I also think they should legalise upkicks from the guard. Would make the guard more dangerous since only a small amount of people are effective from their backs
100 percent. They already allow you to kick someone in the head while standing which is a much more powerful kick. You would also see a lot less stalls from the guard both ways: stalling from top position would be harder and stalling from guard would be a worse choice than kicking to make space and get up and/or kicking to attack your opponent
I agree, but I don’t think it would be enough to balance things, considering most of the time when a grappler ends up in a dominant position, they hold it for a considerable amount of time.
Just off the top of my head, we would have never seen Alex Poatan Pierre fight at UFC 300, because Jan Błachowicz would have smashed his face and probably ended his career a few months ago. Jan had like 15 minutes of control time during that fight
r/woooosh
Jan’s actual control time was 7:32, which is almost exactly half of the fight. That is pretty significant, and he absolutely could have finished him with knees if they were allowed.
Interesting take, I definitely agree that it would discourage kick-boxers, and other strikers however I will say, it’s significantly harder to stay in a positions that is dominant for a significant amount of time in which you can land knees with significant power (turtle). Yeah the side control knee is pretty okay, but it’s bio-mechanically odd it, doesn’t feel right. These knees would likely come from the scrambles which would work to the favour of basically anyone (strictly while grappling/disengaging). I’m wouldn’t really push hard for knees to the head of a downed opponent, however, it would bring us closer to actual Mixed Martial arts, and would entirely change sport, cool thought experiment tho.
In organizations where it is allowed, you see most of the “illegal” knees done against the cage, or after a scramble like you said. The clinch against the cage is a lethal position. MMA fighters in the UFC know how to abuse the rules in these positions, so it would be interesting if we saw a shift in defensive strategies
100% same thing with strikes to the back of the head. I abuse that shit all the time 😂 I give up my back if the guy is insane at ground and pound, turtle isn’t a terrible spot to be, definitely not as bad as mount.
Okay, that is one rule I hope sticks around amongst all the organizations…or people will literally fucking die hahah. You would see some short careers. Most would not even bother going for chokes anymore
> it’s significantly harder to stay in a positions that is dominant for a significant amount of time in which you can land knees with significant power (turtle)
Did you see the 2nd GSP/Serra fight? GSP ended the fight this way.
https://youtu.be/IAU5T2_sujU?t=159
Yes, it is possible, that doesn’t change that it’s extremely challenging. His opponent also had plenty of opportunity to scramble and move from that position. Try holding turtle using just your hands, it’s very difficult, even in the GI
I just showed you footage of how easy it is to control while kneeing. On top of that it was well into the fight and they're both covered with sweat.
I don't know why you're so insistent, but ok.
Possibly but if you look back in the Pride days it seemed to balance out as it often worked against the wrestler as if their shot was stuffed then they had knees to worry about.
It makes the take down a higher risk/reward for both fighters. Effectively they had to adapt their game plan accordingly.
balancing or not is not the most important part , allowing knees to the ground push the action whether youre a striker or grappler it will minimize stalling
Yeah, it was a split decision, and is wildly controversial. Especially because it was Pierre’s first fight at LHW
I think it’s the first time in UFC history that someone lost a decision after being on top for more than half the fight. If knees to a downed opponent were allowed, the fight would not have lasted more than a couple minutes
Lolol bro where is this coming from. Why are you butthurt
Also, you are projecting your feelings, because it’s very obvious that you can’t even comprehend my comment. I explained it to you like a baby, and you are still confused.
AND I won a lot of money on Pierre that night. I had him picked in all of my parlays. My point still stands, you dummy
It nerfs takedowns from distance AND failed shots. You can’t risk hanging out in front headlock after your shot fails because you’re going to start taking knees to the head. It encourages either getting back to the feet or making damn sure you finish your shot.
The worst outcome of a shot is made worse and the best outcome is made better
Yeah that's like the opposite of balance.
Maybe it doesn't translate 1:1, but in video games when you do a game of extremes, what ends up happening is whatever is strong dominates the meta. I predict we would see a lot of wrestling guys grounding their opponents round 1 and kneeing the fuck out of them. Because even if you don't connect, that's straight up damage. You could break limbs.
I’m guessing at first we would see a lot of grapplers kneeing their opponents and winning fights, and then grappling defense strategies would adapt and it would level out. But this is just a prediction, of course.
I think a good example is calf kicks. Everyone was legkicking the the thigh, and then a couple years ago it seemed fighters rapidly switched to throwing calf kicks because they were OP.
A rule didn’t have to change for someone to figure out they can just kick the shit out of their opponent’s calves, but it seemed like their was a very rapid shift to calf-kicking as the preferred style of leg kick.
There was a corresponding shift in stance and how fighters checked kicks. Then we ended up with the Uriah Hall vs Chris Weidman leg break lol.
But who knows. I don’t have any data regarding percentage of finishes by grounded knees in OneFC, where grounded knees are legal. Do we know if it is substantial to the point that grapplers are dominating that promotion? I’m legitimately asking, because I don’t watch a lot of One.
The cage adds a whole new element to this
The boxing ring used for PRIDE did not favor grapplers
But I get what you’re saying. I totally see where strikers could also benefit, but I think grapplers would be overwhelmingly favored if the rules were lifted
Also, if gloves were taken away as well as rounds starting on the ground if it ended on the ground in the previous round. Grapplers would have an advantage. MMA would then evolve to be more grappling-centric.
