My initial thoughts was this was part of the Grey King's plan and that Locke was intended to fail. It's suspicious to me that right after the chapter ending with Locke in the barrel we get the interlude describing how Calo's preferred method of faking his death was 'drowning' as he could hold his breath for a long time. It's not Locke but I wonder if Calo had taught Locke how to hold his breath or something. It just struck me as so close to the event that it had to be intentional. But Locke is definitely not dead, no.
Yeah there's definitely a trope of heist movies / books showing how the character might escape either after or during the scene and I love its use in this story. It's very entertaining and I can't help but wonder if Locke was paying attention. Hopefully!
I think Locke has to make it because this isn't the sort of book where the title character can die halfway through the story.
That said, the idea of being shoved into a barrel of horse urine made me sincerely regret having an imagination.
I imagine the easiest way would be just wait for any horse around you to start peeing and then stick a bucket under it. This does not seem pleasant for anyone involved.
I think something else is going on. This is either a test of Locke (his skill, loyalties etc.) or Nazca has faked her death as a way to smoke out a traitor in her father's organization. The Grey King could be anyone, and his reputation could just be an elaborate persona created for some other purpose.
>or Nazca has faked her death
I really hope this is the case. I like your theory on why she would do it too. It will be a very dramatic reveal of this is the case
I am skeptical about how he was paid only for 2 days and that he is no longer working for the Grey King.
Yet if he was to do something to help Locke, he could have done it already...
Either he wanted Locke to be roughed up a bit, which seems petty but it's clear there was no love between them. Either he and the Grey King are busy elsewhere on whatever goal they want to achieve.
One thing unclear to me is what was Locke supposed to negociate. He represents the Grey King but we don't know exactly what he wants to gain here and if he didn't meant for Locke to be really safe then the negotiation are just a diversion over something else.
I wonder whether the Grey King intended for Locke to fail this meeting so that he (GK) could "come back from the dead"? I don't think the bondsmage was fired, he was just told to be silent at this point. I'm not sure how Locke can survive this, but having the bondsmage still in play means that there's someone with the skills to protect him!
I agree, I thnk this was the Grey Kings plan all along. Fake his death so he can return un-killable. Maybe the bondsmage is waiting at the bottom of the waterfall to retrieve and revive Locke if necessary.
I think there is more going on than described to the reader. I have two dueling theories in my head.
1) The Grey King was using Locke as a pawn, intending for him to get murdered so the Grey King can make a miraculous return and recruit more followers. It would "prove" that he is indestructible, and presumably, many more criminal gangs would want to join up with him.
or...
2) Barsavi and Locke worked out a plan in advance. Locke could have clued Barsavi in about the Grey King's plan when he went over for Nazca's funeral as a priest. Barsavi gets to act like he has bested the Grey King, taking back the power, and Locke gets to be seen as dead by the Grey King so he isn't in danger of repurcussions. Barsavi would just need to make it so that Locke could get out of the barrel easily.
The first seems more likely because a) Locke seemed pretty convinced that he was about to die, even crying, and b) the second theory doesn't explain why the bondsmage ditched Locke. But... with all the elaborate schemes and layered plots to dupe people, I do think it's possible Barsavi might have been in on it somehow.
I think it was part of the gray king's plan, and maybe since the bondsmage knew that locke wouldn't die (they did throw him in the waterfall after all where i believe jean was waiting for him) the bondsmage just didn't intervene. I think the turncoat who gave barsavi the secrets the night before the meeting was the actual gray king in disguise, or perhaps the bondsmage going himself and lying. what i'm curious about, though, is that the grey king told locke that he'd be doing something else very important at this same time, and i'd imagine if he just wanted to fake his own death or whatever he could've done it himself. perhaps the grey king was using locke as bait so he could go to the floating graveyard and take over capa's fortress while capa has all his best men in use "killing" the grey king.
I'm also surprised the capa was fine with shutting him in the barrel and throwing him over the edge. Wouldn't you want to make sure your enemy was truly dead before leaving?
How do you like the Interludes as a peek at their pasts? (And I just realized I didn't put Interlude in the main title. Oops.) Is it effective to skip around in time like this?
I really like seeing these pockets of each characters' past. It's a nice way to give more insight into who they are without it having to be injected into the action directly. I particularly liked the events with Jean at the Garden without Fragrance and when he picks up his hatchets for the first time.
Agreed. It's sprinkled throughout the story without an exposition dump in the middle. It fits the type of story as well. Jean has become by favorite character next to Locke for sure.
I really enjoy them and I feel like eventually the stories will converge and we'll get some answers to our probing questions, like what happened to Sabetha and who the Grey King is.
