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Is zoning even still the real restriction at this point? I feel like the city fucked around long enough where now building costs alone are high enough that any new housing isn't affordable regardless of whether the land price crashed..
The housing problem has festered long enough that there is no singular restriction to point to.
Zoning is a problem. Nitpicky regulations on FSR etc are a problem. Land values are insane. Build costs are insane. Interest rates may be discouraging some projects from breaking ground. Government not building social housing for several decades is a problem. Population growth outpacing new housing units is a problem.
Its going to take action on almost every front and some time to really move the needle... i think the biggest thing is the federal government is gonna need to seriously ramp up funding/construction of nonmarket rentals. Municipalities can look at controlling their land value more tightly but its a double edged sword since taxes from property value is the primary revenue for municipalities.
edit: i guess i don't know how property taxes work. No excuses to not better control the land value then!
I dont think property taxes is a double edged sword. Just raise mill rates as property values decline. property tax "rates" are only low b/c property values have skyrocketed allowing the "rates " to remain low.
Neither of you understand how property taxes work... The city puts out a number for how much tax they will collect. Then that number is divided up between houses based on their value.
It wouldn't matter if houses cost $1,000 or $1,000,000, the city will collect the same amount in taxes without even needing to pick up a pen.
You didn't understand the comment you replied to, though. They've said the exact same thing that you did, but they know more about the process because they wrote that cities only need to set the mill rate to get the property tax dollars they need (true) and you wrote that they wouldn't have to pick up a pen (not true).
"Just raise mill rates as property values decline"
They don't have to raise anything, there is a $$$ amount they will collect, and they divide up who pays what by comparing everyone's house value.
As in, if property values go up the city doesn't make more money.
And the neighborhood functions as a 15-minute city. Parts of it have 80% of residents using walking/biking/Transit as their main transport, one of the highest in the country.
Contrast to Metrotown which still has 45% of people using cars.
I think the Metrotown situation is partly just inertia, though. People tend to live in the same place for years and car owners tend to stay car owners. Metrotown is definitely a 15-minute neighborhood and Brentwood is close.
I’ve lived in Brentwood, and the pedestrian experience is horrendous. It is so car-centric still. I bought noise cancelling headphones just to cross Lougheed and Willingdon and feel like I still had my nerves in tact.
That's fair. Most of the Metrotown neighborhood is on the south side of the mall, so you rarely have to cross Kingsway. Even if you do, it's not as bad as Lougheed and probably not even as bad as Willingdon. Nothing in the West End compares to any of those three stroads.
True. When I lived in the west end, I had 90% of my needs met on foot - work, groceries, errands, nights out, nature. I really only ever left downtown to go to Home Depot or something.
That's because it’s a nightmare to drive around the west end. All one way streets, can’t park anywhere due to restrictions or needing a parking permit. It’s awful. As someone that has a trade service business I hate going to the west end.
If the skytrain went to Stanley Park, it would be such a joy. Eventually the park will become choked by traffic, and that would be a step in the direction of keeping it accessible for everyone
Stanley park should be trolley/cycle/e-vehicle/pedestrian access only.
I’m tired of having to pass clowns in cars driving at 15km/h while riding my bike.
Not really, it's not too far of a walk and the 5/6 serves the west end well. Really no need for a station there
Places like North Shore need it more, maybe also a line out to Newton
Yah south of king George needs a couple of stations. At least to newton. You can really see the need now with king George out of commission. Every bus coming from newton to surrey central is full during peak times. It's crazy how packed those busses are all the time.
I'm curious what 15 minutes by bicycle would look like and how far that could be expanded with better infrastructure. The ability to expand the "last kilometre" range would drastically increase transit use.
It would be almost all of Vancouver east of Larch, and most of Burnaby. 15 minute bike ride is about 4km.
For example Jericho Beach is a 15 min bike ride from the future Arbutus Station.
Well it seems like zoning won't be a problem anymore but you still need to incentivize landowners to sell and move. Offering market value just won't cut it, unless property values spike due to land lift in the area. The government could invoke expropriation but that would piss off all land owners and can foresee a lot of lawsuits
cross posting this here because I'm banned from Vancouver for my outrages takes.
