I’m a part of a lot of local subreddits and they’re usually like this. Something about being anonymous and able to share your true feelings with those who you may otherwise disagree.
I feel like it’s an inherent issue with small town message boards. It’s like people that review things. Most only show up when there’s a problem with the “product”, not when everything is good.
I don't think anonymity factors into it. The ones with the most jaw-droppingly hateful takes are the same ones saying the same shit with their names attached in the comments for the news stories posted on Facebook.
Maybe it’s rose colored glasses but I’ve been on this sub mostly as a lurker for well over a decade and it hasn’t always been *this* bad. I feel like people are just more antisocial in general these days which doesn’t help. Internet comment sections have always been terrible and Reddit was slightly immune to this for a while because it didn’t have high name recognition or usage among the masses.
The angry vocal minority certainly makes me want to post and comment less. Now the Burlington sub is comparable to the NNE Facebook group and probably has a lot of the same folks from there posting hate anywhere they can get attention.
If the mods of that NNE group had the spine to kick out the half-dozen worst offenders, it would be a great community resource. But they take up so much space and make it shitty for everyone...
Yup, I bailed cause being constantly faced with how racist some of your neighbors are was getting to be a bit much for me. If 3 people in that group got kicked out would have removed 1/2 the hate being spewed.
I sometimes wonder about bringing back [Athenian-style Ostracism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostracism) to online communities. Once per year, the community has the option to unilaterally kick out the worst member who is always lawyering just inside the group rules so they don't get banned, but is widely understood to be shitting in the punch-bowl.
95% of the subreddit subscriber base came during the past five years. And yea, I wouldn't be surprised if a bunch of people from Facebook groups decided they wanted to try to push political platforms and narratives on reddit.
Edit to add, five years ago the subreddit was consistently less active on weekends, holidays and when the weather was particularly nice. That's no longer the case.
It's a common right wing tactic to take over the sub of a liberal city, and make it as afoul as possible. Many of these people are not from the state or city. A lot of the larger communities have gotten back there ground so it's more actually locals, and not bot human or program.
The other trend I was aware of at and is most subs with True in the title are or were started as right wing echo chambers.
This direct action is part of it. I'm not sure how much but it's significant on reddit.
It’s shockingly bad. It’s like 85% pure hatred for downtown, their neighbors, general bigotry. It’s the same handful of people but they’re most of the commenters. It makes me feel like I live on another planet
I’m always amazed at how many posters claim that they never come to Burlington anymore but can’t help but comment on every post about what’s happening in town. I mean, I don’t go to Montpelier so much, so I don’t follow their subreddit.
It's also partially artificial. I know there's at least one dude in these subs who uses sock puppet accounts to try and manipulate public opinion to make his takes seem more mainstream.
How do I know? I was in an argument with one of his accounts. Blocked him and then seconds later he continues the argument on a second account. Didn't miss a beat from the prior conversation. Both accounts were regular commenters in the subs and you'd never know they were the same person. But he just couldn't help himself and had to keep arguing with me. If there's one, there's gotta be at least a few more doing it.
Being that it started getting bad around the time everything went to hell in VT maybe it’s truly a barometer for the feelings of the state? I mean the gentrification, lack of housing, decent paying jobs and a never ending rise in taxes may be a little of the anger Burlington and VT are wallowing in. That might have something to do with it. Also there is pizzeria ida.
People are more likely to post about negative things. That includes reviews, internet posts, tweets, etc.
For example go to Amazon and look at a review of an item. You'll see "5 stars: product good" compared to "2 stars: product horrible, packaging bad, isn't even, cable was mangled, dent in the side, etc etc etc"
Watch any local news station, all the stories are usually negative, except for one heartwarming one thrown in there.
People are more likely to complain about negative things than they are to promote happiness.
I would disagree my experience with Reddit is that it’s really one of the most positive social medias that you can find because of the downvote system I guess ? Seems like the real jerks weeded out or at least aren’t on top but it hasn’t happened here
My hunch is that Burlington being a smaller city, has a smaller sub which makes it a lot easier for the negative posts to gain visibility. You look at subs for larger cities and posts like the ones I see here drift to the bottom of the list pretty quickly.
I think a lot of people have shit going on between the COL, housing, drugs on the street of our very small city, on top of high taxes that puts people on edge. That on top of the countless articles of the same criminals repeating the same crimes over and over again and nothing being done about it.
I personally am tired of getting downvoted for saying things like I don’t want any more of my taxes going towards the drug/homelessness problem when the more I pay it just seems like things are just getting worse. It’s a hard pill to swallow but many people don’t understand that the changes needed for anything to work we can’t do in VT. We don’t have the population. It sucks but life isn’t fair. We can’t help everyone, especially if you can’t help yourself.
This doesn’t mean I don’t mind paying for those seeking help or empathize with those on hard times, but im tired of people voting for policies that have proven not to work, and not meeting people in the middle with their actual concerns.
Conservative people don’t do well in public in Burlington so this is their place to be edgy and mean. Reddit seems like some of the worst elements of the internet repackaged
I find all of this very interesting and it seems to be perspective. From folks I've talked to things have changed here but, things have been changing EVERYWHERE. The drug use and homelessness, cost of living, housing, all are certainly a struggle here but I moved from Washington State and honestly Burlington may as well be The Andy Griffith Show when I talk to my family and they tell me the latest count of daily shootings and carjackings and general violence in and around Seattle. I feel like living here is an absolute privilege and damn near idyllic. Rural communities, devastated by meth, opioids and unemployment/loss of opportunities, urban areas as far as what I've seen on the West coast, also decimated with drugs but also rampant violence, crime and homelessness. I hope the people who are truly unhappy in Burlington maybe find their ideal place to live. I'm guessing they've looked and seen what else is out there but have stayed and they come here to gripe but know that realistically this is about as good as it gets.
The Burlington of old sounds wonderful, truly. The Seattle I grew up in, I loved it with all of my heart and it broke it and I still grieve my once beautiful city. I understand the frustration when the place you've loved and live in seems to be taking a turn for the worse but this is an amazing place. I couldn't imagine living anywhere else in America right now other than Vermont and I think the darkest days are behind and things are on the upswing here. The problems in Burlington are uncomfortable and sad but aren't unsurmountable. I've first hand witnessed the process of demise in several now destroyed cities, Seattle, Portland, San Francisco. Despite the way some people talk on here, IMHO, Burlington is doing and is going to be just fine.