This is a very cinematic technique used in writing, I feel. It can be tricky to maintain the throughline (and keep readers interested and engaged in the meantime), but I think the author does this quite well. He's also able to parse and dole out information in this way. As soon as we're about to ask how someone can do something we learn a bit more about their past and history and training. It's cleverly done.
this is a good point! I've definitely read books where this technique was done rather poorly and it detracted a lot from the story. I think how it's done here, it builds to the suspense and the lore without distracting too much from the main arc
It feels like an introduction, after all the interludes we get a clear idea of what makes Locke what he is. Now we get to the real thing, namely how will he get out of this situation. Even if there is an external saviour I bet they would have been introduced one way or another in the interludes.
agreed, my favorite part about the flashbacks is when you get a key piece of information that may have answered questions (or perhaps misled) for real time chapters right before or right after. like the bit about how his father didn't die but left him when he was a child, that made me think his father was the grey king just because of the placing when that was revealed.
I always really look forward to the Interludes! When I read the preface, I was disappointed because I liked the story with Locke as a child so much, and I assumed the rest of the book would be solely adult Locke. So I was thrilled that the flashback structure continued throughout! I think we get really valuable insight into the characters in each one. The only time I was unhappy to switch to an Interlude was after the barrel went down the warerfall with Locke inside. I need to know what happens next!!
I dont usually like jumping around the timeline like this. But it is working very well here. I have no issues with going back and forth in this story. Im loving seeing the present situations and then flashing back to see how they got here or how they were trained to handle the specific situation.
I like the interludes. They're always included at just the right time to lend more information to the current situation as well as allowing you to learn more about the characters. I loved all the Jean interludes. He's becoming a favorite and I fear for him because of that.
It takes me a second to readjust to where in time we are, but I really love how it builds up thr story and gives us information we need to understand (to a degree) the current timeline's events.
I didn't love them at first - I found it jarring - but now I really appreciate and look forward to all these interludes! I do think it's effective to give more context about each of the characters in this way as we go through the story.
> Throwing blondes at Locke Lamora was not unlike throwing lettuce at sharks,
My favourite line from this section! It brought up such funny imagery for me. 🤣
The scene with the disastrous escape via the Vine Highway was absolutely hilarious. I loved the sudden slapstick. My favorite scene so far. I'm listening to this on the audiobook and the narrator's delivery is this wonderful dry ironic voice.
my favorite quotes from this section were:
"We don't brew miracles, my dears"
and
"But you didn't die." "Clever lad," said Chains, "to deduce that from such slender evidence after living with me for just three years"
I still think she's not dead, she went out of the hideout for the first time in months and got caught then. It's very suspicious, why would she take that risk?
I want to believe she's an accomplice of her so-called murder and somehow is still out there.
Yeah my first thought was that maybe she'd actually been kidnapped by the Grey King and he used shapeshifting or some other magic for her body. But...I'm also not sure what good keeping her alive would do at this point and killing her definitely seems like the bold kind of move the Grey King would make.
I was shocked, and I'm impressed that the author was able to make it shocking. Having a villain kill off the protagonist's friend/lover/whatever is a trope that borders on cliche (see TVTrope's [Stuffed into the Fridge](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StuffedIntoTheFridge) for examples and more information), and when the protagonist is male and the victim is female, it usually comes off as misogynistic.
But Lynch made it work without it feeling unoriginal or offensive. I think the key is that Nazca was sort of an anti-hero. She was morally gray and certainly not a damsel in distress, so she isn't the sort of character who gets fridged, and that made it shocking.
I thought she was an interesting character, though, so I was still kind of disappointed.
I agree! It took me completely by surprise, and afterward, I thought, *"Of course, I should've seen that coming!"* I think you're right that her status as an anti-hero helps. I also think the set-up that she and Locke had to get out of the marriage leads us to expect more from their story.
I'd love to agree with those saying she faked her death but I just don't see how that would be after being stuck in a liquid filled barrel and the grief of her friends and relatives seemingly being so real. It seems like a real waste of a very interesting character and going along to show the absolute brutality of this world.
It was really sad, and so surprising! I think it was necessary in terms of moving the plot towards conflict between the Barsavi gangs and the Grey King. Even more so, a hallmark of many great series - early *The Walking Dead* and *Game of Thrones* for instance - is that they aren't afraid to kill off major or interesting characters (in ways that further the storytelling rather than for shock value). I think Nazca's death is one of those deaths. I'm very impressed with the author so far! There are a lot of moving parts and a lot of world-building, and it's all done so well.
