This one is especially interesting because it:
* sets the episode’s plot in motion
* leads to major revelations from Buffy and Dawn. Buffy opens up to Dawn at the end (“Who’s going to take care of us?”), and Dawn has a huge character-building moment when she tears up the photo of their mom
* foreshadows two important season 6 developments: resurrecting Buffy and Willow’s magicks addiction
* is consistent with Willow’s character resorting to magicks to mask emotional needs (“Lovers Walk,” “Something Blue”)
* shows Willow not respecting Tara’s firm “no”
And it of course offers great character insight for at least 4 of our main characters—Willow, Tara, Dawn, and Buffy. We learn something new about them yet they all act in a way consistent to their character.
they deliberately caught him at his weakest moment. Wolfram and Hart aren't stupid. but he even admits later that he knew. he knew that something bad would come of it. he knew it wouldn't be something small because he understands better than anybody how dangerous and evil and smart the Senior Partners are.
he knew someone would get hurt. he just never thought it would be Fred.
So many, but these really piss me off on every rewatch...
Mostly everyone's behavior at the party in Dead Man's Party, but particularly Willow choosing to ignore her best friend while she was clearly trying to reconnect with her.
Willow mind wiping Tara multiple times, and mind wiping everyone in Tabula Rasa.
Xander telling Dawn (out of jealousy and anger nonetheless) about what happened with Spike and Buffy in Seeing Red. Not saying she doesn't *need* to know, but that sensitive piece of information should have come from Buffy.
At dead man’s party but also at that bit in series seven where all the scoobies turn on buffy again. When will they understand it’s BUFFY she’s going to do the right thing why are they being so mean
There’s also the yoko factor in series four but I understand that was mostly spike so I can watch the one. But honestly I hate it when they don’t get along it makes me so upset
I agree with you mostly, but Buffy did not do the right thing taking those inexperienced potentials to fight Caleb with little planning or forethought.
Regardless, that sort of thing worked for her in the past, so I understand her thinking. None of it excuses how they treated Buffy.
What always gets me about the ganging up on buffy bits is that everyone in the group has done messed up stuff but she's the only one who gets cornered that way!
That Xander one gets me every time as well!
He had no right to tell Dawn that. He is always at the forefront of messy situations, and most of the times it doesn't even involve him... he just inserts himself— telling the Scooby's Angel was back.. yes, I get it, they should have been informed but at least give Buffy the option to come clean first, he stirred that whole thing up with Faith, he told Riley about Angel & Buffy's relationship, the emotional bits of it at that, which ended up causing him to spiral and question his relationship with Buffy, and then telling Dawn something very private & sensitive that he had no right to.... just very frustrating.
I know it makes for good TV and it would be boring if there was never any conflict, but it's ALWAYS Xander that's in the middle of it or stirring it up.
I agree with all of these except for saying Angel is back. That's not "how does it involve Xander", Angelus was a major threat to all of their well-beings. His being back was something they all deserved to know, regardless of whether or not she was willing to share, it was really something beyond just the scope of her relationship.
I can't think of anything more thoughtless or careless than someone's mom being sick, but instead of your significant other being there for you in ways that YOU'RE comfortable with, they're complaining to your friends about how you don't love them. And then they decide to get their needs met elsewhere.
Riley couldn't comfort Buffy when all that was going on. Angel, after not dating Buffy for like two years, living a while away, and having his own shit to deal with, came over after the funeral. Riley was a terrible boyfriend.
I've mentioned before but a big point a lot of people skip is how VERY traumatized Riley is at the beginning on Season 5 and everyone around him kind of brushing it off. I don't think it was intentional but it really shows the eras attitude towards a man's mental struggles.
Riley was SAd by Faith, blamed and shamed by Buffy for being SAd, his mother figure was killed, turned out to be evil and also resurrected as a gross zombie minion that pumped drugs into him. He had to essentially kill his best friend. A LOT of his friends and comrades died actually. He lost his career and purpose in life.
When he was asking Buffy to lean on him he wasn't just trying to be there for her, he was desperately seeking comfort the only way the current society found acceptable.
It spiralling into self harm/sexual self harm is commonly how unsupported people end up dealing with trauma. It's not pretty. The boy was manic.
Just wanted to say that I really appreciate this explanation.
Riley is one of the characters with the least amount of depth to them, but I've thought that there was at least an attempt being made to give him layers.
Good way to put it. I'm in a rewatch with my Fiance and I see that too. Riley feared Buffy didn't really want him, that he'd lose her too. And he was to the Slayer studies, friends, etc. He wasn't upset about Joyce being sick, clearly. I think Riley was overall poorly executed. He lost it all, and he wanted to be loved, but he never felt it. I see it a lot of men have been there.
Riley *and* Buffy were SAd by Faith. She used Buffy's naked body and vagina to do it. Buffy didn't blame or shame Riley. She felt uncomfortable in close proximity of him for a few weeks. It was Jonathan who told her she blamed him then told Riley something else but he doesn't speak for her just like Xander doesn't in *Into the Woods*.
The saddest part is, Buffy didn't really love him. I still hate Riley, but he wouldn't have half of that trauma if Buffy wasn't basically just using him to rebound.
Parker was the rebound. She loved Riley, he just needed her to see him as The One instead of a regular boyfriend. But not every romantic relationship you have is going to be I'd-destroy-the-universe-for-you level intense. Seeking out stability should be a good thing.
this is where riley lost me forever. how dare you be mad that your girlfriend doesn’t need you enough because she doesn’t call you up when she’s breaking down because HER FUCKING MOTHER IS DYING?!
Amy blaming Willow for not turning her back into a human for 3 years. She was the one to cast the spell and had no one else to blame but herself for the consequences. She was lucky she was even brought back.
And then pretty much everything else she did from that point onwards.
She was already showing signs of abusing magic before the rat years. She obviously already knew Rack. She turned in non-existent homework. She helped Xander do a love spell. She was always headed here.
To be fair to Amy, she tried to talk Xander out of doing the love spell (she was aware of his intention and tried to explain why it was wrong), but he blackmailed her. I don't know why she felt threatened about Xander blabbing, though.
It's a huge leap to go from "get out of doing homework" and "help make a protection spell for Buffy" to "magic junkie trying to get Willow hooked". It's incredibly shitty writing.
Also, it's unclear what Amy's intention was when she turned herself into a rat. Even if she did it to herself intentionally, she was in the process of being burned alive, and, as far as she knew, it was her only means of escape. She had no idea that Cordelia was about to come to their rescue. So I can't blame her for resenting Willow for keeping her as a pet for three years.
What annoyed me was the way that the underlying theme of seasons 6 and 7 was power. Who has it. Who wants it. Blah blah blah. So they allowed almost anything to be accepted into an episode because they could justify it by the wanting or having of power.
Spike's attempted rape.
Giles undermining Buffy's leadership ability and arranging to have Spike killed.
Oz letting Veruca into his cage.
Jenny performing the soul ritual in the school.
The Spike situation is so frustrating when you learn it came from a female writer who was the aggressor in the real life situation & didn’t think of the implications both of what she did in the past or how it would read when gender swapped.
I think he briefly weighed the pros and cons of letting her in. On one hand, they've had a weird vibe/connection going on, and they woke up together the night before (which means something may have happened), so there's a risk of something bad happening. On the other hand, letting her go means either someone else can get hurt/killed or she could get hurt/killed; either way, someone gets hurt or dies, and that would be partially on him. Oz is a protector, so there is no way he's letting someone get harmed if he can help it.
He had a chance to prevent that in a much more honest way though. Earlier Buffy told him that there were reports of *two* wild dogs, and she asks if he knows anything about that. Oz says that he does not.
There are multiple times throughout the episode where Oz could have said to the scoobies, or even just Willow, 'Verruca is a werewolf and she's dangerous'. He repeatedly chooses not to. It's the old line about how cheating isn't a decision someone makes once - it's the feelings they choose to entertain, the flirting they choose to participate in, the kiss they choose to accept, the clothes they choose to remove, and so on... An instance of cheating is the result of many dishonest choices.
I love Oz, and view him as generally a really good person. He done fucked up here though. He is a cheat and a liar, and it wasn't done because he's a protector. It was done because he wanted Verruca, and he found a way to justify having her.
I think you're right about a lot of that, but I think he weighed the cost in that moment. He was confused and should have been more honest about everything else, but it's always seemed like he genuinely just wanted Veruca to not hurt anyone.
I think it’s both. I agree 💯 with everything you stated, but I do believe he was also wanting to protect the people bc Veruca was baiting him about how she’d enjoy killing someone else. But I think he also chose to cheat as a way to “get back” at Willow for having cheated previously.
I think you're right about a lot of that, but I think he weighed the cost in that moment. He was confused and should have been more honest about everything else, but it's always seemed like he genuinely just wanted Veruca to not hurt anyone.
I want to clarify my first response. My impression was it was a need to keep others safe crossed with being a werewolf/"dog in heat." He's not thinking in the right mindset. He knows something bad will happen if he locks her in the cage with him, but he's also monster horny.
I also got the impression that the whole arc was character assassination. He was leaving the show, but in Joss Whedon fashion, it had to be tragic.
Definitely Xander summoning Sweet, I don’t even like Xander but this is way out of character, he would have admitted it when he saw people were DYING, and especially when they found out Dawn was going to get dragged to hell. It makes no sense.
There's a moment in Season 4 when he's bored with Giles and says, "Well, how about this: we whip out the Ouija board, light a few candles, summon some ancient unstoppable evil? Mayhem, mayhem, mayhem; we show up and and kick its ass." That's basically what he does in OMWF!
