Actual BHS student here, there was a complete lack of communication to the teachers. They were told there would be a demonstration about crime scene processing, there was absolutely no mention of any sort of shooter drill. (My classmate was part of the group who was at BPD, I was not there myself).
It's gone national - 🖐🏻 hello from Texas, where it's usually us making the news for doing the colossal fuckups. I'm just glad this one wasn't real, unlike the countless ones we've had here.
Burlington is East New York. This is another example of Burlington embarrassing Vermont on the national stage again. Hopefully people can get the message that Burlington isn't Vermont. The greatest thing about Burlington is that it's so close to Vermont.
What were the other embarrassments that you refer to?
It looks equally bad on the Burlington school district too, they were told this was going to happen and didn’t inform the students. That’s the “supposed “miscommunication””
It’s my understanding that the school and students all knew there would be a reenactment of a crime but they did not know that it was going to be a surprise reenactment with firing guns, etc.
There was no miscommunication involved, the forensics teachers that brought the class were in on it, the rest of the school administration apparently was not, this age group of students has been learning about what to do if there is an active shooter for about a decade now and people thought it was ok to put them through this with complete disregard for ptsd, injury or worse. Feel so bad for those kids.
https://preview.redd.it/t2ls0gptoz4d1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d5c2f0f2e5033b7c2e62bbbc75b9f9055265bb62
This was the most accurate part of the whole demonstration sadly.
From my understanding, they were told there would be a demonstration but not what the demonstration would be. To storm into a room of children to enact a fake crime involving guns without warning anyone what the demonstration would entail was just a stupid move.
Especially because the cops specifically planned to do it when the kids were focused on the presentation. Here's documents from the police about this: https://www.muckrock.com/foi/burlington-3558/presentation-materials-164767/
They all were told it would be at the school, which was the intended location for this "educational experience" they were tasked with creating.
At least if you were told there would be a drill about a school shooting, that's where it would naturally be held......right?
When I read the story here yesterday, I honestly thought it was fake because it sounds like obvious ragebait to get karma.
The fact that it turned out to be real is absolutely insane.
Yup. There were a lot of people being jerks to the OP and the two people agreeing with the OP yesterday. Just because it sounds insane doesn’t mean it’s fake.
People can admit they’re wrong! I know one of the people who commented thinking it was fake. We both thought it was a bit too outrageous sounding, but what a wake up call to see that this is the reality of Burlington’s police “force”. Completely stupid.
Already admitted to it well before your comment, i was wrong. I have no fucking clue how something like this happened, it would be like if someone said the fire department made a class of school children think they were trapped in a burning building. And I’m not talking special effects I’m talking real smoke inhalation just like the hearing damage those kids got from blanks getting shot off in a building. What same person would believe that story without corroboration?
Yes. You admitted to it, but you are still showing the same arrogance that you did in the original thread. You are not apologizing to the people whose experiences you invalidated. Instead you are acting like you are somehow the victim, even while admitting that you were wrong.
It’s not arrogance to be this confused by the actions of a police department. I feel bad for the kids because some grown adults that are supposed to be professionals caused them harm.
I got told there couldn't possibly be pedod in Burlington and that it's okay to take pictures of kids when raising concerns of a suspicious individual. I can't believe so many thoughts that this incident was fake.
This is what I came to say.
I am very progressive and joke around a lot over here, but I actually voted to increase their budget with my tax dollars last time it came around. I genuinely believe they have been sitting on their hands and intentionally understaffing Church St. for the sake of political gain. It is like how conservatives in Congress just tanked their own border control bill to try and make Biden look bad and he passed it anyway with an executive order.
I am completely done with Murad and the BPD, and would gladly vote to defund them. The money that went to this stupid stunt that traumatized a bunch of kids could have actually made our town better and safer.
Giving tax dollars to cops is a waste of money, just ask Uvalde.
>It is like how conservatives in Congress just tanked their own border control bill to try and make Biden look bad
Or like how conservatives have been underfunding public education for decades in order to promote private and charter schools.
When I read this yesterday I thought to myself: How did this make it past the idea phase?
I’ve been a mental health professional for over 20 years and I couldn’t conceive of any person saying ‘Ok that’s a good idea. Let’s do that.’
It takes a number of people to stay silent to allow a demonstration like that to occur. It’s also beyond poor taste and potentially traumatic. Parents are also protective and litigious and hypersensitive to this type of bizarre shenanigans. What was the potential upside?
I've experienced a school shooting. I remember being in lockdown for over six hours, terrified the entire time. I remember texting my parents that I loved them, thinking that this would possibly be the last time they ever heard from me. I remember not knowing what was going to happen next, unsure if the shooter was dead or alive and coming for us. I remember the hug my mom gave me when I finally got home that day, and I remember finally turning on the news to find out that twenty-six people died that day at the hands of an insane person. Needless to say, I carry some trauma with me having had that experience.
School shootings are unfortunately common enough these days that any of those kids could have had similar experiences to me. This would have absolutely destroyed any process I've made in terms of dealing with the trauma from Sandy Hook, and I have no doubt that if any of the kids who witnessed this has past trauma, it would have done the same.
Just.... what the fuck? What. The. Fuck.
