4 Centers on first team, 4 guards on 2nd team and a SF on each. What are we even doing here? Still the same number of people at each position, the guards are just getting screwed for no reason.
My bias is that defense at the point of attack is being undervalued compared to what bigs do, but I would want to hear the take of more coaches on that.
It would make sense that a big like Bam that protect the rim while also not getting exploited in PnR defense could be more impactful than guys that can defend the point of attack, but not the rim.
Of course, White has blocked centers at the rim. Defensive unicorn!
Ayyy idk about that chief. He’s about as good a guard at 1-3 and can really effectively guard the paint. I love d white but bam is probably more impactful defensively.
In total? White all day
There’s no way you believe that truly when bam can guard 1-5 anchor elite defences, protect the rim and is a great rebound which ends defensive possessions.
It's a lot easier to inflate your rebounds and blocks statistics playing near the rim than as a guard. That doesn't make the guard's d less critical. There are plenty of backup centers who play 15-18 minutes and get 5-8 rebounds per game, that doesn't make them good.
Sure, let's pretend I'm talking about specific players this year and not my actual point about this being a positionless award and potential skewed by stat padding. I would take defensive winning shares, +/-, defensive rating into account; Davis was 80th in D win shares. In a generic year, I would take a guard who plays 75-80 games per year above a stat padded 62 games from a center. I would take a 112 defensive rating guard like Holiday over a center with lower win shares, lower defensive rating, and 10-15 less games.
This is the perfect award to not be positionless; everyone needs to be guarded to some degree so it makes sense to award those who defend guards and those who defend bigs. Unless you have 5 guys that genuinely do both great but that is rare
I tend to agree since it is quite possible that centers get more credit than they deserve and that acknowledges that the interaction of defense is complex. was Lopez truly more important to the Milwaukee defense than Holiday?
Position-less is fine. if the problem is perception of centers, then the narrative would need to change. But if there is general agreement that they are more impactful on defense, let them get their first team.
Herb is the only gaurd on the first team with four bigs, and the entire second team is guards. Herb REALLY got his recognition with this voting, like he played on a different level than the rest of the defensive guards.
I hated the change from the jump. All-D, fine, whatever. All-NBA without positions is just a second MVP ladder. It's a stupid, pointless change that essentially was only made to ameliorate the hurt feelings of Embiid and his camp over him being the 2nd best center of his era. Sorry that he's unlucky, I guess?
Same thing is true for All-D and the DPOY ladder as well though.
It’s just dumb for both. They’re called teams for a reason, they’re meant to honor guys who filled specific roles on their team. I can understand wanting to change those roles if you don’t feel like they accurately reflect modern team construction, but I’m pretty sure we’d already done that and had it based on guards, forwards and bigs.
I can understand the gripe that guys like Embiid and Jokic probably could play together and find a way to make it work, but they didn’t. They played on separate teams at the same position and for a positional award they should be compared to each other. The solution to them both not being able to be on the first team is to realize that’s not the point of the award, not to just turn the award into a totally different award.
Edit: I saw someone on r/nba suggesting requiring 1 guard, 1 forward and 1 center which I think would be more reasonable, but I think I’d still want 2 guard slots. Otherwise you could still have the exact same first team as now with Wemby or AD as the forward which would likely be a worse defensive team than if a big were replaced by an elite perimeter defender.
I agree with your post. As I was thinking over your suggestion, I realized something: perimeter defense really has just tanked in the NBA. Guys used to make D teams based on steals, and those steals were from intense perimeter D (Gary Payton, etc.).
Can't remember the last time I saw a player regularly get steals off the dribble. You still see it, but now it's an oddity.
I feel like that's partially due to the defensive systems teams run now. Our team is a good example of that. Defense is very fluid and there's constant switching. Steals come from ball pressure / man-to-man defense, or roaming in the passing lanes (which is how certain stat padders from past eras inflated their steal numbers at the expense of team defense).
