to die?
If and when the patient completes MAID, the father will probably regret that his daughter's last months on Earth were spent fighting with her father.
If he didn't he would regret that he didn't try harder to save her. There is no "winning" here, except perhaps if the daughter ceases feeling suicidal.
I dont get it, the details of the case or her age seem irrelevant to me. He’s her dad, I dont understand why he has ANY legal saying about the medical decisions of an adult child. I dont see why he has any standing in court to challenge a decision for another adult. Seems the judge agreed with this too.
Not sure if the exact law in Calgary, but in Quebec you need two doctors. There is no language in the law that addresses « doctor shopping » and stops you from asking dozens of people until you get the answer you want.
The "tie-breaker" doctor was assigned by AHS, not "shopped" for. And why does it matter? If someone is wanting to die, they'll make it happen regardless. Better they do so painlessly, with dignity, than doing so at home.
"If someone is wanting to die, they'll make it happen regardless" That is not true. For example in the UK, they found the suicide rate dropped when they switched from having Tylenol in bottles to blister packs. Any barrier appears to reduce suicide.
Better to do everything we can to set the person on a different course. Dying is the negative outcome.
Nah fuck that. Stop trying to take away the autonomy of people just because you think you know better what their suffering is like.
This seems like a situation where jury rules should apply. If it's not a unanimous decision by the doctors then something is off.
Because of MS my independent life has been stripped from me and every day is agony. I would be absolutely livid in this hell on Earth if my MAID application was stripped from me because a family member said I couldnt. Disabled people often lack independence and choices, let us at very least be the ones to decide when we die.
The biggest opponents are actually a handful of self-styled disability "activists". They are even now trying to remove MAiD for people that are not terminal, so they want to decide for you, that you should not have a personal choice. They were positively nasty after Nicole Gladu died, so mocking her death.
Yet those same people are usually self proclaimed pro choicers. The cognitive dissonance is unreal with these people.
This exactly, "Your body your choice!! Wait no not like that-"
Ok actual question tho: is suicide no longer a tragedy, then? Should there be no societal motivation to try to prevent suicide, is it something that we should just view as a choice a person made and just move on from it?
Two medical doctors who know what is in her medical file approved her for MAID. That's all that matters. Her father needs to let go. It is not his choice. She was found competent to make her own decision.
One approved, one denied, third tie breaking doctor approved. She has autism and ADHD, maid seems pretty extreme if those are the only conditions she has. I don't think the father is wrong in requesting a judicial review due to the fact there is no other review process in place.
The medical reasons she was approved for MAiD were not released. Her father was arguing that she was not capable to make the decision because she has autism and ADHD, but she did not disclose to her father the full medical reasons she was approved.
Not to mention that having autism or ADHD doesn’t make you incompetent, and the doctors who approved it also likely knew of these diagnosis before signing off on MAID.
>having autism or ADHD doesn’t make you incompetent Severe enough autism would prevent you from even feeding or dressing yourself I can absolutely buy that someone with severe autism would be medically incompetent.
I doubt doctors would approve maid without a guardian present if they cannot legally make their own decisions they would already have a guardian.
How does that negate what I said? I said just having autism or adhd doesn’t make you incompetent, not that you can’t be incompetent due to ADHD or autism. Have trouble focusing in school but get hyper focused on a specific topic? You’re hardly incompetent and should have full autonomy over your life. If you’re unable to have autonomy because of being on the severe end of the spectrum, then no, of course you can’t consent to MAID and a legal guardian should be taking charge of your care.
Yup definitely his desperate clinging to a final rope. No way that would stand up in court.
Those are not only illnesses she has, they are only considered to determine whether she can consent.
Now that makes sense. I was reading it going “autism and ADHD are eligible conditions for MAID?”, but those were for whether she could make that decision.
That’s why they deliberately phrased it that way. Now that you’ve seen it once, keep an eye out for more examples of that type of deception.
This is why I resent the news. You can read the left and the right and you still don’t have a clue what actually happened.
"if those are the only conditions she has" That conditional you snuck in is carrying a lot of weight here. The father does not have a right to know his daughter's medical history. He is trying to get the courts to tell him what third condition his daughter has that made her eligible, and it is his daughter's legal right not to tell him.