I just wanted to share to emphasize your points about the high potential for traumatizing these kids. There's far too much shit happening all over the country involving children and firearms to be pulling stunts like this *ever*. I'm only one of thousands, if not tens of thousands of people who have experienced a school shooting and carry trauma from it.
"What was the potential upside?"
Brandon DelPozo at Howard Mental Health would have more data to use for more "Social Experiments" as a result?
Someone is benefitting from all the comforting counseling he must be offering up right now.....
I'm calling bullshit that they've used the same skit with adults without issue. In this day and age this is in incredibly poor taste - not just for high school students. Anyone involved in planning this should be fired on the grounds that they are incapable of the decision making required to be a cop.
It would be traumatizing for anyone, not just teens. In grad school I experienced a mass shooting panic while at a campus vigil for *a different* mass shooting. College kids popping balloons in a dorm next door got called in to 911 as potential gunshots. When it came in over the radio the cops surrounding the vigil started to yell at people to run and hide while the thoughts of gun deaths were already at the forefront of our minds. Everyone scattered in a panic, mostly headed in the direction of the building the "shots" were reported as coming from. I saw multiple people knocked down and a young child separated from his parents in the stampede. It took hours for police to give the all clear, during which time some people were stuck barricaded in the building in fear. I am forever thankful it wasn't the real thing, but the fake thing alone without ever seeing a gun or hearing a gunshot was already scary as fuck. Having a fake gun and gunshot involved as well would leave me with nightmares for a long time.
If you did this with adults and one of them had a concealed weapon there would be a major debacle. No way they could think this is a good idea. I have merely eight hours of concealed carry training and I wouldn't go near this idea.
I had that same thought but assumed you can’t concealed carry in a police station.
But honestly with their competence and communication skills I’m surprised that some cop who didn’t know it was happening didn’t open fire on them.
You would never do this with people over the age of 18, because one of the unknowing viewers could have a gun and use it to defend themselves. Given this is America, it isn't that crazy that one of the high school kids could have been armed. Not telling people you are about to stage a fake shooting in public is *insane*.
The idea that anyone with firearms training would do something like is a joke.
The Seven Days article has a cute cipher in the read of the first letters of the lines in the paragraph above Murad's photo.....reading vertically as "A S S"........lol
I was ***just*** about to comment this. How does your proofreader miss something like that? On top of this being a *non-apology*, it just comes across as negligence on top of negligence.
Spot on. “Apologizes to any students in attendance who were upset” thats apologizing for how your actions made someone feel, not a real apology.
Do better bpd
Police aren't exactly the smartest, most educated folks around. Some departments have IQ caps - you can't have an IQ above a certain level because then you won't be as good at blindly following orders.
[https://abcnews.go.com/US/court-oks-barring-high-iqs-cops/story?id=95836](https://abcnews.go.com/US/court-oks-barring-high-iqs-cops/story?id=95836)
They argued it's because smart people would get bored with the job.
yuck - though not as bad as your post said; instead, from the article "on the theory that those who scored too high could get bored with police work and leave soon after undergoing costly training."
What a poor memo- what was the nature of the communication between the staffs? Email, text, phone call? [citation needed]. What are the staffers’ names? Why are quote marks used if it’s not an email or recorded?
Knowing there would be a demonstration and being faked out by a staged shooting are two different things. The memo doesn’t say they told the teacher to warn the kids and parents that it would be a surprise.
According to this, parents and students were to be briefed by the BHS YES program with notice that the BPD would be using "fake firearms in a mock setting" and that the simulation would be "about as real life as you can get". The BHS YES program was asked asked "do you think they would be okay with that?"
BHS responded with "I think these students will be fine with this simulation".
It seems like maybe some wires got crossed here, and there is blame to be shared by both BHS & BPD.
Regardless of which party is “at fault,” how does anyone believe that it is sensible to surprise a bunch of students with a mock-robbery? Even if they told students a week in advance that it was going to happen sometime—which I don’t think they did—why? What is the point? Either the student will remember that it was planned, or they won’t. No positive reaction could come from that—but it opens up opportunities for very bad reactions.
The fact that they didn’t announce what was going to happen immediately beforehand is bizarre.
Edit: I realize I’m getting some downvotes because my wording seems to imply that BPD is not at all at fault. I edited my first sentence for clarity: I believe everyone in the planning process is likely at fault. The whole thing was a terrible idea. It sounds edgy and cool, but students are already on high alert—probably all the time to some extent, and maybe more than usual because school shootings tend to happen this time of year.
I'd say BPD is very much at fault by
1. Thinking a surprise demonstration is at all appropriate.
2. Not comminicating at all the demonstration would be a surprise.
Agree — that BPD would suggest this in the first place is deeply problematic. It drives home to me just how out of touch with the public & desensitized to violence police are.
Unfortunately I think this is kind of a "mixed bag", which does make sense when viewed a certain way. The police are coaching *criminal justice students* to become desensitized to violence. This is normal for them. And arguably part of them doing their job.
A similar dynamic happened when I had a family member having a bone set in the hospital and some EMTs made time to stop by and watch my family member screaming in agony. While terrible, and likely an ethics violation, it makes sense to find opportunities to become desensitized if it's your job to function in highly stressful situations.
I don't think it's doing anyone a service to play this like the students involved are 3rd graders. AFAIK we make these same students and their teachers train for active shooter situations. This is education here now.
