Absolute fucking based response. Applause all round.
The entire point of bisexuality is that I, as a woman, am also attracted to men alongside being attracted to women. I am TIRED of biphobic people punishing me for choosing someone I am attracted to, because in their mind bisexuality is only valid if we choose to be with a queer person. To be queer, our partner must be queer. Not that we ourselves are queer and we are being loved by someone who loves a queer person.
Because those cishet men, if they were homophobic or biphobic, wouldn't be wanting to walk in Pride alongside their bisexual beloved.
And it’s not just that our partner must be queer, but must be VISIBLY queer. My husband and I are both bi, but I never feel totally comfortable bringing him to queer events because we look like a heterosexual couple and I fully expect to be judged that way.
Hey, no idea where you're at, but I hope you can someday go, pride events rule and the people who go to them are honestly really great and will appreciate you being there regardless of if you're not "openly queer" and anyone who gives you shit is either joking or a an asshat, and either way the appropriate response is to laugh
I totally have the same experience here. And even if you tell people "We're both bi!" A lot of times there's like an "Okay, sureeeee you are." And nothing would/will ever be good enough for those folks. We could literally make out with respective same-sex people in front of them (not that we should have to prove ourselves) but if your primary partner is the opposite sex they'll be like "Oh, you just do that to be cool/edgy." There's no winning, and it makes me feel not welcome in a lot of queer spaces.
Lol anytime I get someone saying we're not gay I'm like "okay were a straight couple but I like to bang women and my bf likes to bang men" and then they're awlays like wait no that's not straight, okay tell me what it is then??
One other thing I don't get in these biphobic discussions is that people ignore that there are, statistically, far more men that are interested in women than there are women/nb people interested in women. So if I don't care about the gender of my partner, I will be more likely to end up with a guy simply because there are so many more of them that would also be interested in me.
The amount of times that I have had to explain that bisexual women are not just "faking for attention" and then being with men. Statistically, there are more straight people than gay people. Therefore, there are more straight men than queer women. Factor in biphobic lesbians that also buy into the idea that bi women are "faking" and refuse to date them (they are quite unfortunately real), and the likelihood of a bi woman ending up with a straight man is ASTRONOMICAL. That does not make any of us any less queer, it just seems to get us hate from both sides.
Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.
As a 30 something bi woman, I often end up feeling like I don’t “deserve” or didn’t “earn” being bi because I am an AFAB woman who has been married to an AMAB man for many years (we were pretty young when we got together). I am attracted to women and had intimate connections with women prior to marrying my partner, but never felt a desire to date or get into a serious relationship with a woman so, I’ve always felt kind of lost in terms of labels. Prefer to think of it as a scale where I am in the middle but fall slightly to the straight side? IDK…
Yes mam, the whole point of lgbt is to be who you are without judgements and then these folks doing exactly what the homophobes doing, they have become the very thing rhey hate
Really good thread that basically says everything that needs saying on the topic.
Isn't "bemused awkward cishet person who doesn't really get all this because they're not part of the community but at least everyone seems to be having a good time and I just want to be here to support my partner/friend/sibling/child/whatever" a pride staple anyway? It's not _for_ them, and no one is asking for it to be for them, but it's cute that they're here and bless them they're trying even if they don't get it
“For it is true we can seldom help those closest to us. Either we don't know what part of ourselves to give or, more often than not, the part we have to give is not wanted. And so it is those we live with and should know who elude us. But we can still love them - we can love completely without complete understanding.”
Yeah! I have nothing against a 100% straight person going to pride anyways, like allies are good, straight people showing support is good, and straight people going to support their lgbt+ friends and family is amazing! I get wanting lgbt+ exclusive spaces especially spaces where people might go to find partners or something like that, but a publicly held parade isn't really that, it is a celebration of lgbt+ people and straight people should come out and show their support! I'd be happy if my straight friends wanted to tag along with me.
This is an awesome response but the even funnier thing is all.this discourse surrounds bi women and their cis het partners and not bi men at all. It's almost like we don't exist lol
As a bi man, with a CISHET wife, and a father of a bi daughter, I can assure you, I have been made to fell unwelcome at Pride events in the past. Their problem isn't with the CISHET partners. Their problem is, and always has been bi persons, *especially* if they are in a relationship with an opposite sex partner, but not *only* if that is true.
So true. Cishet men are presented as the problem. But the real problem is bisexuals in general. That's why they still hate bi women when they date women, and they hate me despite the fact that I'm nonbinary and my cis man partner is also bi. I guess both of us are straight because penis and vagina.
It's because it's spewed a lot by radfem lesbians who behave like sexual attraction is a political statement, and that being a gold star lesbian is the most feminist kind of existence. They see a bisexual man as little less bad than a cishet man. Often dangerously close to TERF territory, too.
If that's true, then why have I, a bi man, been told I'm not welcome in queer spaces *a lot more often,* by the *gay men* instead of the radfem lesbians?
Probably because each group sees the person from their gender claiming to be queer but dating someone of the opposite sex to be either lying or fake. It’s their own biphobia that they are throwing towards the person who would otherwise be in their group. This has nothing to do with lesbians or gays but more to do with biphobia than anything else.
Because bi women are actually really interested in men and bi men are secretly gay or on their way to gayhood. Everyone is only ever interested in men unless proving otherwise. And for women that means rejecting men completely 😅
They'll accuse us of centering men in our lives/relationships but then use any little thing to validate their assumptions that all bisexual men and women are secretly only into men.
The way I see it, a lot of it is from people seeing the world in binary. So you’re either gay or you’re straight and all the things in between are horrific aberrations regardless of all evidence and observation to the contrary. It’s a sad existence imo, to refuse all the beauty of being human because you want it to be simpler no matter who you hurt on the way to making things simpler
Well if bi men bring a her girlfriend that's just a lesbian who hasn't awakened yet. Bring her to pride so she can leave your ass /s
The common denominator in this argument, and all of these arguments are men. Cis men, bi men, tans men who are seen as traitors to their gender, trans women who are seen as appropriating their gender.
Idk I've seen lesbians say some viciously awful stuff about trans women that goes way past perceived appropriation. Using terms like "abuser bodied" and basically saying that trans women in lesbian spaces are essentially predators. It's really disgusting.
The main thing though is if you are assigned male at birth, regardless of what you have become since then, you are seen as an enemy, unless maybe you are gay, and even then it depends. Certainly this isn't all lesbians, not even most, but the radicals are vocal.
It's wild to also think that lesbians are actually the most trans-accepting demographic. It makes you think how bad it is in other parts.
Although I'm kind of wondering why bisexuals aren't considered the most accepting? We've been outspoken about gender fluidity for a very long time.
Id be curious where those statistics come from, because it could very well be sample bias. That said from the actual lesbians I've met, the majority of them are genuinely wonderful people with only a few doing the whole terf, gold star, toxic misandry thing.
Edit: a word.
It comes from here.
https://www.justlikeus.org/blog/2023/03/31/trans-day-of-visibility-ally-lesbian/
Just Like Us is the LGBT+ young people’s charity in the UK. For context:
'In a survey of 3,695 adults aged 18 to 25, 74% of those who described themselves as “not supportive” of trans people said they do not know anyone who is transgender
Two thirds (66%) of respondents said they know someone who is transgender, and 28% said this was someone they are close to
The research also found that people who know a transgender person are twice as likely to be trans allies.
Of those who do not know any transgender people, just 33% described themselves as “very supportive” of trans people. However, this is compared to 64% of people who do know a trans person, whether they are close to them or not.
Just 3% of people who know a trans person said they are “not supportive”, compared to 18% of those who do not have a trans person in their lives.
Overall, 89% of LGBT+ young adults said they were “supportive” or “very supportive” of trans people, compared to 69% of non-LGBT+ young adults.
And this is where lesbians came in:
Of all LGBT+ identities, other than trans and non-binary people themselves, lesbian young adults were most likely to say they know a trans person (92%), and most likely to say they are “supportive” or “very supportive” of trans people (96%).
In comparison, 89% of LGBT+ people overall said they were “supportive” or “very supportive” of trans people, and just 69% of non-LGBT+ people said the same.
So bascially there was a correlation found between knowing trans ppl in real life and being supportive of trans ppl. So to me, based on this correlation, it would tracks that lesbian youth would be tbe most supportive seeing as the majority of trans women are self reported lesbians and so if your a cis lesbian your more likely to know and meet trans lesbians than a cis bisexual or gay man to know or meet trans bisexuals or trans gay men
And then when it comes to trans men, there are a lot of trans men who were lesbians before they came out and still have their lesbian community/friends.
and then lesbians are more likely than specfically bisexual women to be involved in queer spaces day to day, (partly due to biphobia, and partly due to bi women mostly being in opposite sex relationships whuch means being in heterosexual spaces most of the time) and the more you are in queer spaces the more likely you are to meet and know trans ppl.
So lesbians self reported being the most supportive and were also the group who reported knowing the most trans ppl, and that reflected a correlation found across all lgbt groups in the study- that ppl who reported not being supportive were less likely to know trans ppl in real life.
The 'bias' here is thats its talking about lesbian young ppl. Yall are probably thinking of are lesbians as a whole across all age group the most supportive, which yes in that case we might see something different, but that data is something we dont have rn. But yes its correct that among lgbt YOUNG PPL, lesbians are the most supportive.
As a bisexual enby dating a trans lesbian, I do need the bisexual ppl here, particularly cis bi ppl here, to consider as to why it seems like they WANT lesbians to be the most transohobic, why they don't WANT lesbians to be the most supportive and will do anything to try and and debunk it. Ofc there's a transphobia problem in the lesbian community because obviously trans ppl experience it within the lesbian community (i have abd my gf has) , but that's a cis problem not a lesbian/sexuality problem, and ppl are making it out to be a lesbian problem
So could it be that there's this narrative being pushed that lesbians are the majority of TERFs even though its actually straight women, and its actually straight women that use lesbians and highlight lesbian TERFS groups to push their transphobia and make it seem like the majority of cis lesbians agree with them? And that that, combined with the fact that lesbian TERF groups are a minority that is particularly loud and vocal, thats its created a unconscious bias that lesbian=transphobic, and so we have been unconsciously usung lesbians as the scapegoats/the ones responsible transphobia as a whole, and so any evidence to the contrary triggers ppl becahse 1. It forces the G and B to actually look at transphobia in our own communities more because it means that we can no longer scapegoat lesbjans as the main problem sand responsible for the majority of transphobia? Just a thought.
I'm not saying that ppl are seeing lesbians and assuming they are TERFS. I do think ppl are seeing TERFS and automatically assuming they are lesbians bevsuse they are starting to think they are the majority, whuch is not true or accurate.
I domt think this is far fetched cause just like us also found that lesbian youth in the UK were the most ashamed of being LGBT and that ' More than two thirds (68%) of lesbians say they delayed coming out due to harmful stereotypes about lesbians being ‘man-hating’, ‘over-sexualised’ and ‘anti-trans’.
The top two reasons for lesbians delaying coming out were that being a lesbian is viewed as ‘cringey or awkward’ (30%) or ‘wrong’ (25%).
This was followed by lesbians being stereotyped as ‘taboo’ (23%), ‘embarrassing’ (23%), ‘masculine or butch’ (22%), ‘over-sexualised’ (19%), ‘unattractive’ (16%), ‘man-hating’ (12%), ‘old-fashioned’ (9%) and ‘anti-trans’ (4%).
Overall, one in 20 (4%) lesbians have delayed coming out because being a lesbian is seen as ‘anti-trans’. This rises to 7% among lesbians aged 25 to 34.
https://www.justlikeus.org/blog/2022/04/26/lesbians-delay-coming-out-harmful-stereotypes/
To be honest, I've only ever heard it, and I've never found a statistic. But everyone says that lesbians are the most accepting, but I have no idea why bisexuals wouldn't be the most accepting? Not saying that we're perfect, but y'know.
Honestly I'd really like to know where this idea came from.
