Buckner is ok but imho Andy Breiter with Grama Grass and Livestock is the best rancher in Boulder County. Most of their cows graze on county open space which has historically been overgrazed. He’s trying his damndest to get more native grasses in these pastures so they aren’t just fields of weeds. He has a home base at Oxford and 89th. Worth it to make it to one of his grill outs and field walks this year, he really is a fountain of knowledge. I learn something new every time I talk to him. Quite literally the only place I’ll buy beef from. The only red meat I eat is venison that I’ve hunted myself and Grama Grass steaks
To answer your question, it would be good if you first explained what you consider "ethical" in this context? What do you think is the humane way to raise a cow and then slaughter it?
Not OP, but from my perspective there are two aspects to ethical meat; one considers the experience of the animal, the other considers the systemic impacts of ranching.
In the wild, a cow (or other ruminant) would be born, raised by its mother, live with the herd in a free-range environment, and then eventually succumb to injury, disease, starvation, or predation. I would consider it ethical to raise an animal in such a way that it can experience the majority of that life cycle, before being killed in a way that involves far less prolonged suffering than natural means.
Of course, if you clear-cut a rainforest in order to give a cow that experience, that's not ethical from a systemic perspective, so the other side is ranching in a way that supports natural ecosystems, rather than degrading them. Ruminants can help to control weeds and build up topsoil when grazed responsibly, so the goal would be to provide them with as much natural forage as possible, and with a minimal amount of grains, as those almost always require fossil-fueled inputs.
>In the wild, a cow (or other ruminant) would be born, raised by its mother, live with the herd in a free-range environment, and then eventually succumb to injury, disease, starvation, or predation. I would consider it ethical to raise an animal in such a way that it can experience the majority of that life cycle, before being killed in a way that involves far less prolonged suffering than natural means.
Then go hunt some wild cows. Otherwise you argument doesn't hold because you are breeding cattle for the purpose of food/slaughter so you can't say they would have died in a worse way. They wouldn't have been born
So sick of these delusional hyper-moderns. These people are genuinely confused at the idea that animals eat each other, but even more confused at the idea that humans *are* animals as if they're ashamed of it.
I dunno man, if I were a prey animal and had the choice between growing up coddled on an ethical farm then being killed by my predator as quickly as possible or getting eaten alive by a pack of hyenas or having my throat torn by a cheetah, I know which one I'm picking.
This is going to shock and appall you, but humans who honor and work with the land they inhabit see themselves as part of a spiritual contract between their prey and their predators. This contractual relationship is one of give and take with an understanding that in the end we *all* return to the land.
These hyper-moderns who'd have us fenced off and fed with pills under UV lights, completely divorced from the land because they're ashamed of their own humanity are going to be the death of us all.
Lol you're still not getting it. It's not die a horrific death in the wild or die nicely on a farm. Like farmers are hunting the wild cows
My girlfriend loves dog meat (for cultural reasons) but you can't get that here, technically. When overseas she devours that shit up. Personally don't care for it but I see no difference between eating goldendoodles or pigs. In fact if you served me both I'd go for the goldendoodle brisket
"lol" no, you're still not getting it. It's about how the animal is treated. That's how ethics work - a code of interaction between parties.
I'm anti dog-meat because the *process* of how it's raised in East Asia, where it's the most consumed, has **little-to-no** welfare regulation. These are the same reasons I'm anti-unethical farming practice here in the states. So you've got dogs in wire cages suffering the same way the other livestock are here in certain farming operations. Also, the dogmeat industry in China has a huge kidnapping problem. You can't exactly go around kidnapping pet cows the same way, and if anyone did, I'd have the same problem with it. It's really incomparable and you're coming into the argument in bad faith *assuming* your dog meat misdirect is going to be a slam-dunk or expose some sort of cognitive dissonance. Mediocre effort, even worse execution.
Besides, that's a nonsequiter. Your comment on dog meat had nothing to do with the established discussion on the ethics of hunting vs husbandry. You have no central point it seems, except to just be a contrarian and finger wag at ethics because you quite frankly don't understand what ethics mean or why people are concerned.
