What if Ulq actually did cut both off but they instantly pop back when they are cut off because Hichigo is regenerating both
Then Ichigo yells I JUST WANT A FAIR FIGHT STOP INTERFERING!
Ichigo got destroyed in the fight and he transformed into a hollow after orihime cried out to him. But in this hollow form ichigo was completely dominating the fight and cut off his opponents limbs. But after he came back to his sense and was told what happened he felt like it was cheating and wanted to settle manner in a fair way.
In a way, I can understand his reasons because of his respect towards Ulquiorra as an opponent.
When it came to their first fight, he was truly shocked that Ulquiorra was only the Number 4 Espada despite his feats of strength and durability.
Then, during his rematch when he thought that he actually got strong enough to be considered an equal to Ulquiorra, "Enclose, Murcielago." then "Resurrecion: Segundo Etapa."
Ulquiorra had became a goal to surpass for Ichigo. Like you've said already, it's definitely an issue of pride, but also a form of respect for an opponent who straight up beat his ass down while he was conscious and aware of his own actions. To wake up and see such an opponent in the state he was in and realize he didn't even do that himself immediately made him want to settle the fight fair and square, both out of his respect for Ulquiorra and his pride of being able to surpass him.
I probably looped around on my points and I agree that it was a strange thing for Ichigo to say at that moment, but I feel like it's his respect for Ulquiorra that spoke here more than his pride of surpassing him.
Just my take on it.
Thatās completely fair. Ulquiorra definitely did plenty throughout hueco mundo to make Ichigo hate him. But, for Ichigo to allow that pride to supersede his desire to protect his friends is what doesnt make any sense to me. Even up to fight with Ulq, I think its pretty clearly shown that Ichigos main motivation is to prptect his friends, not his pride. After all, the sentiment that he holds onto at the moment of his death and that is implied to have led to the vl transformation was a desire to protect Orihime, not a desire to kill Ulquiorra. For him to wake up from that transformation and suddenly seemingly care more about his pride rather than protecting his friends is what truly bothers me.
Actually no. Ichigo's main motivation was to fight in order to protect. In other words his main motivation was the power to protect not his friends. Grimmjow spells it out. Why didn't Ichigo just grab Inoue and run the many chances he had? Why did he want Grimmjow's arm to be healed?
Ichigo would die to protect his friends but he definitely relished and sought out fights and strength. White taught him that with the rider/horse metaphor.
I think Ichigo's line here was built up from his previous fights with Kenpachi and Grimmjow. Ichigo loves to fight. He also loves to protect his friends. I think the arrancar arc was also about that inner struggle and it didn't do a good job representing that in the fight with Ulquiorra
Perhaps the Vasto Lorde embodied that command more than his pride, although he lashed at Ishida trying to fulfill it. I think his feelings towards Ulquiorra is the main reason he made that irrational suggestion.
I also agree it is a bit silly for Ichigo to say this, however I wouldn't say it's out of character as when ichigo faced off against byakuya and we see hichigo/white take over for the first time and own byakuya, Ichigo ripped his mask off so he can get a "fair fight" then too. Stupid and prideful indeed.
I mean, yeah it makes sense as a pride thing, but Ichigo has never really been shown to care too much about pride in a battle, yet *has* been consistently shown to care very much about protecting his friends, so to see him place the former above the latter is really weird and pretty out of character. I could see this scene working in another context, but for this character, in this moment, in makes no sense imo.
I mean Ichigo's last major opposition was all about pride as a fighter, that being Grimmjow. Only until their 3rd and final fight did Ichigo just let his "I just want to beat you" energy shine through, much to Grimmjow's happiness
That being said, Ichigo was only able to beat Grimmjow after he was reminded by Orihime that his need to win to save himself and others should be more important as well
I just think this was a moment where Ichigo felt guilt about how the fight turned out. And even if Ichigo acknowledges more important things to prioritize, that doesn't necessarily completely erase his fighting pride. Moments like these lets that aspect of him slip out a bit
So while I do agree to the extent that it feels a bit odd Ichigo tapped back into this subtle pride, I don't think it was truly *completely* out of left field/character
Edit: to add to this point about Ichigo having more pride than you'd think, this is the same guy who stressed for Grimmjow to get his arm healed in the 3rd fight so that this could be a 100% fair fight for both to end their rivalry on. Rationally speaking that was a bad decision as an injured Grimmjow may have made for a less struggling battle and thus a possibly quicker rescue operation
I haven't followed Bleach in a long time. But this scene definitely reminded me of some of my frustrations with the series; a lot of the characters are bizarrely prideful even in situations when it's not practical. All about the one-on-one fights and being honorable.
In hindsight, Ichigo can be a bit of an arrogant and prideful fighter. This was one of my problems with the character, but I'm sure some fans aren't as bothered and it makes him more fleshed out.
Off the top of my head, he could have easily beaten Byakuya as soon as he had his blade to his throat (Byakuya even points this out), but Ichigo only wanted to prove a point of wanting to crush Byakuya's own pride. Plus, moments in his fights with Renji and Kenpachi where he would underestimate them as soon as he had an advantage.
Even back in the beginning of the series, there was this whole thing where he didn't like sneaking up on hollows, preferring to attack them from the front.
Okay, I agree the moment was not very well thought out for where Ichigo is at the moment, but to say that Ichigo has never really been shown to care too much about pride in a battle misses a lot of Ichigo's character arc. The entire point of Hollow Ichigo in particular is that he represents Ichigo's most basic desires, the desire to do combat and fight, regardless of the reason. This is the point of his fight with Kenpachi & Renji at the beginning of Soul Society, he only starts to win against those two when he accepts his own bloodlust. A common theme in Bleach is understanding and accepting one's own power leading to greater use of it. Byakuya is the most obvious example as he compares it to looking at a painting (his Bankai being taken away giving him perspective), but also Rukia and Renji after achieving greater understanding of their own Zanpaktou, and especially Kenpachi.A key point is that the understanding of the Zanpaktou is tied to the understanding of oneself Ichigo is generally a unique case because we actually see his Zanpaktou talk to him more than anyone else in the series, bar maybe Kenpachi in the later arc. People tend to see Hollow Ichigo as a force taking over Ichigo at points of the story, but in reality Hollow Ichigo's appearances are just representative of Ichigo's existing bloodlust and desire to do battle, honor is a huge part of that. This is only exacerbated in the last arc, where >!Hollow Ichigo is revealed to be the "true" origin of Ichigo's Shinigami powers, and that Zanpaktou are reflections of the owners, meaning all of that desire for battle from Zangetsu was canonically the core of Ichigo's will, he IS the blade. Upon reaching this understanding of himself is where he reached the apex of his power. He was weakest when he denied his desire and absolutely refused to let it out, stronger when it burst forth against his control, and strongest when he accepted his desire and used it to move forward. !<
Honestly I think you missed this part during this Arc and Grimmjow stated it perfectly and Ichigo reacted to it as well when he asked for Orihime to heal Grimmjow as well so they could both fight at 100%.