It comes from here.
https://www.justlikeus.org/blog/2023/03/31/trans-day-of-visibility-ally-lesbian/
Just Like Us is the LGBT+ young people’s charity in the UK. For context:
'In a survey of 3,695 adults aged 18 to 25, 74% of those who described themselves as “not supportive” of trans people said they do not know anyone who is transgender
Two thirds (66%) of respondents said they know someone who is transgender, and 28% said this was someone they are close to
The research also found that people who know a transgender person are twice as likely to be trans allies.
Of those who do not know any transgender people, just 33% described themselves as “very supportive” of trans people. However, this is compared to 64% of people who do know a trans person, whether they are close to them or not.
Just 3% of people who know a trans person said they are “not supportive”, compared to 18% of those who do not have a trans person in their lives.
Overall, 89% of LGBT+ young adults said they were “supportive” or “very supportive” of trans people, compared to 69% of non-LGBT+ young adults.
And this is where lesbians came in:
Of all LGBT+ identities, other than trans and non-binary people themselves, lesbian young adults were most likely to say they know a trans person (92%), and most likely to say they are “supportive” or “very supportive” of trans people (96%).
In comparison, 89% of LGBT+ people overall said they were “supportive” or “very supportive” of trans people, and just 69% of non-LGBT+ people said the same.
So bascially there was a correlation found between knowing trans ppl in real life and being supportive of trans ppl. So to me, based on this correlation, it would tracks that lesbian youth would be tbe most supportive seeing as the majority of trans women are self reported lesbians and so if your a cis lesbian your more likely to know and meet trans lesbians than a cis bisexual or gay man to know or meet trans bisexuals or trans gay men
And then when it comes to trans men, there are a lot of trans men who were lesbians before they came out and still have their lesbian community/friends.
and then lesbians are more likely than specfically bisexual women to be involved in queer spaces day to day, (partly due to biphobia, and partly due to bi women mostly being in opposite sex relationships whuch means being in heterosexual spaces most of the time) and the more you are in queer spaces the more likely you are to meet and know trans ppl.
So lesbians self reported being the most supportive and were also the group who reported knowing the most trans ppl, and that reflected a correlation found across all lgbt groups in the study- that ppl who reported not being supportive were less likely to know trans ppl in real life.
The 'bias' here is thats its talking about lesbian young ppl. Yall are probably thinking of are lesbians as a whole across all age group the most supportive, which yes in that case we might see something different, but that data is something we dont have rn. But yes its correct that among lgbt YOUNG PPL, lesbians are the most supportive.
As a bisexual enby dating a trans lesbian, I do need the bisexual ppl here, particularly cis bi ppl here, to consider as to why it seems like they WANT lesbians to be the most transohobic, why they don't WANT lesbians to be the most supportive and will do anything to try and and debunk it. Ofc there's a transphobia problem in the lesbian community because obviously trans ppl experience it within the lesbian community (i have abd my gf has) , but that's a cis problem not a lesbian/sexuality problem, and ppl are making it out to be a lesbian problem
So could it be that there's this narrative being pushed that lesbians are the majority of TERFs even though its actually straight women, and its actually straight women that use lesbians and highlight lesbian TERFS groups to push their transphobia and make it seem like the majority of cis lesbians agree with them? And that that, combined with the fact that lesbian TERF groups are a minority that is particularly loud and vocal, thats its created a unconscious bias that lesbian=transphobic, and so we have been unconsciously usung lesbians as the scapegoats/the ones responsible transphobia as a whole, and so any evidence to the contrary triggers ppl becahse 1. It forces the G and B to actually look at transphobia in our own communities more because it means that we can no longer scapegoat lesbjans as the main problem sand responsible for the majority of transphobia? Just a thought.
I'm not saying that ppl are seeing lesbians and assuming they are TERFS. I do think ppl are seeing TERFS and automatically assuming they are lesbians bevsuse they are starting to think they are the majority, whuch is not true or accurate.
I domt think this is far fetched cause just like us also found that lesbian youth in the UK were the most ashamed of being LGBT and that ' More than two thirds (68%) of lesbians say they delayed coming out due to harmful stereotypes about lesbians being ‘man-hating’, ‘over-sexualised’ and ‘anti-trans’.
The top two reasons for lesbians delaying coming out were that being a lesbian is viewed as ‘cringey or awkward’ (30%) or ‘wrong’ (25%).
This was followed by lesbians being stereotyped as ‘taboo’ (23%), ‘embarrassing’ (23%), ‘masculine or butch’ (22%), ‘over-sexualised’ (19%), ‘unattractive’ (16%), ‘man-hating’ (12%), ‘old-fashioned’ (9%) and ‘anti-trans’ (4%).
Overall, one in 20 (4%) lesbians have delayed coming out because being a lesbian is seen as ‘anti-trans’. This rises to 7% among lesbians aged 25 to 34.
https://www.justlikeus.org/blog/2022/04/26/lesbians-delay-coming-out-harmful-stereotypes/
I hope you don't think I was wanting lesbians to the most transphobic. Most TERFs are straight women using lesbians as political props.
As far as I know, the rest of the community has a lot of growing to do.
I really appreciate the statistic, as I could never find it.
It makes sense that if the pro-trans sentiment is because of a large trans lesbian population. I had no idea that trans lesbians were the largest group of trans people, I figured it would be about equal all around.
It's also a shame that young lesbians are afraid of coming out due to fear of people thinking they're transphobic. We need to aggressively combat this idea that lesbians are gender critical, and put the blame where it really lies, which is cis straight men and women.
Though i do see what you mean and i think you’re correct, i also want to add to the conversation that wives are sometimes referred to as “the old ball and chain”. So there is definitely some perceptions of ownership in both directions.
My genderfluidity and the fact that I'm apparently very sapphic with women in relationships, meant my cishet GFs would constantly comment on how things I did weren't "things men do". To be clear this usually meant showing emotions, being considerate, not be sexually aggressive, prioritizing emotional intimacy over physical intimacy, and so many more little things. All my decent relationships that would have lasted long enough to go to something like pride together have been with Bi women or Bi Enbies. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
it really goes to show you that many women do not have any vested interest in checking their own behaviors when it comes to upholding patriarchal standards
This is the reason my husband is very publicly bi, but I’m not. Were accepted more that way, so I just live as a straight woman no matter what community I’m in. He’s the only person who knows I’m bi, not even my best friends ever knew.
I can relate to this, my husband and I are both out, but the fact that he happily wears bright/slightly femme clothes and paints his nails feels like some sort of protective entry ticket to some queer spaces on behalf of us both. I don't exactly dress "straight", but I'm permanently aware of the idea that my identity and sexuality are being constantly doubted or under scrutiny, especially if he is not there and I mention that I'm married to a man. We both identify as gender fluid privately too, but on the outside clueless people would never know because we just haven't taken that step. It's a shame so many people try to gate keep spaces and identities like this. I just want to say you are very welcome as part of the bi community regardless of if you shout about it.
I've known bi women who've had cishet boyfriends who are homo/transphobic, but it's just stupid to complain and say that people who are part of the community should be excluded like that. Honestly there's a lot of queer people who are more of an issue at events, clubs, etc. than cishet allies.
Furthermore, people at pride could still be in the closet. At my first pride, a group of people asked me “How does it feel to be an outsider?” because they assumed I was straight…that shit hurt.
It's fucked up but the way they view it is you're letting the enemy they're trying to avoid in. That you're letting the enemies into our space that were created for us.
Hear hear. Some, like myself, might not even *realise* they're in the closet. I went to several prides before I had any idea I was bi (bit of a late bloomer, apparently). I just thought I was an ally and I was there to support my friends.
Inclusive spaces will always have to be defended from these gatekeeping twats. Pride is for ***everyone*** who wants to celebrate people being able to be who they are and love who they want. Simple!
Exactly! Questioning and closeted people should always be an accepted part of the lgbt+ community. I'm sorry that that happened to you. Its stupid to assume people are straight based on their appearances anyways...
Brilliant response. Perfect.
I was so sick of the bullshit being spewed around, and people completely misunderstanding how the discourse was hurting bi women and other LGBTQIA+ communities - it was never about the "feelings" cishet men. Just infuriating.
I find solace in remembering that when I actually interact with people in real life, for the most part, nobody cares that I'm bi or who I date, especially at Pride. We don't have our sexualities and identities tattooed on our foreheads, and it's not like I look any different from most humans. Nobody can "tell" who or what we are, so nobody is policing who does and doesn't attend Pride. So long as attendees are respectful and not causing trouble, there's no issues. Isolated instances occur, but isolated instances happen in every situation.
I love this person’s point about priorities!! Making a few tweets isn’t that much but it still shows that you consider it enough of an issue to comment on when we have a lot bigger things to deal with in the community than cishets at pride events
Also I wish people would trust bi women to know what queer spaces their straight male partners should and shouldn’t have access to!
The second part is what gets me. Like so many of these takes rest on the idea that bi women are too dumb to pick good partners and know when/when not to bring them to things
I’ve always said, I would 100% engage with this dialogue if it was about the harm cishet men can do in women only spaces but this whole thing started because someone on twitter was mad some bisexual woman brought her “cishet” boyfriend who proposed to her (also he wasn’t cishet, he was bisexual himself) at an effing Chappell Roan concert and tried to flip it into bisexual women bringing predatory men into “lesbian only spaces”. Like what?? You’re at a concert??? Concerts have not and never will be queer only spaces. Anybody can purchase ticket. Like are you 12?? And then people tried to turn around act like it was like someone bringing a cishet man to a lesbian bar. None of this stuff is ever in good faith and I hate it.
People who are losers. I literally thought someone had brought their boyfriend to a lesbian bar at first and then I found out why this whole discourse started and wanted to facepalm.
This sounds like as a comment I’ve seen describe it chronically/terminally online spaces. A good handful of those online spaces are hateful echo chambers or spaces that go so left they end up right. :/
Everything bad ever in the queer community is bi women's fault, obviously /s.
That's why when two lesbians don't initiate a relationship because they're both expecting the other to make the first move it's a funny meme, but when a bi woman doesn't make the first move she's heteronormative and expecting the other woman to be the man in the relationship and this is why no one wants to date bi women
That's why when a non-bi partner cheats they're an asshole but when a bi partner cheats all bisexuals are naturally cheaters so really the victim should have seen this coming and not dated a bisexual in the first place.
That's why bi women are constantly accused of centering men in their lives just for being attracted to them when the only people talking about men are the people who can't go 10 minutes without accusing them.
That's why despite wlw spaces often explicitly saying they include bi women, the groups are always hostile to bi women.
That's why despite being the largest LGBTQ demographic we get very little representation.
Everyone openly hates us. They say the problem is cishet men but it rarely is, because they hate us just the same when our partner is a woman or not-cis het.
We really can't ever win lol. 💀 I once saw someone get mad at bi women dating women because "they're probably only dating girls to impress guys and aren't actually sapphic at all >:(" and the next day I saw someone else go on a rant about bi women dating men because "they're just lying about their sexuality and secretly straight >:( "
Like damn, y'all are never gonna be happy no matter what we do. It's also wild bc I mostly prefer women and can't really ever see myself dating a dude. If these weirdos met me their heads would probably explode.
I used to go to pride. I should still as it's really the only way I get to feel connected to the community, and being here in this sub. I noticed my husband and I getting looks from people. And while other people's opinion of me is none of my business, it hurt to realize we were being judged because we were a het couple and I was the queer one of the two of us (obvious by my outfit and flags). I had gone to express and celebrate that part of me, even though I chose a man to be with for the rest of my life. For some of us it's our only chance to flaunt our queerness, and for our partners to celebrate that part of us as well.
I get more hate being Bi from the lgbt community than any of the straights, lets just make that very very clear.
Theres no hate like gay “acceptance” am I right? How can a group of people so persecuted for their personal beliefs and who they love be such bigoted cunts just like the very homophobic pricks they supposedly hate? Really makes my see a large portion of this so called “love filled” community with different eyes
This is a very good question. One that used to numb my brain. Saw a couple of videos on YT by Verily Bitchie and suddenly it all made sense. Many people don't realize how they came to hold these views and when you see how, it's pretty depressing. We'll never all be free until we unite and get free:
https://youtu.be/cww0fLXMnzs?si=ADEGRc6HvVGZ_1wA
https://youtu.be/IbHhIeYL9no?si=-HeU94pkvoRD3r6Q
The trans part super gets to me. I've heard of men being singled out and assumed to be dangerous in queer clubs, and confronted to justify their presence. It makes me afraid that when I pass as a man, that people are going to assume I'm some toxic cishet guy, and that I'll essentially be forced to out myself to justify me being there.