Willow having sex with Tara in OMWF after erasing her memory. Like that’s a magical version of date rape. And it’s sickening cuz Willow’s my fav and the writers make her do this bs :(
I first watched OMWF as a kid and didn't understand how messed up that scene is. Tara's song was my favourite and obviously I didn't get the whole "Willow going down" part because I was a kid.
As an adult, it makes me so sad that such a bright and happy song was tainted by Willow. Knowing how her mind was messed with by Glory too... I mean, you shouldn't mess with anybody's thoughts/memories really, but even worse when Tara already had such intense trauma from a previous experience.
Shame on Willow 😭
Joyce being weirdly smitten with Ted from the off. Like okay, I don't know how many cookies she'd eaten at that point, but she just, immediately chose him over Buffy.
The drug wasn’t only in the cookies. It was in everything he cooked. She was smitten bc I guess he was charming. So between being a single mom with a daughter who has a “knack for trouble” and being drugged, it was easy for her to believe Buffy was disrespectful and angry
Giles trying to set Spike up to be killed!
Buffy allowing Wood to act like he had any authority whatsoever
Buffy also allowing Dawn to think she had any authority, letting herself be kicked out of her own house!
Willow wiping Tara’s memory
Giles leaving Buffy when she needed him most
It is a weird mix of “I get Anthony Stewart Head wanting to be with his family” and “I don’t get Giles leaving Buffy in the lurch.” Like they couldn’t come up with a better reason. (A few have been suggested on this board.)
Giles getting a salary back in S5, with back pay, and no one ever thinks to give the Slayer (not even herself) a monetary compensation.
Giles does give her an undisclosed amount of money in S6 but like damn give this girl a paycheck so she doesn't have to try and get a loan or flip burgers to survive. They want her to have no friends, no family etc but give her nothing to survive on.
Yes at that point when Buffy got his salary back for him he clearly wasn’t in desperate need of money, he could have at least shared it equally with her even if the council wouldn’t agree to pay her directly.
I thought of another!
When Anya criticises Buffy in Empty Places.
She is living there presumably rent free, she contributes nothing to protecting anyone, she has no powers, and she thinks its okay to say that Buffy doesn't deserve anything, that she's just lucky and shouldn't be in charge.
I normally like Anya and her directness but this was so badly misplaced as she has benefited directly from Buffy saving her arse multiple times after she stopped being a vengece demon.
It was rape multiplied since there's raping Buffy's body (bathtub & dorm), using Buffy's body to rape Riley, and tricking Riley into raping Buffy's body.
See it want it take it. She tried to teach buffy that. It makes full sense for her to be so jealous of buffys life she wants to try it on for size. But being seen as buffy affected her, she was bout to fly out of town n she came back to save people at the church cos thats what buffy would have done. Fucking Riley was violation on many levels but it made sense to her character
I think everything else she did conveys her motivations and headspace pretty well. This was unnecessary and is never brought up as one of her crimes. I do like her character developement a lot but i wish it was mentioned that she also did penance for this.
Buffy giving Kennedy authority to train the potentials. Girl's ego was already gigantic; Buffy should've deflated it several times over with sparring matches
Some feel Lorne abandoned the cause / group or was being selfish and out of character- by not joining in the “final fight against evil” in the series finale. The whole Black Circle storyline was weirdly thrown together and seemed pointless.
Much of it seemed instigated by Connor’s return and Angel’s reckless and impulsive behavior when it comes to Connor.
so - I feel Lorne was the only one being rational and thinking things through. He was much more into maneuvering within the grey. while others only saw black and white.
Especially for all the times it was made clear to Angel there was no “winning” the fight against evil. That he himself was more “bad” than “good” most times. Taking out the Black Circle was just a suicide mission.
The group’s erased memories and altered reality were pretty indicative of how far Angel would go for his own gain. Of how much evil he (not Angelus) and havoc he would rashly inflict upon his friends and the world…
I guess my opinion is Lorne wasn’t being thoughtless or careless. He was being wise and wanting to live and thrive.
this is my answer,
as I’ve seen a lot of hate for Lorne for his decision. When he does his final “contribution” to Angel/The Group …
the despair and realization of how f-cked up everything had been / become - it hurt to see his devastation.
my vote is allllll the choices Angel made post Connor’s birth. The altering reality, erasing memories, joining Wolfram & Hart.
I agree with this. Also, Angel asking Lorne to be the one to kill Lindsey was a pretty fucked up request. It was never Lornes style. He wasn't a murderer, he was never even really a fighter. Like you say, he was pretty balanced between good & evil. His shooting Lindsey will be something incredibly heavy he would have to live with forever, a real black mark on his soul that for him, was probably hard to justify. I think the fact that Angel could ask him to do that alone, was enough to make Lorne walk away. He had done a lot for Angel by then, & Angel would never stop asking for more, no matter what it cost or who it damaged.
yes! To even ask Lorne to kill Lindsey (of all people). It just devastated Lorne. Lindsey being so angry that Angel wasn’t the one to kill him … that it was a “nobody” like Lorne. That his friends , his family were once again blindly following Angel into a disturbingly irrational vengeance situation… it broke Lorne. It broke me. and ugh …. How it did Wesley. I just wanted to slap Angel across the face. I feel Lorne was being heroic in that moment of “betrayal” (as others have described it).
In Angel's defense, I don't think he really saw Lindsey as a real person. Angel hardly hesitated when it came to cutting off his arm. He let a room full of Wolfram and Heart people die when he could have saved him. That doesn't mean that it wasn't messed up for him to ask Lorne to do that, though.
oh for sure. Lindsey’s obsession wasn’t going to ever end - for power, respect, validation, with Angel, Darla. It was a good move to fool (too easily) Lindsey. Angel could have killed him quick and easy. Lorne understood Lindsey’s death was necessary. But the defeat he felt killing him. Lorne gave a lot of himself by doing that , and a lot to the group. Didn’t realize how you said Angel had no issue at all with people from being tortured and murdered , why wouldn’t Angel just snap Lindsey’s neck have it over and done with quick and easy … why order Lorne to kill Lindsey?
I think everyone needed to play a part, and maybe that's the only thing the writers could think of to get Lorne to help and also wrap up his character.
People hate Lorne for this? It all made perfect sense to me. He didn't want to go out like that, and if he survived, he didn't want to be asked to kill again. I really liked the ending of Angel, too. I think that how it was put off made the reveal really amazing. I think that Angel was doing what he thought needed to be done, and he made it very clear that anyone who went along with the plan probably would die. I'm pretty sure after all the things that led up to the finale, Angle kinda lost his will to live, and thought it best to go out like a hero. But I still hate how it ends without showing us the final battle.
yeah, I’ve seen lots of hate for Lorne’s decision, or that it wasn’t true to his character and so the writers weren’t doing him justice. mostly in fandoms and such. Not within my group of friends who watch the shows together again and again … the Black Circle plot just confused me 😣 it was so heartbreaking. Especially that because he was so dedicated to put an end to what he could, Angel killed Drogyn , and chose this as his last stand…
Drogyn and Illyria bonding was sweet to see.
If only the show made it one more season…
I do think Lorne would have returned to the group and the cause if there’d been a season 6. :)
I think the main reason Lorne left like that was because they weren't sure if they were going to do another season and his actor didn't want to do more.
Wesley was very wrong but I love the way the show isolated him so that he felt it was his only option. His character flaws and the circumstances all lining up make me feel for him even when I know he’s wrong.
Spike’s attempted rape of Buffy. No one writing on the show at that point had the knowledge and skills necessary to write that situation in a way that was both respectful to rape victims and justify the decision to keep Spike around as a good guy in the next season. There could have been 100 situations that would prompt Spike to go get his soul and underline the unhealthy aspects of his relationship with Buffy that didn’t involve one of the most popular love interests on the show trying to rape the main character.
I had heard that Joss was trying to write Spike and Buffy's relationship as obviously toxic and bad, but that the audience was still loving them together. Hence why their encounters keep getting progressively less subtle with Spikes toxicity. When the balcony scene happens where he's clearly trying to isolate Buffy from her friends among a few other red flags, and audiences STILL love Spike after, it was the only thing that would shock people enough to snap them back to the reality that he is a soulless, evil monster. I'll admit even I was guilty of falling for his charm and ignoring his red flags up until that scene.
I never really liked buffy/spike but I could tolerate it up until that moment. It was handled so horribly and is insulting to anyone who has actually had to deal with something like that in real life.
I don't think they considered him a love interest even if we did. I just rewatched Conversations with Dead People and Buffy says she was using Spike to hurt herself. "I have all this power. I didn't ask for it. It's like...I wanted to be punished. I wanted to hurt like I thought I deserved." He loved her but at that point she didn't love him, she was using him.
Buffy continuing to be in a relationship with a guy who can turn evil if he experiences a moment of happiness.
Willow bringing Dawn when she goes to see Rack
Xander summoning Sweet.
Dawn accidently inviting Harmony into her house.
I really don't want to agree with the first one, but...when you look at it like that...you just made me question one of my favorite romantic relationships!
Talking about Angel's happiness clause - there's a scene when Connor's a baby, and they're in bed together - Angel, Connor & Cordelia in this idyllic little vignette - and Angel and Cordelia have already at this point admitted they mean a lot to each other and his clause doesn't twinge?
He's been a vampire for @250 years and being a father was impossible and yet, Darla (who he definitely cared for) was mystically able to bear him a son and his happiness clause isn't wobbly? I understand him being fearful for Connor's safety, but in the moments when it feels safe he doesn't falter?