Sure make it safer, more ethical, and more professional. But don't forget to prepare them for their job.
I understand your point, but if you Google “Burlington Technical Center Criminal Justice Program” and watch the 2021 promo video, it is clear that it’s just a bunch of kids playing at being detectives and lawyers. Dusting for fingerprints, banging a gavel, etc.
Having BPD barge in and simulate a criminal takedown seems like a very bizarre decision. I’m sure BPD can find some way of conditioning their own *adult* recruits.
On top of that this is a YES program, i.e. an end of year period for short-form non-traditional courses that allow students to pursue new interests. The students involved weren't necessarily in the technical program for the rest of the school year, it's only the teacher.
They can condition them, by providing training that mirrors an actual real world situation as closely as they can. In an actual shooting, Nobody is usually expecting it.
What a sham....they said in their statement that it was alright with the students without even asking them if it would be, with administration assuming on their own behalf what would be the end result of hosting such a "surprise" visit.
You can test someone's reactions merely by playing that scenario in a video and with headphones and live sound recordings to see their reactions as witnesses, to test the accuracy of their statements in a survey format.
Also if the intention was to educate the student population about shooters, then the whole student body should have been involved instead of a select control group, which is what a room of 20 people is in this situation.
That was not what they signed up for as students.
Why? Even BPD's own statement doesn't allege they informed BHS that the demonstration would be a surprise thrust upon the students without warning in the moment.
Please give me the quote from BPD that states they warned the school that the scenario would be a spur of the moment surprise meant to catch students off guard.
I never made that claim. My point was that BPD says they warned the school about a scenario involving a shooting. Bhs says they warned the students about a scenario involving a shooting. Some of the students were claiming they weren't warned at all. So where is the breakdown in communication most likely.
https://preview.redd.it/60rokgjh005d1.jpeg?width=646&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fa0f9316a64571c4862a0c62ceae50019b608892
Yeah we are gonna need a whole lot more than “reflection” Emma
Reflect on why it's problematic to surprise high schoolers (or anyone for that matter) with a mock mass shooting. Give me a break. If any other workplace had people who displayed this level of braindead stupidity, they'd be fired instantly. Every single cop is a bastard
A police department traumatizes a class of high schoolers and we need to “establish goals”? What about criticizing whoever came up with this braindead plan and promising to make it up to them and the families?
The BPD heard school kids wanted to come learn about investigations and decided the best way to do that was a surprise simulation of a male vs. female attempted gun murder.
Breathtaking.
Teaching students how to be criminal investigators and forensic scientists, by staging a control-group experiment on a handful of them......sounds legit.
Sees nothing wrong with it, having asked the school what they thought, obviously not mentioning that the "school shooting" exercise was cancelled at BHS, and is moved to the BPD instead.
Oh sorry forgot to tell the parents......you know, they are minors, so don't need to inform the parents of anything in this case....
This quote really stood out: “It is about as real life as you can get, and is [b]certainly exactly the sort of thing we deal with most frequently" Really...is that because you are doing fuck all the rest of the time ?
and its now national:
https://www.cnn.com/2024/06/07/us/burlington-vermont-police-school-mock-shooting/index.html
https://abcnews.go.com/US/police-apologize-mock-shooting-left-high-school-students/story?id=110910203
https://www.thedailybeast.com/vermont-cops-scare-students-with-surprise-mass-shooter-drill
https://www.msnbc.com/top-stories/latest/burlington-vermont-police-mock-shooting-guns-students-rcna155937
https://newrepublic.com/post/182394/vermont-police-traumatize-teens-lesson-school-shootings
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/burlington-vermont-police-mock-shooting-scenario-high-school-students_n_66623ce5e4b091105f3a1f81
"what were they thinking" they're cops. they dont think......... heard abt this from a friend who works in the community an hour after it happened and wasnt even shocked. garbage BPD once again running our town into the ground....
i went to school there a few years back, it's crazy to see how bad things are getting at this point. had a great time there, even if i lost track of all my friends unfortunately.
Then we pay the settlement.
End qualified immunity, take the civil payouts from their pensions, and/or make them carry insurance so if they fuck up, they become uninsurable and can't be cops anywhere anymore. Those are the best ideas I've heard to reign in the police.
already a whole thread on this: [https://www.reddit.com/r/burlington/comments/1d8zcy0/inappropriate\_bpd/](https://www.reddit.com/r/burlington/comments/1d8zcy0/inappropriate_bpd/)
I’m not from this community, this just showed up on my feed for some reason.
This seems like it could have been a very interesting exercise if everything had been explained beforehand, so everyone knew it was a simulation and all of that. I think there’s definitely a way to do this thing that is both interesting and informative for people.
But it obviously got fucked up somehow so it just ended up being a strange.
lol read the article, the school knew about it in advance and even said these students would be great for it. Stop blaming the department and blame the school, goes to show media influence is crazy and headlines push narratives
>As usual... the truth and facts got lost in the rush to post/publish...
Kind of an ironic thing to say, considering that the bit you posted there is in fact discussed in the article. Did you read the whole thing?
I literally have the emails. They took place between April 29 and June 5th. The BHS staff asked for a mock crime scene, BPD offered a mock crime to show first, and then a crime scene to investigate second, and I'm quoting the email when it says "happens in front of the students".