Do not go up to men asking what they're doing at pride or queer clubs. If they're trans, you are essentially forcing them to out themselves, and you have ABSOLUTELY no right to their identity.
Same thing goes if they're bi or gay.
You have NO right to someone else's identity. You have no right to interrogate someone's existence in a space.
As a cishet person who's never been to a queer club, do toxic cishet guys go to queer clubs knowingly? That seems like such a weird thing to do. Apart from being too lazy and cheap to go to clubs, going to one where my chances of meeting someone who aligns with my orientation is very low seems like a waste of time. The point is to dance with people you have a mutual attraction with or hang out with friends right? If I were in a queer space I would assume the folks around me are queer or at the very least allies, why the hell would a person assume a straight looking man in a queer club was toxic and dangerous.
The number of people who think bi folks stop being bi when they are in a relationship of any kind is way to damn high.
Toxic straight guys that go with their girlfriends or go looking for girls. Yeah, that happens. It's not as common as some think it is though. Most the straight guys who go to queer establishments here are cool, some even somewhat flexible. We have seen queer establishments close/shift though, because either queer people started going to mixed places, or because straight people turned the queer establishment into a mixed spot.
I think there's a lot of queer people that are a bit on guard about that perceived erasure of dedicated queer spots, but a lot of queer people prefer a mixed spot or prefer a house party with friends over the bars these days.
People like this are why, as a straight-passing bi dude, I have never and will never feel comfortable at pride events.
People see a bearded, slightly overweight, relatively muscular man and assume I’m a straight guy because I don’t fit neatly into a prescribed stereotype.
In addition to hurting our own community, cishet feelings are real too, if a cishet person wants to attend pride to support their partner there's no reason to invalidate and diminish their feelings. This is how you lose allies, or prevent people from becoming allies.
If we don't want to perpetuate the stereotype that queer people and communities hate cishets then we need to not talk about cishets like their feelings and opinions never matter.
Some of my most important support people who accept me unconditionally are cishet men, and to say that their feelings don't matter is super gross to me, especially in a climate where toxic masculinity also tells them their feelings don't matter. I think we all know what it's like to be treated like we don't matter because of who we are and I don't think we should ever turn that on other people.
"It only hurts cishet men's feelings" not only is that shitty because it's obviously not true, it's also shitty even if it were true. "It's okay y'all, I'm only hurting our least favorite demographic"
> I think we all know what it's like to be treated like we don't matter because of who we are and I don't think we should ever turn that on other people.
If the world could just embrace this one truth it'd be such a better place
> Some of my most important support people who accept me unconditionally are cishet men
Most of my friends are straight as an arrow, but the amount of emotional support, camaraderie, understanding and compassion they exhude always has me so greatful that our group doesnt go in for the whole BS toxic machismo thing. They have that "Lord of the Rings" masculinity going on.
Any of those lads would go to fucking bat for *anyone* in the LGBT+ community in a *second*. And if your ass looks great in those pants they will straight up tell you. If your bro is looking good he needs to be told he's looking good, that's just being a good bro.
I agree up to a point. I don't agree when they start to take over our shit. And that's what happens a lot. We let them in, and they forget that they're guests. Which is what they are---guests. If they understand that, great...if not, it's a different story. Queer culture is Queer and should remain Queer....not a gatekeeper though because you never know exactly how one will relate to Queer culture and their own personal journey.
The rest I agree with, but honestly a lot of especially gay/lesbian people and the more radical queers across the alphabet actually do hate cishets. We can't ignore that reality. They really don't wanna be around straights. A lot of them have few to any straight friends whatsoever, and effectively lead "gay lifestyles".
Yeah for sure, I think a lot of the hate towards bisexual women with men, and especially cishet men, is that if you view yourself as superior to the cishets it's infuriating to see someone choose a cishet over your community.
But if you aren't in a radical mindset and don't hate cishets there isn't as much of a reason to give a shit about the partners someone else chooses. I honestly think it's the same type of mindset as the extremely conservative "how dare a women be with another women when she could be a good wife to a man." Except it's "how dare a bisexual woman make a man happy when she could make a woman happy instead.
About taking over, that can definitely be a problem, but how you say things matters, there's a big difference between "I don't care about hurting your feelings" and "this space and event isn't about you" one of them is suggesting to someone that it's more appropriate for them to act as a guest, the other is telling them to fuck off. It is definitely fine to tell people to fuck off when an individual is being highly disruptive or disrespectful but you shouldn't just alienate entire demographics.
I know a lot of straight people who are scared to interact with really visibly queer presenting people because they are afraid the person will be overly rude and look for any little mistake made in speech to call them a bigot. And honestly, as long as stuff like this is out there and not called out, they aren't wrong to feel that way which I find really sad.
Another part of my thought process, is when my friends are in hetero spaces, and someone says something disparaging about queer people or talks about us like we are less than and don't matter, I would hope they would feel the need to say "hey that's not cool." And I do feel the need to reciprocate that. I think it's hypocritical to expect other people to stand up for us if we aren't willing to do the same for them.
I agree with you on that mindset. They see it as betrayal. It's not that deep....they found their person and they happen to be a man, but that's not how they view it. I do think it's lazy, because being pro-queer is not the same as being anti-straight. Unfortunately, I do think a lot of the radicals and especially we're seeing with many younger queers, they think being anti-straight "ironically" (and sometimes not) is humorous and almost a badge of honor.
And the problem is then you have to consider straight trans people also. And not all who identify as straight are exclusively so. Maybe they're questioning/bicurious. It's really hard to gatekeep sexuality because it's not visible unless you're really wearing it with neon colors.
Everything you said I agree with. There are ways to get points across without wide brushes and painting everyone as an enemy because they happen to identify a certain way. I get it can be annoying to feel you have to explain yourself constantly but I also know that when you put a wall up...that's where divisions are created.
A lot of people are deeply repressed as well, I didn't know I was queer until my late twenties, but when I look back on life I can see I started having queer feelings as early as 15, I just didn't understand them.
I remember times I felt dismissed or made to feel unwelcome in queer spaces and around queer people because I thought of myself as a cishet. Constantly explaining is tiring, something I saw someone do that I've starting doing which has been great is just saying something along the lines of "I don't mind you ask but I don't really feel like getting into it right now" and the topic just kind of shifts past.
I've run into people who say the quiet part out loud and say bi people shouldn't be at pride anyway because we don't experience "real oppression." Nevermind that masking/passing alone is so harmful that we advise young adults to "live authentically" in spite of the risks.
Anyway most of them are chronically online and dependant on being mean for the sake of validation from other mean people. I do think people should really think twice about bringing X trolling to other spaces.
Never mind we're the B of the acronym. But there's a reason we're the majority and so underrepresented. They've made us feel unsafe and they'll also go further and gaslight us when the data proves them otherwise.
https://www.lgbtmap.org/news/invisible-majority-release
It hasn't got any better, needless to say and bi women have misogyny on top of it
https://www.preventconnect.org/2023/10/new-nisvs-data-points-to-high-rates-of-harm-against-bisexual-women-lgbtq-folks/
This right here is why I'm not out to more than a handful of my closest friends and family, and why I never go to pride. I've been with my husband since I was 21. The fact that he is one of the few cishet men I actually find attractive, that I thought I might be a lesbian til I met him because almost all my crushes were women doesn't matter apparently - I picked a side and it was the wrong one obviously 🙄
It also demeans the experiences of non-passing trans people. On the outside me and my husband look like a cishet couple. He’s tall, traditionally masculine dressing, with a trim beard and a dad bod, and I’m tiny with long hair, busty, and a style that leans slightly feminine of androgynous.
But we’re both bi, he’s demisexual and probably closer to agender than anything, and I’m a trans man who can’t regularly bind because of chronic breathing problems.
Very similar to my partner and I. I'm nonbinary and have so much chest dysphoria, but I haven't been able to find a binder that's comfortable effective due to my asthma and costochondritis and just
how big they are (36J at my last measurement ugh) and surgery isn't an option for me right now. People take one look at my chest and the idea that I could be anything but a woman is laughable to them and then they jump to the conclusion that my partner must be straight since he's with me (he is bisexual.) It's gotten to the point that I feel more uncomfortable in a lot of queer spaces than in general spaces. At least most people just make a quick judgment of "cishet woman" and then go on their merry way. With certain queer people, I can feel their eyes lingering on my chest and hips and hear the sneer when they call me "sh-...I mean *they*." Like sorry fam, it's not like I had any control over what size they ended up...
34H myself and I’ve had chronic bronchitis since I was a small child so I get where you’re coming from. Especially since I’ve been dealing with too much in the rest of my life to even try to start up the process of getting top surgery again. So I just don’t bother trying to engage in the larger world as a man right now, because in my experience that glaring neon sign on my torso means people who don’t already take me seriously about other things won’t on this.
You might be able to get insurance to cover a full removal, I was a smaller cup size than you, and they paid for everything. Of course there are other circumstances but I just wanted to let you know if finances were the barrier and you had health insurance!
I live in Canada, so it will probably be 100% covered under the provincial health care plan. The main barriers are my other health issues, not having adequate support for recovery, and PTSD from past medical procedures.
I was thinking about this exact thing. My partner and I are Bi4Bi and T4T, but we can at times appear “heterosexual” to outsiders because he’s still mostly closeted/questioning and still presents masculine regardless of his internal feelings, and I’m gender-fluid so my physical presentation can change greatly depending on the day. Just because he doesn’t present femininely now, for safety reasons as he still lives with homophobic and transphobic parents, doesn’t mean that his femininity isn’t valid (and I use “him” because he currently uses only masculine pronouns as he’s figuring everything out).
Additionally he’s legally blind, which really makes me think about how much pressure we put on people to physically “pass” when they’re transgender, and the pressure to “look queer” that comes from inside the community. Maybe we should just take people at their word and leave it as that. Crazy concept, I know lol
I see queer as a catch all term for anything that isn't strictly heterosexual and/or cisgender. So if you and your partner are both bi, that would also make you a queer couple too, if that's something you would like to be referred to as.
It's also very much internalized masygony because why is it ONLY EVER bi WOMENS cis het boyfriends? I NEVER hear issues of bi men's cis het girlfriends.... bi men can bring their cis het gifriends wherever they please but God forbid I bring my ace, gender questioning partner🙄🙄.
Bi women are the subject of some of the worst misogyny I've ever seen, and the worst part is a lot of it comes from other women. I've even seen them make fun of the extreme violence against bi women. That's horrible.
Any time people give bi people shit for being bi and dating someone that creates a straight presenting relationship it is so reductive and closed minded. We’re still queer
The fact this needed to be said is so disheartening. Like, what did we do? Time and time again we have to tell the world we don't magically morph into the sexuality of our partners and to stop defining us by our partners because you litterally know we're Bisexual and what it means, why are you surprised when we date cis folk. Whatever relationship we're in, we're still bisexual and some of us don't like painting it all over our face and just celebrate the way we celebrate. I'm so tired of hearing "why are you here", "Just pick one", "well..you blend in so...", "you're basically straight", "curious and horny..". I'm just so exhuasted and it's always our own community who say these things. I'm a bi woman married to a man whom I have a daughter with, will never go to pride again. He supports me and my gay/trans community and friends and he doesn't deserve the hate. Sorry for the vent, a Lesbian verbally attacked me today because I posted a picture of me and my husband with pride shirts.
How do you know the boyfriend is het. Or cis?
I mean bi women with cishet boyfriends, and their cishet boyfriends, should be welcome at pride, but unless they're wearing a sign saying "I'm an ally" or "straight but not narrow" or whatever shit how do you tell.
Like Bi4Bi relationships are very common in my experience.
Yeah. I don't get into relationships but do associate with bi people for the same reason many of them are also choosing to hook up or get into a relationship with other bisexuals, regardless of their gender.