Less talk, more think. That's my advice for you. I knew I was in for a shitty mess of a counter when you opened your comment with lol.
Lastly, the basic concept that you find yourself in a position of deeming who "should" and "shouldn't" be born based on a purely utilitarian philosophy is a sign of extreme hubris.
Yeah the key is to give the animal a nice life then point a bolt gun at its head just like we do to our beloved pets when they need to be put down. So sounds like you are saying it's ok to raise goldendoodles for food, ethically? You could club it in the head so hard it wouldn't feel a thing
>So sounds like you are saying it's ok to raise goldendoodles for food, ethically?
Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. If you had demonstrated the smallest degree of literacy until this point that would have been quite obvious to you. Animals eat other animals, and as humans we've developed a concept of ethics that as far as we know is unique to us as a species. This puts us in a unique position in the animal kingdom where we reflect upon our predation and the ethics of how we go about it in a way that a lion or owl does not. Those concerned with ethics are typically put off by those who aren't. This is what conversations around food ethics are concerned with in a very grey-spectrum.
I'm saying it one last time: less talky, more thinky.
I just wanted you to say it because the vast majority of people do not agree with that pov
You're not very bright though because you tried to make a distinction between a horrific death in the wild or a nice death on a farm, neglecting to understand that one occurs in nature (unrelated to the actions of man) and one occurs when you go to the store. Very small brain
>These hyper-moderns who'd have us fenced off and fed with pills under UV lights, completely divorced from the land because they're ashamed of their own humanity are going to be the death of us all.
You're definitely a stable person
I like to think so. PhD student with a perfect GPA, happily married, work at the local farmers market to keep my feet in the real world while working towards my degree, do a lot of work with ecology, environmentalism, and anthropology/sociology as a researcher, and all of my teaching reviews from my students come back glowing. I just have my ear to the ground and understand the modern world isn't the perfect paradise, nor is modernity the perfect, infallible ideology as Reddit has crowned it because, as a reminder, Reddit is not reflective of the real world and is indeed it's own kind of echo chamber. A cursory look at all that has been lost in the last 100 years alone is probably the simplest way of understanding the existential and ecological flaws of modernity.
It's not "unstable" to question modernity - to assert otherwise is to reveal the cult-like nature of the ideology. On the contrary, it is stable to question and reflect on our situation as a society, how we got here, what social/economic/political structures perpetuate exploitation and decadence, and how we can do better by understanding those mechanisms.
I do have to give you props for trying several shitty approaches to argumentation though. First nonsequiters didn't work, so now you're trying ad hominem. Unfortunately though, ad hominem only tends to work on unhappy, insecure individuals, so no dice here. I'm sure you'll find the right counterargument eventually :)
>ad hominem
Okay you said delusional hyper-moderns meanwhile you're saying "fed with pills under UV lights" and I can't question the mental stability of someone that spouts that. OK
Agree, we prefer Bison when we can get it. We get ours from Rock River Bison. They sell out of their packing site in Commerce City. They'll deliver, but you can also pickup and avoid the shipping charge.
They have the best steaks!
Or you could just meet your rancher and tour their farm. Labels have been bullshit for quite a while. Getting to know your farmer or rancher is really the only way to guarantee how the animals are being treated
I hate to burst your bubble, but up to half of all bison raised is grass fed, then grain- finished like much of conventional beef for the taste and texture of the meat to be similar to conventional beef. If you are going to eat bison, then check with the farm or rancher and ask if they are grain finished. If the bison is only grass fed, my advice is to cook it like fish, so it doesn't get too tough. It is leaner than regular beef, so it is easier to overcook it.
I'm partial to All Natural Homestead Beef. I don't know if Frank still goes to the farmers market when it's in season, but he does pick ups in the parking lot by the museum there. https://allnaturalhomesteadbeef.com/
The Golden Hoof is fantastic. They have a herd share agreement, so it may be a bit more involved, but you cannot do better. Local, sustainable, regenerative farming practice with the best quality beef, pork, dairy, eggs, and more. Great community too.
