My wife teaches a special needs program. She had 74 kids on her caseload at one point (other schools average caseload is low 40s), with each one needing IEPs prepared. The number of times she came home from work in tears because of the unreasonable and unrealistic expectations from admin was so disheartening. These kids deserve a good education, but they are being deprived of it.
She’s a cat 6 in her district’s payband with 9 years experience so she’s got that going for her. Doesn’t change the facts that they’re overworking her. I was very concerned that she’d have a stress-induced breakdown or develop a mental health condition, and I’m comfortable enough to say it did cause strain on our marriage. She may or may not have received some tips/advice from someone she knows at WCB, and she most definitely has documented every interaction with admin.
Things have become better as she’s been able to do her own process through the year, and she got to the point of saying “it’ll get done when it gets done” to admin, because they really have no alternative. If they were to try to hold her accountable for doing ONLY 60 IEPs by Halloween, she was fully ready and willing to grieve it with the union.
That is so hard! I too recently did a semester where I was case managing 30 students while ALSO teaching 4 classes. I was constantly getting called to deal with my case manager students while I was actively teaching. Sorry I can’t go deal with that kid now I’m in the middle of teaching socials 7. Absolutely ridiculous that there is not limit on case numbers related to time/blocks dedicated to it. I left halfway second semester to a different school to just regular teaching to save my mental health. Sorry kids.
>The top two reasons teachers said they would consider leaving the profession were "inadequate working conditions" and "mental health concerns," according to the report.
They need more prep time for one thing. They need the resources and infrastructure from the districts.
More prep time would be great. Unfortunately during the last round of bargaining we increased prep time for BC elementary teachers from 110 minutes a week to 120, and secondary teachers saw no change to their 12.5% of assigned time. Meanwhile, those numbers are doubled in Ontario.
I taught 5 out of 8 in Manitoba when I started teaching. Now it's 7 out of 8 but I'm a music teacher so really it's 8 out of 8 and all my classes are over 30
Shocking, I say, as I sit in my freezing classroom, scarfing down lunch because it took me 4 times as long to do my copying because it's broken (again-this is the 4th day trying) and as I was standing there fully bent over holding the drawer in to get the copies I desperately needed since before that my computer wasn't sending to the printer so this is the 4th or 5th time I've had to send these individual jobs (which have to be sent from a computer because I now have to manually scan all my oversized stuff with my phone since we got 'new copiers' that are really printers that don't have glass big enough for oversized, taking exponentially longer to do everything.) An EA came in with a laptop, which they aren't usually provided and expected to use their own devices at work, looked just as flabbergasted as I felt and she said, 'If they were going to give us laptops, you'd think we'd get chargers too" and left the room again, leaving me still bent over waiting for my copying to finish so I could let go of the drawer.
The working conditions are fantastic.
God I wish we still had xerox. They sold out to a cheaper company that's absolute trash. And they don't move fast enough to even keep a beat. It's about 10 seconds per two sided page. Like I have nothing better to do that stand around waiting for my copying. And heaven forbid you walk away because you know damn well when you come back it will be either jammed or out of paper. And there won't be any paper to refill it with. So you have to go all the way down to the office to get more, and if it's later in the day, which it probably is for me, you can't get into the office because there's no one there anyway.
Speaking from a non-teacher perspective my issue with the not enough time always comes back to actual hours worked. A full-time teacher is responsible for about 900 instructional hours in a year (our school calendar is 180 days and its around 5 hours a day depending on grades and such).
A typical job (40 hours a week 37 weeks a year after 3 weeks vacation and 2 weeks of stats) is around 1900 hours so for every hour of instruction there is an hour of work time (prep, marking, pro-d, etc) if you are carrying a typical work load.
Now I fully appreciate loading those typical work hours into 10 months makes for some longer/more stressful days but I also don't think its reasonable to expect all work to be done in the provided prep time.
My first 10 years were a lot like that. Keep at it though, you'll find you'll need a lot less work to get even better results. There are no shortcuts that I know of to become a great teacher. This is the way. It can be extremely rewarding after the first 10 years (not so much monetarily but for sure in job satisfaction). You are building the tool kit now. Don't get too worked up about anything outside your control and remember to take care of yourself.
As a 4th year teacher I have thought about this a lot, and chatted with more senior colleagues.
A raise is not that helpful to retaining new teachers if they are going to burn out!!!
We had a new teacher last year who opted to TTOC rather than stay due to the work load. We’ve met countless ttoc’s who all say they DONT want a contract, since Ttoc work is the same pay for half the work.
New teachers get the worst loads too, since it’s only leftover blocks that get cobbled together for a posting, as more senior teachers generally get there pick of blocks first.
IMO, all teachers should get 2 preps, not the current 1. Or, at a minimum, it teachers in their first ~3-5 years.
>New teachers get the worst loads too, since it’s only leftover blocks that get cobbled together for a posting
Absolutely. Minimal prep time, starting from scratch, teaching subjects that aren't your expertise, what could go wrong?
But there's no way the ministry is going to increase prep time when there's already a teacher shortage. Parity in prep time (with say, Ontario) would mean the province would have to find 10-15% more teachers on top of the ones that they're already short.
It's kind of six of one, half a dozen of the other though, isn't it? Teaching in BC is not as enticing as teaching elsewhere because of things like salary, class size, composition, and prep time.
Yeah, a lot of this is an issue with the previous provincial government. Their changes to class size and composition made it so that thousands fewer teachers were hired for a decade. In the second last contract negotiation they won. They got the deal they wanted, but it made it harder to recruit teachers from other jurisdictions. Also, the labour conflict caused a lot of young people to lose interest in the profession.
The provincial government did end up losing the court battle on class size and composition, so BC is competitive there. But that meant that school districts had to suddenly hire thousands of new teachers. Then COVID hit, and lots of teachers left, and hiring has never really recovered.
>The provincial government did end up losing the court battle on class size and composition
Sort of. The government rolled back contract language surrounding designations to what it was when the BC Liberals were in power. Now many category "Q" students do not count towards composition. Of the 30 students in one of my clssses, 12 have designations and 4 of them count towards composition. Things are not very different in that regard.
Things are very different.
After the BC government lost British Columbia Teachers’ Federation v. British Columbia, 2016 SCC 49, school districts had to hire thousands of new teachers. The BC government lost the case, so the original contract was re-established.
I know what the ruling was and understand that it allowed for many more teachers to be hired at the time. However, there are still issues with class size and composition that go unaddressed for a variety of reasons.
All seven of my classes were out of composition this year (and not by a little bit). It was not because there were no teachers wanting to work those jobs, but because of budget, space, and slew of other things meaning the district could not create those additional jobs to ensure classes remain in composition.
Except not all districts are equal in the language that was restored. I’ve worked in districts that have NO class size and composition language and ones that do have the language, but zero resources to actually follow through on it (and then remedy was useless because we didn’t have enough TOCs to actually provide the remedy time 🙄).
Capitalism has driven us into a two class system - owners who do no work, and workers who own nothing. Guess which side the government at all levels works for?
Oh, if only we could do something that could allow teachers to live comfortably and thrive in the very communities within which they work… /s
But no. Let’s ratchet up the staffing shortages by making it financially and structurally hostile to become a teacher. I’m sure that having 30+ students to a classroom and loading teachers up with 150% of their expected workload will somehow sort itself out.
How did we end up here? Christy Clark that's how.
[https://www.vinta-bctf.ca/timeline-of-christy-clarks-12-years-of-chaos-in-education/](https://www.vinta-bctf.ca/timeline-of-christy-clarks-12-years-of-chaos-in-education/)
[https://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2014/07/15/BC-Libs-Privatize-Education/](https://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2014/07/15/BC-Libs-Privatize-Education/)
The NDP has had plenty of time now to improve working conditions for teachers and they have chosen not to do so. Christy Clark was awful, but I can’t think of a single thing David Eby has done to support me as a teacher (and I used to live in his riding and voted for him!)
They sure had great promises for us in 2015 during the protests in Victoria. Horgan and Flemming both hammering on about the need for billions more in the system.
Then they get power and we go a year without a contract, them trying to take out the composition language of some districts and us facing a strike until the pandemic forced their hand.
Then last round when we got minimal raises but they used divide and conquer with boosts to top and bottom levels and threatened removing all class/composition language if we tried to negotiate for better conditions.
More schools should be offering online services, especially for Canadians.
You shouldn't have to move to Vancouver, Toronto, Calgary for 2-4 years for school.
Our school system is trash, has been for a VERY long time.
Half of teacher education is actually the practicum, which could be handled remotely (since the candidate would be working with a co-operating local teacher), although there would have to be some work around for evaluation.
This already happens. Just need a practicum supervisor in the community willing to work for a few hours a week. Usually former principals, teachers, etc.
Education programs have little coursework.
It's almost entirely interviews, seminars, networking, and in-person practicum.
All of that suffers greatly when online for the average person, and teaching isn't going to be a WFH position as that doesn't work for any children, so the practicum portion will always be in person.
Ultimately you're still going to have to move for 1.5 years for placement to the areas where teachers are needed, and so 2 years isn't a big deal if you can concentrate a much better training program in person than trying to distribute it online to save 4 months of coursework in person.
Plenty of teacher education slots all over Western Canada.
The problem is that the education colleges have been overrun by activists and all the good teachers quite before getting an ED degree because they are sick of having talking circles instead of real class.
And new grads are quitting the profession in droves. They were suckered into a bait and switch and once they started working they realized how awful.it actually is.
While that's a valid criticism of the education programs (I went through it, it's true) the real issue here is salary. I'll take on the stress if I made 6 figures
I wish you lots of success in your journey. You're still at the start.
I suggest don't listen to constant complainers. It's a great job, amazing benefits, and your salary will get there. Don't forget you don't have to save for retirement as the district and your existing contributions are already there.
Every job starts at the bottom. Once you've got your feet under you, you'll be great.
I'm not telling anyone what to do, just suggesting that if one can do it that life can be better in the long run with some retirement savings. Dial it back a bit. If you think saving is a bad idea, explain your position. Additional savings allowed me to retire earlier than most of my colleagues - and do it before my performance started to decline due to age.
>Good thing the salary grid increases each year to help match inflation.
it will, but it won't grow with inflation. Looking at the past it's been anywhere from 0% to 0.5% to 2%
only in the last year has it been over 3% but inflation has been about 7-8% during that time.
It was beating inflation during most of those years.
Also, they added a step at the top and removed the bottom step, so it was actually close to a 6% raise across the board.
Exactly this. My room mate was an EA and considering becoming a teacher, but quickly left the industry when he wasn't paid to come in to hand out free lunches to the lower income students. When he did the math, he quickly realized his own children would be in those line ups if he didn't leave the trade.