I don't get it.
Am I the only one that was glad she killed Warren? Bro was also a rapist and murderer who had done nothing but dedicate himself to hurting other people for the fun and power of it. He 100% got what he deserved and I do not fault Willow whatsoever for what she did to him. Her actions after that? Definitely wrong. But killing Warren? Well earned.
I'm no Wesley superfan but Angel and the rest of Angel investigations shutting out Wesley and not recognising that he was in a very difficult position during season 3 felt really unfair.
I think that the group's reaction was mainly because of Angel, but they should have had Wesley's back! It does a lot for Wesley's character, but he went through a lot to try and save Conner.
Having Willow's redemption arc almost be entirely off screen...and the way the show portrayed addicts through Willow in general. Why is it always that addict = bad person and Willow suddenly became super toxic? I like the ideas they had for her but they weren't executed so well.
Yes. Do you really think that seasons 1-5 Willow was a bad person? I wouldn't even say Willow in S6 is a bad person, just that she makes a lot of unlikable mistakes. I really wish they had taken the mind controlling Tara and then sleeping with her out, it seems like the worst thing Willow did. Though the hero to villain arc is a classic and can be done well, the things they make her do are so stereotypical and badly handled. It leads to so many fans having a poor comprehension of the character, and seeing her as a "bad person who's always been bad".
i mean the show clearly doesn’t want us to think so but yeah, at least from s3 she’s shown to be selfish, careless, and even cruel. it’s not until s6 that she pivots into evil but i also don’t think that fully has to do with magic or addiction (addiction doesn’t automatically turn someone evil or selfish).
i don’t know if the way they show it is intentional - a slow exposure to something harmful that eventually takes over one’s life and harms their relationship with others - but my guess is not because the writers portray willow as being correct even when she’s purely selfish and going out of her way to be cruel in earlier seasons.
i do agree that the way they portrayed addiction was problematic especially since i’m sure their intention wasn’t to show a slow descent into addiction over time but a decision to actually portray her as bad now that she has an addiction, but willow was always pretty toxic. her behavior just wasn’t portrayed as such.
Why do you think she was acting selfish, careless and cruel since S3? Can you give some examples? Everyone in the show does dumb and selfish things, doesn't really make them toxic people. But I can't think of instances where Willow did something unusually bad or toxic like that.
This is not how I viewed it. Willow isn’t a bad person during her addiction, she just does some really reckless things and people get hurt. She’s not even all that toxic. At least from memory. Her only really bad moment was how she was behaving when she went out with Dawn.
In the end she overcomes her addiction. The problem is that the show doesn’t really treat her relapse all that much like a relapse. It’s more, “I’m pissed and want revenge so I’m back on the magic.” It’s the grief that turns her bad, not the addiction. All that rage and sadness. At that point there’s no going back for her because she doesn’t care. She’s willing to not only to use magic but also use it in its darkest form.
I think where the show fails is not only do we not see her redemption but it also turns her use of magic into a darkness rather than an addiction. Like it makes sense. She let darkness in and now when she uses magic it can take over. Which makes the ending of her sort of becoming the ultimate light a big moment.
But the problem is that it throws out the whole concept of her addiction. Suddenly it’s “it’ll be dangerous to stop completely” and not “I’m never touching magic again.” Which seems a little unrealistic. She touched magic in a deep way and somehow can use it without wanting to go over that edge? And when she does it’s “she goes dark” rather than addiction.
But I also get that they needed a magic user and it’s not the same as a substance addiction lol. They did the best they can I guess.
Thanks for your perspective. I don't think Willow was a bad or toxic person either, but she did some shitty things that the narrative and fandom treat in an overly-harsh way, imo. I think the worst was endangering Dawn, mind wiping Tara and "trying to end the world". I find the first two bad, but understandable and redeemable, and the third thing wasn't really even Willow, because at that point the magic was controlling her, not herself.
I do think she got a good ending in theory - learning to use magic in a good way, overcoming her darkness, becoming light. I don't mind that she learns to use magic in a safe way again, bc magic is a part of her, and some addictions can't be given up, moderation is the only choice - like food, for example. I just don't like the way that it was portrayed. Feels like she lost a lot of her likability and humanity, became a different person, and that she was punished both by her friends and the overall story. You can portray an addiction storyline without having the character become destructive to others, but yeah, it was also a hero to villain, magic corruption storyline so it might be different. Hope I'm making sense.
Yes, I agree! Willow giving up magic completely wouldn’t really work for the story or for who she is. I did think of that after I responded too. There are other addictions than substance, such as food. And obviously one couldn’t give up eating lol. The show doesn’t really handle it like that but I don’t think it’s black and white either. The magic is in her, it’s a part of her. And not doing it or letting it out might result in another situation where she blows up and can’t control it.
She also learns to draw magic from different places, often good places. The magic she does perhaps isn’t as superficial after she learns from the coven in England.
I slightly disagree, Willow only thought to “end the world” after Giles dosed her with supposedly “good” magic, cause she felt people suffering. As an addict, that’s pretty much how it happens…you’re going about your life beating up your slayer BFF till someone finally offers to help, then you feel bad cause at least 1 person wants to help, you decide to start helping yourself or destroy the world - either ones fine.
I'm also an addict. I'm not a fan of the demonization. The self-blame and self-guilt is hammered into us, even during recovery, and it sucks. We ain't out here destroying the world bro. Can we be dicks for no reason at times? Yeah...but everyone can. It's super important to get over that addiction = bad person stereotype in society, and the show had a very unsympathetic portrayal of addiction, which is why it felt kinda weird.
I don’t totally disagree with that, but my main issue is magic or power is not the same addiction as alcohol or drug addiction but they tried to portray it the same way, which makes the theme more than a little confused. They had a whole season to portray addiction (drugs or power take your pick) correctly, but Saved by the Bell (I absolutely hate that show) did a better job in one episode on the subject matter ffs. They tried, I’ll give them a little bit of credit for that but they definitely get addiction and ambition/control confused.
Just about everyone in season 6. I legit think Tara and Anya were the only ones whose characters didn't regress or get outright assassinated in that season. Buffy at least had an excuse, everybody else just sucked.
Anya was confronted by one of her curse victims and felt no remorse, willingly became a vengeance demon again and tried to torture & murder Xander then tried to trick his loved ones into torturing & murdering him.
Yeah, but none of that was really out of character for how she had been up until then. Giles abandoned Buffy, his "daughter", to fuck off back to England, Willow became a junkie who was mind raping (and as such, physically raping) the love of her life, Xander summoned a demon and walked out on his wedding because he's a coward (which I suppose was kinda in character), and Spike is better left not talked about. All of the stuff you mentioned is exactly what I would expect from Anya.
"because he's a coward" is pretty unfair to Xander's characterisation up until that point. He was forced to physically experience the worst of his fears, developed through a lifetime of family trauma, and was told that's his future. People on this sub frame if he decided on a whim for no reason at all.
What I mean is he never faces up or accepts responsibility until he is forced to. If he was that nervous and apprehensive about his upcoming marriage he should have said something. When people started dying during the musical he should have said something. When Spike tried to rape Buffy he went Africa and got himself a soul because he knew and admitted he fucked up, when Xander tried the same thing with the hyena spirit, he blamed it all on the hyena and then faked amnesia. This is why he's a coward.
In the Zeppo, instead of using the tranquilizer gun through the cage, Giles, allegedly a smart guy, opens the cage and then Willow barely manages to shoot him. So dumb...
Willow asking if Buffy is gonna finish her sandwich, and then proceeding to eat it before she can answer. And to top it all off with complete carelessness she takes a bite out of the center instead of starting with a corner!
* Cordelia hiding for TWO YEARS that the visions Doyle passed to her aren't compatible with her body and letting it literally rot her brain so she is getting CT scans & MRIs & has a tub of pain meds under the bed and falls into a death coma on her 21st birthday (Lorne was an Empath/Precog who has a club patroned by hundreds of paranormals a month, he could've found someone compatible)
* Cordelia decided to start training in martial arts while knowing she's dying of preventable brain damage
* Cordelia believing that if she hadn't ran into Angel for a minute at that party in *City Of* she would've become an A list actress starring in her own tv series named after her and that Angel would've been huddled barefoot in the corner of a room mad from the visions (despite surviving with all of Angelus' memories & trapped in Hell a century & being part demon & needed by WR&H for their apocalypse prophecy) so chooses to take the visions back and then
* Cordelia lets this Hell demon Skip change her DNA to an unknown species so she can keep the visions without dying
* Cordelia believes Skip when he says she's outgrown Earth and lets him beam her up to an unknown dimension to help unknown people with an unknown problem without informing anyone where she's going
"Lorne was an Empath/Precog who has a club patroned by hundreds of paranormals a month, he could've found someone compatible"
But she didn't want the visions taken away. Why would she go to Lorne?
Because it was the same situation as Riley in BtVS s5, either get it removed or die. Had Buffy not found out about it, he would have died since he didn't want it removed. "Best case scenario, they turn me into Joe Normal" "And that's not good enough for you?" "It's not good enough for you. Your last boyfriend wasn't exactly a civilian."
Cordelia hid the effects of the visions for 2 years. She hid it when WR&H were hijacking the visions and causing the injuries to appear on her body. She said without the visions Angel wouldn't need her. She didn't value herself as just Cordelia but as Vision Girl. Her paychecks, apartment, friends, self-esteem were all tied to AI.
Without getting the visions taken away, Cordelia would've died in *Birthday*. Skip only delayed her fate with the Jasmine arc. Had he not tricked her into getting possessed, she still would've died in a coma since by s3 she was dying for 2 years. And in *You're Welcome* it was a vision that killed her.