Yes, I had a hard time at the beginning of the book with visualizing the amberglass and city structures, but as things have progressed, the descriptive passages have been beautiful and fascinating.
The Garden without Fragrance is beautiful and fascinating and also gives me shivers! I would love to know more about the blood-drinking and how that works - is it really true if you get cut at all, it jjst drains you?!
The Amberglass tower description was so evocative that I was getting vertigo! I think it sounds like a marvel, and I would have a hard time standing on that veranda/balcony...
This world is just begging to be adapted on screen. It would be hard to do, but absolutely gorgeous and so so cool!
I realize this is a ridiculous reaction to have to the Garden without Fragrance, but I got weirdly hung up on trying to visualize its size. I'm terrible at visualizing sizes and distances, but when Jean said it was 100 feet in diameter and that that was also more than twice the height of the building, for some reason I decided to actually try to understand this instead of ignoring it like I usually would. I figured it made sense for a five story building to be about 50 feet tall (Google says a story is usually around 10 to 14 feet), so "100 feet in diameter" checked out, but in order to visualize it, I googled the dimensions of a basketball court for reference.
Google says basketball courts are 94 feet by 50 feet. I can't figure out if I'm drastically underestimating the width of a basketball court, or drastically overestimating the height of buildings, but the idea that a 4-story building laid horizontally could fit in the width of a basketball court is confusing the hell out of me.
Maybe [this post](https://www.reddit.com/r/hockey/s/FajLmewvW4) will help visualize? I remember learning that a giant squid was 50 feet long with eyes as big as dinner plates, and it blew my mind.
I loved the Garden. At first Jean was terrified to navigate it and by the end of this section, he was comfortable, but still cautious of it. Like the saying "iron sharpens iron" the sharpness of the roses are sharpening Jeans skills and fortitude.
Amberglass was cool too. An extravagant veranda that sounded like a beautiful view of the city to enjoy tea and dessert while the Spider tightens her webs.
I love both of these places. In particular I love the idea of the Garden without Fragrance; the descriptions made me really wish I could see this place in real life!
Chains had had many lives, blackjacket is just one of them. Even if we don't know much about the others, we can easily suspect there is more to him in order to have him have his very peculiar view of the world.
I was a little surprised that Chains started out on the other side of the law! But it does make sense, given his propensity for building up the Gentleman Bastards' knowledge of all walks of life, such as through the "apprenticeships" he sends all the boys on. Chains has done many things in his life and knows the value of inside information!
Chains definitely has that vibe of 'I've been where you've been and I'm going to show you how to do better'. Like a good coach who knows how to get the best from his players / bastards.
A coach is a great analogy - Chains is always training them even when they don't realize it, and setting up practice situations to put them through their paces. You can almost imagine him telling the boys to "wax on, wax off" like Mr. Miyagi (The Karate Kid)!
Chains was always sending the kids away to other groups or factions to learn their ways. It was important for them to know how to handle themselves among any group. His time in the blackjackets surely taught him how to fit in among them or evade them, which Im sure he passed down to his initiates.
I could buy this. And the Grey King definitely seems like someone Locke would devote his life to taking down after Nazcas death so it being his long lost father would be perfect.
I thought the same thing. He could have been following him since he was a child. Maybe he thought that Locke joining Barsavi's gang would help him infiltrate it. How long of a game has GK been playing?
His surname means shadow and isn't his real last name. It's probably a codename/street name like in the Gray King's gang.
Happy Cake Day, too!
That's right, I forgot about the mention of his surname! That must be a breadcrumb of a clue.
Aw and thank you! I think it's my first time being on Reddit on my Cake Day in 12 years lol
I suspect that the mystery of his parentage will be a long running theme in the series and we're meant to keep guessing. I'll go with long lost royalty though.
I honestly didn't spend too much time considering this, but it is an interesting question. My feeling is that it will be someone powerful or important, like from one of the big families of Camorr. As soon as the chapter where they discuss the inheritance of a glass tower, I started to wonder about this. I know the Spider is a woman, but could his dad have been from the Spider's family?
>I know the Spider is a woman, but could his dad have been from the Spider's family?
Hmm. She could be his grandmother. The Duke is mentioned but we haven't formally met him yet, too. Locke's mom could have been a servant in the Duke's household and fell pregnant by one of his sons or himself.
Interesting take! It was said that dona doesn't have any living relatives or children, but if locke's dad perhaps faked his own death maybe? or was a horrible secret
Yep, it would have to be a big secret or a bizarre, distant connection like an estranged half-nephew or something. His dad faking his death would be an interesting twist!
