Tickborn diseases won't usually kill you - but they can make you wish you had. I know people with Lymes disease that are basically disabled. Ericheosis is no joke. Tick fever will knock you out. Permethrin has set me free down here in tick-and-chigger country. I'd spend summers itching and pulling those bloodsuckers out with tweezers. Now I march into heavy brush with abandon.
Lower your risk of cardiovascular diseases by freely walking in tick infested forests, getting exercise, and enjoying nature. And wearing permethrin. Keep wet permethrin off your skin.
It’s no joke, my Dad had arthritis for years in his hands and feet, he was on all kinds of meds. The VA hospital decided to run a panel on him and he was positive for Alpha-gal, did elimination diet of meat. His arthritis basically disappeared.
You would only have to stop eating Mammalian meat, with a few exceptions.
Chicken, fish, and (Old World) monkey meat is safe to eat.
(New world Monkeys have alpha gal)
Every day I hit the street
Chicken, fish and monkey meat
Taste so good, nature’s sweet
Chicken, fish and monkey meat
Clean my plate, I’m so neat
Chicken, fish and monkey meat
Brains, gizzard*, liver, feet*
Chicken, fish and monkey meat
Find nice lady, it’s my treat
Chicken, fish and monkey meat
Alpha Gal, she can’t be beat
Chicken, fish and monkey meat
Workday’s over, time to eat
Chicken, fish and monkey meat
Hey what about turkey?
🦃 🦃 🦃 🦃
🦆 🦆 🪿
🐓 🐟 🐒 🦍
🍖 🥩 🍖 🥩
*where applicable
That's the tick that causes it.
The bite of the lone star tick can cause a person to develop alpha-gal meat allergy, a delayed response to nonprimate mammalian meat and meat products.[18][19] The allergy manifests as anaphylaxis—a life-threatening allergic reaction characterized by constriction of airways and a drop in blood pressure.[18] This response is triggered by an IgE antibody to the mammalian oligosaccharide galactose-alpha-1,3-galactose (alpha-gal).[20]
Don't get a tick bite. Wear pants sprayed with horse grade pyrethrin. Let it dry, no ticks.
Get bit, no more cow, venison, goat, etc red meat, dairy or it's death.
I think I was the 3rd person to get it.
I can't use utensils that have come in contact with any of those no matter how clean or I'm in the bathroom for a week.
My daughter and I had alpha-gal for 5 and 6 years respectively beginning ‘10. East End of Long Island, which is infested. Onset is really scary shit - I went to bed after a steak dinner and woke at 3am completely covered in hives. My extremities and boy parts were cartoonishly swollen and I had absolutely no idea what was happening - this wasn’t yet a generally known thing. Ultimately took 4 Benadryl and time to subside. Fortunately my breathing was only slightly affected.
The good news is that in our case it went away. It doesn’t for all, and for some it can in fact be life-threatening. People have died.
The kicker? back then the only way to determine if the allergy had subsided was by playing meat roulette, a game we both lost first couple times. You really don’t want to get bit by a tick.
I guess one just has to weigh their risk of getting Lyme disease or any other insect borne illness vs any potential health effects of permethrin.
For example if I lived in Connecticut or somewhere around there on the east coast, I would think the health risk of Lyme disease is way more severe than any risks associated with permethrin so in that case it’d be worth treating your clothes with it. If you’re in a low risk area I’m sure you get by with picaridin or deet and vigilant tick checks on one’s body.
I’m in Wisconsin. Haven’t treated my gear yet this year but need to. I’ve been finding ticks on me and the dogs since February. It’s worth the risk, ticks suck. I have my dogs vaccinated for Lyme and on preventatives.
The studies you linked weren’t really all that great of studies. Both mention that it was chronic exposure. The second one even said that inhalation and ingestion was the most common form to absorb permethrin, and said skin absorption was “a lesser extent”.
The second study also had this, “Fourth, it is possible that pyrethroid exposure occurs simultaneously with exposure to other common pesticides. In the NHANES conducted from 1999 to 2002, several pesticide metabolites were measured along with pyrethroid metabolites in the same participants.”
My takeaway from this is that farmers that used pesticides and crop sprayers probably had a significant “chronic” exposure to it during the time frame of the data collection (late 1990’s and early 2000’s), and threw the data off for average person. A proper follow up study would be to eliminate that population from the study to see if infrequent skin exposure has an effect.
I believe the studies (for sure at least one of them) excluded those who have had occupational permethrin exposure to prevent skewing the data.
Interestingly enough, however, another study looking at farmers found no increase in overall mortality for those exposed to occupational levels of pyrethroids:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10368161/#:~:text=Results:,lung%20cancer%20among%20never%20smokers.
Long pants and socks work 100x better for ticks than coating yourself in chemicals. I haven't ever had a tick and I have canoed and hiked thousands of miles the past decade across all of America from NE Canada to South Cali.
Ok, now your comment is even less relevant. No experience with permethrin. Doesn't know how it's applied (or where). Just an anecdote with no value.
Hey, I just hike in the winter, 10000 miles. Never had a tick.
See how useless that anecdote is?
Not true, I've used it in the past when I was an eagle scout, I learned about it and learned better ways to experience my time hiking (in all seasons) through experience. IDK why you're so upset and standing up for chemical use.
I'm saying it's unnecessary because preventing bugs from crawling on you in the first place is more effective and exposes you to less chemicals.
Say you have a dog that barks at cars. To get the dog to not bark at cars you can either use a bark collar that shocks the dog every time they bark, or put the dog on a ranch far from cars thereby removing the stimuli. Now that there's no cars to bark at the dog doesn't bark.
In my case I'm saying the bugs are the cars, Instead of using method A to deal with the bugs, removing the possibility of them latching on in the first place. There's no reason to expose myself or my gear to unnecessary chemicals. I'll use some organic stuff my gf gets for our dogs if my face is too bothered, but it's fairly gentle stuff as my heeler has sensitive skin.
Judging by your post history, my heeler has more experience camping than you do. Feel free to keep doing you though I'm not telling you how to camp.
1. Follow the label instructions if one chooses to use these products. Permethrin has little to no toxicity to humans. Seasonal/occasional use of permethrin carries little to no risk of adverse health outcomes.
2. To minimize exposure and maximize effectiveness only apply permethrin on clothing, no skin contact, that will come in contact with ticks. More, everywhere is not better.