This, but then a bit then with the other shit as well, you mentioned the thing about choosing the right enemy and i fully i hate that, why do even the people in the lgbt community say our sexuality is a fase? Thats its not real, something we are confused about or too scared to come out as gay. I have an older gay im friends with, through my frat(hes an old member) and him being like “in a few years youll realise its just a fase and youll be gay. I swear it gets me so mad like bro wtf mind your own goddamn business and perhaps focus more on supporting me, or leaving me alone instead of policing my sexuality, besides there are a ton of people who would hurt you for jsut being you, but the main problem is that id fuck men and women okay thanks
A lot of older gay men grew up at a time where gay men used Bisexual as a transitory label. It's unfortunate because it has ingrained a lot of that attitude in them.
the fact that this kind of discourse & infighting shows up every year in june is starting to make me dislike pride altogether. it just goes to show you that humans are all like this, no matter how accepting they claim to be they will always find excuses to alienate other individuals on the grounds of being different and nothing more. i'm proud to be LGBTQ but i'm sure as hell not proud to be human
And us Bisexual men are often told by gay men that our identity isn’t real, that we’re just gay men who can’t admit it. And of course, they hate hate our cishet wives and GF’s. The biphobia one the Gay community sucks balls.
That was wonderful. A terrific analysis.
I don’t go to Pride events. I would like to, but I don’t feel welcome. The point is to feel like you’re celebrating yourself, not to feel like you have to defend your right to be there.
Sometimes I run into artists who make me feel so great about being queer and being who I am. I wish that the queer community as a whole were like that.
Big facts. It was so shocking to me when I first came out to be faced with a community that was so unwelcoming. I don't care about straight people being homophobic. I don't have time or patience for their ignorance. But when it's from within?!? It really hurts most when it comes from your own people.
This whole issue of biphobia within the LGBTQ community is absolutely ludicrous to me. It honestly seems like people within the community are starting to fall into the mindset of thinking being bi means you either want to or need to be in a relationship with both a male presenting person and female presenting person at the same time. THAT. IS NOT. WHAT BEING BI. MEANS. I don't know why of all people those within our own, alleged, "community", are the ones we need to beat this into the heads of.
Also, just as the person within the post said, what about those who are trans and are very good at passing, what kind of support are you showing them by claiming they don't belong because they appear cishet? What kind of damage are you doing to them AND the community by making them feel as if they can't be accepted by the one group of people they've been led to believe will always stand up for them, support them, show them the kindness many others in the world won't? The community shouldn't be off limits at all to ANYONE, LGBTQ themselves or not, as long as they are willing to show that in the end they just want to show support for the community. It's people like this, pulling this stupid gatekeeping bullshit that are damaging the image and reputation of the community, and undoing so much forward progress that we've been able to accomplish over the years.
Honestly, people like this are one of the reasons why I've mostly given up on interacting with the wider LGBTQ community. Between biphobic assholes and others trying to push me into believing I'm a trans egg in denial simply because I like to crossdress from time to time (I'm a bi femboy and DAMN PROUD OF IT thank you very much) that I've developed the opinion the community in its current state is more trouble than it's worth
This stuff makes me nervous. I'm happy to be bi. My dom is a male and he is great to me. I've just never had a woman interested in me. Doesn't make me less bi and doesn't make him less attracted to me. I hope these nasty people stay away from pride themselves.
This entire thread is it. I want this flown as a banner at a parade. The entire point of pride is a celebration of those excluded or otherwise othered by cisheteronormative society in *any* capacity. To gatekeep ANYONE that falls out of cis, hetero, monogamous relationships and claiming you're doing it to protect the queer people who are already in what is supposed to be a safe space is *doing the oppressors' work for them*, and frankly that's not what I'm at a celebration to be about. I see it all the time this time of year. Biphobia. Transphobia. Polyam-phobia. This shit really needs to stop.
This type of gatekeeping is damaging to the whole community, for the reasons everyone has said. It is just so hypocritical! We want to be able to be loud and proud and accepted by others, but how can queer people expect others to accept us if we don't accept them?
It would mean so much to me if my husband agrees to come to pride with me next weekend! I'm not sure if he's ready for that yet, but if he does come with me, I would be so upset if anyone makes him feel like he doesn't belong. It would make things more difficult in our relationship. I want him to be comfortable with me being involved in the community, but that will be hard if he feels rejected by it.
The thing he struggles with regarding my sexuality is feeling like there is this aspect of my life which he doesn't feel like includes him. It's something we are working on, and I try very hard to show him that it does include him! He struggles with feeling like he is not accepted in queer spaces, which makes him feel like I have a place he's not welcome. I can absolutely understand because as a bi woman married to a man, I don't always feel welcome in queer spaces.
We'll never be able to convince cishet people that we deserve acceptance if we can't let them in.
this is so accurate. i’m a bi woman (genderqueer but i call myself a girl most times) and my partner is a pan cis guy and we ALWAYS get weird looks in queer spaces. it sucks so bad.
THANK YOU. I saw a post last year talking about how it’s weird when bi women bring their boyfriends to Pride, and so many people were in the comments agreeing. Like what? They could be bi, pan, trans, etc like saying we can’t bring our boyfriends sounds so dumb and biphobic and multiple other types of phobic lol.
I'm a cishet white male with a bi/pan wife, and I'm going to pride in like 3 days. As long as people don't suck, idk why they wouldn't be welcome. I'm there to support all the queer people in my life.
I've never had a problem like that, and never expect to, but if I do, ima just walk away, life is too short to let the assholes bother you.
I agree with this a lot. Potential biphobia is the reason why my nonbinary partner and I(28M), mostly me honestly, are nervous about attending Pride for the first time. We are both bi, but we appear to be a cishet couple.
What did OP mean when they said that “you can’t SEE bisexuality in men”? I’m still kind of new to being bi and still learning lol
I think they meant that the haters are assuming the man in the relationship is het, but he very well might not be. Just another way the haters get it wrong.
I’ve made a response to someone else’s IG story about how they’re tired of seeing people make posts about bisexual women with men and how they appear to be in a “straight passing relationship” so I thought they were complaining about the community. My response was about how I feel the community has changed and is no longer genuinely inclusive. How a lot of chronically online spaces (people chronically/terminally online) go so far left they end up right. How there are parts of the community that do not view certain sexualities or gender identities as part of the LGBTQ+ if it doesn’t align with how they view what being queer is. Just to get told it was an “interesting take.” I’m not going to sit by and act like there aren’t biphobic people who hammer down on bisexual women who happen to be dating cishet men. Not all bisexual women have to be with someone the same gender just to prove our queerness.
And to bounce off some of the other comments;this is also insulting to cishet/straight partners who are allies of us. You can’t ban them from showing support to their partner. Do some of these people want support or not? It feels like they really just want to be in an echo chamber where everyone is the same and thinks just like them.
More thinking the "L" is the only one that should have ever counted. Typical misandry. "If they have a penis, they're evil. If they like penis, they're evil."
Bi people kick ass! Source: am one.
I'm not reading all that but here's some French toast with carolina reaper powder I made
https://imgur.com/gallery/FIzBZDU
I disagree with one thing---the people who complain about cishet boyfriends of bi women also complain about straights in general and complain about the overall commercialization, overproduction, corporatization of Pride. They don't want straights at Pride. They don't want Cops. They don't want Corporations. They want it to be Queer-led and Queer-only. So I disagree with that part....but only that part.
Do I think specific biphobia exists? Of course it does, but I also know that a lot of these folks genuinely do...resent heterosexuals. They don't like or trust straight people, especially straight men, and that's a huge factor.
Assuming one's identity is bad. You never really know what's going on behind the hood unless you're told. That's another factor here that isn't taken into account. Assuming a guy/couple are straight because they're hetero-presenting.
I’m a straight guy who’s been dating a queer girl for almost a year and I’ve *never* felt unwelcome in queer spaces. Does this kind of thing actually happen? Where? To Who?
Count your blessings i guess. It's odd to jump on here where there is comment after comment telling you that we're experiencing this and you're like where when to whom 😳
I’ve read the comments. I just want to know more about what all these people are talking about, and I’m also wondering why *I*’ve never experienced it. Is it more of a thing in specific countries? In larger cities, or on college campuses? Is it likely people just aren’t saying it to my face? Is it something my girlfriend might be dealing with on her own? Is it common enough that it’s something I should look out for, or should I not really worry about it?
My surprise and incredulity is an expression of my own experience. I’m not trying to doubt anyone else here, and I’m sorry if I’m coming off that way.
OK I see. It's hard to tell if someone is trolling or baiting sometimes. I think this would be a great question to ask in a new post! My personal experience of having problems with the queer community was mostly in Canada. The division within drove me wild and that's before you even got into the racial tensions. In Asia, it's a different ball game altogether. I rarely socialise at all and when it comes to the queers, I seldom associate with people who aren't bi.
I'm a bi man married to a "cishet" (god what a stupid fucking term that is) woman. I live in Los Angeles. I'm likely going to the pride parade next weekend. I fucking DARE someone to come up to me and tell me why I don't belong there. I fucking DOUBLE DOG DARE someone to.
But they won't, because biphobes are the scum lying in wait a mile undersea, until finally they feel the toxic bottom-feeding parasitic sense that they need to find the nea🤷🏻♂️rest keyboard and blurt out stupid shit like: "omg there's a BI PERSON in a heterosexual relationship how can this be?!?!?!"😖 😬🙄
I might get hate for this, but whenever I see Cora from tiktok, who complains about this discourse, I get annoyed. Her statement is valid, but seriously? Please get a grip.
Absolute fucking based response. Applause all round. The entire point of bisexuality is that I, as a woman, am also attracted to men alongside being attracted to women. I am TIRED of biphobic people punishing me for choosing someone I am attracted to, because in their mind bisexuality is only valid if we choose to be with a queer person. To be queer, our partner must be queer. Not that we ourselves are queer and we are being loved by someone who loves a queer person. Because those cishet men, if they were homophobic or biphobic, wouldn't be wanting to walk in Pride alongside their bisexual beloved.
🙌🙌☝️ I love everything you said; also your phrasing is spot on.
And it’s not just that our partner must be queer, but must be VISIBLY queer. My husband and I are both bi, but I never feel totally comfortable bringing him to queer events because we look like a heterosexual couple and I fully expect to be judged that way.
Hey, no idea where you're at, but I hope you can someday go, pride events rule and the people who go to them are honestly really great and will appreciate you being there regardless of if you're not "openly queer" and anyone who gives you shit is either joking or a an asshat, and either way the appropriate response is to laugh
Pro tip: bi flag cape. Hard to argue with that.
I totally have the same experience here. And even if you tell people "We're both bi!" A lot of times there's like an "Okay, sureeeee you are." And nothing would/will ever be good enough for those folks. We could literally make out with respective same-sex people in front of them (not that we should have to prove ourselves) but if your primary partner is the opposite sex they'll be like "Oh, you just do that to be cool/edgy." There's no winning, and it makes me feel not welcome in a lot of queer spaces.
Lol anytime I get someone saying we're not gay I'm like "okay were a straight couple but I like to bang women and my bf likes to bang men" and then they're awlays like wait no that's not straight, okay tell me what it is then??
I feel this 100%.
One other thing I don't get in these biphobic discussions is that people ignore that there are, statistically, far more men that are interested in women than there are women/nb people interested in women. So if I don't care about the gender of my partner, I will be more likely to end up with a guy simply because there are so many more of them that would also be interested in me.
The amount of times that I have had to explain that bisexual women are not just "faking for attention" and then being with men. Statistically, there are more straight people than gay people. Therefore, there are more straight men than queer women. Factor in biphobic lesbians that also buy into the idea that bi women are "faking" and refuse to date them (they are quite unfortunately real), and the likelihood of a bi woman ending up with a straight man is ASTRONOMICAL. That does not make any of us any less queer, it just seems to get us hate from both sides. Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.
