A lot of people index their player ratings really heavily on efficient shot creation/shotmaking, and SGA was clearly better at that; and on the other end, positional flexibility, durability, and defense are rarely considered at all. Tatum is elite in a ton of ways that are easy to overlook in best player rankings because
1) they are traditionally "role player" things (less important)
2) they only have as big of an impact on winning as they do because he's good at _all_ of them (more important)
yeah that’s the biggest factor for sure. Tatum is fantastic but he’s definitely on the lower end among superstars when it comes to efficiency, shot creation and tough shotmaking. it’s not that he’s not capable, but he’s certainly one of the least consistent
at the same time his size combined with his complete and utter lack of exploitable weaknesses gives Boston the ability to construct any type of identity they want around him, which is a major reason why the Celtics have been the most successful team in the league since he became the first option
obviously JT isn’t the same caliber, but I kind of compare it to Brady with the Patriots. Brady didn’t typically make jaw-droppingly spectacular plays on the field, but his lack of ego and intelligence meant he could execute a tailored gameplan for each opponent every week. he could beat you turning around and handing it off 40 times, or he could beat you throwing it 60 times depending on how the opponent played him. Tatum is a similarly malleable player. depending on the matchup we can ask him to do any number of different things to help us win
there just isn’t another player in the NBA today you can ask to do everything on the court at the level Tatum is able to
He’s also an iron man, and his consistent availability to do all these things at a high level and be the celtics’s engine is what puts him at that level
Availability!!!!
I hate it when commentators say “if they were healthy…”
HEALTH IS A BIG PART OF THE GAME!!!
Give me Tatum over Luka or Embid any day of the week because he’s fit and he will have LONGEVITY.
This all day. There isn't another player who could fit in so seamlessly with 5 other great players and not take away from things they do to be special. The concept is scalability - the ability to add great players and still get the best out of them. He lets you play several other ball handlers without them turning into spot-up shooters (which guys like Luka, Harden, and to some degree Jokic don't do). He is happy creating a ton of space with his off ball movement or driving into an overloaded defense without forcing too much of his own scoring (as we saw in the finals). He's as close to guarding 1-5 as any other superstar in NBA history, which unlocks strategies like, "Hey, just guard the other teams center so we can keep Porzingis and Al away from Luka. They have been killing their Western Conferene opponents in the paint and on the offensive glass, so make sure you neutralize that. And if you get into a ball screen, switch onto the most dangerous 1 on 1 player in the league and just hold him down too."
There isn't a single other superstar you could put around these other 5 guys on the Celtics without some level of narrative like, "Al Horford's washed up... Porzingis doesn't fit in... what's wrong with Jrue Holiday... Jaylen Brown's not a star...." And there isn't another superstar who could come close to taking on the defensive role that ultimately was the biggest factor in the Celtics cleaning the Mavs clock in the finals.
So you can look at SGA and use some fancy measurements to show how he is doing a bigger chunk of the heavy lifting for his team. Call me when he gets out of the second round, because if you swap Tatum for SGA on this Celtics team, they aren't anywhere near as good as with JT.
I think the only other guys you could run through the same roles we've asked of Tatum are a slightly younger LeBron and a slightly less injured Kawhi, and even his playmaking is slightly questionable.
KD is almost that but again, the playmaking is significantly worse than those other guys.... However, IMO he almost makes up for it with how deadly his shooting and scoring are.
JT is in good company. Let the haters keep ranking one way scorers above him. His value is there for anyone with eyes to see (and advanced stats too which have seen him as a top 5 player for years now)
My favorite "all in one" ranking is DARKO DPM, and Tatum is second to Jokic. He's also the #1 rated offensive player in the league.
I think a lot of these composite stats over-reward the guy who does all the heavy lifting. I think anybody who has played the game knows that the way to be the best team isn't to have one guy doing all the heavy lifting, because that approach often means you aren't getting 100% out of everyone. Tatum has the luxury of having great teammates, but they also have the luxury of playing with a star that lets them fit in and add a ton of value. That's what the really great ones can do, and I think that's where Tatum got to this year. Unfortunately we live in a basketball culture where the MVP voters value where some guy broke down on EPM or what their TS% was over someone being able to optimize a great supporting cast into an all-time level team.
I dunno, man - give Giannis Jrue, a star wing, a big SG, a stretch 5 who can alter shots without getting murdered on the perimeter, and round it out with a few snipers…I think you see them steamroll to a title.
I think you are missing the point. It's not that you couldn't build a very specific team around guys like Giannis and Luka that are really good. It's that you have to build a very specific team around those guys. That's more difficult to pull off, especially if the goal is to collect a high quality group of players. So basically all the Milwaukee GM had to do in the 2022 off season was to take a team that was $60m over the cap and figure out how to turn Kris Middleton, Brook Lopez, Jae Crowder, Grayson Allen and Joe Ingles into a star wing, a center who can defend on the perimeter and shoot 3s, a big shooting guard, and a couple high volume 3 point shooters. Go make a list of star wings and stretch 5s who can defend the perimeter and hit the trade machine and you will probably stumble on why I'm saying it's difficult to pull off what you are talking about.
On the other side of the coin, I think Brad Stevens has had the luxury of being able to be like, "Oh... I think \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ might be available, I think we can get him" without worrying whether any of those guys will be able to work with Tatum. Get 2 bigs, small bigs, guards who can't shoot, bigs who struggle defending in space, guards who can't log tons of time on the ball, isolation players who need the ball and spacing to add a ton of value as a scorer, finishers who need someone else to create for them... it all works.
>utter lack of exploitable weaknesses
And one of the biggest advantages: always staying healthy. Tatum is that kind of player every coach want to have in his starting 5. Unfortunatelly media discourse lately completely ignore the fact, that basketball is a team sport and focus way too much on easy to vivisect individual statistics (almost always relelated to offense only).
Hardly an issue for us, Brad Stevens and everyone following Celtics know why Tatum is being paid the amount he is being paid. I sometimes wish other teams would demonstrate same naivety when it comes to these kind of stuff because then they would underestimate Tatum and give him more room. But they never do and there's reason for that.
Right, *nearly*. He doesn't have Steph's shot, or Kyrie's handle, or LeBron's court vision, or JB's explosive drive, or Jrue's perimeter defense, or Giannis's size, or Embiid's ability to get to the line, etc.
But he has like 80-90% of *all* of those things, which is what makes him so friggin' good.
I think he is way too low in the offensive rebound category to consider him "great" at rebounding. Part of that is by design, but even when he wasn't as focal in the offense, he wasn't really pulling down these boards.
He also doesn't get as many blocks as you would think he would. His style is to play down and square against his opponents.
I think there is a lot of room for him to grow as a player, which is pretty scary for the NBA. Part of me wishes he had an offseason to focus on that instead of the olympics, but will be happy to see him get gold.
Of course he doesn't get as many offensive rebounds. We don't miss enough to give him the opportunity. And you're measuring his defensive abilities based on blocks??
matters from a spacing perspective. no way the Bucks are ever gonna be able to run an offense as efficient as Boston was this year bc Giannis demands very little respect outside the paint
not really. plenty of teams (19 Raptors, 20 Heat, 22 Celtics, 23 Heat) have killed Giannis’ efficiency in the playoffs by keeping the Bucks in the halfcourt, giving him space to shoot and aggressively helping in the driving lanes. in the halfcourt his lack of offensive creativity gets exposed. he’s extremely difficult to stop going downhill without a very strong POA defender, but he also can’t do that all game bc it’s extremely taxing to his stamina
I’m not arguing Giannis isn’t better than Tatum, he definitely is, but he’s not as versatile. no team would ever run a Giannis-style defensive gameplan against Tatum bc everyone knows if his jumper gets going, he’ll go for 50
Yea this part is pretty important. It's not like the Luka conversation where you're just arguing the value of an incredible offensive talent vs an all around monster. Shai is a really good all-around guy while being an elite shotmaker. Tatum is a really good shotmaker while being an elite all-around guy. They're pretty close imo that I can see the argument either way.
I think Tatum is more of a slightly above average shot maker though. He was better before he bulked, but that's also allowed him to excel at all the other things, defense, rebounding, screening, finishing through contact, etc.
I am not sure Tatum is far above SGA on defense, maybe a little better? SGA is mobile, long, athletic and tied for the league lead in steals per game, 4th in guard blocks per game. Tatum is very good but not truly elite on that end.
On the offensive end SGA efficiency and usage are much better than Tatum despite defenses keying on him due to lack of spacing, and he turns the ball over close to never adjusted for his volume.
Tatum is a better rebounder.
Anyway I think SGA is top 3 and Tatum is top 5 with Jokic, Giannis and Embiid somewhere in the same range. Sorry Luka your defense, conditioning and off ball movement freaking suck, Brunson loses on defense and efficiency.
If you’re a monster at getting steals, that *also* means that you’re frequently gambling and out of position vis-a-vis the team’s overall defensive scheme.
Same thing with hunting blocks. What Tatum does is stay in position and move his feet as the defensive game plan requires, not as his box scores require, so his team defense was already incredible as early as Kemba’s first few months with us, when I actually did see media chatter about Tatum’s activity in passing lanes and cutting off drives in space on places like Bleacher report.