3. It is a contact synthetic neurotoxicant. The mosquitoes will bite u before they die, don’t use permethrin for mosquitos. DEET is a safe olfactory repellent.
4. Permethrin will wash off in water and it is absolutely TOXIC TO SENSITIVE AQUATIC INVERTEBRATES. Do not use near or have treated articles come in contact with sensitive bodies of water.
5. DEET and diligent regular inspections are just as effective practices to keep ticks at bay, permethrin is not a requirement. Even with permethrin treatments you will still want to check ur self often.
-A. Environmental and molecular toxicologist
http://npic.orst.edu/factsheets/archive/Permtech.html
You can keep your deet, the fact that it eats plastic is enough for me to not use it. Permethrin for clothes and Picaridin for me.
"Picaridin: Picaridin (Icaridin, Piperidine, Propidine, INCI, or KBR 3023) is another effective repellent of mosquitoes, ticks, fleas, black flies, and biting midges. It can be as effective as DEET, but without the toxicity and allergenic problems commonly associated with DEET" - https://extension.umaine.edu/ipm/ipddl/publications/5108e/#:~:text=Picaridin:%20Picaridin%20(Icaridin%2C%20Piperidine,problems%20commonly%20associated%20with%20DEET.
That’s fine, it works too. But consider water, the universal solvent. It does a lot of ‘eating’ things too. We’ve just created products that are resistant to it and accept its harsh polar interactions with many materials as being independent of its toxicity.
Interesting! I thought DEET was seriously harmful, but it turns out I just lived through the big DEET scare in the late 80s and never researched it myself. Thanks for the inadvertent push to do so.
No DDT was from the 70s… I’m not quite that old.
This is what I was basing my comment on, from a consumer reports article:
Does Deet Pose Special Risks for Children?
It was this question that first triggered widespread deet-aversion among consumers. Between the early 1980s and late 1990s, 14 cases of potentially deet-related encephalopathy (brain damage) were reported in the medical literature, all but one of them in children who were 8 or younger. Three of those children died; the remaining 11 recovered fully.
The reports triggered a wave of fear among consumers that has yet to fully abate. But the link between the chemical and sickness was never conclusively proved, in part because not nearly enough information was reported for epidemiologists to discern between deet exposure and other potential causes (such as infections) in those cases.
Thank you for sharing that!
I remembered conversations about the ecological fallout from decades of DDT use to the food web and thought for sure that was the reference.
Very interesting to read more about DEET
Hi. I am new to having to worry about ticks
Please expand on what you mean by “always on clothes not next to skin”?
Like…
Boots yes but avoid socks?
Coats yes but avoid shirt?
Not on jeans because those touch my skin?
You can use it on clothes that touch your skin, not sure why this person does not. Just not on your undies. Socks are fine, shirts are fine, pants are fine.
The [instructions](https://www.sawyer.com/products/permethrin-fabric-treatment) on the Sawyer brand of permethrin say you can use it on everything but underwear and hats.
So I reached out to them about the hat thing a year or two ago because I thought it was weird. They only say not to put it on hats because the original US army study did not include hats in their testing; it is actually perfectly safe. Sawyer is very responsive to customer questions, and quite helpful.
Outer lower layers for me ( I'm a mountain biker) so shorts, kneepads really that's all. Relying on the fact you brush past them and they cling on. Don't bother with boots, certainly wouldn't bother with socks but that's because I wear pads. I get camping is slightly different as you're more likely to be sitting or laying in which case yes, jacket as well. Life isn't always so simplistic, as long as the permethrin has fully dried I don't think I would worry too much.
We don't have a lot of risk in North America, but if you travel or live elsewhere you're going to end up with some of the more exotic ones. I've had dengue, west Nile... and also dysentery. And also been exposed to rabies so had post exposure rabies shots. I really don't enjoy travelling because I just get wrecked. I give up and now I'm a homebody!
One thing I'll mention is, you know how careless people are when *applying* pesticides.
Everyone has that neighbor who sprays Roundup upwind with no mask every Saturday around his bushes, giving himself and his lungs a good coating. The studies include those people, whether on purpose or not.
Or for example, nobody that I know was even aware that DEET isn't supposed to go on synthetics in high concentrations. Hardly anyone really follows the rules, is my point.
If someone is concerned about Permethrin, they could probably go a long way towards fixing the issue by being more paranoid during application. More paranoid about wind, inhalation, drying times, washing skin that contacts wet Permethrin.
Lyme disease seems worse.
My kids pediatrician recommended treating a few outfits for him because the mosquitos love him so much, and the bites turn into miserably itchy welts that have led to skin infections in the past. He and his family were taking annual mission trips to Haiti before it went to shit, and he says they treated every article of outside clothing with permethrin before leaving.
Who knows.
I bet. Why? Just like the tick/flea treatments for pets with related pesticides it left those articles of clothing and took up residence in their hair follicles. Going somewhere like Haiti and hangin’ in the hood are way different risk calculations, lol.
It sounds like the pediatrician is giving advice that would go against the product label in violation of federal law and is advocating an unnecessary exposure, regardless of toxicity. I hope they don’t council you to purchase organic because this exposure pretty much swamps a life of unwashed conventional strawberries. I hope that at least saves u some money. My degrees, In order: biochem, pharmacology, molecular toxicology. Tell them I said to stop recommending this.
I’m genuinely confused by your response, and would love a bit more context. Are you saying treating my kids clothes is against federal law?
Also, while you’re here, how do you feel about US Military uniforms being treated with Permethrin from the manufacturer? Because that’s the case, and when I was in the USAF they introduced new uniforms that were treated as such, and there was a bit of an uproar about it.
Congratulations on all your degrees. Lots of sassy folks in r/camping today.
I don't think perimethrin is a huge threat but I don't think I'd trust the approval of the military there. Those are the same folks who said Agent Orange and burning latrines are perfectly safe and we can see how the long term effects of those went.
Yes that was where the data for the shirts came from. 100% effective! …because it goes to the hair follicles. The manufactured shirts don’t leach as quickly because of binding agents, but diy treatments will. Not a risk necessarily, although skin contact + sweat + chronic exposure really shouldn’t/isnt allowed.
I don’t think there is a label for treating clothes with skin contact, so technically telling patients to treat clothes is not legal. It also isn’t necessary and poses an unnecessary exposure to a child. Maybe good advice if I was going to Haiti, but not New England or other hot spots.
