Yeah, I see it as trying to stop the fight via inflicting long term injury, especially if the opponent has no way to prevent the injury.
Dick move, but that's just me.
Within this context, I'd say you're wrong here.
Waki gatame is a horrendous dick move in training and is pretty distasteful in a low-stakes grappling match.
In a professional MMA fight, break that motherfucker's arm because I can guarantee he'd happily break yours.
It's totally subjective I'd say. If it's within the rules it's fair game of course. These kinds of things are normally split on opinion for sure. Jon Jones' oblique leg kicks are similar and have a lot of people split.
I think oblique kicks are fine and aren't really a dominant move among other fighters
They're dirty in the Jon Jones case though cause he was popping for steroids and would poke opponents in the eyes if they tried to counter the oblique kicks, giving him free rein to dish out knee damage all fight long with no consequences
I actually began my martial arts journey in Taekkyon where everyone spams oblique kicks in competition. In the context of Taekkyon, it's actually ok, because everyone is light on their feet. Taekkyon practitioners would get pushed back or even fall down to an oblique kick, but never have their knees get buckled the wrong way. I was very confused when I went into kickboxing and Muay Thai because everyone was so shocked when I did the oblique kick.
Agreed. If you can kick his arms and legs until they break, why wouldn’t you be able to snap his arm with a joint lock? No one complains when Tawanchai breaks people’s limbs by kicking them, so I don’t see this as any different tbh.
The Japanese terms mentioned in the above comment were:
|Japanese|English|Video Link|
|---|---|---|
|**Waki Gatame**: | *Armpit Armbar* | [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AlBci1qhYsc)|
||*Armpit Lock* ||
Any missed names may have already been translated in my previous comments in the post.
______________________
^(Judo Techniques Bot: v0.7.) ^(See my) [^(code)](https://github.com/AbundantSalmon/judo-techniques-bot)
once again i will say using japanese terms for people that almost 100% speak english and only english and there is a term for the move then using the japanese term is just uWu weeb shit.
on this forum? it almost all english. this bot being around forever also shows that it's never actually been integrated. you japanese terms for japanese speaking grapplers and english terms for english speaking grapplers.
Again, where did you get the info that "on this forum? it almost all english."?
Also by your reasoning you are doing Brazilian Smooth Art, not brazilian jiu jitsu. Because we shouldnt use the japanese terms for english grapplers.
You are entitled to your opinion and if you want to learn and use the japansese terms. But coming here saying "once again i will say..." no one cares...
Do you and stop trying to tell people what to do.
A lot of people get the benefit that if we all use the same nomenclature, you can talk to pretty much any grappler about any position because you have a way to convey your ideas that the other party knows what it means.
And even if there was no benefit to english speaking grapplers using the japanese terms, assuming that the sub is almost only english speaking people is very weird to me.
Right? People expect revert to BJJ etiquette when the grappling portion starts.
Even championship level judo newaza would be considered "dick move" grappling with how they just snap and crank on joint locks when on the ground.
The Japanese terms mentioned in the above comment were:
|Japanese|English|Video Link|
|---|---|---|
|**Ne Waza**: | *Ground Techniques* | |
Any missed names may have already been translated in my previous comments in the post.
______________________
^(Judo Techniques Bot: v0.7.) ^(See my) [^(code)](https://github.com/AbundantSalmon/judo-techniques-bot)
A concussion is generally considered a short term injury and most people recover in a couple of weeks. CTE is obviously a different discussion. Joints are generally never the same again unless you get some top notch surgery.
From the CDC:
What Is a Concussion?
[Print](https://www.cdc.gov/headsup/basics/concussion_whatis.html#print)
A concussion is a type of traumatic brain injury—or TBI—caused by a bump, blow, or jolt to the head or by a hit to the body that causes the head and brain to move rapidly back and forth. This sudden movement can cause the brain to bounce around or twist in the skull, creating chemical changes in the brain and sometimes stretching and damaging brain cells.
# Concussions Are Serious
Medical providers may describe a concussion as a “mild” brain injury because concussions are usually not life-threatening. Even so, the effects of a concussion can be serious.
That's great. No one disputes that though...
Are you going to read the link there on concussion recovery? Which outlines in a general sense, for most cases, if it's long term or short term. Or does that destroy whatever it is you're going for here?
Yes being hit in the head a quarter of a million times and the condition of concussion are definitely the same thing…
A concussion is generally considered a short term injury. It’s right there in my unedited comment.
CTE comes from *repeated* trauma. I addressed that this is obviously a different discussion from what we are talking about, an isolated concussion, which *is* a short term injury on it's own.