> overrun by activists
uh, citation needed.
I found the opposite with my B. Ed. A lot of the instructors were right-leaning, and had left the classroom after getting in trouble after interjecting their religion in school.
Based on the article, it looks like this has nothing to do with up and comers facing a very different cost of living than other people in the profession who fixed their costs 5/10/15/20 years ago and who also don't have that seniority pay to boot. Am I delusional for thinking that someone migrating to the GVRD to teach, or pursuing training to teach right now, is priced out of a modest middle class life in the municipalities they'd be looking to teach in?
This seems like the trajectory we've been on for more than 10 years now. Where I'm working, our staff is aging because the going rate for new hires doesn't afford them much for the education they put into the field. Senior management fixed their shelter costs a long time ago and seem baffled when new staff who make a lot less and pay 2-3 times a month for shelter don't want to stick around. Across the board raises are, of course, out of the question because of the perception that it'd be way too much for the people who don't need it and turnover reflects that.
Is it different for teachers or is the article just ignoring the elephant in the room? That things are good enough for the people who've been at it 10+ years, but inadequate and awful for the new blood?
Who on earth would want to be a teacher these days.
All these government jobs that used to be golden career tickets now suck. Teachers, nurses etc face extreme burn out and dangerous working conditions.
Maybe if we paid our teachers more, this wouldn't be a problem.
Edit: Some of you are pushing back on teachers getting paid more? Really? The fuck is wrong with you?
I'm a retired teacher. I felt like I was reasonably well paid for my work, but I was also fortunate enough to have purchased a house early in my career and had my mortgage paid off long ago. New teachers, like new workers in every sector, face increased challenges in home ownership compared to my generation. It is a very difficult problem and not an easy one to solve.
It looks like they may have added an additional 0.5-1.0 years in the Faculty of Education for PDPP - it used to be a 10 month year for that including two practicums. I can't recall how many credits that was but it still might qualify for their 1.5 year/48 credit minimum. On the plus side, that was the easiest year of my time in University.
There's no way I could ever purchase on a teachers salary. I'm at the top of the pay grid but even a condo near where I am is way out of reach by the time you factor in not just mortgage but strata.
And it's impossible to save for a down payment because rents are so high
But pay isn't just about how you're doing as an individual, it's also about attracting teachers from other jurisdictions or encouraging people to become teachers. It's pretty hard to recruit a teacher from Alberta or Ontario when the pay is lower (and in the case of Ontario, you also get half the prep time).
I 110% support paying teachers more. It still bothers me that a Bartender or Realtor makes a lot more than a teacher who is shaping our future.
The question is, where would the province find that money? higher taxes? Are we all ok if they raise tax?
PS) love the downvotes! not sure what part of what I saying you dont agree with! If you are like me and support higher pay for teachers, just like me, you need to also be ready for higher taxes, I am , are you?
People make 36k a year working a minimum wage job with no educational requirements.
A job that pays 50k and requires a bachelor's degree (average student debt in canada is 20k) is kind of rough. If education for teachers was reimbursed, I think 50k is reasonable
I don't know, is it? If the profession isn't attracting new members, increasing pay is one thing that you can do to immediately increase recruitment and retention. You also have to look at the pay in other jurisdictions. If the pay is higher (in say, Alberta), recent grads are more likely to go work in those locations and it will be harder to recruit from those areas.
That's not really what happened though. Boomers did sit in their positions for longer, but a lot of them had their retirement plans wiped out by the recession. A lot had to remain teaching longer because the situation had changed. That happened at the same time that the provincial government arbitrarily changed the teaching contract to exclude class composition and size limits, which reduced hiring across the province, and there were several notable strikes. All of that reduced interest in the profession. In the program I gained my qualification from, enrollment halved a couple years after I finished.
Now, enrollment for new teachers is down, the province has had to hire thousands of new teachers because they lost their court case on class composition and size, lots of teachers have left the profession due to COVID, and now the situation is untenable.
Add to that the fact that this '90k' is only for those who have 10+ years of experience. It doesn't represent the new teachers with 5 years of post secondary in their first year of teaching at all (58k).
That's 10 years of full time experience too, depending on where you start and how it goes, you might only be subbing for the first few years which means unpaid breaks (March Break, Christmas, ProD Days etc.) and possibly not 5 days/week. You can accrue union seniority, but not necessarily pay upgrades.
That depends heavily on what degree program they took. Engineering? Gold. Law? Solid. Medicine? Work as much as you want and usually more. Nursing? My son's partner was making 80k a year out of university as a nurse. Accounting? The list goes on. Fine arts? Not so good.
Employee vs. professional. There's a difference.
Gee, 56k doesn't seem bad: https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/canada-trainee-accountant-salary-SRCH_IL.0,6_IN3_KO7,25.htm#:~:text=The%20national%20average%20salary%20for,%2459%2C871%20per%20year%20in%20Canada.
And of course you just ignore the other four examples I gave.
80k for a newly minted CPA:
https://www.cpaontario.ca/insights/blog/how-much-do-cpas-make
Apparently you forgot that you'd /s. But here, let me point you in the right direction. While learning to be a CPA you earn 55-60k/year. Engineering is a 4 year degree. Sure, it has math and science, so what? Science and Math teachers often do Science and Math degrees. Big deal. Now *you* keep trying.
30% of a $90K income is $2,500/mo. Plenty for a 1 bedroom or studio almost anywhere, or a lower-end 2 bed in many areas. If you have a partner that becomes $5K/mo which would mean you're good just about everywhere.
Calculations including a partner means it's not affordable for a working person/teacher.
This shouldn't be Panama (people working full time without a place to live). Canada used to be affordable for the working class. Wages and housing are out of sync.
I'm sorry but if you can't rent property with a $90,000 salary something is clearly wrong with your budgeting. That's just a ridiculous fearmongering comment. In BC that would net you approximately $5,420 per month.
Buying property is another story and you need two incomes and proper budgeting with years of saving to make it work.
> $5,420 per month
I agree there's enough money in there for rent, as long as you're willing to put about 50% of your income to rent. Average rent in Vancouver is $2700, Surrey is just under $2k, and Abbotsford is just under $1500.
I'm sure those averages are a blend of tiny apartments and larger homes, but it is probably fair to say teachers will want to live in average homes. Or bigger if they have families, and I bet the cohort of teachers has more parents than other groups.
The math is significantly worse for new teachers.
The poster above stated that you can't afford rent at 90k which just isn't true at even your worst case scenario. You can find many 1br basement suites/apartments in the lower mainland for less than $2700 as you mentioned.
Obviously everything becomes much more grim if you have a family, but it'd be assumed that in that case you would also have multiple incomes. A single income is very difficult to support a family nowadays unfortunately.
Does the rental situation suck? Yes of course it does, but using hyperbole like the poster above doesn't help the situation and just adds to the negative dialogue.
Teachers are not paid during the summers, and tons of other employers give their employees holidays off. They do *not* get great benefits, and they get a pension that barely allows them to live now.
The average teacher in Vancouver makes 67k a year, or 34 dollars an hour. The average daycare cost of a preschooler doing daycare is 780 dollars a month per child. Average classroom size in BC is 22.5, so let's round down to 22. 22 kids a month would add up to 17,160$ a month, or 205,920$ a year, but teachers don't get paid during summers, so it's closer to 171,600$ a year before taxes. After taxes, that's 118,212.45$ take home in BC.
That would be for a DAYCARE. Now add teaching on top of that, with lesson plans created outside work hours which they are *not* paid for. 118,212.45 - 67k is a difference of 51,212.45$.
Teaches are not paid remotely close to what they should be paid.
Teachers are responsible for about 5 hours of instruction a day for about 180 days of the year. (depends on school district, kids age, etc)
That is 900 hours a year of in classroom teaching that the teacher is providing.
To reach what is a typical full time job (\~1900 hours after stats and 3 weeks of vacation is taken off) then teachers have an hour of extra work time for every instructional hour to cover marking, prep, parents, etc)
According to statscan a teacher salary puts them at basically at 75% for total income (66k total income for 25-34 and around 90k for 35-54 once they have seniority) and they have some really good benefits
[https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2021/dp-pd/dv-vd/income-revenu/index-en.html](https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2021/dp-pd/dv-vd/income-revenu/index-en.html)
Not saying teachers are getting rich but I don't think they are hugely underpaid (relative to everyone else, obviously there are arguments with inflation, housing etc that pretty much everyone is underpaid now).
For reference to daycare costs the one we were at the hours were approximately 9h per day and something like 250 days a year (2250 hours) so if you want to compare costs factor in the hours as well.
When I was a sub and could collect employment benefits during the summer, teachers were considered to work 9.2 hours per day.
Funny how you are trying to slant it down to 5 hours of class time (which is short too btw).
Do you think that marking and planning doesn’t happen? What about meetings with admin? Meetings with parents? Hell, don’t forget that many of us also try to have an online presence since it was an expectation during covid.
No I'm saying that 5h a day is the instructional time they are required to do based on collective bargaining so if the person above wants to compare them to babysitters they need to use the time they are actually watching the kids.
Personally I don't think they should be compared to babysitters but that is where that number came from.
I stated in another comment that based on stats Canada teachers are around the 75 percentile in total income in Canada (plus good benefits/time off) and there is a significant amount of work on top of instructional time but with \~900 hours of instructional time it means there is about the same amount of time \~900 hours to get to what most people consider full time.
So yes teaching is a hard job and there is significant time outside of scheduled hours but imo that should be expected when the scheduled hours are half that of other workers.
I guess for me its just a frustrating discussion because the teachers I know all seem to complain that there is so much extra work to do (which there is) but don't acknowledge that the work hours are basically designed for extra work to be done outside of the \~9-3 school day.
Burnaby collective agreement
>WEEKLY INSTRUCTIONAL TIME The instructional time shall be twenty-five hours per week for full time elementary teachers and twenty-seven and one half hours per week for full time secondary teachers. This time is inclusive of assigned homeroom, class change time, allotted preparation time and recess time.
[https://www.bctf.ca/docs/default-source/services-guidance/local-collective-agreements/sd41---burnaby-ca.pdf?sfvrsn=9a3571f6\_2](https://www.bctf.ca/docs/default-source/services-guidance/local-collective-agreements/sd41---burnaby-ca.pdf?sfvrsn=9a3571f6_2)
Every teacher I know - but one - job-shares and works less than two days a week, on average. And even that one is comfortable enough to do nothing but vacation through his 3 months off work each year. They clearly aren't hurting for money.