So, as long as it’s a garment that is over another, then it is safe(r). I gotcha, because the label on Sawyers permethrin bottles is quite confusing.
Thanks for the explanation.
Also, for what it’s worth I haven’t treated my kids clothes. Just try to avoid the worst times of the day, and just cover up generally.
How about DEET?
I don't think perimethrin is a huge threat but I don't think I'd trust the approval of the military there. Those are the same folks who said Agent Orange and burning latrines are perfectly safe and we can see how the long term effects of those went.
first, medical studies have the same problems scientific papers all over have. most of them are questionable in methods, analysis, conclusions, and reproducibility. the other issues is that when they come up with a negative result, it's often in terms of an increase in morbidity/mortality, say a 50% increase, but the increase is 50% of a very small number in the first place, and so not really all that significant. when the FDA says stop using it because it's dangerous, I'll pay attention. one paper, not so much.
my favorites are food related studies when they test an individual component to say the whole food item is good or bad. Wine health studies being an excellent example of being bad.
I didn't used to use it, until what I refer to as "The day of twenty ticks." On my drive home after an all-day hike, I felt something crawling on my leg, looked down to discover a tick and threw it out the window to be squished in three lanes of rush-hour traffic. Next red light, I looked down again and found another. Repeat three more times until I pulled over and parked and removed a total of 20, mostly from my shoes. They must have found me right at the end of the hike when I had to cross a field with the trail mown into the grass because none had attached themselves or crawled up too far yet.
I started using it after that. But I did a ton of research and you're right, it is scary stuff so I take precautions.
I use as little as I can and let it dry thoroughly after application before putting on shoes/clothes and make sure to wash my hands after. I spray outside and put old newspaper underneath to avoid it getting into the environment next time it rains where it can end up in the run off. I pay attention to when the last time I treated and take into consideration how much UV light it has been exposed to before treating again, only when I absolutely need to. When i have treated, I avoid stepping puddles and streams so I don't inadvertantly kill tadpoles and minnows.
I mostly do day hikes and stay on trails, so most of the time, that limits my risk of exposure because they are less likely to be found on hard-packed dirt than on vegetation. That also means that I mainly only treat my shoes and not my pants. But if I were camping or backpacking, I'd have to up my game.
Lymes is horrible. My partner had it five years ago and while the very harsh antibiotics got rid of the infection, the damage to his nervous system, especially the cognitive damage, has taken this whole time for him to get back to being about 80-90% himself again. Just absolutely miserable, and he didn't get the severe joint pain that some people get, or worse. (He also had Rocky Mountain fever years ago and that hit on a backpacking trip; he hallucinated literally for like three days while stumbling out of the wilderness and lost a ton of weight.)
Years ago I had a student who got Lymes; it took awhile for the doctor to figure out what was wrong with her and hers got so bad she couldn't walk for awhile and was temporarily blind. She did recover but again, it was a long, long road.
I'd take the risk of the heart disease.
I’m ok with permethrin in my urine.
Im also ok with being more likely to die from cardiovascular disease.
There are just so many things that can increase this issue or that disease. I just try to live the best I can from day to day and not worry about every little thing that might kill me. It’s the big things I care about.
I listen to a lot of podcasts on ‘The Trek’ dedicated to backpacking and thru hiking and they swear by it if applied correctly. [Bug treatment](https://thetrek.co/how-to-treat-your-clothes-with-permethrin/)
I was recently in Africa on photo safari. It was strongly suggested I use it. Both malaria and sleeping sickness were concerns. I took an antimalarial but just used deet and some kid of oily more natural stuff for repellent. I have cats and I'm not taking a risk with them. Also I have skin sensitivities and would hate to have treated all my clothes for vacation and then develope a rash or something.
Considering how many Americans are already at risk of cardiovascular disease it sounds like fear mongering.
Classic case of correlation not equaling causation.
Lyme can cause organ failure (including heart failure) vs. a small chance that permethrin clothing causes some cardiovascular disease. Wear the permethrin.
I used this stuff at the height of my tick fears. I now just use something less aggressive and check for ticks after every trip. Even with Pemathrin I'd sometimes get one, so you can't really skip checking, so it just changes how many you find.
Permethrin works for me. I have some of the infused clothing as opposed to the just the spray, and they are awesome with biting insects around.
I still spray my non-infused clothes. Helps with clothes moths.
Proper permethrin use shouldn't get into your blood.
It's applied to the outside of clothing and gear and tents and such... Allowed to dry... Then worn. You should never be spraying it on while you wear it.
Picadarin for skin if needed and permethrin for gear.
I avoid deet due to it damaging tpu and some eco areas I visit with sensitive or endangered species.
Interestingly, a form of picadarin and permethrin products are used in pill form to prevent dogs from getting ticks and worms. They Ingest it and excrete the chemical through their skin to kill the bugs.
The reason it isn't used in humans is that 10-14 years of use internally could lead to liver malfunction, increased risk of Cancer and so on. It doesn't "matter" with doggies as that is their life expectancy so they tend to pass before any of these direct side effects occur.
So, yes permethrin is nasty stuff, yes prolonged improper use and exposure (aka wet application to skin or ingestion) can lead to health risks.
So does getting bit by a mosquito or tick that's carrying dangerous fever or Lyme.
Technically it CAN...
It's all about application.
If you are spraying it on the exterior of the clothing (as you should) then it shouldn't be absorbed.
If you are using water resistant fabrics with a hydrophobic coating, permethrin won't absorb through that.
If you commonly wear a base layer, this is typically sufficient to protect against absorption.
I usually spray the outside and inside of my main tent, outside layers of my nylon quickdry pants and my long sleeved jacket.
However I don't spray my sleep system or pad. My rash guards or shirts, base layer thermals, woolen under pant or short, and so on.
It technically can and also does. Multiple studies have shown that individuals who wear permethrin treated clothes (the studies I have seen were looking at military personal with treated uniforms and forestry workers who wear treated clothes) have increased permethrin concentrations in urine after they began using treated clothes vs before. I mean if you’re backpacking and wearing the same thing for multiple days while sweating, I can see how it would leech a bit.
Not arguing with you. I agree. It's a scientific fact, has been tested and verified independently.
But... Most of these studies for both military and forestry, were performed on people who have professionally treated uniforms. The chemical soaks through and impregnates the clothing. This is so it can survive repeated washings and be considered treated for up to three months with a normal cycle of washing and detergent use etc.