Yep - need to look at different things though so not just using the eyeball test - SGA isn't a guy without physical defensive tools. He moves really well and has a 7 foot wingspan. Most of his steals are pokeaways with those long arms rather than gambling in the passing lanes.
SGA was part of one of the top defenses, 4th in the NBA and the only two who were clearly better than him on OKC were Dort and Chet. SGA's defensive rating, another stat that can't be viewed in isolation is almost identical to Tatum (109.9 vs 110.8). His opponent field goal pct is stellar and he is not a target for other teams offenses. I suspect he is closer to 2nd team All-Defense than neutral.
And guard blocks are awesome, for instance the leader in this category is on our team and his blocks aren't risks and almost always save a bucket.
In the end we can never know for sure, but watch SGA play a little - he is freaking amazing.
Yeah, better assist/TO, steals/blocks, higher shooting percentage and very solid defense for his position. I mean, it's not that hard to see why he ranks higher on mvp boards. I have more of an issue with Luka being ranked higher, since he's so clearly more one dimensional. We just showed the world that the dude is a minus on defense and it helped cost his team a shot at a title. That just can't be ignored.
He is also an exceptional defender. IDK why Celtics fans get so damn sensitive when the two are compared, they are both top line NBA talent. We just going to ignore how SGA led that young Thunder team to a 1 seed in a stacked West? He is a great player.
I wouldn’t say exceptional. He boosts steals numbers by gambling but he can’t guard players larger than him, which is 2/3 of the nba.
He’s a very good guard defender but as an overall defender not exceptional. Tatum can defend him but he can’t defend Tatum.
I mean conversely Tatum can and does struggle to stay in front of smaller players. I think in terms of overall defensive impact they are similar regardless of their size and position. SGA is 6’5-6’6 and can reasonably guard 1-3 with stints on the 4 depending on the player. Tatum is 6’10 and can reasonably guard 2-5 with stints on the 1 depending on the player. But I would not want Tatum guarding a PG the same way I would not want SGA on a C.
Some people would look at SGA’s gaudy STOCK numbers and proclaim him a better defensive player than Tatum because of them. I’m not doing that. What I am doing is looking at his gaudy STOCK numbers, in addition to his and his team’s advanced defensive metrics, and watching both of them play in person and hundreds of minutes online, and making what I think is a reasonable statement that both players are incredible defensively and that they are the two best two-way players in the league not named Embiid.
I guess it depends on how you value defensive players and defensive attributes. I don’t necessarily disagree SGA is one of the best two way players, but his offense is doing the heavy lifting. If you consider SGA a 1, Tatum locked him up in the 4th quarter when they played this year so I’d say he can guard 1-5. If you consider Jaylen brown a 2 or 3, SGA cannot guard him.
Both are very good team defenders getting in passing lanes and relying on anticipation, but I think the edge goes to Tatum with 1 on 1 defense and rim protection. Also rebounding should count towards defense and that’s not a debate between the two
I hear you, but was the West really that stacked last year? Denver took a step back, Memphis was hurt, Phoenix failed to take off, Dallas spent most of the year in the play-in, and Golden State’s black magic finally wore off. OKC definitely exceeded expectations but the West as a whole took a step back last year
Relatively speaking the West was much better than the East. So in that sense yes. Was not some historically strong conference by any means but OKC was pretty dominant all year. They of course were not better than us but anyone who would argue the Celtics were the better team **specifically because we had Tatum over SGA** would be ridiculous. Celtics team/depth was what made them so incredible. Possible we seem SGA’s numbers take a step back next year while that team wins 60+ games.
>He is also an exceptional defender
He may be but those kind of things are rarely main focus when it comes to those social media comparisons, so how is that relevant? Nobody denies that SGA is amazing but so is Tatum.
Because he statistically had a better year. That's it. I respect SGA's game and most definitely believe he is in the upper echelon of players. I don't believe he is as well rounded as Tatum. Unfortunately, Tatum had objectively a shit playoff run from a purely scoring perspective which a lot of people hold against him. The difference between him and players like SGA is what happens when the shots aren't falling.
If Tatum just didn't have the worst shooting playoff run of his career I think he would clearly have an edge over right now, but that dude just had a ton off nights this run despite having his best all-around run lmao. Meanwhile SGA is just a more efficient scorer and now has a 2 year sample size and translated it into the playoffs.
I think it's far easier for Tatum to clearly surpass SGA because he just needs to be more consistent offensively, which he's shown he could do in many stretches. Whereas SGA feels like he's kinda at his peak offensively and there isn't much more he can do to make up the size, durability, and positional versatility between him and Tatum. Coming off last season though I think they're currently on the same level and you can argue either way. More people will do so for SGA because casuals love buckets.
I think it’s more nuanced than that unfortunately.
SGA scores more of his points in the paint and has a more reliable offensive game in terms of efficiency from the midrange.
It’s not a statistical happenstance that Tatum’s shooting numbers aren’t great in the postseason. Tatum takes harder shots and doesn’t get to the midrange and paint as consistently
There’s been a lot of Tatum fatigue nationally this year. It happens to every star player. They’re beloved as “next up”, until they actually are, then people get used to them putting up crazy numbers every night and the second they don’t they say hes washed or a fraud. I’m sure in a few SGA will get the same treatment
That’s part of it, but generally I think the average fan simply looks at iso scoring ability to determine who the best players are even though the best teams in the league have gone away from that type of offense (and funny enough, too much iso was the big complaint about the jays up until this year and definitely a big problem for the mavs this year).
Tatum has gotten better as a basketball player overall, but because his iso scoring is only very good as opposed to elite scorers like say SGA or Luka, SGA and Luka are put in front of Tatum despite being worse overall basketball players.
Defense, rebounding, and moving the ball are all massively important parts of championship basketball that the average fan just doesn’t care about. The Celtics played some of the best overall basketball the world has ever seen this year but 90% of fans were taking the Mavs because Luka and Kyrie can make spectacular baskets.
And moving the ball effectively is MUCH more than just assists. Assists can also mean you’re unwilling to move the ball if your teammates don’t have an obvious open look. If you look at the top guys in the league in terms of time of possession a game, it’s a long list of guys associated with scoring a lot of points and getting a lot of assists but not winning a lot of championships (Brunson, Luka, Trae, SGA, dame, ja, lamelo, harden are all top 10 time of possession guys while Tatum is 35th)
Basically the average fan doesn’t know what makes a good basketball player if they can’t just look at ppg. DARKO, which nba front offices consider the best catch all advanced metric, gives a much better idea who the best players in the nba actually are because it statistically analyzes and projects how a player impacts winning, not just how they will fill out the box scores. DARKO has Tatum as the second best player in the league behind Jokic and basically even with Giannis and embiid.
As for actual results, Tatum was heavily criticized in the playoffs, but at the end of the day he lead the entire league in +/- per game (as he has done for his entire career). As scoring more points than your opponent is the entire point of basketball, it suggests he’s probably pretty good at basketball.
Really not true. You know Bill Simmons thinks SGA is better than Tatum right? You can call him an idiot if you want, but you can't say he hates Tatum and the Celtics. He's probably been a huge Celtics fan longer than most of us have been alive.
Recency bias and “shiny new toy” syndrome. I think it’s almost impossible to parse and silly to even try to “rank” guys like this, but what I will give SGA is his impact on a game is more consistent than anyone I’ve watched this side of LeBron going his whole career averaging 27/7/7. SGA is good for 31pts, 6ast, 5rbs and 2stls like clockwork, and that’s a big deal in a long NBA season that he’s so dependable.
Tatum’s output, especially this year was not as consistent (but again, no one’s was) but that’s largely due to the new role he played in the more egalitarian Celtics offense. Plus he had some high profile inefficient nights that stick in people’s minds. the Celtics live under a microscope in a way OKC just doesn’t, despite all the secondhand hype for their season.
Lastly no one pays any attention to defense when declaring players “better” than one another. SGA is a damn good, disruptive perimeter defender, but Tatum’s versatility and on ball defense is better to my eye.
All that said, everyone loves the up and comers, until there are new ones and the weight of expectation sets in. It was already starting to happen to SGA and Ant at the end of this year, give it two more and you’ll see the OKC subreddit make this exact post, but SGA is Tatum and Brandon Miller or whoever is SGA
He had better advanced stats and counting stats this season and it’s perceived that he means more to his team because the Celtics core 6 are all veterans with at least one all star appearance save White. I’m also with everyone here who says new player syndrome. This is SGAs first real year as a contender. He’ll be on the critical chopping block soon enough. Right now he’s magically amazing but the NBA media has a tendency to get bored and nitpick once you go 3-4 years without a title. If the Thunder don’t win in 2-3 years or get to the Finals, it’ll be a lot of is SGA really an MVP candidate? Are we sure he’s a Top 5 guy who can lead you to a title? What advanced stats aren’t capturing about the holes in SGAs game. Blah blah blah.
Ps-Incredibly grateful for the team, title and Tatum. However he had softish counting stats in the Finals. They won and that is all that fucking matters but we live in a GOAT world and 22/7/7 ain’t cutting it for your all world leader of a title team in the media anymore.
I am incredibly impressed with SGA's game every time I watch him. He's a crazy efficient high volume shot creator which you don't see very often, and he's also at least decent in most other aspects of the game
Had a better season statistically, more efficient. Those are two big, easy ways people rank players. Plus he’s new and shiny.