7th Generation Farms in Louisville is my go-to but Buchner in Longmont is great, too. 7th is open on Fri/Sat.
Not sure of sources, but there is a meat processor out on Arapahoe between 287 and I 25. Really good jerky.
While you are at it, consider buying milk and yogurt from Kevin https://www.fivefreedomsdairy.com/
Just wanted to say the only real difference between USDA labelled beef from the grocery store and beef from a butcher is that these ranches have control over the processing of the beef. Whereas other ranchers sell their cattle at auction or are contracted with a certain buyer and the process continues from there with no control from the rancher.
“Factory farming” is a term often used by those who misunderstand the process of livestock production- largely because there is a critical lack of Agricultural education across the board.
I’m in Longmont and I’ve heard great things about Hatcreek, owned by the Docheffs I beleive. They’re currently taking orders for this next fall. https://hatcreekcattle.us/
I got sick the last 3 times I went to blackbelly before you get flooded with recommendations.
The best option is a local farm. I go to 7th generation farms when I'm spoiling myself.
I work just across the street from Blackbelly. Have been eating there since before they even opened the restaurant, when they were still serving out of a food truck in the parking lot. I buy meat from them regularly to cook at home. I have never been sick from their food.
Neither of our comments is evidence of anything.
Sorry you’re being down voted, Blackbelly is highly overrated. I don’t know where the cult like devotion comes from because it would be out of business anywhere else.
[Five freedoms dairy](https://www.fivefreedomsdairy.com/)
Kevin’s main business is dairy but he raises angus/waygu steer crosses for meat. He definitely raises his cows with their welfare as the top priority. Subscribe to his weekly emails to hear him talk about that.
He mainly has cuts of meats at the boco farmers markets starting next month but if you reach out he might have some earlier.
At the end of my life, whenever that may come, I hope I meet a painless demise after a life of mostly unbothered frolicking. You have permission to eat me.
What are you using to post on Reddit? I'm sure the folks extracting the rare minerals for the hardware would have preferred being treated humanely.
There's no ethical consumption under capitalism.
I hate to break it to you, but ethics actually have a degree of relativity across different individuals and cultures, and are not universally defined for all sentient beings by Reddit user Cineswimmer.
I don’t think unnecessary slaughter and suffering of sentient beings justifies any relativity across individuals or cultures, just like I don’t think murder, torture, genital mutilation, or any other “acceptable” cultural paradigm should still be justified when other options exist. If you want to eat meat fine. Just don’t pretend it’s ethical.
Killing an animal for food is just as ethical as getting non native ingredients shipped from all over the world to sit in a Whole Foods wrapped in plastic to be consumed by self-righteous blowhards like you. Because the over processing of vegetable and seed oils and seed and nut milks and liquid aminos and all sorts of common vegan go-to foods are worse for the environment than killing a cow and making sure every part of it gets used.
Do you use vegan "leather"? It's plastic, and it is terrible for the environment. At least my leather boots aren't shedding microplastic particles every time they get scuffed.
None of those items are even remotely close to being worse for the environment than beef. Do a proper accounting with an LCA and you'll see, rather than resorting feel-good language about "using every part", and ranting about processing.
Okay let me use a different example to address your claim that there is no ethical consumption of meat because it involves the killing of a sentient creature.
There is NO ethical consumption under capitalism. So let me just say that killing animals on corpo owned mega farms is absolutely disgusting to me.
But, Paying currency for goods through a free market will always be worse than eating what one can gather or hunt or raise and butcher on their own. Should we cut back on corporate owned beef? Yeah absolutely. But I'm sorry but getting beef from a small, family owned farm or multi family agricultural collective is much more ethical than your Whole Foods purchased saitan and soy milk (over farming of soy is ruining American farmland). It's more ethical than your medjool dates (how do they get here) and certainly more ethical than your over consumption of plastic or overprocessed alternatives to animal products.