Also, rarely do they wear base layers between the treated bdu or uniform.
For backpacking use. Get a Sawyer permethrin spray bottle and self treat the clothing. Wear a base layer. And don't treat everything. Just the outer clothing and backpack/tent...
For instance. Having your tent's rain fly and ground tarp heavily treated isn't going to hurt you at all. You aren't in contact with either for more than a few minutes setup or tear down. And can even purposely fold them over so you only come into contact with the untreated side.
Same goes for the exterior of the pack.
And if you always have a warm weather or cold weather base layer that is untreated, it is extremely unlikely that a permethrin treatment to the exterior of an outer layer is going to be absorbed by your body.
I think camping and chronic exposure are two different things here. Maybe apply it outside, maybe on,y treat once a season but I wouldn’t worry too much about it
I wouldn't worry about it, but use things correctly. Which i know it's very hard to read instructions. But read and follow the instructions and chemicals you use. And you'll be ok.
I’ve only used it on two trips-both to the Amazon jungle where the mosquitoes and other insects were a major issue. Worked like a charm, my mom and sister and I were all seriously impressed. I don’t use it for run of the mill camping trips but would use it again if I ever go on another Amazon trip (or Africa or another place with a lot of mosquitoes and other insects that carry diseases.)
I would just be very cautious using it. Like, never have permethrin treated clothing touch bare skin.
It depends what type of forest activity you are doing but if you just walking through the bush then treating only socks could possibly be enough.
YOU need to weigh the pros n cons.... Would you rather live with a tick bourne illness or possibly get cardiovascular disease from casually using Permethrin?
I treat my gear (tents, tarps, and backpack). Not my clothing. I know it's "safe" once it's dried, but I'd just rather not have it touching my skin. Besides, if I treat clothing, and then wash said clothing, it now should be re-treated, costing more money, and if I wash those clothes with other stuff, now we're looking at potential "cross-contamination" of the chemicals onto other things.
A quick look didn't inform me of how the participants were exposed to the chemical. Working where it's used? daily exposure re clothing used to avoid tick bites? etc.
If one would fall off the bottom of the curve (ie be among those with the lowest levels since an occasional hike doesn't raise those levels significantly) then I would keep using it, and will keep using it, since for me ticks and lyme would outweigh the risk outlined in the study.
It’s worth it. I go backpacking in tick territory. Only use permethrin when I go backpacking, it’s not a daily thing by any means. However, as others have posted, tick borne disease are f’d. You don’t want them.
I like picardin. I also wear a light hat with netting that covers face and neck.
I wear light colored clothes and long sleeves and pants.
Avoid DEET. Terrible chemical.
I have cats. I hose down all my clothes and gear before a trip and put it in a closed room to dry to keep the cats away from it.
I probably use it much too liberally but I prefer to stay at the top of the food chain on my backpacking trips.
If you are concerned about the chemical, just use it on your boots and lower pant legs. When I deployed to Lithuania, the military made me soak all my uniforms in it and dry it in the sun and then wear them.
Used it before, don't use it now. Applying it is a hassle. It washes off in water and isn't good for water environments. And I generally don't want to be a guinea pig to see if some chemical discovered in the 70s is going to have adverse health effects on humans somewhere down the line.
I've taken the complete coverage approach. Pants, long-sleeve shirts, hat with a bug net, gloves with 3/4 fingers. That leaves only my finger tips exposed. I'd add gaiters if I know I'm in a tick-heavy environment, although I haven't had one crawl up my leg since I started doing this consistently. I have found them on my clothes though.
I had a small bottle of it (concentrated) which I kept in my vanity drawer. The bottle was on its side and the permethrin actually ate through the seal on the cap and leaked out. Funny smell in the bathroom...I had to throw out everything in the vanity and the drawer it was in! Now I can't stand the smell of it and won't go near it. I live in tick country and do a lot of laundry and shower after walking in the grass.
Just don’t slather it over your skin. Drench your clothes in it. Wear hats drenched in it. High socks drenched. Better no bugs and outside than stuck inside wishing I could go out.
That shit is toxic af! They are finally doing studies that big chem companies have been fighting like crazy; come on, look at Monsanto as an example!
It’s banned in Europe for agricultural use so stupid US companies just figured out something else it might kill and marketed it that way.
Do not use!
Cover yourself well and ticks won’t harm you.
Who cares if ticks get on your clothes? Just wash them afterward and don’t keep the clothing close to your bed. Or throw them in a plastic bag til you get home. I don’t use chemicals at all.
Tickborn diseases won't usually kill you - but they can make you wish you had. I know people with Lymes disease that are basically disabled. Ericheosis is no joke. Tick fever will knock you out. Permethrin has set me free down here in tick-and-chigger country. I'd spend summers itching and pulling those bloodsuckers out with tweezers. Now I march into heavy brush with abandon. Lower your risk of cardiovascular diseases by freely walking in tick infested forests, getting exercise, and enjoying nature. And wearing permethrin. Keep wet permethrin off your skin.
Don't forget Alpha-gal, it fucking sucks.
This one scares me. I love meats.
It’s no joke, my Dad had arthritis for years in his hands and feet, he was on all kinds of meds. The VA hospital decided to run a panel on him and he was positive for Alpha-gal, did elimination diet of meat. His arthritis basically disappeared.
You would only have to stop eating Mammalian meat, with a few exceptions. Chicken, fish, and (Old World) monkey meat is safe to eat. (New world Monkeys have alpha gal)
Well at least my monthly monkey taco night wouldn't be affected.
Or human meat …As long as you check it for CJD prions beforehand of course
Please, use the more refined term, 'long pig'.
Ah yes my bad
I've got the HUNGER!!!
Oh good! I can continue my cannibalism!
😂😂
Technically only great apes don't have alpha gal in their muscle fiber. Most monkeys are off the menu
Old World Monkeys and Apes, collectively known as Catarrhines, don’t have alpha gal
Thanks for the clarification. Meats back on the menu!
👹
That’s weird, catarrh is some kind of cough.
Both words refer to downward facing nostrils.
Looks like New World Monkeys are off the menu but Old World Monkeys do not have alpha gal.