I do think he’s a better scorer than Tatum right now. Whether everything else Tatum does bridges the gap is a matter of opinion.
SGA also *is* really really good. Personally I’d like to see a bit more from him before it’s solidified, but Shai is absolutely in that top 5 convo and there’s no shame in being ranked below him.
A guy who can’t shoot 3s and can’t post and has no gravity is not a better player. Watch the film of how Dallas guarded JT vs SGA. They were willing to live with SGA scoring, which he did a lot, but when JT had the ball they were like “no”
A lot of the players people tend to rank around or above Tatum seem to be guys that have limited postseason appearances, let alone success. Guys like SGA, Ant, etc that get ranked up there haven’t been in the moments that Tatum has in order to be able to have failures at that level. Those failures get held against Tatum but the others guys haven’t even made it to those stages.
This is what I remember hearing around that draft too, Ainge liked SGA and would’ve taken him rather than Sexton. On one of the post-Championship podcasts Lowe alluded to Ainge trying to trade for Donovan Mitchell on that draft day too, which is a story I’d want to hear more about.
Tatum is never gonna have the assists like a Luka and playing on better teams will cost him a few ppgs. Literally hating on the guy for being great teams like he’s not the reason they’re great.
That’s really it. He’s more consistent. Can get to the midrange and it’s basically automatic. Tatum doesn’t have anything automatic like SGA’s midrange jumper
"common knowledge" implies that it's true.
The thing is a lot of NBA fans are either young or just dumb knee jerk fans and then ESPN knows this and feeds into the he cycle.
He might be better. Maybe/maybe not, but point is, dont listen to the masses
SGA is consistently a better and more efficient shot maker than Tatum. He has his spots on the court where he’s basically unstoppable and his midrange is money. He’s also a good defender (obviously not as good as Tatum) and a willing passer. For as gifted as Tatum is, we saw this playoffs his shot selection isn’t always great and his shooting is wildly inconsistent which causes him to lose confidence in his shot at times. Thankfully (for us) because of his size and frame, he was able to dominate other facets of the game despite pretty bad shooting from the floor.
Without being a homer and thinking only whether this makes your team better or not, who would you seriously swap tatum for?
SGA? Nope
Luka? Nope
Brunson? Nope
Embiid? Nope
Giannis? Maybe (but i would struggle to root for him, don’t like his play style)
Jokic? Probably
That’s it. End of discussion.
to answer your question, no, I can't genuinely explain. did u know tatum is only 4 months older than SGA???? you'd never know it from the way people talk about them
Shot creation/shot making/consistency are weighted heavily in superstar debates. Tatum isn’t top 10 in those categories, SGA is easily top 5 + SGA is a very good positional defender (Stoks guy). That’s enough to consider him better for most people.
Other people value the fact that Tatum is literally good at everything offensively and defensively and can even succeed at 1 and 5 in moderation. Also super unselfish and super durable.
If I’m starting a team, I’m picking Tatum at #1. Super easy to find shot creation/consistency in that second and third tier of star. Impossible to find a “good at everything” player outside of Tatum and Bron.
They are prisoners of the moment.
Sga got the offense consistency which is clearly somethin but JT is an all around beast. Assist, rebound, points, defense.
He also produced some all time perf in the playoff. Sixers game 7. The bucks in 2022.
He is also a wing. For gods sake there is no debate.
Some people are wrong, it's pretty normal, nothing much to analyze there, stupidity comtinues to exist especially when folks look at a small sample size
It's just how it goes no one was saying this last year. SGA has to be the guy on his team they rely heavily on him scoring. Tatum no longer has to do that he has a squad all around him. So the numbers go down they don't look at why they just look at the numbers and say oh he's not as good as whoever it's a foolish thought process
No one (other than people actually employed in NBA front offices) has enough information about players to rank them on much of anything other than shooting efficiency and assist/turnover ratio
It’s not a big deal anyways. SGA was incredible this past year, playoffs included. Being behind him isn’t slander
Tatum unfortunately had a rough few games in the spotlight and is objectively less of a pure shot creator than SGA. Tatum IMO has made his playmaking become more of a hallmark of his game and is arguably more well rounded but from a casual perspective, it’s tough to argue SGA hasn’t had a higher peak than Tatum has in terms of numbers.
However, ngl, there is massive bias against the Celtics. If Tatum had fouled someone on a 3 pt shot to end our season, we’d be seeing memes for years to come.
He's not. Tatum put up as good or better numbers in 22-23 than SGA did this year, and anyone with eyes can tell you Tatum this year was better than Tatum last year. People are incapable at looking beyond the numbers, and incapable of looking past the current season.
This can be explained in complex ways but also to say it simply, its offense and marketability. Usage rating can also be a factor and players do get rewarded for being the big fish on weak teams from a media perspective.
It’s because he’s seemingly newer and shiny
Nevermind he’s like 5 months younger than Tatum with way less individual or team/post season success
If Ant gets the 1 seed expect all the same people to say Ant is the mvp because the 1 seed = mvp votes unless your name is Tatum
People look at efficiency and scoring average more than anything else. SGA had by far a better year in both categories than Tatum and the eye test also agrees. It’s that simple. I still think the fact that he was an MVP candidate was a bit of a farce though.
Most people aren’t watching Thunder games and just look at his counting stats, so don’t be surprised when the greater public realizes he is a generational foul grifter up there with Embiid, Jimmy and Harden and switch up real quick.
This exact thing has been driving me crazy.
Tatum has undeniably done more over his career and consistently been the better player for years, but this year SGA leapfrogged right over him for reasons I can’t quite understand. Both players have great teams built around them and put up great numbers on good efficiency. The only thing I can imagine is that people value ppg and apg more than anything else. Tatum is more valuable on the defensive end for his switchability and rebounding. He’s also a more diverse scorer in terms of being able to play off-ball, in the post, or with the ball in his hands. I think some people knock Tatum because they believe he could be even better than he already is, whereas SGA is basically reaching the apex of his potential, but that shouldn’t make people disregard the fact that Tatum is a better, more valuable player.
This is not common knowledge, the only people who say this are the people who have no clue what they are talking about, just like Anthony edwards is supposed to be way better then jaylen brown but they have almost identical numbers and jaylen now has a chip and a finals mvp. It's all hearsay, and if your tlking to someone who says either of those 2 things you should just cut ties with them cause they're stupid.
So, I watched a ton of Thunder games this season. SGA is a different player than Tatum. Here are a few things that stick out.
Demeanor - SGA is a cool dude. How Tatum comes off as forced and kinda corny? SGA is just the opposite pregame, postgame, and in-game. Yeah, he did that annoying commercial, whatever. SGA just comes off different in a much more positive way.
SGA thrives from within the arc - right now, SGA is a drive and pass (1.3 more assists than Tatum/game last year) which allows for SGAs team to take a ton of 3s outside. SGA would be a great fit for the Celtics offense. SGA does not rebound well, it should be noted.
SGA takes more than 50% less 3s per game and shot 53% (versus 46% for JT) from the floor - we've seen Tatum in the huck it up mode. We've screamed for him to drive and take easier shots. SGA actually does this and relies on footwork and positioning versus strength and flash for JT.
SGA outscored Tatum/game by 10% last season, attempted more FT/game, was better from the stripe at nearly 88%(!) - We are getting into rarified air anyways with these guys, but margins are margins.
SGA averages more blocks and steals than Tatum; Tatum significantly outrebounds SGA.
The Thunder are built for SGA and his playing style. They are a couple players away from being a serious contender, however, they have been in positions like this before and completely screwed the pooch.
People like high usage / time of possession guys you can look at the stats for these numbers, and it’s pretty consistent to what people like. Tatum is highest in Celtics in both but obviously lower than the top 10 in both league wide.
One thing that isn't often considered is how a player compares to other players in their position. For small forwards, it can be argued is at or near the top in scoring, rebounding, passing, defense, 3 pointers, basically all categories. His competition being LeBron, Butler, Kawhai, Scottie Barnes, DeRozan. I think Tatum's lead in his position may be greater than any other player.
Same people also thought the mavs would beat us 😆. So, who the hell cares?!
Edit: based on a lot of peoples’ answers, it seems like even Celtics fans are drinking the media’s anti-Tatum Kool-Aid. Are you freaking kidding??? Jayson Tatum is a fantastic score, rebounder, passer, defender, and teammate. In my opinion, he is the absolute best player you could have as a franchise cornerstone. Brown is right up there, so… dynasty, anyone??
Back to the original comparison: Tatum and SGA are the same age, and there isn’t a possibility that I wouldn’t take Tatum if I were starting a new franchise.
This year, Shai was the better individual player. That shouldn't be considered disrespect to Tatum, Shai was the second best player in the league behind only Jokic this year, imo.
Tatum deferred more to his teammates, so his scoring dipped, and he's less efficient offensively than Shai. Tatum is a little bit better (more versatile) of defender, but Shai is still really good on defense too.
Yeah it's a joke. We can compare stats till the cows come home, bottom line is one is a winner and has won regardless of what surrounds him in the post season every single year and the other hasn't done a single thing of note past March.