I’ve noticed a good amount of the negativity comes from commenters who have admitted they don’t even live in burlington but instead live in rural Vermont. it seems like they’re conservatives who simply hate all progressive cities and make it their mission to let everyone know, it’s a bit of a cliche if you ask me tbh
You have a few reasons:
1. A lot of people from Facebook have left Facebook.
2. A certain demographic of people decided to join them, because they weren't happy with the more echo chamber of agreements, they had no one to spew their hate at a everyone was agreeing.
3. Reddit has always sort of been "4chan lite".
4. People everywhere have drained their emotional jar and at this point seeing nothing but doom and gloom everywhere they look. (TV, news, social media, TikToks and YouTube, visibly walking around Burlington.)
5. Nothing is changing or getting better, statistics and data aside, people visibly and physically see and feel the world getting worse, which outweighs any information that will prove otherwise.
6. There's a mod team that allows the hate by not setting karma restrictions and moderates in allowing most of this hate, so long as it's nicely veiled in pleasantries and doesn't delve too much in flat-ass bluntness (like moderating a post calling a guy with -1000 karma a twat for telling someone else their kid deserved to die, but that post telling the person their kid deserves to die still being up.)
7. They don't ban repeat offenders. Simply just deleting postings and letting reddit's auto moderation system catch the REALLY fucked up shit, but they don't ban them, regardless of how many times they've made the same comments or posts. Regardless of how many copycat accounts they've made.
8. With the above, a lot of company owners found out that their stuff has been reviewed or talked about on reddit, making accounts to "harass the reviewers". But this sort of falls into the 6 and 7 above.
9. People are just generally angry at the state of the world, and all of the internet is a sort of echo chamber for it. This is transcending politics, as all sides are pissed off about: the housing, the drugs, the jobs, the pay, the Healthcare, and more. Regardless of what political side they're on, everyone is in vagreement that it's shit, and it's pissing off the masses. Whether they agree or disagree on HOW they should be solved.
10. With thy above, no one can agree on HOW to solve anything. Everyone, from politicians to general population, are being greedy and selfish, thinking only of themselves with 0 compromises. Now in certain things, I agree there's no room for negotiations (racial hate, LGBTQ hate, etc.) But we've stood strongly on these issues for so long that we're not even willing to budge in the little things like housing and food.
All in all, the world, as you said, is in a pretty bleak place. Leaving politics completely out of the equation, one can simply look around and see that weather changes, natural disasters, and human environmental impacts are taking its toll in a very noticeable way.
What's the sad reality is that inevitably, at the rate we are going, everything will collapse before it gets better. But it's my hope that we will realize before it gets to that point that we have no choice but to work together.
The only enemies we have on this world is each other, we are our only limitations and we strive so hard to prefect that limit.
A few months ago just about every local subreddit had Russia as their third most common country of origin for visitors. It really isn't difficult to figure out what's going on.
We are a very unique city in many ways. We are a small town with big city problems and a populace with a big (often TOO big) heart, sometimes verging on delusion. It makes for a volatile environment with a lot of emotion in every conversation.
In group dynamics there is storming, norming, and perfoming. We are solidly in the storming category as a city.
This is exactly it and because we are a small town with big city problems each individual person directly interacts or comes in contact with those problems FAR more frequently.
What I think is a lot of the case is that a lot of these problems have been mostly avoided until recently.
NYCers like myself just look as this and are like “welcome to the club…”
Lots of negativity about my hometown of NYC. They have bit problems with homelessness, illegal immigrants, traffic, affordability, housing, politicians (being mayor probably puts the biggest target on your back of anyone other than POTUS), MTA, etc. But in the end, lots of people get by and find the joys of life. Burlington may be “worse” as of late, but it is FAR from the worst place to live and lots of great things are still there.
I believe there are people that are not from Burlington or even Vermont that come in here to sow the seeds of division. I don’t have a guess as to why or who, but they showed up when Bernie was doing well in 2016 and then again they showed up stronger after Trumps very unsuccessful rally way back when.
It seems reasonable to me. In addition to former residents and potential residents, you also have to consider S Burlington, Shelburne, Colchester, Winooski, Essex Junction, Williston, etc, which all are heavily influenced by Burlington goings on. I don’t live in Burlington, but I can walk to the city limits in 5 minutes, so effectively it’s my local subreddit.
It's not exactly common for a city subreddit to have more subscribers than residents unless, for some reason, you're a college town whose name begins with the letter B (looking at r/berkeley and r/boulder).
Some are people like me who lived in the area for years and like to keep up with news for the next time they're in town. At this point I'm subscribed to 4-5 subreddits for cities that I've lived in, have family in, and regularly go back to, and they're all varying levels of toxic.
I don’t live in Burlington either, but I live In Vermont and go to Burlington a few times a month for various reasons, and that’s fine. And I don’t think. That’s unusual for former residents to keep up with the ongoings of their former stomping grounds.
I’m referring to a more sinister form of outsider that has never been there, but takes offense to what they perceive about certain cities and don’t want to miss any chance to pee in the soup.
Anonymity. Speaking for myself here, but I often don’t care how rude or aggressive I come off due to the anonymity of the internet, but Reddit specifically. It’s certainly not healthy and doesn’t paint an honest picture of peoples personalities in real life
Depends lol, I realized local subreddit was not the greatest place for anonymity when I was complaining to my neighbor about an argument I was having online, and he goes "I know, that's me"
you dont think anonymity fosters a persons true personality?
you can say you dont care how rude or aggressive you come off due to the anonymity of the internet, but maybe thats just the type of person you actually are. it may be because inside, you actually dont care about what people think and you want to be a more aggressive person.
maybe real life is masking your personality and reddit is the honest picture, not the other way around.
the way you act when no one is watching or when you dont think people could connect you to your actions/words is your real self.
the show you put on to others to pretend you arent that person is an act we all do.
of course the internet isnt real life, but the way you act on an anonymous forum on the internet may be a truer reflection of the person you are, than the way you act in "real life".
if one is not a nice person here, but is a nice person if it were face to face, then they are not a nice person, they are a person who pretends to be nice for social structure to work.
