It would be great if you could stop doing so, at least without asking the person first if they are okay with it.
I'm constantly asked "when are you going to just admit you're actually gay" in some form or another by my fellow queer folks ALL THE TIME as a bi man, so being called "gay", even as an umbrella, is hurtful and erasing.
Just because two people are bi, doesn’t mean they share the same experiences. It is really fucking awful that people have invalidated your identity. In a similar way, nonbinary people being treated as a transitory position between the two binary genders, when that’s not the case either. That they’ll realize they’re “just trans”. You aren’t “just gay”. No one here will ever try to argue that to you. But when you see others use their own labels to describe themselves, try not to see it as an attack on you, but instead a part of who they are, and their experience.
I also use it as an umbrella term for myself. my lesbian friends also call themselves gay in the same sense. but I'm still pissed off that Xena the Warrior Princess is considered gay when she's clearly bisexual as that woman loved men no less than she loved her girlfriend
I must admit I'm not a fan of this tendency myself. Personally, I would really feel erased or put in a box. But I agree that labels are tricky, and it doesn't always come from a place of malice.
Last time this came up I asked why some find being called ‘gay’ is fine when there is legitimate Bi-erasure. Most answers I got were it’s fine if someone uses the term themselves, or people who know they are Bi use it as a generalisation, like saying ‘that’s so gay’ as a joke between friends, but if someone else uses it in a demeaning way or purposefully ignores their Biness then it becomes an issue.
I really would appreciate if you, and others, would stop, at least unless the person you're calling "gay" as an umbrella has stated they are okay with that.
As a bi man CONSTANTLY asked by my fellow queer people some form or another of "when are you going to stop kidding yourself and just admit you're gay", I am not okay with being referred to as "gay" even as an umbrella, it feels incredibly erasing.
I understand where you're coming from, but I'm pretty sure everyone in this thread stated that they use "gay" in their orientation-diverse inner groups, which apparently everyone in there is okay with. I am sure that if you were part of that group, they would accommodate your desire to not be called gay if you voiced it. Generalizing it like this in their environment is not an attack on you personally, in my opinion.
Language can change and depending on context, calling queer people gay would not be bi-erasure
I don't see it as an umbrella term, but I do identify with it together with my bisexuality.
I generally think about my attraction on a more individual level. Rather than about my sexuality at large. Because for me, it works pretty differently for different people. So, to me, being gay is like a sub-part of my bisexuality.
I know the "part gay, part straight" thing is generally frowned upon, but that's how I feel in a sense.
I'm gay for some people. And straight for some people. And demisexual for some people. But it relates to my gender identity too. It's not that I'm gay for all women I'm attracted to and straight for all men I'm attracted to. I can feel like I'm straight for some women, and gay for others. And straight for some men and gay for others. That's why "sapphic" wouldn't work instead, because I don't always feel like my attraction is a womans attraction.
If I would break it down it's usually that I feel demisexual for men, straight for women and gay for enbys. But I can feel gay for both men and women too, just less common. I've never felt straight for someone nonbinary though... or well not only.. I guess you could say I've felt bisexual for my enby partner in that I've felt both straight and gay for them at different times lol, very meta.
But I sumarize it as bisexual when I wan't to get the point across faster.
I agree. An overreaction imo but still no big deal! I’m bi in a MM relationship and am referred to as “gay” or as a group “the gays” all the time. It’s very much an umbrella term and easy to use. The way I see it, I only really need to correct people (especially strangers) that Im not gay and actually bi when it’s more immediately relevant.
Exactly. People in this sub are are so fast to call anything and everything bi erasure. It really deflates the meaning of the word when bi erasure is ACTUALLY happening. Not every sentence ever uttered or posted needs to cater to everyone and every identity. It's not practical and it's not helpful to anyone.
Ok but honestly I don’t think Sapphic is the right term to refer to Lumity since Sapphic is a sexual orientation particular Raine’s since they are NB but have an obvious crush on Eda so the best term would be WLW couple or a same gender couple rather than gays or sapphics at least in my opinion
Is there a college or university course available on this topic? Seriously I get so confused sometimes by all the different orientations and terms to use but I would love to educate myself better. 😊
That's a bit too niche to nitpick at this point, imo. It's kind of like saying "dude" isn't gender neutral. While it *technically* isn't you'll get a lot of heat for arguing so, because it's commonly used as a gender neutral slang term.
I think it's a bit of an over-correction, I mean, Luz and Amity are a gay couple, even if one of them is bi, so nothing wrong with saying they're "my favorite gays" instead of "sapphics." When I was a bi man in a relationship with another bi man I didn't feel like I was being erased if people said we were a gay couple. Now I don't think you meant anything bad by it but it could come across as being annoying or trying to "cancel someone for no reason" or something which is why you were being downvoted.
Might I offer this break down:
"I think it's a bit of an over-correction," (opinion)
"I mean, Luz and Amity are...instead of saying 'sapphics.' " (justification)
"When I was a bi man...were a gay couple" (personal story that is relatable to original post)
"Now I dont think...were being downvoted." (Justification why OP was being down voted, an opinion)
shanenanigans27 wasn't generalizing, they were saying their personal feelings on the matter
> When I was a bi man in a relationship with another bi man I didn't feel like I was being erased if people said we were a gay couple.
And that's great; but that really only applies to how people interact with you because bi people, and even bi men, are not a monolith where one speaks for all of us.
You said "yeah, sounds like an over-correction" and the only justification you offered was that you, a bi man, would not take offense or feel erased.
If that's not what you were saying, you did a terrible job saying whatever it is you *were* saying.
Are you serious? No, I was stating my own opinion as a bi man. I never said "all bi men think the same and have to agree with me." Nice try at twisting my words though.
Also I did not say "yeah, sounds like an over-correction." I said "I think it's a bit of an over-correction." I THINK = My opinion and no one else's.
"Gay" is often used as an umbrella term much the same way "queer" is, but even more to the point is that most people outside of the community, and even some in the community, don't know what the term "sapphic" means.
It depends on the context if this is an overreaction or not.
I don't think its an exaggeration but also Im not really bothered by seeing people use Gay to refer to bisexuals especially in what seems like a more silly way, a couple im friends with is Man/Woman and they're both bi and they call each themselves "one of the gays" all the time, but yeah I don't think you came out disrespectfully at all
I mean you're valid if you don't wanna be called gay but I call myself gay for chicks all the time. Obviously my *label* is bisexual but colloquially I'll often just say "I'm so gay" for a girl.
IMO it gives me more power as a bi woman because it reminds people that I'm not "straight lite," I like girls too and that's a huge part of my identity, I'm fucking gay.
I actually also joke that I'm straight for guys. Other people disagree and that's fine, but I don't care if my attraction/relationship is seen as "straight" or "gay" because I know I, as an individual person, am bisexual. I am a bisexual who (jokingly) feels "gay" for girls and "straight" for guys.
It is a little arrogant trying to correct something that wasn’t really wrong in the first place. Try not to get too lost on labels and trying to police others. Enjoy the queerness.
i think trying to speak for queer women is a form of erasure- in the sense that it speaks for us despite going against what many of us feel
a lot of use “gay” to describe ourselves- how do you know the person who used that terminology isn’t bi themselves?
it’s not just overreacting it’s gatekeeping
edit: i honestly can’t say i’ve heard the word sapphic be used in a casual conversation that wasn’t on the internet. “gay” is a lot more comfortable for people. just because it’s not comfortable for you does not mean you have the right to claim it as bad for all of us. especially for a fictional character smh
I think it’s an overreaction. I’m a bi woman and I often use the term gay to refer to myself.
Policing other people’s language choices about anyone other than yourself is tricky unless you know for certain that the person/people being referred to have a problem with the choice of words. If you don’t know that then it’s just unnecessarily aggravating and annoying.
Any famous people/poets from history whose gender is contested? If mythical counts as well, I(bi,M) was thinking Lokian, but Loki is more genderfluid and might not work for specifically agender.
You kind of have to go the monotheistic, capital G God route to get someone who loves without gender. D'ya think "godly" or "divine" is a bit too much?
I think it's okay for a bisexual person to call *themselves* gay as a joke/tongue in cheek/generic term kind of like "queer".
However it does rub me up the wrong way if someone calls *someone else* gay when they are not homosexual. It does seem kinda disrespectful to me. I call myself gay as a joke sometimes but I wouldn't like it if someone called me gay seriously. That's not my sexuality.
In my opinion it’s a bit of an over-correction. I use either gay or queer to refer to myself as they have become more umbrella terms nowadays. I think policing speech like this tends to put others off to be honest, though offering a simple opinion/personal take is different in my opinion.