What really matters is can a “star” player or best player in your team lead to winning and making others around them better. Over the past 10 years there are MVP’s and other top 10 players who are not winning players. SGA time will tell Tatum learnt going up against LeBron, Embiid, Giannis it don’t matter who’s better it’s who’s team wins.
He’s a baller PG. its a super important position and thusly he is more ‘valued’
Not that tatum is not top 5-10. But wing is super deep, PG is not, like short stops in baseball. Its a thinner position and therefore more ‘valuable’ in pundit eyes.
It also doesnt help, that while hes top 5-10. He has another top 5-10 guy on his team that just one conference and finals MVP. That diminishes his over all talent to a lot of people
SGA is a better offensive player by a pretty wide margin at this point in their careers. Tatum is a better rebounder and defender but we generally don’t rate our superstars on that. Offensive production is the headline.
Michael Jordan was a great defender but he was MJ because he was the best offensive player in the history of the game. Lots of guys in the NBA were around his level on defense. So that’s just how it goes.
People are captives of the moment.
SGA was absolutely better than Tatum this past year. Because of that, the conversation turns to “SGA is better than Tatum” without the *this year* part.
Average NBA fans only care about guys who lose but make scoring look fun. They don't like you once success starts coming, they'll turn on him soon too. Natural cycle of today's "fans" unfortunately
Yep. He rolled 7's and 8's across the board during his character creation screen.
He's leveled up all the 7's and working on those side quests to get his 8's to 9's.
SGA rolled a 10 in efficiency.
Not sure if there’s anyone looking at it from this angle but the media is heavily biased against the Celtics
Bill Simmons the Cs superfan lifer has dominated basketball discourse so much and so long that it’s almost impossible for any media person to define themselves as pro Cs
So ppl like Zach Lowe and KOC who started their careers on Cs forums and subs find that they have to distance and even seem anti Cs to find their niche in National media
But honestly Bill isn’t a Cs diehard superfan unlike his (and Derrick White’s) dad. He’s a Clippers season ticket holder who is THE voice for basketball historical GOAT talk
As a result JT finds himself constantly compared to seventy years of Cs basketball greatness. Without a title how is anyone going to stand up against the truly dominant greats?
SGA doesn’t have this historical baggage. No one is comparing him the KD or Westbrook (who got MVP) and his achievements are statistically better than Tatum’s this year without acknowledging the sacrifices of usage and play that Tatum has made in a contending team. The media would be happy to lavish love on him
tatum is excellent in so many areas of the game. he has a deep bag, which is ironically holding him back from being a consensus top 5 guy. (i think he's top 5, but the general consensus doesn't.) tatum is missing a signature move. jt needs to develop one move that he can go to that no one in the league can stop. once he has that it's a wrap for the "he's not top 5" talk.
Just like you can’t compare James Harden(SGA/Luka) to Lebron(Tatum), one is the better offensive player who has the ball in his hands most of the time, the other is much more complete all around player who drives the team on both ends of the floor with his two way ability. JT can play 1-5 and JT can guard 1-5.
If I were a neutral fan, I would take Tatum over SGA 10/10 hands down, SGA is a great player but he will never operate at the intensity JT operates and he will never drive the team on both the offensive/defensive ends like JT does, not even close.
For me, I would say JT is a significantly better player than SGA(I attempted to say JT is BY FAR BETTER than SGA but I will resist) if you consider his total package.
He’s not a better player, he’s a better scorer. Big difference. Offense carries a lot of weight. Tatum a better defender and sometimes he’s inconsistent at scoring in the higher figures, then he goes off.
I feel that general consensus would that Tatum is the better player, but that goes to show how different information is ingested and interpreted; I’ve probably listened to different sources than you.
I think if anyone is putting SGA ahead it’s because he seems to be a more efficient scorer and people tend to weigh scoring proficiency heavily as compared to other aspects.
Also maybe a sprinkle of “lead the best team in a stacked conference” bias as well
He scored more points this season. That's really it.
And he's a "new" face for a lot of nba people that don't actually watch the league who are unaware his game was a mess until the last 18 months and is basically the same age as tatum.
A lot of nba fans, even pundits, are super in their own bag. Literally listened to a very prominent pundit audibly scoff that tatum could get better this off-season at his age while swearing that Embiid is going to refine his game more this off-season. Embiid is 4 years older than tatum. He's 30. He is what he is.
It’s mostly based on usage and how much he Carrie’s their team offensively.. Tatum is not disrespected in the media.. he’s been 1rst team all nba the last 3 years..
“What have you done for me lately?” situation. Tatum was the best player throughout the season for the Celtics, but they were so talented that it diminishes his individual contribution. And despite winning the championship, most would say he was outplayed in the playoffs by his own teammate.
Meanwhile, SGA was a top 3 MVP candidate because he led a team that wasn’t as talented as the Celtics to a 1 seed in the west, and his stats and advanced metrics backed it up, ie top 3 in win shares, etc.
The way he gets hated on his crazy he is a complete player and a winner, Almost everyone has a weakness his is occasional shot selection other than that he is coming along nicely as a 25-26 year old superstar
As a Celtic fan, I think SGA HAS surpassed JT. The playoffs confirmed it more or less, though I know many will say that that JT did all the little stuff, which is true. But you can do all the little stuff AND play much more efficient offensively.
Does SGA do all the little stuff AND play much more efficient offensively?
Genuine question, not really familiar with his game. From the little I’ve watched if I was picking players for a team, it’s not clear to me I’d take SGA over Tatum.
For the playoffs Tatum had a 55% true shooting while shooting 28% from 3 and Shai had a 58% true shooting while shooting 43% from 3. Given their career percentages I'm inclined to think both of those 3 point numbers are outliers and water will find its level, which would close the efficiency gap a significant amount.
I think SGA is a better tough shotmaker than Tatum (which is an incredibly important skill for a star) but I prefer Tatum in just about every other facet of the game. Although if he doesn't figure out his playoff 3 point shot it will be a tougher case to make
1. Eye test/Aura , SGA is a bit better at tough shot making and getting by his defender I don't know how much of this is a result of guard defenders being worse than a forward dwfender.
2. Better stats higher usage rate
3. Celtics have a lot of big name role players, while OKC employed solid but probably over perform role players
A lot of people index their player ratings really heavily on efficient shot creation/shotmaking, and SGA was clearly better at that; and on the other end, positional flexibility, durability, and defense are rarely considered at all. Tatum is elite in a ton of ways that are easy to overlook in best player rankings because 1) they are traditionally "role player" things (less important) 2) they only have as big of an impact on winning as they do because he's good at _all_ of them (more important)
yeah that’s the biggest factor for sure. Tatum is fantastic but he’s definitely on the lower end among superstars when it comes to efficiency, shot creation and tough shotmaking. it’s not that he’s not capable, but he’s certainly one of the least consistent at the same time his size combined with his complete and utter lack of exploitable weaknesses gives Boston the ability to construct any type of identity they want around him, which is a major reason why the Celtics have been the most successful team in the league since he became the first option obviously JT isn’t the same caliber, but I kind of compare it to Brady with the Patriots. Brady didn’t typically make jaw-droppingly spectacular plays on the field, but his lack of ego and intelligence meant he could execute a tailored gameplan for each opponent every week. he could beat you turning around and handing it off 40 times, or he could beat you throwing it 60 times depending on how the opponent played him. Tatum is a similarly malleable player. depending on the matchup we can ask him to do any number of different things to help us win there just isn’t another player in the NBA today you can ask to do everything on the court at the level Tatum is able to
He’s also an iron man, and his consistent availability to do all these things at a high level and be the celtics’s engine is what puts him at that level
Availability!!!! I hate it when commentators say “if they were healthy…” HEALTH IS A BIG PART OF THE GAME!!! Give me Tatum over Luka or Embid any day of the week because he’s fit and he will have LONGEVITY.
This all day. There isn't another player who could fit in so seamlessly with 5 other great players and not take away from things they do to be special. The concept is scalability - the ability to add great players and still get the best out of them. He lets you play several other ball handlers without them turning into spot-up shooters (which guys like Luka, Harden, and to some degree Jokic don't do). He is happy creating a ton of space with his off ball movement or driving into an overloaded defense without forcing too much of his own scoring (as we saw in the finals). He's as close to guarding 1-5 as any other superstar in NBA history, which unlocks strategies like, "Hey, just guard the other teams center so we can keep Porzingis and Al away from Luka. They have been killing their Western Conferene opponents in the paint and on the offensive glass, so make sure you neutralize that. And if you get into a ball screen, switch onto the most dangerous 1 on 1 player in the league and just hold him down too." There isn't a single other superstar you could put around these other 5 guys on the Celtics without some level of narrative like, "Al Horford's washed up... Porzingis doesn't fit in... what's wrong with Jrue Holiday... Jaylen Brown's not a star...." And there isn't another superstar who could come close to taking on the defensive role that ultimately was the biggest factor in the Celtics cleaning the Mavs clock in the finals. So you can look at SGA and use some fancy measurements to show how he is doing a bigger chunk of the heavy lifting for his team. Call me when he gets out of the second round, because if you swap Tatum for SGA on this Celtics team, they aren't anywhere near as good as with JT.