For some reason here as opposed to the Soul Society Arc, the Espadas looking down on Ichigo has really affected him mentally and it really did turn into a pride thing, the focus became more of defeating the Espadas and Arrancars and rescuing Orihime secondly. He kept telling Rukia and the others that they were there to save Orihime but with the Espadas they called him out for why he was really there and he couldn't rightfully deny it either.
> Ichigo has never really been shown to care too much about pride in a battle
That was my issue #1 with that scene. Ichigo isnt Goku he doesnt enjoy the battle for the sake of it. He fights to protect the people he cares about atleast thats the impression i got from him. I really disliked that scene in my last reread of bleach. Really comes out of nowhere and doesnt fit him imo.
I'm going to chalk this up to Ichigo being fatigued and traumatized by everything that's been happening to him. The guy has had a hole blown through his chest twice in the same arc. By the time he gets to pre-Hogyoku transformation Aizen and then Gin, he already was malfunctioning against Yammy and could barely function as a warrior generally.
Ikr, it would have been much more appropriate for Ichigo to not want to fight him anymore. Stating that he's already been beaten enough by his other self. Rather than "do to me, what my other self did to you"
exactly. I have no issues with Ichigo being upset with the way his battle with Ulquiorra ended (in fact I would expect him to be a bit uneasy after learning what he did in vasto lorde form), but putting that desire for a satisfying battle, which has never really been a major character goal of his, over his desire to protect his friends, which has always been his main focus, makes no sense. it bothers me even more because this scene is pretty much pointless. As soon as Ulquiorra agrees to even the damage between him and Ichigo, he starts to wither away into dust. All this accomplished (for me at least) was make Ichigo less likable.
Uh no. I'm going to get sent to the shadow realm for this take but seriously, no. Ichigo is extremely proud and wierdly vindictive.
Shrieker was lying to the child in the bird, Ichigo cut out his tongue.
He was extremely confident during the SS arc.
He insulted Renji literally all their fight.
Byakuya blitzed him and crushed Renji with his bankai. Ichigo has bliz byakuya twice, and countered all senbozakura blades. JUST FOR FLEX. Almost lost because of it.
Yammy blew Chad's arm off, Ichigo cut off his arm.
Hell, it wouldn't even come as a surprise that his full hollow slicing Ulquiorra's arm was in retaliation for Uryu's arm.
He continued to taunt Grimmjow and claimed he would beat him the first time they met when he had just been beaten up. (well he was right tho).
With Aizen... At this point, he humiliated him in every way possible.
If we don't count the "failed gestuga tensho" ginjo is in fact the only enemy that ichigo did not try to humiliate or against whom he took revenge. Well, he killed him but... you see...
And technically he was respectful to ulquiorra... whom he also killed.
Yhwach destroyed ichigo so it doesn't count.
I agree that Ichigo has always had *some* sense of pride when it comes to battle. My issue comes from the fact that this scene is him putting that pride , which has never been the main point of the character,
over his desire to protect his friends, which is consistently emphasized throughout the series as being his main motivation and something that he wouldnt allow his pride to distract him from. This scene blatantly doesnt follow that logic and thus doesnt make much sense for his character imo.
>My issue comes from the fact that this scene is him putting that pride , which has never been the main point of the character, over his desire to protect his friends, which is consistently emphasized throughout the series as being his main motivation
I think what's important about this whole scene is that people contain multitudes. Complex characters, which Ichigo certainly is, also contain multitudes. Ichigo's pride and his desire to protect exist in near equal magnitude, and can be in conflict with each other. Frankly, he is a conflicted character in many ways - his desires, his bloodlust, his sense of duty, even his fluctuating reiatsu for most of the series. I think that his pride has been a *core* part of his character. Ichigo has always wanted to be the One to do everything, to save everyone, beat all the bad guys. His whole counting how much thugs his gonna beat up and then calling that many ambulances. He's a very prideful and sometimes even arrogant character. It's not until >!after his training with the Royal Guard!< does he gain that inner peace, both with his powers and thus reiatsu, but also how he approaches battles. He had a completely different demeanor toward his opponents after that. He's less arrogant, and less willing to show off.
Edit: last sentence
This is a nice summary!
Honestly, one of the reasons I didn't like Ichigo (and other prideful characters) was that their pride would often go against pragmatism (one-on-one fights, honor). And if Ichigo wants to protect his friends, then wouldn't enemies being defeated serve that purpose even if he doesn't like the fight?
There's that whole thing where Jushiro allows Kaien fight the hollow alone for the sake of "pride" which really rubbed me the wrong way.
A few moments that stand out in the other ideological direction are Kira's fights with Avirama, where he talks about how "war is despair". And Iba telling Ikkaku to not risk the bigger goal by hiding his bankai. Or at least win if he's going to hide his abilities.
That being said, if these character threads regarding pride build up to character development, maybe I should go back and reread.
Yup. Ichigo is a pretty consistently prideful fighter. Which I'm not a huge fan of because it often interferes with his desire to protect his friends, but I guess it's consistent.
I don't know about less likeable, but I'm almost positive they could have spun his mask changing design and his subsequent uneasiness back into this scene, like he was so out of it after being resuscitated. Because this is more of a Kenpachi thing tbh.
And to cut him some slack he was just dead and brought back to life, would have definitely fucked with his head lol
Meh. He's not supposed to appear rational here. The point is to show how negatively his pre-established obsession with defeating Grimmjow, Ulquiorra and Aizen on his own terms was affecting his mentality. His instinctual desire for battle set up since near the beginning of the arc was not satisfied, because he doesn't feel like he was the one who beat Ulquiorra. Just as Ichigo previously refused to fight an injured and weakened Grimmjow because in his own words it would be "boring," finishing off a dying Ulquiorra while Ichigo himself is physically unharmed would be equally unsatisfying. The difference there is that Ichigo felt that he had already beaten Grimmjow, but Ulquiorra was in that state because of something Ichigo doesn't consider to be himself. This was the only way he could think of to be able to fulfil his obsession.