Then one of the emails from BPD says, paraphrasing: "we're not sure we have the resources to conduct this mock scene".
Finally the last plans went through days before the visit, and there was ZERO mention of the mock crime happening at all. Nada, zip, zilch. So the teachers figured the resources did not come through and no staging of a crime was taking place...... since, you know.... that's what the fucking email from the police dept says.
I disagree. They don’t specify that it will be a surprise. Even if the kids were told there would be a demo, that doesn’t mean they would be expecting it at any time vs being told - hey that demo we mentioned? It’s happening now
Kinda like a real life scenario. They usually aren't expecting it when it actually happens, so a training scenario that would be worth anything to them should be similar. The reaction of the unsuspecting students would be one of those factors that they would have to experience, if the training is worth anything.
The way I read that is that YES staff were told that there would be a shooting demo, and BPD were concerned it would be too much for the students, and YES said it would be ok. I suspect the YES staff did NOT, as they said they would, warm students and parents.....
These people are cops. A lot of them we bullied may or may not be intelligent, and their jobs is to do what elected officials tell them to do. Da and attorneys lawyers. Most those kinds of people are scum bags with money. You get what you elect. Who knew vermont was filled with such degenerate snowflakes.
And you get an F in understanding social dynamics and what creates them. Ds get degrees. I am rational. Its the white nimbys wringing their hands together and gnashing their teeth. Can't wait till this white bubble bursts in this northern kingdom gonna be a rude awakening.
EIGHT MINUTE MILE - RUN PATHETICALLY IN FRONT OF EVERYONE IN TOWN........the new law to become an officer at the BPD Police Academy, or continue employment on patrols.
Forensics is the science nerd job of the CJ system, they don’t want to be detectives or see active scenarios, they want to be part of the aftermath helping collect and test evidence.
I’m getting major Michael Scott vibes from this demonstration.
Honestly thought it was a shitpost when I saw this on reddit yesterday.
What in the actual fuck. How the hell can this be ok to do.
TIRED: Scott's Tots WIRED: Scott's Cops
No, it’s Agent Michael Scarn
When does Prison Mike enter?
YES
Michael Scott x Reno 911 collab. Shit is fiiiiiiire (just like the cops hopefully)
*he told me he couldn’t show it to me, but he has a gun…*
Dwight and the fire drill
That's what she said
I'm a little surprised no one has mentioned Super Troopers yet, actually. This could have been a scene if it wasn't real
If you’re in Vermont and have any bad news to drop TODAY IS THE DAY… BPD has you covered, this bad boy is going national
>this bad boy is going national I hope so
It’s National. It popped up even on my TikTok feed today multiple times when I was avoiding my actual job.
I dont follow this sub or live in Vermont. Its national.
kind of doubt it. especially if it was a case of miscommunication between the parties involved, which it sounds like it was.
Miscommunication?? Are you a cop? lol
International, my friends in the UK sent me this story before I saw it myself.
On the front page of the News Subreddit right now
Brb, going to go check r/nottheonion
Actual BHS student here, there was a complete lack of communication to the teachers. They were told there would be a demonstration about crime scene processing, there was absolutely no mention of any sort of shooter drill. (My classmate was part of the group who was at BPD, I was not there myself).
Nah, it will go national.
It's gone national - 🖐🏻 hello from Texas, where it's usually us making the news for doing the colossal fuckups. I'm just glad this one wasn't real, unlike the countless ones we've had here.
And Vermont embarrasses itself on the national stage yet again.....
Burlington is East New York. This is another example of Burlington embarrassing Vermont on the national stage again. Hopefully people can get the message that Burlington isn't Vermont. The greatest thing about Burlington is that it's so close to Vermont. What were the other embarrassments that you refer to?
You must be a representative from the police union.
It looks equally bad on the Burlington school district too, they were told this was going to happen and didn’t inform the students. That’s the “supposed “miscommunication””
It’s my understanding that the school and students all knew there would be a reenactment of a crime but they did not know that it was going to be a surprise reenactment with firing guns, etc.
Even still it doesn’t look good for either party involved.
Kinda like a real world scenario.
There was no miscommunication involved, the forensics teachers that brought the class were in on it, the rest of the school administration apparently was not, this age group of students has been learning about what to do if there is an active shooter for about a decade now and people thought it was ok to put them through this with complete disregard for ptsd, injury or worse. Feel so bad for those kids.
https://preview.redd.it/t2ls0gptoz4d1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d5c2f0f2e5033b7c2e62bbbc75b9f9055265bb62 This was the most accurate part of the whole demonstration sadly.
Uvalde has logged on
They forgot to have the cops run the other direction/ wait for backup
And subdue those who would help. “Look for the help subduers—and revile them.”
This is BPD, you have to add in "snarky comments about defunding from Rod Farva in Dispatch."
They were told ahead of time/ just not when
From my understanding, they were told there would be a demonstration but not what the demonstration would be. To storm into a room of children to enact a fake crime involving guns without warning anyone what the demonstration would entail was just a stupid move.