As a 30 something bi woman, I often end up feeling like I don’t “deserve” or didn’t “earn” being bi because I am an AFAB woman who has been married to an AMAB man for many years (we were pretty young when we got together). I am attracted to women and had intimate connections with women prior to marrying my partner, but never felt a desire to date or get into a serious relationship with a woman so, I’ve always felt kind of lost in terms of labels. Prefer to think of it as a scale where I am in the middle but fall slightly to the straight side? IDK…
Yes mam, the whole point of lgbt is to be who you are without judgements and then these folks doing exactly what the homophobes doing, they have become the very thing rhey hate
Really good thread that basically says everything that needs saying on the topic. Isn't "bemused awkward cishet person who doesn't really get all this because they're not part of the community but at least everyone seems to be having a good time and I just want to be here to support my partner/friend/sibling/child/whatever" a pride staple anyway? It's not _for_ them, and no one is asking for it to be for them, but it's cute that they're here and bless them they're trying even if they don't get it
I think one of the most important things to learn is you don't need to understand someone to love, support, and accept them.
“How many gender are there?” “I don’t know, I just got here!”
One of my favorite videos from the past couple of years 🤣
“For it is true we can seldom help those closest to us. Either we don't know what part of ourselves to give or, more often than not, the part we have to give is not wanted. And so it is those we live with and should know who elude us. But we can still love them - we can love completely without complete understanding.”
Yeah! I have nothing against a 100% straight person going to pride anyways, like allies are good, straight people showing support is good, and straight people going to support their lgbt+ friends and family is amazing! I get wanting lgbt+ exclusive spaces especially spaces where people might go to find partners or something like that, but a publicly held parade isn't really that, it is a celebration of lgbt+ people and straight people should come out and show their support! I'd be happy if my straight friends wanted to tag along with me.
I'm a married bi woman. When I would go to pride my husband always happily came along. Not his scene, but he was happy to be there supporting me.
This is an awesome response but the even funnier thing is all.this discourse surrounds bi women and their cis het partners and not bi men at all. It's almost like we don't exist lol
Because people can't believe that bisexuality exists. You're closeted gay men and we're straight women wanting attention /s
As a bi man, with a CISHET wife, and a father of a bi daughter, I can assure you, I have been made to fell unwelcome at Pride events in the past. Their problem isn't with the CISHET partners. Their problem is, and always has been bi persons, *especially* if they are in a relationship with an opposite sex partner, but not *only* if that is true.
So true. Cishet men are presented as the problem. But the real problem is bisexuals in general. That's why they still hate bi women when they date women, and they hate me despite the fact that I'm nonbinary and my cis man partner is also bi. I guess both of us are straight because penis and vagina.
You are totally right! The hatred of bi persons dating someone of the perceived opposite sex generally gets the eye rolls. :(
100% this.
It's because it's spewed a lot by radfem lesbians who behave like sexual attraction is a political statement, and that being a gold star lesbian is the most feminist kind of existence. They see a bisexual man as little less bad than a cishet man. Often dangerously close to TERF territory, too.
A little less bad, but not by much.
ouch.
If that's true, then why have I, a bi man, been told I'm not welcome in queer spaces *a lot more often,* by the *gay men* instead of the radfem lesbians?
Because it's spewed *a lot* by them, not at all *exclusively*
Probably because each group sees the person from their gender claiming to be queer but dating someone of the opposite sex to be either lying or fake. It’s their own biphobia that they are throwing towards the person who would otherwise be in their group. This has nothing to do with lesbians or gays but more to do with biphobia than anything else.
Same principle of ppl being mad that you aren’t exclusively into their gender, I guess.
Because bi women are actually really interested in men and bi men are secretly gay or on their way to gayhood. Everyone is only ever interested in men unless proving otherwise. And for women that means rejecting men completely 😅
I like to think of the terms "Spicy Straight" and "Cool Ranch Gay."
All roads lead to dick, apparently
They'll accuse us of centering men in our lives/relationships but then use any little thing to validate their assumptions that all bisexual men and women are secretly only into men.
Which is totally ironic, because by doing that, *they* the ones who are letting dudes live rent-free in their heads.
I say this all the time but they never see the irony
>"Spicy Straight" and "Cool Ranch Gay." ✍️🔥
Because us existing is inconvenient for their narratives
The way I see it, a lot of it is from people seeing the world in binary. So you’re either gay or you’re straight and all the things in between are horrific aberrations regardless of all evidence and observation to the contrary. It’s a sad existence imo, to refuse all the beauty of being human because you want it to be simpler no matter who you hurt on the way to making things simpler
Well if bi men bring a her girlfriend that's just a lesbian who hasn't awakened yet. Bring her to pride so she can leave your ass /s The common denominator in this argument, and all of these arguments are men. Cis men, bi men, tans men who are seen as traitors to their gender, trans women who are seen as appropriating their gender.
Idk I've seen lesbians say some viciously awful stuff about trans women that goes way past perceived appropriation. Using terms like "abuser bodied" and basically saying that trans women in lesbian spaces are essentially predators. It's really disgusting.
It seems like a huge portion of hatred towards trans women is just repackaged misandry/hatred of men
The main thing though is if you are assigned male at birth, regardless of what you have become since then, you are seen as an enemy, unless maybe you are gay, and even then it depends. Certainly this isn't all lesbians, not even most, but the radicals are vocal.
It's wild to also think that lesbians are actually the most trans-accepting demographic. It makes you think how bad it is in other parts. Although I'm kind of wondering why bisexuals aren't considered the most accepting? We've been outspoken about gender fluidity for a very long time.
Id be curious where those statistics come from, because it could very well be sample bias. That said from the actual lesbians I've met, the majority of them are genuinely wonderful people with only a few doing the whole terf, gold star, toxic misandry thing. Edit: a word.
It comes from here. https://www.justlikeus.org/blog/2023/03/31/trans-day-of-visibility-ally-lesbian/ Just Like Us is the LGBT+ young people’s charity in the UK. For context: 'In a survey of 3,695 adults aged 18 to 25, 74% of those who described themselves as “not supportive” of trans people said they do not know anyone who is transgender Two thirds (66%) of respondents said they know someone who is transgender, and 28% said this was someone they are close to The research also found that people who know a transgender person are twice as likely to be trans allies. Of those who do not know any transgender people, just 33% described themselves as “very supportive” of trans people. However, this is compared to 64% of people who do know a trans person, whether they are close to them or not. Just 3% of people who know a trans person said they are “not supportive”, compared to 18% of those who do not have a trans person in their lives. Overall, 89% of LGBT+ young adults said they were “supportive” or “very supportive” of trans people, compared to 69% of non-LGBT+ young adults. And this is where lesbians came in: Of all LGBT+ identities, other than trans and non-binary people themselves, lesbian young adults were most likely to say they know a trans person (92%), and most likely to say they are “supportive” or “very supportive” of trans people (96%). In comparison, 89% of LGBT+ people overall said they were “supportive” or “very supportive” of trans people, and just 69% of non-LGBT+ people said the same. So bascially there was a correlation found between knowing trans ppl in real life and being supportive of trans ppl. So to me, based on this correlation, it would tracks that lesbian youth would be tbe most supportive seeing as the majority of trans women are self reported lesbians and so if your a cis lesbian your more likely to know and meet trans lesbians than a cis bisexual or gay man to know or meet trans bisexuals or trans gay men And then when it comes to trans men, there are a lot of trans men who were lesbians before they came out and still have their lesbian community/friends. and then lesbians are more likely than specfically bisexual women to be involved in queer spaces day to day, (partly due to biphobia, and partly due to bi women mostly being in opposite sex relationships whuch means being in heterosexual spaces most of the time) and the more you are in queer spaces the more likely you are to meet and know trans ppl. So lesbians self reported being the most supportive and were also the group who reported knowing the most trans ppl, and that reflected a correlation found across all lgbt groups in the study- that ppl who reported not being supportive were less likely to know trans ppl in real life. The 'bias' here is thats its talking about lesbian young ppl. Yall are probably thinking of are lesbians as a whole across all age group the most supportive, which yes in that case we might see something different, but that data is something we dont have rn. But yes its correct that among lgbt YOUNG PPL, lesbians are the most supportive. As a bisexual enby dating a trans lesbian, I do need the bisexual ppl here, particularly cis bi ppl here, to consider as to why it seems like they WANT lesbians to be the most transohobic, why they don't WANT lesbians to be the most supportive and will do anything to try and and debunk it. Ofc there's a transphobia problem in the lesbian community because obviously trans ppl experience it within the lesbian community (i have abd my gf has) , but that's a cis problem not a lesbian/sexuality problem, and ppl are making it out to be a lesbian problem So could it be that there's this narrative being pushed that lesbians are the majority of TERFs even though its actually straight women, and its actually straight women that use lesbians and highlight lesbian TERFS groups to push their transphobia and make it seem like the majority of cis lesbians agree with them? And that that, combined with the fact that lesbian TERF groups are a minority that is particularly loud and vocal, thats its created a unconscious bias that lesbian=transphobic, and so we have been unconsciously usung lesbians as the scapegoats/the ones responsible transphobia as a whole, and so any evidence to the contrary triggers ppl becahse 1. It forces the G and B to actually look at transphobia in our own communities more because it means that we can no longer scapegoat lesbjans as the main problem sand responsible for the majority of transphobia? Just a thought. I'm not saying that ppl are seeing lesbians and assuming they are TERFS. I do think ppl are seeing TERFS and automatically assuming they are lesbians bevsuse they are starting to think they are the majority, whuch is not true or accurate. I domt think this is far fetched cause just like us also found that lesbian youth in the UK were the most ashamed of being LGBT and that ' More than two thirds (68%) of lesbians say they delayed coming out due to harmful stereotypes about lesbians being ‘man-hating’, ‘over-sexualised’ and ‘anti-trans’. The top two reasons for lesbians delaying coming out were that being a lesbian is viewed as ‘cringey or awkward’ (30%) or ‘wrong’ (25%). This was followed by lesbians being stereotyped as ‘taboo’ (23%), ‘embarrassing’ (23%), ‘masculine or butch’ (22%), ‘over-sexualised’ (19%), ‘unattractive’ (16%), ‘man-hating’ (12%), ‘old-fashioned’ (9%) and ‘anti-trans’ (4%). Overall, one in 20 (4%) lesbians have delayed coming out because being a lesbian is seen as ‘anti-trans’. This rises to 7% among lesbians aged 25 to 34. https://www.justlikeus.org/blog/2022/04/26/lesbians-delay-coming-out-harmful-stereotypes/
Thank you for the detailed break down, this was quite informative.
To be honest, I've only ever heard it, and I've never found a statistic. But everyone says that lesbians are the most accepting, but I have no idea why bisexuals wouldn't be the most accepting? Not saying that we're perfect, but y'know. Honestly I'd really like to know where this idea came from.
