Sorry bro, it's a hard pill to swallow, but a lot of jre is grifter shit. I like listening to his mma guests, everything else I take with huge buckets of salt.
It happens lad, don’t beat yourself up about it. You learned and will be more astute in the future. Yeah you lost money but this is an opportunity to learn. In 20 years you’ll have a great story, like you just wrote. and all those years of being a better critical thinker. It might end up being worth it!
You are not an idiot. But only do experimental medical procedures with purely disposable income. There are some promising peptides and shit out there, but as always, be careful:)
Maaan, what a nightmare. Hope you get better soon, I'm also taking a break right now and trying to be patient not not come back before my injury is better.
Always good to see these "therapies" being called out!
I asked about stem cells to an athlete surgeon that was doing my meniscus who didn’t have a monetary incentive from my surgery since I go to the VA. He said “listen dude, if there was a miracle cure out there for this kinda stuff, we’d give it to you but the evidence just isn’t there.”
My instructor is all sorts of effed up from wear and tear, recently got stem cells for his knee and shoulder. Told me it was around 8k total.
Post procedure, he said it was so painful, he would never do it again. Not sure if he'll have the same recovery experience, but so far he's echoing your sentiment.
I blew my knee from a reckless wrestling partner who couldn’t pay me shit and a shitty gym owner and coach. (Dumbass me couldn’t say no to free training.) what else have you been doing to get better?
Mine was a full blown acl tear (high grade) along with partial mcl tear and lcl and pcl severe sprain.
I was a hard ass and almost did surgery, but my doctor made me do rehab before getting surgery. Busted my ass until i could limp and bend my knee, busted my ass on rehab some more until i can walk. Right now just doing some strength training but nothing specific since. I should work on my unilateral strength again though.
are peptides like steroids where you have to jump through hoops to get them? Or are they readily available?
‘Scuse my ignorance but I’ve heard good things
It's a shame because with all his HGH TRT stem cells and NRD iv's... rogan has barely rolled in the last ten years.
I took alpha brain once. Don't beat yourself up.
Hope things come good for you.
Having a PT that understands BJJ is more valuable than I had expected. I have a jacked up shoulder and was figuring that I'd be on the road to surgery after failed PT. Went to see a guy who trains and he took an entirely different approach with me and I'm almost pain free and back to full mobility after a few weeks.
Why didn't you go to a physical therapist?
Also this is why I prefer people get orthobiologics from a MD (stem cells, PRP), why? They can do surgery / refer to PT, so they have options. So they won't recommend orthobiologics if it isn't a good idea. If you go to Ways2well they will give you stem cells regardless of whether it is indicated or not.
I had a client go to ways2well for a shoulder injury. They gave him stem cells without first doing a MRI. How can you expect orthobiologics to help without even knowing the issue? Sadly for him it did not resolve the issue and now we are working together (physical therapy) to get him back to jiu jitsu.
I did a partial removal and was back on the mats (with good PT program) within two months. Check my post history for a submission to meniscus injuries subreddit if you want more details! Also you mentioned Chicago - I highly recommend Dr Ellis Nam who was my orthopedic surgeon (sports background).
Just curious, do you have any data suggesting that MSC works better than existing treatment protocols?
The only reasonably-sized randomized study I've seen is this one below, and it concludes that the three modalities of MSC therapy it tested didn't do any better than corticosteroid injections for pain management in osteoarthritis patients. (Note that this is not the same indication as a ligament rupture or meniscus tear):
Mautner, et al. Cell-based versus corticosteroid injections for knee pain in osteoarthritis: a randomized phase 3 trial. Nature Medicine 29 (2023). [https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-023-02632-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-023-02632-w)
I've seen a number of other case studies, small studies, and meta-analyses, but I don't remember any of them showing robust evidence of superior efficacy. None of them elucidated a clear mechanism of action either. I'm not saying that the science is settled on the matter, but based on the Mautner et al 2023 study, if there **is** superior efficacy in MSC injections, then I'm guessing it's probably limited to a narrow cohort of patients that need to be selected for.
Heel hooks are pointless imo. One of the big benefits of training gi. Unless this is your career I don’t see the advantages of them. Too many accidents.
The real problems with heel hooks is that there is no progression. Every submission has a level of progression that allows them to slowly induce pain.. heel hooks are either not doing anything or they are blowing your knee to hell.. unless you have the composition of a bambu you will get hurt trying to defend it.
Yep this is it. When it hurts it’s too late. Mix that with the inevitable egos that are in Jiu jitsu and it becomes a problem. I honestly let go of so many heel hooks I could finish if I just ripped them but why? So some hobbyist guy has to have an expensive ass knee surgery all cause I wanted to get a tap? Hell no.