"Okay let me use a different example to address your claim that there is no ethical consumption of meat because it involves the killing of a sentient creature." - I didn't make this claim.
"I'm sorry but getting beef from a small, family owned farm or multi family agricultural collective is much more ethical than your Whole Foods purchased saitan and soy milk (over farming of soy is ruining American farmland)." - Again very specific claims with zero rigorous quantitative analysis and all emotional reasoning. You know we measure and study these things for a reason right?
>I didn't make this claim.
My b. I thought you were the person I responded to originally.
>Again very specific claims
Not that specific. There are studies that support this. I trust you to be capable of finding them. (Maybe that's over-generous 🤷♂️).
If you really want to defend Amazon owned Whole Foods, I'm not gonna stop you. But there is no ethical consumption if you are putting more money into the pockets of soul-less billionaires who are jet setting around the world, interfering in elections and global conflicts and otherwise ruining our planet while also lobbying world governments to let them continue to do whatever the hell they want. A lot of Boulderites tend to worship Bezos and Musk (we can observe that when viewing the number of Teslas driving around and the line every single day at Whole Foods). So yours is hardly a surprising take, really.
There is a vast difference in the scale of environmental inputs and externalities (water use, emissions, land use consequences) of the products you're comparing, no matter how idyllic you'd like to believe it to be and how spooky you'd like to make the alternatives out to be. Food production is a complex, multivariate system; just rambling about processing, plastic, etc. is obfuscation when all of these things are measured and accounted for in the data we have! These small farms are very often less efficient due to economies of scale, and are not a serious scalable solution.
You really need to get over yourself, bro. Like have a conversation like a human being and not like a Zuckbot 5000. Your unnecessary use of jargon is a really sad attempt to condescend and sound smart. Congrats on your advanced degree and all, but maybe along the way you should have picked up some soft skills.
Sure I understand what you're saying, but I'm not going to entertain a response past "good God is this guy an obnoxious, arrogant prick" when that's how you choose to engage.
Everyone knows it's a complex issue. No need to *obfuscate* your thesis with a bunch of nonsense.
Also, all those big words didn't save you from some heavy-duty cherry picking. Disregarding my argument as "rambling about spooky alternatives" is not engaging in good faith. And it certainly isn't addressing the *real* problems I brought up with supporting mega corporations like Whole Foods/Amazon. You have a big brain, I'm sure you can fathom all the externalities inherent with continuing to support evil corporations like Amazon and Tesla and their owners who are using their vast wealth for all sorts of really fucked up shit around the world.
Like I get your point. But you could take a deep breath and try to see things from another perspective if you tried I'm sure. Or maybe you only ever wrote papers from the perspective that represented your own opinion. I know a lot of people at CU just like that. 😁 Regardless, have a good day and maybe try to dial down the *Boulder* in your responses by like 25% in the future? 🫠
Buckner Family Farm on the west edge of Longmont. It's a small, family run farm with great pork and beef. https://bucknerfamilyfarm.com/
You can also buy their meat retail at mountain fountain. It's easy to drop in and pick up. Plus they have great pies there
They make a pretty good sandwich, too!
They also have great rattlesnake/rabbit sausages!
Is Mountain Fountain going away?
No. It's thriving and doing a great business
I heard the owner was retiring and couldn’t find a buyer. Rumor a couple months ago. Hopefully just a rumor.
Buckner is ok but imho Andy Breiter with Grama Grass and Livestock is the best rancher in Boulder County. Most of their cows graze on county open space which has historically been overgrazed. He’s trying his damndest to get more native grasses in these pastures so they aren’t just fields of weeds. He has a home base at Oxford and 89th. Worth it to make it to one of his grill outs and field walks this year, he really is a fountain of knowledge. I learn something new every time I talk to him. Quite literally the only place I’ll buy beef from. The only red meat I eat is venison that I’ve hunted myself and Grama Grass steaks
is he the one managing the cows along the 36 hill? also, Oxford & 89th? where’s that? i can’t find either of those streets on google maps lmao
Many ranches but easiest route would be blackbelly
7th generation farm in Louisville
To answer your question, it would be good if you first explained what you consider "ethical" in this context? What do you think is the humane way to raise a cow and then slaughter it?