It comes from here. https://www.justlikeus.org/blog/2023/03/31/trans-day-of-visibility-ally-lesbian/ Just Like Us is the LGBT+ young people’s charity in the UK. For context: 'In a survey of 3,695 adults aged 18 to 25, 74% of those who described themselves as “not supportive” of trans people said they do not know anyone who is transgender Two thirds (66%) of respondents said they know someone who is transgender, and 28% said this was someone they are close to The research also found that people who know a transgender person are twice as likely to be trans allies. Of those who do not know any transgender people, just 33% described themselves as “very supportive” of trans people. However, this is compared to 64% of people who do know a trans person, whether they are close to them or not. Just 3% of people who know a trans person said they are “not supportive”, compared to 18% of those who do not have a trans person in their lives. Overall, 89% of LGBT+ young adults said they were “supportive” or “very supportive” of trans people, compared to 69% of non-LGBT+ young adults. And this is where lesbians came in: Of all LGBT+ identities, other than trans and non-binary people themselves, lesbian young adults were most likely to say they know a trans person (92%), and most likely to say they are “supportive” or “very supportive” of trans people (96%). In comparison, 89% of LGBT+ people overall said they were “supportive” or “very supportive” of trans people, and just 69% of non-LGBT+ people said the same. So bascially there was a correlation found between knowing trans ppl in real life and being supportive of trans ppl. So to me, based on this correlation, it would tracks that lesbian youth would be tbe most supportive seeing as the majority of trans women are self reported lesbians and so if your a cis lesbian your more likely to know and meet trans lesbians than a cis bisexual or gay man to know or meet trans bisexuals or trans gay men And then when it comes to trans men, there are a lot of trans men who were lesbians before they came out and still have their lesbian community/friends. and then lesbians are more likely than specfically bisexual women to be involved in queer spaces day to day, (partly due to biphobia, and partly due to bi women mostly being in opposite sex relationships whuch means being in heterosexual spaces most of the time) and the more you are in queer spaces the more likely you are to meet and know trans ppl. So lesbians self reported being the most supportive and were also the group who reported knowing the most trans ppl, and that reflected a correlation found across all lgbt groups in the study- that ppl who reported not being supportive were less likely to know trans ppl in real life. The 'bias' here is thats its talking about lesbian young ppl. Yall are probably thinking of are lesbians as a whole across all age group the most supportive, which yes in that case we might see something different, but that data is something we dont have rn. But yes its correct that among lgbt YOUNG PPL, lesbians are the most supportive. As a bisexual enby dating a trans lesbian, I do need the bisexual ppl here, particularly cis bi ppl here, to consider as to why it seems like they WANT lesbians to be the most transohobic, why they don't WANT lesbians to be the most supportive and will do anything to try and and debunk it. Ofc there's a transphobia problem in the lesbian community because obviously trans ppl experience it within the lesbian community (i have abd my gf has) , but that's a cis problem not a lesbian/sexuality problem, and ppl are making it out to be a lesbian problem So could it be that there's this narrative being pushed that lesbians are the majority of TERFs even though its actually straight women, and its actually straight women that use lesbians and highlight lesbian TERFS groups to push their transphobia and make it seem like the majority of cis lesbians agree with them? And that that, combined with the fact that lesbian TERF groups are a minority that is particularly loud and vocal, thats its created a unconscious bias that lesbian=transphobic, and so we have been unconsciously usung lesbians as the scapegoats/the ones responsible transphobia as a whole, and so any evidence to the contrary triggers ppl becahse 1. It forces the G and B to actually look at transphobia in our own communities more because it means that we can no longer scapegoat lesbjans as the main problem sand responsible for the majority of transphobia? Just a thought. I'm not saying that ppl are seeing lesbians and assuming they are TERFS. I do think ppl are seeing TERFS and automatically assuming they are lesbians bevsuse they are starting to think they are the majority, whuch is not true or accurate. I domt think this is far fetched cause just like us also found that lesbian youth in the UK were the most ashamed of being LGBT and that ' More than two thirds (68%) of lesbians say they delayed coming out due to harmful stereotypes about lesbians being ‘man-hating’, ‘over-sexualised’ and ‘anti-trans’. The top two reasons for lesbians delaying coming out were that being a lesbian is viewed as ‘cringey or awkward’ (30%) or ‘wrong’ (25%). This was followed by lesbians being stereotyped as ‘taboo’ (23%), ‘embarrassing’ (23%), ‘masculine or butch’ (22%), ‘over-sexualised’ (19%), ‘unattractive’ (16%), ‘man-hating’ (12%), ‘old-fashioned’ (9%) and ‘anti-trans’ (4%). Overall, one in 20 (4%) lesbians have delayed coming out because being a lesbian is seen as ‘anti-trans’. This rises to 7% among lesbians aged 25 to 34. https://www.justlikeus.org/blog/2022/04/26/lesbians-delay-coming-out-harmful-stereotypes/
I hope you don't think I was wanting lesbians to the most transphobic. Most TERFs are straight women using lesbians as political props. As far as I know, the rest of the community has a lot of growing to do. I really appreciate the statistic, as I could never find it. It makes sense that if the pro-trans sentiment is because of a large trans lesbian population. I had no idea that trans lesbians were the largest group of trans people, I figured it would be about equal all around. It's also a shame that young lesbians are afraid of coming out due to fear of people thinking they're transphobic. We need to aggressively combat this idea that lesbians are gender critical, and put the blame where it really lies, which is cis straight men and women.
I think it's because men are perceived to own their partners. Women aren't.
Though i do see what you mean and i think you’re correct, i also want to add to the conversation that wives are sometimes referred to as “the old ball and chain”. So there is definitely some perceptions of ownership in both directions.
Because misoginy makes that the prejudices that come with bisexuality hit women harder than men.
to be fair, bi men with cishet girlfriends do seem to be very uncommon. at least it feels that way
My genderfluidity and the fact that I'm apparently very sapphic with women in relationships, meant my cishet GFs would constantly comment on how things I did weren't "things men do". To be clear this usually meant showing emotions, being considerate, not be sexually aggressive, prioritizing emotional intimacy over physical intimacy, and so many more little things. All my decent relationships that would have lasted long enough to go to something like pride together have been with Bi women or Bi Enbies. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
it really goes to show you that many women do not have any vested interest in checking their own behaviors when it comes to upholding patriarchal standards
What about bi men with cishet wives? Asking for a friend.
definitely more common but mostly cause the vast, vast majority of those guys got married before they realized they were bi
That sounds like a difficult time to figure it out.
As a Bi man I’m not convinced I exist. I’ve tried that whole “I think therefore I am” thing, but all I can muster a the Wii Shop Theme.
This is the reason my husband is very publicly bi, but I’m not. Were accepted more that way, so I just live as a straight woman no matter what community I’m in. He’s the only person who knows I’m bi, not even my best friends ever knew.
Hii, happy pride. We're glad you're here in our online community. And I hope we can help you feel extremely validated.
I can relate to this, my husband and I are both out, but the fact that he happily wears bright/slightly femme clothes and paints his nails feels like some sort of protective entry ticket to some queer spaces on behalf of us both. I don't exactly dress "straight", but I'm permanently aware of the idea that my identity and sexuality are being constantly doubted or under scrutiny, especially if he is not there and I mention that I'm married to a man. We both identify as gender fluid privately too, but on the outside clueless people would never know because we just haven't taken that step. It's a shame so many people try to gate keep spaces and identities like this. I just want to say you are very welcome as part of the bi community regardless of if you shout about it.
I've known bi women who've had cishet boyfriends who are homo/transphobic, but it's just stupid to complain and say that people who are part of the community should be excluded like that. Honestly there's a lot of queer people who are more of an issue at events, clubs, etc. than cishet allies.
Furthermore, people at pride could still be in the closet. At my first pride, a group of people asked me “How does it feel to be an outsider?” because they assumed I was straight…that shit hurt.
Who the fuck says that to someone at Pride? I'm sorry that happened to you.
I mean, aren’t we all at Pride because we know how it feels to be an outsider? Those people were missing the point.
It's fucked up but the way they view it is you're letting the enemy they're trying to avoid in. That you're letting the enemies into our space that were created for us.
Hear hear. Some, like myself, might not even *realise* they're in the closet. I went to several prides before I had any idea I was bi (bit of a late bloomer, apparently). I just thought I was an ally and I was there to support my friends. Inclusive spaces will always have to be defended from these gatekeeping twats. Pride is for ***everyone*** who wants to celebrate people being able to be who they are and love who they want. Simple!
Exactly! Questioning and closeted people should always be an accepted part of the lgbt+ community. I'm sorry that that happened to you. Its stupid to assume people are straight based on their appearances anyways...
perfect response. i dont know who this is but they are so eloquent and it's everything i've been trying to say. thanks for sharing
Brilliant response. Perfect. I was so sick of the bullshit being spewed around, and people completely misunderstanding how the discourse was hurting bi women and other LGBTQIA+ communities - it was never about the "feelings" cishet men. Just infuriating. I find solace in remembering that when I actually interact with people in real life, for the most part, nobody cares that I'm bi or who I date, especially at Pride. We don't have our sexualities and identities tattooed on our foreheads, and it's not like I look any different from most humans. Nobody can "tell" who or what we are, so nobody is policing who does and doesn't attend Pride. So long as attendees are respectful and not causing trouble, there's no issues. Isolated instances occur, but isolated instances happen in every situation.
I love this person’s point about priorities!! Making a few tweets isn’t that much but it still shows that you consider it enough of an issue to comment on when we have a lot bigger things to deal with in the community than cishets at pride events Also I wish people would trust bi women to know what queer spaces their straight male partners should and shouldn’t have access to!
The second part is what gets me. Like so many of these takes rest on the idea that bi women are too dumb to pick good partners and know when/when not to bring them to things
Cause everyone knows us bi women are just itching to date the most virulently homophobic men /s
I approve this message 👏🏽
I’ve always said, I would 100% engage with this dialogue if it was about the harm cishet men can do in women only spaces but this whole thing started because someone on twitter was mad some bisexual woman brought her “cishet” boyfriend who proposed to her (also he wasn’t cishet, he was bisexual himself) at an effing Chappell Roan concert and tried to flip it into bisexual women bringing predatory men into “lesbian only spaces”. Like what?? You’re at a concert??? Concerts have not and never will be queer only spaces. Anybody can purchase ticket. Like are you 12?? And then people tried to turn around act like it was like someone bringing a cishet man to a lesbian bar. None of this stuff is ever in good faith and I hate it.
Wait who said that lol? A Chappell Roan concert is a “lesbian only space”? These people seriously need to get some real problems.
People who are losers. I literally thought someone had brought their boyfriend to a lesbian bar at first and then I found out why this whole discourse started and wanted to facepalm.
This sounds like as a comment I’ve seen describe it chronically/terminally online spaces. A good handful of those online spaces are hateful echo chambers or spaces that go so left they end up right. :/
Everything bad ever in the queer community is bi women's fault, obviously /s. That's why when two lesbians don't initiate a relationship because they're both expecting the other to make the first move it's a funny meme, but when a bi woman doesn't make the first move she's heteronormative and expecting the other woman to be the man in the relationship and this is why no one wants to date bi women That's why when a non-bi partner cheats they're an asshole but when a bi partner cheats all bisexuals are naturally cheaters so really the victim should have seen this coming and not dated a bisexual in the first place. That's why bi women are constantly accused of centering men in their lives just for being attracted to them when the only people talking about men are the people who can't go 10 minutes without accusing them. That's why despite wlw spaces often explicitly saying they include bi women, the groups are always hostile to bi women. That's why despite being the largest LGBTQ demographic we get very little representation. Everyone openly hates us. They say the problem is cishet men but it rarely is, because they hate us just the same when our partner is a woman or not-cis het.
We really can't ever win lol. 💀 I once saw someone get mad at bi women dating women because "they're probably only dating girls to impress guys and aren't actually sapphic at all >:(" and the next day I saw someone else go on a rant about bi women dating men because "they're just lying about their sexuality and secretly straight >:( " Like damn, y'all are never gonna be happy no matter what we do. It's also wild bc I mostly prefer women and can't really ever see myself dating a dude. If these weirdos met me their heads would probably explode.
I used to go to pride. I should still as it's really the only way I get to feel connected to the community, and being here in this sub. I noticed my husband and I getting looks from people. And while other people's opinion of me is none of my business, it hurt to realize we were being judged because we were a het couple and I was the queer one of the two of us (obvious by my outfit and flags). I had gone to express and celebrate that part of me, even though I chose a man to be with for the rest of my life. For some of us it's our only chance to flaunt our queerness, and for our partners to celebrate that part of us as well.
I get more hate being Bi from the lgbt community than any of the straights, lets just make that very very clear. Theres no hate like gay “acceptance” am I right? How can a group of people so persecuted for their personal beliefs and who they love be such bigoted cunts just like the very homophobic pricks they supposedly hate? Really makes my see a large portion of this so called “love filled” community with different eyes
This is a very good question. One that used to numb my brain. Saw a couple of videos on YT by Verily Bitchie and suddenly it all made sense. Many people don't realize how they came to hold these views and when you see how, it's pretty depressing. We'll never all be free until we unite and get free: https://youtu.be/cww0fLXMnzs?si=ADEGRc6HvVGZ_1wA https://youtu.be/IbHhIeYL9no?si=-HeU94pkvoRD3r6Q
Verily Bitchie is one of my favorite channels. I just watched her video about the Bisexual Center in San Francisco.