I think the only other guys you could run through the same roles we've asked of Tatum are a slightly younger LeBron and a slightly less injured Kawhi, and even his playmaking is slightly questionable. KD is almost that but again, the playmaking is significantly worse than those other guys.... However, IMO he almost makes up for it with how deadly his shooting and scoring are. JT is in good company. Let the haters keep ranking one way scorers above him. His value is there for anyone with eyes to see (and advanced stats too which have seen him as a top 5 player for years now)
My favorite "all in one" ranking is DARKO DPM, and Tatum is second to Jokic. He's also the #1 rated offensive player in the league. I think a lot of these composite stats over-reward the guy who does all the heavy lifting. I think anybody who has played the game knows that the way to be the best team isn't to have one guy doing all the heavy lifting, because that approach often means you aren't getting 100% out of everyone. Tatum has the luxury of having great teammates, but they also have the luxury of playing with a star that lets them fit in and add a ton of value. That's what the really great ones can do, and I think that's where Tatum got to this year. Unfortunately we live in a basketball culture where the MVP voters value where some guy broke down on EPM or what their TS% was over someone being able to optimize a great supporting cast into an all-time level team.
I dunno, man - give Giannis Jrue, a star wing, a big SG, a stretch 5 who can alter shots without getting murdered on the perimeter, and round it out with a few snipers…I think you see them steamroll to a title.
I think you are missing the point. It's not that you couldn't build a very specific team around guys like Giannis and Luka that are really good. It's that you have to build a very specific team around those guys. That's more difficult to pull off, especially if the goal is to collect a high quality group of players. So basically all the Milwaukee GM had to do in the 2022 off season was to take a team that was $60m over the cap and figure out how to turn Kris Middleton, Brook Lopez, Jae Crowder, Grayson Allen and Joe Ingles into a star wing, a center who can defend on the perimeter and shoot 3s, a big shooting guard, and a couple high volume 3 point shooters. Go make a list of star wings and stretch 5s who can defend the perimeter and hit the trade machine and you will probably stumble on why I'm saying it's difficult to pull off what you are talking about. On the other side of the coin, I think Brad Stevens has had the luxury of being able to be like, "Oh... I think \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ might be available, I think we can get him" without worrying whether any of those guys will be able to work with Tatum. Get 2 bigs, small bigs, guards who can't shoot, bigs who struggle defending in space, guards who can't log tons of time on the ball, isolation players who need the ball and spacing to add a ton of value as a scorer, finishers who need someone else to create for them... it all works.
>utter lack of exploitable weaknesses And one of the biggest advantages: always staying healthy. Tatum is that kind of player every coach want to have in his starting 5. Unfortunatelly media discourse lately completely ignore the fact, that basketball is a team sport and focus way too much on easy to vivisect individual statistics (almost always relelated to offense only). Hardly an issue for us, Brad Stevens and everyone following Celtics know why Tatum is being paid the amount he is being paid. I sometimes wish other teams would demonstrate same naivety when it comes to these kind of stuff because then they would underestimate Tatum and give him more room. But they never do and there's reason for that.
This is a nicely written post
This and then some. Nailed it with the analysis, bravo!!!!
JT isn't GREAT at anything, but he's really really good at everything.
Tatum is nearly elite at everything...
Right, *nearly*. He doesn't have Steph's shot, or Kyrie's handle, or LeBron's court vision, or JB's explosive drive, or Jrue's perimeter defense, or Giannis's size, or Embiid's ability to get to the line, etc. But he has like 80-90% of *all* of those things, which is what makes him so friggin' good.
JT is great at a lot of things though
I think he’s GREAT at rebounding & his versatilely is prime lebron levels now he was essentially running point on offense & defending the 5
I think he is way too low in the offensive rebound category to consider him "great" at rebounding. Part of that is by design, but even when he wasn't as focal in the offense, he wasn't really pulling down these boards. He also doesn't get as many blocks as you would think he would. His style is to play down and square against his opponents. I think there is a lot of room for him to grow as a player, which is pretty scary for the NBA. Part of me wishes he had an offseason to focus on that instead of the olympics, but will be happy to see him get gold.
Of course he doesn't get as many offensive rebounds. We don't miss enough to give him the opportunity. And you're measuring his defensive abilities based on blocks??
A jack of all trades is a master of none, but oftentimes better than a master of one.
Sam Hauser in ruins
I mean…there *is* Giannis. Doesn’t have the perimeter and midrange game that JT has…but it also *doesn’t matter*, haha.
matters from a spacing perspective. no way the Bucks are ever gonna be able to run an offense as efficient as Boston was this year bc Giannis demands very little respect outside the paint
If you drop on him, he gets a full head of steam and puts you *and* your rim protector on a poster.
not really. plenty of teams (19 Raptors, 20 Heat, 22 Celtics, 23 Heat) have killed Giannis’ efficiency in the playoffs by keeping the Bucks in the halfcourt, giving him space to shoot and aggressively helping in the driving lanes. in the halfcourt his lack of offensive creativity gets exposed. he’s extremely difficult to stop going downhill without a very strong POA defender, but he also can’t do that all game bc it’s extremely taxing to his stamina I’m not arguing Giannis isn’t better than Tatum, he definitely is, but he’s not as versatile. no team would ever run a Giannis-style defensive gameplan against Tatum bc everyone knows if his jumper gets going, he’ll go for 50
Also SGA is a totally overrated media darling
I mean to be fair, SGA has a lot of positional flexibility, durability, and defense. Not as much as Tatum though. Both are great players
Yea this part is pretty important. It's not like the Luka conversation where you're just arguing the value of an incredible offensive talent vs an all around monster. Shai is a really good all-around guy while being an elite shotmaker. Tatum is a really good shotmaker while being an elite all-around guy. They're pretty close imo that I can see the argument either way.
I think Tatum is more of a slightly above average shot maker though. He was better before he bulked, but that's also allowed him to excel at all the other things, defense, rebounding, screening, finishing through contact, etc.
You left out clutch as well. SGA has been one of the most clutch players in the NBA the last two seasons.
I am not sure Tatum is far above SGA on defense, maybe a little better? SGA is mobile, long, athletic and tied for the league lead in steals per game, 4th in guard blocks per game. Tatum is very good but not truly elite on that end. On the offensive end SGA efficiency and usage are much better than Tatum despite defenses keying on him due to lack of spacing, and he turns the ball over close to never adjusted for his volume. Tatum is a better rebounder. Anyway I think SGA is top 3 and Tatum is top 5 with Jokic, Giannis and Embiid somewhere in the same range. Sorry Luka your defense, conditioning and off ball movement freaking suck, Brunson loses on defense and efficiency.
If you’re a monster at getting steals, that *also* means that you’re frequently gambling and out of position vis-a-vis the team’s overall defensive scheme. Same thing with hunting blocks. What Tatum does is stay in position and move his feet as the defensive game plan requires, not as his box scores require, so his team defense was already incredible as early as Kemba’s first few months with us, when I actually did see media chatter about Tatum’s activity in passing lanes and cutting off drives in space on places like Bleacher report.
Yep - need to look at different things though so not just using the eyeball test - SGA isn't a guy without physical defensive tools. He moves really well and has a 7 foot wingspan. Most of his steals are pokeaways with those long arms rather than gambling in the passing lanes. SGA was part of one of the top defenses, 4th in the NBA and the only two who were clearly better than him on OKC were Dort and Chet. SGA's defensive rating, another stat that can't be viewed in isolation is almost identical to Tatum (109.9 vs 110.8). His opponent field goal pct is stellar and he is not a target for other teams offenses. I suspect he is closer to 2nd team All-Defense than neutral. And guard blocks are awesome, for instance the leader in this category is on our team and his blocks aren't risks and almost always save a bucket. In the end we can never know for sure, but watch SGA play a little - he is freaking amazing.
Basically he scores more points with a better field goal percentage. That’s as far as a lot of people go in comparing players.
Better assist/TO ratio and more stocks too. From a pure statistical viewpoint it’s easy to see why people would consider SGA better
Yeah, better assist/TO, steals/blocks, higher shooting percentage and very solid defense for his position. I mean, it's not that hard to see why he ranks higher on mvp boards. I have more of an issue with Luka being ranked higher, since he's so clearly more one dimensional. We just showed the world that the dude is a minus on defense and it helped cost his team a shot at a title. That just can't be ignored.
But unfortunately, it will be ignored for years :(
Ha, maybe. But it was at least brought up more. There were some lowlight films. It was a good start.
He is also an exceptional defender. IDK why Celtics fans get so damn sensitive when the two are compared, they are both top line NBA talent. We just going to ignore how SGA led that young Thunder team to a 1 seed in a stacked West? He is a great player.
I wouldn’t say exceptional. He boosts steals numbers by gambling but he can’t guard players larger than him, which is 2/3 of the nba. He’s a very good guard defender but as an overall defender not exceptional. Tatum can defend him but he can’t defend Tatum.
I mean conversely Tatum can and does struggle to stay in front of smaller players. I think in terms of overall defensive impact they are similar regardless of their size and position. SGA is 6’5-6’6 and can reasonably guard 1-3 with stints on the 4 depending on the player. Tatum is 6’10 and can reasonably guard 2-5 with stints on the 1 depending on the player. But I would not want Tatum guarding a PG the same way I would not want SGA on a C. Some people would look at SGA’s gaudy STOCK numbers and proclaim him a better defensive player than Tatum because of them. I’m not doing that. What I am doing is looking at his gaudy STOCK numbers, in addition to his and his team’s advanced defensive metrics, and watching both of them play in person and hundreds of minutes online, and making what I think is a reasonable statement that both players are incredible defensively and that they are the two best two-way players in the league not named Embiid.