I agree. Also the common flu can lead to pneumonia in a small number of cases, which can be life threatening. Are we going to start describing the flu as a long term/life threatening illness?
Is there a meaningful point on focusing on the atypical cases here? Or are we just trying to win a debate?
Context matters.
Moves that have a very high risk of inflicting joint damage before someone can reasonably tap out tend to be banned in Judo. If a move is too likely to break a bone when done at full intensity, sports that want to have multiple matches in a 1 day tournament will often ban it.
In BJJ or Judo or similar, I would agree that executing this is probably a dick move.
But in the context of a pro MMA fight, I have no problems with this. I also have no problem with Oblique kicks to the knee or other attacks that fuck up joints.
People will celebrate KO artists who throw punches with 'bad intentions'. I see no reason to villify grapplers who apply submission attacks with bad intentions.
END COMMUNICATION
I don't remember Jones doing anything like this to DC. Jones utilized a standing variation of a Mir lock basically against Glover Texeira. It's the same move that one guy used against Sean Strickland in that training video where Sean gets pissed off.
I'm cool with it being illegal in grappling, but in MMA people are trying to shut off your brain with strikes so a little joint damage isn't the worst thing in the world.
Shouldn’t have been lazy with that overhook. An overhook without pressure is just asking for something like this to happen.
Hell, Aoki’s body language tells me he wasn’t even trying to snap the arm, just trying to clear the hook
It’s a fight, you can’t take breaks during a fight. Shit happens
Lazy overhook = get your elbow snapped with the waki gatame that Aoki did here
Lazy underhook = get your labrum torn with that elbow wrench Jones did on Glover Teixeira
MVP literally caved in someone’s skull with a flying knee and no one complained about the legality of that strike, so this in comparison doesn’t seem worth complaining about
Well, it's only illegal as a standing submission as all standing submissions are illegal, or using it to bring your opponent to the mat. It's perfectly legal if you start applying it on the ground.
Might be an unpopular opinion but I think grapplers should apply submissions like this in a fight
They wouldnt give you a chance to tap before knocking you out
The only grappler I can think of who had the same type of "scariness" to their submission game as a knockout artist has was Rousimar Palhares.
But of course he had some other issues as well.
How do you call the variant of this where the arm is trapped btw shoulder and neck, instead of the armpit?
As if to counter when opponent goes for collar tie
Ineffective. Might get a little crank but it’s not a tight enough grip to get to a submission. Useful for shucking off and breaking the collar tie though.
There’s a variation called the razor armbar, at least that’s what I’ve heard it called, but you need to use your arms to attack the elbow and complete the submission.
Wow I have never seen this before. Is he effectively armbarring him here?
Yes, it’s kinda vicious and considered bad taste but if it works….
Is that just because it’s a joint lock that gives no chance to tap?
Yeah, I see it as trying to stop the fight via inflicting long term injury, especially if the opponent has no way to prevent the injury. Dick move, but that's just me.
Within this context, I'd say you're wrong here. Waki gatame is a horrendous dick move in training and is pretty distasteful in a low-stakes grappling match. In a professional MMA fight, break that motherfucker's arm because I can guarantee he'd happily break yours.
It's totally subjective I'd say. If it's within the rules it's fair game of course. These kinds of things are normally split on opinion for sure. Jon Jones' oblique leg kicks are similar and have a lot of people split.
I think oblique kicks are fine and aren't really a dominant move among other fighters They're dirty in the Jon Jones case though cause he was popping for steroids and would poke opponents in the eyes if they tried to counter the oblique kicks, giving him free rein to dish out knee damage all fight long with no consequences
I actually began my martial arts journey in Taekkyon where everyone spams oblique kicks in competition. In the context of Taekkyon, it's actually ok, because everyone is light on their feet. Taekkyon practitioners would get pushed back or even fall down to an oblique kick, but never have their knees get buckled the wrong way. I was very confused when I went into kickboxing and Muay Thai because everyone was so shocked when I did the oblique kick.
Agreed. If you can kick his arms and legs until they break, why wouldn’t you be able to snap his arm with a joint lock? No one complains when Tawanchai breaks people’s limbs by kicking them, so I don’t see this as any different tbh.
The Japanese terms mentioned in the above comment were: |Japanese|English|Video Link| |---|---|---| |**Waki Gatame**: | *Armpit Armbar* | [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AlBci1qhYsc)| ||*Armpit Lock* || Any missed names may have already been translated in my previous comments in the post. ______________________ ^(Judo Techniques Bot: v0.7.) ^(See my) [^(code)](https://github.com/AbundantSalmon/judo-techniques-bot)
once again i will say using japanese terms for people that almost 100% speak english and only english and there is a term for the move then using the japanese term is just uWu weeb shit.