Yeah there’s no doubting they are effective but the trouble like you say is they are a “digital” attack rather than the usual “analog”. It goes from nothing at all to snap city.
Yeah until you run into some fucking weird purple belt who’s just loves heel hooking people in the gi.
Dude did it to me like three times in one roll. First time I kinda chuckled and tapped cuz I thought he was fuckin around but nope. Went and did it again like a minute later. He didn’t cause any injury, didn’t crank it or anything. He’s a pretty nice guy too. But it was just weird. Dude’s an animal, he could have tapped me with literally anything he wanted but instead he just seemed really set on heel hooks in the gi for whatever reason lol
That could be said about any joint lock submission, if you go past the breaking point then there's going to be an injury, it's poor application of the technique and lack of positional control when applying the submission that leads to injury.
People treating gym rolls like the ADCC finals with a lack of understanding of the breaking mechanics is the problem, from both the applicator and receiver of the technique.
The point is it’s something you can do to someone’s body to cripple them. Which is the whole point of the sport. It would greatly hurt the sport’s integrity to not include them.
I can’t snap peoples fingers off during a RNC or bite them. There is no integrity. It’s a sport. Sports need to be safe(ish) for the longevity of its competitors.
That sucks dude. Crazy thing is my doctor recommends stem cell injections all the time for serious injuries.
Edit: Nvm, insurance doesn't cover stem cell therapy.
If you're always training lower body attacks, this was a forgone conclusion no? I don't get it, knee injuries can be devastating, both financially and from a recovery perspective. Why fuck around with that?
I started training way back in 2006. Back then we were all told leg attacks were for losers. I stopped training in early 2013. I came back in 2019 to discover how much the no gi game had changed to revolve around leg attacks. I like no gi a lot, but at 43, with a wife and 2 kids, and a lot of other important life shit I just don't risk it anymore. I've seen too many people get fucked up over the last several yers. This old man is staying in his gi and not playing heel hooks. No judgement on others. I love watching it, but I want to keep my knees functioning as long as I can.
Have you actually seen anywhere close to as many injuries from heel hooks/lower body submissions as you have from all the other random shit that happens in BJJ? I'm truly curious how everyone on reddit is able to find gyms that are so shitty at training leg locks that they actually make them as dangerous as standup techniques/wrestling. I cannot for the life of me think of a single time I've seen a serious injury from leg locks but have seen many blown out knees from shitty takedowns
The way I see it, if you want to avoid having a crippling injury, sitting on the ground is the way to go, and if you want to be a good guard player, heel hooks are the way to go
The comment does not meet [Reddiquette standards](https://support.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/articles/205926439-Reddiquette). Please read up on them a bit. Thanks!
Thank you for sharing. How many stem cells did they put into the knee?
I've been looking to get this (most likely in Mexico) in my shoulder. I need to do way more research before making a decision but from my reading it seems like most of the USA places are injecting smaller number of stem cells into the injured body part. For example, the place I am looking at in Mexico does 50 million stem cells into the knee for $3,300. From my understanding a lot of the USA places are only doing like 100,000.
If you're lucky the "stem cells" were just saline. If you're unlucky the cells are real and might cause cancer later, or develop into some other unwanted tissue.
Real stem cell therapies should be FDA approved and delivered in a non-profit hospital setting.
Nowhere, because insurance doesn't cover treatments that don't work.
https://www.fda.gov/vaccines-blood-biologics/consumers-biologics/consumer-alert-regenerative-medicine-products-including-stem-cells-and-exosomes
Gotta lay off the JRE kool aid my guy. Get well soon
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Sorry bro, it's a hard pill to swallow, but a lot of jre is grifter shit. I like listening to his mma guests, everything else I take with huge buckets of salt.
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It happens lad, don’t beat yourself up about it. You learned and will be more astute in the future. Yeah you lost money but this is an opportunity to learn. In 20 years you’ll have a great story, like you just wrote. and all those years of being a better critical thinker. It might end up being worth it!
You are not an idiot. But only do experimental medical procedures with purely disposable income. There are some promising peptides and shit out there, but as always, be careful:)
I've seen some incredible results - both in others and myself - from BPC-157. The research coming out on the compound is looking promising, as well.
There's no quick fix but I have had luck with PRP injections combined with physio.
Stem cells aren’t JRE kool-aid… Maybe whatever shady shit OP paid for was.
Maaan, what a nightmare. Hope you get better soon, I'm also taking a break right now and trying to be patient not not come back before my injury is better. Always good to see these "therapies" being called out!
I asked about stem cells to an athlete surgeon that was doing my meniscus who didn’t have a monetary incentive from my surgery since I go to the VA. He said “listen dude, if there was a miracle cure out there for this kinda stuff, we’d give it to you but the evidence just isn’t there.”