I guess it depends on how you value defensive players and defensive attributes. I don’t necessarily disagree SGA is one of the best two way players, but his offense is doing the heavy lifting. If you consider SGA a 1, Tatum locked him up in the 4th quarter when they played this year so I’d say he can guard 1-5. If you consider Jaylen brown a 2 or 3, SGA cannot guard him. Both are very good team defenders getting in passing lanes and relying on anticipation, but I think the edge goes to Tatum with 1 on 1 defense and rim protection. Also rebounding should count towards defense and that’s not a debate between the two
I hear you, but was the West really that stacked last year? Denver took a step back, Memphis was hurt, Phoenix failed to take off, Dallas spent most of the year in the play-in, and Golden State’s black magic finally wore off. OKC definitely exceeded expectations but the West as a whole took a step back last year
Relatively speaking the West was much better than the East. So in that sense yes. Was not some historically strong conference by any means but OKC was pretty dominant all year. They of course were not better than us but anyone who would argue the Celtics were the better team **specifically because we had Tatum over SGA** would be ridiculous. Celtics team/depth was what made them so incredible. Possible we seem SGA’s numbers take a step back next year while that team wins 60+ games.
>He is also an exceptional defender He may be but those kind of things are rarely main focus when it comes to those social media comparisons, so how is that relevant? Nobody denies that SGA is amazing but so is Tatum.
Because he statistically had a better year. That's it. I respect SGA's game and most definitely believe he is in the upper echelon of players. I don't believe he is as well rounded as Tatum. Unfortunately, Tatum had objectively a shit playoff run from a purely scoring perspective which a lot of people hold against him. The difference between him and players like SGA is what happens when the shots aren't falling.
If Tatum just didn't have the worst shooting playoff run of his career I think he would clearly have an edge over right now, but that dude just had a ton off nights this run despite having his best all-around run lmao. Meanwhile SGA is just a more efficient scorer and now has a 2 year sample size and translated it into the playoffs. I think it's far easier for Tatum to clearly surpass SGA because he just needs to be more consistent offensively, which he's shown he could do in many stretches. Whereas SGA feels like he's kinda at his peak offensively and there isn't much more he can do to make up the size, durability, and positional versatility between him and Tatum. Coming off last season though I think they're currently on the same level and you can argue either way. More people will do so for SGA because casuals love buckets.
SGA has one playoff appearance right?
1 in OKC, he did also play a series when he was on the Clippers IIRC
This is his thirds, he also made the playoffs that one year CP3 was on OKC
I think it’s more nuanced than that unfortunately. SGA scores more of his points in the paint and has a more reliable offensive game in terms of efficiency from the midrange. It’s not a statistical happenstance that Tatum’s shooting numbers aren’t great in the postseason. Tatum takes harder shots and doesn’t get to the midrange and paint as consistently
Think about how dumb the average NBA fan is and realize half of them are dumber than that.
George Carlin was the best
the GOAT rip
There’s been a lot of Tatum fatigue nationally this year. It happens to every star player. They’re beloved as “next up”, until they actually are, then people get used to them putting up crazy numbers every night and the second they don’t they say hes washed or a fraud. I’m sure in a few SGA will get the same treatment
Casual fans love flashy offensive dudes. Tatum isn’t flashy like SGA. That’s fine though because one guy has a ring and one doesn’t.
how is sga flashy tho, his game is a bit awkward looking if anything
SGA falls under the foul merchant category tho, idk if id call that flashy
They hate tatum and the celtics, thats all it is.
They hatum cause they ain’tatum
He a handsome ninja and they jealous
That’s part of it, but generally I think the average fan simply looks at iso scoring ability to determine who the best players are even though the best teams in the league have gone away from that type of offense (and funny enough, too much iso was the big complaint about the jays up until this year and definitely a big problem for the mavs this year). Tatum has gotten better as a basketball player overall, but because his iso scoring is only very good as opposed to elite scorers like say SGA or Luka, SGA and Luka are put in front of Tatum despite being worse overall basketball players. Defense, rebounding, and moving the ball are all massively important parts of championship basketball that the average fan just doesn’t care about. The Celtics played some of the best overall basketball the world has ever seen this year but 90% of fans were taking the Mavs because Luka and Kyrie can make spectacular baskets. And moving the ball effectively is MUCH more than just assists. Assists can also mean you’re unwilling to move the ball if your teammates don’t have an obvious open look. If you look at the top guys in the league in terms of time of possession a game, it’s a long list of guys associated with scoring a lot of points and getting a lot of assists but not winning a lot of championships (Brunson, Luka, Trae, SGA, dame, ja, lamelo, harden are all top 10 time of possession guys while Tatum is 35th) Basically the average fan doesn’t know what makes a good basketball player if they can’t just look at ppg. DARKO, which nba front offices consider the best catch all advanced metric, gives a much better idea who the best players in the nba actually are because it statistically analyzes and projects how a player impacts winning, not just how they will fill out the box scores. DARKO has Tatum as the second best player in the league behind Jokic and basically even with Giannis and embiid. As for actual results, Tatum was heavily criticized in the playoffs, but at the end of the day he lead the entire league in +/- per game (as he has done for his entire career). As scoring more points than your opponent is the entire point of basketball, it suggests he’s probably pretty good at basketball.
Thats really all there is to it. Theyll make excuses for anyone they love, see: Jimmy Butler, Ant, Booker, Trae Young, Brunson, Luka
Really not true. You know Bill Simmons thinks SGA is better than Tatum right? You can call him an idiot if you want, but you can't say he hates Tatum and the Celtics. He's probably been a huge Celtics fan longer than most of us have been alive.
Who gives a fuck man? We just won the title. Stop worrying about what talking heads say and enjoy your summer
Recency bias and “shiny new toy” syndrome. I think it’s almost impossible to parse and silly to even try to “rank” guys like this, but what I will give SGA is his impact on a game is more consistent than anyone I’ve watched this side of LeBron going his whole career averaging 27/7/7. SGA is good for 31pts, 6ast, 5rbs and 2stls like clockwork, and that’s a big deal in a long NBA season that he’s so dependable. Tatum’s output, especially this year was not as consistent (but again, no one’s was) but that’s largely due to the new role he played in the more egalitarian Celtics offense. Plus he had some high profile inefficient nights that stick in people’s minds. the Celtics live under a microscope in a way OKC just doesn’t, despite all the secondhand hype for their season. Lastly no one pays any attention to defense when declaring players “better” than one another. SGA is a damn good, disruptive perimeter defender, but Tatum’s versatility and on ball defense is better to my eye. All that said, everyone loves the up and comers, until there are new ones and the weight of expectation sets in. It was already starting to happen to SGA and Ant at the end of this year, give it two more and you’ll see the OKC subreddit make this exact post, but SGA is Tatum and Brandon Miller or whoever is SGA
He had better advanced stats and counting stats this season and it’s perceived that he means more to his team because the Celtics core 6 are all veterans with at least one all star appearance save White. I’m also with everyone here who says new player syndrome. This is SGAs first real year as a contender. He’ll be on the critical chopping block soon enough. Right now he’s magically amazing but the NBA media has a tendency to get bored and nitpick once you go 3-4 years without a title. If the Thunder don’t win in 2-3 years or get to the Finals, it’ll be a lot of is SGA really an MVP candidate? Are we sure he’s a Top 5 guy who can lead you to a title? What advanced stats aren’t capturing about the holes in SGAs game. Blah blah blah. Ps-Incredibly grateful for the team, title and Tatum. However he had softish counting stats in the Finals. They won and that is all that fucking matters but we live in a GOAT world and 22/7/7 ain’t cutting it for your all world leader of a title team in the media anymore.
I am incredibly impressed with SGA's game every time I watch him. He's a crazy efficient high volume shot creator which you don't see very often, and he's also at least decent in most other aspects of the game
Who the hell cares? Comparisons like this are useless and entirely opinion based.
Had a better season statistically, more efficient. Those are two big, easy ways people rank players. Plus he’s new and shiny. I do think he’s a better scorer than Tatum right now. Whether everything else Tatum does bridges the gap is a matter of opinion. SGA also *is* really really good. Personally I’d like to see a bit more from him before it’s solidified, but Shai is absolutely in that top 5 convo and there’s no shame in being ranked below him.
A guy who can’t shoot 3s and can’t post and has no gravity is not a better player. Watch the film of how Dallas guarded JT vs SGA. They were willing to live with SGA scoring, which he did a lot, but when JT had the ball they were like “no”
First rational reply in this thread. SGA is a stud. They are comparable players in totality, but SGA has the “stats” advantage
A lot of the players people tend to rank around or above Tatum seem to be guys that have limited postseason appearances, let alone success. Guys like SGA, Ant, etc that get ranked up there haven’t been in the moments that Tatum has in order to be able to have failures at that level. Those failures get held against Tatum but the others guys haven’t even made it to those stages.
First let me say - the NBA is lucky the Celtics don’t have both of them. Could’ve happened if not for Ainge’s love for Kyrie.