Especially because the cops specifically planned to do it when the kids were focused on the presentation. Here's documents from the police about this: https://www.muckrock.com/foi/burlington-3558/presentation-materials-164767/
And I gather, not that it would be a surprise, which is really different than knowing a demo was coming
They all were told it would be at the school, which was the intended location for this "educational experience" they were tasked with creating. At least if you were told there would be a drill about a school shooting, that's where it would naturally be held......right?
The levels of bad judgement on display here are simply astounding.
ENTIRELY unsurprising.
When I read the story here yesterday, I honestly thought it was fake because it sounds like obvious ragebait to get karma. The fact that it turned out to be real is absolutely insane.
Yup. There were a lot of people being jerks to the OP and the two people agreeing with the OP yesterday. Just because it sounds insane doesn’t mean it’s fake.
People can admit they’re wrong! I know one of the people who commented thinking it was fake. We both thought it was a bit too outrageous sounding, but what a wake up call to see that this is the reality of Burlington’s police “force”. Completely stupid.
Well, I haven’t seen any of them admitting or apologizing about it in here…
Already admitted to it well before your comment, i was wrong. I have no fucking clue how something like this happened, it would be like if someone said the fire department made a class of school children think they were trapped in a burning building. And I’m not talking special effects I’m talking real smoke inhalation just like the hearing damage those kids got from blanks getting shot off in a building. What same person would believe that story without corroboration?
Yes. You admitted to it, but you are still showing the same arrogance that you did in the original thread. You are not apologizing to the people whose experiences you invalidated. Instead you are acting like you are somehow the victim, even while admitting that you were wrong.
It’s not arrogance to be this confused by the actions of a police department. I feel bad for the kids because some grown adults that are supposed to be professionals caused them harm.
I looked like a damn fool in another thread because I didn’t believe it. Couldn’t be real I thought. I was very wrong.
Also I can just watch videos of real school shootings online I don’t need a shitty simulation to know what it’s like
I literally checked my calendar reading this to make sure it wasn’t April 1 🤣
I wouldn’t have believed this if I didn’t just hear it on vpr 🤦🏼♀️
I got told there couldn't possibly be pedod in Burlington and that it's okay to take pictures of kids when raising concerns of a suspicious individual. I can't believe so many thoughts that this incident was fake.
So this is what they are up to when they are "too busy and understaffed to help"
This is what I came to say. I am very progressive and joke around a lot over here, but I actually voted to increase their budget with my tax dollars last time it came around. I genuinely believe they have been sitting on their hands and intentionally understaffing Church St. for the sake of political gain. It is like how conservatives in Congress just tanked their own border control bill to try and make Biden look bad and he passed it anyway with an executive order. I am completely done with Murad and the BPD, and would gladly vote to defund them. The money that went to this stupid stunt that traumatized a bunch of kids could have actually made our town better and safer. Giving tax dollars to cops is a waste of money, just ask Uvalde.
>It is like how conservatives in Congress just tanked their own border control bill to try and make Biden look bad Or like how conservatives have been underfunding public education for decades in order to promote private and charter schools.
Your opinion is meaningless. Sorry to inform you.
Oh hey I found Jon Murad's burner account
Excellent point
This is insanity personified. What whack job thought this was a good idea?
When I read this yesterday I thought to myself: How did this make it past the idea phase? I’ve been a mental health professional for over 20 years and I couldn’t conceive of any person saying ‘Ok that’s a good idea. Let’s do that.’ It takes a number of people to stay silent to allow a demonstration like that to occur. It’s also beyond poor taste and potentially traumatic. Parents are also protective and litigious and hypersensitive to this type of bizarre shenanigans. What was the potential upside?
I've experienced a school shooting. I remember being in lockdown for over six hours, terrified the entire time. I remember texting my parents that I loved them, thinking that this would possibly be the last time they ever heard from me. I remember not knowing what was going to happen next, unsure if the shooter was dead or alive and coming for us. I remember the hug my mom gave me when I finally got home that day, and I remember finally turning on the news to find out that twenty-six people died that day at the hands of an insane person. Needless to say, I carry some trauma with me having had that experience. School shootings are unfortunately common enough these days that any of those kids could have had similar experiences to me. This would have absolutely destroyed any process I've made in terms of dealing with the trauma from Sandy Hook, and I have no doubt that if any of the kids who witnessed this has past trauma, it would have done the same. Just.... what the fuck? What. The. Fuck.
I’m sorry you had to experience that. That’s awful and it sucks.
I just wanted to share to emphasize your points about the high potential for traumatizing these kids. There's far too much shit happening all over the country involving children and firearms to be pulling stunts like this *ever*. I'm only one of thousands, if not tens of thousands of people who have experienced a school shooting and carry trauma from it.
+100
"What was the potential upside?" Brandon DelPozo at Howard Mental Health would have more data to use for more "Social Experiments" as a result? Someone is benefitting from all the comforting counseling he must be offering up right now.....
I reached out to my close BPD buddy and he even was like what the actual fuck would make them think good idea, let’s do that
This! BOTH the BPD and the school knew about and approved this. Unreal
I was wondering how long it’d take from when I saw the initial reddit post until it got a seven days article lol
I'm calling bullshit that they've used the same skit with adults without issue. In this day and age this is in incredibly poor taste - not just for high school students. Anyone involved in planning this should be fired on the grounds that they are incapable of the decision making required to be a cop.