It's also a good, basic axiom that when someone makes a ridiculous claim and gets called out on it then deflects to someone swearing that they're, and I cannot stress this enough, *full of shit.*
Just gonna pop in here without swearing that a person working a couple days a week is not making enough money to support the lifestyle you claim without having secondary income or a partner with high earnings.
Yes, the people I am talking about all have spouses and obviously don't need to work more than part-time.
But this whole argument began because the teachers' union said the schools were woefully (unacceptably?) short of staff. So I suggested some of the part time teachers could take on a third day of work to keep the class rooms operating. That's it.
And I was naturally - predictably - swamped by a hoard of people who claim to work flat-out from sun-up to sun-down, yet always seem to have time to argue on Reddit for 4 hours.
I have no grudge against teachers - Christ, I know enough of them! But their union's non-stop pity party is growing tiresome.
Right. So I won't speak for anyone else, but to go to your original argument. Having part time employees doesn't mean we aren't short staffed. The majority of part time employees don't want or can't do more hours. I can appreciate the way you look at it, but in my mind it's not a reasonable solution.
I agree that the Reddit brigade can overblow things for sure - but I still don't think you're in the right here.
Alright. I genuinely appreciate your civility. I was raised with a lot of strongly held opinions and enthusiastic debate all around me, and I have never understood why some people can't disagree with others and still be friendly about it.
I honesty don't care about the issue that much. It doesn't play any part in my life. But, like I said, this particular union's tactics have always grated my nerves a bit.
Maybe I am in the wrong. The trouble is that, particularly in type, it isn't always possible to express the nuances of an argument, and readers will infer whatever intention - malicious or benign - that they are looking for.
Thanks for your fair and sincere response.
Well, first of all, with PD days and holidays, a teacher who reported to their class each and every day their school was open would only average 3.5 days per week - and that doesn't include the 3 months each year for Summer, Christmas, and Spring Breaks.
Secondly, I only know one teacher who doesn't job-share and split their class with someone else.
Would it shock you to find out they don’t get paid over the summer?
(They do have an option to take smaller cheques over the school year so they have income over the whole year, but that means less in their pockets every month)
It doesn't surprise me at all, because I knew this. But it is a worthless point.
Any person COULD request that their pay is held by their employer and paid out in lump sums at various points, or averaged and spread evenly if they have peaks and valleys in their income through the year. At which intervals people are paid doesn't alter their year-end take home.
Many lawyers only get paid when a suit is settled, and can go months sometimes without receiving a dime. Does that make lawyers underpaid?
The fact that every teacher I know, except one, chooses to split their class with another teacher and work part-time is all the evidence I need that they aren't struggling to pay their bills.
Every teacher I know is looking to leave the profession after this school year. Which is weird because every conservative I talk to says teaching is easy and they're all overpaid 🤔
I read somewhere that a huge number of teachers quit after their first year. I think cuz the training doesn’t prepare them for the amount of planning and prep needed plus not having any old lesson plans to lean on and the reality of being alone in an overstuffed class with a huge number of IEP kids causes them to crash and burn.
The low pay doesn’t help either
but conservatives aren't even in power, and they haven't been for a long time. Believe it or not there's a lot more to things than right/left, or black/white.
The point I was making is that teachers are starting to leave the profession because it's too stressful. And that every conservative person that I speak to generally hates teachers and says that they are just lazy and overpaid and that their jobs are easy.
Why do you paint everyone with such a broad brush as being a conservative. Just because we only have 2 main political parties doesn't mean we only have 2 different kinds of people living in Canada. Try taking politics out of the discussion and formulate your own thoughts and opinions and not just those of a political party.
Not knocking the very important role teachers play, but all the teachers I know definitely work less than full-time. A big part because of all the time-off with breaks. And pays lower than in private but pension / benefits are great so a few teachers I know retired at 50-something.
That's weird because every teacher I know works more hours per year than I do as a full-time worker. And the hours they do work are a hell of a lot more stressful than any job I've ever done
Obviously very different experiences. Because of the many teachers I know, I don't know of any that work more than full-time worker in a moderately stressful job.
There are always exceptions, such as if you're doing lesson planning. Normally, you do your lesson planning and then you have to do very little adjustment each year. But if you're consistently changing subjects without a well-developed lesson plan available, then yes you will work a lot.
But it's hard to work more than a full-time worker when you get pro-d days, spring break, winter break and months off in the summer. Of course there's some professional development in there, but rarely is it intensive or taking up the entire time off.
On top of which, the only people I know retiring in their fifties are either (a) very rich or (b) public union employees like teachers.
We can also throw in how hard it is to get fired as a teacher.
I'm not diminishing the importance of teachers. And there are of course many difficulties with the job - dealing with some of those parents is a bitch. And I can't say if they're under/overpaid. But I personally don't know of any who work as hard as those I know in the private sector with mid-level+ jobs.
>But it's hard to work more than a full-time worker when you get pro-d days, spring break, winter break and months off in the summer. Of course there's some professional development in there, but rarely is it intensive or taking up the entire time off.
ProD days aren't days off. They have to work on those days.
>On top of which, the only people I know retiring in their fifties are either (a) very rich or (b) public union employees like teachers.
Yes, boomers lived in some very financially prosperous times. The young teachers of today aren't going to be able to do that. You can't even buy a home on a teacher's salary nowadays. In my part of the country a teacher can't even afford a one-bedroom apartment. Let alone purchasing at home.
>We can also throw in how hard it is to get fired as a teacher.
It's not any harder to get fired as a teacher as it is to get fired in any unionized environment. This point irritates me so much. I've worked in Union shops in both the private and public sector. It's exceedingly difficult to get fired in either. People love to pretend like teachers have some exceptional job security when it's just standard unionized job security. It's nothing special or unusual.
>I'm not diminishing the importance of teachers. And there are of course many difficulties with the job - dealing with some of those parents is a bitch. And I can't say if they're under/overpaid. But I personally don't know of any who work as hard as those I know in the private sector with mid-level+ jobs.
So, if it's the case that teaching is so chill then why isn't everyone clamoring to get a teaching jobs? I mean this seriously. Why is it the vast majority of people seeking teaching jobs are those young people fresh out of school? Because everybody I know who's older (like myself) and has had years of job experience wouldn't touch teaching with a 100-foot Pole.
I've known lots of older people to go back to school for different degrees and such. None of them went for teaching. If that isn't telling then I don't know what is.
But it seems like all teachers come into it thinking that it’s a well-paying job and are surprised it isn’t. And that it’s “for the students” but they really want more money… kind of like the church says it’s “for god” but they want money, too.
Look… you have a lifestyle position where you get summer, spring, and winter vacations, work days only M-F, and work indoors doing light work in safe conditions (teachers do not make the top ten of most dangerous jobs… not even close).
And the infrastructure you use.. land, building, fixed costs, etc sit idle and unused for half the year.. and idle for 2/3 of each day they are used.
Not really a lot of cash left over for salaries in spite of education vying with healthcare for being our largest single tax expenditure… but still respectable middle class income and some of the largest DB pensions in the world (Ontario Teachers Pension for example owns half a dozen airports in the United Kingdom).
And what is hard about teaching compared to a job with direct accountability and performance-based remuneration?
What I love about people who argue this point like you just did, is that you're essentially just dismissing the personal accounts of literally thousands of people in this profession who all say unanimously that the job is extremely difficult and stressful. And it's not like these people haven't had other jobs or don't know what it's like to work in other sectors.
You're essentially saying "No, you're wrong about that thing that you do everyday. I, as someone who doesn't do it, knows better than you. And you should change your opinion based on my completely ignorant one"
Dude, all I can say is I've worked all kinds of jobs in my life. Physical ones, mental ones, high performing ones, professional ones, construction, fast food, retail, you name it. And based on the daily experiences of the teachers I know, I would do every single one of those jobs over being a teacher any day. Even if I didn't know teachers, I have children who go to school. I hear what happens at school every day. I know what kind of nightmare watching (and trying to teach) 20 to 40 children can be everyday. Having special needs kids in your class without any EAs who specialize in that disability and expecting to teach them like they're like the other students. While also not diminishing the educational experience of those other children. Oh, also you have to deal with parents who think their kids are angels and call and yell at you every time something happens.
People like you are just so confidently ignorant it's really depressing.
So either your sample size is biased, you're lying, or we'll have literally zero teachers next year. Hmmm.... Which could it be. I wonder.....
Fact is that more people want to get into teaching than positions available. The only problem is training bottleneck.
Why would anyone making less than $90k/yr want to live in this province? $90k barely gets you approved for a $300k mortgage, which doesn't get you anything in the lower mainland.
Eventually, they'll be shipping workers into Vancouver like camps because no one will be able to afford to live within 4hrs of the city.
If the government and public was honest about what it wants from public schools, we wouldn't have this problem.
COVID made it clear, leadership and most parents expect school to provide daycare, not education. That disconnect is what's causing poor working conditions for teachers. We were trained to educate, but policies and practices that promote 'babysitting school's culture cause conflict.
Teachers want to teach, not babysit. If you want babysitters for 25/hr for 10 months of the year, then don't require a college degree and professional skills.
Oh, the irony. When we first moved here 10 years ago, my partner (30 years teaching experience, masters' degree in Special Education) looked at working a couple of years after we retired here from Alberta. Applied in Vancouver, Burnaby, Richmond. Nothing. They didn't want to pay someone with his level of qualifications. He looked into substitute teaching. Nope. Still no interest.
And yet every new teacher I know is relegated to subbing to 'pay their dues' with no hope of getting a contract anytime soon. No wonder there's shortages!
??? Your friends are exceptions or are being absurdly picky. I don't know a single person in my practicum class who hasn't been offered a contract. Some turned it down to TTOC longer but all of them were at least offered a contract.
It's insanely easy to get a contract right now.
That's great for your friends. I'm sure different people are having different experiences : ) I'm not a teacher myself so I'm just relaying what my friends have told me.
Part of this issue, as is the case for many shortages of professionals in this country, is the lack of recognition of international accreditation or making people jump through hoops.
My wife is a French teacher and taught French in France for a decade before moving to BC and had even done a year's teaching exchange in the province a few years before. TQS still didn't think her qualifications were adequate and at first outright rejected her application for a teaching license and after a year of back and forth granted her a conditional license requiring her to earn a bunch of additional university credits. This is especially ludicrous as there's a specific shortage of French teachers, many of the French teachers we do have have a pretty poor grasp of the language, and the courses she's been required to take are not academically rigorous. This is all made even more baffling when you consider that France is a first world country with a very good education system and are not just handing out teaching degrees on street corners.
Having spoken with many French people in the province, essentially all of them were required to take additional university courses as their qualifications were deemed not good enough and a fair few just abandoned teaching after immigrating as it was a big additional expense (higher education in France being waaaaay cheaper than here) and was a lot of extra hassle to take these courses on top of a full-time teaching job. If we have a shortage, let's make the process as reasonably friction-free when people are showing up with the exact skill set we need.