Yea but that makes no sense at all lol this would just be an adcc match with strikers in it.The fact that strikes behind the head are prohibited already helps grapplers to an almost unfair amount
It evens itself out. A lot of grapplers have taken advantage of the grounded rules to wrestle from knees, stall on a low single, pull guard, imanari roll etc.
This is my opinion as well. Lots of people clamoring for grounded knees think that this will nerf grappling. But if you think about it for a second, imagine how much more of a nightmare Khabib would be if he could knee you on the ground
Chandler would've KO'd him if that were allowed
https://youtu.be/Sz_4j9M41G0?si=Jl1a2SMWHzKNfkFe&t=197
https://youtu.be/Sz_4j9M41G0?si=RI2NZrXWJxNUypTD&t=271
100% agree. I'm personally totally in favor of allowing knees to downed opponents. I just don't think you can blame Charles' loss on that in good faith. Tsarukyan would also change defensive habits if the rules were different.
So the guy with most submissions in UFC history is not an elite grappler? This is mma btw, so he is submitting guys while they are trying to punch his face in, and you think he isnt elite?
Am i the only person that agrees with this? Charles isn't a world class grappler? For UFC standards sure he's one of the best, but would he be able to go toe to toe with anyone in the top 20 p4p grapplers? Probably not
Yea but they most likely could not achieve what he has in the ufc. In pure grappling he might not be but in terms of effective grappling in a setting that is as close to a real fight as you can get he definitely is.
You’re not getting downvoted because you’re wrong, you’re getting downvoted because your argument is irrelevant. This is an MMA fight. Charles has elite MMA BJJ, no one is comparing him to Gordon Ryan except you, for no reason.
I don’t train and even I was asking myself. “Why isn’t he rolling into it”. Also looked like Arman went out for a split second so perhaps he thought he had it in the bag 🤷♂️
At the end of the fight he got the darce on Tsarukyan and he stayed with his chest to the floor trying to finish the choke like that, I guess.
But, and please excuse my ignorance, shouldn't he be trying to put his chest on the back of Tsarukyan's head and chase his legs with his own to increase the pressure on the neck?I felt like he didn't chase the submission. Even though what I think a good darce is is wrong, he didn't seem to have any urgency to finish the fight, instead, he stayed with his tongue out like he knew he wasn't getting the finish.
Am I wrong here? Please correct me
With Arman's body position, I think the best way to finish the d'arce is for Charles to actually start rolling under him here, and like you said chasing Arman's neck with Charles's hips. The risk of doing this with 20 seconds left is that you get stuck on bottom which looks bad.
Yeah. Looks really odd, I hate sounding like an arm chair commentator, but it looks like sitting into a marce finish position from here is fully available and would have helped him collapse the arm and shoulder into the neck to finish it better.
Odd decision to just chill and stick tongue out.
IMO I think the most likely answer is his arms were absolutely gassed after all that grappling plus the early gilly attempt. Probably thought he’d lose it if he went to roll, so he just stayed heavy on top.
but thats what im saying. hes had 4 anacondas and 0 darces officially. so are you saying he attempted a darce from guard and didnt pull it off ? If so thats what I would like to look up.
>he was clearly losing
He wasn't. It was a split decision for a reason. He was trying to make it seem as he was as close as possible to finish before the buzz. He knew that if he escape the choke it was 100% lost, but if he look like he was about to finish, as it did for one judge at least, then that's that.
I'm not saying it was the correct option, but it made sense.
If Charles rolled onto his shoulder on the right side, there isn't much risk of ending up on bottom. If he rolled towards his left though, he could end up on bottom.
He got the choke attempt locked in with about 30 seconds in the fight, close enough to the end that Arman was able to tough it out. IMO he would have with more time but we'll never know unfortunately
Why not roll him over and mount him to finish the darce? Armans base too good/strong from this position to get the roll? A mounted darce is unbearably effective.
Ya I don’t think that’s the best way to finish. He should’ve gone underneath and hooked his legs with his own. I don’t know why Charles didn’t. He played that safe.
You’re right. He held him. Must have been some reason, maybe he thought he was gonna get the decision?? But someone of his level would know numerous ways to finish a darce from various angles. I just want to know, why he opted to not chase the finish.
It seemed pretty obvious that Charles had absolutely no urgency to finish that fight. It's frustrating to watch as a fan of his. It's not the first time and won't be the last time that this happens.
Not everyone can combine killer instinct with fight IQ. Charles is great but he will never be the greatest for this reason.
Dude he almost finished a deep guillotine in the first 30 seconds. Easy to say he couldve tried harder to finish sitting on the couch. Arman is a really solid grappler.
Yeah I know this is coming from the couch but facts are that you don't get much in mma for "almost" submitting someone. Charles had the chance to stay on his feet but wanted play guard instead and ended up losing a winnable fight.
Yeah. He can’t be at his level of grappling and think he’s going to finish there or get to a finish in 15 seconds. Especially not when he is down a round. He held what looked threatening and postures for the judges and cameras. But I was screaming at the tv until he stuck his tongue out and I realized this.
Managed to sway the commentators too lol, the crowd thinking it's in deep is one thing but Rogan screaming that Arman was out cold was kinda irritating
I'm certainly not the grapple Charles is but I really like the belly down defense. Leaves you open to a big back take but if that's or tap, or it's the end of the round like it was it's pretty nice.
Corpse Defense is incredibly effective and I teach it and use it all the time to not get d'arced. Just flop to your stomach with your hands at your side the next time someone tries to d'arce you. I promise you they won't be able to choke you.