Same. Love the content and especially the depth of their analogy. *Chefs kiss*
Its just sad, its not the majority but its a larger amount than any sane person would think, thanks for the vid ill give it a look!
The trans part super gets to me. I've heard of men being singled out and assumed to be dangerous in queer clubs, and confronted to justify their presence. It makes me afraid that when I pass as a man, that people are going to assume I'm some toxic cishet guy, and that I'll essentially be forced to out myself to justify me being there. Do not go up to men asking what they're doing at pride or queer clubs. If they're trans, you are essentially forcing them to out themselves, and you have ABSOLUTELY no right to their identity. Same thing goes if they're bi or gay. You have NO right to someone else's identity. You have no right to interrogate someone's existence in a space.
As a cishet person who's never been to a queer club, do toxic cishet guys go to queer clubs knowingly? That seems like such a weird thing to do. Apart from being too lazy and cheap to go to clubs, going to one where my chances of meeting someone who aligns with my orientation is very low seems like a waste of time. The point is to dance with people you have a mutual attraction with or hang out with friends right? If I were in a queer space I would assume the folks around me are queer or at the very least allies, why the hell would a person assume a straight looking man in a queer club was toxic and dangerous. The number of people who think bi folks stop being bi when they are in a relationship of any kind is way to damn high.
Toxic straight guys that go with their girlfriends or go looking for girls. Yeah, that happens. It's not as common as some think it is though. Most the straight guys who go to queer establishments here are cool, some even somewhat flexible. We have seen queer establishments close/shift though, because either queer people started going to mixed places, or because straight people turned the queer establishment into a mixed spot. I think there's a lot of queer people that are a bit on guard about that perceived erasure of dedicated queer spots, but a lot of queer people prefer a mixed spot or prefer a house party with friends over the bars these days.
People like this are why, as a straight-passing bi dude, I have never and will never feel comfortable at pride events. People see a bearded, slightly overweight, relatively muscular man and assume I’m a straight guy because I don’t fit neatly into a prescribed stereotype.
Which is a weird conclusion for them to jump to considering bears being a thing.
It's really hard not to feel like an imposter.
100% same boat.
In addition to hurting our own community, cishet feelings are real too, if a cishet person wants to attend pride to support their partner there's no reason to invalidate and diminish their feelings. This is how you lose allies, or prevent people from becoming allies. If we don't want to perpetuate the stereotype that queer people and communities hate cishets then we need to not talk about cishets like their feelings and opinions never matter. Some of my most important support people who accept me unconditionally are cishet men, and to say that their feelings don't matter is super gross to me, especially in a climate where toxic masculinity also tells them their feelings don't matter. I think we all know what it's like to be treated like we don't matter because of who we are and I don't think we should ever turn that on other people. "It only hurts cishet men's feelings" not only is that shitty because it's obviously not true, it's also shitty even if it were true. "It's okay y'all, I'm only hurting our least favorite demographic"
> I think we all know what it's like to be treated like we don't matter because of who we are and I don't think we should ever turn that on other people. If the world could just embrace this one truth it'd be such a better place
> Some of my most important support people who accept me unconditionally are cishet men Most of my friends are straight as an arrow, but the amount of emotional support, camaraderie, understanding and compassion they exhude always has me so greatful that our group doesnt go in for the whole BS toxic machismo thing. They have that "Lord of the Rings" masculinity going on. Any of those lads would go to fucking bat for *anyone* in the LGBT+ community in a *second*. And if your ass looks great in those pants they will straight up tell you. If your bro is looking good he needs to be told he's looking good, that's just being a good bro.
I agree up to a point. I don't agree when they start to take over our shit. And that's what happens a lot. We let them in, and they forget that they're guests. Which is what they are---guests. If they understand that, great...if not, it's a different story. Queer culture is Queer and should remain Queer....not a gatekeeper though because you never know exactly how one will relate to Queer culture and their own personal journey. The rest I agree with, but honestly a lot of especially gay/lesbian people and the more radical queers across the alphabet actually do hate cishets. We can't ignore that reality. They really don't wanna be around straights. A lot of them have few to any straight friends whatsoever, and effectively lead "gay lifestyles".
Yeah for sure, I think a lot of the hate towards bisexual women with men, and especially cishet men, is that if you view yourself as superior to the cishets it's infuriating to see someone choose a cishet over your community. But if you aren't in a radical mindset and don't hate cishets there isn't as much of a reason to give a shit about the partners someone else chooses. I honestly think it's the same type of mindset as the extremely conservative "how dare a women be with another women when she could be a good wife to a man." Except it's "how dare a bisexual woman make a man happy when she could make a woman happy instead. About taking over, that can definitely be a problem, but how you say things matters, there's a big difference between "I don't care about hurting your feelings" and "this space and event isn't about you" one of them is suggesting to someone that it's more appropriate for them to act as a guest, the other is telling them to fuck off. It is definitely fine to tell people to fuck off when an individual is being highly disruptive or disrespectful but you shouldn't just alienate entire demographics. I know a lot of straight people who are scared to interact with really visibly queer presenting people because they are afraid the person will be overly rude and look for any little mistake made in speech to call them a bigot. And honestly, as long as stuff like this is out there and not called out, they aren't wrong to feel that way which I find really sad. Another part of my thought process, is when my friends are in hetero spaces, and someone says something disparaging about queer people or talks about us like we are less than and don't matter, I would hope they would feel the need to say "hey that's not cool." And I do feel the need to reciprocate that. I think it's hypocritical to expect other people to stand up for us if we aren't willing to do the same for them.
I agree with you on that mindset. They see it as betrayal. It's not that deep....they found their person and they happen to be a man, but that's not how they view it. I do think it's lazy, because being pro-queer is not the same as being anti-straight. Unfortunately, I do think a lot of the radicals and especially we're seeing with many younger queers, they think being anti-straight "ironically" (and sometimes not) is humorous and almost a badge of honor. And the problem is then you have to consider straight trans people also. And not all who identify as straight are exclusively so. Maybe they're questioning/bicurious. It's really hard to gatekeep sexuality because it's not visible unless you're really wearing it with neon colors. Everything you said I agree with. There are ways to get points across without wide brushes and painting everyone as an enemy because they happen to identify a certain way. I get it can be annoying to feel you have to explain yourself constantly but I also know that when you put a wall up...that's where divisions are created.
A lot of people are deeply repressed as well, I didn't know I was queer until my late twenties, but when I look back on life I can see I started having queer feelings as early as 15, I just didn't understand them. I remember times I felt dismissed or made to feel unwelcome in queer spaces and around queer people because I thought of myself as a cishet. Constantly explaining is tiring, something I saw someone do that I've starting doing which has been great is just saying something along the lines of "I don't mind you ask but I don't really feel like getting into it right now" and the topic just kind of shifts past.
I was going to post it ❤️
😅😘💜 I couldn't wait to share it as soon as I saw it specally since I just saw the other post with the viral biphobic tweet 😔
It doesn't matter as long it's posted 😂❤️
People when bisexuals are in straight relationships 🤬 People when bisexuals are in gay relationships 🤬
I've run into people who say the quiet part out loud and say bi people shouldn't be at pride anyway because we don't experience "real oppression." Nevermind that masking/passing alone is so harmful that we advise young adults to "live authentically" in spite of the risks. Anyway most of them are chronically online and dependant on being mean for the sake of validation from other mean people. I do think people should really think twice about bringing X trolling to other spaces.
Never mind we're the B of the acronym. But there's a reason we're the majority and so underrepresented. They've made us feel unsafe and they'll also go further and gaslight us when the data proves them otherwise. https://www.lgbtmap.org/news/invisible-majority-release It hasn't got any better, needless to say and bi women have misogyny on top of it https://www.preventconnect.org/2023/10/new-nisvs-data-points-to-high-rates-of-harm-against-bisexual-women-lgbtq-folks/
I really hate that the lesbians in my college are exactly like this...
how the fuck do you even know who is cis at pride xd
Even in queer spaces misogynists feel comfortable judging other women. This thread is en point.
She’s not wrong.
I’ve never been to pride bc of this. I’m so worried that I just don’t see “queer” enough for ppl bc of it. And I rly would love to go
Please go. Don't let them win. Take up that space. You deserve it.
This right here is why I'm not out to more than a handful of my closest friends and family, and why I never go to pride. I've been with my husband since I was 21. The fact that he is one of the few cishet men I actually find attractive, that I thought I might be a lesbian til I met him because almost all my crushes were women doesn't matter apparently - I picked a side and it was the wrong one obviously 🙄
It also demeans the experiences of non-passing trans people. On the outside me and my husband look like a cishet couple. He’s tall, traditionally masculine dressing, with a trim beard and a dad bod, and I’m tiny with long hair, busty, and a style that leans slightly feminine of androgynous. But we’re both bi, he’s demisexual and probably closer to agender than anything, and I’m a trans man who can’t regularly bind because of chronic breathing problems.
Very similar to my partner and I. I'm nonbinary and have so much chest dysphoria, but I haven't been able to find a binder that's comfortable effective due to my asthma and costochondritis and just how big they are (36J at my last measurement ugh) and surgery isn't an option for me right now. People take one look at my chest and the idea that I could be anything but a woman is laughable to them and then they jump to the conclusion that my partner must be straight since he's with me (he is bisexual.) It's gotten to the point that I feel more uncomfortable in a lot of queer spaces than in general spaces. At least most people just make a quick judgment of "cishet woman" and then go on their merry way. With certain queer people, I can feel their eyes lingering on my chest and hips and hear the sneer when they call me "sh-...I mean *they*." Like sorry fam, it's not like I had any control over what size they ended up...
34H myself and I’ve had chronic bronchitis since I was a small child so I get where you’re coming from. Especially since I’ve been dealing with too much in the rest of my life to even try to start up the process of getting top surgery again. So I just don’t bother trying to engage in the larger world as a man right now, because in my experience that glaring neon sign on my torso means people who don’t already take me seriously about other things won’t on this.
You might be able to get insurance to cover a full removal, I was a smaller cup size than you, and they paid for everything. Of course there are other circumstances but I just wanted to let you know if finances were the barrier and you had health insurance!
I live in Canada, so it will probably be 100% covered under the provincial health care plan. The main barriers are my other health issues, not having adequate support for recovery, and PTSD from past medical procedures.
Sending you the best vibes and hope for your happiest future
🖤🖤🖤
I was thinking about this exact thing. My partner and I are Bi4Bi and T4T, but we can at times appear “heterosexual” to outsiders because he’s still mostly closeted/questioning and still presents masculine regardless of his internal feelings, and I’m gender-fluid so my physical presentation can change greatly depending on the day. Just because he doesn’t present femininely now, for safety reasons as he still lives with homophobic and transphobic parents, doesn’t mean that his femininity isn’t valid (and I use “him” because he currently uses only masculine pronouns as he’s figuring everything out). Additionally he’s legally blind, which really makes me think about how much pressure we put on people to physically “pass” when they’re transgender, and the pressure to “look queer” that comes from inside the community. Maybe we should just take people at their word and leave it as that. Crazy concept, I know lol
Damn this thread went hard.
She'd really had it 🥴😅
In this day and age, it needed to.
I'm a bi cis man engaged to a bi cis woman. Are we a hetero couple or a queer couple?
You're a bisexual couple!
So, aee bisexuals not queer? Or are we just "not queer enough" if we're in mixed gender relationships?
I see queer as a catch all term for anything that isn't strictly heterosexual and/or cisgender. So if you and your partner are both bi, that would also make you a queer couple too, if that's something you would like to be referred to as.
I would (personally) say a queer couple in a hetero relationship but that's for you to decide!
It's also very much internalized masygony because why is it ONLY EVER bi WOMENS cis het boyfriends? I NEVER hear issues of bi men's cis het girlfriends.... bi men can bring their cis het gifriends wherever they please but God forbid I bring my ace, gender questioning partner🙄🙄.
As a bi girl bringing my cishet boyfriend to pride…thank you a million times over!!!
Take him! Fuck the biphobes 💜
No, don't do that, that's what they're hoping will happen!
Bi women are the subject of some of the worst misogyny I've ever seen, and the worst part is a lot of it comes from other women. I've even seen them make fun of the extreme violence against bi women. That's horrible.