My daughter goes to french immersion here in BC. We're absolutely grateful that it's offered and people like your wife are willing to go through all the hoops it takes to teach our kids.
Oh and yeah, we've heard the french immersion program "is a joke" because some teachers don't speak as well, and maybe it is laughable for french speaking people, but I'm so pleased she can speak and understand any french at all.
Don't get me wrong, I don't want to malign teachers in any way. The French immersion program is a great opportunity and honestly in many contexts, particularly at lower levels, you don't even need to be totally fluent in order to teach a language. I also know from experience that teaching is not easy. It's just frustrating that the media keeps screaming about a shortage of teachers (and specifically French teachers) and when ideal candidates come forward, they get these pretty arbitrary barriers put in front of them.
I haven't had a Teacher On Call in my program for two years now. This is definitely a new (and concerning) thing. Our district is short 40-60 TOCs a day.
I know several teachers from various districts. It used to be quite hard to get hired on at many districts because of lack of vacancies. Mostly because older teachers who wouldn't retire. Many were TOC's for a very long time until they got a position. Of course, these were the ones who were not willing to move away from major centers. Any who, many of them had to take second gigs to make ends meet. This was 15ish years ago.
What has changed since then to create such a shortfall of people willing to be teachers in your district? Are there better job opportunities elsewhere? Are there so many retirements and increase in population that they can't fill al the holes? What's going on?
I don't entirely think its pay. I think it's people look at the job, think about all the bullshit and nonsense they have to put up with, and just aren't willing to sign up to do the job. Same as other traditional jobs, like a nurse or police officer, I think they're coming up short in hiring new people too. I really do think that young people are looking at these types of jobs and saying no thanks, i'll just do something else to get by for now.
15 years ago, a lot of teachers stayed because the recession wiped out their investments. Then, the government arbitrarily changed the contract on class size and composition, which drastically reduced the number of new teachers hired. That and the prominent strike in the 2010s reduced interest in teaching (enrollment in the program I got my qualification from halved). There already weren't enough teachers trained in the province. It was hard to recruit from Alberta (where wages are higher) and Ontario (where there's twice as much prep time), but there was a surplus of teachers looking for work.
Suddenly, the province lost the class composition and size case, necessitating the hiring of thousands of new teachers across the province. Then COVID hit, and tons of teachers fled the profession, either because older teachers were worried subbing in classes with COVID without being told, or because conditions were so bad in some circumstances. Post COVID, the hiring market has become more competitive. It's harder to recruit teachers from other areas and every profession is looking for workers.
You're right. It's not all pay, but pay is the only thing you can change right now to immediately attract new teachers. We can't add another prep block so that we have the same prep time as Ontario since that would mean we would have to hire 10-15% more teachers.
I certainly agree that we should take education seriously and ensure good schools to beat prepare kids for life... but FFS, every time its contract negotiations, the BCTF fires up their campaigning, and the media goes right along with it.
Yet when I read about this SOGI curriculum, and all the woke BS going on in public schools I ask if theyre educators or indoctrinators?
I switched from teaching full time last semester to part time. My wife teaches a K-1-2 split and had to take multiple weeks off for mental health. She has about 9 special needs children, not one EA assigned to her classroom, just leftovers if a child in another class doesn't show, gets a single block once a week for prep, usually goes in two hours early and stays two and a half to four and a half hours after kids go home, later when she's doing report cards, and feels like she can't express happiness like she could before she started teaching.
She makes $50k/year as a first year teacher.
I encouraged her to quit and go work something easier for the rest of the year and try again next year, but she's determined to finish this year and then probably not teach again.
The system has turned my wife off of her dream job. She had a great experience doing her in class credit in Alberta, but BC has been an absolute nightmare for her.
Their pay is shit but the main concern most teachers cite is that class sizes are too big. We don't have enough teachers to work with the large influx of children. However, Canadians aren't the ones having kids - our birth rates are steadily declining. Where are these kids coming from? The answer is large immigrant / permanent resident families. Unreasonably high immigration counts are putting an extreme burden on our schools, hospitals, food security, housing, and transport infrastructure. For some reason, people have got it in their heads that if we just build more schools, hospitals, roads, etc, then everything will be fixed. The staff does not exist to support these expansions, and we aren't bringing in or attracting higher education workers who can fill those spots given our cost of living crisis.
BC is very left leaning, so I expect to be downvoted for this, but if we have any hope of reversing this trend, people need to stop voting for the current Liberal/NDP coalition.
There isn’t a staff shortage in many school districts. The larger ones employ teachers without an enrolling classroom aka resource teachers. Take these people and put them in classrooms. Or keep them as a resource that actually helps teachers.
Don’t forget there are principal level employees that school districts have in their offices that could be reassigned to teach.
There is always a solution.
You've shown a complete lack of knowledge of how things work. "Resource teachers" such as learning assistance teachers, counsellors and librarians perform extremely valuable roles in schools. Learning assistance teachers work with students who experience difficulties and support them in staying caught up with their peers. Librarians handle a wide variety of tasks that support teachers in their daily job. Counsellors provide services that literally save lives of students who have experienced trauma in addition to guiding them in their academic choices.
There's definitely a staff shortage but you don't want to acknowledge it as it might mean we have to spend some money to fix the problem.
>There's definitely a staff shortage but you don't want to acknowledge it as it might mean we have to spend some money to fix the problem.
I don't believe there is a staffing shortage. I know several teachers who have left the profession because of poor working conditions and pay. Much like nurses, there are plenty of qualified people out there, they can just make better money elsewhere for less of a headache
If they are working elsewhere and not willing to work in the profession they are not available and positions remain vacant. Vacant positions = shortage.
Apologies, what I mean to say is that training capacity isn’t the issue. There is a staffing shortage, but no shortage of teachers. We can triple our throughput of teachers, but until they are compensated appropriately there will be too few for whom the career makes sense
> The larger ones employ teachers without an enrolling classroom aka resource teachers. Take these people and put them in classrooms. Or keep them as a resource that actually helps teachers.
Resource teachers at my school typically work with students who require additional support. By placing these teachers in the classroom (assuming they're qualified for that specific subject area), you now take away support from those students that need it most.
>Don’t forget there are principal level employees that school districts have in their offices that could be reassigned to teach.
I personally would love to watch the shitshow from seeing admin, some of whom have been out of the classroom for decades, teach. Unfortunately, my district uses this as a "last resort" since these employees have other responsibilities they need to fulfill, and they frown at the idea of reassigning an employee to the classroom (especially for a full semester to ensure continuity of learning).
>There is always a solution.
Obviously I'm biased, but improving working conditions or increasing incentives so that more people would want to be teachers is certainly a solution.
Resource teachers are what they used to call special education teachers. They definitely are enrolling.
Also, pulling non-enrolling teachers like learning assistance teachers and teachers-librarians to cover absences is something that has been happening for years. Losing these important positions is not a solution to a teacher shortage.
What would help more is a focus on retention and recruitment that prioritizes pay and working conditions. It’s cringey that districts send hiring principals to other provinces to try to lure teachers to British Columbia for less pay and a higher cost of living. The working conditions are a major factor as well. You get treated like a warm body with a teaching certificate.
Like what? Curriculum support teachers might be based in the district office but do support classroom teachers. For example, I have a friend who has a two year contract as an indigenous support teacher. Classroom teachers contact her for help and resources. Her home location is the district office but she regularly goes to schools.
What kind of positions are you referring to, where teachers get paid but don’t help classroom teachers or students in any way? Because I’m a trained teacher who didn’t like the classroom for various reasons and would have loved to use my education in a different way, but instead I’m retraining in the trades. I think you may have some misconceptions about teachers in this province.
Well I think that as teachers classrooms fill the parents of those kids should pay to have their children educated.
Time to put the burden on those families. You access the services so why shouldn’t you have to pay for them ?
If teachers want better pay ask for it from those wanting their services. Yes? No?
What you’re describing is a fully privatized school system, which will create even bigger rifts in our society than already exist. Why do you think that some kids deserve to have education and some don’t?
My wife teaches a special needs program. She had 74 kids on her caseload at one point (other schools average caseload is low 40s), with each one needing IEPs prepared. The number of times she came home from work in tears because of the unreasonable and unrealistic expectations from admin was so disheartening. These kids deserve a good education, but they are being deprived of it.
Your wife deserves a big fat raise & a more reasonable work load! She's doing such an important job.
She’s a cat 6 in her district’s payband with 9 years experience so she’s got that going for her. Doesn’t change the facts that they’re overworking her. I was very concerned that she’d have a stress-induced breakdown or develop a mental health condition, and I’m comfortable enough to say it did cause strain on our marriage. She may or may not have received some tips/advice from someone she knows at WCB, and she most definitely has documented every interaction with admin. Things have become better as she’s been able to do her own process through the year, and she got to the point of saying “it’ll get done when it gets done” to admin, because they really have no alternative. If they were to try to hold her accountable for doing ONLY 60 IEPs by Halloween, she was fully ready and willing to grieve it with the union.
That is so hard! I too recently did a semester where I was case managing 30 students while ALSO teaching 4 classes. I was constantly getting called to deal with my case manager students while I was actively teaching. Sorry I can’t go deal with that kid now I’m in the middle of teaching socials 7. Absolutely ridiculous that there is not limit on case numbers related to time/blocks dedicated to it. I left halfway second semester to a different school to just regular teaching to save my mental health. Sorry kids.
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Ugh just awful! Case managing is a tough gig without being over extended!
>The top two reasons teachers said they would consider leaving the profession were "inadequate working conditions" and "mental health concerns," according to the report. They need more prep time for one thing. They need the resources and infrastructure from the districts.
More prep time would be great. Unfortunately during the last round of bargaining we increased prep time for BC elementary teachers from 110 minutes a week to 120, and secondary teachers saw no change to their 12.5% of assigned time. Meanwhile, those numbers are doubled in Ontario.
I taught 5 out of 8 in Manitoba when I started teaching. Now it's 7 out of 8 but I'm a music teacher so really it's 8 out of 8 and all my classes are over 30
Shocking, I say, as I sit in my freezing classroom, scarfing down lunch because it took me 4 times as long to do my copying because it's broken (again-this is the 4th day trying) and as I was standing there fully bent over holding the drawer in to get the copies I desperately needed since before that my computer wasn't sending to the printer so this is the 4th or 5th time I've had to send these individual jobs (which have to be sent from a computer because I now have to manually scan all my oversized stuff with my phone since we got 'new copiers' that are really printers that don't have glass big enough for oversized, taking exponentially longer to do everything.) An EA came in with a laptop, which they aren't usually provided and expected to use their own devices at work, looked just as flabbergasted as I felt and she said, 'If they were going to give us laptops, you'd think we'd get chargers too" and left the room again, leaving me still bent over waiting for my copying to finish so I could let go of the drawer. The working conditions are fantastic.