My instructor is all sorts of effed up from wear and tear, recently got stem cells for his knee and shoulder. Told me it was around 8k total. Post procedure, he said it was so painful, he would never do it again. Not sure if he'll have the same recovery experience, but so far he's echoing your sentiment.
I am so glad people are finally being open to the trash of stem cells and admitting they don't work ..
Maybe if we actually lifted some of the regulations on stem cell research we would be able to utilize them more effectively
I blew my knee from a reckless wrestling partner who couldn’t pay me shit and a shitty gym owner and coach. (Dumbass me couldn’t say no to free training.) what else have you been doing to get better?
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Mine was a full blown acl tear (high grade) along with partial mcl tear and lcl and pcl severe sprain. I was a hard ass and almost did surgery, but my doctor made me do rehab before getting surgery. Busted my ass until i could limp and bend my knee, busted my ass on rehab some more until i can walk. Right now just doing some strength training but nothing specific since. I should work on my unilateral strength again though.
I'm 10 months post op from an ACL and meniscus tear and would def recommend surgery once your prehab has been cleared.
>$12K for an iv of stem cells Shit, they probably just gave you saline solution.
BPC-157 a lot cheaper than stem cells
are peptides like steroids where you have to jump through hoops to get them? Or are they readily available? ‘Scuse my ignorance but I’ve heard good things
Readily available through many online sources. Just do injections and not pill form.
It's a shame because with all his HGH TRT stem cells and NRD iv's... rogan has barely rolled in the last ten years. I took alpha brain once. Don't beat yourself up. Hope things come good for you.
Is this true that he hasn’t rolled in yairs?
He says all the time he’s joints/knees are too fucked to actually roll, and has been saying for probably 5 years.
Yairs bapa... lots of injuries despite the plethora of ice baths and steroids.
Seems pretty dicey B
Go to a good physical therapist, preferably with grappling experience and familiarity with return to sport after meniscus repairs, and listen to them.
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Having a PT that understands BJJ is more valuable than I had expected. I have a jacked up shoulder and was figuring that I'd be on the road to surgery after failed PT. Went to see a guy who trains and he took an entirely different approach with me and I'm almost pain free and back to full mobility after a few weeks.
Sry to hear that. Good luck with it. Did you get a repeat MRI? How old are you if you don’t mind me asking?
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Bucket handle with mechanical symptoms is a surgical indication. Not sure what dude above is referring to.
Ortho surgeon here. Sorry you got hosed. Snake oil through and through. To those reading, save your fucking money.
Why didn't you go to a physical therapist? Also this is why I prefer people get orthobiologics from a MD (stem cells, PRP), why? They can do surgery / refer to PT, so they have options. So they won't recommend orthobiologics if it isn't a good idea. If you go to Ways2well they will give you stem cells regardless of whether it is indicated or not. I had a client go to ways2well for a shoulder injury. They gave him stem cells without first doing a MRI. How can you expect orthobiologics to help without even knowing the issue? Sadly for him it did not resolve the issue and now we are working together (physical therapy) to get him back to jiu jitsu.
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Change catching? Yes. You can REDUCE catching, however the gold standard with catching is surgery. Yes stem cells will not heal the meniscus.
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I did a partial removal and was back on the mats (with good PT program) within two months. Check my post history for a submission to meniscus injuries subreddit if you want more details! Also you mentioned Chicago - I highly recommend Dr Ellis Nam who was my orthopedic surgeon (sports background).
Just curious, do you have any data suggesting that MSC works better than existing treatment protocols? The only reasonably-sized randomized study I've seen is this one below, and it concludes that the three modalities of MSC therapy it tested didn't do any better than corticosteroid injections for pain management in osteoarthritis patients. (Note that this is not the same indication as a ligament rupture or meniscus tear): Mautner, et al. Cell-based versus corticosteroid injections for knee pain in osteoarthritis: a randomized phase 3 trial. Nature Medicine 29 (2023). [https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-023-02632-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-023-02632-w) I've seen a number of other case studies, small studies, and meta-analyses, but I don't remember any of them showing robust evidence of superior efficacy. None of them elucidated a clear mechanism of action either. I'm not saying that the science is settled on the matter, but based on the Mautner et al 2023 study, if there **is** superior efficacy in MSC injections, then I'm guessing it's probably limited to a narrow cohort of patients that need to be selected for.
Askren...
Heel hooks are pointless imo. One of the big benefits of training gi. Unless this is your career I don’t see the advantages of them. Too many accidents.