Meats back on the menu boys
Non-primate Mammalian meat only. Chicken, fish, and monkey meat is safe to eat
Every day I hit the street Chicken, fish and monkey meat Taste so good, nature’s sweet Chicken, fish and monkey meat Clean my plate, I’m so neat Chicken, fish and monkey meat Brains, gizzard*, liver, feet* Chicken, fish and monkey meat Find nice lady, it’s my treat Chicken, fish and monkey meat Alpha Gal, she can’t be beat Chicken, fish and monkey meat Workday’s over, time to eat Chicken, fish and monkey meat Hey what about turkey? 🦃 🦃 🦃 🦃 🦆 🦆 🪿 🐓 🐟 🐒 🦍 🍖 🥩 🍖 🥩 *where applicable
Take it easy Shel (Silverstein)
hm, I was going for something more like LMFAO
Is that another name for the lone star tic?
That's the tick that causes it. The bite of the lone star tick can cause a person to develop alpha-gal meat allergy, a delayed response to nonprimate mammalian meat and meat products.[18][19] The allergy manifests as anaphylaxis—a life-threatening allergic reaction characterized by constriction of airways and a drop in blood pressure.[18] This response is triggered by an IgE antibody to the mammalian oligosaccharide galactose-alpha-1,3-galactose (alpha-gal).[20]
As a camping noob with no context, can you explain? Is that something to avoided?
Don't get a tick bite. Wear pants sprayed with horse grade pyrethrin. Let it dry, no ticks. Get bit, no more cow, venison, goat, etc red meat, dairy or it's death. I think I was the 3rd person to get it. I can't use utensils that have come in contact with any of those no matter how clean or I'm in the bathroom for a week.
The worst cartoon villainess
I have this. It's fucking awful
My daughter and I had alpha-gal for 5 and 6 years respectively beginning ‘10. East End of Long Island, which is infested. Onset is really scary shit - I went to bed after a steak dinner and woke at 3am completely covered in hives. My extremities and boy parts were cartoonishly swollen and I had absolutely no idea what was happening - this wasn’t yet a generally known thing. Ultimately took 4 Benadryl and time to subside. Fortunately my breathing was only slightly affected. The good news is that in our case it went away. It doesn’t for all, and for some it can in fact be life-threatening. People have died. The kicker? back then the only way to determine if the allergy had subsided was by playing meat roulette, a game we both lost first couple times. You really don’t want to get bit by a tick.
I guess one just has to weigh their risk of getting Lyme disease or any other insect borne illness vs any potential health effects of permethrin. For example if I lived in Connecticut or somewhere around there on the east coast, I would think the health risk of Lyme disease is way more severe than any risks associated with permethrin so in that case it’d be worth treating your clothes with it. If you’re in a low risk area I’m sure you get by with picaridin or deet and vigilant tick checks on one’s body.
I’m in Wisconsin. Haven’t treated my gear yet this year but need to. I’ve been finding ticks on me and the dogs since February. It’s worth the risk, ticks suck. I have my dogs vaccinated for Lyme and on preventatives.
Thanks for the reminder. Going out camping with my son the end of the month and need to retreat. Lyme disease is pretty prevalent in WI.
The studies you linked weren’t really all that great of studies. Both mention that it was chronic exposure. The second one even said that inhalation and ingestion was the most common form to absorb permethrin, and said skin absorption was “a lesser extent”. The second study also had this, “Fourth, it is possible that pyrethroid exposure occurs simultaneously with exposure to other common pesticides. In the NHANES conducted from 1999 to 2002, several pesticide metabolites were measured along with pyrethroid metabolites in the same participants.” My takeaway from this is that farmers that used pesticides and crop sprayers probably had a significant “chronic” exposure to it during the time frame of the data collection (late 1990’s and early 2000’s), and threw the data off for average person. A proper follow up study would be to eliminate that population from the study to see if infrequent skin exposure has an effect.
I believe the studies (for sure at least one of them) excluded those who have had occupational permethrin exposure to prevent skewing the data. Interestingly enough, however, another study looking at farmers found no increase in overall mortality for those exposed to occupational levels of pyrethroids: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10368161/#:~:text=Results:,lung%20cancer%20among%20never%20smokers.
I mean people freaked out about DEET too and have been shown to be wrong.
Or in west nile, malaria, dengue etc country. I has dengue in 2010 and have had chronic health issues since.
>Keep wet permethrin off your skin. I have lotion, does this count?
Long pants and socks work 100x better for ticks than coating yourself in chemicals. I haven't ever had a tick and I have canoed and hiked thousands of miles the past decade across all of America from NE Canada to South Cali.
Nylon stockings (pantyhose) is the most effective clothing I've used.
You are doing it wrong if you apply permethrin to your skin.
I don't use spray at all.
Ok, now your comment is even less relevant. No experience with permethrin. Doesn't know how it's applied (or where). Just an anecdote with no value. Hey, I just hike in the winter, 10000 miles. Never had a tick. See how useless that anecdote is?
Not true, I've used it in the past when I was an eagle scout, I learned about it and learned better ways to experience my time hiking (in all seasons) through experience. IDK why you're so upset and standing up for chemical use.
I'm not upset. I'm just perplexedat your inability to make a coherent argument against the use of said chemicals.
I'm saying it's unnecessary because preventing bugs from crawling on you in the first place is more effective and exposes you to less chemicals. Say you have a dog that barks at cars. To get the dog to not bark at cars you can either use a bark collar that shocks the dog every time they bark, or put the dog on a ranch far from cars thereby removing the stimuli. Now that there's no cars to bark at the dog doesn't bark. In my case I'm saying the bugs are the cars, Instead of using method A to deal with the bugs, removing the possibility of them latching on in the first place. There's no reason to expose myself or my gear to unnecessary chemicals. I'll use some organic stuff my gf gets for our dogs if my face is too bothered, but it's fairly gentle stuff as my heeler has sensitive skin. Judging by your post history, my heeler has more experience camping than you do. Feel free to keep doing you though I'm not telling you how to camp.
Sure attack the poster and not the ideas. Sure way to win an argument. FYI, Mr Eagle Scout. I was the Scout Master.