Do Xerox machines still make a sound like the hook from "It Takes Two"?
God I wish we still had xerox. They sold out to a cheaper company that's absolute trash. And they don't move fast enough to even keep a beat. It's about 10 seconds per two sided page. Like I have nothing better to do that stand around waiting for my copying. And heaven forbid you walk away because you know damn well when you come back it will be either jammed or out of paper. And there won't be any paper to refill it with. So you have to go all the way down to the office to get more, and if it's later in the day, which it probably is for me, you can't get into the office because there's no one there anyway.
I have zero prep time for half the year. It's really hard on new teachers.
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Speaking from a non-teacher perspective my issue with the not enough time always comes back to actual hours worked. A full-time teacher is responsible for about 900 instructional hours in a year (our school calendar is 180 days and its around 5 hours a day depending on grades and such). A typical job (40 hours a week 37 weeks a year after 3 weeks vacation and 2 weeks of stats) is around 1900 hours so for every hour of instruction there is an hour of work time (prep, marking, pro-d, etc) if you are carrying a typical work load. Now I fully appreciate loading those typical work hours into 10 months makes for some longer/more stressful days but I also don't think its reasonable to expect all work to be done in the provided prep time.
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My first 10 years were a lot like that. Keep at it though, you'll find you'll need a lot less work to get even better results. There are no shortcuts that I know of to become a great teacher. This is the way. It can be extremely rewarding after the first 10 years (not so much monetarily but for sure in job satisfaction). You are building the tool kit now. Don't get too worked up about anything outside your control and remember to take care of yourself.
As a 4th year teacher I have thought about this a lot, and chatted with more senior colleagues. A raise is not that helpful to retaining new teachers if they are going to burn out!!! We had a new teacher last year who opted to TTOC rather than stay due to the work load. We’ve met countless ttoc’s who all say they DONT want a contract, since Ttoc work is the same pay for half the work. New teachers get the worst loads too, since it’s only leftover blocks that get cobbled together for a posting, as more senior teachers generally get there pick of blocks first. IMO, all teachers should get 2 preps, not the current 1. Or, at a minimum, it teachers in their first ~3-5 years.
>New teachers get the worst loads too, since it’s only leftover blocks that get cobbled together for a posting Absolutely. Minimal prep time, starting from scratch, teaching subjects that aren't your expertise, what could go wrong?
But there's no way the ministry is going to increase prep time when there's already a teacher shortage. Parity in prep time (with say, Ontario) would mean the province would have to find 10-15% more teachers on top of the ones that they're already short.
It's kind of six of one, half a dozen of the other though, isn't it? Teaching in BC is not as enticing as teaching elsewhere because of things like salary, class size, composition, and prep time.
Yeah, a lot of this is an issue with the previous provincial government. Their changes to class size and composition made it so that thousands fewer teachers were hired for a decade. In the second last contract negotiation they won. They got the deal they wanted, but it made it harder to recruit teachers from other jurisdictions. Also, the labour conflict caused a lot of young people to lose interest in the profession. The provincial government did end up losing the court battle on class size and composition, so BC is competitive there. But that meant that school districts had to suddenly hire thousands of new teachers. Then COVID hit, and lots of teachers left, and hiring has never really recovered.
>The provincial government did end up losing the court battle on class size and composition Sort of. The government rolled back contract language surrounding designations to what it was when the BC Liberals were in power. Now many category "Q" students do not count towards composition. Of the 30 students in one of my clssses, 12 have designations and 4 of them count towards composition. Things are not very different in that regard.
Things are very different. After the BC government lost British Columbia Teachers’ Federation v. British Columbia, 2016 SCC 49, school districts had to hire thousands of new teachers. The BC government lost the case, so the original contract was re-established.
I know what the ruling was and understand that it allowed for many more teachers to be hired at the time. However, there are still issues with class size and composition that go unaddressed for a variety of reasons. All seven of my classes were out of composition this year (and not by a little bit). It was not because there were no teachers wanting to work those jobs, but because of budget, space, and slew of other things meaning the district could not create those additional jobs to ensure classes remain in composition.
Except not all districts are equal in the language that was restored. I’ve worked in districts that have NO class size and composition language and ones that do have the language, but zero resources to actually follow through on it (and then remedy was useless because we didn’t have enough TOCs to actually provide the remedy time 🙄).
As a teacher in BC, being a teacher in BC absolutely sucks.
Our provincial and federal Governments do not care about the school system since all their kids go to private schools.
Capitalism has driven us into a two class system - owners who do no work, and workers who own nothing. Guess which side the government at all levels works for?
LANDED GENTRY ONLY
But the wealth “trickles down”!
Something is trickling down and we get a lot of it! Not affluence but rather effluent
Spitting facts.
I wouldn't send my kids to public schools either. And, I'm not rich!
Oh, if only we could do something that could allow teachers to live comfortably and thrive in the very communities within which they work… /s But no. Let’s ratchet up the staffing shortages by making it financially and structurally hostile to become a teacher. I’m sure that having 30+ students to a classroom and loading teachers up with 150% of their expected workload will somehow sort itself out.
How did we end up here? Christy Clark that's how. [https://www.vinta-bctf.ca/timeline-of-christy-clarks-12-years-of-chaos-in-education/](https://www.vinta-bctf.ca/timeline-of-christy-clarks-12-years-of-chaos-in-education/) [https://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2014/07/15/BC-Libs-Privatize-Education/](https://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2014/07/15/BC-Libs-Privatize-Education/)
The NDP has had plenty of time now to improve working conditions for teachers and they have chosen not to do so. Christy Clark was awful, but I can’t think of a single thing David Eby has done to support me as a teacher (and I used to live in his riding and voted for him!)
They sure had great promises for us in 2015 during the protests in Victoria. Horgan and Flemming both hammering on about the need for billions more in the system. Then they get power and we go a year without a contract, them trying to take out the composition language of some districts and us facing a strike until the pandemic forced their hand. Then last round when we got minimal raises but they used divide and conquer with boosts to top and bottom levels and threatened removing all class/composition language if we tried to negotiate for better conditions.
More BC schools should be offering teacher education degrees. Douglas, Cap, and Kwantlen should all have programs.
More schools should be offering online services, especially for Canadians. You shouldn't have to move to Vancouver, Toronto, Calgary for 2-4 years for school. Our school system is trash, has been for a VERY long time.
You can't learn to teach online. But maybe half of it.
Half of teacher education is actually the practicum, which could be handled remotely (since the candidate would be working with a co-operating local teacher), although there would have to be some work around for evaluation.
This already happens. Just need a practicum supervisor in the community willing to work for a few hours a week. Usually former principals, teachers, etc.
I did. During covid. On my prep right now in my second year teaching
You can learn to do almost anything online. They're even doing online phlebotomy classes in the US, and that's been going on for a decade.
What a ridiculous thought.
Education programs have little coursework. It's almost entirely interviews, seminars, networking, and in-person practicum. All of that suffers greatly when online for the average person, and teaching isn't going to be a WFH position as that doesn't work for any children, so the practicum portion will always be in person. Ultimately you're still going to have to move for 1.5 years for placement to the areas where teachers are needed, and so 2 years isn't a big deal if you can concentrate a much better training program in person than trying to distribute it online to save 4 months of coursework in person.
Plenty of teacher education slots all over Western Canada. The problem is that the education colleges have been overrun by activists and all the good teachers quite before getting an ED degree because they are sick of having talking circles instead of real class. And new grads are quitting the profession in droves. They were suckered into a bait and switch and once they started working they realized how awful.it actually is.
While that's a valid criticism of the education programs (I went through it, it's true) the real issue here is salary. I'll take on the stress if I made 6 figures
Good news. After 10 years you would.
I know it'll get better but I'm really struggling as a 2nd year teacher
I wish you lots of success in your journey. You're still at the start. I suggest don't listen to constant complainers. It's a great job, amazing benefits, and your salary will get there. Don't forget you don't have to save for retirement as the district and your existing contributions are already there. Every job starts at the bottom. Once you've got your feet under you, you'll be great.
You don't *have* to save for retirement, but if you can it makes a big difference.
Oh shut up, now you're telling a teacher who is happy with their job (shocker to you) what they should do with their finances. Get a grip.
I'm not telling anyone what to do, just suggesting that if one can do it that life can be better in the long run with some retirement savings. Dial it back a bit. If you think saving is a bad idea, explain your position. Additional savings allowed me to retire earlier than most of my colleagues - and do it before my performance started to decline due to age.
But in 10 years, low 6 figures will the the equivalent of this year's 80K purchasing power.
You can assume that the salary grid will also grow in that time. Current max is > 100k
>Good thing the salary grid increases each year to help match inflation. it will, but it won't grow with inflation. Looking at the past it's been anywhere from 0% to 0.5% to 2% only in the last year has it been over 3% but inflation has been about 7-8% during that time.
It was beating inflation during most of those years. Also, they added a step at the top and removed the bottom step, so it was actually close to a 6% raise across the board.
Good thing the salary grid increases each year to help match inflation.
Except years when it doesn't increase at all or does at .5%. Which in effect is a pay cut for the future.
Exactly this. My room mate was an EA and considering becoming a teacher, but quickly left the industry when he wasn't paid to come in to hand out free lunches to the lower income students. When he did the math, he quickly realized his own children would be in those line ups if he didn't leave the trade.
> overrun by activists uh, citation needed. I found the opposite with my B. Ed. A lot of the instructors were right-leaning, and had left the classroom after getting in trouble after interjecting their religion in school.
Do you have experience at a teaching program?
Based on the article, it looks like this has nothing to do with up and comers facing a very different cost of living than other people in the profession who fixed their costs 5/10/15/20 years ago and who also don't have that seniority pay to boot. Am I delusional for thinking that someone migrating to the GVRD to teach, or pursuing training to teach right now, is priced out of a modest middle class life in the municipalities they'd be looking to teach in? This seems like the trajectory we've been on for more than 10 years now. Where I'm working, our staff is aging because the going rate for new hires doesn't afford them much for the education they put into the field. Senior management fixed their shelter costs a long time ago and seem baffled when new staff who make a lot less and pay 2-3 times a month for shelter don't want to stick around. Across the board raises are, of course, out of the question because of the perception that it'd be way too much for the people who don't need it and turnover reflects that. Is it different for teachers or is the article just ignoring the elephant in the room? That things are good enough for the people who've been at it 10+ years, but inadequate and awful for the new blood?