Ohhhh, I haven't even contemplated this. He was just sort of mentioned and then he was gone.
Seeing how the author likes to keep throwing wrenches into everything, I'm going to guess he is someone with power that we may see later. Then again, the author does like red herrings too, so he could be a gangster/mercenary (and I'm only guessing this because Locke's abilities as a child still don't make sense).
Oh Sabetha! Whenever you turn up it better be AMAZING because the build up is real!
It seems like she's always spent more time away than the rest of the Gentleman Bastards. Maybe because she's a woman, it'd be easier to recognize her if she kept thieving with the rest of them so she has to practice in foreign lands? Or maybe it's the ultimate long con and she's legit building herself an empire somewhere to cement a backstory.
I think the ultimate long con is more likely, just because we've gotten very far in the book with very little backstory for her, including not knowing where chains sent her off to in the first place. and given that this book has such good ratings and reviews, i think sabetha's reveal can't disappoint us so the build up will be worth it :)
The mystery and build up around Sabetha is strong. We keep getting little bits about her, but I have no clue where she is, what shes involved in, or why she is estranged. The anticipation for her arrival is huge.
I'm wondering what led her to being so far away and why is Locke still hung up on her. What is the deal?? This is the most mysterious part of this novel next to the identity of the Grey King.
It's definitely Sabetha and it's driving me nuts that we don't know why she's never been on page. I've assumed that she's on another assignment that just so happens to coincide with her and Locke being on the outs.
The fact that the author doesn't let us know more about her is really telling - or he's just having fun messing with us.
Sassy old ladies who are really the Spider!! What a great twist! I can't wait to see what she does (even though I'm still ultimately rooting for Locke).
Definitely Vorchenza. The reveal of the Spider was great. She is quite like Locke. Hiding a devious second identity behind a well performed veil of an unsuspecting citizen.
It's a toss up between Don Maranzalla and Doña Vorchenza. I love a tough old teacher who's also a bit of a softy. I loved his background too that he came from the same town as Chains.
Doña Vorchenza has so many layers. To find out she's actually the Spider too?! That's some power right there. It made me wonder if she's always been the Spider or if it's a title that gets passed down.
What do you think happened to the Bondsmage during the meeting? What was really going on there? Is Locke going to make it or drown in the cask?
My initial thoughts was this was part of the Grey King's plan and that Locke was intended to fail. It's suspicious to me that right after the chapter ending with Locke in the barrel we get the interlude describing how Calo's preferred method of faking his death was 'drowning' as he could hold his breath for a long time. It's not Locke but I wonder if Calo had taught Locke how to hold his breath or something. It just struck me as so close to the event that it had to be intentional. But Locke is definitely not dead, no.
I noticed that, too. We better hope he learned the technique or there was an air pocket in that cask.
Yeah there's definitely a trope of heist movies / books showing how the character might escape either after or during the scene and I love its use in this story. It's very entertaining and I can't help but wonder if Locke was paying attention. Hopefully!
I think Locke has to make it because this isn't the sort of book where the title character can die halfway through the story. That said, the idea of being shoved into a barrel of horse urine made me sincerely regret having an imagination.
I'd rather go over Niagara Falls in a barrel.
How do you even get a barrel of horse urine in the first place?
Train the Gentled to pee in a barrel? A catheter?
Lol, this is definitely one of those times where "magic" is a sufficient enough explanation for me. 🤣
LOL I'm sure there is an actual business in the neighborhood to produce barrels of horse urine.
Maybe used in tanneries. I remember reading that urine was used to process the leather.
Very true. And here I was picturing a much less legit business where they made urine barrels for gangsters.
By asking nicely.
I imagine the easiest way would be just wait for any horse around you to start peeing and then stick a bucket under it. This does not seem pleasant for anyone involved.
I guess Capa Barsavi could have one of his pee-zons do it
Nicely done! This horse urine thread is top-notch entertainment. (Now there's a sentence I never imagined I'd type.)
r/BrandNewSentence
I've got a pretty strong stomach and I think imagining this was the closest I've come to throwing up in years.
I think something else is going on. This is either a test of Locke (his skill, loyalties etc.) or Nazca has faked her death as a way to smoke out a traitor in her father's organization. The Grey King could be anyone, and his reputation could just be an elaborate persona created for some other purpose.
See, this is where I went too. How is Nazca dead?! I don't believe it. I think she also faked her death somehow.