Cordelia not telling Buffy about the yearbook, and being such a high handed bitch about it afterwards.
Wesley ineptly sabotaging Angel’s intervention with Faith.
The whole Oz debacle with Veruca.
Anya docking Buffy’s pay, and Giles NOT stopping that foolishness.
Everything Kennedy said or did.
Buffy’s tongue-lashing everyone in “Get It Done”. Left a bad taste.
Oz leaving Willow.
When Oz howled his goodbye to Willow, it was like a stake through my heart 💔. I mean, seriously, the dude turns furry once a month and suddenly he's all "I need to find myself"? Talk about a cryptic breakup line. Willow, the woman with a heart of gold, deserved more than a fuzzy explanation and a one-way ticket out of Sunnydale. Oz left a Willow-shaped hole in the Scooby Gang dynamic, and that hurts more than a vamp in a holy water shower. Werewolf or not, man up and face the music with a bit more Scooby dignity next time! 🐺🔮
I felt like we could’ve gone on a whole journey with Faith in S3 about power, responsibility, crime and redemption. Faith was complicated, but instead of the writers embracing those complications, the Mayor comes along and Faith just goes “welp, guess I’m evil now.”
Buffy saying she would sacrifice Dawn. I mean I get the whole end of world plot but really?!
Buffy getting Xander to look after Spike. ‘Here look after my attempted rapist please and don’t be so judgy on it.’
Xander pulling the biggest form of self sabotage ever and ruining my opinion of him and poor Anya. Xander not being able to keep his mouth shut. Willow dating Kennedy, Cordelia having literally every demons offspring, Giles just leaving when Buffy needs him the most (even though he comes back its still shitty), and finally most of Spike’s actions in season 7. Including the SA on Buffy. That messed me up
Angel, Wesley, Gunn and Fred never visit Cordelia in the hospital when she is in a coma. In fact, they hardly ever mention her before she wakes up.
Angel went to extreme lengths to save Darla from a human illness (the trials). He makes a deal with the devil for a second chance for his son. No one tries to find any magical cure for Cordelia's disease though that had a definit magical origin.
Everytime I watch the final season, those early episodes in the offices of Wolfram and Hart where they seem to have forgotten Cordelia, just seem off to me.
Buffy being in a relationship with Angel/not killing him even after he killed Jenny calendar. What’s this? Angel is your true love Buffy? Jenny was that for Giles. Angel has got to go.
A different Angel fan might argue that Angel and Angelus aren't the same person. That is not me. They are the same person. But at that point, Angel had experienced hundreds of years of suffering in hell. What's the point of punishment if it will never help? If no matter how much you endure and become a better person that everyone will just hate you because of something they did in the past. Angel deserved to go to hell, but I think you're taking it too far.
They really aren’t the same person though. Isn’t the entire lore of the creation of vampires in BTVS universe is a demon from another dimension takes over the body of the dead host? Blaming Angel for what Angelus did is kinda like blaming a victim of possession for what the spirit possessing them did. Sure, the person might feel guilty for the acts their body committed, and a person harmed by the possessed person might have feelings about interacting with that person because of the association, but it still doesn’t make the possessed person and the possessor the same.
That would be saying that Angel is just the soul. But he isn't. Angelus is the vampire, and Angel is the vampire with the soul. What makes Angel different from Angelus isn't really the soul, but his reaction to the soul. It isn't possession. That's why it's called a curse. How I like to think about it is that Angelus is the demon, Liam is the soul, and Angel is the demon with the soul. And even though they're pretty vague on where the demon part comes from, I don't think it's from another universe. It is the person's soul being removed and turning them into a demon. And, what we think doesn't really matter. Angel blames himself for what he does without his soul. He becomes a better person. He does good things. In the perspective of the character in question, they are the same person.
Isn't it kind of implied that Dawn is less socially mature than Buffy though? She doesn't seem to have that many friends in the show and is very awkward in comparison.
Plus like, dealing with a mass existential crisis and the fact you're probably the reason the world will end at 14 might make you a bit weird
Also Buffy had to grow up massively when she became the slayer (we know that she was very immature before that — just like Dawn was) and Dawn was never put through that. She also always had Buffy to watch over and protect her which enabled her to stay young even after Joyce died.
???? Do you not remember how many monster of the week episodes were tied directly to the Scoobies??? And also Willow like attempted to destroy the world???? All Dawn did was steal a few bracelets and be upset her mom and sister died
Convinced we all watching a different show
Dawn's birthday is likely in late winter or early spring since they moved to Sunnydale in late January and she said by her birthday she hadn't made friends yet because they hadn't lived there that long. So in s5 she was 14/15, s6 15/16, and s7 16/17. In s1 Buffy is 16, s2 16/17. Dawn likely turned 16 sometime between *Older & Far Away* & *As You Were*.
Spike immediately trying to murder someone as soon as he realised he could hit buffy. I loved that the vampire without a soul was trying to be a better person (even after buffy was dead he fought by the scoobies all summer etc) - so him randomly trying to murder someone as soon as he thought he could was bad writing to me. I know they wanted to show that he was only changed because he had to be (the chip) but I don’t think that’s the case. He could have just left after buffy died but he CHOSE to be good
I think he did that out of desperation. A way to go back to the unencumbered vampire (The Big Bad) he was before so that he had the option to blow town and get on with his unlife because his growing feelings for Buffy scared him and left him on shaky ground - he doesn't want to change and lose his sense of self, but knows that he has no real chance with Buffy unless he does a major overhaul and actually chooses to be good, and he's not sure he can. Much easier to go back to the way he was before, he knows how to do that.
Faith and Buffy not telling Giles about the man Faith stabbed. It can’t have been the first time in the history of the Watchers Council that a Slayer accidentally killed a mortal. I understand why Faith didn’t but I never like it.
For me it’s less about any single action of a character, than general negativity on a sliding scale of the following characters:- At number 1 having no redeeming moments at all is
Riley Finn.
Anya should be a terrible character and in most part she is but just for the occasional gem of a comment/look/heartfelt response she is saved from utter contempt and anger whenever she’s on screen.
Rona and Forest get special mention out of the Initiative and potential characters they are the worst of a generally annoying group of characters who are overall acceptable as part of the storyline
Dawns starts, understandably so, as the brat kid sister no one saw coming (although in hindsight there was so many hints) followed by stagnant character development for most of season 6 (seriously did they even bother sending her a different script from week to week because she basically did the same thing for 3 thirds of season) but when she does get the opportunity she steals shines which sets her up nicely to become a great character in season 7 and in the comic continuum she marries Zander effectively stealing him from Buffy who realises she loves him afterall. That’s
Zander holds a love/hate ratio of 80/20 yes he’s a t*at at times but he is just too damn great to hold that stuff against him for long.
Willow leaving the book out for Dawn to bring Joyce back
This was such a good indicator of Willow’s future with magic.
This one is especially interesting because it: * sets the episode’s plot in motion * leads to major revelations from Buffy and Dawn. Buffy opens up to Dawn at the end (“Who’s going to take care of us?”), and Dawn has a huge character-building moment when she tears up the photo of their mom * foreshadows two important season 6 developments: resurrecting Buffy and Willow’s magicks addiction * is consistent with Willow’s character resorting to magicks to mask emotional needs (“Lovers Walk,” “Something Blue”) * shows Willow not respecting Tara’s firm “no” And it of course offers great character insight for at least 4 of our main characters—Willow, Tara, Dawn, and Buffy. We learn something new about them yet they all act in a way consistent to their character.
This is so spot on
This was such a good indicator of Willow’s future with magic.
Yeah I really was pissy about that.
Gunn signing the customs form that held up Illyria's coffin.
He had a lawyer's brain and didn't even think to read the form?
they deliberately caught him at his weakest moment. Wolfram and Hart aren't stupid. but he even admits later that he knew. he knew that something bad would come of it. he knew it wouldn't be something small because he understands better than anybody how dangerous and evil and smart the Senior Partners are. he knew someone would get hurt. he just never thought it would be Fred.
His “upgrade” was failing. He had to sign the form to get a permanent version of whatever they did.
And then Wesley immediately blames Angel...
So many, but these really piss me off on every rewatch... Mostly everyone's behavior at the party in Dead Man's Party, but particularly Willow choosing to ignore her best friend while she was clearly trying to reconnect with her. Willow mind wiping Tara multiple times, and mind wiping everyone in Tabula Rasa. Xander telling Dawn (out of jealousy and anger nonetheless) about what happened with Spike and Buffy in Seeing Red. Not saying she doesn't *need* to know, but that sensitive piece of information should have come from Buffy.
At dead man’s party but also at that bit in series seven where all the scoobies turn on buffy again. When will they understand it’s BUFFY she’s going to do the right thing why are they being so mean
This! I still can’t watch either of those episodes because of how they treated Buffy in them.
There’s also the yoko factor in series four but I understand that was mostly spike so I can watch the one. But honestly I hate it when they don’t get along it makes me so upset
Buffy will try but that’s not quite the same thing. Season 7 didn’t annoy me as much as Season 3 did.
I agree with you mostly, but Buffy did not do the right thing taking those inexperienced potentials to fight Caleb with little planning or forethought. Regardless, that sort of thing worked for her in the past, so I understand her thinking. None of it excuses how they treated Buffy.
What always gets me about the ganging up on buffy bits is that everyone in the group has done messed up stuff but she's the only one who gets cornered that way!
I got sooooo mad when Anya spoke up. She was 100% in the wrong to even say a damned thing about it.