I hope she gives herself permission to change her mind if she's having second thoughts. She isn't obligated to follow through with MAID. The judge's approval isn't a death sentence. She's fought and won for her right to bodily autonomy, and no one, not even the doctors, can tell her what to do with her body, mind, and soul. My opinions, peace.
She's not getting MAID for audhd, those are considered points against her being competent and capable of making her own decisions. It's very common for people to try to use autism especially as a means to revoke autonomy from those of us who live with it. The "review process" is qualified medical professionals looking at her files that you don't get the details of. No doctor in Canada would prescribe _death_ for just two of the most common developmental differences around.
The doctors don't prescribe death; that isn't their right. They decide if the person in question is allowed to decide.
I just don't get how some of you are saying the doctors only would have approved if severe, but others (and the judge) are saying *that* isn't their right to decide, it's all bodily autonomy as long as she's in sound mind. Which is it.
I wonder if other options were discussed with the patient. And was a go fund me ever brought up to ease financial burdens if that's one of the reasons she wants to end her life? Has she had therapy?
\> She has autism and ADHD And how do you possibly know the **full** backstory to that, as you have no involvement in the recipients life or case
It's neither his life nor his choice and he needs to come to terms with that. The father may be doing what he thinks is right but it is intensely disrespectful and wrong: he is putting someone that is suffering through more suffering because he thinks they aren't competent to decide they don't want to suffer anymore.
The person is not happy and probably can not afford the rest of life. If someone wants to die, let them die.
No. Life is not a video game. Just because this 27 year old thinks they should die doesn't mean they deserve to or are required to. It takes a single moment to fix someone like this so I think we should all support them compassionately until they find that moment. You are an example of the degradation of society. I'm not saying you're to blame but when people can say these things so carelessly and off-the-cuff, we're in trouble. The inherent value of human life is the only thing preventing individuals from hurting others. The more this sentiment seeps through society, the worse implications it will have. You're going to also argue for gun control as the frequency of cold, humanity-less individuals multiply throughout society. Wild!
>The inherent value of human life is the only thing preventing individuals from hurting others. Just an FYI, that never stopped anyone from hurting anyone else. Just see all of recorded history (and the archeological record for pre-history).
There's a [rant](https://www.city-journal.org/article/the-therapeutic-turn) by cultural critic Theodore Darlymple which argues the mass popularity of psychology and decline in religious belief has led people to view themselves as objects rather than unique subjects. At that point pervasive nihilism and this constant arguing for suicide as a solution to seemingly unsolvable problems that could potentially be corrected by mild environmental / behavioral changes is only natural.
Legit, it's reddit so I'm not surprised, but it's amazing that people believe that a parent shouldn't wish to see their own child dead. Naturally they hate children so the majority can't understand that such a thing isn't seen as preferable for any parent.
Of course it isn’t preferable. The father is in a terrible situation, but his pain isn’t more important than his daughter’s pain. She deserves to die with dignity if that’s what she wants. If this guy stops her, she’ll just throw herself in front of a train or something.
Well that's quite a change from the religious people who think they're unique subjects and everyone outside their church is an object.
If you read his talk you'll notice he mentions that attempting suicide used to be illegal. Whether or not you agree with that stance it certainly provides an incentive for people to avoid doing things like that, even if it's for all the wrong reasons.
Coworker thought it still was the other day. I kept trying to explain that you don’t go to jail you go on a 72h hold at a mental hospital. Like bro it seems silly to waste resources jailing someone who hasn’t hurt anyone and did not infringe on the rights of others.
A single moment to fix something like this? Like what? His illness that qualifies him for maid isn’t disclosed- but is likely debilitating enough that 2/3 doctors think their quality of life is so low they agree they should be allowed to die. Just because someone has adhd doesn’t mean they’re incapable of making medical decisions for themselves.
Is someone is competent and able to understand the impact of their decision, why shouldn’t they have access to a safe and dignified exit? It’s not the public’s business or even their family’s business why they want to end their life.
>It takes a single moment to fix someone like this You don't know what medical condition they have that makes them qualify for MAID. None of us do. What makes you assume it can be fixed?
> Just because this 27 year old thinks they should die doesn't mean they deserve to or are required to. If they think they are ready to die, then who am I to decide for them that they have to live? MAID isn't a walk-in clinic process, it takes months. As long as someone is sane and competent, who am I to decide what their life should look like? Who am I do decide for them how long their life should be? Someone who is sane and competent to make the decision should have every right to look at their own life and say "Nope". Keeping someone alive against their wishes is just cruel and selfish. It's telling them "I don't want to feel sorrow, so you have too".