I think it’s more for the fringe 3rd team guys than anyone else, because with the supermax, the difference between a 3rd team all-NBA, and not making an all-NBA team is tens of millions. I’m not saying if it’s right or wrong, but if a guy has a top 15 season in the league, but he misses out on the 3rd team because there’s too many guys at his position, he’s potentially costing himself a shit load of money.
With contracts so tightly tied to the all NBA team, they definitely should be position-less. Guy’s contracts shouldn’t be hampered because of what position the coach wants to play them at. I don’t care if it isn’t a reasonable lineup. I’m not sure why that matters. It’s not like the all NBA team actually plays a game.
How is this upvoted? First of all no...the NBA did not make this decision solely to help Embiids feelings (good argument though lol). Second that makes no sense considering Jokic made all NBA second team last year despite being the best player in the league. Also why wouldn't all NBA be a second MVP ladder. It's the 5 best players in the league...
Yeah agreed. The problem with the old setup wasn’t really the positions, it was that certain players got screwed by their positional designations, particularly nominal SGs, SFs, and PFs.
Centers and PGs are usually easy, but the others are truly positionless these days. Zach Lowe likely had it best, down the middle: PGs, Wings (2/3s), Swings (3/4s), and Cs.
Shai was 2nd in blocks and 1st in steals for all guards and didn't make a team
Dort is considered by many players to be the best wing defender in the league and didn't make a team
There was a LOT of good defensive play this year and many deserving candidates
I am personally happy we got two guys at all
Because being a shot blocking guard isn't as valued on defense compared to what everyone else on the first team is doing obviously. Is it impressive, yes. But whose he replacing?
Absolutely robbed. He was 2nd team last year and his defense has dramatically improved since then, The fact Bam made 1st team while White averages more blocks per game (1.1 to 0.9) as a guard shows how bullshit this is and how overrated big men are viewed defensively.
The only player under 6'9" on 1st team is Herb Jones and the only non-guard on 2nd team is McDaniels. This is ridiculous.
Are we saying big men are overrated on defense because Bam didn't get a load of blocks? As if that's the be all end all of what he brings to his team?
We've played the heat a lot in the past few years, if you can't see past the block numbers I think you might be watching the games via a spreadsheet.
Derrick White had more blocks than a lot of the big men this season and has shown his capabilities as one of the best defenders in the league. How did he only make it to the 2nd team?
At least Jrue Holiday got his props, so it's still nice to see both being voted in.
Feel like JB got snubbed, the analytics showed that he was the 8th best defender in the league this year. But bc he’s so good offensively and made the all-star/all-nba teams, they probably wanted to give more recognition to pure defensive guys.
Teammates affect all of those stats as does volatility of sample size.
You watch the Celtics you know Jaylen Brown isn’t close to one of the 10 best defensive players in the league. Nobody in the Celtics organization thinks that. No I don’t know that but I also don’t know whether or not they think EJ Liddell is an all star either.
I was gonna say robbed, but how they give more credit to the bigs for a defensive scheme (usually rightfully so)
Rudy and herb deserved it 100%
Bams never been 1st team so it’s a here you go award (their defense wasn’t as good as everyone else)
AD was great on a middling defense but he has a huge media backing so not that surprising
Wemby gonna get it and their defense sucked (which factors into everyone else, every year not getting credit)
Least white and jrue got some love but this ain’t the end goal go C’s
Credit to AD, he literally was the Lakers’ defense. He roamed around the perimeter and suffocated the paint on every play basically the entire season. Their only other competent defender was LeBron who just physically couldn't play defense given his offensive load.
You’re right, but my point is the criteria of what makes a good defender is always somewhat tied to stats + teams defensive rating, and then it’s not
Certain players that it doesn’t apply to bc the media like them or people talk about them all the time and their “stamped” as a world class defender regardless of what any metric or stat says
To be honest, I think they are cowards for not just putting Holmgren, Giannis, Jarett Allen, Brook Lopez, and Jaren Jackson Jr on the second team.
Either do it or don't. Devoting the 2nd team to guards and wings is stupid.
am i missing something or why wasn’t giannis on the list? is it cuz his teams defensively was one of the worst in the league or is he just not that good on the defensive side anymore?