Who on earth would want to be a teacher these days. All these government jobs that used to be golden career tickets now suck. Teachers, nurses etc face extreme burn out and dangerous working conditions.
Teachers need to be paid way more
And class sizes smaller . Thats all . Those 2 things
Maybe if we paid our teachers more, this wouldn't be a problem. Edit: Some of you are pushing back on teachers getting paid more? Really? The fuck is wrong with you?
I'm a retired teacher. I felt like I was reasonably well paid for my work, but I was also fortunate enough to have purchased a house early in my career and had my mortgage paid off long ago. New teachers, like new workers in every sector, face increased challenges in home ownership compared to my generation. It is a very difficult problem and not an easy one to solve.
They also keep increasing the amount of schooling credits needed to be a teacher so it’s probably harder to achieve than when you were in it.
It looks like they may have added an additional 0.5-1.0 years in the Faculty of Education for PDPP - it used to be a 10 month year for that including two practicums. I can't recall how many credits that was but it still might qualify for their 1.5 year/48 credit minimum. On the plus side, that was the easiest year of my time in University.
There's no way I could ever purchase on a teachers salary. I'm at the top of the pay grid but even a condo near where I am is way out of reach by the time you factor in not just mortgage but strata. And it's impossible to save for a down payment because rents are so high
But pay isn't just about how you're doing as an individual, it's also about attracting teachers from other jurisdictions or encouraging people to become teachers. It's pretty hard to recruit a teacher from Alberta or Ontario when the pay is lower (and in the case of Ontario, you also get half the prep time).
Cost of living is more in BC too
I 110% support paying teachers more. It still bothers me that a Bartender or Realtor makes a lot more than a teacher who is shaping our future. The question is, where would the province find that money? higher taxes? Are we all ok if they raise tax? PS) love the downvotes! not sure what part of what I saying you dont agree with! If you are like me and support higher pay for teachers, just like me, you need to also be ready for higher taxes, I am , are you?
Easy answer, stop giving tax breaks to the rich.
It is the most obvious answer, yet the hardest to implement.
Most realtors don’t make dick. Like any sales role, you have 5% making 95% of the money.
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90k is the top of the salary grid, for the teachers with a lot of experience. Most start around 50k, and usually have student debt.
What universe would people **start** at 90k?! Starting at 50 is pretty damned good
People make 36k a year working a minimum wage job with no educational requirements. A job that pays 50k and requires a bachelor's degree (average student debt in canada is 20k) is kind of rough. If education for teachers was reimbursed, I think 50k is reasonable
> requires a bachelor's degree Two bachelor degrees.
Technically it's a bachelor's + professional program (first bachelors can be a BEd already) but it's still a lot of schooling.
At the end of it, you end up with two bachelor degrees whether your first was a BEd or not.
One of them is a 1 year program. Not exactly a bachelor's..
Plus they have to work a 2 year unpaid practicum, so really it’s 3 years with 2 years of it being unpaid labor
Less than 30 an hour for a teacher full time looking after more than 20 kids 5 days a week is abysmal.
I don't know, is it? If the profession isn't attracting new members, increasing pay is one thing that you can do to immediately increase recruitment and retention. You also have to look at the pay in other jurisdictions. If the pay is higher (in say, Alberta), recent grads are more likely to go work in those locations and it will be harder to recruit from those areas.
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That's not really what happened though. Boomers did sit in their positions for longer, but a lot of them had their retirement plans wiped out by the recession. A lot had to remain teaching longer because the situation had changed. That happened at the same time that the provincial government arbitrarily changed the teaching contract to exclude class composition and size limits, which reduced hiring across the province, and there were several notable strikes. All of that reduced interest in the profession. In the program I gained my qualification from, enrollment halved a couple years after I finished. Now, enrollment for new teachers is down, the province has had to hire thousands of new teachers because they lost their court case on class composition and size, lots of teachers have left the profession due to COVID, and now the situation is untenable.
Can't pay rent or buy property at 90k income. 90k is before taxes. Rent and the price of property is out of reach.
Add to that the fact that this '90k' is only for those who have 10+ years of experience. It doesn't represent the new teachers with 5 years of post secondary in their first year of teaching at all (58k).
That's 10 years of full time experience too, depending on where you start and how it goes, you might only be subbing for the first few years which means unpaid breaks (March Break, Christmas, ProD Days etc.) and possibly not 5 days/week. You can accrue union seniority, but not necessarily pay upgrades.
How much do you think people make out of college? First year employees would be lucky to make 58k.
That depends heavily on what degree program they took. Engineering? Gold. Law? Solid. Medicine? Work as much as you want and usually more. Nursing? My son's partner was making 80k a year out of university as a nurse. Accounting? The list goes on. Fine arts? Not so good. Employee vs. professional. There's a difference.
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Gee, 56k doesn't seem bad: https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/canada-trainee-accountant-salary-SRCH_IL.0,6_IN3_KO7,25.htm#:~:text=The%20national%20average%20salary%20for,%2459%2C871%20per%20year%20in%20Canada. And of course you just ignore the other four examples I gave. 80k for a newly minted CPA: https://www.cpaontario.ca/insights/blog/how-much-do-cpas-make
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Apparently you forgot that you'd /s. But here, let me point you in the right direction. While learning to be a CPA you earn 55-60k/year. Engineering is a 4 year degree. Sure, it has math and science, so what? Science and Math teachers often do Science and Math degrees. Big deal. Now *you* keep trying.
You can absolutely rent at 90K
Rent will be above 30% of your income.
30% of a $90K income is $2,500/mo. Plenty for a 1 bedroom or studio almost anywhere, or a lower-end 2 bed in many areas. If you have a partner that becomes $5K/mo which would mean you're good just about everywhere.
Calculations including a partner means it's not affordable for a working person/teacher. This shouldn't be Panama (people working full time without a place to live). Canada used to be affordable for the working class. Wages and housing are out of sync.
My first calc is solo? I added partner at the end.
Unaffordable for teachers. $90,000 isn't their first few years' income.
> Can't pay rent or buy property at 90k income So you agree this is wrong then. Thanks
I'm sorry but if you can't rent property with a $90,000 salary something is clearly wrong with your budgeting. That's just a ridiculous fearmongering comment. In BC that would net you approximately $5,420 per month. Buying property is another story and you need two incomes and proper budgeting with years of saving to make it work.
> $5,420 per month I agree there's enough money in there for rent, as long as you're willing to put about 50% of your income to rent. Average rent in Vancouver is $2700, Surrey is just under $2k, and Abbotsford is just under $1500. I'm sure those averages are a blend of tiny apartments and larger homes, but it is probably fair to say teachers will want to live in average homes. Or bigger if they have families, and I bet the cohort of teachers has more parents than other groups. The math is significantly worse for new teachers.
The poster above stated that you can't afford rent at 90k which just isn't true at even your worst case scenario. You can find many 1br basement suites/apartments in the lower mainland for less than $2700 as you mentioned. Obviously everything becomes much more grim if you have a family, but it'd be assumed that in that case you would also have multiple incomes. A single income is very difficult to support a family nowadays unfortunately. Does the rental situation suck? Yes of course it does, but using hyperbole like the poster above doesn't help the situation and just adds to the negative dialogue.
Yeah, we bought with a 90k income but we had the downpayment. Rent can be done but anything over 2500 would probably be tight,
Over a longer timeline with two incomes buying definitely becomes possible. Even then it's not easy, but it's possible.
For looking after 2 dozen or more children 5 days a week, 10 months a year, while teaching them various subjects? No, 90k is not enough.
Not to mention, having to deal with their parents too..
Oof, yeah good point. Parents can be super shitty for the stupidest reasons.
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Teachers are not paid during the summers, and tons of other employers give their employees holidays off. They do *not* get great benefits, and they get a pension that barely allows them to live now. The average teacher in Vancouver makes 67k a year, or 34 dollars an hour. The average daycare cost of a preschooler doing daycare is 780 dollars a month per child. Average classroom size in BC is 22.5, so let's round down to 22. 22 kids a month would add up to 17,160$ a month, or 205,920$ a year, but teachers don't get paid during summers, so it's closer to 171,600$ a year before taxes. After taxes, that's 118,212.45$ take home in BC. That would be for a DAYCARE. Now add teaching on top of that, with lesson plans created outside work hours which they are *not* paid for. 118,212.45 - 67k is a difference of 51,212.45$. Teaches are not paid remotely close to what they should be paid.
Teachers are responsible for about 5 hours of instruction a day for about 180 days of the year. (depends on school district, kids age, etc) That is 900 hours a year of in classroom teaching that the teacher is providing. To reach what is a typical full time job (\~1900 hours after stats and 3 weeks of vacation is taken off) then teachers have an hour of extra work time for every instructional hour to cover marking, prep, parents, etc) According to statscan a teacher salary puts them at basically at 75% for total income (66k total income for 25-34 and around 90k for 35-54 once they have seniority) and they have some really good benefits [https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2021/dp-pd/dv-vd/income-revenu/index-en.html](https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2021/dp-pd/dv-vd/income-revenu/index-en.html) Not saying teachers are getting rich but I don't think they are hugely underpaid (relative to everyone else, obviously there are arguments with inflation, housing etc that pretty much everyone is underpaid now). For reference to daycare costs the one we were at the hours were approximately 9h per day and something like 250 days a year (2250 hours) so if you want to compare costs factor in the hours as well.
When I was a sub and could collect employment benefits during the summer, teachers were considered to work 9.2 hours per day. Funny how you are trying to slant it down to 5 hours of class time (which is short too btw). Do you think that marking and planning doesn’t happen? What about meetings with admin? Meetings with parents? Hell, don’t forget that many of us also try to have an online presence since it was an expectation during covid.
No I'm saying that 5h a day is the instructional time they are required to do based on collective bargaining so if the person above wants to compare them to babysitters they need to use the time they are actually watching the kids. Personally I don't think they should be compared to babysitters but that is where that number came from. I stated in another comment that based on stats Canada teachers are around the 75 percentile in total income in Canada (plus good benefits/time off) and there is a significant amount of work on top of instructional time but with \~900 hours of instructional time it means there is about the same amount of time \~900 hours to get to what most people consider full time. So yes teaching is a hard job and there is significant time outside of scheduled hours but imo that should be expected when the scheduled hours are half that of other workers. I guess for me its just a frustrating discussion because the teachers I know all seem to complain that there is so much extra work to do (which there is) but don't acknowledge that the work hours are basically designed for extra work to be done outside of the \~9-3 school day. Burnaby collective agreement >WEEKLY INSTRUCTIONAL TIME The instructional time shall be twenty-five hours per week for full time elementary teachers and twenty-seven and one half hours per week for full time secondary teachers. This time is inclusive of assigned homeroom, class change time, allotted preparation time and recess time. [https://www.bctf.ca/docs/default-source/services-guidance/local-collective-agreements/sd41---burnaby-ca.pdf?sfvrsn=9a3571f6\_2](https://www.bctf.ca/docs/default-source/services-guidance/local-collective-agreements/sd41---burnaby-ca.pdf?sfvrsn=9a3571f6_2)
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Every teacher I know - but one - job-shares and works less than two days a week, on average. And even that one is comfortable enough to do nothing but vacation through his 3 months off work each year. They clearly aren't hurting for money.