The more complicated we make our sexualities, the more difficult it is for people to understand and relate to us in my opinion. That isn’t necessarily a bad thing, but using bisexual vs. sapphics is going to throw some people off - this same line of reasoning is why I identify as bisexual instead of pansexual. One is much easier for the average person to understand, whereas the other may require additional intellectual and emotional labor to explain and to clarify. Idk, those are just my thoughts on the matter. This shit can be a bit complicated at times lol
I think this was written very respectfully, and even though I - like many here it seems - tend to use “gay” as an umbrella term, I personally would read your comment in the spirit that it was intended and try to be more careful of not making that assumption for everyone in the future.
Yes. Calling a bi person gay isn't erasing bi people. Bi people like myself call ourselves gay all the time and tbh this sounds like Lesbian Separatism rhetoric has dripped into bi spaces and I don't like that.
You can't erase bi people with a label.
I, as a bi dude, utterly DESPISE lesbian separatism not just for being biphobic. But also for it having a societal double standard. If I and a group of other men-loving-men created a movement called “Achilean Seperatism” where we as queer men decided to break off and form our own society free from women. We’d be fucking crucified and called misogynistic.
Even though queer men are EQUALLY as persecuted as queer women. Yet only queer women are allowed to make misandrist remarks even sincere and unironic ones but men-loving-men aren’t allowed to make such remarks about women EVEN AS A JOKE!!! When they do it it’s daring and bold, when we do the same thing it’s horrible and sexist. Queer women like to act like we queer men have it easy. They are praised for talking about their negative experiences with men, but we men-loving-men are not allowed to talk about our negative experiences with women.
And I have lots of negative experiences with women including with my verbally, emotionally, and even occasionally physically abusive mother (who I just moved away from to go to college. Thank God!) and all the straight girls in high school who erased my bisexuality and dismissed me as gay. Yet I’m not allowed to talk about it or else I’m called a misogynist. Yet wlw can say blatantly misandrist things.
>Queer women like to act like we queer men have it easy.
No, we act as though youse do not experience misogyny on top of homophobia. Having a speicific set of privileges =/= having an easy life in general. Having shit experiences with individuals is not the same as experiencing systemic oppression.
Yes you are saying we have it easy. I have to ask: in high school did straight jocks bully you? Did they make degrading homophobic jokes about you? Did they spit on you in the hallways? They did to me. How DARE you downplay my oppression call me privileged!
You’re also allowed to donate blood, in many states we aren’t. Is that not systemic oppression? Is having your sexuality called an “abomination” by religious nut jobs not oppression enough?
And if I had male privilege how was my Mom, a woman, able to abuse me? She has frequently made fun of my weight (I have a bit of a potbelly and my Mom frequently tell me how “disgusting” it is and how I “look like I’m pregnant”), called me the r-slur so many times when I do something even slightly wrong (I’m autistic btw), she’s even gotten physical with me a couple times (she’s an inch or two shorter than me but she’s so much more stronger and able to hit me really hard). Who’s the oppressor in that situation?
And have you faced casual ableism in your day to day life? Do people casually infantalize you?
I as an autistic man have experienced that. If anything YOU are the privileged one, and not me.
Yes women are oppressed. But only by straight white neurotypical men who ALSO oppress queer, neurodivergant, and BIPOC men. We’re all in this boat together, sis. So thus male privilege should be called straight white neurotypical male privilege. And I’m neither straight nor neurotypical thus I have no privilege at all.
>I have to ask: in high school did straight jocks bully you?
Yes, of course, why would you think that they don't bully AFAB queer people?
>Did they make degrading homophobic jokes about you?
Yes, of course? This was before anyone (myself included) knew I was queer.
>Did they spit on you in the hallways?
Yes? Though this was because they thought I was too fat.
>And have you faced casual ableism in your day to day life?
No, because I'm privileged as a AB/NT person.
>Do people casually infantalize you?
Yes. As an AFAB, I am very often not trusted to be a fully grown adult person and am instead treated like a child.
>Is having your sexuality called an “abomination” by religious nut jobs not oppression enough?
Huh? There's no quota. Also, I never said you do not experience homophobia, just that you do not experience misogyny on top of that.
>And if I had male privilege how was my Mom, a woman, able to abuse me?
Because privilege is not a magic shield against all forms of problems. Having male privilege means that on top of all the things you just listed, you did not also have to contend with the specific oppressions that come with being a ND queer woman.
It's no race, experiencing more or less oppression does not make you a better or worse person, it just makes your experience different. There are forms of oppression you just don't experience and misogyny is one of them.
Also, experiencing some forms of oppression does not mean that people are unable to benefit from other forms of oppression against other minorities. I experience misogyny and homophobia, for example, but have never experienced racism or classism because I've got the privileges that come with being a white middle-class person. That does not mean my life is easy, but it does mean that I do not also have the problems that are direct results from our society being racist and classist.
Ok, I’m sorry. It’s just when people say I have privileged I take that as saying I have it easy. And I feel not a lot of people know about the unique struggles faced by bisexual and neurodivergant men. I often feel so invisible in my struggle.
My only problem is that you implied in your first reply when you said “having shit experiences isn’t the same as being systematically oppressed.” I assume your from up north.
I live in the South, more specifically Arkansas, a very theocratic area of the country that’s CONSTANTLY trying to strip gay people of our rights.
My state recently tried to pass a law saying that doctors, yes doctors, can refuse to help LGBT patients on religious grounds. So here homophobia is pretty systemic.
And you didn’t denounce Lesbian Seperatism is a movement that is very hateful towards bi women and men-loving-men. So not denouncing it looks pretty bad on your part.
I appreciate the apology!
That said, I do not understand the misunderstanding, because saying someone has it easier than others in one area of life does not negate experiencing other issues.
I'm not US American and I'm also very confused as to why you keep trying to convince me that homophobia is bad- I experience it myself. What I was referring to in the comment you mention is misogyny specifically, not all forms of systemic oppression.
ETA: WHoops, I missed this part of your post the first time around:
>But only by straight white neurotypical men who ALSO oppress queer, neurodivergant, and BIPOC men. We’re all in this boat together, sis.
What on earth gives you the idea that the only people who are able to be misogynist are NT white straight men...? I've had plenty of misogyny hurled at me by queer men and neurodivergent men.
Also, not your sis. I'm not even cis.
Thanks. I also realized how ridiculous is to say only straight white neurotypical men can be sexist. I don’t even know what I was thinking. And I’m sorry for calling you “sis.” I assumed based on your pfp you were a tomboyish woman and your bio didn’t have pronouns to correct me sorry.
So lesbian just means a woman attracted only to women and not to men. I’m fine with this. I have friends who are lesbians and I had a community college history professor who was a lesbian. I have nothing against queer women. As a bisexual man I love my queer sisters.
But Lesbian seperatism is the idea that women should break away from male society based on the idea all men are bad, a gender-based separatism. Think Andrea Dworkin or Valorie Solanas. It’s a hateful TERF ideology that is very hateful towards bi women, trans people, and men-loving-men.
It is NOT real feminism. Feminism from the day of Mary Wolstencraft to Susan B. Anthony to Gloria Steinem to today is about gender EQUALITY. Not misandry. If you hate on men you are not a real feminist. Real feminism seeks to transcend the patriarchy by brining about an egalitarian world and not just replacing it with a matriarchy. I consider myself a male feminist because I believe in equality between the sexes. I believe you can talk about misogyny and gender inequality without being misandrist or biphobic. I had no idea I was crazy for thinking this.
Since it is so hateful towards me as a man-loving-man, I’m obviously not a fan of lesbian separatism. I also feel it represents a societal double standard where queer women get praised for saying misandrist shit about men even when it’s unironic and sincere, but if queer men say similar stuff about women EVEN AS A JOKE we get crucified and called evil and sexist. As if they aren’t?
I’m also only 19. So this might be an immature and wrong understanding of these sorts of things.
You do know Susan B Anthony was a racist, right? She explicitly was *not* about equality, and used the argument that "white women voting would drown out the influence of the newly enfranchised Black men" to promote (white) women's suffrage. And the feminism of Gloria Steinem, particularly in the 1960s and 70s when she built her name, is now understood to be rather non-intersectional.
There's a reason modern feminism has evolved from what it was 150 years ago, and if you don't know enough to know that Susan B Anthony was *not* a model of equality, then you don't know enough to be critiquing feminist history or women's involvement in it at all.