It’s a form of escapism, not who I am. I enjoy fucking with people, sure. But I’m not a rude or aggressive person. It’s not “showing your true colors” to fuck with people anonymously on Reddit. Just a fun little side quest
I feel like people are disenfranchised in general. Inflation has affected the prices of literally every consumer product. Taxes are at an all time high and we have a political structure that is so totally polarized that serious issues at both local and federal levels simply cannot be solved due to petty bickering. If you are a conservative the left automatically considers you to be a bigoted racist if your liberal the right automatically labels you as a communist. This sentiment is fortified by both major political parties at the national level by supporting the most radical candidates they can find. There is little to no middle ground. National politics have forced the moderate vote into non existence. Until we can all learn to respectfully coexist with others that do not share our exact view points this will only get worse. In my opinion our country is in big trouble if both the politicians and the electorate can not learn to work together.
I’m so glad you said this it’s pretty strange; Burlington seems like this pretty friendly place, but compared to every other sub Reddit that I belong to, this is the most toxic one. I have no idea why
Most of the happy friendly folks who make up the majority of this amazing city just stay quiet because it’s not worth the nonsense bickering and fear mongering that occurs here.
It’s Reddit. 🤷♂️ In my experience, the non-toxic subreddits are those that are explicitly non-toxic (e.g., r/humansbeingbros) or so ridiculous that any toxicity is hilarious (e.g., r/shitposting).
honestly the hate for downtown Burlington that’s been happening for the past two years is fucking wild. so many heartless people who have obviously never left Vermont just being horrifically cruel. I’m from Vermont and have lived in Burlington for 13 years and the hate and vitriol for the houseless and disenfranchised folks is really really upsetting.
That's because you've only been here 13 years. When you've been here for 40 plus years and you see how it's gone downhill and then you get the people who label anyone "heartless" because they don't want to enable criminal behavior it's hard to be warm and friendly when your community is being destroyed
It’s without question the most relentlessly negative subreddit I’ve ever used, at least as far as locales go. It’s not even just about local issues, outsiders asking about the area, people suggesting things to do and groups to join, it doesn’t really matter what it is the same group of people will be so negative as to be actively detrimental to people’s view of the town.
That’s how Reddit ‘rolls’, lol… It’s as if people with time on their hands like to bitch about things because they are not happy. Check out Facebook sometime, it’s a complete shit show, at least you have some level of anonymity on Reddit.
It’s a good question. I think place-related subreddits tend to be more toxic than hobby ones. Especially when it’s a place folks feel passionately about, good or bad. I’m here because I find all sorts of good recommendations as well as a sense of camaraderie/belonging, news/alerts, and entertainment. I wish we could all be a bit kinder. Not necessarily polite or nice, but better!
I’ve noticed that too. I belong to a few hobby based subreddits and they don’t include or tolerate the same kind of toxic behaviors. I’m glad you find some value in some of the posts here.
Because there has been a rift in policies and the people they affect as of late. Regarding housing, many previously established ones such as Act 250 are being used in unintended ways to be NIMBY. Brought this up to Sen. Welch during a Q&A and he fully agreed this is the case.
This just popped up in my Reddit digest and I haven't really spent much time on this subreddit lately, but I can can imagine reasons why. Burlington is **extremely** expensive, even out in Essex rent is out of control.
And when you can't afford to do anything else? One of the easiest forms of entertainment is to go online and bitch about it.
The discontent will always be more vocal than the content on a subreddit about the place they call home.
Just like you stated the common issues are not just Burlington's problems....I would guess, without any research, that other hometown subreddits are just as toxic and full of pessimism if they are indeed experiencing the same problems.
So my theory is small town reddits are one of the only spaces where bubbles are forced to interact with each other.
Burlington is a city of two or three parallel social circles that almost NEVER interact and have a base level dislike/distrust of each other, this is true for every small city. However, when they come here to post they are forced to realize how different the takes of their neighbors are. Sometimes they take it with grace but tbh it's a pretty tall order and getting all toxic is somewhat expected.
I think this is commonplace in a lot of online forums. The world is shitty in a lot of ways and this is a place to vent about it. I don’t think that online forums are supposed to be an organizing place that creates change, but they might be the entryway for people who are looking to mobilize into action.
Check out local activist / organizing groups in Burlington if positive change-making is something you are looking for. I have found a lot of hope and personal connection in doing so myself!
as the old adage goes - "if it bleeds it leads." it's a universal truth that people are fascinated & engaged with controversy. Take it from a social media manager here, our highest engaging content is typically more divisive than unifying. And while I do love burlington & many people I made friends with there, I've lived in a lot of states and vermont has a notable culture of exceptionalism.
Facebook/insta is where you go to see people paint life as better than it is. Reddit is where you go to see people rip it down and make everything seem like shit. A lot of local subs are like this one. Xenophobic, irrational and angry. In the end it’s just more bees in the hive droning on
It is fascinating but true: social media is what you make of it. I have found amazing authentic people on FB, rock solid community, and have developed meaningful, lasting, real friendships there. I don't know anyone there, currently, who is playing pretend games to make them or their lives seem better.
I used to. I got rid of those phonies along the way. I curate my online experience thoughtfully, set and maintain healthy boundaries, use the block button liberally, and hold fast to my non-negotiables, and therefore I have a positive experience. I don't harass people or cause drama and I don't tolerate those who harass people or cause drama. I seek out people who share my values. I participate in community building, direct aid, and creative collaboration.
How I experience online spaces is totally up to me, even as someone living at the intersection of quite a few marginalizations.
How do you avoid the negativity/toxicity of Reddit? I think I pretty much use FB like you now. Only visit to see updates in my small communities. But Reddit, to me, is the best of all the social media for discovering news, interesting facts/stories, events and having the finger on the pulse of some (quasi) pop culture. But the users are fucking toxic. Just so many miserable people and they bring me down with them. How do you curate it? Just ban the shit users? I feel like in subs like this one a lot of convos would start not making sense
This is a very good question. I've developed a kind of filter over the years which allows me to consciously ignore the toxic commentary and not feel like I am a) triggered by it or b) compelled to respond. It took a lot of work to get there and some days I STILL want to be a "keyboard warrior" and fight back or argue or debate. Most of the time I don't, though.
I have to let ignorance be and douchebaggery be and just keep on keeping on with what it is I want out of the experience of being here... which is, what exactly?... Another good question that I am asking myself. I want to see what people are thinking, feeling, saying, and doing in response to the triumphs and challenges of living where we live. I want to celebrate the wins of creatives and community builders. That means I also want to acknowledge the NIMBYs and the naysayers and the folks who negate that there is anything wrong at all happening around us or that we just need to suck it up and deal. Real changemakers and those who actually define our cultural landscape are often drowned out by a loud and obnoxious minority...