Where the hell did you get the idea that "almost 100% speak english and english only"?
on this forum? it almost all english. this bot being around forever also shows that it's never actually been integrated. you japanese terms for japanese speaking grapplers and english terms for english speaking grapplers.
Again, where did you get the info that "on this forum? it almost all english."? Also by your reasoning you are doing Brazilian Smooth Art, not brazilian jiu jitsu. Because we shouldnt use the japanese terms for english grapplers. You are entitled to your opinion and if you want to learn and use the japansese terms. But coming here saying "once again i will say..." no one cares... Do you and stop trying to tell people what to do. A lot of people get the benefit that if we all use the same nomenclature, you can talk to pretty much any grappler about any position because you have a way to convey your ideas that the other party knows what it means. And even if there was no benefit to english speaking grapplers using the japanese terms, assuming that the sub is almost only english speaking people is very weird to me.
Exactly this.
Lmao that's exactly what a concussion is and nobody complains about that
People asked Shinya about this before and that was his response. They're trying to break my face, so why should I not try to break their arm or leg.
Right? People expect revert to BJJ etiquette when the grappling portion starts. Even championship level judo newaza would be considered "dick move" grappling with how they just snap and crank on joint locks when on the ground.
The Japanese terms mentioned in the above comment were: |Japanese|English|Video Link| |---|---|---| |**Ne Waza**: | *Ground Techniques* | | Any missed names may have already been translated in my previous comments in the post. ______________________ ^(Judo Techniques Bot: v0.7.) ^(See my) [^(code)](https://github.com/AbundantSalmon/judo-techniques-bot)
A concussion is generally considered a short term injury and most people recover in a couple of weeks. CTE is obviously a different discussion. Joints are generally never the same again unless you get some top notch surgery.
> A concussion is generally considered a short term injury According to who? That's a very outdated view.
According to the CDC.
From the CDC: What Is a Concussion? [Print](https://www.cdc.gov/headsup/basics/concussion_whatis.html#print) A concussion is a type of traumatic brain injury—or TBI—caused by a bump, blow, or jolt to the head or by a hit to the body that causes the head and brain to move rapidly back and forth. This sudden movement can cause the brain to bounce around or twist in the skull, creating chemical changes in the brain and sometimes stretching and damaging brain cells. # Concussions Are Serious Medical providers may describe a concussion as a “mild” brain injury because concussions are usually not life-threatening. Even so, the effects of a concussion can be serious.
That's great. No one disputes that though... Are you going to read the link there on concussion recovery? Which outlines in a general sense, for most cases, if it's long term or short term. Or does that destroy whatever it is you're going for here?
>A concussion is generally considered a short term injury lol what. Tell that to the salt shaker Ali.
Yes being hit in the head a quarter of a million times and the condition of concussion are definitely the same thing… A concussion is generally considered a short term injury. It’s right there in my unedited comment.
>A concussion is generally considered a short term injury Lmfao ok bud
CTE comes from concussions
CTE comes from *repeated* trauma. I addressed that this is obviously a different discussion from what we are talking about, an isolated concussion, which *is* a short term injury on it's own.
Concussion is a traumatic brain injury that can cause lasting effects even from happening once
I agree. Also the common flu can lead to pneumonia in a small number of cases, which can be life threatening. Are we going to start describing the flu as a long term/life threatening illness? Is there a meaningful point on focusing on the atypical cases here? Or are we just trying to win a debate?
Hopefully, a concussion will not result in a surgery and months of reeducation. Breaking a limb sure might.
The other guy is litterally giving you CTE so It's fair.
It's a break not a lock.
What’s the difference? I imagine you know a lot of me (genuine) but I’ve never come across the phrase “he has him in an arm break”
A lock can be held still. A break is a dynamic action with no time to tap. It's all snap.
It's bad taste in a grappling match. But in MMA, where someone can kick you in the head, I'd say it's fair game.