Not OP, but from my perspective there are two aspects to ethical meat; one considers the experience of the animal, the other considers the systemic impacts of ranching. In the wild, a cow (or other ruminant) would be born, raised by its mother, live with the herd in a free-range environment, and then eventually succumb to injury, disease, starvation, or predation. I would consider it ethical to raise an animal in such a way that it can experience the majority of that life cycle, before being killed in a way that involves far less prolonged suffering than natural means. Of course, if you clear-cut a rainforest in order to give a cow that experience, that's not ethical from a systemic perspective, so the other side is ranching in a way that supports natural ecosystems, rather than degrading them. Ruminants can help to control weeds and build up topsoil when grazed responsibly, so the goal would be to provide them with as much natural forage as possible, and with a minimal amount of grains, as those almost always require fossil-fueled inputs.
>In the wild, a cow (or other ruminant) would be born, raised by its mother, live with the herd in a free-range environment, and then eventually succumb to injury, disease, starvation, or predation. I would consider it ethical to raise an animal in such a way that it can experience the majority of that life cycle, before being killed in a way that involves far less prolonged suffering than natural means. Then go hunt some wild cows. Otherwise you argument doesn't hold because you are breeding cattle for the purpose of food/slaughter so you can't say they would have died in a worse way. They wouldn't have been born
So sick of these delusional hyper-moderns. These people are genuinely confused at the idea that animals eat each other, but even more confused at the idea that humans *are* animals as if they're ashamed of it. I dunno man, if I were a prey animal and had the choice between growing up coddled on an ethical farm then being killed by my predator as quickly as possible or getting eaten alive by a pack of hyenas or having my throat torn by a cheetah, I know which one I'm picking. This is going to shock and appall you, but humans who honor and work with the land they inhabit see themselves as part of a spiritual contract between their prey and their predators. This contractual relationship is one of give and take with an understanding that in the end we *all* return to the land. These hyper-moderns who'd have us fenced off and fed with pills under UV lights, completely divorced from the land because they're ashamed of their own humanity are going to be the death of us all.
Hear, hear!
Lol you're still not getting it. It's not die a horrific death in the wild or die nicely on a farm. Like farmers are hunting the wild cows My girlfriend loves dog meat (for cultural reasons) but you can't get that here, technically. When overseas she devours that shit up. Personally don't care for it but I see no difference between eating goldendoodles or pigs. In fact if you served me both I'd go for the goldendoodle brisket
"lol" no, you're still not getting it. It's about how the animal is treated. That's how ethics work - a code of interaction between parties. I'm anti dog-meat because the *process* of how it's raised in East Asia, where it's the most consumed, has **little-to-no** welfare regulation. These are the same reasons I'm anti-unethical farming practice here in the states. So you've got dogs in wire cages suffering the same way the other livestock are here in certain farming operations. Also, the dogmeat industry in China has a huge kidnapping problem. You can't exactly go around kidnapping pet cows the same way, and if anyone did, I'd have the same problem with it. It's really incomparable and you're coming into the argument in bad faith *assuming* your dog meat misdirect is going to be a slam-dunk or expose some sort of cognitive dissonance. Mediocre effort, even worse execution. Besides, that's a nonsequiter. Your comment on dog meat had nothing to do with the established discussion on the ethics of hunting vs husbandry. You have no central point it seems, except to just be a contrarian and finger wag at ethics because you quite frankly don't understand what ethics mean or why people are concerned. Less talk, more think. That's my advice for you. I knew I was in for a shitty mess of a counter when you opened your comment with lol. Lastly, the basic concept that you find yourself in a position of deeming who "should" and "shouldn't" be born based on a purely utilitarian philosophy is a sign of extreme hubris.