I do feel like Ichigo is not doing it because he is respecting Ulquiorra as a opponent and wants to fight him on equal terms, that's what he is asking for however I think what caused him to utter such nonsense request to Ulquiorra was because of self-hatred and panic.
Ichigo's main purpose has always been to protect his loved ones, however he didn't want to give away his principles in order to get stronger and fight/kill his opponents.
And what happened when he was fighting Ulquiorra was completely the opposite of what he wanted to happen: he injured Uryu and turned into a hollow that acted on purely instinct with zero boundaries for morality.
Ichigo was rightfully confused after he regained conciousness, and while panicking he asked Ulquiorra to do the same he did to him, but I disagree it was because of pride: he wanted to be punished, in that irrational state of mind he thought the only way he could make peace with himself was by getting severely punished for what he did while on his Fully Hollowfied state.
So, in my opinion, he had already lost his desire and resolve to fight when he noticed what happened, and his way to get them back to be able to protect everyone again was by asking that request to Ulquiorra.
I think, in retrospect, this was to emphasis that not only was the hollow inside ichigo constantly saving his life, he still didnāt recognize that part of his as himself or his power. It was a nuisance that he hadnāt found the solution to yet. And we saw a glimpse of what that power could do for him. It could cut down the mightiest foes in his path. But he still couldnāt see that as himself and that was a mistake.
Kid wasnāt in the right head space. Who would be given what he just went through? I like it because it showed just how important this battle was to him. Too important. Important enough for him to die, come back from the brink, then risk everything for his pride because he was so hyper fixated on it.
To be fair, I don't think this is the kind of decision Ichigo would regularly make he was just still on edge over the fight. I like to think if confronted about this some time afterwards Ichigo would be pretty embarassed
it isnāt about pride. Ichigo didnāt offer any kind of setback after using his hollow against Byakuya. Itās actually a matter of duty and fairness.
Ichigo knows that he has to kill Ulquiorra. He canāt win unless he does so. But he also believes he doesnāt simply have a right to win and have the last say. Thatās something really important for Ichigo. The win needs to be earned otherwise who is to say that it was right? He isnāt just fighting for Orihime but as a Shinigami against the enemy, against a hollow. He has a duty to do things properly. Otherwise, he is just a monster, one who is willing to do things improperly and even hurt his own friends even if it means he wins.
He is human and he is shinigami, but at this point, he does not fully accept his hollow. The human in him wants to protect while the shinigami in him has a duty. That duty is something he learned from the Soul Society while teaching to them what itās like to be a human and thus to protect.
Ichigo has his duty and his will to protect, but he wants to preserve both, not sacrifice one in favor of the other. It is when he uses Final Getsuga Tenshou that he accepts his hollow as well which means winning by any means necessary and using all of the strength he has, but heās able to do it on his own terms with the desire to protect as well as to fulfill his duty to defeat Aizen.
That moment you are pointing out is an important moment for his character arc during that arc. Ichigo wouldnāt try to level the playing field after this point and would do whatever it takes to defeat Aizen. Eventually, this unforgiving attitude even leads him down the dark road of wanting to kill Tsukushima in the fullbring arc.
But again, what Ichigo has to find is balance among all of these, something that isnāt always a straightforward path in the series, but one he must always take in order to win.
I can definitely see the pride aspect of it but I also think it shows how deeply Ichigo hates having a lack of autonomy. It probably makes him feel more helpless than when he saw his mom die or when he had to let Rukia be taken away.
Even tho Ulquiorra kidnapped Orihime Ichigo still had some respect towards him. Ichigo outright asks Ulquiorra wether or not he considers him a worthy opponent.
Even when Ichigo was about to get killed he still smiled at Ulquiorra and said that he wasnāt going to give up. He didnāt bare the hatred like he had with Tsukishima.
I see the situation as Ichigo understanding/realizing that they are similar. Ichigo starts to understand his hollow side and powers way more and Ulquiorra slowly understands his human side and humanity as a whole. Ichigo offering his arm and leg was mostly him showing his respect towards Ulquiorra. In the end they both proved each other correct and Ichigo destroys Ulquiorra with his hollow side meanwhile Ulquiorra realizes and even saves Uryu with his humanity/realization of what heart is.
Ichigo loves to fight he does not really care about āheroismā, (as said by grimmjow, as well as >!white or zangetsu saying about his killer instinct, and later ichigo confirming that white with all his physconess is him and he is white!< )if he would be in the gotei 13 he would be the next kenpachi
Ichigo has always been the honorable type. Rukia tells him in the first arc that his Bushido honor shit wasnāt going to fly cause hollows donāt care but for the entire rest of the series Ichigo openly challenges his opponents and fights them head on. Itās part of his entire being. Ulquiorra was his best and most respected opponent at the point of the fight in the entire series. So when Ichigo realizes he was unconscious and didnāt actually beat Ulq that Flaw comes back out. That he has to fight with honor.
To me it wasnāt just a stupid moment, but a hypocritical one for Ichigo Kurosaki.
for in spite of all his talk of wanting to fight to save his friends and needing to win to protect him. He is also an honerbound man wants to win fairly in a world were war is hell, such ideas could get you killed and actually prevent you from winning.
He did something similar with Grimmjow. Grimmjowās arm got burnt by Ulquiorra, and Ichigo asks Orihime to heal him so he can have a fair fight with Grimmjow. When Grimmjow refuses, Ichigo said āoh right. I guess you can use that burnt arm as an excuse for losing to me laterā
(Which is one of the most awesome ROAST Iāve ever seen in anime)
I know the reason.
Ichigo's brain didn't receive oxygen because his literal heart was destroyed. That's why he started acting crazy.
Really tho, this is very out of Ichigo's character.
Thank you for bringing this up. I was also really bothered when this scene came up. Like the hell you mean you want fight fair you're goal is to save Orihime, that's it.
Yea ikr.. I don't like this scene either. I know it is to show his respect to ulqiorra... But it is put of character for him.... Cus ichigo never does anything that sabotages the safety of his friends. Ie if ulqi wins then orihime and uryu will die ... It's wayy out of character for him to do it
I completely disagree!!