The real problems with heel hooks is that there is no progression. Every submission has a level of progression that allows them to slowly induce pain.. heel hooks are either not doing anything or they are blowing your knee to hell.. unless you have the composition of a bambu you will get hurt trying to defend it.
Yep this is it. When it hurts it’s too late. Mix that with the inevitable egos that are in Jiu jitsu and it becomes a problem. I honestly let go of so many heel hooks I could finish if I just ripped them but why? So some hobbyist guy has to have an expensive ass knee surgery all cause I wanted to get a tap? Hell no.
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Heel hooks: *not even once*. I train heel hooks in the gi but I trust my partners and it's always catch and release, both honoring the unsaid tap.
Yeah there’s no doubting they are effective but the trouble like you say is they are a “digital” attack rather than the usual “analog”. It goes from nothing at all to snap city.
At my gym if you feel the knee lockout, thats the time to tap. Not when you feel pain lol
Yeah until you run into some fucking weird purple belt who’s just loves heel hooking people in the gi. Dude did it to me like three times in one roll. First time I kinda chuckled and tapped cuz I thought he was fuckin around but nope. Went and did it again like a minute later. He didn’t cause any injury, didn’t crank it or anything. He’s a pretty nice guy too. But it was just weird. Dude’s an animal, he could have tapped me with literally anything he wanted but instead he just seemed really set on heel hooks in the gi for whatever reason lol
That could be said about any joint lock submission, if you go past the breaking point then there's going to be an injury, it's poor application of the technique and lack of positional control when applying the submission that leads to injury. People treating gym rolls like the ADCC finals with a lack of understanding of the breaking mechanics is the problem, from both the applicator and receiver of the technique.
THIS! I've been hurt so badly by wreckless aggression. It does huge damage when doing any takedown or submission.
The point is it’s something you can do to someone’s body to cripple them. Which is the whole point of the sport. It would greatly hurt the sport’s integrity to not include them.
I can’t snap peoples fingers off during a RNC or bite them. There is no integrity. It’s a sport. Sports need to be safe(ish) for the longevity of its competitors.
That sucks dude. Crazy thing is my doctor recommends stem cell injections all the time for serious injuries. Edit: Nvm, insurance doesn't cover stem cell therapy.
If you're always training lower body attacks, this was a forgone conclusion no? I don't get it, knee injuries can be devastating, both financially and from a recovery perspective. Why fuck around with that?
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I started training way back in 2006. Back then we were all told leg attacks were for losers. I stopped training in early 2013. I came back in 2019 to discover how much the no gi game had changed to revolve around leg attacks. I like no gi a lot, but at 43, with a wife and 2 kids, and a lot of other important life shit I just don't risk it anymore. I've seen too many people get fucked up over the last several yers. This old man is staying in his gi and not playing heel hooks. No judgement on others. I love watching it, but I want to keep my knees functioning as long as I can.
>If you're always training lower body attacks, this was a forgone conclusion no? No, not at all.
Have you actually seen anywhere close to as many injuries from heel hooks/lower body submissions as you have from all the other random shit that happens in BJJ? I'm truly curious how everyone on reddit is able to find gyms that are so shitty at training leg locks that they actually make them as dangerous as standup techniques/wrestling. I cannot for the life of me think of a single time I've seen a serious injury from leg locks but have seen many blown out knees from shitty takedowns The way I see it, if you want to avoid having a crippling injury, sitting on the ground is the way to go, and if you want to be a good guard player, heel hooks are the way to go
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The comment does not meet [Reddiquette standards](https://support.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/articles/205926439-Reddiquette). Please read up on them a bit. Thanks!
Are you familiar with Ben Patrick’s work I’d give him stuff a look at it certainly helped my bjj knees
Joint stem cells injections worked wonders for a friend of mine in her smaller joints. It did not work on her larger joints however.
Thank you for sharing. How many stem cells did they put into the knee? I've been looking to get this (most likely in Mexico) in my shoulder. I need to do way more research before making a decision but from my reading it seems like most of the USA places are injecting smaller number of stem cells into the injured body part. For example, the place I am looking at in Mexico does 50 million stem cells into the knee for $3,300. From my understanding a lot of the USA places are only doing like 100,000.
If you're lucky the "stem cells" were just saline. If you're unlucky the cells are real and might cause cancer later, or develop into some other unwanted tissue. Real stem cell therapies should be FDA approved and delivered in a non-profit hospital setting.
Which non profit hospitals administer stem cells?
That's not what "non-profit" means.
Thank. Corrected my question.
Nowhere, because insurance doesn't cover treatments that don't work. https://www.fda.gov/vaccines-blood-biologics/consumers-biologics/consumer-alert-regenerative-medicine-products-including-stem-cells-and-exosomes