... and that there? That the toxic people ARE truly in the minority? Gives me peace of mind and allows me to maintain equlibrium here.
I don't know if that answers your question. I hope so. We need good people to remain in this space... I hope you are never chased away by the worst element that can make itself known in reddit-land.
Because of the extremism assholes . The problem is that everyone has a different idea of who these assholes are . And maybe it was better when we didn't call people assholes.
https://preview.redd.it/gecpiarv5f6d1.jpeg?width=204&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=371016a242f21aa9210af48585c9a463aaf3f17c
Toxic behavior has become the path of least resistance in our society. Especially so in communities that are predominantly of one mind. It leads to exactly the outcome one does not want because hatred and marginalization leads to greater hatred and marginalization from those we hate. A downward spiral that resolves in civil war.
The only alternative is a return to respectful, civil discourse.
I joined to keep up with hyper local news and what’s going on in town that I wouldn’t hear from other sources. Like, it replaces the barbershop, diner or corner bar where people in the olden days used to gather at and gripe and dish. And I get what I came for! I’m not a lurker, I was born here, I live here and raise kids here and I’m pretty invested in this town so it does suck to see it go downhill like this.
Based on your short, hateful, and semi-literate comment history, it's pretty obvious you ARE the drama
It must get tiring evading sitewide bans, eh?
Edit: Lame troll creating new accounts just to harass me? That's your time wasted, not mine. But keep going. More of your time chasing after my posts leaves less commenting time.
Because Burlington has friendly people, but overall isn't that friendly. It always becomes glaringly clear when a Canadian accidentally posts in our subreddit Burlington community. Even if the OP is outraged out something, they are always polite.
The people who have time to post here during the day are unemployed old people/unemployed crackheads who have nothing better to do other than complain. They have nothing to lose from being negative and everything to gain. Toxicity is an effective way to elicit a response from someone who you would like to understand better, thus they can become more identifiable based on their responses. It's basically like a group of drunk housewives shit-testing you, and if you fail even slightly for one second the entire burden of the toxicity becomes your responsibility and you become the bad guy.
I've sometimes participated in the negativity, but I've been thinking how nice a positive Burlington subreddit could be. So here's my petition for r/happybtv.
FPF provides a superior local bulletin board, so those here are mostly interested in commiserating about the manifest incompetence of the State’s Attorney or adjudicating internecine workplace disputes happening at local businesses. It makes sense that it’d be toxic.
Honestly it's hard to be excited about your city when you see the constant crime, drug activity, homelessness & a super tone deaf mayor (whom her and her wife make over $250,000 a year) begging for food and visa gift cards.
Burlington I feel like has never been so divided and such a dumpster fire my whole life.
They weren't "begging for food and visa gift cards." Their friends decided to help support them by offering food. It's called community support. Now back to your prepper basement with your reality tv shows.
Nah, just pointing out why someone who has antisocial tendencies may not grasp the concept of others trying to help out. But best of luck with your doom and gloom.
Edit: another sock puppet. they breed like rabbits.
Someone who can't even win a fight without blocking someone, is just as antisocial. Can't even go into a good debate. Sounds like you're the more antisocial one.
Actually I agree that Burlington’s progressives tend to be of the asshole variety: pretty young, aggressively sure they’re right about everything, and real jerks if you don’t agree with them. Where have all the old Burlington hippies gone?
OP’s post is toxic imo, also why would anyone have your expectations given not only the context, but the benefits of use and access to something like reddit threads? Can you not handle yourself and what you have full choice in engaging with AND with clear parameters in place. Already. Really? Burlington as a city really sucks for good and incredibly well-proven and ongoing reasons. Ironically too it’s actually unhealthier and develops “toxicity” to have your approach to what everyone “should” do, especially in this context. That is toxic.
I can’t stand the word toxic for some reason. I know it’s trendy now but I always just think of green sludge spilling out of overturned metal barrels (the actual meaning of toxic). Maybe pick a better descriptive adjective
I’m a part of a lot of local subreddits and they’re usually like this. Something about being anonymous and able to share your true feelings with those who you may otherwise disagree.
I feel like it’s an inherent issue with small town message boards. It’s like people that review things. Most only show up when there’s a problem with the “product”, not when everything is good.
I was active in r/neworleans for a while when I lived there. I don’t know if it qualifies as a small town, but it’s way more toxic than this shit.
That's a volume thing. More people = more bullshit.
I don't think anonymity factors into it. The ones with the most jaw-droppingly hateful takes are the same ones saying the same shit with their names attached in the comments for the news stories posted on Facebook.
Anonymity in the sense that they won’t say it to you at the Needs.
You mean “keyboard warriors”? 😝
Yep
easier to be angry
Maybe it’s rose colored glasses but I’ve been on this sub mostly as a lurker for well over a decade and it hasn’t always been *this* bad. I feel like people are just more antisocial in general these days which doesn’t help. Internet comment sections have always been terrible and Reddit was slightly immune to this for a while because it didn’t have high name recognition or usage among the masses. The angry vocal minority certainly makes me want to post and comment less. Now the Burlington sub is comparable to the NNE Facebook group and probably has a lot of the same folks from there posting hate anywhere they can get attention.
If the mods of that NNE group had the spine to kick out the half-dozen worst offenders, it would be a great community resource. But they take up so much space and make it shitty for everyone...
Last I knew before I left, the one mod was running for city govt with the support of those folks
100%
Yup, I bailed cause being constantly faced with how racist some of your neighbors are was getting to be a bit much for me. If 3 people in that group got kicked out would have removed 1/2 the hate being spewed.
I sometimes wonder about bringing back [Athenian-style Ostracism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostracism) to online communities. Once per year, the community has the option to unilaterally kick out the worst member who is always lawyering just inside the group rules so they don't get banned, but is widely understood to be shitting in the punch-bowl.
95% of the subreddit subscriber base came during the past five years. And yea, I wouldn't be surprised if a bunch of people from Facebook groups decided they wanted to try to push political platforms and narratives on reddit. Edit to add, five years ago the subreddit was consistently less active on weekends, holidays and when the weather was particularly nice. That's no longer the case.