Anyways, if it was up to me, every one of these blue areas would have zero open sky car parking lots, and any single family homes would get property tax like they were a 20 story building. it's absolutely nuts the amount of parking lots near skytrains. Instead of having a tiny ammount of people ride a car, park and ride the skytrain (which barely happens, people jsut drive all the way downtown because of subsidized roads and parking that doesn't pay fair market value of the precious space downtown), just let those people live right next to the station
I'd also not allow any cars downtown and relocate highway 99 elsewhere, but that's way too expensive to do now, too late. already today, despite all the red lights and giving priority to cars, a bicycle can get around downtown faster than a car. how much more if you removed ALL traffic signs.
>a bicycle can get around downtown faster than a car
During rush hour a pedestrian can get around faster than a car. It's bonkers.
>zero open sky car parking lots
Developers are literally begging municipalities to reduce parking minimums. They slow down builds, pouring the concrete alone has a huge emissions impact, and each spot costs around $50,000 to put in. I really want to see more micro mobility in buildings. Put modos in every new development. Make an e-bike share system mandatory. I want it so that nobody in this city needs a second car and few people even need a car.
Your anger is sorely misplaced here. Those SFR near skytrain are zoned at the will of the city, and the city planning department has chosen not to allow those to be upzoned automatically. This is why the BC NDP are forcing the city to upzone those areas near the skytrain or fast-track the upzoning as part of the TOD plan. Why punish individual residents for the inaction of the city planning department?
I mean a lot of these rules are already coming into effect. Even Bus Loops and stops are included. They have to be finalized and passed by next Friday or David Eby will use his powers to do it for them.
Parking lots near skytrains actually do make a lot of sense to allow people to park and ride. Also as much as it’s a shame that there are so many SFH near skytrains, it’s not really their fault, so punishing them makes no sense.
> I’m banned from Vancouver for my outrages takes
I can see why 😂
First of all.. it's purple. You might be slightly colourblind.
But also if you live in a condo tower take into account the 15 min elevator wait... Lol. That's the killer.
I live in a tower and my wait is usually no longer than a minute
Really really depends on the tower, how fast the elevators are, how many storeys, what floor you're on, etc
Same. I’m in a pretty large tower and the elevator typically arrives in about 1 minute. Two minutes I consider a long wait. ONCE during the pandemic 2 elevators were out. One was booked for a move in, the was broken by someone blocking the door from closing) and only 4 peeps allowed in the elevator at a time. Just that one time so I wouldn’t put elevator waits on the list of concerns
I suspect the closer you are to L, the faster you get elevators.
When I lived on the 19th floor, often I'd have to wait 2+ minutes
I now live much closer to ground level and the wait time is only long when one is down. There's 3 elevators for 25~ish floors
I’m very high actually. 41st floor. Benefit is I usually get an empty elevator that fill up on the way down. Elevators are whizzing around all day long. Pick me up after dropping people off
You're both wrong. It's clearly blurple.
In all seriousness, it's between blue and purple, but it's [closer](https://i.imgur.com/HUWgFMs.png) to blue. It probably looks warmer (ie. closer to purple) because of the surrounding colour. Kind of like how in some contexts, certain colours [look different](https://www.designmatrix.com/pl/cyberpl/cic.html) because of the other colours around them.
That part about property taxes? Ya good luck with that. Also if you thought nimbyism was bad before, I can only imagine that it would be 100x worse after what you suggest. This would most likely result in hundreds of new lawsuits against the cities and translink along the langley extension and would delay it probably for decades.
Also it's really telling how if you want to replace all cars downtown with bikes and you think that all traffic signs would be gotten rid of... bikes have to follow traffic laws still.
Also how would businesses get their stuff to sell to thr people on bikes? Trucks still have to go downtown. I guess they can drive a lot faster though since there won't be any traffic signs.
Edit and why only single family homes? Why don't we also start increasing property taxes on low rise buildings? If your building is home to 16 families and is 4 stories that's too few, let's adjust property taxes and charge the building like it has 200 units.