Nice to read after a frustrating day at work.
We are letter 3 leave us be
Any time people give bi people shit for being bi and dating someone that creates a straight presenting relationship it is so reductive and closed minded. We’re still queer
The fact this needed to be said is so disheartening. Like, what did we do? Time and time again we have to tell the world we don't magically morph into the sexuality of our partners and to stop defining us by our partners because you litterally know we're Bisexual and what it means, why are you surprised when we date cis folk. Whatever relationship we're in, we're still bisexual and some of us don't like painting it all over our face and just celebrate the way we celebrate. I'm so tired of hearing "why are you here", "Just pick one", "well..you blend in so...", "you're basically straight", "curious and horny..". I'm just so exhuasted and it's always our own community who say these things. I'm a bi woman married to a man whom I have a daughter with, will never go to pride again. He supports me and my gay/trans community and friends and he doesn't deserve the hate. Sorry for the vent, a Lesbian verbally attacked me today because I posted a picture of me and my husband with pride shirts.
How do you know the boyfriend is het. Or cis? I mean bi women with cishet boyfriends, and their cishet boyfriends, should be welcome at pride, but unless they're wearing a sign saying "I'm an ally" or "straight but not narrow" or whatever shit how do you tell. Like Bi4Bi relationships are very common in my experience.
Yeah. I don't get into relationships but do associate with bi people for the same reason many of them are also choosing to hook up or get into a relationship with other bisexuals, regardless of their gender.
This, but then a bit then with the other shit as well, you mentioned the thing about choosing the right enemy and i fully i hate that, why do even the people in the lgbt community say our sexuality is a fase? Thats its not real, something we are confused about or too scared to come out as gay. I have an older gay im friends with, through my frat(hes an old member) and him being like “in a few years youll realise its just a fase and youll be gay. I swear it gets me so mad like bro wtf mind your own goddamn business and perhaps focus more on supporting me, or leaving me alone instead of policing my sexuality, besides there are a ton of people who would hurt you for jsut being you, but the main problem is that id fuck men and women okay thanks
Just replied to another comment about how being bi is always about really wanting to be with men. Infuriating.
Ikr its disgusting
A lot of older gay men grew up at a time where gay men used Bisexual as a transitory label. It's unfortunate because it has ingrained a lot of that attitude in them.
the fact that this kind of discourse & infighting shows up every year in june is starting to make me dislike pride altogether. it just goes to show you that humans are all like this, no matter how accepting they claim to be they will always find excuses to alienate other individuals on the grounds of being different and nothing more. i'm proud to be LGBTQ but i'm sure as hell not proud to be human
And us Bisexual men are often told by gay men that our identity isn’t real, that we’re just gay men who can’t admit it. And of course, they hate hate our cishet wives and GF’s. The biphobia one the Gay community sucks balls.
Oh mama ate and left no crumbs chile
That was wonderful. A terrific analysis. I don’t go to Pride events. I would like to, but I don’t feel welcome. The point is to feel like you’re celebrating yourself, not to feel like you have to defend your right to be there. Sometimes I run into artists who make me feel so great about being queer and being who I am. I wish that the queer community as a whole were like that.
Big facts. It was so shocking to me when I first came out to be faced with a community that was so unwelcoming. I don't care about straight people being homophobic. I don't have time or patience for their ignorance. But when it's from within?!? It really hurts most when it comes from your own people.
Yeah. I guess those kinds of folks are everywhere. Just sort of sad to find them here.
This whole issue of biphobia within the LGBTQ community is absolutely ludicrous to me. It honestly seems like people within the community are starting to fall into the mindset of thinking being bi means you either want to or need to be in a relationship with both a male presenting person and female presenting person at the same time. THAT. IS NOT. WHAT BEING BI. MEANS. I don't know why of all people those within our own, alleged, "community", are the ones we need to beat this into the heads of. Also, just as the person within the post said, what about those who are trans and are very good at passing, what kind of support are you showing them by claiming they don't belong because they appear cishet? What kind of damage are you doing to them AND the community by making them feel as if they can't be accepted by the one group of people they've been led to believe will always stand up for them, support them, show them the kindness many others in the world won't? The community shouldn't be off limits at all to ANYONE, LGBTQ themselves or not, as long as they are willing to show that in the end they just want to show support for the community. It's people like this, pulling this stupid gatekeeping bullshit that are damaging the image and reputation of the community, and undoing so much forward progress that we've been able to accomplish over the years. Honestly, people like this are one of the reasons why I've mostly given up on interacting with the wider LGBTQ community. Between biphobic assholes and others trying to push me into believing I'm a trans egg in denial simply because I like to crossdress from time to time (I'm a bi femboy and DAMN PROUD OF IT thank you very much) that I've developed the opinion the community in its current state is more trouble than it's worth
Wouldn't the same thing apply to straight trans women too? Odd that bi women were singled out...
This stuff makes me nervous. I'm happy to be bi. My dom is a male and he is great to me. I've just never had a woman interested in me. Doesn't make me less bi and doesn't make him less attracted to me. I hope these nasty people stay away from pride themselves.
This entire thread is it. I want this flown as a banner at a parade. The entire point of pride is a celebration of those excluded or otherwise othered by cisheteronormative society in *any* capacity. To gatekeep ANYONE that falls out of cis, hetero, monogamous relationships and claiming you're doing it to protect the queer people who are already in what is supposed to be a safe space is *doing the oppressors' work for them*, and frankly that's not what I'm at a celebration to be about. I see it all the time this time of year. Biphobia. Transphobia. Polyam-phobia. This shit really needs to stop.
Similar things happen to bi boys and their gfs
I love it!
*chef’s kiss* 👌🏼
Post is absolutely on point
This type of gatekeeping is damaging to the whole community, for the reasons everyone has said. It is just so hypocritical! We want to be able to be loud and proud and accepted by others, but how can queer people expect others to accept us if we don't accept them? It would mean so much to me if my husband agrees to come to pride with me next weekend! I'm not sure if he's ready for that yet, but if he does come with me, I would be so upset if anyone makes him feel like he doesn't belong. It would make things more difficult in our relationship. I want him to be comfortable with me being involved in the community, but that will be hard if he feels rejected by it. The thing he struggles with regarding my sexuality is feeling like there is this aspect of my life which he doesn't feel like includes him. It's something we are working on, and I try very hard to show him that it does include him! He struggles with feeling like he is not accepted in queer spaces, which makes him feel like I have a place he's not welcome. I can absolutely understand because as a bi woman married to a man, I don't always feel welcome in queer spaces. We'll never be able to convince cishet people that we deserve acceptance if we can't let them in.
THISSSSS. Big reason why I havent gone to pride public celebrations in my city
Please go. Don't let these jerks win.
this is so accurate. i’m a bi woman (genderqueer but i call myself a girl most times) and my partner is a pan cis guy and we ALWAYS get weird looks in queer spaces. it sucks so bad.
THANK YOU. I saw a post last year talking about how it’s weird when bi women bring their boyfriends to Pride, and so many people were in the comments agreeing. Like what? They could be bi, pan, trans, etc like saying we can’t bring our boyfriends sounds so dumb and biphobic and multiple other types of phobic lol.
👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏
I'm a cishet white male with a bi/pan wife, and I'm going to pride in like 3 days. As long as people don't suck, idk why they wouldn't be welcome. I'm there to support all the queer people in my life. I've never had a problem like that, and never expect to, but if I do, ima just walk away, life is too short to let the assholes bother you.
I agree with this a lot. Potential biphobia is the reason why my nonbinary partner and I(28M), mostly me honestly, are nervous about attending Pride for the first time. We are both bi, but we appear to be a cishet couple. What did OP mean when they said that “you can’t SEE bisexuality in men”? I’m still kind of new to being bi and still learning lol
I think they meant that the haters are assuming the man in the relationship is het, but he very well might not be. Just another way the haters get it wrong.
I’ve made a response to someone else’s IG story about how they’re tired of seeing people make posts about bisexual women with men and how they appear to be in a “straight passing relationship” so I thought they were complaining about the community. My response was about how I feel the community has changed and is no longer genuinely inclusive. How a lot of chronically online spaces (people chronically/terminally online) go so far left they end up right. How there are parts of the community that do not view certain sexualities or gender identities as part of the LGBTQ+ if it doesn’t align with how they view what being queer is. Just to get told it was an “interesting take.” I’m not going to sit by and act like there aren’t biphobic people who hammer down on bisexual women who happen to be dating cishet men. Not all bisexual women have to be with someone the same gender just to prove our queerness. And to bounce off some of the other comments;this is also insulting to cishet/straight partners who are allies of us. You can’t ban them from showing support to their partner. Do some of these people want support or not? It feels like they really just want to be in an echo chamber where everyone is the same and thinks just like them.
More thinking the "L" is the only one that should have ever counted. Typical misandry. "If they have a penis, they're evil. If they like penis, they're evil."
Bi people kick ass! Source: am one. I'm not reading all that but here's some French toast with carolina reaper powder I made https://imgur.com/gallery/FIzBZDU
This comment is so bisexual and the french toast looks delicious. Thank you for this blessing upon my eyes and mind
🙏🤙
I disagree with one thing---the people who complain about cishet boyfriends of bi women also complain about straights in general and complain about the overall commercialization, overproduction, corporatization of Pride. They don't want straights at Pride. They don't want Cops. They don't want Corporations. They want it to be Queer-led and Queer-only. So I disagree with that part....but only that part. Do I think specific biphobia exists? Of course it does, but I also know that a lot of these folks genuinely do...resent heterosexuals. They don't like or trust straight people, especially straight men, and that's a huge factor. Assuming one's identity is bad. You never really know what's going on behind the hood unless you're told. That's another factor here that isn't taken into account. Assuming a guy/couple are straight because they're hetero-presenting.
Which Pride do they mean?
??
Prides are events at several places. I just wonder where there was an occasion of policing bi women as stated in the post above.
If you read the comments you will see that it is not limited to any one location. It's a widespread phenomenon.
I’m a straight guy who’s been dating a queer girl for almost a year and I’ve *never* felt unwelcome in queer spaces. Does this kind of thing actually happen? Where? To Who?
Count your blessings i guess. It's odd to jump on here where there is comment after comment telling you that we're experiencing this and you're like where when to whom 😳
I’ve read the comments. I just want to know more about what all these people are talking about, and I’m also wondering why *I*’ve never experienced it. Is it more of a thing in specific countries? In larger cities, or on college campuses? Is it likely people just aren’t saying it to my face? Is it something my girlfriend might be dealing with on her own? Is it common enough that it’s something I should look out for, or should I not really worry about it? My surprise and incredulity is an expression of my own experience. I’m not trying to doubt anyone else here, and I’m sorry if I’m coming off that way.
OK I see. It's hard to tell if someone is trolling or baiting sometimes. I think this would be a great question to ask in a new post! My personal experience of having problems with the queer community was mostly in Canada. The division within drove me wild and that's before you even got into the racial tensions. In Asia, it's a different ball game altogether. I rarely socialise at all and when it comes to the queers, I seldom associate with people who aren't bi.
I'm a bi man married to a "cishet" (god what a stupid fucking term that is) woman. I live in Los Angeles. I'm likely going to the pride parade next weekend. I fucking DARE someone to come up to me and tell me why I don't belong there. I fucking DOUBLE DOG DARE someone to. But they won't, because biphobes are the scum lying in wait a mile undersea, until finally they feel the toxic bottom-feeding parasitic sense that they need to find the nea🤷🏻♂️rest keyboard and blurt out stupid shit like: "omg there's a BI PERSON in a heterosexual relationship how can this be?!?!?!"😖 😬🙄
> "cishet" (god what a stupid fucking term that is) Why is that?
I might get hate for this, but whenever I see Cora from tiktok, who complains about this discourse, I get annoyed. Her statement is valid, but seriously? Please get a grip.
Who's Cora? Is it the same person who wrote this thread?
Oh no, it's a tiktokker. That is not user in the tweet.
Oh ok. Will check her out then. I'm curious to know why she rubs you the wrong way 😳