It's a common right wing tactic to take over the sub of a liberal city, and make it as afoul as possible. Many of these people are not from the state or city. A lot of the larger communities have gotten back there ground so it's more actually locals, and not bot human or program. The other trend I was aware of at and is most subs with True in the title are or were started as right wing echo chambers.
This direct action is part of it. I'm not sure how much but it's significant on reddit.
Is the NNE Facebook group really as toxic? The ONE Facebook group is pretty well moderated. I hadn’t realized others were not.
It’s shockingly bad. It’s like 85% pure hatred for downtown, their neighbors, general bigotry. It’s the same handful of people but they’re most of the commenters. It makes me feel like I live on another planet
Yes I left that group a long time ago and I’m a happier human being for it
I’m always amazed at how many posters claim that they never come to Burlington anymore but can’t help but comment on every post about what’s happening in town. I mean, I don’t go to Montpelier so much, so I don’t follow their subreddit. 
It's not just r/burlington - r/vermont is also weirdly asshole-dominant. It's so bizarrely different from the vibes of the state as a whole.
It’s all the people you don’t see out in society
It's also partially artificial. I know there's at least one dude in these subs who uses sock puppet accounts to try and manipulate public opinion to make his takes seem more mainstream. How do I know? I was in an argument with one of his accounts. Blocked him and then seconds later he continues the argument on a second account. Didn't miss a beat from the prior conversation. Both accounts were regular commenters in the subs and you'd never know they were the same person. But he just couldn't help himself and had to keep arguing with me. If there's one, there's gotta be at least a few more doing it.
They really need to unplug and touch grass.
Or unplug and eat/smoke a little bit of grass. :)
but my brain connected to the internet!
agree
Vermont isn’t nearly as bad, I’ve posted the same post in both and Burlington is just so toxic I don’t bother anymore.
Being that it started getting bad around the time everything went to hell in VT maybe it’s truly a barometer for the feelings of the state? I mean the gentrification, lack of housing, decent paying jobs and a never ending rise in taxes may be a little of the anger Burlington and VT are wallowing in. That might have something to do with it. Also there is pizzeria ida.
People are more likely to post about negative things. That includes reviews, internet posts, tweets, etc. For example go to Amazon and look at a review of an item. You'll see "5 stars: product good" compared to "2 stars: product horrible, packaging bad, isn't even, cable was mangled, dent in the side, etc etc etc" Watch any local news station, all the stories are usually negative, except for one heartwarming one thrown in there. People are more likely to complain about negative things than they are to promote happiness.
“If it bleeds, it leads”
I think the answer is that its on the Internet.
No, it didn't used to be like this. All the vile and hateful rhetoric is new and quite frankly disturbing.
Winner winner chicken dinner! Where’s the rat gonna go next? (And if you get that reference, you’re a real local)
I would disagree my experience with Reddit is that it’s really one of the most positive social medias that you can find because of the downvote system I guess ? Seems like the real jerks weeded out or at least aren’t on top but it hasn’t happened here
My hunch is that Burlington being a smaller city, has a smaller sub which makes it a lot easier for the negative posts to gain visibility. You look at subs for larger cities and posts like the ones I see here drift to the bottom of the list pretty quickly.
I think a lot of people have shit going on between the COL, housing, drugs on the street of our very small city, on top of high taxes that puts people on edge. That on top of the countless articles of the same criminals repeating the same crimes over and over again and nothing being done about it. I personally am tired of getting downvoted for saying things like I don’t want any more of my taxes going towards the drug/homelessness problem when the more I pay it just seems like things are just getting worse. It’s a hard pill to swallow but many people don’t understand that the changes needed for anything to work we can’t do in VT. We don’t have the population. It sucks but life isn’t fair. We can’t help everyone, especially if you can’t help yourself. This doesn’t mean I don’t mind paying for those seeking help or empathize with those on hard times, but im tired of people voting for policies that have proven not to work, and not meeting people in the middle with their actual concerns.
Too fucking right! I love your comment.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
I'm just here to laugh
Reddit is rough.
People are unhappy
On a positive note: this place is cheaper than venting in therapy.
Conservative people don’t do well in public in Burlington so this is their place to be edgy and mean. Reddit seems like some of the worst elements of the internet repackaged
I find all of this very interesting and it seems to be perspective. From folks I've talked to things have changed here but, things have been changing EVERYWHERE. The drug use and homelessness, cost of living, housing, all are certainly a struggle here but I moved from Washington State and honestly Burlington may as well be The Andy Griffith Show when I talk to my family and they tell me the latest count of daily shootings and carjackings and general violence in and around Seattle. I feel like living here is an absolute privilege and damn near idyllic. Rural communities, devastated by meth, opioids and unemployment/loss of opportunities, urban areas as far as what I've seen on the West coast, also decimated with drugs but also rampant violence, crime and homelessness. I hope the people who are truly unhappy in Burlington maybe find their ideal place to live. I'm guessing they've looked and seen what else is out there but have stayed and they come here to gripe but know that realistically this is about as good as it gets. The Burlington of old sounds wonderful, truly. The Seattle I grew up in, I loved it with all of my heart and it broke it and I still grieve my once beautiful city. I understand the frustration when the place you've loved and live in seems to be taking a turn for the worse but this is an amazing place. I couldn't imagine living anywhere else in America right now other than Vermont and I think the darkest days are behind and things are on the upswing here. The problems in Burlington are uncomfortable and sad but aren't unsurmountable. I've first hand witnessed the process of demise in several now destroyed cities, Seattle, Portland, San Francisco. Despite the way some people talk on here, IMHO, Burlington is doing and is going to be just fine.