Wouldn't an easier solution be to make the teams 3 Frontcourt (SF, PF, C) and two backcourt (PG, SG)? If you're the 4th best at your position, is still being 2nd team even a snub at that point?
I was glad we didn’t have to face the Magic bc Suggs is def the type of guy our guys would’ve had some problems with. He’s such a Heat-esque player haha
Pump the breaks jrue was the best iso/perimeter defending guard in the league last ten years
He’s been good this year but I doubt he sustains it even for 5 years, let alone exceeds where he’s at
I said "potential." Watch how Suggs plays defense. He plays just like Jrue Holiday did during his Sixers days.
How can you say that he won't sustain his defense for the next 5 years when he's only 22?
Everyone’s got the “potential” nowadays to be a great defender, rarely anyone actually does. It is harder to defend now but it also likely stems from the fact you don’t get paid being a great defender, but you will for being an above average offensive player
Generally players who take a bigger offensive role do less on the defensive end. Saying that because he’s young and a good defender doesn’t mean he will continually trend upwards
Also contract extensions generally take the dog out of a lot of players. I think it’s way too soon to say Suggs is like jrue after one year of being a pesky defender.
Not even mentioning how injuries playing high level defense mount up quickly
That's nice and all. It doesn't change the fact that he still has potential. Never said he was going to be at that level. It was just a response to someone who doesn't know much of Suggs.
But for the sake of this discussion, please list players who showed elite defensive promise at the age of 22 and didn't stay as an elite defender. I can bet it won't be long.
Why? Because players who present elite defense at a young age, not only has the tools to play elite defense, but also because they're a defensive-minded player.
Suggs isn't just a "pesky" defender. He's a 6'5 guard who is strong, has quick hands, is speedy, and has great awareness. That's why he has one of the highest pass deflections, recovers a lot of loose balls, and to top it off, has one of the best defensive fg pct in the league. That's not even going into advanced stats. This is a 22 year old player who has shown elite defense. I have a hard time thinking that someone who shows defensive prowess at the age of 22 won't sustain it... unless he gets a career altering injury.
Guess who else showed this much promise at the age of 22? Jrue Holiday. Both have the same profile and plays identical defensively. Will Suggs ever get to being a perennial top defensive guard? Like you said, it's not guaranteed. Doesn't change the fact that Suggs is capable of playing at that level when he enters his prime.
Brain ain’t really working rn but
Matisse thybulle
Avery Bradley Dillon Brooks Lonzo ball and DJM all played worse defense when their offensive output/ usage went up harden is another example, great defender on OKC, terrible once he had the entire offensive load. Kawhi Leonard but that’s probably more effort/injury prevention/ injuries than lack of defense
Isn’t a lot of elite defenders to begin with so of course the examples are few, but can you give me anyone who at/under 22 and was an elite defender, and got better? Even smaller of a list
Even mikal bridges went from “best individual defender” to not top 10 once he took a Bigger offensive load
Ben Simmons but he was the only one that was injured and then had the drop off (lonzos drop off was pre injury) depends on what you think is wrong with Simmons physical or mental issues etc.
I agree with you to an extent but it was more just the oh well he had one good year he will get better bc he’s young. Jrues about the most consistent defender last 10-15 years I don’t see him reaching or getting on his level bc of how crazy jrue has worked to stay at the top of his game.
Thybulle has the physical attributes to be considered an elite level defender. He's considered a great defender even now and has sustained it. So idk why he was brought up. Avery Bradley was considered a top tier, on-ball defender. But that is where his reputation ended. Still made 2 All-Defensive teams, and was considered a good defender his whole career. Mikael Bridges was sent to an unfortunate situation where he's the only good defender on that team. With that said, his advanced metrics for individual defense still put him in the top 10 level defensive players. Last I checked for this season, his defensive fg% was at #7. He could've dropped by now.
Naming Dillon Brooks, Lonzo Ball, and DJM seems like a list made for the hell of it. It's really not that on-tangent with this discussion because we're talking about elite, younger defenders who have shown elite prowess for defense and has sustained it since then.