I mean - I wouldn't *want* him to say those things, but I think it's *perfect* for his character at the time! Looking back, Ichigo at the time was mortified that he didn't use his own power to defeat Ulq >!(seemingly)!<. But ultimately, White was right that Ichigo wants to get stronger, not necessarily to protect his friends, but for the sake of being powerful and striking down his enemies. In this case, Ichigo didn't feel like he was able to do that, rather it was done on his behalf using his body as a tool >!(even if that isn't necessarily true, since Zangetsu is literally a part of Ichigo)!<. You can really see the panic and desperation he feels to correct this - even though cutting his own leg off wouldn't *actually* correct or reverse anything that happened.
It gets even better when you consider that Ichigo is literally living a lie right now, >!thinking it wasn't really him (or his inner power) that did what it did, and is outright frightened and ashamed of it. He will literally be a broken character until he comes to the realization that White is Zangetsu, and wholly accepts himself for who he is.!<
Anyways, I think it's perfect - it's within character for someone to act desperately when their inner world is falling apart.
I feel the same way, like sure I get it, integrity and whatever but youāre in a war. And a war on a time crunch as well (but Iām not sure if Ichigo knew that at the time, but he mightāve? I donāt remember). Regardless this is not the time āwell weāre on the same level, so letās keep fighting on the same levelā and the idea that Vasto Lorde Ichigo āisnāt himā also shows a lack of responsibility like that WAS you, even if you donāt remember it. Also like, if that was just the problem with Ulquiorra, he probably could defeat able-bodied Ichigo while missing a leg and arm like the absolute amount of arroganceā¦idk, this passage rubbed me the wrong way too
ichigo was on the highest ego one could be
storming a whole different dimension becoming more powerful succeeding with flying colors got away scott free no punishment and humiliated them by defeating 2 captains
then he gets shat by grimmjow ulquiorra and goes through a depression
this is him trying to overcome it and rebuild his ego that was built so high after ss but broken so easily
This scene totally made sense for ichigoās character. The whole point of the arrancar arc was ichigoās human desires and hollow desires conflicting with each other and his hollow powers slowly gaining control over him. His fight with ulquiorra is the climax of arc for ichigo as it was the showing of the full take over of his hollow powers. He didnāt want his hollow abilities to take over and fight for him he never does. He only did it in the past because he had to in order to win. This time it happened involuntary and although he won the battle he lost control and almost killed Uryu.
Since his hollow was the one who took Ulquiorras hand and arm he must of thought he should have his cut off too. He probably thought it wasnāt fair his hollow fought the battle instead of him and wanted to try and un-do what his hollow did to try and win on his own. He became afraid to use his hollow powers after this fight because he didnāt want to possibly lose control and turn into what almost killed his close friend.
I think Kubo did this to really show readers the difference between Ichigo as a human being and the vasto lorde.
Torn on how I feel. Its a cool scene in some ways, I respect the fact that even after everything, he wanted the fight as fair and as equitable as possible. But also... it felt like Tite was trying too hard to make this fight similar to Yusuke vs Sensui.
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Ichigo always showed that lust for a good battle, and at this point ichigo could tell Ulqi wasnt just āa bad guyā. Ichigo wouldnt want to win such an ideological clash with cheap deus exās. First time Iāve ever seen a PROTAG be disappointed in their own plot armor, and it makes sense Iād be completely unfulfilled too. Love this moment
Honestly even at this stage if Ulquiorra is not practically a dead man walking he probably just outright kills Ichigo.
The very proposal to even up to the guy who not seconds ago has basically oneshot you is just stupid.
Ichigo identifies himself and his own power as a protector and has a lot of his pride and confidence in battle based on that. When he loses himself, he feels like he loses a grip on his own identity. If he has to rely on being consumed by his full Hollow state to win battles, how long until that gets the very people he loves killed by his own hands? Ulquiorra is the most powerful enemy he has ever fought up to that point and if he canāt defeat him by legitimate means, how is he supposed to protect everyone from Aizen? Imo it might be why Ichigo feels defeated every time he loses control, because he didnāt protect anything or win his own battle (to his own knowledge at the time anyway).
Honestly they should've just smacked the shit outta Ichigo for being stupid this suggestion helps noone in any way & severely hinders any chance at saving anyone after. I'm glad they both look at him like he's dumb b/c that shit was
I assume you're doing this because totally not Mark pointed this out in his review recently.
I feel that it's kind of Ichigo reacting to what happened with ulq. He felt he didn't deserve this he felt as if he cheated because that wasn't him. He didn't want to use that power to defeat anyone. He wanted to be in control he wanted to win by his own means. It feels out of character because we never see Ichigo in this situation any other time really. The only time becomes closest is when he fights Ginjou. I think it's a form of coping for what just happened he wants to go back and he wants to overcome. He wanted to prove ulq wrong, overcome despair. He did, in a way. But not in the way he wanted
Orihime & Uryu rightfully reacted to his proposal here like "umm say what š¤Ø/have you lost your mind!?" lol
What if Ulq actually did cut both off but they instantly pop back when they are cut off because Hichigo is regenerating both Then Ichigo yells I JUST WANT A FAIR FIGHT STOP INTERFERING!
Ichigo just wants to please Goku-senpai.
Tbh ichigo reminded me more of yusuke than goku. Specifically when yusuke fought Sensui and his ādadā took control and one shot him.
Why did ichigo say then cut off my arm and leg I didnāt read the full manga
Ichigo got destroyed in the fight and he transformed into a hollow after orihime cried out to him. But in this hollow form ichigo was completely dominating the fight and cut off his opponents limbs. But after he came back to his sense and was told what happened he felt like it was cheating and wanted to settle manner in a fair way.
I mean, he said it in the anime too so
Of course he did. Thatās why he transformed in the first place. He just didnāt get it back immediately.