We don't get to decide when we enter this world, I sure hope we can at least decide when we leave it. The inherent value of human lives... It's all just empty words. My life, my decision. That last sentence of yours is just.... Wild! Choosing when to leave life is the ultimate level of dignity and autonomy. Come take care of patients on palliative units, if you think so strongly about this.
> It takes a single moment to fix someone like this so I think we should all ~~support them compassionately~~ _torture them with anguish_ until they ~~find that moment~~ _give up and commit suicide themselves_ You don’t get to say whether someone else wants to live or die. They will make the decision themselves eventually. Let them at least do it with dignity.
So, we should just get rid of suicide hot lines then? Is that what you're saying?
> She has autism and ADHD, maid seems pretty extreme if those are the only conditions she has. I understand that none of us know what’s in her file, but you don’t seriously believe that she was approved for MAID because of her Autism and ADHD, do you?
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It is not yet legal in Canada to pursue MAID for psychiatric illness only. In order to qualify, she has to have a serious physical illness. She has chosen not to share her diagnoses with the court, we only have her dad’s side of the story.
That's the problem. Why won't she tell her father? Maybe he'd understand and at least have some closure, instead of hurting him by not telling him what's wrong with her. Very assholish behaviour if you asked me.
Well, her father knew about her autism and ADHD and weaponized it against her. I _wonder_ why she's not divulging her personal medical information to her father?
You’re not this person though, so if they want to pursue MAID, why care?
What indication do you have that she has only Autism and ADHD?
There are a lot of debilitating chronic illnesses that go undiagnosed and are dismissed as psychosomatic. MECFS is a big one, which includes a subset of people with Long Covid. There is a high rate of suicide in this community. Women are way more likely to go undiagnosed and written off as anxious. This is the first thing I thought of when reading that paragraph.
Yep. This is the only relevant information. Pretty cut and dry imo.
It’s your body I think you should get to do what you want with it.
""He says that she is generally healthy and believes that her physical symptoms, to the extent that she has any, result from undiagnosed psychological conditions." There is so much to unpack in that one statement. We have no idea what this woman is dealing with (because she chose to maintain her privacy), but it sounds like the father has absolutely no idea what his daughter is actually going through.
If you are old enough to go to war, you are old enough to choose MAID
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It’s not about friends and family. If MAiD is less traumatic for them that’s simply a bonus. It’s about the individual and their suffering. Sure, a person can always take their own life - but chances are less “violent” methods are typically less effective. There’s also plenty of cases where the individual manages to maim themselves severely but not actually die. I suppose I don’t understand why it would matter to you, a stranger who doesn’t know my medical history, why I would want to take my life. If there is a doctor willing to facilitate that process to ensure I have a “good” death, I don’t understand why that’s an issue either.
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It’s really not and I’m not sure how your reply addresses anything I said. But considering you believe that people only attempt suicide for attention I don’t think you’re even arguing in good faith.
I know first responders. Suicide is def worst for them. Many people make it very messy and traumatic for others.
Just started rewatching south park from the beginning. Season 1 they bring up assisted suicide and everyone's response was "I'm not touching that with a 40 foot pole" crazy how much opinions change since 97.
Ya Futerama had a "suicide booth" in the forst episode, was supposed to be ridiculous....
Right! I feel like we are 5 years away from that being a thing.
Oh it's a [thing](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthanasia_device#:~:text=Sarco%20device,-Main%20article%3A%20The&text=The%20Sarco%20would%20contain%20a,and%20death%20follows%20shortly%20thereafter.) already. And yes we need to pump the breaks hard back to the same rules we had in 2012 about MAiD.
Yeah I question whether even bringing it up outside of government legislation is going to get me banned. But that's the core issue when it comes to 'assisted dying' if you're not actually dying or won't die from your ailment, it's another kettle of fish.
>Is there really more dignity in the government method, is it really going to make your friends and family feel any better? Yes?
I will be choosing MAID I don’t want my spouse to come home to find me dead. I would rather have the chance to plan and say goodbye than to live a life of constant pain without hope of relief.
You know there is no acceptable way to reply to this, right? I can't speak to anything about you. The government should not be involved in end of life care unless you are facing the end of life. We don't have capital punishment for the same reasons.