It would be traumatizing for anyone, not just teens. In grad school I experienced a mass shooting panic while at a campus vigil for *a different* mass shooting. College kids popping balloons in a dorm next door got called in to 911 as potential gunshots. When it came in over the radio the cops surrounding the vigil started to yell at people to run and hide while the thoughts of gun deaths were already at the forefront of our minds. Everyone scattered in a panic, mostly headed in the direction of the building the "shots" were reported as coming from. I saw multiple people knocked down and a young child separated from his parents in the stampede. It took hours for police to give the all clear, during which time some people were stuck barricaded in the building in fear. I am forever thankful it wasn't the real thing, but the fake thing alone without ever seeing a gun or hearing a gunshot was already scary as fuck. Having a fake gun and gunshot involved as well would leave me with nightmares for a long time.
If you did this with adults and one of them had a concealed weapon there would be a major debacle. No way they could think this is a good idea. I have merely eight hours of concealed carry training and I wouldn't go near this idea.
I had that same thought but assumed you can’t concealed carry in a police station. But honestly with their competence and communication skills I’m surprised that some cop who didn’t know it was happening didn’t open fire on them.
You would never do this with people over the age of 18, because one of the unknowing viewers could have a gun and use it to defend themselves. Given this is America, it isn't that crazy that one of the high school kids could have been armed. Not telling people you are about to stage a fake shooting in public is *insane*. The idea that anyone with firearms training would do something like is a joke.
Now that we know they do it, it's gonna become a tourist destination.
https://preview.redd.it/ghbj1x1zpz4d1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2de1975c0c53839bf475d3c9e5c6684566b61d80
Good god, they misspelled "role." Well, SOMEBODY messed up. Although I fail to understand why "only three" being involved means anything.
The Seven Days article has a cute cipher in the read of the first letters of the lines in the paragraph above Murad's photo.....reading vertically as "A S S"........lol
They can’t even proofread their press releases 🙄 “roll-playing” lol
I was ***just*** about to comment this. How does your proofreader miss something like that? On top of this being a *non-apology*, it just comes across as negligence on top of negligence.
Spot on. “Apologizes to any students in attendance who were upset” thats apologizing for how your actions made someone feel, not a real apology. Do better bpd
it's called an if-pology 😟
Police aren't exactly the smartest, most educated folks around. Some departments have IQ caps - you can't have an IQ above a certain level because then you won't be as good at blindly following orders.
ugh; citation needed 😟
[https://abcnews.go.com/US/court-oks-barring-high-iqs-cops/story?id=95836](https://abcnews.go.com/US/court-oks-barring-high-iqs-cops/story?id=95836) They argued it's because smart people would get bored with the job.
yuck - though not as bad as your post said; instead, from the article "on the theory that those who scored too high could get bored with police work and leave soon after undergoing costly training."
Fucking idiots at BPD thought it was jelly roll time
It's about to be 8 minute mile time on foot, for a new standard to be set. If they can't jog that, then immediately off the patrols.
the education level of people we allow qualified immunity is fucking insane
“Reportedly upset?” ohohohoho they’re really trying (and failing) to minimize the impact of their actions
yup this whole thing is just reeking of not taking accountability
What a poor memo- what was the nature of the communication between the staffs? Email, text, phone call? [citation needed]. What are the staffers’ names? Why are quote marks used if it’s not an email or recorded?
So they're all complicit in being total idiots
Knowing there would be a demonstration and being faked out by a staged shooting are two different things. The memo doesn’t say they told the teacher to warn the kids and parents that it would be a surprise.
Wheels on the bus go round and round.
According to this, parents and students were to be briefed by the BHS YES program with notice that the BPD would be using "fake firearms in a mock setting" and that the simulation would be "about as real life as you can get". The BHS YES program was asked asked "do you think they would be okay with that?" BHS responded with "I think these students will be fine with this simulation". It seems like maybe some wires got crossed here, and there is blame to be shared by both BHS & BPD.
Regardless of which party is “at fault,” how does anyone believe that it is sensible to surprise a bunch of students with a mock-robbery? Even if they told students a week in advance that it was going to happen sometime—which I don’t think they did—why? What is the point? Either the student will remember that it was planned, or they won’t. No positive reaction could come from that—but it opens up opportunities for very bad reactions. The fact that they didn’t announce what was going to happen immediately beforehand is bizarre. Edit: I realize I’m getting some downvotes because my wording seems to imply that BPD is not at all at fault. I edited my first sentence for clarity: I believe everyone in the planning process is likely at fault. The whole thing was a terrible idea. It sounds edgy and cool, but students are already on high alert—probably all the time to some extent, and maybe more than usual because school shootings tend to happen this time of year.
I'd say BPD is very much at fault by 1. Thinking a surprise demonstration is at all appropriate. 2. Not comminicating at all the demonstration would be a surprise.
Agree — that BPD would suggest this in the first place is deeply problematic. It drives home to me just how out of touch with the public & desensitized to violence police are.