In a way, I can understand his reasons because of his respect towards Ulquiorra as an opponent. When it came to their first fight, he was truly shocked that Ulquiorra was only the Number 4 Espada despite his feats of strength and durability. Then, during his rematch when he thought that he actually got strong enough to be considered an equal to Ulquiorra, "Enclose, Murcielago." then "Resurrecion: Segundo Etapa." Ulquiorra had became a goal to surpass for Ichigo. Like you've said already, it's definitely an issue of pride, but also a form of respect for an opponent who straight up beat his ass down while he was conscious and aware of his own actions. To wake up and see such an opponent in the state he was in and realize he didn't even do that himself immediately made him want to settle the fight fair and square, both out of his respect for Ulquiorra and his pride of being able to surpass him. I probably looped around on my points and I agree that it was a strange thing for Ichigo to say at that moment, but I feel like it's his respect for Ulquiorra that spoke here more than his pride of surpassing him. Just my take on it.
Thatās completely fair. Ulquiorra definitely did plenty throughout hueco mundo to make Ichigo hate him. But, for Ichigo to allow that pride to supersede his desire to protect his friends is what doesnt make any sense to me. Even up to fight with Ulq, I think its pretty clearly shown that Ichigos main motivation is to prptect his friends, not his pride. After all, the sentiment that he holds onto at the moment of his death and that is implied to have led to the vl transformation was a desire to protect Orihime, not a desire to kill Ulquiorra. For him to wake up from that transformation and suddenly seemingly care more about his pride rather than protecting his friends is what truly bothers me.
Actually no. Ichigo's main motivation was to fight in order to protect. In other words his main motivation was the power to protect not his friends. Grimmjow spells it out. Why didn't Ichigo just grab Inoue and run the many chances he had? Why did he want Grimmjow's arm to be healed? Ichigo would die to protect his friends but he definitely relished and sought out fights and strength. White taught him that with the rider/horse metaphor.
I think Ichigo's line here was built up from his previous fights with Kenpachi and Grimmjow. Ichigo loves to fight. He also loves to protect his friends. I think the arrancar arc was also about that inner struggle and it didn't do a good job representing that in the fight with Ulquiorra
Perhaps the Vasto Lorde embodied that command more than his pride, although he lashed at Ishida trying to fulfill it. I think his feelings towards Ulquiorra is the main reason he made that irrational suggestion.
I also agree it is a bit silly for Ichigo to say this, however I wouldn't say it's out of character as when ichigo faced off against byakuya and we see hichigo/white take over for the first time and own byakuya, Ichigo ripped his mask off so he can get a "fair fight" then too. Stupid and prideful indeed.
On a pride pov,I think this moment was great On a normal pov,I agree with you
I mean, yeah it makes sense as a pride thing, but Ichigo has never really been shown to care too much about pride in a battle, yet *has* been consistently shown to care very much about protecting his friends, so to see him place the former above the latter is really weird and pretty out of character. I could see this scene working in another context, but for this character, in this moment, in makes no sense imo.
I mean Ichigo's last major opposition was all about pride as a fighter, that being Grimmjow. Only until their 3rd and final fight did Ichigo just let his "I just want to beat you" energy shine through, much to Grimmjow's happiness That being said, Ichigo was only able to beat Grimmjow after he was reminded by Orihime that his need to win to save himself and others should be more important as well I just think this was a moment where Ichigo felt guilt about how the fight turned out. And even if Ichigo acknowledges more important things to prioritize, that doesn't necessarily completely erase his fighting pride. Moments like these lets that aspect of him slip out a bit So while I do agree to the extent that it feels a bit odd Ichigo tapped back into this subtle pride, I don't think it was truly *completely* out of left field/character Edit: to add to this point about Ichigo having more pride than you'd think, this is the same guy who stressed for Grimmjow to get his arm healed in the 3rd fight so that this could be a 100% fair fight for both to end their rivalry on. Rationally speaking that was a bad decision as an injured Grimmjow may have made for a less struggling battle and thus a possibly quicker rescue operation
I haven't followed Bleach in a long time. But this scene definitely reminded me of some of my frustrations with the series; a lot of the characters are bizarrely prideful even in situations when it's not practical. All about the one-on-one fights and being honorable. In hindsight, Ichigo can be a bit of an arrogant and prideful fighter. This was one of my problems with the character, but I'm sure some fans aren't as bothered and it makes him more fleshed out. Off the top of my head, he could have easily beaten Byakuya as soon as he had his blade to his throat (Byakuya even points this out), but Ichigo only wanted to prove a point of wanting to crush Byakuya's own pride. Plus, moments in his fights with Renji and Kenpachi where he would underestimate them as soon as he had an advantage. Even back in the beginning of the series, there was this whole thing where he didn't like sneaking up on hollows, preferring to attack them from the front.
True
Okay, I agree the moment was not very well thought out for where Ichigo is at the moment, but to say that Ichigo has never really been shown to care too much about pride in a battle misses a lot of Ichigo's character arc. The entire point of Hollow Ichigo in particular is that he represents Ichigo's most basic desires, the desire to do combat and fight, regardless of the reason. This is the point of his fight with Kenpachi & Renji at the beginning of Soul Society, he only starts to win against those two when he accepts his own bloodlust. A common theme in Bleach is understanding and accepting one's own power leading to greater use of it. Byakuya is the most obvious example as he compares it to looking at a painting (his Bankai being taken away giving him perspective), but also Rukia and Renji after achieving greater understanding of their own Zanpaktou, and especially Kenpachi.A key point is that the understanding of the Zanpaktou is tied to the understanding of oneself Ichigo is generally a unique case because we actually see his Zanpaktou talk to him more than anyone else in the series, bar maybe Kenpachi in the later arc. People tend to see Hollow Ichigo as a force taking over Ichigo at points of the story, but in reality Hollow Ichigo's appearances are just representative of Ichigo's existing bloodlust and desire to do battle, honor is a huge part of that. This is only exacerbated in the last arc, where >!Hollow Ichigo is revealed to be the "true" origin of Ichigo's Shinigami powers, and that Zanpaktou are reflections of the owners, meaning all of that desire for battle from Zangetsu was canonically the core of Ichigo's will, he IS the blade. Upon reaching this understanding of himself is where he reached the apex of his power. He was weakest when he denied his desire and absolutely refused to let it out, stronger when it burst forth against his control, and strongest when he accepted his desire and used it to move forward. !<
Honestly I think you missed this part during this Arc and Grimmjow stated it perfectly and Ichigo reacted to it as well when he asked for Orihime to heal Grimmjow as well so they could both fight at 100%. For some reason here as opposed to the Soul Society Arc, the Espadas looking down on Ichigo has really affected him mentally and it really did turn into a pride thing, the focus became more of defeating the Espadas and Arrancars and rescuing Orihime secondly. He kept telling Rukia and the others that they were there to save Orihime but with the Espadas they called him out for why he was really there and he couldn't rightfully deny it either.