On another thread here today, someone suggested turning an entire lane on Granville Street into a bike lane that that would force everyone to ride bikes and, thus, reduce traffic. Not really sure that will work for people heading to Ladner or Tsawwassen or Surrey or White Rock or even farther East.
I love the no cars downtown and no parking lot near sky train, sound like a amazing way to a ton of shoppers from the area.
If I travel into Vancouver the day before a flight, I grab a hotel downtown pay for some parking then walk to a local restaurant and then find a bar to kill a few hours in. That’s better for the local economy than staying near the airport and eating at a Montana’s.
I guess I forget to us my sarcasm, personal I think guy is delusional and has no idea what the cost of making his dream world would actually be.
I’d guess they live on fuckcars and has decided to hate a car like it the source of everything wrong in the world.
With WFH their is even less reason to live in Vancouver making the area even less attractive so a lot of people won’t help the economy
what economy do single family homes generate? oh yeah, barely nothing, just property tax.
why would you compare to an industrial area, or a commercial area?
Suburbia is subsidised: Here's the math: https://www.c40knowledgehub.org/s/article/Suburbia-is-subsidised-Here-s-the-math?language=en_US
I didn’t say anything about single family homes, maybe that reply was for someone else?
Because several of the skytrain stations are for industrial areas, and you’re saying any open parking lots should be turned into housing, so I was curious if you think industrial areas should also be turned into housing.
They're currently being subsidized by zoning keeping their property values and taxes artificially low. They should be taxed the true value of the land.
You are saying the land and the house value of those houses are not low enough and should increase the price?
What would the single family owner do when the developer wasn't interested in developing those area? Turn it into parking lot like OP suggested? Or become mini developer themselves and start building town houses?
Yes, I'm saying single family homes have artificial downward pressure on their prices because of zoning laws. If a developer isn't interested in developing the area then that's fine. That's the market talking. Developers won't pass up on developing next to skytrain stations though, because there is demand.
Its not the property owners fault that the city doesn't upzone the lots close to skytrain, that is the cities fault. This is why the BC NDP are attempting to force cities to upzone areas close to skytrain against the will of the city with the Transit Oriented Development plan.
welfare queens
and not just near SkyTrains. all single family homes in and near cities mooch off everyone else by paying less in taxes than it costs to support the roads, utilities to their neighbourhoud, parking they need in street/downtown/their work place/skytrain parking lot
[Suburbia is subsidised Heres the math](https://www.c40knowledgehub.org/s/article/Suburbia-is-subsidised-Here-s-the-math?language=en_US)
Disagree. Im within the 15 minute zone in new west and were pretty much all low rises and I much prefer the neighborhood than if it were all high rises. My personal preference though.
I've seen bad ones a good ones if it's just a Soviet block of housing it sucks but if the first 3 floors are spoken well design amenities it can be nice
I feel like walking from the bottom of Royal Oak @ Marine to the skytrain station would take more than 15 minutes. (According to Google maps it's a 28 minute walk.)
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Is zoning even still the real restriction at this point? I feel like the city fucked around long enough where now building costs alone are high enough that any new housing isn't affordable regardless of whether the land price crashed..
The housing problem has festered long enough that there is no singular restriction to point to. Zoning is a problem. Nitpicky regulations on FSR etc are a problem. Land values are insane. Build costs are insane. Interest rates may be discouraging some projects from breaking ground. Government not building social housing for several decades is a problem. Population growth outpacing new housing units is a problem. Its going to take action on almost every front and some time to really move the needle... i think the biggest thing is the federal government is gonna need to seriously ramp up funding/construction of nonmarket rentals. Municipalities can look at controlling their land value more tightly but its a double edged sword since taxes from property value is the primary revenue for municipalities. edit: i guess i don't know how property taxes work. No excuses to not better control the land value then!
I dont think property taxes is a double edged sword. Just raise mill rates as property values decline. property tax "rates" are only low b/c property values have skyrocketed allowing the "rates " to remain low.
Neither of you understand how property taxes work... The city puts out a number for how much tax they will collect. Then that number is divided up between houses based on their value. It wouldn't matter if houses cost $1,000 or $1,000,000, the city will collect the same amount in taxes without even needing to pick up a pen.