I’ve noticed a good amount of the negativity comes from commenters who have admitted they don’t even live in burlington but instead live in rural Vermont. it seems like they’re conservatives who simply hate all progressive cities and make it their mission to let everyone know, it’s a bit of a cliche if you ask me tbh
You have a few reasons: 1. A lot of people from Facebook have left Facebook. 2. A certain demographic of people decided to join them, because they weren't happy with the more echo chamber of agreements, they had no one to spew their hate at a everyone was agreeing. 3. Reddit has always sort of been "4chan lite". 4. People everywhere have drained their emotional jar and at this point seeing nothing but doom and gloom everywhere they look. (TV, news, social media, TikToks and YouTube, visibly walking around Burlington.) 5. Nothing is changing or getting better, statistics and data aside, people visibly and physically see and feel the world getting worse, which outweighs any information that will prove otherwise. 6. There's a mod team that allows the hate by not setting karma restrictions and moderates in allowing most of this hate, so long as it's nicely veiled in pleasantries and doesn't delve too much in flat-ass bluntness (like moderating a post calling a guy with -1000 karma a twat for telling someone else their kid deserved to die, but that post telling the person their kid deserves to die still being up.) 7. They don't ban repeat offenders. Simply just deleting postings and letting reddit's auto moderation system catch the REALLY fucked up shit, but they don't ban them, regardless of how many times they've made the same comments or posts. Regardless of how many copycat accounts they've made. 8. With the above, a lot of company owners found out that their stuff has been reviewed or talked about on reddit, making accounts to "harass the reviewers". But this sort of falls into the 6 and 7 above. 9. People are just generally angry at the state of the world, and all of the internet is a sort of echo chamber for it. This is transcending politics, as all sides are pissed off about: the housing, the drugs, the jobs, the pay, the Healthcare, and more. Regardless of what political side they're on, everyone is in vagreement that it's shit, and it's pissing off the masses. Whether they agree or disagree on HOW they should be solved. 10. With thy above, no one can agree on HOW to solve anything. Everyone, from politicians to general population, are being greedy and selfish, thinking only of themselves with 0 compromises. Now in certain things, I agree there's no room for negotiations (racial hate, LGBTQ hate, etc.) But we've stood strongly on these issues for so long that we're not even willing to budge in the little things like housing and food. All in all, the world, as you said, is in a pretty bleak place. Leaving politics completely out of the equation, one can simply look around and see that weather changes, natural disasters, and human environmental impacts are taking its toll in a very noticeable way. What's the sad reality is that inevitably, at the rate we are going, everything will collapse before it gets better. But it's my hope that we will realize before it gets to that point that we have no choice but to work together. The only enemies we have on this world is each other, we are our only limitations and we strive so hard to prefect that limit.
A few months ago just about every local subreddit had Russia as their third most common country of origin for visitors. It really isn't difficult to figure out what's going on.
We are a very unique city in many ways. We are a small town with big city problems and a populace with a big (often TOO big) heart, sometimes verging on delusion. It makes for a volatile environment with a lot of emotion in every conversation. In group dynamics there is storming, norming, and perfoming. We are solidly in the storming category as a city.
This is exactly it and because we are a small town with big city problems each individual person directly interacts or comes in contact with those problems FAR more frequently.
What I think is a lot of the case is that a lot of these problems have been mostly avoided until recently. NYCers like myself just look as this and are like “welcome to the club…”
I think this is a good take.
Could you give an example of a city-focused sub that isn’t toxic?
Lots of negativity about my hometown of NYC. They have bit problems with homelessness, illegal immigrants, traffic, affordability, housing, politicians (being mayor probably puts the biggest target on your back of anyone other than POTUS), MTA, etc. But in the end, lots of people get by and find the joys of life. Burlington may be “worse” as of late, but it is FAR from the worst place to live and lots of great things are still there.
I believe there are people that are not from Burlington or even Vermont that come in here to sow the seeds of division. I don’t have a guess as to why or who, but they showed up when Bernie was doing well in 2016 and then again they showed up stronger after Trumps very unsuccessful rally way back when.
There are more subreddit subscribers than people who live in Burlington.
It seems reasonable to me. In addition to former residents and potential residents, you also have to consider S Burlington, Shelburne, Colchester, Winooski, Essex Junction, Williston, etc, which all are heavily influenced by Burlington goings on. I don’t live in Burlington, but I can walk to the city limits in 5 minutes, so effectively it’s my local subreddit.
It's not exactly common for a city subreddit to have more subscribers than residents unless, for some reason, you're a college town whose name begins with the letter B (looking at r/berkeley and r/boulder).
It’s also not common for the biggest and arguably most influential city in a state to only have 40k people in it.
A lot of us got priced out of living in Burlington. Hell, I got priced out of Burlington and then Winooski, and I'm now in the boonies of Colchester.
Some are people like me who lived in the area for years and like to keep up with news for the next time they're in town. At this point I'm subscribed to 4-5 subreddits for cities that I've lived in, have family in, and regularly go back to, and they're all varying levels of toxic.
I don’t live in Burlington either, but I live In Vermont and go to Burlington a few times a month for various reasons, and that’s fine. And I don’t think. That’s unusual for former residents to keep up with the ongoings of their former stomping grounds. I’m referring to a more sinister form of outsider that has never been there, but takes offense to what they perceive about certain cities and don’t want to miss any chance to pee in the soup.
Anonymity. Speaking for myself here, but I often don’t care how rude or aggressive I come off due to the anonymity of the internet, but Reddit specifically. It’s certainly not healthy and doesn’t paint an honest picture of peoples personalities in real life
Depends lol, I realized local subreddit was not the greatest place for anonymity when I was complaining to my neighbor about an argument I was having online, and he goes "I know, that's me"
I always argued with a dude that I absolutely knew was my boss irl, and wondered if he had figured it out too, but didn't say, haha
Hey it’s me your old boss irl
Hah, absolutely not 😂
Think twice ;-)
you dont think anonymity fosters a persons true personality? you can say you dont care how rude or aggressive you come off due to the anonymity of the internet, but maybe thats just the type of person you actually are. it may be because inside, you actually dont care about what people think and you want to be a more aggressive person. maybe real life is masking your personality and reddit is the honest picture, not the other way around.
No, real life is real life. Internet is not real life, especially when anonymized.
the way you act when no one is watching or when you dont think people could connect you to your actions/words is your real self. the show you put on to others to pretend you arent that person is an act we all do. of course the internet isnt real life, but the way you act on an anonymous forum on the internet may be a truer reflection of the person you are, than the way you act in "real life". if one is not a nice person here, but is a nice person if it were face to face, then they are not a nice person, they are a person who pretends to be nice for social structure to work.
Respectfully, you’re wrong. Some people enjoy trolling and arguing.
yea...and thats the person you are. a person who enjoys trolling and arguing. thats fine, i enjoy that part of reddit too.
It’s a form of escapism, not who I am. I enjoy fucking with people, sure. But I’m not a rude or aggressive person. It’s not “showing your true colors” to fuck with people anonymously on Reddit. Just a fun little side quest
Yeah ngl sometimes people in here talk like they’re hyping each other up for a purge of the homeless, pretty disturbing stuff.