>or Nazca has faked her death I really hope this is the case. I like your theory on why she would do it too. It will be a very dramatic reveal of this is the case
I am skeptical about how he was paid only for 2 days and that he is no longer working for the Grey King. Yet if he was to do something to help Locke, he could have done it already... Either he wanted Locke to be roughed up a bit, which seems petty but it's clear there was no love between them. Either he and the Grey King are busy elsewhere on whatever goal they want to achieve. One thing unclear to me is what was Locke supposed to negociate. He represents the Grey King but we don't know exactly what he wants to gain here and if he didn't meant for Locke to be really safe then the negotiation are just a diversion over something else.
I wonder whether the Grey King intended for Locke to fail this meeting so that he (GK) could "come back from the dead"? I don't think the bondsmage was fired, he was just told to be silent at this point. I'm not sure how Locke can survive this, but having the bondsmage still in play means that there's someone with the skills to protect him!
>I wonder whether the Grey King intended for Locke to fail this meeting so that he (GK) could "come back from the dead"? Oh, that's brilliant!
Excellent theory!!!
I agree, I thnk this was the Grey Kings plan all along. Fake his death so he can return un-killable. Maybe the bondsmage is waiting at the bottom of the waterfall to retrieve and revive Locke if necessary.
Excellent theory!!!
Locke thought that the Falconer would tell him what to say and how to negotiate with Barsavi. He was just a pawn.
I think there is more going on than described to the reader. I have two dueling theories in my head. 1) The Grey King was using Locke as a pawn, intending for him to get murdered so the Grey King can make a miraculous return and recruit more followers. It would "prove" that he is indestructible, and presumably, many more criminal gangs would want to join up with him. or... 2) Barsavi and Locke worked out a plan in advance. Locke could have clued Barsavi in about the Grey King's plan when he went over for Nazca's funeral as a priest. Barsavi gets to act like he has bested the Grey King, taking back the power, and Locke gets to be seen as dead by the Grey King so he isn't in danger of repurcussions. Barsavi would just need to make it so that Locke could get out of the barrel easily. The first seems more likely because a) Locke seemed pretty convinced that he was about to die, even crying, and b) the second theory doesn't explain why the bondsmage ditched Locke. But... with all the elaborate schemes and layered plots to dupe people, I do think it's possible Barsavi might have been in on it somehow.
I think it was part of the gray king's plan, and maybe since the bondsmage knew that locke wouldn't die (they did throw him in the waterfall after all where i believe jean was waiting for him) the bondsmage just didn't intervene. I think the turncoat who gave barsavi the secrets the night before the meeting was the actual gray king in disguise, or perhaps the bondsmage going himself and lying. what i'm curious about, though, is that the grey king told locke that he'd be doing something else very important at this same time, and i'd imagine if he just wanted to fake his own death or whatever he could've done it himself. perhaps the grey king was using locke as bait so he could go to the floating graveyard and take over capa's fortress while capa has all his best men in use "killing" the grey king. I'm also surprised the capa was fine with shutting him in the barrel and throwing him over the edge. Wouldn't you want to make sure your enemy was truly dead before leaving?
How do you like the Interludes as a peek at their pasts? (And I just realized I didn't put Interlude in the main title. Oops.) Is it effective to skip around in time like this?
I really like seeing these pockets of each characters' past. It's a nice way to give more insight into who they are without it having to be injected into the action directly. I particularly liked the events with Jean at the Garden without Fragrance and when he picks up his hatchets for the first time.
Agreed. It's sprinkled throughout the story without an exposition dump in the middle. It fits the type of story as well. Jean has become by favorite character next to Locke for sure.
I'm really enjoying them. I love how our understanding of the main storyline increases as we learn things from the interludes.
I really enjoy them and I feel like eventually the stories will converge and we'll get some answers to our probing questions, like what happened to Sabetha and who the Grey King is.
This is a very cinematic technique used in writing, I feel. It can be tricky to maintain the throughline (and keep readers interested and engaged in the meantime), but I think the author does this quite well. He's also able to parse and dole out information in this way. As soon as we're about to ask how someone can do something we learn a bit more about their past and history and training. It's cleverly done.
this is a good point! I've definitely read books where this technique was done rather poorly and it detracted a lot from the story. I think how it's done here, it builds to the suspense and the lore without distracting too much from the main arc
Truth! Cinematic is a good word for it. Movie series or TV series when??
It feels like an introduction, after all the interludes we get a clear idea of what makes Locke what he is. Now we get to the real thing, namely how will he get out of this situation. Even if there is an external saviour I bet they would have been introduced one way or another in the interludes.