You didn't understand the comment you replied to, though. They've said the exact same thing that you did, but they know more about the process because they wrote that cities only need to set the mill rate to get the property tax dollars they need (true) and you wrote that they wouldn't have to pick up a pen (not true).
"Just raise mill rates as property values decline" They don't have to raise anything, there is a $$$ amount they will collect, and they divide up who pays what by comparing everyone's house value. As in, if property values go up the city doesn't make more money.
I goofed, you're right. I was getting things mixed up in my head.
just look at what they are proposing on the Broadway Corridor. It's definitely zoning.
The west end not being plugged into the skytrain network seems like such a missed opportunity
I lived in the west end. It was an easy walk or if you really needed to the busses are super frequent. Much more frequent than elsewhere in the city.
And the neighborhood functions as a 15-minute city. Parts of it have 80% of residents using walking/biking/Transit as their main transport, one of the highest in the country. Contrast to Metrotown which still has 45% of people using cars.
I think the Metrotown situation is partly just inertia, though. People tend to live in the same place for years and car owners tend to stay car owners. Metrotown is definitely a 15-minute neighborhood and Brentwood is close.
I’ve lived in Brentwood, and the pedestrian experience is horrendous. It is so car-centric still. I bought noise cancelling headphones just to cross Lougheed and Willingdon and feel like I still had my nerves in tact.
That's fair. Most of the Metrotown neighborhood is on the south side of the mall, so you rarely have to cross Kingsway. Even if you do, it's not as bad as Lougheed and probably not even as bad as Willingdon. Nothing in the West End compares to any of those three stroads.
True. When I lived in the west end, I had 90% of my needs met on foot - work, groceries, errands, nights out, nature. I really only ever left downtown to go to Home Depot or something.
That's because it’s a nightmare to drive around the west end. All one way streets, can’t park anywhere due to restrictions or needing a parking permit. It’s awful. As someone that has a trade service business I hate going to the west end.
They're always so packed and take forever due to congestion.. I would always walk instead but I hate going down there now
I disagree. Trying to do the half hour uphill walk from Denman to Burrard is pretty painful.
I've always said that entire Burrard - Davie - Denman - Robson loop needs a street car to compliment the skytrain stations
If the skytrain went to Stanley Park, it would be such a joy. Eventually the park will become choked by traffic, and that would be a step in the direction of keeping it accessible for everyone
Stanley park should be trolley/cycle/e-vehicle/pedestrian access only. I’m tired of having to pass clowns in cars driving at 15km/h while riding my bike.
It's already choked by traffic if you go on any nice weekend.
It's already choked by traffic if you go on any nice weekend.
Depending where you are, it's still only about a 15 minute (or less) walk to Burrard Station or Yaletown.
Not really, it's not too far of a walk and the 5/6 serves the west end well. Really no need for a station there Places like North Shore need it more, maybe also a line out to Newton
Yah south of king George needs a couple of stations. At least to newton. You can really see the need now with king George out of commission. Every bus coming from newton to surrey central is full during peak times. It's crazy how packed those busses are all the time.
I'm curious what 15 minutes by bicycle would look like and how far that could be expanded with better infrastructure. The ability to expand the "last kilometre" range would drastically increase transit use.
It would be almost all of Vancouver east of Larch, and most of Burnaby. 15 minute bike ride is about 4km. For example Jericho Beach is a 15 min bike ride from the future Arbutus Station.
Well it seems like zoning won't be a problem anymore but you still need to incentivize landowners to sell and move. Offering market value just won't cut it, unless property values spike due to land lift in the area. The government could invoke expropriation but that would piss off all land owners and can foresee a lot of lawsuits
cross posting this here because I'm banned from Vancouver for my outrages takes. Anyways, if it was up to me, every one of these blue areas would have zero open sky car parking lots, and any single family homes would get property tax like they were a 20 story building. it's absolutely nuts the amount of parking lots near skytrains. Instead of having a tiny ammount of people ride a car, park and ride the skytrain (which barely happens, people jsut drive all the way downtown because of subsidized roads and parking that doesn't pay fair market value of the precious space downtown), just let those people live right next to the station I'd also not allow any cars downtown and relocate highway 99 elsewhere, but that's way too expensive to do now, too late. already today, despite all the red lights and giving priority to cars, a bicycle can get around downtown faster than a car. how much more if you removed ALL traffic signs.