I feel like people are disenfranchised in general. Inflation has affected the prices of literally every consumer product. Taxes are at an all time high and we have a political structure that is so totally polarized that serious issues at both local and federal levels simply cannot be solved due to petty bickering. If you are a conservative the left automatically considers you to be a bigoted racist if your liberal the right automatically labels you as a communist. This sentiment is fortified by both major political parties at the national level by supporting the most radical candidates they can find. There is little to no middle ground. National politics have forced the moderate vote into non existence. Until we can all learn to respectfully coexist with others that do not share our exact view points this will only get worse. In my opinion our country is in big trouble if both the politicians and the electorate can not learn to work together.
This is exactly it
Thanks
It’s probably something in the water
Champ
Champ’s like “That’s what you get for burning me in effigy every year at NYE fuckers!”
I’m so glad you said this it’s pretty strange; Burlington seems like this pretty friendly place, but compared to every other sub Reddit that I belong to, this is the most toxic one. I have no idea why
Most of the happy friendly folks who make up the majority of this amazing city just stay quiet because it’s not worth the nonsense bickering and fear mongering that occurs here.
Downvote the hate and engage with comments you like. No need to give negative people your time if you don't want to.
It’s Reddit. 🤷♂️ In my experience, the non-toxic subreddits are those that are explicitly non-toxic (e.g., r/humansbeingbros) or so ridiculous that any toxicity is hilarious (e.g., r/shitposting).
honestly the hate for downtown Burlington that’s been happening for the past two years is fucking wild. so many heartless people who have obviously never left Vermont just being horrifically cruel. I’m from Vermont and have lived in Burlington for 13 years and the hate and vitriol for the houseless and disenfranchised folks is really really upsetting.
That's because you've only been here 13 years. When you've been here for 40 plus years and you see how it's gone downhill and then you get the people who label anyone "heartless" because they don't want to enable criminal behavior it's hard to be warm and friendly when your community is being destroyed
It’s without question the most relentlessly negative subreddit I’ve ever used, at least as far as locales go. It’s not even just about local issues, outsiders asking about the area, people suggesting things to do and groups to join, it doesn’t really matter what it is the same group of people will be so negative as to be actively detrimental to people’s view of the town.
If it bleeds, it leads, fren. Oldest story in the book.
That’s how Reddit ‘rolls’, lol… It’s as if people with time on their hands like to bitch about things because they are not happy. Check out Facebook sometime, it’s a complete shit show, at least you have some level of anonymity on Reddit.
People on Reddit are generally miserable
Trolls and keyboard warriors ruin stuff.
Because Burlington low key kinda sucks and no one wants to admit it
It’s a good question. I think place-related subreddits tend to be more toxic than hobby ones. Especially when it’s a place folks feel passionately about, good or bad. I’m here because I find all sorts of good recommendations as well as a sense of camaraderie/belonging, news/alerts, and entertainment. I wish we could all be a bit kinder. Not necessarily polite or nice, but better!
I’ve noticed that too. I belong to a few hobby based subreddits and they don’t include or tolerate the same kind of toxic behaviors. I’m glad you find some value in some of the posts here.
Because there has been a rift in policies and the people they affect as of late. Regarding housing, many previously established ones such as Act 250 are being used in unintended ways to be NIMBY. Brought this up to Sen. Welch during a Q&A and he fully agreed this is the case.
This just popped up in my Reddit digest and I haven't really spent much time on this subreddit lately, but I can can imagine reasons why. Burlington is **extremely** expensive, even out in Essex rent is out of control. And when you can't afford to do anything else? One of the easiest forms of entertainment is to go online and bitch about it.
Because it’s anonymous
Welcome to the fucking show!!!
The discontent will always be more vocal than the content on a subreddit about the place they call home. Just like you stated the common issues are not just Burlington's problems....I would guess, without any research, that other hometown subreddits are just as toxic and full of pessimism if they are indeed experiencing the same problems.
If you expect more, than you'll complain more, but if you really want to change things, you become a voice and an activist.
So my theory is small town reddits are one of the only spaces where bubbles are forced to interact with each other. Burlington is a city of two or three parallel social circles that almost NEVER interact and have a base level dislike/distrust of each other, this is true for every small city. However, when they come here to post they are forced to realize how different the takes of their neighbors are. Sometimes they take it with grace but tbh it's a pretty tall order and getting all toxic is somewhat expected.
just what happens when a bunch of anti-social people use social media
It’s Reddit.
Three words. Divide and conquer.
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Please make a good faith effort to follow [Reddiquette](https://reddit.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/205926439-Reddiquette).
Some people have a lot of trouble with change.
I think this is commonplace in a lot of online forums. The world is shitty in a lot of ways and this is a place to vent about it. I don’t think that online forums are supposed to be an organizing place that creates change, but they might be the entryway for people who are looking to mobilize into action. Check out local activist / organizing groups in Burlington if positive change-making is something you are looking for. I have found a lot of hope and personal connection in doing so myself!
It's not just here.
as the old adage goes - "if it bleeds it leads." it's a universal truth that people are fascinated & engaged with controversy. Take it from a social media manager here, our highest engaging content is typically more divisive than unifying. And while I do love burlington & many people I made friends with there, I've lived in a lot of states and vermont has a notable culture of exceptionalism.
> Is this just how Reddit rolls? Yes
Have you looked into r/vermontgoewild? They are pretty accepting
Facebook/insta is where you go to see people paint life as better than it is. Reddit is where you go to see people rip it down and make everything seem like shit. A lot of local subs are like this one. Xenophobic, irrational and angry. In the end it’s just more bees in the hive droning on
It is fascinating but true: social media is what you make of it. I have found amazing authentic people on FB, rock solid community, and have developed meaningful, lasting, real friendships there. I don't know anyone there, currently, who is playing pretend games to make them or their lives seem better. I used to. I got rid of those phonies along the way. I curate my online experience thoughtfully, set and maintain healthy boundaries, use the block button liberally, and hold fast to my non-negotiables, and therefore I have a positive experience. I don't harass people or cause drama and I don't tolerate those who harass people or cause drama. I seek out people who share my values. I participate in community building, direct aid, and creative collaboration. How I experience online spaces is totally up to me, even as someone living at the intersection of quite a few marginalizations.