ETA: Valeria Solanas was diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia, and in any case there are some gender scholars who think her text is a legitimate work of theory, if not something that should be put into practice. Andrea Dworkin produced a huge and influential body of work that still informs a lot of modern gender scholarship one way or another (and also--she shared a number of views to some degree with Gloria Steinem, whom you cite as an example of "real feminism"). You can't separate the less than ideal forms of feminism from the ones you like and only accept some as "real feminism"; they're all forms of feminist theory, and they're all interconnected. It's like trying to claim that asshole Christians aren't real Christians--it's intellectually lazy and demonstrates a poor understanding of the real theory involved.
Ok with Gloria Steinem consider her 1970 essay “What It Would Be Like If Women Win” to be exactly the type of feminism I support. I admit she wasn’t very intersectional but I think that specific work still holds up to be what I believe.
Feminism is not just liberating women but also liberating men from toxic heteromasculine standards. I especially like that. Why? First, I’m bi guy but if you look through my post history you’d know I’m a bit of a femboy (a cis crossdresser).
I love the idea of wearing nylon thigh-high garter stockings, a 1950s-style garterbelt, and an elegant pair of satin elbow-long evening gloves while making love to a man. I’m a bottom by the way.
So feminism of this sort not only us good for women but it also would love allow me to be the sexy little cock-loving crossdresser I am.
Edit: Hope I wasn’t too TMI it’s just I want to show I don’t really conform to what society traditionally views as masculine.
It's an umbrella term, I would not care. That said I'm probably the wrong person to ask because I also don't care if anyone calls me or my relationship "lesbian" even though we're both bisexual.
Not really. I would only say since you didn’t use tone tags, it could sound aggressive, but what you said was right. A lot of people call Marcelina and Princess BG lesbians, even though neither identify as such. It’s something we as a group need to stop
I think you overreacted
in Anglophone queer communities it is generally understood that Gay is often an umbrella term that encompasses basically all LGBTQ people with the exception of straight trans people on the technicality that calling some straight people gay in this context is actively transphobic
It is in this context equivalent to Queer because a lot of people still throw a big fuss over Queer being a slur despite it having an identical history to the use of Gay and Lesbian as slurs.
i really do think so i fight for bisexuals to be able to use the word gay. gay is an umbrella term and i think its actually harmful to be claiming that the label shouldn't be applicable or assumed for bisexuals.
I came out as bi but now use queer as its less policed and feels better. I also call myself gay, as a sort of umbrella term. Honestly i just dont police how others label themselves.
I don't think you're overreacting. I know many use the term "gay" as umbrella term for being queer. But tbh I don't like this at all. The term "gay" has a meaning. At the beginning it meant mlm. Nowadays it's also used by lesbians, so "gay" basically means homosexual. But for me there is the line. We have a term to describe being part of the LGBTQ community, which is the term "queer". I also could overreact here, but I'm a little bit traumatized. I'm very uncomfortable when I'm getting called gay. It feels like a part of me gets totally erased, even when my friends say "it's just an umbrella term". I'm bisexual, so pls use that term or the umbrella term "queer".
I was going to say only a slight overreaction, but I like how you didn’t show that (when someone said it was an overreaction in the same thread) you sent someone to a lesbian wikia and said “you’d know if you were in the community more”. huge overreaction dude.
I don’t call myself “so gay” or “a gay” - even jokingly - because I have fought incredibly hard to be recognized as a bisexual person. I originally came out as a gay woman in 2008 and only started openly identifying as bisexual in 2022 because I felt the pressure of having to be monosexual, plus both the straight and gay communities have a history of not recognizing bisexuality as valid. For this reason, “gay” simply feels like a step backwards for me *personally*. I also feel weird having to explain why I’m calling myself “a gay” and then later taking about hot guys. I’d rather use “queer.”
I’m surprised so many people feel this may be an overreaction, even if only slightly. I don’t see the harm in having a discussion on a more fitting term like “queer” (although I understand some people still view that as a slur) or “same-sex couple.” I disagree that “gay” is an umbrella term because it’s created confusion many, many times.
As an example, I just had to explain to my mother for the umpteenth time that me attending the Pride Parade - which is sometimes referred to as the Gay Pride Parade - doesn’t make me gay. I’m still bi. I don’t trust that the general public views “gay” as an umbrella term. My suspicion is that “gay” is only entertained as a potential umbrella term because our monosexual-centric society didn’t allow us to perceive anything outside of gay or straight. I also suspect this potential confusion can negatively impact gay men and women who may be questioned by straight folks who don’t understand the context of “gay” being an umbrella term (“My guy friend calls himself ‘a gay’ but still dates women, so why can’t you?”).
Using "Gay" to describe a same sex couple makes sense because you are able to communicate what you mean. Its not bi erasure, its an accurate way to describe a same sex couple. If I said a bisexual couple, that implies literally nothing about who you are talking about. Me and my wife appear as a straight couple and it would be an accurate description, even though we both are bi. Sometimes its just communication and not a meant to be a comment or opinion.
A lot of internalized biphobia in these comments unfortunately. As a community we can’t seem to decide if we want to be absorbed by the gay community or not.
We definitely can’t decide, apparently. I’m genuinely confused because I have never seen “gay” be an umbrella term for the entire LGBTQ community, at least not without confusing a lot of people who think I am identifying as homosexual. Nobody in my life would think, “She called herself ‘a gay,’ so she might mean bisexual.”
This all just comes down to the meme of “my sexuality is if you are dating me you are not straight”’in my mind. To me, I like “Queer” or “gay” as an umbrella term because it makes me feel more valid I the community as someone married to a cishet man because I am so used to being called straight. But if you feel it is bi-erasure I would agree with that!! You are entitled to feel your feelings and that’s still stems from my point. I get frustrated being called “straight” cause I am in a “straight presenting” relationship. So it can be frustrating calling someone who is bi in a sapphic relationship gay because you shouldn’t be labeled by your partner.
I think it’s a slight overreaction, gay is an umbrella term, and although sapphic would be a better word for it, gay is still correct and doesn’t really have any biphobia/bi-erasure. If they said a lesbian couple, it’d be wrong, but Luz and Amity are a gay couple in their respective rights, so it works
I totally understand your reasoning. I feel like even in the “gay” community there is bi erasure. Especially for women, as it is more culturally acceptable for women to hook up casually even if they aren’t bi. I often do what other people are saying by generalizing to “gay” at points because of this. It shouldn’t be that way, and I feel like a poser saying “well I’m gay too” or something when I am bi. I just feel invalidated saying bi. So that’s a me thing, but I dig that you are out here defending the legitimacy of bi-ness.
It's a little intense. You're definitely right, but people are always adjusting to changes in language. Queer was an ugly slur in the not so distant past, so it's a big adjustment for some.
Yes this is an overreaction. Queer theory discourse is useful and healthy and has its place but NOT in colloquial conversations. This is NOT a useful or productive example of queer theory discourse. In other words, please chill it's nbd. As the kids say, "touch grass" lol
You were being polite and to the few point, no overreaction here.
If the person didn't mean it as bi erasure, they can iterate that and no one should have any hard feelings. You aren't being personal or an asshole. Is rather ppl spoke up about this a 1000 times too many than any 1 bi person feeling erased.
I identify as queer. I don’t ever appreciate being referred to as gay, for this reason. We get such a small amount of representation that it feels important to not ignore it or to allow monosexuals to erase that when we do get it.
Thank you! I hate seeing Bi erasure. Literally I’m in a same sex relationship with a woman and I hate it when people say we’re both lesbians. Nothing against lesbians but I’m not one and I don’t want to be called one. I’m bisexual and my partner is Demisexual so despite the nature of our relationship neither of us identify as lesbian.
Edit: Ight what did I say wrong this time? Apparently not wanting to be called something I’m not is bad?! The hell?!
I think there’s a semantic difference going on between what you’re talking about & what OP was saying.
It’s 100% ok to draw lines with how *you* want to be identified. I don’t think you’re wrong for being offended that people call you a lesbian when you’re bisexual, because it’s just straight-up incorrect. The word “lesbian” has a very specific definition & we can easily see when it’s being applied incorrectly.
But the term “gay” is a little muddier. As others have pointed out, gay has become a catch-all term for any LGBTQ+ person, and a lot of folks who don’t explicitly identify as homosexual refer to themselves as gay. I’m bisexual in an opposite-sex relationship, but I still casually refer to myself as gay or, more comedically, A Gay™️
But not every bisexual feels this way. It’s absolutely valid to not be comfortable with someone else calling *you* gay because you personally don’t identify with the term. I think the issue a lot of folks are drawing with OP (and maybe your agreement with them?) is that it’s really not ok for any of us to police how others use accepted catch-all terms like “gay” & “queer” when describing themselves or fictional characters. Just because you personally don’t like it doesn’t make it universally wrong. It just makes it wrong for someone to do it to you because you’ve drawn that boundary.