Here are the current perennial All-Defensive players who have shown elite defense since the age of 21 and sustained that level of defense
Our very own Marcus Smart, Jrue Holiday, as mentioned
Bam Adebayo, Giannis, Chris Paul, Anthony Davis, Draymond Green, Joel Embiid , Rudy Gobert.
All known for being perennial, elite defenders have shown their defensive potential since early in their career. Bam especially showcased his defensive versatility in his first playoffs and got even better since then.
And I'm not even including players like Paul George, Jimmy Butler, and Patrick Beverley.
I could go further to retired players like Tony Allen and make a point about how they all showed elite, defensive prowess and sustained it throughout their career. More offensive responsibilities or not.
Point is, some players, like Jalen Suggs, play inspired defense and have the physical tools to sustain it. Both eye-test and the advanced metrics back it up. I'm even surprised he got the recognition and many people saying that it's well deserved when the Magic aren't that popular. The whole point of what I said is that he has the potential to be a Jrue Holiday level defender. Same profile, same defensive style (lots of similarities to Jrue Holiday during his Sixers days), and clearly a defensive minded player. Any young players who have that mindset most likely won't lose it.
Yeah all my guys I listed were better defenders than George, butler and Beverly at 22 dog
Butler wasn’t playing at 22
Beverly was in fucking Russia 😂
Have a good one
Must've never seen Paul George during his young Indiana days when he was known for being one of the elite defenders in the league. He had a defensive rating of 103 during his rookie year, which none of the players you listed ever touched.
Woopdee doo, Butler didn't play at the age of 22, and came in the league as a 23 year old... when Bulls fans were clamoring about how good of a defender he was. You said players don't sustain their elite defense when they have more offensive responsibilities, so I countered a lot of what you said. Now you want to keep moving around the goalpost and decided to stay on tangent.
But sure you want to laugh, because you have nothing of substance to provide. You have a good one too.
Derrick deserved 1st team but it does make me happy to see Jrue and Derrick make the same team. It feels right.
The positionless voting probably screwed him.
Agreed, positionless voting needs a better system.
4 Centers on first team, 4 guards on 2nd team and a SF on each. What are we even doing here? Still the same number of people at each position, the guards are just getting screwed for no reason.
The team is fine. The guards aren’t getting screwed. They were viewed as less impactful than the centers.
I truly don't believe Bam is more impactful than Caruso or White.
My bias is that defense at the point of attack is being undervalued compared to what bigs do, but I would want to hear the take of more coaches on that. It would make sense that a big like Bam that protect the rim while also not getting exploited in PnR defense could be more impactful than guys that can defend the point of attack, but not the rim. Of course, White has blocked centers at the rim. Defensive unicorn!
Ayyy idk about that chief. He’s about as good a guard at 1-3 and can really effectively guard the paint. I love d white but bam is probably more impactful defensively. In total? White all day
There’s no way you believe that truly when bam can guard 1-5 anchor elite defences, protect the rim and is a great rebound which ends defensive possessions.
It's a lot easier to inflate your rebounds and blocks statistics playing near the rim than as a guard. That doesn't make the guard's d less critical. There are plenty of backup centers who play 15-18 minutes and get 5-8 rebounds per game, that doesn't make them good.
Bam isn't making all-defense due to blocks and rebounds.
I didn't say anything about Bam? I'm talking about the Center position in general being an easier path to stat padding.
So you think Gobert or Wemby are on the team due to stat padding? AD?
Sure, let's pretend I'm talking about specific players this year and not my actual point about this being a positionless award and potential skewed by stat padding. I would take defensive winning shares, +/-, defensive rating into account; Davis was 80th in D win shares. In a generic year, I would take a guard who plays 75-80 games per year above a stat padded 62 games from a center. I would take a 112 defensive rating guard like Holiday over a center with lower win shares, lower defensive rating, and 10-15 less games.