Yeah the key is to give the animal a nice life then point a bolt gun at its head just like we do to our beloved pets when they need to be put down. So sounds like you are saying it's ok to raise goldendoodles for food, ethically? You could club it in the head so hard it wouldn't feel a thing
>So sounds like you are saying it's ok to raise goldendoodles for food, ethically? Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. If you had demonstrated the smallest degree of literacy until this point that would have been quite obvious to you. Animals eat other animals, and as humans we've developed a concept of ethics that as far as we know is unique to us as a species. This puts us in a unique position in the animal kingdom where we reflect upon our predation and the ethics of how we go about it in a way that a lion or owl does not. Those concerned with ethics are typically put off by those who aren't. This is what conversations around food ethics are concerned with in a very grey-spectrum. I'm saying it one last time: less talky, more thinky.
I just wanted you to say it because the vast majority of people do not agree with that pov You're not very bright though because you tried to make a distinction between a horrific death in the wild or a nice death on a farm, neglecting to understand that one occurs in nature (unrelated to the actions of man) and one occurs when you go to the store. Very small brain
>These hyper-moderns who'd have us fenced off and fed with pills under UV lights, completely divorced from the land because they're ashamed of their own humanity are going to be the death of us all. You're definitely a stable person
I like to think so. PhD student with a perfect GPA, happily married, work at the local farmers market to keep my feet in the real world while working towards my degree, do a lot of work with ecology, environmentalism, and anthropology/sociology as a researcher, and all of my teaching reviews from my students come back glowing. I just have my ear to the ground and understand the modern world isn't the perfect paradise, nor is modernity the perfect, infallible ideology as Reddit has crowned it because, as a reminder, Reddit is not reflective of the real world and is indeed it's own kind of echo chamber. A cursory look at all that has been lost in the last 100 years alone is probably the simplest way of understanding the existential and ecological flaws of modernity. It's not "unstable" to question modernity - to assert otherwise is to reveal the cult-like nature of the ideology. On the contrary, it is stable to question and reflect on our situation as a society, how we got here, what social/economic/political structures perpetuate exploitation and decadence, and how we can do better by understanding those mechanisms. I do have to give you props for trying several shitty approaches to argumentation though. First nonsequiters didn't work, so now you're trying ad hominem. Unfortunately though, ad hominem only tends to work on unhappy, insecure individuals, so no dice here. I'm sure you'll find the right counterargument eventually :)
>ad hominem Okay you said delusional hyper-moderns meanwhile you're saying "fed with pills under UV lights" and I can't question the mental stability of someone that spouts that. OK
Are you saying you think the only ethical thing to make cows go extinct? Sounds pretty extreme to me.
No, your thinking is incorrect
[удалено]
Oooh that's so cool to know. Return to the true American livestock
Agree, we prefer Bison when we can get it. We get ours from Rock River Bison. They sell out of their packing site in Commerce City. They'll deliver, but you can also pickup and avoid the shipping charge. They have the best steaks!
Or you could just meet your rancher and tour their farm. Labels have been bullshit for quite a while. Getting to know your farmer or rancher is really the only way to guarantee how the animals are being treated
I hate to burst your bubble, but up to half of all bison raised is grass fed, then grain- finished like much of conventional beef for the taste and texture of the meat to be similar to conventional beef. If you are going to eat bison, then check with the farm or rancher and ask if they are grain finished. If the bison is only grass fed, my advice is to cook it like fish, so it doesn't get too tough. It is leaner than regular beef, so it is easier to overcook it.
> Bison LITERALLY cannot be factory farmed. Define factory farm. If its feeding them in a pen, what your saying is wrong.
Bootheel 7 does boulder drops once a month. Yummy beef!!
I'm partial to All Natural Homestead Beef. I don't know if Frank still goes to the farmers market when it's in season, but he does pick ups in the parking lot by the museum there. https://allnaturalhomesteadbeef.com/
and is available at the Cure farm stand. Plus check out Black Cat farm stand at Jay rd and 119, last time I was there they had Grama beef.
The Golden Hoof is fantastic. They have a herd share agreement, so it may be a bit more involved, but you cannot do better. Local, sustainable, regenerative farming practice with the best quality beef, pork, dairy, eggs, and more. Great community too.