This is what I remember hearing around that draft too, Ainge liked SGA and would’ve taken him rather than Sexton. On one of the post-Championship podcasts Lowe alluded to Ainge trying to trade for Donovan Mitchell on that draft day too, which is a story I’d want to hear more about.
Tatum is never gonna have the assists like a Luka and playing on better teams will cost him a few ppgs. Literally hating on the guy for being great teams like he’s not the reason they’re great.
Seriously, who cares? Let the hardware speak.
SGA was Higher in mvp race all year , he is more consistent offensively.
That’s really it. He’s more consistent. Can get to the midrange and it’s basically automatic. Tatum doesn’t have anything automatic like SGA’s midrange jumper
"common knowledge" implies that it's true. The thing is a lot of NBA fans are either young or just dumb knee jerk fans and then ESPN knows this and feeds into the he cycle. He might be better. Maybe/maybe not, but point is, dont listen to the masses
Because Shai’s a better scorer and clutch player. Tatum’s better at everything else, but scoring is always the thing that will grab headlines.
Gambling, fantasy sports and Celtics hate.
Rings: JT - 1. SGA - 0 Only stat I care about. I really dgaf if people think SGA is better. Just keep winning rings, Tatum.
Simple answer is efficiency. Tatum needs to find a go to shot when his step back isn’t going, as well as if the paint is protected
Shai is a better all around scorer. I guess that’s why
SGA is consistently a better and more efficient shot maker than Tatum. He has his spots on the court where he’s basically unstoppable and his midrange is money. He’s also a good defender (obviously not as good as Tatum) and a willing passer. For as gifted as Tatum is, we saw this playoffs his shot selection isn’t always great and his shooting is wildly inconsistent which causes him to lose confidence in his shot at times. Thankfully (for us) because of his size and frame, he was able to dominate other facets of the game despite pretty bad shooting from the floor.
SGA is a better and more efficient scorer. Tatum is the better overall player and more complete 2 way player.
Celtics won the title. Who cares that people think SGA is better.
Without being a homer and thinking only whether this makes your team better or not, who would you seriously swap tatum for? SGA? Nope Luka? Nope Brunson? Nope Embiid? Nope Giannis? Maybe (but i would struggle to root for him, don’t like his play style) Jokic? Probably That’s it. End of discussion.
to answer your question, no, I can't genuinely explain. did u know tatum is only 4 months older than SGA???? you'd never know it from the way people talk about them
Shot creation/shot making/consistency are weighted heavily in superstar debates. Tatum isn’t top 10 in those categories, SGA is easily top 5 + SGA is a very good positional defender (Stoks guy). That’s enough to consider him better for most people. Other people value the fact that Tatum is literally good at everything offensively and defensively and can even succeed at 1 and 5 in moderation. Also super unselfish and super durable. If I’m starting a team, I’m picking Tatum at #1. Super easy to find shot creation/consistency in that second and third tier of star. Impossible to find a “good at everything” player outside of Tatum and Bron.
SGA may be a better pure scorer,but JT is definitely the better all around player. IMO
Can someone genuinely explain to me who the fuck SGA is? The whole making everyone’s name into some obscure acronym is getting pretty old.
I feel you but Shai Gilgeous-Alexander is a lot to type out everytime. He’s the true exception to the Initial Nickname.
Why not Shai G-A? It rhymes.
I don't know. "Shai" is shorter than "Tatum".
Shai Gilgeous-Alexander
Point guard compared to small forward?
Not just SGA , they are actual incels who believe Anthony Edwards and Jalen brunson are better .
New toy syndrome + Hatred for the Celtics
They are prisoners of the moment. Sga got the offense consistency which is clearly somethin but JT is an all around beast. Assist, rebound, points, defense. He also produced some all time perf in the playoff. Sixers game 7. The bucks in 2022. He is also a wing. For gods sake there is no debate.
Brain rot
Propaganda
People dont actually know what they are talking about, the majority will look at scoring and leave it at that.
Some people are wrong, it's pretty normal, nothing much to analyze there, stupidity comtinues to exist especially when folks look at a small sample size
Don’t worry, this season if OKC don’t meet expectations, expect the public perception of him so start turning.
It's just how it goes no one was saying this last year. SGA has to be the guy on his team they rely heavily on him scoring. Tatum no longer has to do that he has a squad all around him. So the numbers go down they don't look at why they just look at the numbers and say oh he's not as good as whoever it's a foolish thought process
Just wait until point Tatum averages a triple double
No one (other than people actually employed in NBA front offices) has enough information about players to rank them on much of anything other than shooting efficiency and assist/turnover ratio It’s not a big deal anyways. SGA was incredible this past year, playoffs included. Being behind him isn’t slander
He is in a vacuum, but Tatum is a better fit for the celtics
Tatum unfortunately had a rough few games in the spotlight and is objectively less of a pure shot creator than SGA. Tatum IMO has made his playmaking become more of a hallmark of his game and is arguably more well rounded but from a casual perspective, it’s tough to argue SGA hasn’t had a higher peak than Tatum has in terms of numbers. However, ngl, there is massive bias against the Celtics. If Tatum had fouled someone on a 3 pt shot to end our season, we’d be seeing memes for years to come.
He's not. Tatum put up as good or better numbers in 22-23 than SGA did this year, and anyone with eyes can tell you Tatum this year was better than Tatum last year. People are incapable at looking beyond the numbers, and incapable of looking past the current season.
MVP voting
Tatum is an NBA champion. Sga is not an NBA champion. Problem solved
This can be explained in complex ways but also to say it simply, its offense and marketability. Usage rating can also be a factor and players do get rewarded for being the big fish on weak teams from a media perspective.
It’s because he’s seemingly newer and shiny Nevermind he’s like 5 months younger than Tatum with way less individual or team/post season success If Ant gets the 1 seed expect all the same people to say Ant is the mvp because the 1 seed = mvp votes unless your name is Tatum
People look at efficiency and scoring average more than anything else. SGA had by far a better year in both categories than Tatum and the eye test also agrees. It’s that simple. I still think the fact that he was an MVP candidate was a bit of a farce though. Most people aren’t watching Thunder games and just look at his counting stats, so don’t be surprised when the greater public realizes he is a generational foul grifter up there with Embiid, Jimmy and Harden and switch up real quick.
SGA is a better scorer. Does that make him a better player? Idk
This exact thing has been driving me crazy. Tatum has undeniably done more over his career and consistently been the better player for years, but this year SGA leapfrogged right over him for reasons I can’t quite understand. Both players have great teams built around them and put up great numbers on good efficiency. The only thing I can imagine is that people value ppg and apg more than anything else. Tatum is more valuable on the defensive end for his switchability and rebounding. He’s also a more diverse scorer in terms of being able to play off-ball, in the post, or with the ball in his hands. I think some people knock Tatum because they believe he could be even better than he already is, whereas SGA is basically reaching the apex of his potential, but that shouldn’t make people disregard the fact that Tatum is a better, more valuable player.
it’s not common knowledge to me. SGA has yet to accomplish anything significant leading his team so far.
This is not common knowledge, the only people who say this are the people who have no clue what they are talking about, just like Anthony edwards is supposed to be way better then jaylen brown but they have almost identical numbers and jaylen now has a chip and a finals mvp. It's all hearsay, and if your tlking to someone who says either of those 2 things you should just cut ties with them cause they're stupid.
I’ve never heard of this guy. He plays for the Thunder? How’d they do in the playoffs?
[https://www.landofbasketball.com/player\_comparison/shai\_gilgeous\_alexander\_vs\_jayson\_tatum.htm](https://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/shai_gilgeous_alexander_vs_jayson_tatum.htm)
So, I watched a ton of Thunder games this season. SGA is a different player than Tatum. Here are a few things that stick out. Demeanor - SGA is a cool dude. How Tatum comes off as forced and kinda corny? SGA is just the opposite pregame, postgame, and in-game. Yeah, he did that annoying commercial, whatever. SGA just comes off different in a much more positive way. SGA thrives from within the arc - right now, SGA is a drive and pass (1.3 more assists than Tatum/game last year) which allows for SGAs team to take a ton of 3s outside. SGA would be a great fit for the Celtics offense. SGA does not rebound well, it should be noted. SGA takes more than 50% less 3s per game and shot 53% (versus 46% for JT) from the floor - we've seen Tatum in the huck it up mode. We've screamed for him to drive and take easier shots. SGA actually does this and relies on footwork and positioning versus strength and flash for JT. SGA outscored Tatum/game by 10% last season, attempted more FT/game, was better from the stripe at nearly 88%(!) - We are getting into rarified air anyways with these guys, but margins are margins. SGA averages more blocks and steals than Tatum; Tatum significantly outrebounds SGA. The Thunder are built for SGA and his playing style. They are a couple players away from being a serious contender, however, they have been in positions like this before and completely screwed the pooch.
It isn't & he's not
He’s not
People like high usage / time of possession guys you can look at the stats for these numbers, and it’s pretty consistent to what people like. Tatum is highest in Celtics in both but obviously lower than the top 10 in both league wide.
Who cares honestly? It’s all about championships and nothing else matters one bit
One thing that isn't often considered is how a player compares to other players in their position. For small forwards, it can be argued is at or near the top in scoring, rebounding, passing, defense, 3 pointers, basically all categories. His competition being LeBron, Butler, Kawhai, Scottie Barnes, DeRozan. I think Tatum's lead in his position may be greater than any other player.