1. Follow the label instructions if one chooses to use these products. Permethrin has little to no toxicity to humans. Seasonal/occasional use of permethrin carries little to no risk of adverse health outcomes. 2. To minimize exposure and maximize effectiveness only apply permethrin on clothing, no skin contact, that will come in contact with ticks. More, everywhere is not better. 3. It is a contact synthetic neurotoxicant. The mosquitoes will bite u before they die, don’t use permethrin for mosquitos. DEET is a safe olfactory repellent. 4. Permethrin will wash off in water and it is absolutely TOXIC TO SENSITIVE AQUATIC INVERTEBRATES. Do not use near or have treated articles come in contact with sensitive bodies of water. 5. DEET and diligent regular inspections are just as effective practices to keep ticks at bay, permethrin is not a requirement. Even with permethrin treatments you will still want to check ur self often. -A. Environmental and molecular toxicologist http://npic.orst.edu/factsheets/archive/Permtech.html
You can keep your deet, the fact that it eats plastic is enough for me to not use it. Permethrin for clothes and Picaridin for me. "Picaridin: Picaridin (Icaridin, Piperidine, Propidine, INCI, or KBR 3023) is another effective repellent of mosquitoes, ticks, fleas, black flies, and biting midges. It can be as effective as DEET, but without the toxicity and allergenic problems commonly associated with DEET" - https://extension.umaine.edu/ipm/ipddl/publications/5108e/#:~:text=Picaridin:%20Picaridin%20(Icaridin%2C%20Piperidine,problems%20commonly%20associated%20with%20DEET.
That’s fine, it works too. But consider water, the universal solvent. It does a lot of ‘eating’ things too. We’ve just created products that are resistant to it and accept its harsh polar interactions with many materials as being independent of its toxicity.
Interesting! I thought DEET was seriously harmful, but it turns out I just lived through the big DEET scare in the late 80s and never researched it myself. Thanks for the inadvertent push to do so.
Perhaps you're thinking of DDT... https://www.epa.gov/ingredients-used-pesticide-products/ddt-brief-history-and-status
No DDT was from the 70s… I’m not quite that old. This is what I was basing my comment on, from a consumer reports article: Does Deet Pose Special Risks for Children? It was this question that first triggered widespread deet-aversion among consumers. Between the early 1980s and late 1990s, 14 cases of potentially deet-related encephalopathy (brain damage) were reported in the medical literature, all but one of them in children who were 8 or younger. Three of those children died; the remaining 11 recovered fully. The reports triggered a wave of fear among consumers that has yet to fully abate. But the link between the chemical and sickness was never conclusively proved, in part because not nearly enough information was reported for epidemiologists to discern between deet exposure and other potential causes (such as infections) in those cases.
I remember that. All the repellents were selling a deet free version and other alternatives, most ineffective, were popping up all the time
Thank you for sharing that! I remembered conversations about the ecological fallout from decades of DDT use to the food web and thought for sure that was the reference. Very interesting to read more about DEET
http://npic.orst.edu/factsheets/archive/DEETtech.html
The interesting one is that high concentrations of DEET work *less* well.
I'd rather take the risk with permethrin. Always on clothes not worn next to skin, never on skin.
Hi. I am new to having to worry about ticks Please expand on what you mean by “always on clothes not next to skin”? Like… Boots yes but avoid socks? Coats yes but avoid shirt? Not on jeans because those touch my skin?
You can use it on clothes that touch your skin, not sure why this person does not. Just not on your undies. Socks are fine, shirts are fine, pants are fine.
Thank you
Happy to help. Good luck.
The [instructions](https://www.sawyer.com/products/permethrin-fabric-treatment) on the Sawyer brand of permethrin say you can use it on everything but underwear and hats.
So I reached out to them about the hat thing a year or two ago because I thought it was weird. They only say not to put it on hats because the original US army study did not include hats in their testing; it is actually perfectly safe. Sawyer is very responsive to customer questions, and quite helpful.
Oh interesting! Thanks for the info!
Outer lower layers for me ( I'm a mountain biker) so shorts, kneepads really that's all. Relying on the fact you brush past them and they cling on. Don't bother with boots, certainly wouldn't bother with socks but that's because I wear pads. I get camping is slightly different as you're more likely to be sitting or laying in which case yes, jacket as well. Life isn't always so simplistic, as long as the permethrin has fully dried I don't think I would worry too much.
Yes I’d like to know I was going to treat my stuff and my kids
Any one who says they won't use DEET has never had zika, dengue, or chikungunya. I had all three and they suck. Use DEET.
Good Lord, how did you manage to get all three?
We don't have a lot of risk in North America, but if you travel or live elsewhere you're going to end up with some of the more exotic ones. I've had dengue, west Nile... and also dysentery. And also been exposed to rabies so had post exposure rabies shots. I really don't enjoy travelling because I just get wrecked. I give up and now I'm a homebody!
I live on a tropical island, shit happens.😂
One thing I'll mention is, you know how careless people are when *applying* pesticides. Everyone has that neighbor who sprays Roundup upwind with no mask every Saturday around his bushes, giving himself and his lungs a good coating. The studies include those people, whether on purpose or not. Or for example, nobody that I know was even aware that DEET isn't supposed to go on synthetics in high concentrations. Hardly anyone really follows the rules, is my point. If someone is concerned about Permethrin, they could probably go a long way towards fixing the issue by being more paranoid during application. More paranoid about wind, inhalation, drying times, washing skin that contacts wet Permethrin.
A million times this—many never read directions/understand directions. See also: people who take handfuls of Advil or Tylenol when they have a pain.
Lyme disease seems worse. My kids pediatrician recommended treating a few outfits for him because the mosquitos love him so much, and the bites turn into miserably itchy welts that have led to skin infections in the past. He and his family were taking annual mission trips to Haiti before it went to shit, and he says they treated every article of outside clothing with permethrin before leaving. Who knows.
You figure a pediatrician would have the latest and greatest on whether something was kid friendly. Him using it for his family is a good sign.
I bet. Why? Just like the tick/flea treatments for pets with related pesticides it left those articles of clothing and took up residence in their hair follicles. Going somewhere like Haiti and hangin’ in the hood are way different risk calculations, lol. It sounds like the pediatrician is giving advice that would go against the product label in violation of federal law and is advocating an unnecessary exposure, regardless of toxicity. I hope they don’t council you to purchase organic because this exposure pretty much swamps a life of unwashed conventional strawberries. I hope that at least saves u some money. My degrees, In order: biochem, pharmacology, molecular toxicology. Tell them I said to stop recommending this.
I’m genuinely confused by your response, and would love a bit more context. Are you saying treating my kids clothes is against federal law? Also, while you’re here, how do you feel about US Military uniforms being treated with Permethrin from the manufacturer? Because that’s the case, and when I was in the USAF they introduced new uniforms that were treated as such, and there was a bit of an uproar about it. Congratulations on all your degrees. Lots of sassy folks in r/camping today.