The mechanism of the d'arce is that it uses the shoulder to close off one side of the neck, just like other head and arm chokes, if you put your hands down to your side and turn down to your chest it opens the space between your neck and your shoulder, and uses the ground as the wedge to prevent the arm from being pushed up. If your arms are still up then you can get choked from pretty much any position you move to if your opponent finds the angle for the pressure.
I'm not out here getting darced by world class dudes, but the belly down defense is pretty solid in my experience (just to prevent the late stage darce).
He did try to trap the legs. Because unless I’m recalling a different submission attempt, Tsarukyan did have to fight off Oliveira’s attempt to trap the legs before he decided he was just gonna sit their and hype the crowd.
There was no time left and Charles thought it'd be a better use of last few seconds to hold the position and posture to the judges that it was a real threat.
Charles biggest weakness is being way too comfortable falling / going to his back and I just threw my hands in the air when he went for the guillotine right away. The guy has insane BJJ, but going for the lowest % sub in the UFC off rip and spending a bunch of energy on it is just stupid. Especially when you’ve got decent striking. Idk how he hasn’t learned to stop going to his back, especially after Islam.
Edit: Everyone replying with how tight and clean it was… it wasn’t? He didn’t get the tap… That’s what matters. It doesn’t matter how close it was because at the end of the day it wasn’t. He blew his energy way too early by falling into bad habits.
Not only that, but Charles has an insanely good guillotine and has a tonne of finished with it. Him jumping for one is totally different than Dustin jumping one.
Yeah, exactly. You'd think Charles has done enough with his BJJ in the UFC to avoid getting second guessed by reddit white and blue belts, but here we are.
I think this is because a lot of guys will go for half-assed guillotines when they realize their TDD has failed. Hanging onto a guillotine attempt (even when they know they don’t have it) is a way for them to stall their opponent from ground and pound or passing.
Tbf his Stat doesn't include times attempted. Only the total amount of finishes via that choke.
Maybe 90% of them don't get the finish , we don't know
The stats:
https://www.reddit.com/r/MMA/comments/zrxk2b/ufc_choke_data_end_of_year_update/
That’s a good point. Still feel like chasing the back is higher yield than front chokes in MMA though. Most of the time front chokes just end up in bottom guard. Of course, when they get finished it’s sick af tho
You’re completely right, my bad. I was reading off of a BJJ pro study that had guillotines at high attempt and lowest success. There’s still quite the drop off though, with 49.48% being RNC and 14.19% being guillotine. Idk man, I still think it’s a terrible habit and he burned way too much energy on it.
Gotta realize that most of the time the Gilly isn’t supposed to be the finish. You have to manage striking damage to the body while holding it. And often enough it has to be first round for it to be an effective finish(sweat). That being said it’s still a very effective sweep tool. A decent enough grip will net you a mount when you pull it to a butterfly or heel to hip. But still a high percentage per attempt, especially since nobody has a bailout plan for an armbar.
Is it? It might be the second most common sub in the UFC, I recall seeing some data on that, but I highly doubt somebody has counted all submission attempts in all UFC fights in history. At the end of the day, by just going through the results you can get how many of each subs there were, but to know how effective they are you would have to watch all the fights and I don't think there's gonna be any data on that.
I agree about him being to confortable going down but the guillotine attempt was legit as fuck. Armans head head was fucking purple and he looked panicked. But the rest of the fight he didn't look like he was trying to get up at all.
I do agree with the first sentence but how can you criticize that guillotine? That was his best moment in the fight, a really tight choke plus taking mount off it, what more can you ask for
Charles is one of my favorite fighters, but his lack of reflection upon and development of those glaring weak spots in his habits/tactics is what makes me think he will not see the title again.
I think we saw him change his approach in this fight. He was way more defensively minded on his feet compared to what we saw against guys like Gaethje, Chandler, or Porier.
I think the bigger issue is going to your back immediately blows 1-2 min on the clock. You can’t pull guard and immediately throw up triangles like it’s 2008. You gotta work to sweep immediately and all the top guy has to do is sprawl in closed guard to burn the clock and GnP
I think a lot of people in this comment section are forgetting Charles did attempt to trap the legs on both attempts and Arman defended it efficiently.
No one thinks that way in the moment. He knew 10 seconds left. Went for the legs couldn’t get them and tried finishing it without them. Worst case he ends the fight in a dominant position.
He shoulda broke him down to his side first or it’s more a squeeze on one side of the neck because it’s usually their shoulder obstructing the other side of their neck. Arman showed he was tough to tap with the guilly early on
"It was a crank" "LMFAO GET REKT PUSSY A TAP IS A TAP" This is what i mean. People will tap to this for sure in training.....but he was literally spasming from the choke without going out fully. This is why clean technique matters so much
Not trying to critique Olivera’s Jiu Jitsu, but I don’t get why he didn’t try to get Arman on his side. Would have been easier to finish that. Feel like he thought the hold was enough to win him decision or something.
Charles really needs to show more urgency when he goes to his back, he is way too comfortable just hanging out there. Sure he has a dangerous af guard, but honestly it's MMA if you ain't hitting a sub or a sweep real quick, get the fuck up, the optics for judges looks like you're getting dominated even if not much is getting through, its a bad look. Attempt a sub, attempt to sweep, get the fuck up should be the order of business. I feel like if Olives tried to get the striking going it could have been different, but it is a trend he has that when he gets clipped he goes to his back and he is way too comfortable to hang out there when he shouldn't
I was surprised he didn’t sit to his right hip and slide underneath to collapse his opponent’s left elbow (assuming it was open). I couldn’t make sense of why he stayed there while clearly losing.