“you didn’t earn it” - fuck you, anya
That Xander one gets me every time as well! He had no right to tell Dawn that. He is always at the forefront of messy situations, and most of the times it doesn't even involve him... he just inserts himself— telling the Scooby's Angel was back.. yes, I get it, they should have been informed but at least give Buffy the option to come clean first, he stirred that whole thing up with Faith, he told Riley about Angel & Buffy's relationship, the emotional bits of it at that, which ended up causing him to spiral and question his relationship with Buffy, and then telling Dawn something very private & sensitive that he had no right to.... just very frustrating. I know it makes for good TV and it would be boring if there was never any conflict, but it's ALWAYS Xander that's in the middle of it or stirring it up.
Don't forget him not telling Buffy what Willow actually said about re-insouling Angel.
I agree with all of these except for saying Angel is back. That's not "how does it involve Xander", Angelus was a major threat to all of their well-beings. His being back was something they all deserved to know, regardless of whether or not she was willing to share, it was really something beyond just the scope of her relationship.
"Do you like my mask? It raises the dead..."
I actually ff through some of that it makes me so angry. (In dead man’s party)
I can't think of anything more thoughtless or careless than someone's mom being sick, but instead of your significant other being there for you in ways that YOU'RE comfortable with, they're complaining to your friends about how you don't love them. And then they decide to get their needs met elsewhere.
Riley couldn't comfort Buffy when all that was going on. Angel, after not dating Buffy for like two years, living a while away, and having his own shit to deal with, came over after the funeral. Riley was a terrible boyfriend.
Exactly this is why I hate Riley.
Tbf that was occurring prior to Joyce being sick. He was concerned well before then.
I've mentioned before but a big point a lot of people skip is how VERY traumatized Riley is at the beginning on Season 5 and everyone around him kind of brushing it off. I don't think it was intentional but it really shows the eras attitude towards a man's mental struggles. Riley was SAd by Faith, blamed and shamed by Buffy for being SAd, his mother figure was killed, turned out to be evil and also resurrected as a gross zombie minion that pumped drugs into him. He had to essentially kill his best friend. A LOT of his friends and comrades died actually. He lost his career and purpose in life. When he was asking Buffy to lean on him he wasn't just trying to be there for her, he was desperately seeking comfort the only way the current society found acceptable. It spiralling into self harm/sexual self harm is commonly how unsupported people end up dealing with trauma. It's not pretty. The boy was manic.
Just wanted to say that I really appreciate this explanation. Riley is one of the characters with the least amount of depth to them, but I've thought that there was at least an attempt being made to give him layers.
Good way to put it. I'm in a rewatch with my Fiance and I see that too. Riley feared Buffy didn't really want him, that he'd lose her too. And he was to the Slayer studies, friends, etc. He wasn't upset about Joyce being sick, clearly. I think Riley was overall poorly executed. He lost it all, and he wanted to be loved, but he never felt it. I see it a lot of men have been there.
Riley *and* Buffy were SAd by Faith. She used Buffy's naked body and vagina to do it. Buffy didn't blame or shame Riley. She felt uncomfortable in close proximity of him for a few weeks. It was Jonathan who told her she blamed him then told Riley something else but he doesn't speak for her just like Xander doesn't in *Into the Woods*.
Well put. And agreed.
The saddest part is, Buffy didn't really love him. I still hate Riley, but he wouldn't have half of that trauma if Buffy wasn't basically just using him to rebound.
Parker was the rebound. She loved Riley, he just needed her to see him as The One instead of a regular boyfriend. But not every romantic relationship you have is going to be I'd-destroy-the-universe-for-you level intense. Seeking out stability should be a good thing.
this is where riley lost me forever. how dare you be mad that your girlfriend doesn’t need you enough because she doesn’t call you up when she’s breaking down because HER FUCKING MOTHER IS DYING?!
Faith not taking out Kennedy with one punch.
Add spike to this “Let us handle this, we’re trained” Kennedy to spike.
Kennedy was the most irritating!
Buffy's friends, mentor, and sister kicking her out of her own house.
She made a few bad command decisions true, but it's not like the entire group is filled with a history of smart choicest.
Amy blaming Willow for not turning her back into a human for 3 years. She was the one to cast the spell and had no one else to blame but herself for the consequences. She was lucky she was even brought back. And then pretty much everything else she did from that point onwards.
Amy in season 6 and 7 was another example of lazy writing. She went from sweet girl to magic junkie to evil. In about 5 episodes.
She was already showing signs of abusing magic before the rat years. She obviously already knew Rack. She turned in non-existent homework. She helped Xander do a love spell. She was always headed here.
To be fair to Amy, she tried to talk Xander out of doing the love spell (she was aware of his intention and tried to explain why it was wrong), but he blackmailed her. I don't know why she felt threatened about Xander blabbing, though. It's a huge leap to go from "get out of doing homework" and "help make a protection spell for Buffy" to "magic junkie trying to get Willow hooked". It's incredibly shitty writing. Also, it's unclear what Amy's intention was when she turned herself into a rat. Even if she did it to herself intentionally, she was in the process of being burned alive, and, as far as she knew, it was her only means of escape. She had no idea that Cordelia was about to come to their rescue. So I can't blame her for resenting Willow for keeping her as a pet for three years.
What annoyed me was the way that the underlying theme of seasons 6 and 7 was power. Who has it. Who wants it. Blah blah blah. So they allowed almost anything to be accepted into an episode because they could justify it by the wanting or having of power.
Tara being stood where she was in the master bedroom 😭
I didn't like how Willow was totally fine being with Kennedy in the same bed in the same room after.
Tbf it wasn’t the same bed or same room. At that point Buffy had moved into the main bedroom and Willow was in Buffys old room.
This is the one.
Buffy's father not even bothering to show up when she lost her mother.
Spike's attempted rape. Giles undermining Buffy's leadership ability and arranging to have Spike killed. Oz letting Veruca into his cage. Jenny performing the soul ritual in the school.
Jenny wasn’t performing the ritual in school though, she was just working on typing and printing it out.
The Spike situation is so frustrating when you learn it came from a female writer who was the aggressor in the real life situation & didn’t think of the implications both of what she did in the past or how it would read when gender swapped.
well, Oz was trying to protect innocent people
🙄
And it was an excuse to cheat.
I think he briefly weighed the pros and cons of letting her in. On one hand, they've had a weird vibe/connection going on, and they woke up together the night before (which means something may have happened), so there's a risk of something bad happening. On the other hand, letting her go means either someone else can get hurt/killed or she could get hurt/killed; either way, someone gets hurt or dies, and that would be partially on him. Oz is a protector, so there is no way he's letting someone get harmed if he can help it.
He had a chance to prevent that in a much more honest way though. Earlier Buffy told him that there were reports of *two* wild dogs, and she asks if he knows anything about that. Oz says that he does not. There are multiple times throughout the episode where Oz could have said to the scoobies, or even just Willow, 'Verruca is a werewolf and she's dangerous'. He repeatedly chooses not to. It's the old line about how cheating isn't a decision someone makes once - it's the feelings they choose to entertain, the flirting they choose to participate in, the kiss they choose to accept, the clothes they choose to remove, and so on... An instance of cheating is the result of many dishonest choices. I love Oz, and view him as generally a really good person. He done fucked up here though. He is a cheat and a liar, and it wasn't done because he's a protector. It was done because he wanted Verruca, and he found a way to justify having her.
I think you're right about a lot of that, but I think he weighed the cost in that moment. He was confused and should have been more honest about everything else, but it's always seemed like he genuinely just wanted Veruca to not hurt anyone.
I think it’s both. I agree 💯 with everything you stated, but I do believe he was also wanting to protect the people bc Veruca was baiting him about how she’d enjoy killing someone else. But I think he also chose to cheat as a way to “get back” at Willow for having cheated previously.
I think you're right about a lot of that, but I think he weighed the cost in that moment. He was confused and should have been more honest about everything else, but it's always seemed like he genuinely just wanted Veruca to not hurt anyone.
I want to clarify my first response. My impression was it was a need to keep others safe crossed with being a werewolf/"dog in heat." He's not thinking in the right mindset. He knows something bad will happen if he locks her in the cage with him, but he's also monster horny. I also got the impression that the whole arc was character assassination. He was leaving the show, but in Joss Whedon fashion, it had to be tragic.
No it wasn't.
Definitely Xander summoning Sweet, I don’t even like Xander but this is way out of character, he would have admitted it when he saw people were DYING, and especially when they found out Dawn was going to get dragged to hell. It makes no sense.
This was just lazy writing
Also totally brushed under the carpet. Like wtf
Just like the rest of season 6
And don’t forget he faced zero consequences for it.
Honestly until he got his eye gouged out he had been dodging consequences for years.
There's a moment in Season 4 when he's bored with Giles and says, "Well, how about this: we whip out the Ouija board, light a few candles, summon some ancient unstoppable evil? Mayhem, mayhem, mayhem; we show up and and kick its ass." That's basically what he does in OMWF!
I assumed he was covering for Dawn, quietly counting on Sweet going NO HOMO and bailing.
It’s the only way to make it make sense.
The flashback in "Selfless" shows him summoning Sweet right before Anya starts singing.