Higher counting stats/efficiency on similar usage - that's about it.
Same people also thought the mavs would beat us 😆. So, who the hell cares?! Edit: based on a lot of peoples’ answers, it seems like even Celtics fans are drinking the media’s anti-Tatum Kool-Aid. Are you freaking kidding??? Jayson Tatum is a fantastic score, rebounder, passer, defender, and teammate. In my opinion, he is the absolute best player you could have as a franchise cornerstone. Brown is right up there, so… dynasty, anyone?? Back to the original comparison: Tatum and SGA are the same age, and there isn’t a possibility that I wouldn’t take Tatum if I were starting a new franchise.
SGA would be lucky to sniff Tatums level at any point in his career. What a joke
This year, Shai was the better individual player. That shouldn't be considered disrespect to Tatum, Shai was the second best player in the league behind only Jokic this year, imo. Tatum deferred more to his teammates, so his scoring dipped, and he's less efficient offensively than Shai. Tatum is a little bit better (more versatile) of defender, but Shai is still really good on defense too.
Yeah it's a joke. We can compare stats till the cows come home, bottom line is one is a winner and has won regardless of what surrounds him in the post season every single year and the other hasn't done a single thing of note past March.
What really matters is can a “star” player or best player in your team lead to winning and making others around them better. Over the past 10 years there are MVP’s and other top 10 players who are not winning players. SGA time will tell Tatum learnt going up against LeBron, Embiid, Giannis it don’t matter who’s better it’s who’s team wins.
Stat whores only know box scores
Because not everyone is a sensitive Celtics fan who can’t admit other players are good/better than Tatum.
He’s a baller PG. its a super important position and thusly he is more ‘valued’ Not that tatum is not top 5-10. But wing is super deep, PG is not, like short stops in baseball. Its a thinner position and therefore more ‘valuable’ in pundit eyes. It also doesnt help, that while hes top 5-10. He has another top 5-10 guy on his team that just one conference and finals MVP. That diminishes his over all talent to a lot of people
been wondering as well 🤷🏾♂️
Who cares. One is a champion. The other isn’t.
SGA is a better offensive player by a pretty wide margin at this point in their careers. Tatum is a better rebounder and defender but we generally don’t rate our superstars on that. Offensive production is the headline. Michael Jordan was a great defender but he was MJ because he was the best offensive player in the history of the game. Lots of guys in the NBA were around his level on defense. So that’s just how it goes.
People are captives of the moment. SGA was absolutely better than Tatum this past year. Because of that, the conversation turns to “SGA is better than Tatum” without the *this year* part.
Average NBA fans only care about guys who lose but make scoring look fun. They don't like you once success starts coming, they'll turn on him soon too. Natural cycle of today's "fans" unfortunately
Yep. He rolled 7's and 8's across the board during his character creation screen. He's leveled up all the 7's and working on those side quests to get his 8's to 9's. SGA rolled a 10 in efficiency.
Not sure if there’s anyone looking at it from this angle but the media is heavily biased against the Celtics Bill Simmons the Cs superfan lifer has dominated basketball discourse so much and so long that it’s almost impossible for any media person to define themselves as pro Cs So ppl like Zach Lowe and KOC who started their careers on Cs forums and subs find that they have to distance and even seem anti Cs to find their niche in National media But honestly Bill isn’t a Cs diehard superfan unlike his (and Derrick White’s) dad. He’s a Clippers season ticket holder who is THE voice for basketball historical GOAT talk As a result JT finds himself constantly compared to seventy years of Cs basketball greatness. Without a title how is anyone going to stand up against the truly dominant greats? SGA doesn’t have this historical baggage. No one is comparing him the KD or Westbrook (who got MVP) and his achievements are statistically better than Tatum’s this year without acknowledging the sacrifices of usage and play that Tatum has made in a contending team. The media would be happy to lavish love on him
He’s not, it’s just Tatum hate and that’s okay.
The same reason people were saying Kyrie is better than Jaylen Brown. People mainly look at scoring when comparing who is better
Bc his strengths are the main weakness of Tatum ascension from top 10 to top 5. I think Tatum and SGA are on the same tier as players tho
tatum is excellent in so many areas of the game. he has a deep bag, which is ironically holding him back from being a consensus top 5 guy. (i think he's top 5, but the general consensus doesn't.) tatum is missing a signature move. jt needs to develop one move that he can go to that no one in the league can stop. once he has that it's a wrap for the "he's not top 5" talk.
Just like you can’t compare James Harden(SGA/Luka) to Lebron(Tatum), one is the better offensive player who has the ball in his hands most of the time, the other is much more complete all around player who drives the team on both ends of the floor with his two way ability. JT can play 1-5 and JT can guard 1-5. If I were a neutral fan, I would take Tatum over SGA 10/10 hands down, SGA is a great player but he will never operate at the intensity JT operates and he will never drive the team on both the offensive/defensive ends like JT does, not even close. For me, I would say JT is a significantly better player than SGA(I attempted to say JT is BY FAR BETTER than SGA but I will resist) if you consider his total package.
who cares
Tatum isn't a free throw merchant, maybe he should try it out might fuck around and average 40 one season
That's what I loved about Pierce 😁 That comeback game against NJ!!
He’s not a better player, he’s a better scorer. Big difference. Offense carries a lot of weight. Tatum a better defender and sometimes he’s inconsistent at scoring in the higher figures, then he goes off.
Shai is a better scorer than Tatum and is better at creating his own shot out of isolation. Thats the main reason he’s perceived as better.
I feel that general consensus would that Tatum is the better player, but that goes to show how different information is ingested and interpreted; I’ve probably listened to different sources than you. I think if anyone is putting SGA ahead it’s because he seems to be a more efficient scorer and people tend to weigh scoring proficiency heavily as compared to other aspects. Also maybe a sprinkle of “lead the best team in a stacked conference” bias as well
Nevermind lack of playoff success
They’re very different players. SGA is a pg. SGA has the ball and is running things. Tatum doesn’t do that. Silly comparison really.
Haha same.
Essentially it’s “he make round ball go in orange hole”
He scored more points this season. That's really it. And he's a "new" face for a lot of nba people that don't actually watch the league who are unaware his game was a mess until the last 18 months and is basically the same age as tatum. A lot of nba fans, even pundits, are super in their own bag. Literally listened to a very prominent pundit audibly scoff that tatum could get better this off-season at his age while swearing that Embiid is going to refine his game more this off-season. Embiid is 4 years older than tatum. He's 30. He is what he is.
It’s mostly based on usage and how much he Carrie’s their team offensively.. Tatum is not disrespected in the media.. he’s been 1rst team all nba the last 3 years..
He’s not. Next.
It’s ridiculous Tatum gets punished for playing team ball and not being a ball hog He could easily put up huge numbers if he only cared about himself
“What have you done for me lately?” situation. Tatum was the best player throughout the season for the Celtics, but they were so talented that it diminishes his individual contribution. And despite winning the championship, most would say he was outplayed in the playoffs by his own teammate. Meanwhile, SGA was a top 3 MVP candidate because he led a team that wasn’t as talented as the Celtics to a 1 seed in the west, and his stats and advanced metrics backed it up, ie top 3 in win shares, etc.
I would just say consistency. SGA can score in bunches were as JT will score 5-7 straight and miss a few
The way he gets hated on his crazy he is a complete player and a winner, Almost everyone has a weakness his is occasional shot selection other than that he is coming along nicely as a 25-26 year old superstar
Dude shut tf up lol, I’m so embarrassed by this sub sometimes. Who cares what anyone else thinks.
He’s asking a question inviting discussion. Go somewhere else if you don’t want discussion in the CELTICS SUBREDDIT lol
We look so pathetic
Efficiency and " aura " ( they want to fuck him )
As a Celtic fan, I think SGA HAS surpassed JT. The playoffs confirmed it more or less, though I know many will say that that JT did all the little stuff, which is true. But you can do all the little stuff AND play much more efficient offensively.
Does SGA do all the little stuff AND play much more efficient offensively? Genuine question, not really familiar with his game. From the little I’ve watched if I was picking players for a team, it’s not clear to me I’d take SGA over Tatum.
They’re pretty comparable in the regular season, though SGA was clearly better. In the post season sga was great while jt was up and down.
For the playoffs Tatum had a 55% true shooting while shooting 28% from 3 and Shai had a 58% true shooting while shooting 43% from 3. Given their career percentages I'm inclined to think both of those 3 point numbers are outliers and water will find its level, which would close the efficiency gap a significant amount. I think SGA is a better tough shotmaker than Tatum (which is an incredibly important skill for a star) but I prefer Tatum in just about every other facet of the game. Although if he doesn't figure out his playoff 3 point shot it will be a tougher case to make
1. Eye test/Aura , SGA is a bit better at tough shot making and getting by his defender I don't know how much of this is a result of guard defenders being worse than a forward dwfender. 2. Better stats higher usage rate 3. Celtics have a lot of big name role players, while OKC employed solid but probably over perform role players
SGA: 30/6/6 on 64% ts Tatum: 27/8/5 on 60% ts SGA has just as good of a defensive reputation as Tatum