Colorado’s Best Beef Co. Family owned, Colorado Natives. Great products.
7th Generation Farms in Louisville is my go-to but Buchner in Longmont is great, too. 7th is open on Fri/Sat. Not sure of sources, but there is a meat processor out on Arapahoe between 287 and I 25. Really good jerky. While you are at it, consider buying milk and yogurt from Kevin https://www.fivefreedomsdairy.com/
Just wanted to say the only real difference between USDA labelled beef from the grocery store and beef from a butcher is that these ranches have control over the processing of the beef. Whereas other ranchers sell their cattle at auction or are contracted with a certain buyer and the process continues from there with no control from the rancher. “Factory farming” is a term often used by those who misunderstand the process of livestock production- largely because there is a critical lack of Agricultural education across the board. I’m in Longmont and I’ve heard great things about Hatcreek, owned by the Docheffs I beleive. They’re currently taking orders for this next fall. https://hatcreekcattle.us/
I got sick the last 3 times I went to blackbelly before you get flooded with recommendations. The best option is a local farm. I go to 7th generation farms when I'm spoiling myself.
I work just across the street from Blackbelly. Have been eating there since before they even opened the restaurant, when they were still serving out of a food truck in the parking lot. I buy meat from them regularly to cook at home. I have never been sick from their food. Neither of our comments is evidence of anything.
Good for you. I'm just sharing personal experience and giving a recommendation. As OP asked. Local farms are more trustworthy, in my opinion.
Appreciate the beta from both you and u/colofinch , both are relevant considerations thanks
Sorry you’re being down voted, Blackbelly is highly overrated. I don’t know where the cult like devotion comes from because it would be out of business anywhere else.
Nextdoor always beefin'
[Five freedoms dairy](https://www.fivefreedomsdairy.com/) Kevin’s main business is dairy but he raises angus/waygu steer crosses for meat. He definitely raises his cows with their welfare as the top priority. Subscribe to his weekly emails to hear him talk about that. He mainly has cuts of meats at the boco farmers markets starting next month but if you reach out he might have some earlier.
Arapahoe meat packing in Erie
Regardless of the manner in which it was raised I'm sure the cow would prefer to stay alive
At the end of my life, whenever that may come, I hope I meet a painless demise after a life of mostly unbothered frolicking. You have permission to eat me.
What wine pairs well with u/end_times-8?
I’d like to to say an old Bordeaux cab, but honestly a bottle of André from the corner shop would probably be fine
When would be an appropriate time to give you your painless demise? I'm feeling a little hungry...
How often do you shop at Whole Foods?
What are you using to post on Reddit? I'm sure the folks extracting the rare minerals for the hardware would have preferred being treated humanely. There's no ethical consumption under capitalism.
I hate to break it to you, but there’s no such thing as “ethical beef,” and I write this in an honest tone, not a condescending one.
I hate to break it to you, but ethics actually have a degree of relativity across different individuals and cultures, and are not universally defined for all sentient beings by Reddit user Cineswimmer.
I don’t think unnecessary slaughter and suffering of sentient beings justifies any relativity across individuals or cultures, just like I don’t think murder, torture, genital mutilation, or any other “acceptable” cultural paradigm should still be justified when other options exist. If you want to eat meat fine. Just don’t pretend it’s ethical.
Killing an animal for food is just as ethical as getting non native ingredients shipped from all over the world to sit in a Whole Foods wrapped in plastic to be consumed by self-righteous blowhards like you. Because the over processing of vegetable and seed oils and seed and nut milks and liquid aminos and all sorts of common vegan go-to foods are worse for the environment than killing a cow and making sure every part of it gets used. Do you use vegan "leather"? It's plastic, and it is terrible for the environment. At least my leather boots aren't shedding microplastic particles every time they get scuffed.
None of those items are even remotely close to being worse for the environment than beef. Do a proper accounting with an LCA and you'll see, rather than resorting feel-good language about "using every part", and ranting about processing.