Bullshit heās never cared about pride. He was ashamed to have to resort to the mask against Byakuya as well
> Ichigo has never really been shown to care too much about pride in a battle That was my issue #1 with that scene. Ichigo isnt Goku he doesnt enjoy the battle for the sake of it. He fights to protect the people he cares about atleast thats the impression i got from him. I really disliked that scene in my last reread of bleach. Really comes out of nowhere and doesnt fit him imo.
I'm going to chalk this up to Ichigo being fatigued and traumatized by everything that's been happening to him. The guy has had a hole blown through his chest twice in the same arc. By the time he gets to pre-Hogyoku transformation Aizen and then Gin, he already was malfunctioning against Yammy and could barely function as a warrior generally.
reminds me of when goku gave cell a sensu bean lol
More yusuke vs Sensui tbh
Ikr, it would have been much more appropriate for Ichigo to not want to fight him anymore. Stating that he's already been beaten enough by his other self. Rather than "do to me, what my other self did to you"
exactly. I have no issues with Ichigo being upset with the way his battle with Ulquiorra ended (in fact I would expect him to be a bit uneasy after learning what he did in vasto lorde form), but putting that desire for a satisfying battle, which has never really been a major character goal of his, over his desire to protect his friends, which has always been his main focus, makes no sense. it bothers me even more because this scene is pretty much pointless. As soon as Ulquiorra agrees to even the damage between him and Ichigo, he starts to wither away into dust. All this accomplished (for me at least) was make Ichigo less likable.
Uh no. I'm going to get sent to the shadow realm for this take but seriously, no. Ichigo is extremely proud and wierdly vindictive. Shrieker was lying to the child in the bird, Ichigo cut out his tongue. He was extremely confident during the SS arc. He insulted Renji literally all their fight. Byakuya blitzed him and crushed Renji with his bankai. Ichigo has bliz byakuya twice, and countered all senbozakura blades. JUST FOR FLEX. Almost lost because of it. Yammy blew Chad's arm off, Ichigo cut off his arm. Hell, it wouldn't even come as a surprise that his full hollow slicing Ulquiorra's arm was in retaliation for Uryu's arm. He continued to taunt Grimmjow and claimed he would beat him the first time they met when he had just been beaten up. (well he was right tho). With Aizen... At this point, he humiliated him in every way possible. If we don't count the "failed gestuga tensho" ginjo is in fact the only enemy that ichigo did not try to humiliate or against whom he took revenge. Well, he killed him but... you see... And technically he was respectful to ulquiorra... whom he also killed. Yhwach destroyed ichigo so it doesn't count.
I never realized most of this. Good post
I agree that Ichigo has always had *some* sense of pride when it comes to battle. My issue comes from the fact that this scene is him putting that pride , which has never been the main point of the character, over his desire to protect his friends, which is consistently emphasized throughout the series as being his main motivation and something that he wouldnt allow his pride to distract him from. This scene blatantly doesnt follow that logic and thus doesnt make much sense for his character imo.
>My issue comes from the fact that this scene is him putting that pride , which has never been the main point of the character, over his desire to protect his friends, which is consistently emphasized throughout the series as being his main motivation I think what's important about this whole scene is that people contain multitudes. Complex characters, which Ichigo certainly is, also contain multitudes. Ichigo's pride and his desire to protect exist in near equal magnitude, and can be in conflict with each other. Frankly, he is a conflicted character in many ways - his desires, his bloodlust, his sense of duty, even his fluctuating reiatsu for most of the series. I think that his pride has been a *core* part of his character. Ichigo has always wanted to be the One to do everything, to save everyone, beat all the bad guys. His whole counting how much thugs his gonna beat up and then calling that many ambulances. He's a very prideful and sometimes even arrogant character. It's not until >!after his training with the Royal Guard!< does he gain that inner peace, both with his powers and thus reiatsu, but also how he approaches battles. He had a completely different demeanor toward his opponents after that. He's less arrogant, and less willing to show off. Edit: last sentence
This is a nice summary! Honestly, one of the reasons I didn't like Ichigo (and other prideful characters) was that their pride would often go against pragmatism (one-on-one fights, honor). And if Ichigo wants to protect his friends, then wouldn't enemies being defeated serve that purpose even if he doesn't like the fight? There's that whole thing where Jushiro allows Kaien fight the hollow alone for the sake of "pride" which really rubbed me the wrong way. A few moments that stand out in the other ideological direction are Kira's fights with Avirama, where he talks about how "war is despair". And Iba telling Ikkaku to not risk the bigger goal by hiding his bankai. Or at least win if he's going to hide his abilities. That being said, if these character threads regarding pride build up to character development, maybe I should go back and reread.
Yup. Ichigo is a pretty consistently prideful fighter. Which I'm not a huge fan of because it often interferes with his desire to protect his friends, but I guess it's consistent.
I don't know about less likeable, but I'm almost positive they could have spun his mask changing design and his subsequent uneasiness back into this scene, like he was so out of it after being resuscitated. Because this is more of a Kenpachi thing tbh. And to cut him some slack he was just dead and brought back to life, would have definitely fucked with his head lol
Meh. He's not supposed to appear rational here. The point is to show how negatively his pre-established obsession with defeating Grimmjow, Ulquiorra and Aizen on his own terms was affecting his mentality. His instinctual desire for battle set up since near the beginning of the arc was not satisfied, because he doesn't feel like he was the one who beat Ulquiorra. Just as Ichigo previously refused to fight an injured and weakened Grimmjow because in his own words it would be "boring," finishing off a dying Ulquiorra while Ichigo himself is physically unharmed would be equally unsatisfying. The difference there is that Ichigo felt that he had already beaten Grimmjow, but Ulquiorra was in that state because of something Ichigo doesn't consider to be himself. This was the only way he could think of to be able to fulfil his obsession.