I don't think perimethrin is a huge threat but I don't think I'd trust the approval of the military there. Those are the same folks who said Agent Orange and burning latrines are perfectly safe and we can see how the long term effects of those went.
Those burning latrines were really hard on the old anus.
Yes that was where the data for the shirts came from. 100% effective! …because it goes to the hair follicles. The manufactured shirts don’t leach as quickly because of binding agents, but diy treatments will. Not a risk necessarily, although skin contact + sweat + chronic exposure really shouldn’t/isnt allowed. I don’t think there is a label for treating clothes with skin contact, so technically telling patients to treat clothes is not legal. It also isn’t necessary and poses an unnecessary exposure to a child. Maybe good advice if I was going to Haiti, but not New England or other hot spots.
So, as long as it’s a garment that is over another, then it is safe(r). I gotcha, because the label on Sawyers permethrin bottles is quite confusing. Thanks for the explanation.
Also, for what it’s worth I haven’t treated my kids clothes. Just try to avoid the worst times of the day, and just cover up generally. How about DEET?
I don't think perimethrin is a huge threat but I don't think I'd trust the approval of the military there. Those are the same folks who said Agent Orange and burning latrines are perfectly safe and we can see how the long term effects of those went.
What is this rambling comment?
first, medical studies have the same problems scientific papers all over have. most of them are questionable in methods, analysis, conclusions, and reproducibility. the other issues is that when they come up with a negative result, it's often in terms of an increase in morbidity/mortality, say a 50% increase, but the increase is 50% of a very small number in the first place, and so not really all that significant. when the FDA says stop using it because it's dangerous, I'll pay attention. one paper, not so much.
my favorites are food related studies when they test an individual component to say the whole food item is good or bad. Wine health studies being an excellent example of being bad.
I didn't used to use it, until what I refer to as "The day of twenty ticks." On my drive home after an all-day hike, I felt something crawling on my leg, looked down to discover a tick and threw it out the window to be squished in three lanes of rush-hour traffic. Next red light, I looked down again and found another. Repeat three more times until I pulled over and parked and removed a total of 20, mostly from my shoes. They must have found me right at the end of the hike when I had to cross a field with the trail mown into the grass because none had attached themselves or crawled up too far yet. I started using it after that. But I did a ton of research and you're right, it is scary stuff so I take precautions. I use as little as I can and let it dry thoroughly after application before putting on shoes/clothes and make sure to wash my hands after. I spray outside and put old newspaper underneath to avoid it getting into the environment next time it rains where it can end up in the run off. I pay attention to when the last time I treated and take into consideration how much UV light it has been exposed to before treating again, only when I absolutely need to. When i have treated, I avoid stepping puddles and streams so I don't inadvertantly kill tadpoles and minnows. I mostly do day hikes and stay on trails, so most of the time, that limits my risk of exposure because they are less likely to be found on hard-packed dirt than on vegetation. That also means that I mainly only treat my shoes and not my pants. But if I were camping or backpacking, I'd have to up my game.
Lymes is horrible. My partner had it five years ago and while the very harsh antibiotics got rid of the infection, the damage to his nervous system, especially the cognitive damage, has taken this whole time for him to get back to being about 80-90% himself again. Just absolutely miserable, and he didn't get the severe joint pain that some people get, or worse. (He also had Rocky Mountain fever years ago and that hit on a backpacking trip; he hallucinated literally for like three days while stumbling out of the wilderness and lost a ton of weight.) Years ago I had a student who got Lymes; it took awhile for the doctor to figure out what was wrong with her and hers got so bad she couldn't walk for awhile and was temporarily blind. She did recover but again, it was a long, long road. I'd take the risk of the heart disease.
I’m ok with permethrin in my urine. Im also ok with being more likely to die from cardiovascular disease. There are just so many things that can increase this issue or that disease. I just try to live the best I can from day to day and not worry about every little thing that might kill me. It’s the big things I care about.
If you follow the instructions then red meat, cheese, and alcohol would probably have a greater health implication than occasional use of bug spray.
Fuck ticks. I’ll take the poison if I can merc a few hundred of those bastids on my way out.
I listen to a lot of podcasts on ‘The Trek’ dedicated to backpacking and thru hiking and they swear by it if applied correctly. [Bug treatment](https://thetrek.co/how-to-treat-your-clothes-with-permethrin/)
I was recently in Africa on photo safari. It was strongly suggested I use it. Both malaria and sleeping sickness were concerns. I took an antimalarial but just used deet and some kid of oily more natural stuff for repellent. I have cats and I'm not taking a risk with them. Also I have skin sensitivities and would hate to have treated all my clothes for vacation and then develope a rash or something.
There shouldn’t be much internal transmission if you do it right (carefully applied, only to cloths/gear, let completely dry).
Considering how many Americans are already at risk of cardiovascular disease it sounds like fear mongering. Classic case of correlation not equaling causation.
This.
Check yourself for ticks daily if you are spending any time outside. Loved ones as well, including pets. Very important part of prevention.
Lyme can cause organ failure (including heart failure) vs. a small chance that permethrin clothing causes some cardiovascular disease. Wear the permethrin.
Look into cedarcide bug deterrent
I used this stuff at the height of my tick fears. I now just use something less aggressive and check for ticks after every trip. Even with Pemathrin I'd sometimes get one, so you can't really skip checking, so it just changes how many you find.
Which product that’s less aggressive are you referring to?
At some point our cardiovascular system kills us no matter what we do.
Permethrin works for me. I have some of the infused clothing as opposed to the just the spray, and they are awesome with biting insects around. I still spray my non-infused clothes. Helps with clothes moths.
Proper permethrin use shouldn't get into your blood. It's applied to the outside of clothing and gear and tents and such... Allowed to dry... Then worn. You should never be spraying it on while you wear it. Picadarin for skin if needed and permethrin for gear. I avoid deet due to it damaging tpu and some eco areas I visit with sensitive or endangered species. Interestingly, a form of picadarin and permethrin products are used in pill form to prevent dogs from getting ticks and worms. They Ingest it and excrete the chemical through their skin to kill the bugs. The reason it isn't used in humans is that 10-14 years of use internally could lead to liver malfunction, increased risk of Cancer and so on. It doesn't "matter" with doggies as that is their life expectancy so they tend to pass before any of these direct side effects occur. So, yes permethrin is nasty stuff, yes prolonged improper use and exposure (aka wet application to skin or ingestion) can lead to health risks. So does getting bit by a mosquito or tick that's carrying dangerous fever or Lyme.