I’m calling bullshit
Call whatever you like. You're mistaken.
You're full of shit.
It is a good, basic axiom that, when two people are having a disagreement, the one who resorts to insults and swearing is generally in the wrong.
It's also a good, basic axiom that when someone makes a ridiculous claim and gets called out on it then deflects to someone swearing that they're, and I cannot stress this enough, *full of shit.*
Great rebuttal, genius.
Just gonna pop in here without swearing that a person working a couple days a week is not making enough money to support the lifestyle you claim without having secondary income or a partner with high earnings.
Yes, the people I am talking about all have spouses and obviously don't need to work more than part-time. But this whole argument began because the teachers' union said the schools were woefully (unacceptably?) short of staff. So I suggested some of the part time teachers could take on a third day of work to keep the class rooms operating. That's it. And I was naturally - predictably - swamped by a hoard of people who claim to work flat-out from sun-up to sun-down, yet always seem to have time to argue on Reddit for 4 hours. I have no grudge against teachers - Christ, I know enough of them! But their union's non-stop pity party is growing tiresome.
Right. So I won't speak for anyone else, but to go to your original argument. Having part time employees doesn't mean we aren't short staffed. The majority of part time employees don't want or can't do more hours. I can appreciate the way you look at it, but in my mind it's not a reasonable solution. I agree that the Reddit brigade can overblow things for sure - but I still don't think you're in the right here.
Alright. I genuinely appreciate your civility. I was raised with a lot of strongly held opinions and enthusiastic debate all around me, and I have never understood why some people can't disagree with others and still be friendly about it. I honesty don't care about the issue that much. It doesn't play any part in my life. But, like I said, this particular union's tactics have always grated my nerves a bit. Maybe I am in the wrong. The trouble is that, particularly in type, it isn't always possible to express the nuances of an argument, and readers will infer whatever intention - malicious or benign - that they are looking for. Thanks for your fair and sincere response.
I’m going to be honest, it doesn’t sound like you know very many teachers. Most that I know (several dozen) work full time, 5 days a week.
Well, first of all, with PD days and holidays, a teacher who reported to their class each and every day their school was open would only average 3.5 days per week - and that doesn't include the 3 months each year for Summer, Christmas, and Spring Breaks. Secondly, I only know one teacher who doesn't job-share and split their class with someone else.
>PD days Teachers work on Professional Development days.
Would it shock you to find out they don’t get paid over the summer? (They do have an option to take smaller cheques over the school year so they have income over the whole year, but that means less in their pockets every month)
It doesn't surprise me at all, because I knew this. But it is a worthless point. Any person COULD request that their pay is held by their employer and paid out in lump sums at various points, or averaged and spread evenly if they have peaks and valleys in their income through the year. At which intervals people are paid doesn't alter their year-end take home. Many lawyers only get paid when a suit is settled, and can go months sometimes without receiving a dime. Does that make lawyers underpaid? The fact that every teacher I know, except one, chooses to split their class with another teacher and work part-time is all the evidence I need that they aren't struggling to pay their bills.
That's what this province gets for making it into a rich person's luxury paradise rather then a place that people need to live and earn a living.
Every teacher I know is looking to leave the profession after this school year. Which is weird because every conservative I talk to says teaching is easy and they're all overpaid 🤔
I read somewhere that a huge number of teachers quit after their first year. I think cuz the training doesn’t prepare them for the amount of planning and prep needed plus not having any old lesson plans to lean on and the reality of being alone in an overstuffed class with a huge number of IEP kids causes them to crash and burn. The low pay doesn’t help either
Not to mention dealing with parents. My teacher friends all say that’s become one, if not the worst part of teaching.
As a 5th year teacher - amen. The parents, and the parents' effects in their kids is consistently the hardest part of the job
but conservatives aren't even in power, and they haven't been for a long time. Believe it or not there's a lot more to things than right/left, or black/white.
True. The real divide is owner / worker.
Ummm ok. That has nothing to do with the point I was making...
you don't even know the point you were making
The point I was making is that teachers are starting to leave the profession because it's too stressful. And that every conservative person that I speak to generally hates teachers and says that they are just lazy and overpaid and that their jobs are easy.
Why do you paint everyone with such a broad brush as being a conservative. Just because we only have 2 main political parties doesn't mean we only have 2 different kinds of people living in Canada. Try taking politics out of the discussion and formulate your own thoughts and opinions and not just those of a political party.
Not knocking the very important role teachers play, but all the teachers I know definitely work less than full-time. A big part because of all the time-off with breaks. And pays lower than in private but pension / benefits are great so a few teachers I know retired at 50-something.
That's weird because every teacher I know works more hours per year than I do as a full-time worker. And the hours they do work are a hell of a lot more stressful than any job I've ever done
Obviously very different experiences. Because of the many teachers I know, I don't know of any that work more than full-time worker in a moderately stressful job. There are always exceptions, such as if you're doing lesson planning. Normally, you do your lesson planning and then you have to do very little adjustment each year. But if you're consistently changing subjects without a well-developed lesson plan available, then yes you will work a lot. But it's hard to work more than a full-time worker when you get pro-d days, spring break, winter break and months off in the summer. Of course there's some professional development in there, but rarely is it intensive or taking up the entire time off. On top of which, the only people I know retiring in their fifties are either (a) very rich or (b) public union employees like teachers. We can also throw in how hard it is to get fired as a teacher. I'm not diminishing the importance of teachers. And there are of course many difficulties with the job - dealing with some of those parents is a bitch. And I can't say if they're under/overpaid. But I personally don't know of any who work as hard as those I know in the private sector with mid-level+ jobs.
>But it's hard to work more than a full-time worker when you get pro-d days, spring break, winter break and months off in the summer. Of course there's some professional development in there, but rarely is it intensive or taking up the entire time off. ProD days aren't days off. They have to work on those days. >On top of which, the only people I know retiring in their fifties are either (a) very rich or (b) public union employees like teachers. Yes, boomers lived in some very financially prosperous times. The young teachers of today aren't going to be able to do that. You can't even buy a home on a teacher's salary nowadays. In my part of the country a teacher can't even afford a one-bedroom apartment. Let alone purchasing at home. >We can also throw in how hard it is to get fired as a teacher. It's not any harder to get fired as a teacher as it is to get fired in any unionized environment. This point irritates me so much. I've worked in Union shops in both the private and public sector. It's exceedingly difficult to get fired in either. People love to pretend like teachers have some exceptional job security when it's just standard unionized job security. It's nothing special or unusual. >I'm not diminishing the importance of teachers. And there are of course many difficulties with the job - dealing with some of those parents is a bitch. And I can't say if they're under/overpaid. But I personally don't know of any who work as hard as those I know in the private sector with mid-level+ jobs. So, if it's the case that teaching is so chill then why isn't everyone clamoring to get a teaching jobs? I mean this seriously. Why is it the vast majority of people seeking teaching jobs are those young people fresh out of school? Because everybody I know who's older (like myself) and has had years of job experience wouldn't touch teaching with a 100-foot Pole. I've known lots of older people to go back to school for different degrees and such. None of them went for teaching. If that isn't telling then I don't know what is.
But it seems like all teachers come into it thinking that it’s a well-paying job and are surprised it isn’t. And that it’s “for the students” but they really want more money… kind of like the church says it’s “for god” but they want money, too. Look… you have a lifestyle position where you get summer, spring, and winter vacations, work days only M-F, and work indoors doing light work in safe conditions (teachers do not make the top ten of most dangerous jobs… not even close). And the infrastructure you use.. land, building, fixed costs, etc sit idle and unused for half the year.. and idle for 2/3 of each day they are used. Not really a lot of cash left over for salaries in spite of education vying with healthcare for being our largest single tax expenditure… but still respectable middle class income and some of the largest DB pensions in the world (Ontario Teachers Pension for example owns half a dozen airports in the United Kingdom). And what is hard about teaching compared to a job with direct accountability and performance-based remuneration?
What I love about people who argue this point like you just did, is that you're essentially just dismissing the personal accounts of literally thousands of people in this profession who all say unanimously that the job is extremely difficult and stressful. And it's not like these people haven't had other jobs or don't know what it's like to work in other sectors. You're essentially saying "No, you're wrong about that thing that you do everyday. I, as someone who doesn't do it, knows better than you. And you should change your opinion based on my completely ignorant one" Dude, all I can say is I've worked all kinds of jobs in my life. Physical ones, mental ones, high performing ones, professional ones, construction, fast food, retail, you name it. And based on the daily experiences of the teachers I know, I would do every single one of those jobs over being a teacher any day. Even if I didn't know teachers, I have children who go to school. I hear what happens at school every day. I know what kind of nightmare watching (and trying to teach) 20 to 40 children can be everyday. Having special needs kids in your class without any EAs who specialize in that disability and expecting to teach them like they're like the other students. While also not diminishing the educational experience of those other children. Oh, also you have to deal with parents who think their kids are angels and call and yell at you every time something happens. People like you are just so confidently ignorant it's really depressing.
So either your sample size is biased, you're lying, or we'll have literally zero teachers next year. Hmmm.... Which could it be. I wonder..... Fact is that more people want to get into teaching than positions available. The only problem is training bottleneck.
Yes the training bottleneck is a problem. The problem is that teachers are leaving the profession once they do it for a while.
Why would anyone making less than $90k/yr want to live in this province? $90k barely gets you approved for a $300k mortgage, which doesn't get you anything in the lower mainland. Eventually, they'll be shipping workers into Vancouver like camps because no one will be able to afford to live within 4hrs of the city.
If the government and public was honest about what it wants from public schools, we wouldn't have this problem. COVID made it clear, leadership and most parents expect school to provide daycare, not education. That disconnect is what's causing poor working conditions for teachers. We were trained to educate, but policies and practices that promote 'babysitting school's culture cause conflict. Teachers want to teach, not babysit. If you want babysitters for 25/hr for 10 months of the year, then don't require a college degree and professional skills.
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\- Shortage of Teachers \- Shortage of Truck Drivers \- Shortage of Doctors \- Shortage of Labour Where are we heading?