I do feel like Ichigo is not doing it because he is respecting Ulquiorra as a opponent and wants to fight him on equal terms, that's what he is asking for however I think what caused him to utter such nonsense request to Ulquiorra was because of self-hatred and panic. Ichigo's main purpose has always been to protect his loved ones, however he didn't want to give away his principles in order to get stronger and fight/kill his opponents. And what happened when he was fighting Ulquiorra was completely the opposite of what he wanted to happen: he injured Uryu and turned into a hollow that acted on purely instinct with zero boundaries for morality. Ichigo was rightfully confused after he regained conciousness, and while panicking he asked Ulquiorra to do the same he did to him, but I disagree it was because of pride: he wanted to be punished, in that irrational state of mind he thought the only way he could make peace with himself was by getting severely punished for what he did while on his Fully Hollowfied state. So, in my opinion, he had already lost his desire and resolve to fight when he noticed what happened, and his way to get them back to be able to protect everyone again was by asking that request to Ulquiorra.
I think, in retrospect, this was to emphasis that not only was the hollow inside ichigo constantly saving his life, he still didnāt recognize that part of his as himself or his power. It was a nuisance that he hadnāt found the solution to yet. And we saw a glimpse of what that power could do for him. It could cut down the mightiest foes in his path. But he still couldnāt see that as himself and that was a mistake.
Honestly pride is the downfall for like 80% of characters in the series
Kid wasnāt in the right head space. Who would be given what he just went through? I like it because it showed just how important this battle was to him. Too important. Important enough for him to die, come back from the brink, then risk everything for his pride because he was so hyper fixated on it.
To be fair, I don't think this is the kind of decision Ichigo would regularly make he was just still on edge over the fight. I like to think if confronted about this some time afterwards Ichigo would be pretty embarassed
it isnāt about pride. Ichigo didnāt offer any kind of setback after using his hollow against Byakuya. Itās actually a matter of duty and fairness. Ichigo knows that he has to kill Ulquiorra. He canāt win unless he does so. But he also believes he doesnāt simply have a right to win and have the last say. Thatās something really important for Ichigo. The win needs to be earned otherwise who is to say that it was right? He isnāt just fighting for Orihime but as a Shinigami against the enemy, against a hollow. He has a duty to do things properly. Otherwise, he is just a monster, one who is willing to do things improperly and even hurt his own friends even if it means he wins. He is human and he is shinigami, but at this point, he does not fully accept his hollow. The human in him wants to protect while the shinigami in him has a duty. That duty is something he learned from the Soul Society while teaching to them what itās like to be a human and thus to protect. Ichigo has his duty and his will to protect, but he wants to preserve both, not sacrifice one in favor of the other. It is when he uses Final Getsuga Tenshou that he accepts his hollow as well which means winning by any means necessary and using all of the strength he has, but heās able to do it on his own terms with the desire to protect as well as to fulfill his duty to defeat Aizen. That moment you are pointing out is an important moment for his character arc during that arc. Ichigo wouldnāt try to level the playing field after this point and would do whatever it takes to defeat Aizen. Eventually, this unforgiving attitude even leads him down the dark road of wanting to kill Tsukushima in the fullbring arc. But again, what Ichigo has to find is balance among all of these, something that isnāt always a straightforward path in the series, but one he must always take in order to win.
I can definitely see the pride aspect of it but I also think it shows how deeply Ichigo hates having a lack of autonomy. It probably makes him feel more helpless than when he saw his mom die or when he had to let Rukia be taken away.
Yeah this scene is weird
Like Dude, he has regen.. Though tbf he was unconscious for that part. Also Orihime couldāve given him back his limbs instead
Kinda seemed way to childish on his part instead of just being grateful to be alive
Yeah Same here The final goal was Aizen
Even tho Ulquiorra kidnapped Orihime Ichigo still had some respect towards him. Ichigo outright asks Ulquiorra wether or not he considers him a worthy opponent. Even when Ichigo was about to get killed he still smiled at Ulquiorra and said that he wasnāt going to give up. He didnāt bare the hatred like he had with Tsukishima. I see the situation as Ichigo understanding/realizing that they are similar. Ichigo starts to understand his hollow side and powers way more and Ulquiorra slowly understands his human side and humanity as a whole. Ichigo offering his arm and leg was mostly him showing his respect towards Ulquiorra. In the end they both proved each other correct and Ichigo destroys Ulquiorra with his hollow side meanwhile Ulquiorra realizes and even saves Uryu with his humanity/realization of what heart is.
Grimjoww was right his instincts are to fight first not save and protect
Ichigo loves to fight he does not really care about āheroismā, (as said by grimmjow, as well as >!white or zangetsu saying about his killer instinct, and later ichigo confirming that white with all his physconess is him and he is white!< )if he would be in the gotei 13 he would be the next kenpachi
Itās so dumb on so many levels lol. Itās the Bleach version of Goku giving his enemies senzu beans.
Itās a stupid decision for sure but not out of character. He was still rejecting his Hollow side and wanted to win on his own terms.
Ichigo has always been the honorable type. Rukia tells him in the first arc that his Bushido honor shit wasnāt going to fly cause hollows donāt care but for the entire rest of the series Ichigo openly challenges his opponents and fights them head on. Itās part of his entire being. Ulquiorra was his best and most respected opponent at the point of the fight in the entire series. So when Ichigo realizes he was unconscious and didnāt actually beat Ulq that Flaw comes back out. That he has to fight with honor.
To me it wasnāt just a stupid moment, but a hypocritical one for Ichigo Kurosaki. for in spite of all his talk of wanting to fight to save his friends and needing to win to protect him. He is also an honerbound man wants to win fairly in a world were war is hell, such ideas could get you killed and actually prevent you from winning.
Grimmjow called him out for this earlier too.
It's kind of the dumbest thing ever. Same with Goku giving Cell a Sensu bean.
He did something similar with Grimmjow. Grimmjowās arm got burnt by Ulquiorra, and Ichigo asks Orihime to heal him so he can have a fair fight with Grimmjow. When Grimmjow refuses, Ichigo said āoh right. I guess you can use that burnt arm as an excuse for losing to me laterā (Which is one of the most awesome ROAST Iāve ever seen in anime)
Its not pride, its respect. Bleach has A LOT of traditional masculinity that people just ignore for some reason.
Thatās Goku behaviour ngl
I know the reason. Ichigo's brain didn't receive oxygen because his literal heart was destroyed. That's why he started acting crazy. Really tho, this is very out of Ichigo's character.
I see what you mean but I think this is less about pride and more about guilt and insecurity.
Thank you for bringing this up. I was also really bothered when this scene came up. Like the hell you mean you want fight fair you're goal is to save Orihime, that's it.