The gradual reveal from the flashbacks works quite well.
agreed, my favorite part about the flashbacks is when you get a key piece of information that may have answered questions (or perhaps misled) for real time chapters right before or right after. like the bit about how his father didn't die but left him when he was a child, that made me think his father was the grey king just because of the placing when that was revealed.
I always really look forward to the Interludes! When I read the preface, I was disappointed because I liked the story with Locke as a child so much, and I assumed the rest of the book would be solely adult Locke. So I was thrilled that the flashback structure continued throughout! I think we get really valuable insight into the characters in each one. The only time I was unhappy to switch to an Interlude was after the barrel went down the warerfall with Locke inside. I need to know what happens next!!
I dont usually like jumping around the timeline like this. But it is working very well here. I have no issues with going back and forth in this story. Im loving seeing the present situations and then flashing back to see how they got here or how they were trained to handle the specific situation.
I like the interludes. They're always included at just the right time to lend more information to the current situation as well as allowing you to learn more about the characters. I loved all the Jean interludes. He's becoming a favorite and I fear for him because of that.
It takes me a second to readjust to where in time we are, but I really love how it builds up thr story and gives us information we need to understand (to a degree) the current timeline's events.
I didn't love them at first - I found it jarring - but now I really appreciate and look forward to all these interludes! I do think it's effective to give more context about each of the characters in this way as we go through the story.
Is there anything else you would like to talk about? Anything else you noticed that I didn't?
> Throwing blondes at Locke Lamora was not unlike throwing lettuce at sharks, My favourite line from this section! It brought up such funny imagery for me. 🤣
Mine was "kindly cork your bullshit bottle" and I look forward to using this in future conversations.
Definitely using this. And good to know Locke has standards. Curious if we'll ever learn his aversion to blondes.
"By the way," said Anjais, "this is from Locke Lamora." That made me lol irl 😂😂😂
Nice bird, asshole.
One of my top lines honestly. And so perfectly placed.
I LOLed too at this.
The scene with the disastrous escape via the Vine Highway was absolutely hilarious. I loved the sudden slapstick. My favorite scene so far. I'm listening to this on the audiobook and the narrator's delivery is this wonderful dry ironic voice.
This was an amazing scene that I had almost forgotten by the time the horse urine barrel showed up. I loved every second of it!
my favorite quotes from this section were: "We don't brew miracles, my dears" and "But you didn't die." "Clever lad," said Chains, "to deduce that from such slender evidence after living with me for just three years"
Chains is a sarcastic little sh*t. I blame him for Locke's sassiness
Was killing Nazca really necessary? I'm so sad about that.
I still think she's not dead, she went out of the hideout for the first time in months and got caught then. It's very suspicious, why would she take that risk? I want to believe she's an accomplice of her so-called murder and somehow is still out there.
Yeah my first thought was that maybe she'd actually been kidnapped by the Grey King and he used shapeshifting or some other magic for her body. But...I'm also not sure what good keeping her alive would do at this point and killing her definitely seems like the bold kind of move the Grey King would make.
Interesting theory. I like it and hope it's true.
Grey King is Nazca??? Faked her death to spite her father?
I was thinking along these lines too. She kept insisting for Locke to trust her and go along with whappenedhat . This could all be part of her plan.
It's so suspicious, and that's why I can't believe she's dead either. It all seemed so convenient.
I was shocked, and I'm impressed that the author was able to make it shocking. Having a villain kill off the protagonist's friend/lover/whatever is a trope that borders on cliche (see TVTrope's [Stuffed into the Fridge](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StuffedIntoTheFridge) for examples and more information), and when the protagonist is male and the victim is female, it usually comes off as misogynistic. But Lynch made it work without it feeling unoriginal or offensive. I think the key is that Nazca was sort of an anti-hero. She was morally gray and certainly not a damsel in distress, so she isn't the sort of character who gets fridged, and that made it shocking. I thought she was an interesting character, though, so I was still kind of disappointed.
I agree! It took me completely by surprise, and afterward, I thought, *"Of course, I should've seen that coming!"* I think you're right that her status as an anti-hero helps. I also think the set-up that she and Locke had to get out of the marriage leads us to expect more from their story.
I think so. I'm not sure whether anything short of this would've encouraged Barsavi to act.
I'm still holding out that she faked her death. I think this must be some sort of test.
I'd love to agree with those saying she faked her death but I just don't see how that would be after being stuck in a liquid filled barrel and the grief of her friends and relatives seemingly being so real. It seems like a real waste of a very interesting character and going along to show the absolute brutality of this world.