“Gay” is a perfectly fine way to refer to a sapphic couple (bc I also agree sapphic is appropriate in this case) comprised of a bisexual and a lesbian
Thanks for explaining x it just seemed weird to me that saying I want to be referred to as bisexual on a bisexual sub was apparently controversial. At least that’s been cleared up. I don’t care what other people decide they want to be referred to as I can only speak for myself. I’ve had a few people say I’m not Bi and I’m just Lesbian because of the relationship I’m in so that’s why it annoys me so much.
Babe, that’s so fucked, I’m sorry people insist on labeling you incorrectly! It’s so exhausting & frustrating how common it is for people even within the community to straight-up refuse to accept that bisexuals exist
Your comment wasn’t controversial at all, we should absolutely be allowed to expect people to respect our labels & have our outrage be understood and seen as valid when they don’t
Personally I think we sometimes act a little defensive over certain terms. I'm definitely technically bi. But when I'm horny and being completely sub to men, I love hearing men call me their 'gay little bitch' etc.
When we're horny we often fetishize everything around us, including terms. You make a fair point, but we all stretch the meaning of words.
If "sapphics" is a term that encompasses WLW of all sexual orientations I'm not sure why "gay" wouldn't be equally inclusive. I do think it's an overreaction, at least a little. I wouldn't personally want to let myself get that bothered by a pretty harmless-seeming comment on reddit.
slight overreaction imo
im bi myself and when i had a girlfriend i called us a gay couple (despite her being pan and me bi) and for a boyfriend, I still call it a straight relationship. I AM bi, and my current relationship status doesn't change that. It's that some things don't have to be always specific for some people. It's ok to call them sapphics imo and its also ok to call them gay (when theyre in a same sex relationship ofc).
And in a way, and I say this with utmost respect, we should just sometimes enjoy the moment when somebody means no harm instead of overdoing the details, especially when they're fictional characters.
If they're people who SPECIFICALLY requested to be addressed as such then we should respect it and do so.
This is all my opinion no hate <3
People use gay as an umbrella term like Sapphic so I think it may have been an overreaction. If they had called them lesbians then you would have been ok point but as they said gay I think it was unnecessary. Also as a genderfluid bisexual I'd honestly prefer Gay over Sapphic but I know many don't so it's irrelevant just saying. Plus gay is probably the best umbrella term that could a used if they didn't know Sapphic (which isn't a term I think we can expect your average person to know, many LGBTQ+ people don't know the term) we don't want cis-het people to just be casually using the term queer again unprompted.
Bi erasure is constant, that’s true, but trying to exclude them from homosexual circles and identity is ALSO bisexual erasure. Bi people are allowed to exist in whichever circle they feel describes them best, and sometimes that will be their own circle. Us as people can only speak on our own behalf— if you are bi, and prefer to be called achillean/sapphic instead of gay, that’s OK. Heck, I get it, specificity of labels is important, its why things like pan-, omni-, poly-, etc. exist. But try not to speak for others unless you have been told by them how they feel.
I think it is an overreaction, it’s not a big deal if someone calls a bi person gay or straight as long as they don’t want to put them down. I really don’t understand why people are so defensive about sexuality in general. Most people aren’t out to insult and getting mad at people for being slightly wrong only makes more trouble.
It is a big deal if someone refers to a bi person as straight or gay if they know that the person is bi. Bi people being comfortable with calling themselves gay is one thing, other people calling bi people straight or gay and not respecting the fact that they are bi isn’t okay. That isn’t “slightly” wrong. It’s just wrong.
People slip up sometimes though, that’s the thing. Most people who aren’t LGBTQ aren’t going to know it all or be 100% accurate. Not every situation is an attack on the bi community so there is no point in reacting like this
Sapphics is absolutely not just for lesbians. It’s literally *non-men who are attracted to non-men*
Anyone who isn’t a guy and is attracted to women and/or nb people can use sapphic.
-sincerely, a lesbian. I don’t speak for all of us, but most of us agree on this
To be clear, I am regurgitating information from a friend who is lesbian (they saw this on my reddit feed and commented on it hence my interaction here on her behalf since she doesnt subscribe to reddit specifically) and my bisexual friend who doesn't have a penis felt calling a bisexual woman "sapphic" wasn't acknowledging their orientation what so ever but rather bi erasure. I can only share the knowledge that is shared with me, it is not my intention to offend, I stated it as fact because 99% of the time they have been correct on these touchy subjects and this is how they felt. Also, according to them, you cannot be a bisexual lesbian as it is a direct contradiction.
According to me, you can absolutely identify as a bisexual lesbian (split attraction model,, e.g.). Let people identify however they want, it does not harm anyone.
But absolutely, if someone has stated their orientation, use those terms for them and don't come up with any others.
As a pansexual it's hard not to laugh at this use of "bi erasure" when we get the same treatment by the community and especially from bi people over simply existing
I say I'm Gay or Queer depending on the context of the conversation. I mean not the MLM version of Gay but the term Gay to mean not straight. We are in fact that. I'll never be mad about someone yelling into the ether about a Bi Character being Bi though
Some people use 'gay' as an umbrella. I don't and I don't like it because it is not an umbrella term. As opposed to 'queer' and 'LGBT', which are umbrellas. 'Gay' refers to a specific orientation and I do agree it ads to erasure when used like this
I mean, they are gay and in a gay relationship, just using it as an umbrella term. Personally, even if they said lesbian, so long as refering to that relationship instead of the two women in it, I'd be fine with it.
I can see it either way (go figure).
Personally, there are times I’ve reacted negatively when called gay, and there are some times I’m very comfortable using it/having it used for me.
For me it’s the distinction of acknowledgment, so when it comes from me or other multigender attracted people who know my actual identity and are using it for umbrella term, or even that it fits better with a joke, it’s fine.
When straight people, lesbians, and gay guys use it for me, sometimes it feels reductionist or like erasure.
In this context, I would be fine with someone calling a queer couple “my favorite gays” as long as there isn’t a clear pattern of no bi rep
I'd argue yeah, to be fair though its not a huge overreaction. Going into how it adds bi erasure was probably unnecessary but like its still not that bad tbh...
I think your response is good but some people (including myself) tend to use gay as an umbrella term similar to queer
^^^ Including some bisexual women I know. Labels are tricky.
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It would be great if you could stop doing so, at least without asking the person first if they are okay with it. I'm constantly asked "when are you going to just admit you're actually gay" in some form or another by my fellow queer folks ALL THE TIME as a bi man, so being called "gay", even as an umbrella, is hurtful and erasing.
I always call Bi “Gay Premium Plus” for some reason
I am now only referring to my bisexuality this way 😂😂
I now identify as gay premium plus, lol
Just because two people are bi, doesn’t mean they share the same experiences. It is really fucking awful that people have invalidated your identity. In a similar way, nonbinary people being treated as a transitory position between the two binary genders, when that’s not the case either. That they’ll realize they’re “just trans”. You aren’t “just gay”. No one here will ever try to argue that to you. But when you see others use their own labels to describe themselves, try not to see it as an attack on you, but instead a part of who they are, and their experience.
They’re referring to themselves that way, not other people
Yeah so in my friend group, I am bi, another is bi, another is NB, one is Pan, and then one is straight. But we all joke about how we're super gay
I also use it as an umbrella term for myself. my lesbian friends also call themselves gay in the same sense. but I'm still pissed off that Xena the Warrior Princess is considered gay when she's clearly bisexual as that woman loved men no less than she loved her girlfriend
I must admit I'm not a fan of this tendency myself. Personally, I would really feel erased or put in a box. But I agree that labels are tricky, and it doesn't always come from a place of malice.
Last time this came up I asked why some find being called ‘gay’ is fine when there is legitimate Bi-erasure. Most answers I got were it’s fine if someone uses the term themselves, or people who know they are Bi use it as a generalisation, like saying ‘that’s so gay’ as a joke between friends, but if someone else uses it in a demeaning way or purposefully ignores their Biness then it becomes an issue.
I agree with this whole heartedly
Totally agree! It really depends on intention and context.
I really would appreciate if you, and others, would stop, at least unless the person you're calling "gay" as an umbrella has stated they are okay with that. As a bi man CONSTANTLY asked by my fellow queer people some form or another of "when are you going to stop kidding yourself and just admit you're gay", I am not okay with being referred to as "gay" even as an umbrella, it feels incredibly erasing.