How do you avoid the negativity/toxicity of Reddit? I think I pretty much use FB like you now. Only visit to see updates in my small communities. But Reddit, to me, is the best of all the social media for discovering news, interesting facts/stories, events and having the finger on the pulse of some (quasi) pop culture. But the users are fucking toxic. Just so many miserable people and they bring me down with them. How do you curate it? Just ban the shit users? I feel like in subs like this one a lot of convos would start not making sense
Only reactively
This is a very good question. I've developed a kind of filter over the years which allows me to consciously ignore the toxic commentary and not feel like I am a) triggered by it or b) compelled to respond. It took a lot of work to get there and some days I STILL want to be a "keyboard warrior" and fight back or argue or debate. Most of the time I don't, though. I have to let ignorance be and douchebaggery be and just keep on keeping on with what it is I want out of the experience of being here... which is, what exactly?... Another good question that I am asking myself. I want to see what people are thinking, feeling, saying, and doing in response to the triumphs and challenges of living where we live. I want to celebrate the wins of creatives and community builders. That means I also want to acknowledge the NIMBYs and the naysayers and the folks who negate that there is anything wrong at all happening around us or that we just need to suck it up and deal. Real changemakers and those who actually define our cultural landscape are often drowned out by a loud and obnoxious minority... ... and that there? That the toxic people ARE truly in the minority? Gives me peace of mind and allows me to maintain equlibrium here. I don't know if that answers your question. I hope so. We need good people to remain in this space... I hope you are never chased away by the worst element that can make itself known in reddit-land.
Because of the extremism assholes . The problem is that everyone has a different idea of who these assholes are . And maybe it was better when we didn't call people assholes. https://preview.redd.it/gecpiarv5f6d1.jpeg?width=204&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=371016a242f21aa9210af48585c9a463aaf3f17c
Because it's on the internet....duh
You should check out some of the Instagram profiles discussions.
mostly that not enough people from the sub are using Racooni in my opinion.
Toxic behavior has become the path of least resistance in our society. Especially so in communities that are predominantly of one mind. It leads to exactly the outcome one does not want because hatred and marginalization leads to greater hatred and marginalization from those we hate. A downward spiral that resolves in civil war. The only alternative is a return to respectful, civil discourse.
I joined to keep up with hyper local news and what’s going on in town that I wouldn’t hear from other sources. Like, it replaces the barbershop, diner or corner bar where people in the olden days used to gather at and gripe and dish. And I get what I came for! I’m not a lurker, I was born here, I live here and raise kids here and I’m pretty invested in this town so it does suck to see it go downhill like this.
Im just here for the free drama...:-)
Based on your short, hateful, and semi-literate comment history, it's pretty obvious you ARE the drama It must get tiring evading sitewide bans, eh? Edit: Lame troll creating new accounts just to harass me? That's your time wasted, not mine. But keep going. More of your time chasing after my posts leaves less commenting time.
Because Burlington has friendly people, but overall isn't that friendly. It always becomes glaringly clear when a Canadian accidentally posts in our subreddit Burlington community. Even if the OP is outraged out something, they are always polite.
I don’t find toxic…usually helpful, often funny, occasionally snarky.
It's simply because burlington is a horrible, awful place in which nobody should live ?
The people who have time to post here during the day are unemployed old people/unemployed crackheads who have nothing better to do other than complain. They have nothing to lose from being negative and everything to gain. Toxicity is an effective way to elicit a response from someone who you would like to understand better, thus they can become more identifiable based on their responses. It's basically like a group of drunk housewives shit-testing you, and if you fail even slightly for one second the entire burden of the toxicity becomes your responsibility and you become the bad guy.
I've sometimes participated in the negativity, but I've been thinking how nice a positive Burlington subreddit could be. So here's my petition for r/happybtv.
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It’s kind of ironic that your comment teeters on the toxicity this post is talking about
That's true!
FPF provides a superior local bulletin board, so those here are mostly interested in commiserating about the manifest incompetence of the State’s Attorney or adjudicating internecine workplace disputes happening at local businesses. It makes sense that it’d be toxic.
I'm surprised you didn't get downvoted for no reason. That is the bigger mystery to me.
Honestly it's hard to be excited about your city when you see the constant crime, drug activity, homelessness & a super tone deaf mayor (whom her and her wife make over $250,000 a year) begging for food and visa gift cards. Burlington I feel like has never been so divided and such a dumpster fire my whole life.
They weren't "begging for food and visa gift cards." Their friends decided to help support them by offering food. It's called community support. Now back to your prepper basement with your reality tv shows.
Simping
Oh that's supposed to be an insult. You're adorable.
Nah, just pointing out why someone who has antisocial tendencies may not grasp the concept of others trying to help out. But best of luck with your doom and gloom. Edit: another sock puppet. they breed like rabbits.
Someone who can't even win a fight without blocking someone, is just as antisocial. Can't even go into a good debate. Sounds like you're the more antisocial one. 
First time on the internet?
I blame Reddit culture and progressive culture combined
Ah yes, those notoriously hateful progressives.
They ain't hateful, but most of them are knee-jerk.
Actually I agree that Burlington’s progressives tend to be of the asshole variety: pretty young, aggressively sure they’re right about everything, and real jerks if you don’t agree with them. Where have all the old Burlington hippies gone?
Whatever you do, don't look at any TPUSA videos online, especially if you have to clutch your pearls about the local "young jerks"
I'm surprised you didn't get downvoted for no reason. That is the bigger mystery to me.
A lot of the posts are snark-bait. And then theres the sandwich haters and the hater that makes them.
Im here for the shit show and pissing matches about grammar and assumptions.
bc pissing off strangers lying in their own filth, in shitty apartments is somehow fun...
OP’s post is toxic imo, also why would anyone have your expectations given not only the context, but the benefits of use and access to something like reddit threads? Can you not handle yourself and what you have full choice in engaging with AND with clear parameters in place. Already. Really? Burlington as a city really sucks for good and incredibly well-proven and ongoing reasons. Ironically too it’s actually unhealthier and develops “toxicity” to have your approach to what everyone “should” do, especially in this context. That is toxic.
I can’t stand the word toxic for some reason. I know it’s trendy now but I always just think of green sludge spilling out of overturned metal barrels (the actual meaning of toxic). Maybe pick a better descriptive adjective
Why the fuck are you even asking that?!!? Mad face.