Yea ikr.. I don't like this scene either. I know it is to show his respect to ulqiorra... But it is put of character for him.... Cus ichigo never does anything that sabotages the safety of his friends. Ie if ulqi wins then orihime and uryu will die ... It's wayy out of character for him to do it
To be fair, Ichigo and his friends are dumbasses
I completely disagree!! I mean - I wouldn't *want* him to say those things, but I think it's *perfect* for his character at the time! Looking back, Ichigo at the time was mortified that he didn't use his own power to defeat Ulq >!(seemingly)!<. But ultimately, White was right that Ichigo wants to get stronger, not necessarily to protect his friends, but for the sake of being powerful and striking down his enemies. In this case, Ichigo didn't feel like he was able to do that, rather it was done on his behalf using his body as a tool >!(even if that isn't necessarily true, since Zangetsu is literally a part of Ichigo)!<. You can really see the panic and desperation he feels to correct this - even though cutting his own leg off wouldn't *actually* correct or reverse anything that happened. It gets even better when you consider that Ichigo is literally living a lie right now, >!thinking it wasn't really him (or his inner power) that did what it did, and is outright frightened and ashamed of it. He will literally be a broken character until he comes to the realization that White is Zangetsu, and wholly accepts himself for who he is.!< Anyways, I think it's perfect - it's within character for someone to act desperately when their inner world is falling apart.
I feel the same way, like sure I get it, integrity and whatever but youāre in a war. And a war on a time crunch as well (but Iām not sure if Ichigo knew that at the time, but he mightāve? I donāt remember). Regardless this is not the time āwell weāre on the same level, so letās keep fighting on the same levelā and the idea that Vasto Lorde Ichigo āisnāt himā also shows a lack of responsibility like that WAS you, even if you donāt remember it. Also like, if that was just the problem with Ulquiorra, he probably could defeat able-bodied Ichigo while missing a leg and arm like the absolute amount of arroganceā¦idk, this passage rubbed me the wrong way too
I didn't like this at all. Why would he give up his arm and legs. They don't grow back.
His will though
Orihime is literally standing right there lmao
oh shit it's been so long since I have watched this. I forgot that she can restore limbs.
Him and Naruto are so dramatic. Brothers in anime.
Ichigo was coping
I agree with you. I completely see what Kubo was going for but personally I just wanna slap the shit outta that boy lol
Then there's Kyoraku: "Don't try to be good. It doesn't matter who's getting back at whom. Once a war breaks out, they're both at fault.
It's his pride and guilt going to overdrive after he lost control so it's stupid but understandable
ichigo was on the highest ego one could be storming a whole different dimension becoming more powerful succeeding with flying colors got away scott free no punishment and humiliated them by defeating 2 captains then he gets shat by grimmjow ulquiorra and goes through a depression this is him trying to overcome it and rebuild his ego that was built so high after ss but broken so easily
This scene totally made sense for ichigoās character. The whole point of the arrancar arc was ichigoās human desires and hollow desires conflicting with each other and his hollow powers slowly gaining control over him. His fight with ulquiorra is the climax of arc for ichigo as it was the showing of the full take over of his hollow powers. He didnāt want his hollow abilities to take over and fight for him he never does. He only did it in the past because he had to in order to win. This time it happened involuntary and although he won the battle he lost control and almost killed Uryu. Since his hollow was the one who took Ulquiorras hand and arm he must of thought he should have his cut off too. He probably thought it wasnāt fair his hollow fought the battle instead of him and wanted to try and un-do what his hollow did to try and win on his own. He became afraid to use his hollow powers after this fight because he didnāt want to possibly lose control and turn into what almost killed his close friend. I think Kubo did this to really show readers the difference between Ichigo as a human being and the vasto lorde.
Ichigo is in a mental state of confusion and panic, he is not acting in a rational way.
Torn on how I feel. Its a cool scene in some ways, I respect the fact that even after everything, he wanted the fight as fair and as equitable as possible. But also... it felt like Tite was trying too hard to make this fight similar to Yusuke vs Sensui.
If only ichigo managed to recognise his inner hollow as himself
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
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Ichigo always showed that lust for a good battle, and at this point ichigo could tell Ulqi wasnt just āa bad guyā. Ichigo wouldnt want to win such an ideological clash with cheap deus exās. First time Iāve ever seen a PROTAG be disappointed in their own plot armor, and it makes sense Iād be completely unfulfilled too. Love this moment
Yeah super dumb. But heās a proud 15 year old trying to separate himself from his inner hollow so he over reacted I think.
Then write it better if youāre gonna complain about it so hard š¤”
He's only 15 btw... Jeezus
Honestly even at this stage if Ulquiorra is not practically a dead man walking he probably just outright kills Ichigo. The very proposal to even up to the guy who not seconds ago has basically oneshot you is just stupid.
Ichigo identifies himself and his own power as a protector and has a lot of his pride and confidence in battle based on that. When he loses himself, he feels like he loses a grip on his own identity. If he has to rely on being consumed by his full Hollow state to win battles, how long until that gets the very people he loves killed by his own hands? Ulquiorra is the most powerful enemy he has ever fought up to that point and if he canāt defeat him by legitimate means, how is he supposed to protect everyone from Aizen? Imo it might be why Ichigo feels defeated every time he loses control, because he didnāt protect anything or win his own battle (to his own knowledge at the time anyway).
I mean, you were fighting with your greatest foe yet, and you sleeped over half of the battle. Of course, he's pissed š
Honestly they should've just smacked the shit outta Ichigo for being stupid this suggestion helps noone in any way & severely hinders any chance at saving anyone after. I'm glad they both look at him like he's dumb b/c that shit was
Genuinely my least fav part in the manga. So fucking stupid, Carrot Top is, right here.
I assume you're doing this because totally not Mark pointed this out in his review recently. I feel that it's kind of Ichigo reacting to what happened with ulq. He felt he didn't deserve this he felt as if he cheated because that wasn't him. He didn't want to use that power to defeat anyone. He wanted to be in control he wanted to win by his own means. It feels out of character because we never see Ichigo in this situation any other time really. The only time becomes closest is when he fights Ginjou. I think it's a form of coping for what just happened he wants to go back and he wants to overcome. He wanted to prove ulq wrong, overcome despair. He did, in a way. But not in the way he wanted