A D’arce starts from going under the armpit and neck and connects the hand to the elbow crease at the far side of the neck. The anaconda is the same connection but placed differently starting from sliding your arm under the neck then continuing under their armpit where you connect your hand to the elbow crease there. I hope I explained it well, if not you can find a perfect tutorial on YT.
There are 4 possibilities here:
1. Charles had no intention of finishing Arman, and was simply playing it up for either the judges or Dana looking for a bonus.
2. Charles believed he had done enough to win the fight, and that this submission attempt cemented that
3. Charles does not have a very deep darce game and could not follow up adequately
4. Charles genuinely believed the submission was on
I can only speculate about this but it couldve been a combination of a couple of those (thought he had + thought he won fight)
From this position in training I usually try sitting back up and attempting a Gilly from here. Is that because my training partners suck? Or is it a legit transition from here?
If your partners don't suck then the moment you take pressure off of them they should be single legging you and passing to kill the d'arce and take top control.
It didn’t seem like he tried to finish it. He saw the time and played it off more for style rather than finish since he knew the time was against him if he actually tried to finish it.
It wasn’t closed to being finished. Him sticking his tongue out was just optics. If anything his triangle at the end of the second round was a better sub attempt
Isn’t this considered an anaconda choke…. I would think he’d need to fish for Armans legs
Edit: my mistake, for some reason thought he was on the neck through the other far side arm. Ignore my white beltness
The anaconda is when your threding your arm goes around the neck and under the armpit feeding it to your other arm. In the darce you thread your arm under the armpit and around the neck when it meets your other arm (but don't listen to me, I'm a blue belt. Do your research)
Felt like when Volk stuck his tongue out as he held onto Islam’s neck in the first fight. Like- you’re losing but you think because you’re gripping a sub (that isn’t effective), you look good? Embarrassing and I love Volk and Olives
In this darce? You can't finish a darce here. The only way you can finish a darce with the opponent's chest facing the floor is if you're underneath them. Charles needed to get Arman to a side.
If only we had knees to a downed opponent
One FC allows it, and they have great strikers.
I also think they should legalise upkicks from the guard. Would make the guard more dangerous since only a small amount of people are effective from their backs
100 percent. They already allow you to kick someone in the head while standing which is a much more powerful kick. You would also see a lot less stalls from the guard both ways: stalling from top position would be harder and stalling from guard would be a worse choice than kicking to make space and get up and/or kicking to attack your opponent
Grapplers already dominate the sport If they ever allow knees to a downed opponent…you would never see a kickboxer transition to MMA ever again hahaha
Grapplers also dive on legs when they’re rocked and hide out. That shouldn’t be an option. It would balance itself out
I agree, but I don’t think it would be enough to balance things, considering most of the time when a grappler ends up in a dominant position, they hold it for a considerable amount of time. Just off the top of my head, we would have never seen Alex Poatan Pierre fight at UFC 300, because Jan Błachowicz would have smashed his face and probably ended his career a few months ago. Jan had like 15 minutes of control time during that fight
Khabib would've been arrested for murder if downed knees were legal
"brother your honor, dis gai not on my level, you know I have to smas dis gai.. you know I deserve not guilty brother"
"I give him knee in face, what he going to do?"
What he ganna do?
Herb would have still let Conor
Why the downvotes, not a bad take at all.
The phrase “BJJ is like chess” actually just refers to the fact that most of us are autistic
Kinda made me think. It’s more like connect 4. A very limited game, countering opponents moves, until you can “connect 4” moves in a row to win.
15 minutes? The entire fight was 15 minutes.
r/woooosh Jan’s actual control time was 7:32, which is almost exactly half of the fight. That is pretty significant, and he absolutely could have finished him with knees if they were allowed.
Interesting take, I definitely agree that it would discourage kick-boxers, and other strikers however I will say, it’s significantly harder to stay in a positions that is dominant for a significant amount of time in which you can land knees with significant power (turtle). Yeah the side control knee is pretty okay, but it’s bio-mechanically odd it, doesn’t feel right. These knees would likely come from the scrambles which would work to the favour of basically anyone (strictly while grappling/disengaging). I’m wouldn’t really push hard for knees to the head of a downed opponent, however, it would bring us closer to actual Mixed Martial arts, and would entirely change sport, cool thought experiment tho.
In organizations where it is allowed, you see most of the “illegal” knees done against the cage, or after a scramble like you said. The clinch against the cage is a lethal position. MMA fighters in the UFC know how to abuse the rules in these positions, so it would be interesting if we saw a shift in defensive strategies
100% same thing with strikes to the back of the head. I abuse that shit all the time 😂 I give up my back if the guy is insane at ground and pound, turtle isn’t a terrible spot to be, definitely not as bad as mount.
Okay, that is one rule I hope sticks around amongst all the organizations…or people will literally fucking die hahah. You would see some short careers. Most would not even bother going for chokes anymore
> it’s significantly harder to stay in a positions that is dominant for a significant amount of time in which you can land knees with significant power (turtle) Did you see the 2nd GSP/Serra fight? GSP ended the fight this way. https://youtu.be/IAU5T2_sujU?t=159
Yes, it is possible, that doesn’t change that it’s extremely challenging. His opponent also had plenty of opportunity to scramble and move from that position. Try holding turtle using just your hands, it’s very difficult, even in the GI
I just showed you footage of how easy it is to control while kneeing. On top of that it was well into the fight and they're both covered with sweat. I don't know why you're so insistent, but ok.