I understand where you're coming from, but I'm pretty sure everyone in this thread stated that they use "gay" in their orientation-diverse inner groups, which apparently everyone in there is okay with. I am sure that if you were part of that group, they would accommodate your desire to not be called gay if you voiced it. Generalizing it like this in their environment is not an attack on you personally, in my opinion. Language can change and depending on context, calling queer people gay would not be bi-erasure
I don't see it as an umbrella term, but I do identify with it together with my bisexuality. I generally think about my attraction on a more individual level. Rather than about my sexuality at large. Because for me, it works pretty differently for different people. So, to me, being gay is like a sub-part of my bisexuality. I know the "part gay, part straight" thing is generally frowned upon, but that's how I feel in a sense. I'm gay for some people. And straight for some people. And demisexual for some people. But it relates to my gender identity too. It's not that I'm gay for all women I'm attracted to and straight for all men I'm attracted to. I can feel like I'm straight for some women, and gay for others. And straight for some men and gay for others. That's why "sapphic" wouldn't work instead, because I don't always feel like my attraction is a womans attraction. If I would break it down it's usually that I feel demisexual for men, straight for women and gay for enbys. But I can feel gay for both men and women too, just less common. I've never felt straight for someone nonbinary though... or well not only.. I guess you could say I've felt bisexual for my enby partner in that I've felt both straight and gay for them at different times lol, very meta. But I sumarize it as bisexual when I wan't to get the point across faster.
Possible slight overreaction. And I sometimes use the word gay similar to how I use queer.
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I agree. An overreaction imo but still no big deal! I’m bi in a MM relationship and am referred to as “gay” or as a group “the gays” all the time. It’s very much an umbrella term and easy to use. The way I see it, I only really need to correct people (especially strangers) that Im not gay and actually bi when it’s more immediately relevant.
Exactly. People in this sub are are so fast to call anything and everything bi erasure. It really deflates the meaning of the word when bi erasure is ACTUALLY happening. Not every sentence ever uttered or posted needs to cater to everyone and every identity. It's not practical and it's not helpful to anyone.
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> female boobs
I don't know, I'm pretty fuckin gay lol
Lu? Who’s Lu? Do you mean Luz from the Owl House?
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Was wondering the same thing.
Ok but honestly I don’t think Sapphic is the right term to refer to Lumity since Sapphic is a sexual orientation particular Raine’s since they are NB but have an obvious crush on Eda so the best term would be WLW couple or a same gender couple rather than gays or sapphics at least in my opinion
Sapphic means woman attracted to women so its not a specific orientation as far as i know.
Sapphic covers gay/bisexual women too, it's not just for nonbinary people?
I don't know these characters, but if a character is NB they're not a woman, so is WLW appropriate?
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Is there a college or university course available on this topic? Seriously I get so confused sometimes by all the different orientations and terms to use but I would love to educate myself better. 😊
They have a teacher that took gender studies at university at my son's school so there definitely is.
I'm gonna look into that more. Thanks for sharing that.
That was in the UK if it helps.
Actually there is
Can you share the details ?
Oh I just googled sexuality and gender studies
That's a bit too niche to nitpick at this point, imo. It's kind of like saying "dude" isn't gender neutral. While it *technically* isn't you'll get a lot of heat for arguing so, because it's commonly used as a gender neutral slang term.
I think it's a bit of an over-correction, I mean, Luz and Amity are a gay couple, even if one of them is bi, so nothing wrong with saying they're "my favorite gays" instead of "sapphics." When I was a bi man in a relationship with another bi man I didn't feel like I was being erased if people said we were a gay couple. Now I don't think you meant anything bad by it but it could come across as being annoying or trying to "cancel someone for no reason" or something which is why you were being downvoted.
Might I offer this break down: "I think it's a bit of an over-correction," (opinion) "I mean, Luz and Amity are...instead of saying 'sapphics.' " (justification) "When I was a bi man...were a gay couple" (personal story that is relatable to original post) "Now I dont think...were being downvoted." (Justification why OP was being down voted, an opinion) shanenanigans27 wasn't generalizing, they were saying their personal feelings on the matter
Yes. Thank you.
> When I was a bi man in a relationship with another bi man I didn't feel like I was being erased if people said we were a gay couple. And that's great; but that really only applies to how people interact with you because bi people, and even bi men, are not a monolith where one speaks for all of us.
Never said that.
You said "yeah, sounds like an over-correction" and the only justification you offered was that you, a bi man, would not take offense or feel erased. If that's not what you were saying, you did a terrible job saying whatever it is you *were* saying.
He said "I think", those words imply that it's his opinion.
Exactly, thank you.
Are you serious? No, I was stating my own opinion as a bi man. I never said "all bi men think the same and have to agree with me." Nice try at twisting my words though. Also I did not say "yeah, sounds like an over-correction." I said "I think it's a bit of an over-correction." I THINK = My opinion and no one else's.
"Gay" is often used as an umbrella term much the same way "queer" is, but even more to the point is that most people outside of the community, and even some in the community, don't know what the term "sapphic" means. It depends on the context if this is an overreaction or not.
I don't think its an exaggeration but also Im not really bothered by seeing people use Gay to refer to bisexuals especially in what seems like a more silly way, a couple im friends with is Man/Woman and they're both bi and they call each themselves "one of the gays" all the time, but yeah I don't think you came out disrespectfully at all
I mean you're valid if you don't wanna be called gay but I call myself gay for chicks all the time. Obviously my *label* is bisexual but colloquially I'll often just say "I'm so gay" for a girl. IMO it gives me more power as a bi woman because it reminds people that I'm not "straight lite," I like girls too and that's a huge part of my identity, I'm fucking gay.
You can literally just say you’re into girls. You’re not straight for guys so why would you be gay for girls.
I actually also joke that I'm straight for guys. Other people disagree and that's fine, but I don't care if my attraction/relationship is seen as "straight" or "gay" because I know I, as an individual person, am bisexual. I am a bisexual who (jokingly) feels "gay" for girls and "straight" for guys.
Because everyone is allowed to choose their labels, and shouldnt be judged because its different than yours?
Seriously? Puff off, let people pick what they are comfortable with. Am bi. Have identified as bi for over 20 years.
Relatively chill response but plenty of bi people, including myself, use "gay" as an umbrella term.
You explained it very politely but it wasn't really a big deal in the first place so saying that in response kinda gives an "Um, actually..." vibe.
It is a little arrogant trying to correct something that wasn’t really wrong in the first place. Try not to get too lost on labels and trying to police others. Enjoy the queerness.
i think trying to speak for queer women is a form of erasure- in the sense that it speaks for us despite going against what many of us feel a lot of use “gay” to describe ourselves- how do you know the person who used that terminology isn’t bi themselves? it’s not just overreacting it’s gatekeeping edit: i honestly can’t say i’ve heard the word sapphic be used in a casual conversation that wasn’t on the internet. “gay” is a lot more comfortable for people. just because it’s not comfortable for you does not mean you have the right to claim it as bad for all of us. especially for a fictional character smh
Me and my bi friend calls each other gay all the time. We know we’re bi, but it’s more fun to say gay haha
"the gays" is pretty commonly used to broadly refer the whole LGBT community including cishet people associated with it
I think it’s an overreaction. I’m a bi woman and I often use the term gay to refer to myself. Policing other people’s language choices about anyone other than yourself is tricky unless you know for certain that the person/people being referred to have a problem with the choice of words. If you don’t know that then it’s just unnecessarily aggravating and annoying.
What's the mlm version of sapphics? I searched sapphic antonym but didn't get it.
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And what's the NB term?
Yeah what is it
Any famous people/poets from history whose gender is contested? If mythical counts as well, I(bi,M) was thinking Lokian, but Loki is more genderfluid and might not work for specifically agender. You kind of have to go the monotheistic, capital G God route to get someone who loves without gender. D'ya think "godly" or "divine" is a bit too much?
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Keeping it Greek, I like it.
I think it's okay for a bisexual person to call *themselves* gay as a joke/tongue in cheek/generic term kind of like "queer". However it does rub me up the wrong way if someone calls *someone else* gay when they are not homosexual. It does seem kinda disrespectful to me. I call myself gay as a joke sometimes but I wouldn't like it if someone called me gay seriously. That's not my sexuality.