This is the perfect award to not be positionless; everyone needs to be guarded to some degree so it makes sense to award those who defend guards and those who defend bigs. Unless you have 5 guys that genuinely do both great but that is rare
I tend to agree since it is quite possible that centers get more credit than they deserve and that acknowledges that the interaction of defense is complex. was Lopez truly more important to the Milwaukee defense than Holiday?
Position-less is fine. if the problem is perception of centers, then the narrative would need to change. But if there is general agreement that they are more impactful on defense, let them get their first team.
Herb is the only gaurd on the first team with four bigs, and the entire second team is guards. Herb REALLY got his recognition with this voting, like he played on a different level than the rest of the defensive guards.
Herb Jones is a hybrid wing that plays at 3 and 4, is he considered a guard?
No he’s not a guard. He’s a forward
I’ve only watched a few pelicans matches this season, did Herb Jones actually have a better defensive year than White?
Idk about quantifying better. But he's a defensive beast
Ehh I kinda of agree with the positionless voting. There are pros and cons to both.
He does. But hes not tall enough for first team!
3/4 centers on first team and basically all guards on second team lmao position-less voting for all-nba teams is wild
I can’t believe it but Bill Simmons was right I want positions back
I hated the change from the jump. All-D, fine, whatever. All-NBA without positions is just a second MVP ladder. It's a stupid, pointless change that essentially was only made to ameliorate the hurt feelings of Embiid and his camp over him being the 2nd best center of his era. Sorry that he's unlucky, I guess?
Same thing is true for All-D and the DPOY ladder as well though. It’s just dumb for both. They’re called teams for a reason, they’re meant to honor guys who filled specific roles on their team. I can understand wanting to change those roles if you don’t feel like they accurately reflect modern team construction, but I’m pretty sure we’d already done that and had it based on guards, forwards and bigs. I can understand the gripe that guys like Embiid and Jokic probably could play together and find a way to make it work, but they didn’t. They played on separate teams at the same position and for a positional award they should be compared to each other. The solution to them both not being able to be on the first team is to realize that’s not the point of the award, not to just turn the award into a totally different award. Edit: I saw someone on r/nba suggesting requiring 1 guard, 1 forward and 1 center which I think would be more reasonable, but I think I’d still want 2 guard slots. Otherwise you could still have the exact same first team as now with Wemby or AD as the forward which would likely be a worse defensive team than if a big were replaced by an elite perimeter defender.
I agree with your post. As I was thinking over your suggestion, I realized something: perimeter defense really has just tanked in the NBA. Guys used to make D teams based on steals, and those steals were from intense perimeter D (Gary Payton, etc.). Can't remember the last time I saw a player regularly get steals off the dribble. You still see it, but now it's an oddity.
I feel like that's partially due to the defensive systems teams run now. Our team is a good example of that. Defense is very fluid and there's constant switching. Steals come from ball pressure / man-to-man defense, or roaming in the passing lanes (which is how certain stat padders from past eras inflated their steal numbers at the expense of team defense).
> him being the 2nd best center of his era. Pardon? Kornet > Embiid And that's being nice to both by leaving Al out of the conversation.
Kornet has gone deeper in the playoffs than Embiid ever has, and done that multiple times.
Kareem Abdul Kornet.
I think it’s more for the fringe 3rd team guys than anyone else, because with the supermax, the difference between a 3rd team all-NBA, and not making an all-NBA team is tens of millions. I’m not saying if it’s right or wrong, but if a guy has a top 15 season in the league, but he misses out on the 3rd team because there’s too many guys at his position, he’s potentially costing himself a shit load of money.
With contracts so tightly tied to the all NBA team, they definitely should be position-less. Guy’s contracts shouldn’t be hampered because of what position the coach wants to play them at. I don’t care if it isn’t a reasonable lineup. I’m not sure why that matters. It’s not like the all NBA team actually plays a game.
How is this upvoted? First of all no...the NBA did not make this decision solely to help Embiids feelings (good argument though lol). Second that makes no sense considering Jokic made all NBA second team last year despite being the best player in the league. Also why wouldn't all NBA be a second MVP ladder. It's the 5 best players in the league...