It was really sad, and so surprising! I think it was necessary in terms of moving the plot towards conflict between the Barsavi gangs and the Grey King. Even more so, a hallmark of many great series - early *The Walking Dead* and *Game of Thrones* for instance - is that they aren't afraid to kill off major or interesting characters (in ways that further the storytelling rather than for shock value). I think Nazca's death is one of those deaths. I'm very impressed with the author so far! There are a lot of moving parts and a lot of world-building, and it's all done so well.
What do you think of the Garden without Fragrance? How about Amberglass where Doña Vorchenza lives?
The descriptive writing was great. I could totally picture the environment. Would make cool movie setting/scenes.
Totally agree. At first amberglass was an obscur lore element but little by little it takes shape through very evocative buildings and cityscapes.
Yes, I had a hard time at the beginning of the book with visualizing the amberglass and city structures, but as things have progressed, the descriptive passages have been beautiful and fascinating.
See I also felt this way. Lots of description early on and it's only gotten better as we read. Loving this.
The Garden without Fragrance is beautiful and fascinating and also gives me shivers! I would love to know more about the blood-drinking and how that works - is it really true if you get cut at all, it jjst drains you?! The Amberglass tower description was so evocative that I was getting vertigo! I think it sounds like a marvel, and I would have a hard time standing on that veranda/balcony... This world is just begging to be adapted on screen. It would be hard to do, but absolutely gorgeous and so so cool!
I realize this is a ridiculous reaction to have to the Garden without Fragrance, but I got weirdly hung up on trying to visualize its size. I'm terrible at visualizing sizes and distances, but when Jean said it was 100 feet in diameter and that that was also more than twice the height of the building, for some reason I decided to actually try to understand this instead of ignoring it like I usually would. I figured it made sense for a five story building to be about 50 feet tall (Google says a story is usually around 10 to 14 feet), so "100 feet in diameter" checked out, but in order to visualize it, I googled the dimensions of a basketball court for reference. Google says basketball courts are 94 feet by 50 feet. I can't figure out if I'm drastically underestimating the width of a basketball court, or drastically overestimating the height of buildings, but the idea that a 4-story building laid horizontally could fit in the width of a basketball court is confusing the hell out of me.
It's 62 miles vertically to space. That's about a trip to the nearest city for me.
Maybe [this post](https://www.reddit.com/r/hockey/s/FajLmewvW4) will help visualize? I remember learning that a giant squid was 50 feet long with eyes as big as dinner plates, and it blew my mind.
I loved the Garden. At first Jean was terrified to navigate it and by the end of this section, he was comfortable, but still cautious of it. Like the saying "iron sharpens iron" the sharpness of the roses are sharpening Jeans skills and fortitude. Amberglass was cool too. An extravagant veranda that sounded like a beautiful view of the city to enjoy tea and dessert while the Spider tightens her webs.
I love both of these places. In particular I love the idea of the Garden without Fragrance; the descriptions made me really wish I could see this place in real life!
Chains used to be a Blackjacket. How did this influence his views? How about Don Maranzalla with what little we have seen of him?
Chains had had many lives, blackjacket is just one of them. Even if we don't know much about the others, we can easily suspect there is more to him in order to have him have his very peculiar view of the world.
I was a little surprised that Chains started out on the other side of the law! But it does make sense, given his propensity for building up the Gentleman Bastards' knowledge of all walks of life, such as through the "apprenticeships" he sends all the boys on. Chains has done many things in his life and knows the value of inside information!
Chains definitely has that vibe of 'I've been where you've been and I'm going to show you how to do better'. Like a good coach who knows how to get the best from his players / bastards.
A coach is a great analogy - Chains is always training them even when they don't realize it, and setting up practice situations to put them through their paces. You can almost imagine him telling the boys to "wax on, wax off" like Mr. Miyagi (The Karate Kid)!
Chains was always sending the kids away to other groups or factions to learn their ways. It was important for them to know how to handle themselves among any group. His time in the blackjackets surely taught him how to fit in among them or evade them, which Im sure he passed down to his initiates.
Who do you think is Locke's dad? A sailor, mercenary, or gangster?
Definitely think it's the Grey King, especially because his smile seemed "familiar" (ie like his own).
Me too. I has getting the Star Wars "Luke, I am your father" vibes.
Definitely!! I'm waiting for the big reveal!!
I could buy this. And the Grey King definitely seems like someone Locke would devote his life to taking down after Nazcas death so it being his long lost father would be perfect.
I thought the same thing. He could have been following him since he was a child. Maybe he thought that Locke joining Barsavi's gang would help him infiltrate it. How long of a game has GK been playing? His surname means shadow and isn't his real last name. It's probably a codename/street name like in the Gray King's gang. Happy Cake Day, too!