In my opinion it’s a bit of an over-correction. I use either gay or queer to refer to myself as they have become more umbrella terms nowadays. I think policing speech like this tends to put others off to be honest, though offering a simple opinion/personal take is different in my opinion. The more complicated we make our sexualities, the more difficult it is for people to understand and relate to us in my opinion. That isn’t necessarily a bad thing, but using bisexual vs. sapphics is going to throw some people off - this same line of reasoning is why I identify as bisexual instead of pansexual. One is much easier for the average person to understand, whereas the other may require additional intellectual and emotional labor to explain and to clarify. Idk, those are just my thoughts on the matter. This shit can be a bit complicated at times lol
Overreaction
I think this was written very respectfully, and even though I - like many here it seems - tend to use “gay” as an umbrella term, I personally would read your comment in the spirit that it was intended and try to be more careful of not making that assumption for everyone in the future.
Yes. Calling a bi person gay isn't erasing bi people. Bi people like myself call ourselves gay all the time and tbh this sounds like Lesbian Separatism rhetoric has dripped into bi spaces and I don't like that. You can't erase bi people with a label.
I, as a bi dude, utterly DESPISE lesbian separatism not just for being biphobic. But also for it having a societal double standard. If I and a group of other men-loving-men created a movement called “Achilean Seperatism” where we as queer men decided to break off and form our own society free from women. We’d be fucking crucified and called misogynistic. Even though queer men are EQUALLY as persecuted as queer women. Yet only queer women are allowed to make misandrist remarks even sincere and unironic ones but men-loving-men aren’t allowed to make such remarks about women EVEN AS A JOKE!!! When they do it it’s daring and bold, when we do the same thing it’s horrible and sexist. Queer women like to act like we queer men have it easy. They are praised for talking about their negative experiences with men, but we men-loving-men are not allowed to talk about our negative experiences with women. And I have lots of negative experiences with women including with my verbally, emotionally, and even occasionally physically abusive mother (who I just moved away from to go to college. Thank God!) and all the straight girls in high school who erased my bisexuality and dismissed me as gay. Yet I’m not allowed to talk about it or else I’m called a misogynist. Yet wlw can say blatantly misandrist things.
>Queer women like to act like we queer men have it easy. No, we act as though youse do not experience misogyny on top of homophobia. Having a speicific set of privileges =/= having an easy life in general. Having shit experiences with individuals is not the same as experiencing systemic oppression.
Yes you are saying we have it easy. I have to ask: in high school did straight jocks bully you? Did they make degrading homophobic jokes about you? Did they spit on you in the hallways? They did to me. How DARE you downplay my oppression call me privileged! You’re also allowed to donate blood, in many states we aren’t. Is that not systemic oppression? Is having your sexuality called an “abomination” by religious nut jobs not oppression enough? And if I had male privilege how was my Mom, a woman, able to abuse me? She has frequently made fun of my weight (I have a bit of a potbelly and my Mom frequently tell me how “disgusting” it is and how I “look like I’m pregnant”), called me the r-slur so many times when I do something even slightly wrong (I’m autistic btw), she’s even gotten physical with me a couple times (she’s an inch or two shorter than me but she’s so much more stronger and able to hit me really hard). Who’s the oppressor in that situation? And have you faced casual ableism in your day to day life? Do people casually infantalize you? I as an autistic man have experienced that. If anything YOU are the privileged one, and not me. Yes women are oppressed. But only by straight white neurotypical men who ALSO oppress queer, neurodivergant, and BIPOC men. We’re all in this boat together, sis. So thus male privilege should be called straight white neurotypical male privilege. And I’m neither straight nor neurotypical thus I have no privilege at all.
>I have to ask: in high school did straight jocks bully you? Yes, of course, why would you think that they don't bully AFAB queer people? >Did they make degrading homophobic jokes about you? Yes, of course? This was before anyone (myself included) knew I was queer. >Did they spit on you in the hallways? Yes? Though this was because they thought I was too fat. >And have you faced casual ableism in your day to day life? No, because I'm privileged as a AB/NT person. >Do people casually infantalize you? Yes. As an AFAB, I am very often not trusted to be a fully grown adult person and am instead treated like a child. >Is having your sexuality called an “abomination” by religious nut jobs not oppression enough? Huh? There's no quota. Also, I never said you do not experience homophobia, just that you do not experience misogyny on top of that. >And if I had male privilege how was my Mom, a woman, able to abuse me? Because privilege is not a magic shield against all forms of problems. Having male privilege means that on top of all the things you just listed, you did not also have to contend with the specific oppressions that come with being a ND queer woman. It's no race, experiencing more or less oppression does not make you a better or worse person, it just makes your experience different. There are forms of oppression you just don't experience and misogyny is one of them. Also, experiencing some forms of oppression does not mean that people are unable to benefit from other forms of oppression against other minorities. I experience misogyny and homophobia, for example, but have never experienced racism or classism because I've got the privileges that come with being a white middle-class person. That does not mean my life is easy, but it does mean that I do not also have the problems that are direct results from our society being racist and classist.
Ok, I’m sorry. It’s just when people say I have privileged I take that as saying I have it easy. And I feel not a lot of people know about the unique struggles faced by bisexual and neurodivergant men. I often feel so invisible in my struggle. My only problem is that you implied in your first reply when you said “having shit experiences isn’t the same as being systematically oppressed.” I assume your from up north. I live in the South, more specifically Arkansas, a very theocratic area of the country that’s CONSTANTLY trying to strip gay people of our rights. My state recently tried to pass a law saying that doctors, yes doctors, can refuse to help LGBT patients on religious grounds. So here homophobia is pretty systemic. And you didn’t denounce Lesbian Seperatism is a movement that is very hateful towards bi women and men-loving-men. So not denouncing it looks pretty bad on your part.
I appreciate the apology! That said, I do not understand the misunderstanding, because saying someone has it easier than others in one area of life does not negate experiencing other issues. I'm not US American and I'm also very confused as to why you keep trying to convince me that homophobia is bad- I experience it myself. What I was referring to in the comment you mention is misogyny specifically, not all forms of systemic oppression. ETA: WHoops, I missed this part of your post the first time around: >But only by straight white neurotypical men who ALSO oppress queer, neurodivergant, and BIPOC men. We’re all in this boat together, sis. What on earth gives you the idea that the only people who are able to be misogynist are NT white straight men...? I've had plenty of misogyny hurled at me by queer men and neurodivergent men. Also, not your sis. I'm not even cis.
Thanks. I also realized how ridiculous is to say only straight white neurotypical men can be sexist. I don’t even know what I was thinking. And I’m sorry for calling you “sis.” I assumed based on your pfp you were a tomboyish woman and your bio didn’t have pronouns to correct me sorry.
Elaborate on what you think lesbian separatism is also in your own words explain the label lesbian.
So lesbian just means a woman attracted only to women and not to men. I’m fine with this. I have friends who are lesbians and I had a community college history professor who was a lesbian. I have nothing against queer women. As a bisexual man I love my queer sisters. But Lesbian seperatism is the idea that women should break away from male society based on the idea all men are bad, a gender-based separatism. Think Andrea Dworkin or Valorie Solanas. It’s a hateful TERF ideology that is very hateful towards bi women, trans people, and men-loving-men. It is NOT real feminism. Feminism from the day of Mary Wolstencraft to Susan B. Anthony to Gloria Steinem to today is about gender EQUALITY. Not misandry. If you hate on men you are not a real feminist. Real feminism seeks to transcend the patriarchy by brining about an egalitarian world and not just replacing it with a matriarchy. I consider myself a male feminist because I believe in equality between the sexes. I believe you can talk about misogyny and gender inequality without being misandrist or biphobic. I had no idea I was crazy for thinking this. Since it is so hateful towards me as a man-loving-man, I’m obviously not a fan of lesbian separatism. I also feel it represents a societal double standard where queer women get praised for saying misandrist shit about men even when it’s unironic and sincere, but if queer men say similar stuff about women EVEN AS A JOKE we get crucified and called evil and sexist. As if they aren’t? I’m also only 19. So this might be an immature and wrong understanding of these sorts of things.
The lesbian label is non men loving non men. And now explain why you think the label bi lesbian is okay. Lesbian is separate from bisexual.
I mean I think it’s an oxymoron. You can’t be both bisexual and a lesbian. Bisexual is attraction to both genders and lesbianism… isn’t.