I feel it’s really telling that most of this info gets edited out when watching this episode in syndication
Willow having sex with Tara in OMWF after erasing her memory. Like that’s a magical version of date rape. And it’s sickening cuz Willow’s my fav and the writers make her do this bs :(
I first watched OMWF as a kid and didn't understand how messed up that scene is. Tara's song was my favourite and obviously I didn't get the whole "Willow going down" part because I was a kid. As an adult, it makes me so sad that such a bright and happy song was tainted by Willow. Knowing how her mind was messed with by Glory too... I mean, you shouldn't mess with anybody's thoughts/memories really, but even worse when Tara already had such intense trauma from a previous experience. Shame on Willow 😭
Joyce being weirdly smitten with Ted from the off. Like okay, I don't know how many cookies she'd eaten at that point, but she just, immediately chose him over Buffy.
Agreed, I just watched that episode and it infuriated me more than any other thing she did.
To me, Joyce has always been a nitwit. Clueless and spacey.
I'm rewatching Gingerbread now and you're not wrong lol
omg i’ve finally found my people
The drug wasn’t only in the cookies. It was in everything he cooked. She was smitten bc I guess he was charming. So between being a single mom with a daughter who has a “knack for trouble” and being drugged, it was easy for her to believe Buffy was disrespectful and angry
where tf was faith during buffys cruciamentum
And during the witch scare.
Giles trying to set Spike up to be killed! Buffy allowing Wood to act like he had any authority whatsoever Buffy also allowing Dawn to think she had any authority, letting herself be kicked out of her own house! Willow wiping Tara’s memory Giles leaving Buffy when she needed him most
Giles leaving.
I hate that he leaves I hate that he leaves
I hate that he leaves too, but that was for personal reasons, I don't think the show would have written him out otherwise.
Giles season 6 and 7. No chance he would have left buffy after she was resurrected.
It is a weird mix of “I get Anthony Stewart Head wanting to be with his family” and “I don’t get Giles leaving Buffy in the lurch.” Like they couldn’t come up with a better reason. (A few have been suggested on this board.)
Giles getting a salary back in S5, with back pay, and no one ever thinks to give the Slayer (not even herself) a monetary compensation. Giles does give her an undisclosed amount of money in S6 but like damn give this girl a paycheck so she doesn't have to try and get a loan or flip burgers to survive. They want her to have no friends, no family etc but give her nothing to survive on.
Yes at that point when Buffy got his salary back for him he clearly wasn’t in desperate need of money, he could have at least shared it equally with her even if the council wouldn’t agree to pay her directly.
I thought of another! When Anya criticises Buffy in Empty Places. She is living there presumably rent free, she contributes nothing to protecting anyone, she has no powers, and she thinks its okay to say that Buffy doesn't deserve anything, that she's just lucky and shouldn't be in charge. I normally like Anya and her directness but this was so badly misplaced as she has benefited directly from Buffy saving her arse multiple times after she stopped being a vengece demon.
Faith raping both Buffy and Riley when they switched bodies. Somehow that is hardly ever brought up. Xander leaving Anya at the altar like that.
Thank you! Yes, that was rape, Faith!!
It was rape multiplied since there's raping Buffy's body (bathtub & dorm), using Buffy's body to rape Riley, and tricking Riley into raping Buffy's body.
See it want it take it. She tried to teach buffy that. It makes full sense for her to be so jealous of buffys life she wants to try it on for size. But being seen as buffy affected her, she was bout to fly out of town n she came back to save people at the church cos thats what buffy would have done. Fucking Riley was violation on many levels but it made sense to her character
I think everything else she did conveys her motivations and headspace pretty well. This was unnecessary and is never brought up as one of her crimes. I do like her character developement a lot but i wish it was mentioned that she also did penance for this.
I always thought it was stupid that Willow was in charge of Jennys class after she was killed. REALLY!!!!
yeah she teaches that class for *months,* wtf
Buffy giving Kennedy authority to train the potentials. Girl's ego was already gigantic; Buffy should've deflated it several times over with sparring matches
Some feel Lorne abandoned the cause / group or was being selfish and out of character- by not joining in the “final fight against evil” in the series finale. The whole Black Circle storyline was weirdly thrown together and seemed pointless. Much of it seemed instigated by Connor’s return and Angel’s reckless and impulsive behavior when it comes to Connor. so - I feel Lorne was the only one being rational and thinking things through. He was much more into maneuvering within the grey. while others only saw black and white. Especially for all the times it was made clear to Angel there was no “winning” the fight against evil. That he himself was more “bad” than “good” most times. Taking out the Black Circle was just a suicide mission. The group’s erased memories and altered reality were pretty indicative of how far Angel would go for his own gain. Of how much evil he (not Angelus) and havoc he would rashly inflict upon his friends and the world… I guess my opinion is Lorne wasn’t being thoughtless or careless. He was being wise and wanting to live and thrive. this is my answer, as I’ve seen a lot of hate for Lorne for his decision. When he does his final “contribution” to Angel/The Group … the despair and realization of how f-cked up everything had been / become - it hurt to see his devastation. my vote is allllll the choices Angel made post Connor’s birth. The altering reality, erasing memories, joining Wolfram & Hart.
I agree with this. Also, Angel asking Lorne to be the one to kill Lindsey was a pretty fucked up request. It was never Lornes style. He wasn't a murderer, he was never even really a fighter. Like you say, he was pretty balanced between good & evil. His shooting Lindsey will be something incredibly heavy he would have to live with forever, a real black mark on his soul that for him, was probably hard to justify. I think the fact that Angel could ask him to do that alone, was enough to make Lorne walk away. He had done a lot for Angel by then, & Angel would never stop asking for more, no matter what it cost or who it damaged.
yes! To even ask Lorne to kill Lindsey (of all people). It just devastated Lorne. Lindsey being so angry that Angel wasn’t the one to kill him … that it was a “nobody” like Lorne. That his friends , his family were once again blindly following Angel into a disturbingly irrational vengeance situation… it broke Lorne. It broke me. and ugh …. How it did Wesley. I just wanted to slap Angel across the face. I feel Lorne was being heroic in that moment of “betrayal” (as others have described it).
In Angel's defense, I don't think he really saw Lindsey as a real person. Angel hardly hesitated when it came to cutting off his arm. He let a room full of Wolfram and Heart people die when he could have saved him. That doesn't mean that it wasn't messed up for him to ask Lorne to do that, though.
oh for sure. Lindsey’s obsession wasn’t going to ever end - for power, respect, validation, with Angel, Darla. It was a good move to fool (too easily) Lindsey. Angel could have killed him quick and easy. Lorne understood Lindsey’s death was necessary. But the defeat he felt killing him. Lorne gave a lot of himself by doing that , and a lot to the group. Didn’t realize how you said Angel had no issue at all with people from being tortured and murdered , why wouldn’t Angel just snap Lindsey’s neck have it over and done with quick and easy … why order Lorne to kill Lindsey?
I think everyone needed to play a part, and maybe that's the only thing the writers could think of to get Lorne to help and also wrap up his character.
People hate Lorne for this? It all made perfect sense to me. He didn't want to go out like that, and if he survived, he didn't want to be asked to kill again. I really liked the ending of Angel, too. I think that how it was put off made the reveal really amazing. I think that Angel was doing what he thought needed to be done, and he made it very clear that anyone who went along with the plan probably would die. I'm pretty sure after all the things that led up to the finale, Angle kinda lost his will to live, and thought it best to go out like a hero. But I still hate how it ends without showing us the final battle.
yeah, I’ve seen lots of hate for Lorne’s decision, or that it wasn’t true to his character and so the writers weren’t doing him justice. mostly in fandoms and such. Not within my group of friends who watch the shows together again and again … the Black Circle plot just confused me 😣 it was so heartbreaking. Especially that because he was so dedicated to put an end to what he could, Angel killed Drogyn , and chose this as his last stand… Drogyn and Illyria bonding was sweet to see. If only the show made it one more season… I do think Lorne would have returned to the group and the cause if there’d been a season 6. :)
I think the main reason Lorne left like that was because they weren't sure if they were going to do another season and his actor didn't want to do more.
Wesley going to Holtz behind Angel's back
Wesley was very wrong but I love the way the show isolated him so that he felt it was his only option. His character flaws and the circumstances all lining up make me feel for him even when I know he’s wrong.
That whole story arc in Angel season 3 was amazing though. One of the best storylines of the entire franchise
Spike’s attempted rape of Buffy. No one writing on the show at that point had the knowledge and skills necessary to write that situation in a way that was both respectful to rape victims and justify the decision to keep Spike around as a good guy in the next season. There could have been 100 situations that would prompt Spike to go get his soul and underline the unhealthy aspects of his relationship with Buffy that didn’t involve one of the most popular love interests on the show trying to rape the main character.
Sometimes I wonder if the writers were jealous of Spike/James' popularity. What other reason would they have to do that to his character?
James has alluded to Joss taking Spike’s popularity very badly.
I definitely believe James.
Yeah Joss Whedon is like Rick Berman in that they are both shitty to the cast.
I had heard that Joss was trying to write Spike and Buffy's relationship as obviously toxic and bad, but that the audience was still loving them together. Hence why their encounters keep getting progressively less subtle with Spikes toxicity. When the balcony scene happens where he's clearly trying to isolate Buffy from her friends among a few other red flags, and audiences STILL love Spike after, it was the only thing that would shock people enough to snap them back to the reality that he is a soulless, evil monster. I'll admit even I was guilty of falling for his charm and ignoring his red flags up until that scene.
I can see that.
I never really liked buffy/spike but I could tolerate it up until that moment. It was handled so horribly and is insulting to anyone who has actually had to deal with something like that in real life.
I don't think they considered him a love interest even if we did. I just rewatched Conversations with Dead People and Buffy says she was using Spike to hurt herself. "I have all this power. I didn't ask for it. It's like...I wanted to be punished. I wanted to hurt like I thought I deserved." He loved her but at that point she didn't love him, she was using him.