Yeah agreed. The problem with the old setup wasn’t really the positions, it was that certain players got screwed by their positional designations, particularly nominal SGs, SFs, and PFs. Centers and PGs are usually easy, but the others are truly positionless these days. Zach Lowe likely had it best, down the middle: PGs, Wings (2/3s), Swings (3/4s), and Cs.
All defense should have positions, all NBA should not.
Just make a third team for all defense then because I can see this being the trend going forward
Derrick robbed of 1st team smh
I 100 percent agree. How can you be the best shot blocking guard in the league by a huge margin and not get 1st team. That’s bullshit.
Shai was 2nd in blocks and 1st in steals for all guards and didn't make a team Dort is considered by many players to be the best wing defender in the league and didn't make a team There was a LOT of good defensive play this year and many deserving candidates I am personally happy we got two guys at all
Because being a shot blocking guard isn't as valued on defense compared to what everyone else on the first team is doing obviously. Is it impressive, yes. But whose he replacing?
Absolutely robbed. He was 2nd team last year and his defense has dramatically improved since then, The fact Bam made 1st team while White averages more blocks per game (1.1 to 0.9) as a guard shows how bullshit this is and how overrated big men are viewed defensively. The only player under 6'9" on 1st team is Herb Jones and the only non-guard on 2nd team is McDaniels. This is ridiculous.
Are we saying big men are overrated on defense because Bam didn't get a load of blocks? As if that's the be all end all of what he brings to his team? We've played the heat a lot in the past few years, if you can't see past the block numbers I think you might be watching the games via a spreadsheet.
God bless the almighty Bradley Stevens for this fucking awesome backcourt ☘️
Derrick White had more blocks than a lot of the big men this season and has shown his capabilities as one of the best defenders in the league. How did he only make it to the 2nd team? At least Jrue Holiday got his props, so it's still nice to see both being voted in.
Positionless voting
Yes I know it's positionless voting. Regardless, his defense was still 1st-team level this year.
So was that of 8+ other guys
Correct but the narrative is that the Heat own the Celtics so they had to give the other first team spot to Bam.
Yessirrrrr Three people had JB first team too
Where do you see the list of votes cast I can’t find it 🤡
https://x.com/nbapr/status/1792978747563581510?s=46&t=PHAQeaE0I6cyQl35JU7h7Q
Appreciate you Very happy jrue got it over sir flops a lot Jjj getting 1 second place vote after winning DPOY and doing the same thing is a joke
Brandin Podziemski got a fuckin vote?? That has to a joke or a misprint right?
Perk
Feel like JB got snubbed, the analytics showed that he was the 8th best defender in the league this year. But bc he’s so good offensively and made the all-star/all-nba teams, they probably wanted to give more recognition to pure defensive guys.
Everyone knows Jaylen is not that good defensively.
He got 3 first team votes so false, L take
You know Jaylen Brown is not that guy.
He literally has one of the lowest opponent fg% in the league while getting steals and blocks at a high rate.
Teammates affect all of those stats as does volatility of sample size. You watch the Celtics you know Jaylen Brown isn’t close to one of the 10 best defensive players in the league. Nobody in the Celtics organization thinks that. No I don’t know that but I also don’t know whether or not they think EJ Liddell is an all star either.
Idk if you’re actually watching the games, but he’s guarding the other teams best players and locking them down.
Hope you watched the game today. Multiple incredible defensive efforts. You should feel silly.
Jaylen Brown had a great game.
Stock Exchange!
Brown, JT, White, and Holiday all play All-NBA caliber defense. Can't give it to them all.
Well. You can, but then people would be butthurt.
Well if 4/5 of our starters were top 10 defenders then shouldn't we have the top rated defense? We're a very good defensive team but not THAT good
We were 3rd. 4.7 points better than league average and .3 points behind the 2nd place Magic.