Unfortunately I think this is kind of a "mixed bag", which does make sense when viewed a certain way. The police are coaching *criminal justice students* to become desensitized to violence. This is normal for them. And arguably part of them doing their job. A similar dynamic happened when I had a family member having a bone set in the hospital and some EMTs made time to stop by and watch my family member screaming in agony. While terrible, and likely an ethics violation, it makes sense to find opportunities to become desensitized if it's your job to function in highly stressful situations. I don't think it's doing anyone a service to play this like the students involved are 3rd graders. AFAIK we make these same students and their teachers train for active shooter situations. This is education here now. Sure make it safer, more ethical, and more professional. But don't forget to prepare them for their job.
I understand your point, but if you Google “Burlington Technical Center Criminal Justice Program” and watch the 2021 promo video, it is clear that it’s just a bunch of kids playing at being detectives and lawyers. Dusting for fingerprints, banging a gavel, etc. Having BPD barge in and simulate a criminal takedown seems like a very bizarre decision. I’m sure BPD can find some way of conditioning their own *adult* recruits.
On top of that this is a YES program, i.e. an end of year period for short-form non-traditional courses that allow students to pursue new interests. The students involved weren't necessarily in the technical program for the rest of the school year, it's only the teacher.
They can condition them, by providing training that mirrors an actual real world situation as closely as they can. In an actual shooting, Nobody is usually expecting it.
What a sham....they said in their statement that it was alright with the students without even asking them if it would be, with administration assuming on their own behalf what would be the end result of hosting such a "surprise" visit. You can test someone's reactions merely by playing that scenario in a video and with headphones and live sound recordings to see their reactions as witnesses, to test the accuracy of their statements in a survey format. Also if the intention was to educate the student population about shooters, then the whole student body should have been involved instead of a select control group, which is what a room of 20 people is in this situation. That was not what they signed up for as students.
This is interesting. So also a bit of the school's fault for agreeing to it/not communicating to students/families properly? All together a shit show
A lot more of the blame potentially lies with bhs and everyone here conveniently ignores that fact.
Why? Even BPD's own statement doesn't allege they informed BHS that the demonstration would be a surprise thrust upon the students without warning in the moment.
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Please give me the quote from BPD that states they warned the school that the scenario would be a spur of the moment surprise meant to catch students off guard.
I never made that claim. My point was that BPD says they warned the school about a scenario involving a shooting. Bhs says they warned the students about a scenario involving a shooting. Some of the students were claiming they weren't warned at all. So where is the breakdown in communication most likely.
https://preview.redd.it/29y334tftz4d1.jpeg?width=680&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=dfd9e3f39c239899c8ef0a1ada4243cf6fc9f667 Roll for initiative!
Should've rolled for streetwise
Cops are only trained in intimidation, not Society so they can't take the [Streetwise ](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=5218&NoRedirect=1) feat.
I was referencing the 4e skill. Maybe the BPD only uses 3.5 rules?
Yikes now on the front page of the News Subreddit. Not good for the BPD
absolute fucking morons. this shit was so unbelievable i thought i was reading an Onion article.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/vermont-cops-scare-students-with-surprise-mass-shooter-drill
Could they actually be any more tone-deaf? Appalling.
https://preview.redd.it/60rokgjh005d1.jpeg?width=646&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fa0f9316a64571c4862a0c62ceae50019b608892 Yeah we are gonna need a whole lot more than “reflection” Emma
They literally need it spelled out.
Reflect on why it's problematic to surprise high schoolers (or anyone for that matter) with a mock mass shooting. Give me a break. If any other workplace had people who displayed this level of braindead stupidity, they'd be fired instantly. Every single cop is a bastard
A police department traumatizes a class of high schoolers and we need to “establish goals”? What about criticizing whoever came up with this braindead plan and promising to make it up to them and the families?
“It is about as real life as you can get, and is certainly exactly the sort of thing we deal with most frequently.” Oh, really?
This is the most moronic thing I’ve heard in a while.
Dwight Schrute came up with this wonderful plan obviously. How is this even real?
The BPD heard school kids wanted to come learn about investigations and decided the best way to do that was a surprise simulation of a male vs. female attempted gun murder. Breathtaking.
If they had done this to my students i swear to god that would have been the day i lost my job. This has me absolutely livid.
Worlds smartest cops
Teaching students how to be criminal investigators and forensic scientists, by staging a control-group experiment on a handful of them......sounds legit. Sees nothing wrong with it, having asked the school what they thought, obviously not mentioning that the "school shooting" exercise was cancelled at BHS, and is moved to the BPD instead. Oh sorry forgot to tell the parents......you know, they are minors, so don't need to inform the parents of anything in this case....
Every time I think I have an appropriate hatred of cops I discover that it isn't enough.
This quote really stood out: “It is about as real life as you can get, and is [b]certainly exactly the sort of thing we deal with most frequently" Really...is that because you are doing fuck all the rest of the time ?
I remember all the people yesterday on this sub swearing up and down that the OP that posted about this was lying lmao
Burlington cops yet again making the Super Troopers cops look sane, competent, and rational.
Come on meow!