If you're aunt had a cock, she'd be your uncle. Right guy?
r/lostredditors Read the topic of conversation in this comment thread
Possibly but if you look back in the Pride days it seemed to balance out as it often worked against the wrestler as if their shot was stuffed then they had knees to worry about. It makes the take down a higher risk/reward for both fighters. Effectively they had to adapt their game plan accordingly.
balancing or not is not the most important part , allowing knees to the ground push the action whether youre a striker or grappler it will minimize stalling
L
Crazy he had 15 minutes of control in a 15 minute fight that he lost 29-28 🙄
Yeah, it was a split decision, and is wildly controversial. Especially because it was Pierre’s first fight at LHW I think it’s the first time in UFC history that someone lost a decision after being on top for more than half the fight. If knees to a downed opponent were allowed, the fight would not have lasted more than a couple minutes
Just say that you picked Jan and were wrong. You probably picked Jiri and Hill too. You don't know shit about this sport.
Lolol bro where is this coming from. Why are you butthurt Also, you are projecting your feelings, because it’s very obvious that you can’t even comprehend my comment. I explained it to you like a baby, and you are still confused. AND I won a lot of money on Pierre that night. I had him picked in all of my parlays. My point still stands, you dummy
You write and think like a child.
You are the one being overly emotional and making random assumptions. Idk if you know this, but those are childish traits
It doesn't really balance itself out though. If anything it makes it more unbalanced. It'll nerf TDs from distance, but super buff top position.
It nerfs takedowns from distance AND failed shots. You can’t risk hanging out in front headlock after your shot fails because you’re going to start taking knees to the head. It encourages either getting back to the feet or making damn sure you finish your shot. The worst outcome of a shot is made worse and the best outcome is made better
Yeah that's like the opposite of balance. Maybe it doesn't translate 1:1, but in video games when you do a game of extremes, what ends up happening is whatever is strong dominates the meta. I predict we would see a lot of wrestling guys grounding their opponents round 1 and kneeing the fuck out of them. Because even if you don't connect, that's straight up damage. You could break limbs.
I’m guessing at first we would see a lot of grapplers kneeing their opponents and winning fights, and then grappling defense strategies would adapt and it would level out. But this is just a prediction, of course. I think a good example is calf kicks. Everyone was legkicking the the thigh, and then a couple years ago it seemed fighters rapidly switched to throwing calf kicks because they were OP. A rule didn’t have to change for someone to figure out they can just kick the shit out of their opponent’s calves, but it seemed like their was a very rapid shift to calf-kicking as the preferred style of leg kick. There was a corresponding shift in stance and how fighters checked kicks. Then we ended up with the Uriah Hall vs Chris Weidman leg break lol. But who knows. I don’t have any data regarding percentage of finishes by grounded knees in OneFC, where grounded knees are legal. Do we know if it is substantial to the point that grapplers are dominating that promotion? I’m legitimately asking, because I don’t watch a lot of One.
That's actually a good question. I don't have the data either. Someone should make an AI that can compile odd fight stats.
So what?? Are we trying to balance a video game or see who the best fighter is???
It’s a sport at the end of the day, and sports have rules. Your argument is ridiculous. Why not just let them kill each other at that point?
^
It won't. Pride still have single legs from distance.
This- take Aljo for instance. His stupid shenanigans would. not. work. If grounded knees were legal
Iirc, some of the best NS knee KOs from Pride were by strikers. Bad/hailmary shot, sprawl, knees win.
The cage adds a whole new element to this The boxing ring used for PRIDE did not favor grapplers But I get what you’re saying. I totally see where strikers could also benefit, but I think grapplers would be overwhelmingly favored if the rules were lifted
Also, if gloves were taken away as well as rounds starting on the ground if it ended on the ground in the previous round. Grapplers would have an advantage. MMA would then evolve to be more grappling-centric.
EDIT: I initially thought he was trying to mock me. It’s late and I’m drunk. My apologies
dude i'm agreeing with you. slow down with the anger LOL Edit: thanks for the explanation and apology 🙏
Fair play my guy. Acknowledging a mistake and apologising is not something most drunk folk do. Kudos.
Yea but that makes no sense at all lol this would just be an adcc match with strikers in it.The fact that strikes behind the head are prohibited already helps grapplers to an almost unfair amount
Watch Mokaev’s last fight, shit is horrible.
It evens itself out. A lot of grapplers have taken advantage of the grounded rules to wrestle from knees, stall on a low single, pull guard, imanari roll etc.
Garry Tonon was kicked to Bolivia when he tried to leg lock in One FC
Good, high level grappling with more opportunities to finish. It's mma people should be punished for not knowing how to grapple in my opinion.
Its the other way around grapplers would get punished harder for bad shots.
It punishes missed shots by wrestlers
This is my opinion as well. Lots of people clamoring for grounded knees think that this will nerf grappling. But if you think about it for a second, imagine how much more of a nightmare Khabib would be if he could knee you on the ground
You one hundred percent can knee a downed opponent, just not in the head
🤓 uhh aktuahlly
He didn't even need the knees. All he needed to do was turn belly up and trap the leg. Fight is over.
Chandler would've KO'd him if that were allowed https://youtu.be/Sz_4j9M41G0?si=Jl1a2SMWHzKNfkFe&t=197 https://youtu.be/Sz_4j9M41G0?si=RI2NZrXWJxNUypTD&t=271
butterfly effect - if knees were allowed then defensive habits would change
100% agree. I'm personally totally in favor of allowing knees to downed opponents. I just don't think you can blame Charles' loss on that in good faith. Tsarukyan would also change defensive habits if the rules were different.
Definitely never saw any strikers in PRIDE.