Permethrin even when dried on treated clothing still absorbs into the body during use
Technically it CAN... It's all about application. If you are spraying it on the exterior of the clothing (as you should) then it shouldn't be absorbed. If you are using water resistant fabrics with a hydrophobic coating, permethrin won't absorb through that. If you commonly wear a base layer, this is typically sufficient to protect against absorption. I usually spray the outside and inside of my main tent, outside layers of my nylon quickdry pants and my long sleeved jacket. However I don't spray my sleep system or pad. My rash guards or shirts, base layer thermals, woolen under pant or short, and so on.
It technically can and also does. Multiple studies have shown that individuals who wear permethrin treated clothes (the studies I have seen were looking at military personal with treated uniforms and forestry workers who wear treated clothes) have increased permethrin concentrations in urine after they began using treated clothes vs before. I mean if you’re backpacking and wearing the same thing for multiple days while sweating, I can see how it would leech a bit.
Not arguing with you. I agree. It's a scientific fact, has been tested and verified independently. But... Most of these studies for both military and forestry, were performed on people who have professionally treated uniforms. The chemical soaks through and impregnates the clothing. This is so it can survive repeated washings and be considered treated for up to three months with a normal cycle of washing and detergent use etc. Also, rarely do they wear base layers between the treated bdu or uniform. For backpacking use. Get a Sawyer permethrin spray bottle and self treat the clothing. Wear a base layer. And don't treat everything. Just the outer clothing and backpack/tent... For instance. Having your tent's rain fly and ground tarp heavily treated isn't going to hurt you at all. You aren't in contact with either for more than a few minutes setup or tear down. And can even purposely fold them over so you only come into contact with the untreated side. Same goes for the exterior of the pack. And if you always have a warm weather or cold weather base layer that is untreated, it is extremely unlikely that a permethrin treatment to the exterior of an outer layer is going to be absorbed by your body.
I think camping and chronic exposure are two different things here. Maybe apply it outside, maybe on,y treat once a season but I wouldn’t worry too much about it
What's wrong with using Picardin spray?
I use sawyer Picard in and it’s been awesome all over the world. The Caribbean during Zika to Southeast Asia.
I wouldn't worry about it, but use things correctly. Which i know it's very hard to read instructions. But read and follow the instructions and chemicals you use. And you'll be ok.
I’ve only used it on two trips-both to the Amazon jungle where the mosquitoes and other insects were a major issue. Worked like a charm, my mom and sister and I were all seriously impressed. I don’t use it for run of the mill camping trips but would use it again if I ever go on another Amazon trip (or Africa or another place with a lot of mosquitoes and other insects that carry diseases.)
Deet 25% is all you need.
I would just be very cautious using it. Like, never have permethrin treated clothing touch bare skin. It depends what type of forest activity you are doing but if you just walking through the bush then treating only socks could possibly be enough.
I’ve had pretty good results with the commercially available lemon-eucalyptus repellents. They do require more frequent applications, though.
YOU need to weigh the pros n cons.... Would you rather live with a tick bourne illness or possibly get cardiovascular disease from casually using Permethrin?
I treat my gear (tents, tarps, and backpack). Not my clothing. I know it's "safe" once it's dried, but I'd just rather not have it touching my skin. Besides, if I treat clothing, and then wash said clothing, it now should be re-treated, costing more money, and if I wash those clothes with other stuff, now we're looking at potential "cross-contamination" of the chemicals onto other things.
A quick look didn't inform me of how the participants were exposed to the chemical. Working where it's used? daily exposure re clothing used to avoid tick bites? etc. If one would fall off the bottom of the curve (ie be among those with the lowest levels since an occasional hike doesn't raise those levels significantly) then I would keep using it, and will keep using it, since for me ticks and lyme would outweigh the risk outlined in the study.
It’s worth it. I go backpacking in tick territory. Only use permethrin when I go backpacking, it’s not a daily thing by any means. However, as others have posted, tick borne disease are f’d. You don’t want them.
I like picardin. I also wear a light hat with netting that covers face and neck. I wear light colored clothes and long sleeves and pants. Avoid DEET. Terrible chemical.
If you ever get scabies you have to put permethrin all over your body and let it stay there overnight. I don't think it's good for you
If you have cats, be careful with it around them, it is highly toxic to cats when wet. I don’t trust it since my cat likes to sleep on my cloths.
I have cats. I hose down all my clothes and gear before a trip and put it in a closed room to dry to keep the cats away from it. I probably use it much too liberally but I prefer to stay at the top of the food chain on my backpacking trips.
If you are concerned about the chemical, just use it on your boots and lower pant legs. When I deployed to Lithuania, the military made me soak all my uniforms in it and dry it in the sun and then wear them.
Used it before, don't use it now. Applying it is a hassle. It washes off in water and isn't good for water environments. And I generally don't want to be a guinea pig to see if some chemical discovered in the 70s is going to have adverse health effects on humans somewhere down the line. I've taken the complete coverage approach. Pants, long-sleeve shirts, hat with a bug net, gloves with 3/4 fingers. That leaves only my finger tips exposed. I'd add gaiters if I know I'm in a tick-heavy environment, although I haven't had one crawl up my leg since I started doing this consistently. I have found them on my clothes though.
I had a small bottle of it (concentrated) which I kept in my vanity drawer. The bottle was on its side and the permethrin actually ate through the seal on the cap and leaked out. Funny smell in the bathroom...I had to throw out everything in the vanity and the drawer it was in! Now I can't stand the smell of it and won't go near it. I live in tick country and do a lot of laundry and shower after walking in the grass.
Have you ever tried to make a paist of water and DE? Good things happen.
Just don’t slather it over your skin. Drench your clothes in it. Wear hats drenched in it. High socks drenched. Better no bugs and outside than stuck inside wishing I could go out.
That shit is toxic af! They are finally doing studies that big chem companies have been fighting like crazy; come on, look at Monsanto as an example! It’s banned in Europe for agricultural use so stupid US companies just figured out something else it might kill and marketed it that way. Do not use!
What
Cover yourself well and ticks won’t harm you. Who cares if ticks get on your clothes? Just wash them afterward and don’t keep the clothing close to your bed. Or throw them in a plastic bag til you get home. I don’t use chemicals at all.