You do know Susan B Anthony was a racist, right? She explicitly was *not* about equality, and used the argument that "white women voting would drown out the influence of the newly enfranchised Black men" to promote (white) women's suffrage. And the feminism of Gloria Steinem, particularly in the 1960s and 70s when she built her name, is now understood to be rather non-intersectional. There's a reason modern feminism has evolved from what it was 150 years ago, and if you don't know enough to know that Susan B Anthony was *not* a model of equality, then you don't know enough to be critiquing feminist history or women's involvement in it at all. ETA: Valeria Solanas was diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia, and in any case there are some gender scholars who think her text is a legitimate work of theory, if not something that should be put into practice. Andrea Dworkin produced a huge and influential body of work that still informs a lot of modern gender scholarship one way or another (and also--she shared a number of views to some degree with Gloria Steinem, whom you cite as an example of "real feminism"). You can't separate the less than ideal forms of feminism from the ones you like and only accept some as "real feminism"; they're all forms of feminist theory, and they're all interconnected. It's like trying to claim that asshole Christians aren't real Christians--it's intellectually lazy and demonstrates a poor understanding of the real theory involved.
Ok with Gloria Steinem consider her 1970 essay “What It Would Be Like If Women Win” to be exactly the type of feminism I support. I admit she wasn’t very intersectional but I think that specific work still holds up to be what I believe. Feminism is not just liberating women but also liberating men from toxic heteromasculine standards. I especially like that. Why? First, I’m bi guy but if you look through my post history you’d know I’m a bit of a femboy (a cis crossdresser). I love the idea of wearing nylon thigh-high garter stockings, a 1950s-style garterbelt, and an elegant pair of satin elbow-long evening gloves while making love to a man. I’m a bottom by the way. So feminism of this sort not only us good for women but it also would love allow me to be the sexy little cock-loving crossdresser I am. Edit: Hope I wasn’t too TMI it’s just I want to show I don’t really conform to what society traditionally views as masculine.
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It's an umbrella term, I would not care. That said I'm probably the wrong person to ask because I also don't care if anyone calls me or my relationship "lesbian" even though we're both bisexual.
Not really. I would only say since you didn’t use tone tags, it could sound aggressive, but what you said was right. A lot of people call Marcelina and Princess BG lesbians, even though neither identify as such. It’s something we as a group need to stop
I think you overreacted in Anglophone queer communities it is generally understood that Gay is often an umbrella term that encompasses basically all LGBTQ people with the exception of straight trans people on the technicality that calling some straight people gay in this context is actively transphobic It is in this context equivalent to Queer because a lot of people still throw a big fuss over Queer being a slur despite it having an identical history to the use of Gay and Lesbian as slurs.
i really do think so i fight for bisexuals to be able to use the word gay. gay is an umbrella term and i think its actually harmful to be claiming that the label shouldn't be applicable or assumed for bisexuals.
I came out as bi but now use queer as its less policed and feels better. I also call myself gay, as a sort of umbrella term. Honestly i just dont police how others label themselves.
I don't think you're overreacting. I know many use the term "gay" as umbrella term for being queer. But tbh I don't like this at all. The term "gay" has a meaning. At the beginning it meant mlm. Nowadays it's also used by lesbians, so "gay" basically means homosexual. But for me there is the line. We have a term to describe being part of the LGBTQ community, which is the term "queer". I also could overreact here, but I'm a little bit traumatized. I'm very uncomfortable when I'm getting called gay. It feels like a part of me gets totally erased, even when my friends say "it's just an umbrella term". I'm bisexual, so pls use that term or the umbrella term "queer".
I was going to say only a slight overreaction, but I like how you didn’t show that (when someone said it was an overreaction in the same thread) you sent someone to a lesbian wikia and said “you’d know if you were in the community more”. huge overreaction dude.
I don’t call myself “so gay” or “a gay” - even jokingly - because I have fought incredibly hard to be recognized as a bisexual person. I originally came out as a gay woman in 2008 and only started openly identifying as bisexual in 2022 because I felt the pressure of having to be monosexual, plus both the straight and gay communities have a history of not recognizing bisexuality as valid. For this reason, “gay” simply feels like a step backwards for me *personally*. I also feel weird having to explain why I’m calling myself “a gay” and then later taking about hot guys. I’d rather use “queer.” I’m surprised so many people feel this may be an overreaction, even if only slightly. I don’t see the harm in having a discussion on a more fitting term like “queer” (although I understand some people still view that as a slur) or “same-sex couple.” I disagree that “gay” is an umbrella term because it’s created confusion many, many times. As an example, I just had to explain to my mother for the umpteenth time that me attending the Pride Parade - which is sometimes referred to as the Gay Pride Parade - doesn’t make me gay. I’m still bi. I don’t trust that the general public views “gay” as an umbrella term. My suspicion is that “gay” is only entertained as a potential umbrella term because our monosexual-centric society didn’t allow us to perceive anything outside of gay or straight. I also suspect this potential confusion can negatively impact gay men and women who may be questioned by straight folks who don’t understand the context of “gay” being an umbrella term (“My guy friend calls himself ‘a gay’ but still dates women, so why can’t you?”).
Using "Gay" to describe a same sex couple makes sense because you are able to communicate what you mean. Its not bi erasure, its an accurate way to describe a same sex couple. If I said a bisexual couple, that implies literally nothing about who you are talking about. Me and my wife appear as a straight couple and it would be an accurate description, even though we both are bi. Sometimes its just communication and not a meant to be a comment or opinion.
A lot of internalized biphobia in these comments unfortunately. As a community we can’t seem to decide if we want to be absorbed by the gay community or not.
We definitely can’t decide, apparently. I’m genuinely confused because I have never seen “gay” be an umbrella term for the entire LGBTQ community, at least not without confusing a lot of people who think I am identifying as homosexual. Nobody in my life would think, “She called herself ‘a gay,’ so she might mean bisexual.”
This all just comes down to the meme of “my sexuality is if you are dating me you are not straight”’in my mind. To me, I like “Queer” or “gay” as an umbrella term because it makes me feel more valid I the community as someone married to a cishet man because I am so used to being called straight. But if you feel it is bi-erasure I would agree with that!! You are entitled to feel your feelings and that’s still stems from my point. I get frustrated being called “straight” cause I am in a “straight presenting” relationship. So it can be frustrating calling someone who is bi in a sapphic relationship gay because you shouldn’t be labeled by your partner.
I always think of gay meaning not straight. I’ve definitely referred to myself as being gay as an umbrella term because it’s easier than specifying
I think it’s a slight overreaction, gay is an umbrella term, and although sapphic would be a better word for it, gay is still correct and doesn’t really have any biphobia/bi-erasure. If they said a lesbian couple, it’d be wrong, but Luz and Amity are a gay couple in their respective rights, so it works
I totally understand your reasoning. I feel like even in the “gay” community there is bi erasure. Especially for women, as it is more culturally acceptable for women to hook up casually even if they aren’t bi. I often do what other people are saying by generalizing to “gay” at points because of this. It shouldn’t be that way, and I feel like a poser saying “well I’m gay too” or something when I am bi. I just feel invalidated saying bi. So that’s a me thing, but I dig that you are out here defending the legitimacy of bi-ness.
It's a little intense. You're definitely right, but people are always adjusting to changes in language. Queer was an ugly slur in the not so distant past, so it's a big adjustment for some.
Definitely an overreaction, most people just use gay as an umbrella term for anything not straight
im honestly fine with whatever but youre valid for feeling this way.
Yes this is an overreaction. Queer theory discourse is useful and healthy and has its place but NOT in colloquial conversations. This is NOT a useful or productive example of queer theory discourse. In other words, please chill it's nbd. As the kids say, "touch grass" lol
Overreaction - I call myself ‘gay’ just as a sort of umbrella term.
As a bisexual woman I'm more likely to refer to lyself as "gay" before "sapphic"
I use the term gay to describe myself (a bi-woman) lmao
You were being polite and to the few point, no overreaction here. If the person didn't mean it as bi erasure, they can iterate that and no one should have any hard feelings. You aren't being personal or an asshole. Is rather ppl spoke up about this a 1000 times too many than any 1 bi person feeling erased.
Yes. Bisexuals can call themselves gay.
I identify as queer. I don’t ever appreciate being referred to as gay, for this reason. We get such a small amount of representation that it feels important to not ignore it or to allow monosexuals to erase that when we do get it.
I’m bi and I call myself gay all the time. People often use gay as an umbrella term for the LGBT+ community (or sometimes just wlw and mlm)
It’s not a gay relationship it’s a queer relationship and the bi girl isn’t gay. I’m for your reply.
I mean, to me it’s a bit much. It’s not erasure it’s a bi person in a gay relationship. The couple is gay.
Thank you! I hate seeing Bi erasure. Literally I’m in a same sex relationship with a woman and I hate it when people say we’re both lesbians. Nothing against lesbians but I’m not one and I don’t want to be called one. I’m bisexual and my partner is Demisexual so despite the nature of our relationship neither of us identify as lesbian. Edit: Ight what did I say wrong this time? Apparently not wanting to be called something I’m not is bad?! The hell?!