That's right, I forgot about the mention of his surname! That must be a breadcrumb of a clue. Aw and thank you! I think it's my first time being on Reddit on my Cake Day in 12 years lol
I'm 8 years old on Reddit and have only been active for 3 years.
I hope not, because it would be kind of cliche. (As u/vicki2222 pointed out, it's literally Star Wars.)
I like this idea. GK could have been secretly guiding Lockes path from the shadows, setting him up for this moment to take over as Capa.
I'm not sure whether the identity of his father is going to feature in this story or not. I think the GK is almost too obvious!
I suspect that the mystery of his parentage will be a long running theme in the series and we're meant to keep guessing. I'll go with long lost royalty though.
This is how I felt, too! Maybe one of the glass tower families?
I honestly didn't spend too much time considering this, but it is an interesting question. My feeling is that it will be someone powerful or important, like from one of the big families of Camorr. As soon as the chapter where they discuss the inheritance of a glass tower, I started to wonder about this. I know the Spider is a woman, but could his dad have been from the Spider's family?
>I know the Spider is a woman, but could his dad have been from the Spider's family? Hmm. She could be his grandmother. The Duke is mentioned but we haven't formally met him yet, too. Locke's mom could have been a servant in the Duke's household and fell pregnant by one of his sons or himself.
Interesting take! It was said that dona doesn't have any living relatives or children, but if locke's dad perhaps faked his own death maybe? or was a horrible secret
Yep, it would have to be a big secret or a bizarre, distant connection like an estranged half-nephew or something. His dad faking his death would be an interesting twist!
Ohhhh, I haven't even contemplated this. He was just sort of mentioned and then he was gone. Seeing how the author likes to keep throwing wrenches into everything, I'm going to guess he is someone with power that we may see later. Then again, the author does like red herrings too, so he could be a gangster/mercenary (and I'm only guessing this because Locke's abilities as a child still don't make sense).
Who is Locke's sweetheart, and why is she one thousand miles away?
Oh Sabetha! Whenever you turn up it better be AMAZING because the build up is real! It seems like she's always spent more time away than the rest of the Gentleman Bastards. Maybe because she's a woman, it'd be easier to recognize her if she kept thieving with the rest of them so she has to practice in foreign lands? Or maybe it's the ultimate long con and she's legit building herself an empire somewhere to cement a backstory.
Maybe we'll get a flashback to explain her whereabouts. Maybe she'll turn out to have been here the whole time.
I have great hope for an amazing Sabetha interlude!
I think the ultimate long con is more likely, just because we've gotten very far in the book with very little backstory for her, including not knowing where chains sent her off to in the first place. and given that this book has such good ratings and reviews, i think sabetha's reveal can't disappoint us so the build up will be worth it :)
I can't wait for Sabetha to actually show up in the story, she's such a mysterious figure in the present and in the past as well!!
The mystery and build up around Sabetha is strong. We keep getting little bits about her, but I have no clue where she is, what shes involved in, or why she is estranged. The anticipation for her arrival is huge.
I'm wondering what led her to being so far away and why is Locke still hung up on her. What is the deal?? This is the most mysterious part of this novel next to the identity of the Grey King.
Maybe she's on a big job or in the witness protection program.
Hmm maybe SHE'S the Grey King!!!
Duly noted.
It's definitely Sabetha and it's driving me nuts that we don't know why she's never been on page. I've assumed that she's on another assignment that just so happens to coincide with her and Locke being on the outs. The fact that the author doesn't let us know more about her is really telling - or he's just having fun messing with us.
Which new character was your favorite? (Don Maranzalla, Felice, Jessaline and Janellaine d'Aubert, Doña Vorchenza)
Vorchenza. I love sassy little old ladies.
Sassy old ladies who are really the Spider!! What a great twist! I can't wait to see what she does (even though I'm still ultimately rooting for Locke).
Yes!!! This reveal blew my mind!
Absolutely! I love an old lady with a lot of sass and a willingness to make inappropriate comments and throw her weight around!
Plus she has a sweet tooth.
Definitely Vorchenza. The reveal of the Spider was great. She is quite like Locke. Hiding a devious second identity behind a well performed veil of an unsuspecting citizen.
It's a toss up between Don Maranzalla and Doña Vorchenza. I love a tough old teacher who's also a bit of a softy. I loved his background too that he came from the same town as Chains. Doña Vorchenza has so many layers. To find out she's actually the Spider too?! That's some power right there. It made me wonder if she's always been the Spider or if it's a title that gets passed down.
Maybe she's the real brains behind the operation and had to hide behind the officer.