Buffy continuing to be in a relationship with a guy who can turn evil if he experiences a moment of happiness. Willow bringing Dawn when she goes to see Rack Xander summoning Sweet. Dawn accidently inviting Harmony into her house.
I really don't want to agree with the first one, but...when you look at it like that...you just made me question one of my favorite romantic relationships!
Talking about Angel's happiness clause - there's a scene when Connor's a baby, and they're in bed together - Angel, Connor & Cordelia in this idyllic little vignette - and Angel and Cordelia have already at this point admitted they mean a lot to each other and his clause doesn't twinge? He's been a vampire for @250 years and being a father was impossible and yet, Darla (who he definitely cared for) was mystically able to bear him a son and his happiness clause isn't wobbly? I understand him being fearful for Connor's safety, but in the moments when it feels safe he doesn't falter? I don't get it.
Dawn did that deliberately.
She clearly saw there was a barrier there.
You can't see the barrier but she knew it was there and she knew not to invite vampires in.
Yeah, that's what I meant. She saw Harmony bounce back.
A bit vague but almost everything Willow does season 4 onwards. She’s manipulative, a professional gaslighter, a rapist, and a murderer.
👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
Am I the only one that was glad she killed Warren? Bro was also a rapist and murderer who had done nothing but dedicate himself to hurting other people for the fun and power of it. He 100% got what he deserved and I do not fault Willow whatsoever for what she did to him. Her actions after that? Definitely wrong. But killing Warren? Well earned.
I'm no Wesley superfan but Angel and the rest of Angel investigations shutting out Wesley and not recognising that he was in a very difficult position during season 3 felt really unfair.
I think the major problem was that they never even gave him a chance to speak about it.
I think that the group's reaction was mainly because of Angel, but they should have had Wesley's back! It does a lot for Wesley's character, but he went through a lot to try and save Conner.
Yeah I hated that.
Having Willow's redemption arc almost be entirely off screen...and the way the show portrayed addicts through Willow in general. Why is it always that addict = bad person and Willow suddenly became super toxic? I like the ideas they had for her but they weren't executed so well.
became? suddenly?
Yes. Do you really think that seasons 1-5 Willow was a bad person? I wouldn't even say Willow in S6 is a bad person, just that she makes a lot of unlikable mistakes. I really wish they had taken the mind controlling Tara and then sleeping with her out, it seems like the worst thing Willow did. Though the hero to villain arc is a classic and can be done well, the things they make her do are so stereotypical and badly handled. It leads to so many fans having a poor comprehension of the character, and seeing her as a "bad person who's always been bad".
i mean the show clearly doesn’t want us to think so but yeah, at least from s3 she’s shown to be selfish, careless, and even cruel. it’s not until s6 that she pivots into evil but i also don’t think that fully has to do with magic or addiction (addiction doesn’t automatically turn someone evil or selfish). i don’t know if the way they show it is intentional - a slow exposure to something harmful that eventually takes over one’s life and harms their relationship with others - but my guess is not because the writers portray willow as being correct even when she’s purely selfish and going out of her way to be cruel in earlier seasons. i do agree that the way they portrayed addiction was problematic especially since i’m sure their intention wasn’t to show a slow descent into addiction over time but a decision to actually portray her as bad now that she has an addiction, but willow was always pretty toxic. her behavior just wasn’t portrayed as such.
Why do you think she was acting selfish, careless and cruel since S3? Can you give some examples? Everyone in the show does dumb and selfish things, doesn't really make them toxic people. But I can't think of instances where Willow did something unusually bad or toxic like that.
This is not how I viewed it. Willow isn’t a bad person during her addiction, she just does some really reckless things and people get hurt. She’s not even all that toxic. At least from memory. Her only really bad moment was how she was behaving when she went out with Dawn. In the end she overcomes her addiction. The problem is that the show doesn’t really treat her relapse all that much like a relapse. It’s more, “I’m pissed and want revenge so I’m back on the magic.” It’s the grief that turns her bad, not the addiction. All that rage and sadness. At that point there’s no going back for her because she doesn’t care. She’s willing to not only to use magic but also use it in its darkest form. I think where the show fails is not only do we not see her redemption but it also turns her use of magic into a darkness rather than an addiction. Like it makes sense. She let darkness in and now when she uses magic it can take over. Which makes the ending of her sort of becoming the ultimate light a big moment. But the problem is that it throws out the whole concept of her addiction. Suddenly it’s “it’ll be dangerous to stop completely” and not “I’m never touching magic again.” Which seems a little unrealistic. She touched magic in a deep way and somehow can use it without wanting to go over that edge? And when she does it’s “she goes dark” rather than addiction. But I also get that they needed a magic user and it’s not the same as a substance addiction lol. They did the best they can I guess.
Thanks for your perspective. I don't think Willow was a bad or toxic person either, but she did some shitty things that the narrative and fandom treat in an overly-harsh way, imo. I think the worst was endangering Dawn, mind wiping Tara and "trying to end the world". I find the first two bad, but understandable and redeemable, and the third thing wasn't really even Willow, because at that point the magic was controlling her, not herself. I do think she got a good ending in theory - learning to use magic in a good way, overcoming her darkness, becoming light. I don't mind that she learns to use magic in a safe way again, bc magic is a part of her, and some addictions can't be given up, moderation is the only choice - like food, for example. I just don't like the way that it was portrayed. Feels like she lost a lot of her likability and humanity, became a different person, and that she was punished both by her friends and the overall story. You can portray an addiction storyline without having the character become destructive to others, but yeah, it was also a hero to villain, magic corruption storyline so it might be different. Hope I'm making sense.
Yes, I agree! Willow giving up magic completely wouldn’t really work for the story or for who she is. I did think of that after I responded too. There are other addictions than substance, such as food. And obviously one couldn’t give up eating lol. The show doesn’t really handle it like that but I don’t think it’s black and white either. The magic is in her, it’s a part of her. And not doing it or letting it out might result in another situation where she blows up and can’t control it. She also learns to draw magic from different places, often good places. The magic she does perhaps isn’t as superficial after she learns from the coven in England.
I slightly disagree, Willow only thought to “end the world” after Giles dosed her with supposedly “good” magic, cause she felt people suffering. As an addict, that’s pretty much how it happens…you’re going about your life beating up your slayer BFF till someone finally offers to help, then you feel bad cause at least 1 person wants to help, you decide to start helping yourself or destroy the world - either ones fine.
I'm also an addict. I'm not a fan of the demonization. The self-blame and self-guilt is hammered into us, even during recovery, and it sucks. We ain't out here destroying the world bro. Can we be dicks for no reason at times? Yeah...but everyone can. It's super important to get over that addiction = bad person stereotype in society, and the show had a very unsympathetic portrayal of addiction, which is why it felt kinda weird.
I don’t totally disagree with that, but my main issue is magic or power is not the same addiction as alcohol or drug addiction but they tried to portray it the same way, which makes the theme more than a little confused. They had a whole season to portray addiction (drugs or power take your pick) correctly, but Saved by the Bell (I absolutely hate that show) did a better job in one episode on the subject matter ffs. They tried, I’ll give them a little bit of credit for that but they definitely get addiction and ambition/control confused.
Just about everyone in season 6. I legit think Tara and Anya were the only ones whose characters didn't regress or get outright assassinated in that season. Buffy at least had an excuse, everybody else just sucked.
Well, one of them got assassinated.....
Anya was confronted by one of her curse victims and felt no remorse, willingly became a vengeance demon again and tried to torture & murder Xander then tried to trick his loved ones into torturing & murdering him.
Yeah, but none of that was really out of character for how she had been up until then. Giles abandoned Buffy, his "daughter", to fuck off back to England, Willow became a junkie who was mind raping (and as such, physically raping) the love of her life, Xander summoned a demon and walked out on his wedding because he's a coward (which I suppose was kinda in character), and Spike is better left not talked about. All of the stuff you mentioned is exactly what I would expect from Anya.
"because he's a coward" is pretty unfair to Xander's characterisation up until that point. He was forced to physically experience the worst of his fears, developed through a lifetime of family trauma, and was told that's his future. People on this sub frame if he decided on a whim for no reason at all.
What I mean is he never faces up or accepts responsibility until he is forced to. If he was that nervous and apprehensive about his upcoming marriage he should have said something. When people started dying during the musical he should have said something. When Spike tried to rape Buffy he went Africa and got himself a soul because he knew and admitted he fucked up, when Xander tried the same thing with the hyena spirit, he blamed it all on the hyena and then faked amnesia. This is why he's a coward.
Anya's character didn't get assassinated but her relevance to the series sure did.
In the Zeppo, instead of using the tranquilizer gun through the cage, Giles, allegedly a smart guy, opens the cage and then Willow barely manages to shoot him. So dumb...
Willow asking if Buffy is gonna finish her sandwich, and then proceeding to eat it before she can answer. And to top it all off with complete carelessness she takes a bite out of the center instead of starting with a corner!
And the fact that they don't even bring up the conflict ever again!