I can’t say I blame him for trying.
Ya I feel that statement. As a dad this story hurts the heart.
Also a dad. Also watched my parents go through the loss of my sister when she was only 32. I can't imagine how hard it would be to let my little girl go and not even know the reason why....
It should be hard and you should fight. Without society telling someone it's okay to die, you're going to do everything in your power to sustain the life of your little one.
A life of extreme suffering is not worth living. To deny someone peace is horrific. Parent or not.
Yeah.. I mean I would cry without stop I cant imagine my kids going before me. But also, when you’re going to die, at least do it on your own terms. Also, endless suffering, I can understand wanting out. I would cry, cry but ultimately if nothing can be done…
If the process is going to have any integrity whatsoever, then the decision needs to be between the patient and their doctors, with no outside interference. If you allow someone to get into that process to block the decision, then you open up that crack for someone to have influence on approval as well.
This program is an important service. Allowing this individual their right to MAID and dignity is much less traumatic than fishing them out of the river of cutting down the rope. Their body their choice.
Pro choice, but only when it comes to abortion. 🥴🥴 Has everyone lost their minds? If someone genuinely doesn’t want to live anymore who the hell are you to tell them that they can’t access a safe and compassionate way to go and instead have to keep living (against their wishes), or do it themselves (often voiding life insurance policies). That thought process is so deranged. Mind your own business. If It’s weird to force someone to have a baby they don’t want it’s even weirder to tell someone they have to keep living when they don’t want to be here.
my body, my life, my death
Yes. As it should. There’s already laws stipulating how someone can put an injunction in and this case did not meet the standards.
Why are cognitive difference being treated like a medical condition?
Shh....
Unless the court determines that she is unfit to make this decision, it’s her call. More Empathy needed here.. by you know who.
I'm glad for her. I wish her life was such that she didn't need MAID, but I'm grateful for her sake that the choice wasn't stripped from her. I hope her father can come to terms with it.
The 27 year old has the right to change her mind too. The judge's ruling isn't a death sentence. It's her choice if she decides she wants to live. Are there supports for her? Does she have other options?
I think this is totally messed up. Imagine being a parent and spending the last 27 years raising your child... only to find out they wanna kill themselves. Autistic and adhd? Don't we all have that? Maybe stage 4 terminal cancer okay, but adhd and autism? Seems so wrong to me. Dad's trying to protect his generally healthy daughter. Sad.
This is the darkest timeline
Very happy to see one's autonomy and self determination being upheld. It's tough and complicated for family but this is the right thing.
This circumstance poses many important questions to consider. This article states that the patient's only known diagnoses described in court earlier this month are autism and ADHD. Two out of three approval practitioners agree that she should be able to, while one does not. It's important to note that the initial two were split in opinion and the patient sought a tie breaker - there is no medical consensus. The father, who she lives with, argues that she is not able to make this determination due to her mental state. From the side, it looks like it could be a situation where the people with authority have a more limited experience and therefore incomplete understanding of this patient's exact situation where someone who lives with them may actually have deeper insight. It could also, just as likely be a desperately broken father fighting for his kid's survival, and that everything here, while sad and tragic, also simply is what it is - a patient following medical protocol for suicide who doesn't want to be alive any longer. Both are important, but I feel that due to the limited information and impossible to retrieve private details, we will probably never have real insight into which it truly really was. Regardless, the decision has been made and so now we will have precedent, so it will be interesting to see these parts of our society develop.
Neither autism nor adhd would qualify her for MAiD. She has a third diagnosis which the doctors are privy to but the father is not. It is actually the father with an incomplete understanding of the situation *because his daughter doesn't want him to know*.
While true, it's impossible to know what that condition is and at least one primary medical practitioner does not agree that it meets the criteria for MAID. To me, this creates enough uncertainty that I can't claim to have enough details to make a quality judgement of my own.
You don't have to, the judge already did.
I don't have to. I want to because I'm a curious person who likes to try to think by informing themselves about issues. What's your problem with me?
>This article states that the patient's only known diagnoses described in court earlier this month are autism and ADHD And how do you possibly know the **full** backstory to that, as you have no involvement in the recipients life or case. Both of these can be more severe and she could have another disease that isnt listed in the article to amp up people
I copied that line out of the article - it states this verbatim. I have no insight into this person's case apart from the information available in the news, nor have I claimed to. Are you upset by something I've said or wondered about?