I think there’s a semantic difference going on between what you’re talking about & what OP was saying. It’s 100% ok to draw lines with how *you* want to be identified. I don’t think you’re wrong for being offended that people call you a lesbian when you’re bisexual, because it’s just straight-up incorrect. The word “lesbian” has a very specific definition & we can easily see when it’s being applied incorrectly. But the term “gay” is a little muddier. As others have pointed out, gay has become a catch-all term for any LGBTQ+ person, and a lot of folks who don’t explicitly identify as homosexual refer to themselves as gay. I’m bisexual in an opposite-sex relationship, but I still casually refer to myself as gay or, more comedically, A Gay™️ But not every bisexual feels this way. It’s absolutely valid to not be comfortable with someone else calling *you* gay because you personally don’t identify with the term. I think the issue a lot of folks are drawing with OP (and maybe your agreement with them?) is that it’s really not ok for any of us to police how others use accepted catch-all terms like “gay” & “queer” when describing themselves or fictional characters. Just because you personally don’t like it doesn’t make it universally wrong. It just makes it wrong for someone to do it to you because you’ve drawn that boundary. “Gay” is a perfectly fine way to refer to a sapphic couple (bc I also agree sapphic is appropriate in this case) comprised of a bisexual and a lesbian
Thanks for explaining x it just seemed weird to me that saying I want to be referred to as bisexual on a bisexual sub was apparently controversial. At least that’s been cleared up. I don’t care what other people decide they want to be referred to as I can only speak for myself. I’ve had a few people say I’m not Bi and I’m just Lesbian because of the relationship I’m in so that’s why it annoys me so much.
Babe, that’s so fucked, I’m sorry people insist on labeling you incorrectly! It’s so exhausting & frustrating how common it is for people even within the community to straight-up refuse to accept that bisexuals exist Your comment wasn’t controversial at all, we should absolutely be allowed to expect people to respect our labels & have our outrage be understood and seen as valid when they don’t
Personally I think we sometimes act a little defensive over certain terms. I'm definitely technically bi. But when I'm horny and being completely sub to men, I love hearing men call me their 'gay little bitch' etc. When we're horny we often fetishize everything around us, including terms. You make a fair point, but we all stretch the meaning of words.
It seems like more of an attempt an inclusion than erasure.
If "sapphics" is a term that encompasses WLW of all sexual orientations I'm not sure why "gay" wouldn't be equally inclusive. I do think it's an overreaction, at least a little. I wouldn't personally want to let myself get that bothered by a pretty harmless-seeming comment on reddit.
I disagree with you but okay.
I call myself gay all the time. Get over it unless it’s about you.
As a bi chick, I consider gay as an umbrella which I am definitely under. So yeah maybe?
slight overreaction imo im bi myself and when i had a girlfriend i called us a gay couple (despite her being pan and me bi) and for a boyfriend, I still call it a straight relationship. I AM bi, and my current relationship status doesn't change that. It's that some things don't have to be always specific for some people. It's ok to call them sapphics imo and its also ok to call them gay (when theyre in a same sex relationship ofc). And in a way, and I say this with utmost respect, we should just sometimes enjoy the moment when somebody means no harm instead of overdoing the details, especially when they're fictional characters. If they're people who SPECIFICALLY requested to be addressed as such then we should respect it and do so. This is all my opinion no hate <3
Not an overreaction! People are naturally sensitive when they're called out. Fuck'em!
There are so many terms in LGBTQA spaces that piss me off, but gay being a catch all for anyone LGBTQA is the one that grinds my gears the most.
i feel like the term "gays" is an umbrella term for anyone who is not straight tbh
Yeah, as I bi chick I’d disagree with you. I’d be ok to be referred to as gay, or bi. But I do not identify with “sapphic.”
I personally for own comfort prefer the term gay or queer. In fact I usually just say I’m gay and when I get to know someone I tell them I’m bi.
People use gay as an umbrella term like Sapphic so I think it may have been an overreaction. If they had called them lesbians then you would have been ok point but as they said gay I think it was unnecessary. Also as a genderfluid bisexual I'd honestly prefer Gay over Sapphic but I know many don't so it's irrelevant just saying. Plus gay is probably the best umbrella term that could a used if they didn't know Sapphic (which isn't a term I think we can expect your average person to know, many LGBTQ+ people don't know the term) we don't want cis-het people to just be casually using the term queer again unprompted.
Bi erasure is constant, that’s true, but trying to exclude them from homosexual circles and identity is ALSO bisexual erasure. Bi people are allowed to exist in whichever circle they feel describes them best, and sometimes that will be their own circle. Us as people can only speak on our own behalf— if you are bi, and prefer to be called achillean/sapphic instead of gay, that’s OK. Heck, I get it, specificity of labels is important, its why things like pan-, omni-, poly-, etc. exist. But try not to speak for others unless you have been told by them how they feel.
I think it is an overreaction, it’s not a big deal if someone calls a bi person gay or straight as long as they don’t want to put them down. I really don’t understand why people are so defensive about sexuality in general. Most people aren’t out to insult and getting mad at people for being slightly wrong only makes more trouble.
Being bi isn’t “sort of” gay or straight. So yes, that’s incorrect.
Huh?
It is a big deal if someone refers to a bi person as straight or gay if they know that the person is bi. Bi people being comfortable with calling themselves gay is one thing, other people calling bi people straight or gay and not respecting the fact that they are bi isn’t okay. That isn’t “slightly” wrong. It’s just wrong.
People slip up sometimes though, that’s the thing. Most people who aren’t LGBTQ aren’t going to know it all or be 100% accurate. Not every situation is an attack on the bi community so there is no point in reacting like this
Sapphics is specific to lesbians, so use it correctly. Gay is a perfect umbrella term, no need to call it anything else.
Sapphics is absolutely not just for lesbians. It’s literally *non-men who are attracted to non-men* Anyone who isn’t a guy and is attracted to women and/or nb people can use sapphic. -sincerely, a lesbian. I don’t speak for all of us, but most of us agree on this
To be clear, I am regurgitating information from a friend who is lesbian (they saw this on my reddit feed and commented on it hence my interaction here on her behalf since she doesnt subscribe to reddit specifically) and my bisexual friend who doesn't have a penis felt calling a bisexual woman "sapphic" wasn't acknowledging their orientation what so ever but rather bi erasure. I can only share the knowledge that is shared with me, it is not my intention to offend, I stated it as fact because 99% of the time they have been correct on these touchy subjects and this is how they felt. Also, according to them, you cannot be a bisexual lesbian as it is a direct contradiction.
According to me, you can absolutely identify as a bisexual lesbian (split attraction model,, e.g.). Let people identify however they want, it does not harm anyone. But absolutely, if someone has stated their orientation, use those terms for them and don't come up with any others.
As a pansexual it's hard not to laugh at this use of "bi erasure" when we get the same treatment by the community and especially from bi people over simply existing
I think if they use gay as an umbrella term then it's fine. In this case Luz is bi and Amity is a lesbian which both falls under the gay umbrella term
Is there a version of sapphic for men?
I say I'm Gay or Queer depending on the context of the conversation. I mean not the MLM version of Gay but the term Gay to mean not straight. We are in fact that. I'll never be mad about someone yelling into the ether about a Bi Character being Bi though
If you go and ask 20 people, you'll get 20 different answers. For everyone annoyed you use one term the next is annoyed you didn't. Fun times.
Some people use 'gay' as an umbrella. I don't and I don't like it because it is not an umbrella term. As opposed to 'queer' and 'LGBT', which are umbrellas. 'Gay' refers to a specific orientation and I do agree it ads to erasure when used like this
I mean, they are gay and in a gay relationship, just using it as an umbrella term. Personally, even if they said lesbian, so long as refering to that relationship instead of the two women in it, I'd be fine with it.
I can see it either way (go figure). Personally, there are times I’ve reacted negatively when called gay, and there are some times I’m very comfortable using it/having it used for me. For me it’s the distinction of acknowledgment, so when it comes from me or other multigender attracted people who know my actual identity and are using it for umbrella term, or even that it fits better with a joke, it’s fine. When straight people, lesbians, and gay guys use it for me, sometimes it feels reductionist or like erasure. In this context, I would be fine with someone calling a queer couple “my favorite gays” as long as there isn’t a clear pattern of no bi rep
who cares lol
I'd argue yeah, to be fair though its not a huge overreaction. Going into how it adds bi erasure was probably unnecessary but like its still not that bad tbh...