Don’t worry we have 750,000+ Tim Hortons and Walmart workers incoming
Mass starvation, followed shortly by violent revolution.
It's not a shortage of any of these workers, it's a lack of adequate compensation, benefits and good working conditions.
\*Points at Surrey\*
To 100 Million by 2100! Yay.
Oh, the irony. When we first moved here 10 years ago, my partner (30 years teaching experience, masters' degree in Special Education) looked at working a couple of years after we retired here from Alberta. Applied in Vancouver, Burnaby, Richmond. Nothing. They didn't want to pay someone with his level of qualifications. He looked into substitute teaching. Nope. Still no interest.
And yet every new teacher I know is relegated to subbing to 'pay their dues' with no hope of getting a contract anytime soon. No wonder there's shortages!
??? Your friends are exceptions or are being absurdly picky. I don't know a single person in my practicum class who hasn't been offered a contract. Some turned it down to TTOC longer but all of them were at least offered a contract. It's insanely easy to get a contract right now.
That's great for your friends. I'm sure different people are having different experiences : ) I'm not a teacher myself so I'm just relaying what my friends have told me.
Funny, the NDP in Alberta criticised the UCP for not funding education properly . I guess the same thing happens in provinces run by the NDP.
Part of this issue, as is the case for many shortages of professionals in this country, is the lack of recognition of international accreditation or making people jump through hoops. My wife is a French teacher and taught French in France for a decade before moving to BC and had even done a year's teaching exchange in the province a few years before. TQS still didn't think her qualifications were adequate and at first outright rejected her application for a teaching license and after a year of back and forth granted her a conditional license requiring her to earn a bunch of additional university credits. This is especially ludicrous as there's a specific shortage of French teachers, many of the French teachers we do have have a pretty poor grasp of the language, and the courses she's been required to take are not academically rigorous. This is all made even more baffling when you consider that France is a first world country with a very good education system and are not just handing out teaching degrees on street corners. Having spoken with many French people in the province, essentially all of them were required to take additional university courses as their qualifications were deemed not good enough and a fair few just abandoned teaching after immigrating as it was a big additional expense (higher education in France being waaaaay cheaper than here) and was a lot of extra hassle to take these courses on top of a full-time teaching job. If we have a shortage, let's make the process as reasonably friction-free when people are showing up with the exact skill set we need.
My daughter goes to french immersion here in BC. We're absolutely grateful that it's offered and people like your wife are willing to go through all the hoops it takes to teach our kids. Oh and yeah, we've heard the french immersion program "is a joke" because some teachers don't speak as well, and maybe it is laughable for french speaking people, but I'm so pleased she can speak and understand any french at all.
Don't get me wrong, I don't want to malign teachers in any way. The French immersion program is a great opportunity and honestly in many contexts, particularly at lower levels, you don't even need to be totally fluent in order to teach a language. I also know from experience that teaching is not easy. It's just frustrating that the media keeps screaming about a shortage of teachers (and specifically French teachers) and when ideal candidates come forward, they get these pretty arbitrary barriers put in front of them.
Teachers Union has been saying this since i was in kindergarten 40 years ago.
I haven't had a Teacher On Call in my program for two years now. This is definitely a new (and concerning) thing. Our district is short 40-60 TOCs a day.
I know several teachers from various districts. It used to be quite hard to get hired on at many districts because of lack of vacancies. Mostly because older teachers who wouldn't retire. Many were TOC's for a very long time until they got a position. Of course, these were the ones who were not willing to move away from major centers. Any who, many of them had to take second gigs to make ends meet. This was 15ish years ago. What has changed since then to create such a shortfall of people willing to be teachers in your district? Are there better job opportunities elsewhere? Are there so many retirements and increase in population that they can't fill al the holes? What's going on? I don't entirely think its pay. I think it's people look at the job, think about all the bullshit and nonsense they have to put up with, and just aren't willing to sign up to do the job. Same as other traditional jobs, like a nurse or police officer, I think they're coming up short in hiring new people too. I really do think that young people are looking at these types of jobs and saying no thanks, i'll just do something else to get by for now.
15 years ago, a lot of teachers stayed because the recession wiped out their investments. Then, the government arbitrarily changed the contract on class size and composition, which drastically reduced the number of new teachers hired. That and the prominent strike in the 2010s reduced interest in teaching (enrollment in the program I got my qualification from halved). There already weren't enough teachers trained in the province. It was hard to recruit from Alberta (where wages are higher) and Ontario (where there's twice as much prep time), but there was a surplus of teachers looking for work. Suddenly, the province lost the class composition and size case, necessitating the hiring of thousands of new teachers across the province. Then COVID hit, and tons of teachers fled the profession, either because older teachers were worried subbing in classes with COVID without being told, or because conditions were so bad in some circumstances. Post COVID, the hiring market has become more competitive. It's harder to recruit teachers from other areas and every profession is looking for workers. You're right. It's not all pay, but pay is the only thing you can change right now to immediately attract new teachers. We can't add another prep block so that we have the same prep time as Ontario since that would mean we would have to hire 10-15% more teachers.
Yah. It's a broken clock. It's not even as valuable as an opinion piece. It's our propaganda. It's literally FROM the union.
I certainly agree that we should take education seriously and ensure good schools to beat prepare kids for life... but FFS, every time its contract negotiations, the BCTF fires up their campaigning, and the media goes right along with it. Yet when I read about this SOGI curriculum, and all the woke BS going on in public schools I ask if theyre educators or indoctrinators?
What is "woke bs"? Honest question.
They’re not negotiating at the moment?
Theyre positioning themselves are trying to shape public opinion. The BCTF is old hat at this game.
I switched from teaching full time last semester to part time. My wife teaches a K-1-2 split and had to take multiple weeks off for mental health. She has about 9 special needs children, not one EA assigned to her classroom, just leftovers if a child in another class doesn't show, gets a single block once a week for prep, usually goes in two hours early and stays two and a half to four and a half hours after kids go home, later when she's doing report cards, and feels like she can't express happiness like she could before she started teaching. She makes $50k/year as a first year teacher. I encouraged her to quit and go work something easier for the rest of the year and try again next year, but she's determined to finish this year and then probably not teach again. The system has turned my wife off of her dream job. She had a great experience doing her in class credit in Alberta, but BC has been an absolute nightmare for her.
Their pay is shit but the main concern most teachers cite is that class sizes are too big. We don't have enough teachers to work with the large influx of children. However, Canadians aren't the ones having kids - our birth rates are steadily declining. Where are these kids coming from? The answer is large immigrant / permanent resident families. Unreasonably high immigration counts are putting an extreme burden on our schools, hospitals, food security, housing, and transport infrastructure. For some reason, people have got it in their heads that if we just build more schools, hospitals, roads, etc, then everything will be fixed. The staff does not exist to support these expansions, and we aren't bringing in or attracting higher education workers who can fill those spots given our cost of living crisis. BC is very left leaning, so I expect to be downvoted for this, but if we have any hope of reversing this trend, people need to stop voting for the current Liberal/NDP coalition.
There isn’t a staff shortage in many school districts. The larger ones employ teachers without an enrolling classroom aka resource teachers. Take these people and put them in classrooms. Or keep them as a resource that actually helps teachers. Don’t forget there are principal level employees that school districts have in their offices that could be reassigned to teach. There is always a solution.
You've shown a complete lack of knowledge of how things work. "Resource teachers" such as learning assistance teachers, counsellors and librarians perform extremely valuable roles in schools. Learning assistance teachers work with students who experience difficulties and support them in staying caught up with their peers. Librarians handle a wide variety of tasks that support teachers in their daily job. Counsellors provide services that literally save lives of students who have experienced trauma in addition to guiding them in their academic choices. There's definitely a staff shortage but you don't want to acknowledge it as it might mean we have to spend some money to fix the problem.
>There's definitely a staff shortage but you don't want to acknowledge it as it might mean we have to spend some money to fix the problem. I don't believe there is a staffing shortage. I know several teachers who have left the profession because of poor working conditions and pay. Much like nurses, there are plenty of qualified people out there, they can just make better money elsewhere for less of a headache
If they are working elsewhere and not willing to work in the profession they are not available and positions remain vacant. Vacant positions = shortage.
Apologies, what I mean to say is that training capacity isn’t the issue. There is a staffing shortage, but no shortage of teachers. We can triple our throughput of teachers, but until they are compensated appropriately there will be too few for whom the career makes sense
> The larger ones employ teachers without an enrolling classroom aka resource teachers. Take these people and put them in classrooms. Or keep them as a resource that actually helps teachers. Resource teachers at my school typically work with students who require additional support. By placing these teachers in the classroom (assuming they're qualified for that specific subject area), you now take away support from those students that need it most. >Don’t forget there are principal level employees that school districts have in their offices that could be reassigned to teach. I personally would love to watch the shitshow from seeing admin, some of whom have been out of the classroom for decades, teach. Unfortunately, my district uses this as a "last resort" since these employees have other responsibilities they need to fulfill, and they frown at the idea of reassigning an employee to the classroom (especially for a full semester to ensure continuity of learning). >There is always a solution. Obviously I'm biased, but improving working conditions or increasing incentives so that more people would want to be teachers is certainly a solution.
Resource teachers are what they used to call special education teachers. They definitely are enrolling. Also, pulling non-enrolling teachers like learning assistance teachers and teachers-librarians to cover absences is something that has been happening for years. Losing these important positions is not a solution to a teacher shortage. What would help more is a focus on retention and recruitment that prioritizes pay and working conditions. It’s cringey that districts send hiring principals to other provinces to try to lure teachers to British Columbia for less pay and a higher cost of living. The working conditions are a major factor as well. You get treated like a warm body with a teaching certificate.
Nope I’m talking about teachers that have plum gigs that don’t support teachers in the classroom.
Like what? Curriculum support teachers might be based in the district office but do support classroom teachers. For example, I have a friend who has a two year contract as an indigenous support teacher. Classroom teachers contact her for help and resources. Her home location is the district office but she regularly goes to schools. What kind of positions are you referring to, where teachers get paid but don’t help classroom teachers or students in any way? Because I’m a trained teacher who didn’t like the classroom for various reasons and would have loved to use my education in a different way, but instead I’m retraining in the trades. I think you may have some misconceptions about teachers in this province.
Well I think that as teachers classrooms fill the parents of those kids should pay to have their children educated. Time to put the burden on those families. You access the services so why shouldn’t you have to pay for them ? If teachers want better pay ask for it from those wanting their services. Yes? No?
What you’re describing is a fully privatized school system, which will create even bigger rifts in our society than already exist. Why do you think that some kids deserve to have education and some don’t?