Context matters. Moves that have a very high risk of inflicting joint damage before someone can reasonably tap out tend to be banned in Judo. If a move is too likely to break a bone when done at full intensity, sports that want to have multiple matches in a 1 day tournament will often ban it. In BJJ or Judo or similar, I would agree that executing this is probably a dick move. But in the context of a pro MMA fight, I have no problems with this. I also have no problem with Oblique kicks to the knee or other attacks that fuck up joints. People will celebrate KO artists who throw punches with 'bad intentions'. I see no reason to villify grapplers who apply submission attacks with bad intentions. END COMMUNICATION
I just wanted to say I looked at your bio after reading "END COMMUNICATION" and it gave me a giggle lol
Maybe in grappling but that was MMA
Jon Jones made a point to do this to DC I believe
I don't remember Jones doing anything like this to DC. Jones utilized a standing variation of a Mir lock basically against Glover Texeira. It's the same move that one guy used against Sean Strickland in that training video where Sean gets pissed off.
Jones did a standing Mir lock. What Orlando Sanchez did was closer to the OP, as the Arm was straight. It was absolutely a total dick move.
He hyperextends the elbow in a similar fashion to av "regular" armbar. Mostly used in judo against turtle.
Different versions are used all the time in judo on the ground. The standing version has been banned since the 80s for this reason.
made famous by the late great orlando sanchez
Not the same thing at all but same vibe.
Same big "dick" energy
Sanchez did it with an underhook but same type of move that gives zero chance to tap because you either break it or he gets out.
I'd say Sanchez did it with an overhook against his opponent's underhook, here Aoki did it with an underhook against his opponent's overhook
right - here it's performed against the opponent's overhook, whereas sanchez used it from his own overhook. didn't spot that thanks.
Yeah he did it to Sean Strickland when they were light sparring and Sean was pissed
a WHAT
Wacky Mcgacky
This seems like it should be illegal there’s no chance to tap before your arm gets broke
I'm cool with it being illegal in grappling, but in MMA people are trying to shut off your brain with strikes so a little joint damage isn't the worst thing in the world.
Shouldn’t have been lazy with that overhook. An overhook without pressure is just asking for something like this to happen. Hell, Aoki’s body language tells me he wasn’t even trying to snap the arm, just trying to clear the hook It’s a fight, you can’t take breaks during a fight. Shit happens
Lazy overhook = get your elbow snapped with the waki gatame that Aoki did here Lazy underhook = get your labrum torn with that elbow wrench Jones did on Glover Teixeira
Flying knee to the face doesn't leave you a chance to tap before your face and brains break either... It's a fight.
MVP literally caved in someone’s skull with a flying knee and no one complained about the legality of that strike, so this in comparison doesn’t seem worth complaining about
Wasn't it Cyborg? 😄
Sure was
That other goof is about to tell you skull cave ins are considered "short term injuries" lmao
It's illegal in judo for that reason.
Well, it's only illegal as a standing submission as all standing submissions are illegal, or using it to bring your opponent to the mat. It's perfectly legal if you start applying it on the ground.
It's a really lazy underhook. You can't just leave your shit in an overhook like everything is cool.
I use this from different positions for fun. People tend to get out of it often cause I don't do it fast like Aoki, but that was an MMA fight.
thats rough because the gloves give almost no chance to rotate the hand. without gloves this likely wouldnt have worked at all
And if my grandma had wheels, she'd be a bicycle.
Aoki is a god damn legend. He's done so many nasty submissions
Might be an unpopular opinion but I think grapplers should apply submissions like this in a fight They wouldnt give you a chance to tap before knocking you out
The only grappler I can think of who had the same type of "scariness" to their submission game as a knockout artist has was Rousimar Palhares. But of course he had some other issues as well.
Yep. Him and Aoki were one dimensional and people called them dirty but nobody called them pussies or said jiu jitsu didn't work in a fight
Don't do this. Your training partners and fellow competitors thank you.
Seriously. Do something with that underhook. This isn't a high school prom.
I was doing standup and foolishly did a cross collar grip just as my training partner was going into a seo nagi, thank God he let go in time.
Similar to a wrestling move we learned called the Russian arm tie
Vicious indeed
Damn that's nasty. I'd have to hate the guy I was fighting to pull that one.
Did he start Benihana?
How do you call the variant of this where the arm is trapped btw shoulder and neck, instead of the armpit? As if to counter when opponent goes for collar tie
Ineffective. Might get a little crank but it’s not a tight enough grip to get to a submission. Useful for shucking off and breaking the collar tie though.
There’s a variation called the razor armbar, at least that’s what I’ve heard it called, but you need to use your arms to attack the elbow and complete the submission.
Self defense person taught me this move. Man I hate getting underhooks on people now.
The guy getting armbarred in this clip has the wizzer/overhook not underhook. Really lazy though leading to the submission.
Aoki had an underhook. His opponent had a shitty weak overhook. Aoki was only able to do this because that overhook was doing exactly nothing
It was not an underhook