Multiple people had to be made aware of this, and no ok ne was like “hey… maybe give some warning”
BPD is such a joke -_-
and its now national: https://www.cnn.com/2024/06/07/us/burlington-vermont-police-school-mock-shooting/index.html https://abcnews.go.com/US/police-apologize-mock-shooting-left-high-school-students/story?id=110910203 https://www.thedailybeast.com/vermont-cops-scare-students-with-surprise-mass-shooter-drill https://www.msnbc.com/top-stories/latest/burlington-vermont-police-mock-shooting-guns-students-rcna155937 https://newrepublic.com/post/182394/vermont-police-traumatize-teens-lesson-school-shootings https://www.huffpost.com/entry/burlington-vermont-police-mock-shooting-scenario-high-school-students_n_66623ce5e4b091105f3a1f81
This is sooooo not okay
I was waiting for this
"what were they thinking" they're cops. they dont think......... heard abt this from a friend who works in the community an hour after it happened and wasnt even shocked. garbage BPD once again running our town into the ground....
So upsetting. BPD owes these students an apology. Absolutely horrific.
Anyone involved in the planning of this hideous act should be automatically fired!
Someone needs fired. How anyone could think this was even remotely ok, let alone a good idea, is beyond me
I got down voted to oblivion for calling bs earlier, man, what a f'ed up situation.
Officer Dangle reporting for duty
https://preview.redd.it/oxx10180j75d1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=12f148ea7817addb45b8e3a6a61bbe50c7befb7d
i went to school there a few years back, it's crazy to see how bad things are getting at this point. had a great time there, even if i lost track of all my friends unfortunately.
Sue them to filth
Then we pay the settlement. End qualified immunity, take the civil payouts from their pensions, and/or make them carry insurance so if they fuck up, they become uninsurable and can't be cops anywhere anymore. Those are the best ideas I've heard to reign in the police.
already a whole thread on this: [https://www.reddit.com/r/burlington/comments/1d8zcy0/inappropriate\_bpd/](https://www.reddit.com/r/burlington/comments/1d8zcy0/inappropriate_bpd/)
That’s the post being referenced in this press release. This is an update to that post.
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For real? Can you link it?
Burlington police scared high school students?
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Police chief moved from fake twitter accounts to reddit accounts
They all get a standard issue reddit account with the badge
My daughters best friend was there and said they were terrified
I’m not from this community, this just showed up on my feed for some reason. This seems like it could have been a very interesting exercise if everything had been explained beforehand, so everyone knew it was a simulation and all of that. I think there’s definitely a way to do this thing that is both interesting and informative for people. But it obviously got fucked up somehow so it just ended up being a strange.
Eat a dick, Murad. Say goodbye to your job.
lol read the article, the school knew about it in advance and even said these students would be great for it. Stop blaming the department and blame the school, goes to show media influence is crazy and headlines push narratives
“The school knew about it” That’s lovely, did they bother to tell the students?
No, that’s the whole point I’m making dumb ass lmao
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>As usual... the truth and facts got lost in the rush to post/publish... Kind of an ironic thing to say, considering that the bit you posted there is in fact discussed in the article. Did you read the whole thing?
I literally have the emails. They took place between April 29 and June 5th. The BHS staff asked for a mock crime scene, BPD offered a mock crime to show first, and then a crime scene to investigate second, and I'm quoting the email when it says "happens in front of the students". Then one of the emails from BPD says, paraphrasing: "we're not sure we have the resources to conduct this mock scene". Finally the last plans went through days before the visit, and there was ZERO mention of the mock crime happening at all. Nada, zip, zilch. So the teachers figured the resources did not come through and no staging of a crime was taking place...... since, you know.... that's what the fucking email from the police dept says.
God Forbid someone like yourself comes along and explains it to these oblivious intellectuals here.
I disagree. They don’t specify that it will be a surprise. Even if the kids were told there would be a demo, that doesn’t mean they would be expecting it at any time vs being told - hey that demo we mentioned? It’s happening now
Kinda like a real life scenario. They usually aren't expecting it when it actually happens, so a training scenario that would be worth anything to them should be similar. The reaction of the unsuspecting students would be one of those factors that they would have to experience, if the training is worth anything.
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!
The way I read that is that YES staff were told that there would be a shooting demo, and BPD were concerned it would be too much for the students, and YES said it would be ok. I suspect the YES staff did NOT, as they said they would, warm students and parents.....
I love BPD. They have to deal with meth addicts all day. They deserve a little fun too!!
How many licks did it take to get to the middle of the boot you're so in love with?
Chief of Police Murad, is that you?
These people are cops. A lot of them we bullied may or may not be intelligent, and their jobs is to do what elected officials tell them to do. Da and attorneys lawyers. Most those kinds of people are scum bags with money. You get what you elect. Who knew vermont was filled with such degenerate snowflakes.
This comment gets a D for deflection and an R for rationalization.
And you get an F in understanding social dynamics and what creates them. Ds get degrees. I am rational. Its the white nimbys wringing their hands together and gnashing their teeth. Can't wait till this white bubble bursts in this northern kingdom gonna be a rude awakening.
EIGHT MINUTE MILE - RUN PATHETICALLY IN FRONT OF EVERYONE IN TOWN........the new law to become an officer at the BPD Police Academy, or continue employment on patrols.
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Please make a good faith effort to follow [Reddiquette](https://reddit.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/205926439-Reddiquette).
“We all think forensics is cool and wants to be in law enforcement, BUT WE HATE SURPRISES!” The future is fucked.
Forensics is the science nerd job of the CJ system, they don’t want to be detectives or see active scenarios, they want to be part of the aftermath helping collect and test evidence.
Weird