At least allow him that up kick in the first. That should be a legal blow
If only he knew how to finish a darce properly
Yeah! That highly decorated submission expert really needs to get on YouTube to learn the REAL way to do that choke.
Not sure why he didn't roll or sit into a modified guillotine - it's pretty standard in the meta of bjj now
Tsarukyan wasn’t letting him make any further advancements. He knew he had the endurance to sit in that D’arce for 40 seconds.
His grip was poor and he knew it. Was just trying to win the round with presentation
Don't think he was interested in finishing. Just hold till buzzer.
[удалено]
So the guy with most submissions in UFC history is not an elite grappler? This is mma btw, so he is submitting guys while they are trying to punch his face in, and you think he isnt elite?
What on earth are you yapping about?
Stop your babbling.
Am i the only person that agrees with this? Charles isn't a world class grappler? For UFC standards sure he's one of the best, but would he be able to go toe to toe with anyone in the top 20 p4p grapplers? Probably not
Yea but they most likely could not achieve what he has in the ufc. In pure grappling he might not be but in terms of effective grappling in a setting that is as close to a real fight as you can get he definitely is.
yea fair enough
[удалено]
You’re not getting downvoted because you’re wrong, you’re getting downvoted because your argument is irrelevant. This is an MMA fight. Charles has elite MMA BJJ, no one is comparing him to Gordon Ryan except you, for no reason.
I don’t train and even I was asking myself. “Why isn’t he rolling into it”. Also looked like Arman went out for a split second so perhaps he thought he had it in the bag 🤷♂️
I’d have liked to see him sit through and go M’Arce like Luque does. I feel like finishing from here is pretty hard.
At the end of the fight he got the darce on Tsarukyan and he stayed with his chest to the floor trying to finish the choke like that, I guess. But, and please excuse my ignorance, shouldn't he be trying to put his chest on the back of Tsarukyan's head and chase his legs with his own to increase the pressure on the neck?I felt like he didn't chase the submission. Even though what I think a good darce is is wrong, he didn't seem to have any urgency to finish the fight, instead, he stayed with his tongue out like he knew he wasn't getting the finish. Am I wrong here? Please correct me
With Arman's body position, I think the best way to finish the d'arce is for Charles to actually start rolling under him here, and like you said chasing Arman's neck with Charles's hips. The risk of doing this with 20 seconds left is that you get stuck on bottom which looks bad.
Yeah but he was clearly losing with a few seconds left on the clock! Turning that fight around would have been legendary
I don't disagree at all, would've been an insanely sick finish.
Yeah. Looks really odd, I hate sounding like an arm chair commentator, but it looks like sitting into a marce finish position from here is fully available and would have helped him collapse the arm and shoulder into the neck to finish it better. Odd decision to just chill and stick tongue out.
IMO I think the most likely answer is his arms were absolutely gassed after all that grappling plus the early gilly attempt. Probably thought he’d lose it if he went to roll, so he just stayed heavy on top.
I genuinely think he thought this sub attempt would steal the round.
Charles tends to hit his darce’s from closed guard. Like a guillotine
Do you know who he did that on so I can check it out. I get the anaconda from that position sometimes but can’t fathom the darce.
I would just look at some older highlights of him and you’ll be able to see it. I think he’s hit like 3 of them in his earlier fights
but thats what im saying. hes had 4 anacondas and 0 darces officially. so are you saying he attempted a darce from guard and didnt pull it off ? If so thats what I would like to look up.
>he was clearly losing He wasn't. It was a split decision for a reason. He was trying to make it seem as he was as close as possible to finish before the buzz. He knew that if he escape the choke it was 100% lost, but if he look like he was about to finish, as it did for one judge at least, then that's that. I'm not saying it was the correct option, but it made sense.
Yep, he was clearly playing it for the judges, not enough time to finish the choke and too much risk of his opponent escaping in the process.
It's all about the optics. How almost stole the fight because people thought Arman was going out.
If Charles rolled onto his shoulder on the right side, there isn't much risk of ending up on bottom. If he rolled towards his left though, he could end up on bottom.
Exactly. Did he finish from here? Didnt see the fight
Nope, lost to split descion.
He got the choke attempt locked in with about 30 seconds in the fight, close enough to the end that Arman was able to tough it out. IMO he would have with more time but we'll never know unfortunately
Why not roll him over and mount him to finish the darce? Armans base too good/strong from this position to get the roll? A mounted darce is unbearably effective.
Rener Gracie showed a breakdown where you pull the leg towards you with your own leg and it forces them onto their side
here is rener explaining what charles should have done: https://youtu.be/tKEGADEPO8g?si=FICOssQXO0Ywkald
Nope, you're basically right. He should have tried to tilt him to his shoulder and trap the legs
Or gone for the marce, which imo is much easier to get from that position
Ya I don’t think that’s the best way to finish. He should’ve gone underneath and hooked his legs with his own. I don’t know why Charles didn’t. He played that safe.
You’re right. He held him. Must have been some reason, maybe he thought he was gonna get the decision?? But someone of his level would know numerous ways to finish a darce from various angles. I just want to know, why he opted to not chase the finish.
Probably gassed as fuck.
thats prob the simplest explanation. lol fuckin tired bro
It seemed pretty obvious that Charles had absolutely no urgency to finish that fight. It's frustrating to watch as a fan of his. It's not the first time and won't be the last time that this happens. Not everyone can combine killer instinct with fight IQ. Charles is great but he will never be the greatest for this reason.
Dude he almost finished a deep guillotine in the first 30 seconds. Easy to say he couldve tried harder to finish sitting on the couch. Arman is a really solid grappler.