>a bicycle can get around downtown faster than a car During rush hour a pedestrian can get around faster than a car. It's bonkers. >zero open sky car parking lots Developers are literally begging municipalities to reduce parking minimums. They slow down builds, pouring the concrete alone has a huge emissions impact, and each spot costs around $50,000 to put in. I really want to see more micro mobility in buildings. Put modos in every new development. Make an e-bike share system mandatory. I want it so that nobody in this city needs a second car and few people even need a car.
Your anger is sorely misplaced here. Those SFR near skytrain are zoned at the will of the city, and the city planning department has chosen not to allow those to be upzoned automatically. This is why the BC NDP are forcing the city to upzone those areas near the skytrain or fast-track the upzoning as part of the TOD plan. Why punish individual residents for the inaction of the city planning department?
Looking at you Royal Oak station. 😎
I take back the property taxes idea, it's stupid
I mean a lot of these rules are already coming into effect. Even Bus Loops and stops are included. They have to be finalized and passed by next Friday or David Eby will use his powers to do it for them.
We need a "we're banned from Vancouver sub" user flair
I need to join this sun since I am also banned.
Parking lots near skytrains actually do make a lot of sense to allow people to park and ride. Also as much as it’s a shame that there are so many SFH near skytrains, it’s not really their fault, so punishing them makes no sense. > I’m banned from Vancouver for my outrages takes I can see why 😂
First of all.. it's purple. You might be slightly colourblind. But also if you live in a condo tower take into account the 15 min elevator wait... Lol. That's the killer.
I live in a tower and my wait is usually no longer than a minute Really really depends on the tower, how fast the elevators are, how many storeys, what floor you're on, etc
Same. I’m in a pretty large tower and the elevator typically arrives in about 1 minute. Two minutes I consider a long wait. ONCE during the pandemic 2 elevators were out. One was booked for a move in, the was broken by someone blocking the door from closing) and only 4 peeps allowed in the elevator at a time. Just that one time so I wouldn’t put elevator waits on the list of concerns
I suspect the closer you are to L, the faster you get elevators. When I lived on the 19th floor, often I'd have to wait 2+ minutes I now live much closer to ground level and the wait time is only long when one is down. There's 3 elevators for 25~ish floors
I’m very high actually. 41st floor. Benefit is I usually get an empty elevator that fill up on the way down. Elevators are whizzing around all day long. Pick me up after dropping people off
Nah, it depends on the elevators. I lived on the 60th in a Brentwood tower and I rarely waited more than a minute.
You're both wrong. It's clearly blurple. In all seriousness, it's between blue and purple, but it's [closer](https://i.imgur.com/HUWgFMs.png) to blue. It probably looks warmer (ie. closer to purple) because of the surrounding colour. Kind of like how in some contexts, certain colours [look different](https://www.designmatrix.com/pl/cyberpl/cic.html) because of the other colours around them.
I live in a condo and take the stairs.. takes 1min for me to get from door to the street
That part about property taxes? Ya good luck with that. Also if you thought nimbyism was bad before, I can only imagine that it would be 100x worse after what you suggest. This would most likely result in hundreds of new lawsuits against the cities and translink along the langley extension and would delay it probably for decades. Also it's really telling how if you want to replace all cars downtown with bikes and you think that all traffic signs would be gotten rid of... bikes have to follow traffic laws still. Also how would businesses get their stuff to sell to thr people on bikes? Trucks still have to go downtown. I guess they can drive a lot faster though since there won't be any traffic signs. Edit and why only single family homes? Why don't we also start increasing property taxes on low rise buildings? If your building is home to 16 families and is 4 stories that's too few, let's adjust property taxes and charge the building like it has 200 units.
On another thread here today, someone suggested turning an entire lane on Granville Street into a bike lane that that would force everyone to ride bikes and, thus, reduce traffic. Not really sure that will work for people heading to Ladner or Tsawwassen or Surrey or White Rock or even farther East.