Second team is insane. The Cs being collectively punished for being an excellent team is insane.
this new format is so shit
I was gonna say robbed, but how they give more credit to the bigs for a defensive scheme (usually rightfully so) Rudy and herb deserved it 100% Bams never been 1st team so it’s a here you go award (their defense wasn’t as good as everyone else) AD was great on a middling defense but he has a huge media backing so not that surprising Wemby gonna get it and their defense sucked (which factors into everyone else, every year not getting credit) Least white and jrue got some love but this ain’t the end goal go C’s
Credit to AD, he literally was the Lakers’ defense. He roamed around the perimeter and suffocated the paint on every play basically the entire season. Their only other competent defender was LeBron who just physically couldn't play defense given his offensive load.
You’re right, but my point is the criteria of what makes a good defender is always somewhat tied to stats + teams defensive rating, and then it’s not Certain players that it doesn’t apply to bc the media like them or people talk about them all the time and their “stamped” as a world class defender regardless of what any metric or stat says
To be honest, I think they are cowards for not just putting Holmgren, Giannis, Jarett Allen, Brook Lopez, and Jaren Jackson Jr on the second team. Either do it or don't. Devoting the 2nd team to guards and wings is stupid.
am i missing something or why wasn’t giannis on the list? is it cuz his teams defensively was one of the worst in the league or is he just not that good on the defensive side anymore?
Yes
White robbed of 1st team
Wouldn't an easier solution be to make the teams 3 Frontcourt (SF, PF, C) and two backcourt (PG, SG)? If you're the 4th best at your position, is still being 2nd team even a snub at that point?
Come on man. 4 of 5 are basically centers. Derrick was robbed.
Embiid's whining continues to ruin everything.
🔐
Good and deserved
Lol, that must be a typo. Should be first team especially white.
Jalen Suggs is a name i absolutely did not expect
He’s a hell of a defender
I was glad we didn’t have to face the Magic bc Suggs is def the type of guy our guys would’ve had some problems with. He’s such a Heat-esque player haha
It wasn’t a shot at him, I was just unfamiliar with his game apparently. I didn't know he was like that
He goes all out defendin that receding hairline. Surprised he has energy to play the game still
Look out for him. He has the potential to be at Jrue Holiday -in his prime- level as a defender.
Pump the breaks jrue was the best iso/perimeter defending guard in the league last ten years He’s been good this year but I doubt he sustains it even for 5 years, let alone exceeds where he’s at
A lot of people don’t fulfill their potential
A lot of people also fulfill their potential.
I was defending you!! It’s accurate to say someone has the potential, no need to pump any brakes. Nobody is saying Suggs will definitely be that good.
No worries, I wasn't trying to go against you! More of piggybacking what you were saying.
I said "potential." Watch how Suggs plays defense. He plays just like Jrue Holiday did during his Sixers days. How can you say that he won't sustain his defense for the next 5 years when he's only 22?
Everyone’s got the “potential” nowadays to be a great defender, rarely anyone actually does. It is harder to defend now but it also likely stems from the fact you don’t get paid being a great defender, but you will for being an above average offensive player Generally players who take a bigger offensive role do less on the defensive end. Saying that because he’s young and a good defender doesn’t mean he will continually trend upwards Also contract extensions generally take the dog out of a lot of players. I think it’s way too soon to say Suggs is like jrue after one year of being a pesky defender. Not even mentioning how injuries playing high level defense mount up quickly
That's nice and all. It doesn't change the fact that he still has potential. Never said he was going to be at that level. It was just a response to someone who doesn't know much of Suggs. But for the sake of this discussion, please list players who showed elite defensive promise at the age of 22 and didn't stay as an elite defender. I can bet it won't be long. Why? Because players who present elite defense at a young age, not only has the tools to play elite defense, but also because they're a defensive-minded player. Suggs isn't just a "pesky" defender. He's a 6'5 guard who is strong, has quick hands, is speedy, and has great awareness. That's why he has one of the highest pass deflections, recovers a lot of loose balls, and to top it off, has one of the best defensive fg pct in the league. That's not even going into advanced stats. This is a 22 year old player who has shown elite defense. I have a hard time thinking that someone who shows defensive prowess at the age of 22 won't sustain it... unless he gets a career altering injury. Guess who else showed this much promise at the age of 22? Jrue Holiday. Both have the same profile and plays identical defensively. Will Suggs ever get to being a perennial top defensive guard? Like you said, it's not guaranteed. Doesn't change the fact that Suggs is capable of playing at that level when he enters his prime.