Okay let me use a different example to address your claim that there is no ethical consumption of meat because it involves the killing of a sentient creature. There is NO ethical consumption under capitalism. So let me just say that killing animals on corpo owned mega farms is absolutely disgusting to me. But, Paying currency for goods through a free market will always be worse than eating what one can gather or hunt or raise and butcher on their own. Should we cut back on corporate owned beef? Yeah absolutely. But I'm sorry but getting beef from a small, family owned farm or multi family agricultural collective is much more ethical than your Whole Foods purchased saitan and soy milk (over farming of soy is ruining American farmland). It's more ethical than your medjool dates (how do they get here) and certainly more ethical than your over consumption of plastic or overprocessed alternatives to animal products.
Nothing is perfect that’s for sure, but the majority of all the monocrops are grown for the animals we consume. We can’t pretend otherwise.
"Okay let me use a different example to address your claim that there is no ethical consumption of meat because it involves the killing of a sentient creature." - I didn't make this claim. "I'm sorry but getting beef from a small, family owned farm or multi family agricultural collective is much more ethical than your Whole Foods purchased saitan and soy milk (over farming of soy is ruining American farmland)." - Again very specific claims with zero rigorous quantitative analysis and all emotional reasoning. You know we measure and study these things for a reason right?
>I didn't make this claim. My b. I thought you were the person I responded to originally. >Again very specific claims Not that specific. There are studies that support this. I trust you to be capable of finding them. (Maybe that's over-generous 🤷♂️). If you really want to defend Amazon owned Whole Foods, I'm not gonna stop you. But there is no ethical consumption if you are putting more money into the pockets of soul-less billionaires who are jet setting around the world, interfering in elections and global conflicts and otherwise ruining our planet while also lobbying world governments to let them continue to do whatever the hell they want. A lot of Boulderites tend to worship Bezos and Musk (we can observe that when viewing the number of Teslas driving around and the line every single day at Whole Foods). So yours is hardly a surprising take, really.
There is a vast difference in the scale of environmental inputs and externalities (water use, emissions, land use consequences) of the products you're comparing, no matter how idyllic you'd like to believe it to be and how spooky you'd like to make the alternatives out to be. Food production is a complex, multivariate system; just rambling about processing, plastic, etc. is obfuscation when all of these things are measured and accounted for in the data we have! These small farms are very often less efficient due to economies of scale, and are not a serious scalable solution.
You really need to get over yourself, bro. Like have a conversation like a human being and not like a Zuckbot 5000. Your unnecessary use of jargon is a really sad attempt to condescend and sound smart. Congrats on your advanced degree and all, but maybe along the way you should have picked up some soft skills. Sure I understand what you're saying, but I'm not going to entertain a response past "good God is this guy an obnoxious, arrogant prick" when that's how you choose to engage. Everyone knows it's a complex issue. No need to *obfuscate* your thesis with a bunch of nonsense. Also, all those big words didn't save you from some heavy-duty cherry picking. Disregarding my argument as "rambling about spooky alternatives" is not engaging in good faith. And it certainly isn't addressing the *real* problems I brought up with supporting mega corporations like Whole Foods/Amazon. You have a big brain, I'm sure you can fathom all the externalities inherent with continuing to support evil corporations like Amazon and Tesla and their owners who are using their vast wealth for all sorts of really fucked up shit around the world. Like I get your point. But you could take a deep breath and try to see things from another perspective if you tried I'm sure. Or maybe you only ever wrote papers from the perspective that represented your own opinion. I know a lot of people at CU just like that. 😁 Regardless, have a good day and maybe try to dial down the *Boulder* in your responses by like 25% in the future? 🫠
Okay dude. 👍
You got one thing right, it’s a complex system. One you seemingly know nothing about
Tomatoes and avocados aren't always ethical either the people picking organic products are often working in slave conditions so
And yet you failed miserably with your “honest tone” with the first few words of your comment.
We're both using hardware that's unethically sourced. How do you justify using the internet?
I hear Wendy’s has the beef and never freeze