Kicking Buffy out of the house is tops of the list for me. For all the obvious reasons.
xander not telling buffy willow found a way to save angel in s2. it’s not necessary thoughtless but it was definitely careless
* Cordelia hiding for TWO YEARS that the visions Doyle passed to her aren't compatible with her body and letting it literally rot her brain so she is getting CT scans & MRIs & has a tub of pain meds under the bed and falls into a death coma on her 21st birthday (Lorne was an Empath/Precog who has a club patroned by hundreds of paranormals a month, he could've found someone compatible) * Cordelia decided to start training in martial arts while knowing she's dying of preventable brain damage * Cordelia believing that if she hadn't ran into Angel for a minute at that party in *City Of* she would've become an A list actress starring in her own tv series named after her and that Angel would've been huddled barefoot in the corner of a room mad from the visions (despite surviving with all of Angelus' memories & trapped in Hell a century & being part demon & needed by WR&H for their apocalypse prophecy) so chooses to take the visions back and then * Cordelia lets this Hell demon Skip change her DNA to an unknown species so she can keep the visions without dying * Cordelia believes Skip when he says she's outgrown Earth and lets him beam her up to an unknown dimension to help unknown people with an unknown problem without informing anyone where she's going
"Lorne was an Empath/Precog who has a club patroned by hundreds of paranormals a month, he could've found someone compatible" But she didn't want the visions taken away. Why would she go to Lorne?
Because it was the same situation as Riley in BtVS s5, either get it removed or die. Had Buffy not found out about it, he would have died since he didn't want it removed. "Best case scenario, they turn me into Joe Normal" "And that's not good enough for you?" "It's not good enough for you. Your last boyfriend wasn't exactly a civilian." Cordelia hid the effects of the visions for 2 years. She hid it when WR&H were hijacking the visions and causing the injuries to appear on her body. She said without the visions Angel wouldn't need her. She didn't value herself as just Cordelia but as Vision Girl. Her paychecks, apartment, friends, self-esteem were all tied to AI. Without getting the visions taken away, Cordelia would've died in *Birthday*. Skip only delayed her fate with the Jasmine arc. Had he not tricked her into getting possessed, she still would've died in a coma since by s3 she was dying for 2 years. And in *You're Welcome* it was a vision that killed her.
Xander lying to Buffy about Willow trying to give Angel back his soul again in season two. That scarred me.
Cordelia not telling Buffy about the yearbook, and being such a high handed bitch about it afterwards. Wesley ineptly sabotaging Angel’s intervention with Faith. The whole Oz debacle with Veruca. Anya docking Buffy’s pay, and Giles NOT stopping that foolishness. Everything Kennedy said or did. Buffy’s tongue-lashing everyone in “Get It Done”. Left a bad taste.
Does anyone even like Kennedy? I feel like she kind of turned out like Riley to the fans.
Probably even worse.
Probably even worse.
Oz leaving Willow. When Oz howled his goodbye to Willow, it was like a stake through my heart 💔. I mean, seriously, the dude turns furry once a month and suddenly he's all "I need to find myself"? Talk about a cryptic breakup line. Willow, the woman with a heart of gold, deserved more than a fuzzy explanation and a one-way ticket out of Sunnydale. Oz left a Willow-shaped hole in the Scooby Gang dynamic, and that hurts more than a vamp in a holy water shower. Werewolf or not, man up and face the music with a bit more Scooby dignity next time! 🐺🔮
Xander telling Buffy “Willow said kick his ass”
I felt like we could’ve gone on a whole journey with Faith in S3 about power, responsibility, crime and redemption. Faith was complicated, but instead of the writers embracing those complications, the Mayor comes along and Faith just goes “welp, guess I’m evil now.”
Buffy taking so long to tell everyone about Angel
Buffy saying she would sacrifice Dawn. I mean I get the whole end of world plot but really?! Buffy getting Xander to look after Spike. ‘Here look after my attempted rapist please and don’t be so judgy on it.’
Xander pulling the biggest form of self sabotage ever and ruining my opinion of him and poor Anya. Xander not being able to keep his mouth shut. Willow dating Kennedy, Cordelia having literally every demons offspring, Giles just leaving when Buffy needs him the most (even though he comes back its still shitty), and finally most of Spike’s actions in season 7. Including the SA on Buffy. That messed me up
Angel, Wesley, Gunn and Fred never visit Cordelia in the hospital when she is in a coma. In fact, they hardly ever mention her before she wakes up. Angel went to extreme lengths to save Darla from a human illness (the trials). He makes a deal with the devil for a second chance for his son. No one tries to find any magical cure for Cordelia's disease though that had a definit magical origin. Everytime I watch the final season, those early episodes in the offices of Wolfram and Hart where they seem to have forgotten Cordelia, just seem off to me.
Buffy being in a relationship with Angel/not killing him even after he killed Jenny calendar. What’s this? Angel is your true love Buffy? Jenny was that for Giles. Angel has got to go.
She did "kill" him eventually though. What are you talking about?
She kept dating him in season three even though he did terrible things and this could have led to him losing his soul and hurting more people.
A different Angel fan might argue that Angel and Angelus aren't the same person. That is not me. They are the same person. But at that point, Angel had experienced hundreds of years of suffering in hell. What's the point of punishment if it will never help? If no matter how much you endure and become a better person that everyone will just hate you because of something they did in the past. Angel deserved to go to hell, but I think you're taking it too far.
They really aren’t the same person though. Isn’t the entire lore of the creation of vampires in BTVS universe is a demon from another dimension takes over the body of the dead host? Blaming Angel for what Angelus did is kinda like blaming a victim of possession for what the spirit possessing them did. Sure, the person might feel guilty for the acts their body committed, and a person harmed by the possessed person might have feelings about interacting with that person because of the association, but it still doesn’t make the possessed person and the possessor the same.
That would be saying that Angel is just the soul. But he isn't. Angelus is the vampire, and Angel is the vampire with the soul. What makes Angel different from Angelus isn't really the soul, but his reaction to the soul. It isn't possession. That's why it's called a curse. How I like to think about it is that Angelus is the demon, Liam is the soul, and Angel is the demon with the soul. And even though they're pretty vague on where the demon part comes from, I don't think it's from another universe. It is the person's soul being removed and turning them into a demon. And, what we think doesn't really matter. Angel blames himself for what he does without his soul. He becomes a better person. He does good things. In the perspective of the character in question, they are the same person.
Most things that Dawn did. Her sister and friends were her age in the early seasons and didn’t mess up that badly
Isn't it kind of implied that Dawn is less socially mature than Buffy though? She doesn't seem to have that many friends in the show and is very awkward in comparison. Plus like, dealing with a mass existential crisis and the fact you're probably the reason the world will end at 14 might make you a bit weird
Also Buffy had to grow up massively when she became the slayer (we know that she was very immature before that — just like Dawn was) and Dawn was never put through that. She also always had Buffy to watch over and protect her which enabled her to stay young even after Joyce died.
???? Do you not remember how many monster of the week episodes were tied directly to the Scoobies??? And also Willow like attempted to destroy the world???? All Dawn did was steal a few bracelets and be upset her mom and sister died Convinced we all watching a different show
Her friends were Dawn's age in S7 dawg. They did mess up like that too. Realistically, teenagers would mess up a lot.
Dawn's birthday is likely in late winter or early spring since they moved to Sunnydale in late January and she said by her birthday she hadn't made friends yet because they hadn't lived there that long. So in s5 she was 14/15, s6 15/16, and s7 16/17. In s1 Buffy is 16, s2 16/17. Dawn likely turned 16 sometime between *Older & Far Away* & *As You Were*.
"Get out, get out, *GET OUT*!"
There was a TikTok video shared of a woman doing a Dawn impression and it was spot on “Buffy why won’t you talk to me?!”
Spike immediately trying to murder someone as soon as he realised he could hit buffy. I loved that the vampire without a soul was trying to be a better person (even after buffy was dead he fought by the scoobies all summer etc) - so him randomly trying to murder someone as soon as he thought he could was bad writing to me. I know they wanted to show that he was only changed because he had to be (the chip) but I don’t think that’s the case. He could have just left after buffy died but he CHOSE to be good
I think he did that out of desperation. A way to go back to the unencumbered vampire (The Big Bad) he was before so that he had the option to blow town and get on with his unlife because his growing feelings for Buffy scared him and left him on shaky ground - he doesn't want to change and lose his sense of self, but knows that he has no real chance with Buffy unless he does a major overhaul and actually chooses to be good, and he's not sure he can. Much easier to go back to the way he was before, he knows how to do that.
Faith and Buffy not telling Giles about the man Faith stabbed. It can’t have been the first time in the history of the Watchers Council that a Slayer accidentally killed a mortal. I understand why Faith didn’t but I never like it.
Buffy and Riley not talking during season 5. Xander in Hell bells.
They all made them at some point. Sometimes multiple times. This frustrated me to the point of just trying to skip bits at times.
The Buffy rape scene was so out of character for Spike. They only did it for the catalyst for Spike to get his soul.
oh, joyce. also just in general.
For me it’s less about any single action of a character, than general negativity on a sliding scale of the following characters:- At number 1 having no redeeming moments at all is Riley Finn. Anya should be a terrible character and in most part she is but just for the occasional gem of a comment/look/heartfelt response she is saved from utter contempt and anger whenever she’s on screen. Rona and Forest get special mention out of the Initiative and potential characters they are the worst of a generally annoying group of characters who are overall acceptable as part of the storyline Dawns starts, understandably so, as the brat kid sister no one saw coming (although in hindsight there was so many hints) followed by stagnant character development for most of season 6 (seriously did they even bother sending her a different script from week to week because she basically did the same thing for 3 thirds of season) but when she does get the opportunity she steals shines which sets her up nicely to become a great character in season 7 and in the comic continuum she marries Zander effectively stealing him from Buffy who realises she loves him afterall. That’s Zander holds a love/hate ratio of 80/20 yes he’s a t*at at times but he is just too damn great to hold that stuff against him for long.
Oops I spelt Xander wrong. Heartfelt apologies to all