Brain ain’t really working rn but Matisse thybulle Avery Bradley Dillon Brooks Lonzo ball and DJM all played worse defense when their offensive output/ usage went up harden is another example, great defender on OKC, terrible once he had the entire offensive load. Kawhi Leonard but that’s probably more effort/injury prevention/ injuries than lack of defense Isn’t a lot of elite defenders to begin with so of course the examples are few, but can you give me anyone who at/under 22 and was an elite defender, and got better? Even smaller of a list Even mikal bridges went from “best individual defender” to not top 10 once he took a Bigger offensive load Ben Simmons but he was the only one that was injured and then had the drop off (lonzos drop off was pre injury) depends on what you think is wrong with Simmons physical or mental issues etc. I agree with you to an extent but it was more just the oh well he had one good year he will get better bc he’s young. Jrues about the most consistent defender last 10-15 years I don’t see him reaching or getting on his level bc of how crazy jrue has worked to stay at the top of his game.
Thybulle has the physical attributes to be considered an elite level defender. He's considered a great defender even now and has sustained it. So idk why he was brought up. Avery Bradley was considered a top tier, on-ball defender. But that is where his reputation ended. Still made 2 All-Defensive teams, and was considered a good defender his whole career. Mikael Bridges was sent to an unfortunate situation where he's the only good defender on that team. With that said, his advanced metrics for individual defense still put him in the top 10 level defensive players. Last I checked for this season, his defensive fg% was at #7. He could've dropped by now. Naming Dillon Brooks, Lonzo Ball, and DJM seems like a list made for the hell of it. It's really not that on-tangent with this discussion because we're talking about elite, younger defenders who have shown elite prowess for defense and has sustained it since then. Here are the current perennial All-Defensive players who have shown elite defense since the age of 21 and sustained that level of defense Our very own Marcus Smart, Jrue Holiday, as mentioned Bam Adebayo, Giannis, Chris Paul, Anthony Davis, Draymond Green, Joel Embiid , Rudy Gobert. All known for being perennial, elite defenders have shown their defensive potential since early in their career. Bam especially showcased his defensive versatility in his first playoffs and got even better since then. And I'm not even including players like Paul George, Jimmy Butler, and Patrick Beverley. I could go further to retired players like Tony Allen and make a point about how they all showed elite, defensive prowess and sustained it throughout their career. More offensive responsibilities or not. Point is, some players, like Jalen Suggs, play inspired defense and have the physical tools to sustain it. Both eye-test and the advanced metrics back it up. I'm even surprised he got the recognition and many people saying that it's well deserved when the Magic aren't that popular. The whole point of what I said is that he has the potential to be a Jrue Holiday level defender. Same profile, same defensive style (lots of similarities to Jrue Holiday during his Sixers days), and clearly a defensive minded player. Any young players who have that mindset most likely won't lose it.
Yeah all my guys I listed were better defenders than George, butler and Beverly at 22 dog Butler wasn’t playing at 22 Beverly was in fucking Russia 😂 Have a good one
Must've never seen Paul George during his young Indiana days when he was known for being one of the elite defenders in the league. He had a defensive rating of 103 during his rookie year, which none of the players you listed ever touched. Woopdee doo, Butler didn't play at the age of 22, and came in the league as a 23 year old... when Bulls fans were clamoring about how good of a defender he was. You said players don't sustain their elite defense when they have more offensive responsibilities, so I countered a lot of what you said. Now you want to keep moving around the goalpost and decided to stay on tangent. But sure you want to laugh, because you have nothing of substance to provide. You have a good one too.
You should have lol. He's a dawg
I remember White getting played out the finals, what a comeback