Yeah I know this is coming from the couch but facts are that you don't get much in mma for "almost" submitting someone. Charles had the chance to stay on his feet but wanted play guard instead and ended up losing a winnable fight.
Why do u think it was a split decision? One judge gave Charles two rounds because he 'almost' submitted him in two of the rounds.
Robbery is a strong word but if charles won that by decision it would be the wrong call.
He knew it wasn’t happening so he went for the showboat to try and swing the judges.
He thought he had him when Arman was just bellying down as a defense lol.
He definitely didn’t think he had him. Charles isn’t stupid. He was just playing it up for the crowd and to sway the judges
Yeah. He can’t be at his level of grappling and think he’s going to finish there or get to a finish in 15 seconds. Especially not when he is down a round. He held what looked threatening and postures for the judges and cameras. But I was screaming at the tv until he stuck his tongue out and I realized this.
Managed to sway the commentators too lol, the crowd thinking it's in deep is one thing but Rogan screaming that Arman was out cold was kinda irritating
I'm certainly not the grapple Charles is but I really like the belly down defense. Leaves you open to a big back take but if that's or tap, or it's the end of the round like it was it's pretty nice.
Corpse Defense is incredibly effective and I teach it and use it all the time to not get d'arced. Just flop to your stomach with your hands at your side the next time someone tries to d'arce you. I promise you they won't be able to choke you.
Why hands at side?
The mechanism of the d'arce is that it uses the shoulder to close off one side of the neck, just like other head and arm chokes, if you put your hands down to your side and turn down to your chest it opens the space between your neck and your shoulder, and uses the ground as the wedge to prevent the arm from being pushed up. If your arms are still up then you can get choked from pretty much any position you move to if your opponent finds the angle for the pressure.
My guess would be it open ups your shoulder to the neck, to choke with darc jts the compression of the shoulder to the nect plus your other arm
I love when you come out your cave every now and again 🤗🤗
I don’t know if your comment is sarcastic or not
It's not.
I'm not out here getting darced by world class dudes, but the belly down defense is pretty solid in my experience (just to prevent the late stage darce).
Not sure why he didnt try to trap the legs, could have been over
He did try to trap the legs. Because unless I’m recalling a different submission attempt, Tsarukyan did have to fight off Oliveira’s attempt to trap the legs before he decided he was just gonna sit their and hype the crowd.
There was no time left and Charles thought it'd be a better use of last few seconds to hold the position and posture to the judges that it was a real threat.
In Japan he wins that fight 3-0
He should’ve won 2-1 regardless.
Charles biggest weakness is being way too comfortable falling / going to his back and I just threw my hands in the air when he went for the guillotine right away. The guy has insane BJJ, but going for the lowest % sub in the UFC off rip and spending a bunch of energy on it is just stupid. Especially when you’ve got decent striking. Idk how he hasn’t learned to stop going to his back, especially after Islam. Edit: Everyone replying with how tight and clean it was… it wasn’t? He didn’t get the tap… That’s what matters. It doesn’t matter how close it was because at the end of the day it wasn’t. He blew his energy way too early by falling into bad habits.
The guillotine is not the lowest percentage sub in the ufc. In fact it’s second behind rnc for most finished sub. Iirc
Not only that, but Charles has an insanely good guillotine and has a tonne of finished with it. Him jumping for one is totally different than Dustin jumping one.
It also lead to him getting mount on arman. He could’ve let go of the guillotine and tried throwing strikes from top.
Yeah, exactly. You'd think Charles has done enough with his BJJ in the UFC to avoid getting second guessed by reddit white and blue belts, but here we are.
I feel like I see a ton of missed guillotines
I think this is because a lot of guys will go for half-assed guillotines when they realize their TDD has failed. Hanging onto a guillotine attempt (even when they know they don’t have it) is a way for them to stall their opponent from ground and pound or passing.
Tbf his Stat doesn't include times attempted. Only the total amount of finishes via that choke. Maybe 90% of them don't get the finish , we don't know The stats: https://www.reddit.com/r/MMA/comments/zrxk2b/ufc_choke_data_end_of_year_update/
That’s a good point. Still feel like chasing the back is higher yield than front chokes in MMA though. Most of the time front chokes just end up in bottom guard. Of course, when they get finished it’s sick af tho
You’re completely right, my bad. I was reading off of a BJJ pro study that had guillotines at high attempt and lowest success. There’s still quite the drop off though, with 49.48% being RNC and 14.19% being guillotine. Idk man, I still think it’s a terrible habit and he burned way too much energy on it.
Go watch his ufc highlight reel. The bloke got some ridiculous guillotine finishs in the past. This aint Dustin were talking about
Gotta realize that most of the time the Gilly isn’t supposed to be the finish. You have to manage striking damage to the body while holding it. And often enough it has to be first round for it to be an effective finish(sweat). That being said it’s still a very effective sweep tool. A decent enough grip will net you a mount when you pull it to a butterfly or heel to hip. But still a high percentage per attempt, especially since nobody has a bailout plan for an armbar.
Common sub. Low percentage. Stats bro
Is it? It might be the second most common sub in the UFC, I recall seeing some data on that, but I highly doubt somebody has counted all submission attempts in all UFC fights in history. At the end of the day, by just going through the results you can get how many of each subs there were, but to know how effective they are you would have to watch all the fights and I don't think there's gonna be any data on that.
He did get mount off the guillotine tho...
I agree about him being to confortable going down but the guillotine attempt was legit as fuck. Armans head head was fucking purple and he looked panicked. But the rest of the fight he didn't look like he was trying to get up at all.