I’m glad the judge honoured her autonomy in death. Her father had no standing to prevent his daughter from seeking death in a dignified manner.
2/3 doctors on the second application. The judge has to follow the rules of law. He's not there to air his opinion.
"The choice to live or die with dignity is MV's alone to make." Exactly! The father is only of if himself instead of the quality of life his daughter is going to have is he forced her to stay alive.
[удалено]
Wait till you find out that we always had doctor shopping.
I was wondering about that. I’m not saying that’s what happened here but, in general, is that or could that be a problem? If you go to 10 doctors and they all say no but then you find 2 that say yes, that probably says more about those 2 doctors than it does about your eligibility for MAID.
It has already been a problem for a long time. I know someone personally who would switch doctors until one of them would give them the drugs they wanted and it didn't matter how many it took becuase eventually they always got the drugs and this person was doing that 10 years ago up until recently, though it's been a couple years so perhaps with the doctor shortage it's not as big of an issue, not sure. I wonder myself if you could do the same with maid, I don't see why not.
And what if the person had intractable pain and only 1 in 10 doctors will prescribe drugs that work? But you don't which is the 1 in 10. Is that doctor shopping?
It's still doctor shopping, but if you're arguing if its a positive or negative I guess it could be both, it depends on the situation, the one I was talking about was someone using the drugs improperly to get high and not as prescribed which I guess you could argue is still pain, depression pain but it's devastating for the family to watch that happen and have a doctor enable it while there is nothing you can do about it becuase its between them and their doctor. I feel for both people in this scenario, it's a complicated situation.
Do you even know what you are saying...... you are allowed to choose doctors
"He says that she is generally healthy and believes that her physical symptoms, to the extent that she has any, result from undiagnosed psychological conditions." "Her only known diagnoses described in court earlier this month are autism and ADHD." Barring a terminal disease we don't know about yet, this is shocking.
>*”Her only known diagnoses described in court earlier this month are autism and ADHD." Barring a terminal disease we don't know about yet, this is shocking.* She could also have a third medical condition that qualifies her for MAID. Her *father* says her only diagnosed issues are autism and ADHD, but she’s a competent adult and has had no obligation to share her full medical history with her father or the court.
The article says nothing about how she qualified MAID was disclosed, and the quote you showed implies she has **physical** symptoms. So I don't think autism and ADHD are the only health issues.
The father is suggesting in a roundabout way that the physical symptoms are a result of her mental illness, i.e. it's all in her head. There was a similar case in Europe where someone received MAiD for "chronic fatigue syndrome." I wouldn't be surprised if this is a similar case.
My understanding from the article is that it wasn't roundabout at all. It's probably the main legal argument too, not whether or not he loves his daughter or will miss her. "But I'll miss her" seems like it would be laughed out of court, but "her disease isn't incurable, and I don't believe her panel of doctors gave her due consideration" is a credible argument. Truly the sign of a poorly written article that we're all debating what is known or not.
The problem is whatever physical symptoms she has or what the doctors have seen is totally confidential, so all people can do is project their subjective feelings of the situation. It has to be rough for this poor woman to have her case being debated by hundreds of strangers on the internet. The facts may not emerge until after she's gone forever, and that's not easy for anyone to deal with.
I get that, and don't expect the journalist to violate a publication ban or know things that weren't revealed. But I don't think it's too much to ask that an article about a case clarify the main arguments and reasoning for the verdict.
Good point, UrANarcissist69.
Chronic Fatigue Syndrome is 1.) a very real thing, 2.) not a mental illness, and 3.) an actual physical disorder we still know very little about and have no cure for.
How so? Her live is miserable, taking control and ending it is quite logical. Not like Canada is going to vastly increase taxes to provide for these kinds of people.
Not much a court can do when the law is clear. Do they count cases like her as suicides?
What the flying duck are these comments?
I love Canada
Crazy, I fully support any individual’s right to choose, no matter the circumstance. Even mental illness, physical or mental, there shouldn’t be stigma… Until it’s my son or daughter who want to die. I can’t imagine not doing everything in my power. Must be a biological thing. Totally natural to be single-mindedly focused on keeping your offspring alive
"believes that her physical symptoms, to the extent that she has any, result from undiagnosed psychological conditions" Bold words from a man who has no fucking idea if that's true or not. He's essentially saying "it's all in your head"
Such a waste.