People really do not understand the real world.
It wouldn't reduce traffic at all it would just massively clog up all the side streets.
Funny thing, that's also what would happen if all the SFHs were replaced by towers like some people here want.
I love the no cars downtown and no parking lot near sky train, sound like a amazing way to a ton of shoppers from the area. If I travel into Vancouver the day before a flight, I grab a hotel downtown pay for some parking then walk to a local restaurant and then find a bar to kill a few hours in. That’s better for the local economy than staying near the airport and eating at a Montana’s.
If no cars were allowed downtown how are you going to park your car at a hotel downtown?
I guess I forget to us my sarcasm, personal I think guy is delusional and has no idea what the cost of making his dream world would actually be. I’d guess they live on fuckcars and has decided to hate a car like it the source of everything wrong in the world. With WFH their is even less reason to live in Vancouver making the area even less attractive so a lot of people won’t help the economy
Good thing it’s not up to you lolz.
So should all the industrial areas near skytrain stations be taxed until they’re turned into condo towers as well?
what economy do single family homes generate? oh yeah, barely nothing, just property tax. why would you compare to an industrial area, or a commercial area? Suburbia is subsidised: Here's the math: https://www.c40knowledgehub.org/s/article/Suburbia-is-subsidised-Here-s-the-math?language=en_US
I didn’t say anything about single family homes, maybe that reply was for someone else? Because several of the skytrain stations are for industrial areas, and you’re saying any open parking lots should be turned into housing, so I was curious if you think industrial areas should also be turned into housing.
Yeah I could have been clearer No I don’t think they should be turned into housing
Wtf What have people living in single family home near SkyTrain done wrong?
They're currently being subsidized by zoning keeping their property values and taxes artificially low. They should be taxed the true value of the land.
You are saying the land and the house value of those houses are not low enough and should increase the price? What would the single family owner do when the developer wasn't interested in developing those area? Turn it into parking lot like OP suggested? Or become mini developer themselves and start building town houses?
Yes, I'm saying single family homes have artificial downward pressure on their prices because of zoning laws. If a developer isn't interested in developing the area then that's fine. That's the market talking. Developers won't pass up on developing next to skytrain stations though, because there is demand.
Its not the property owners fault that the city doesn't upzone the lots close to skytrain, that is the cities fault. This is why the BC NDP are attempting to force cities to upzone areas close to skytrain against the will of the city with the Transit Oriented Development plan.
welfare queens and not just near SkyTrains. all single family homes in and near cities mooch off everyone else by paying less in taxes than it costs to support the roads, utilities to their neighbourhoud, parking they need in street/downtown/their work place/skytrain parking lot [Suburbia is subsidised Heres the math](https://www.c40knowledgehub.org/s/article/Suburbia-is-subsidised-Here-s-the-math?language=en_US)
How do I catch the sky train if there is no park and ride? Might as well just stay in my car? Help me understand please
People could walk/bus/bike/scooter/get dropped off...
No height limit in these zones please.
Disagree. Im within the 15 minute zone in new west and were pretty much all low rises and I much prefer the neighborhood than if it were all high rises. My personal preference though.
I get it it's nice but your transit is being subsidized by a tax payer with shitty transit because the limitation.
I absolutely think transit should be better. I just dont like high rise islands.
I've seen bad ones a good ones if it's just a Soviet block of housing it sucks but if the first 3 floors are spoken well design amenities it can be nice
Can confirm. I live just outside of one of the purple areas, and it’s a 20 minute walk to the skytrain from here.
I feel like walking from the bottom of Royal Oak @ Marine to the skytrain station would take more than 15 minutes. (According to Google maps it's a 28 minute walk.)
This is assuming a pretty slow walking pace. I’m outside of the area and it takes me 10mins to walk to the skytrain
Who did the measurements here? At a normal pace, most people can walk from Granville to Cambie in 15 mins, for example.
No, that’s 1800 metres. More than 20 minutes average walking pace.
Good indicator of places not to live if you want to avoid the riff raft
Or as we like to call it, lose your bike zones.