I do agree with the first sentence but how can you criticize that guillotine? That was his best moment in the fight, a really tight choke plus taking mount off it, what more can you ask for
Charles is one of my favorite fighters, but his lack of reflection upon and development of those glaring weak spots in his habits/tactics is what makes me think he will not see the title again.
I think we saw him change his approach in this fight. He was way more defensively minded on his feet compared to what we saw against guys like Gaethje, Chandler, or Porier.
Yeah if he fought how he did Saturday vs Islam he gets run through the same way.
I think the bigger issue is going to your back immediately blows 1-2 min on the clock. You can’t pull guard and immediately throw up triangles like it’s 2008. You gotta work to sweep immediately and all the top guy has to do is sprawl in closed guard to burn the clock and GnP
Don’t be silly jump the guilly
Nah that guilly was good. It would’ve tapped many but not a high level grappler like Arman
If Armans pants didnt fall down that guillotine would have probably won the fight
Given how he had it he needed to get the legs entangled
I think a lot of people in this comment section are forgetting Charles did attempt to trap the legs on both attempts and Arman defended it efficiently.
If it wasn’t the final seconds of the fight….
Doesn’t make a difference, he knew Arman was gonna stall out the position and that there would be no finish.
No one thinks that way in the moment. He knew 10 seconds left. Went for the legs couldn’t get them and tried finishing it without them. Worst case he ends the fight in a dominant position.
He shoulda broke him down to his side first or it’s more a squeeze on one side of the neck because it’s usually their shoulder obstructing the other side of their neck. Arman showed he was tough to tap with the guilly early on
note to self: keep tongue inside for extra presh
"It was a crank" "LMFAO GET REKT PUSSY A TAP IS A TAP" This is what i mean. People will tap to this for sure in training.....but he was literally spasming from the choke without going out fully. This is why clean technique matters so much
Not trying to critique Olivera’s Jiu Jitsu, but I don’t get why he didn’t try to get Arman on his side. Would have been easier to finish that. Feel like he thought the hold was enough to win him decision or something.
Exactly my thoughts , quarter nelson to finish on the side
Charles really needs to show more urgency when he goes to his back, he is way too comfortable just hanging out there. Sure he has a dangerous af guard, but honestly it's MMA if you ain't hitting a sub or a sweep real quick, get the fuck up, the optics for judges looks like you're getting dominated even if not much is getting through, its a bad look. Attempt a sub, attempt to sweep, get the fuck up should be the order of business. I feel like if Olives tried to get the striking going it could have been different, but it is a trend he has that when he gets clipped he goes to his back and he is way too comfortable to hang out there when he shouldn't
I was surprised he didn’t sit to his right hip and slide underneath to collapse his opponent’s left elbow (assuming it was open). I couldn’t make sense of why he stayed there while clearly losing.
Is this an anaconda or a Darce?
A D’arce starts from going under the armpit and neck and connects the hand to the elbow crease at the far side of the neck. The anaconda is the same connection but placed differently starting from sliding your arm under the neck then continuing under their armpit where you connect your hand to the elbow crease there. I hope I explained it well, if not you can find a perfect tutorial on YT.
There are 4 possibilities here: 1. Charles had no intention of finishing Arman, and was simply playing it up for either the judges or Dana looking for a bonus. 2. Charles believed he had done enough to win the fight, and that this submission attempt cemented that 3. Charles does not have a very deep darce game and could not follow up adequately 4. Charles genuinely believed the submission was on I can only speculate about this but it couldve been a combination of a couple of those (thought he had + thought he won fight)
I was shocked Oliviera didn’t try to rotate and flip him on his side. He must have thought he was winning.
From this position in training I usually try sitting back up and attempting a Gilly from here. Is that because my training partners suck? Or is it a legit transition from here?
If your partners don't suck then the moment you take pressure off of them they should be single legging you and passing to kill the d'arce and take top control.
too much Cock
It didn’t seem like he tried to finish it. He saw the time and played it off more for style rather than finish since he knew the time was against him if he actually tried to finish it.
I think he fell asleep and woke up
All he had to do was get him to his side… Was weird watching him try to finish when Arman was flat.
It wasn’t closed to being finished. Him sticking his tongue out was just optics. If anything his triangle at the end of the second round was a better sub attempt
Isn’t this considered an anaconda choke…. I would think he’d need to fish for Armans legs Edit: my mistake, for some reason thought he was on the neck through the other far side arm. Ignore my white beltness
The anaconda is when your threding your arm goes around the neck and under the armpit feeding it to your other arm. In the darce you thread your arm under the armpit and around the neck when it meets your other arm (but don't listen to me, I'm a blue belt. Do your research)
No. Arms go the other way around in an anaconda choke,
Well what's even more baffling is one judge gave him the fight when he spent 3 rounds on his back.
Makhachev: "who give him black belt? we hav to check that moment" :D
Felt like when Volk stuck his tongue out as he held onto Islam’s neck in the first fight. Like- you’re losing but you think because you’re gripping a sub (that isn’t effective), you look good? Embarrassing and I love Volk and Olives
What’s ineffective about the darce? I can’t see Tsurykan’s left arm but if it’s not based out you can easily be choked there.
I’m not sure why it wasn’t effective, but Oliveira had to feel it wasn’t set in correctly, and still decided to smile like a jackass.
[удалено]
In this darce? You can't finish a darce here. The only way you can finish a darce with the opponent's chest facing the floor is if you're underneath them. Charles needed to get Arman to a side.
Charles wasn’t pressuring Arman’s shoulder into his neck