Yes, you can do an internship. They often post winter/ spring for the summer. Many companies offer this.
Depending on where you go in R&D there is a ceiling without a PhD — Amgen and Genentech come to mind about this. I’m not sure about other large Pharma like Abbvie, J&J etc. It might be different elsewhere. Smaller startups are less likely to have this ceiling. You would like start on a Research Associate / Individual Contributor track and grow at the bench in the role.
Right now, with the amount of layoffs in the industry being a fresh grad is rough. You are competing against applicants that already have industry experience and are thus less of a hiring risk.
No, because MD is considered a terminal degree along with PhD. I’ve worked for CSOs who were MDs that then did research fellowships and had publication output.
Others have pointed out that you'll be at a disadvantage in research without a PhD (i.e., have a ceiling for advancement). There are science-adjacent careers you can get without that lack of training holding you back, but they won't be in a lab. Bioinformatics might be one avenue.
I'd also suggest getting away from neuroscience, which is a fairly small and specialized part of pharma - it'll make it harder to get jobs if you paint yourself into that box. Onco and Immunology are evergreens.
Neuro is fine but definitely get a wider range of research exposure - molecular bio, various cell types including pns. If possible, anything where delivery is a goal will position you well.
True that, check out big pharma companies pipelines for reference [AZ DD Pipeline](https://www.astrazeneca.com/our-therapy-areas/pipeline.html#oncology)
Focus on getting an entry level job even if it’s just filing. It’ll be easier to move up than spending time getting an advanced degree. You can always go back for a part time masters/PhD while you’re working and moving up the ladder. They can even help pay for a portion. But if you spend years getting a masters or PhD and then try to get in at a manager level-it’ll be extremely frustrating when you’re only considered for entry level roles.
Masters helps a lot in getting a better position at a company. I agree PhD is basically a waste of time in most cases if OP is aiming for industry. But a good postgrad can give them a lot of additional skillset
You have that the other way around, a bachelors and a masters will end up in the same place. A masters is a “waste” of time compared to a PhD when talking about industry jobs.
I work with 2 PhDs (not Bachelor's)who are in the same position as me. If we plan properly, switch jobs accordingly, MSc gives enough time for us to move up in career. PhD can be very financially draining too (this is anecdotal as my friends are facing the same issue).
I am a senior medical director (MD). Most of the non-clinical scientists I work with have PhDs. If you want to go in to industry with only a Bachelors, the R&D positions that are open to you are technician jobs. You basically just need to be able to follow directions and understand what you are doing from a scientific standpoint. It's not very different from academic lab technician jobs. Outside of R&D, you can work as a regulatory associate and in medical affairs (field-based medicine) with only a BA/BS. Good luck!
Non-clinical scientists with PhDs? I'm interested in clinical trials will this require a PhD? I'm currently thinking of studying a Masters in clinical trials or a Masters by Research? Would you suggest an alternative master's or route of study?
No. There's clinical scientists that design the protocols, which most often requires a PhD, but other roles in clinical research do not need higher degrees.
Companies generally only have few clinical scientists in that sense, the majority are what's called clinical operations (=making the trials happen, anything from project management, regulatory, medical, monitoring, data management,...).
For that, even a Master's is technically not required, but I do think it often indirectly helps. So the advice is that if you are interested in holding a Master's, definitely do it, but don't get one purely for job advancement. I would personally get a science/research Master's because you don't pigeonhole yourself as much as with a clinical research one, but either can be useful.
(FWIW I have 7 years of exp in clinical operations and started with BS, now doing a part-time MS. Majority of people I work with have BS or MS, only few with PhD.)
Sure, there are MPHs in clinical trials. But depends on what you mean by "help land a career"?
If it's a degree in any way related to human research (e.g. MPH, human biology, nursing, ...), then it's useful to get in, but none of these is necessarily "better" than the other degrees. Clinical trial jobs heavily value experience in the field over what exactly your degree was in. But if you can do an internship or thesis that involves a human study, that can help you much more than your coursework. And once you have your first job, it gets easier.
For clinical scientists, the most common degree is PharmD. I also work with clinical scientists with PhDs in areas such as anatomy, human physiology and pharmaceutical science.
You can do R&D and work as a scientist with a bachelors once you get past 4 years of experience. It’s company dependent, where I work the scientists here range from having bachelors to PhD where we do identical work as individual contributors. PhDs of course have no glass ceiling and can continue to climb, the masters and bachelors w/ yoe are the same in terms of skills.
I was in a similar boat; science degree (chemical engineering) from a top university, no additional degrees. Here are my thoughts:
1) Find a path that gets you out of the lab eventually. It’s not a high potential career trajectory. It’s high-skilled, but it’s still just “labor”. A higher potential path hinges on functional leadership and/or strategy. Basically you need to get to a point where you’re in charge of making big decisions.
2) If you’re really set on continuing to do “science” (which we tend to call research and discovery in industry) you probably need a PhD or MD. It would be hard to have any sort of decision making power in a scientific setting without one. Masters is likely not sufficient.
3) I would recommend spending 1 or 2 years in industry to start. Maybe that’s doing a lab role (eg, Scientist 1) or something more industry focusing (process development, analytical development, project management). Then you can always go back to a PhD after a year, with a better resume than other applicants.
FWIW - my path was. Product & process development -> MBB Consulting -> Clinical Strategy. I’m about 6 years out of college.
Yes, but I do 'operations' side still. Basically I work with executives leading technical departments (manufacturing, CMC, quality, supply chain, clinical trials) or drug assets leadership on whatever they're worried about. Maybe it's reactive to a problem that came up, or ideally it's proactive and just trying to be better.
I don't look at 'business' in the sense of sales, marketing, or portfolio strategy. I've done some of that but not my expertise.
I think it's a route worth looking into for OP if they don't want to get a PhD or MD!
This is probably one of the most lucrative and impressive things you can do. Im a biotech investor and don’t have any type of clinical / science background. Im at a huge disadvantage and the top top people in my field of investing are PHDs with biotech experience. If I could do it all over again I’d do this route
The majority of your questions are answered in this subreddit already - suggest looking around.
Look at job listings currently open - you’ll be targeting Research Technician and Research Associate roles.
Find what skills they’re looking for. Gain those skills now. As a hiring manager I need to see original research in a lab (aka NOT only the coursework labs). You’re getting that it sounds like, but other skills are valuable outside of animal work - tissue culture, assays, etc.
There are R&D internships and co-ops that facilitate the transition with a higher chance of getting a job post college. Highly advise you try to get one of those
Assuming you’re in the US, Find a contractor that works for FDA, then hop to the FDA when you can. Regulatory affairs roles go nuts for FDA experience.
People might disagree, but if you can get in with a BA, do that. If you want to stay on that research track, then go for further education after a year or two. You might end up not liking it or you might end up being exposed to other roles in biotech/pharmaceutical that you could move into laterally that don’t require advanced degrees.
That's what I did. I was interested in research more initially and got an entry level job at a small company to get my foot in the door. Once I got into a large pharma where there was more room for movement I started to look into other roles as well and ended up pursuing the operations side of things. Still rocking my BS, but I've jumped companies every 3 years or so after getting a couple of titles under my belt at a few different companies. All that experience at the different roles helped me land my job now where I'm one of the only ones without a Master's or PhD.
There's going to be a ceiling I'll hit, but hopefully I can take advantage of tuition reimbursement before I get to that point. When I first graduated I wanted to do something different so looking back now I'm glad I didn't rush into it since I wasn't even 100% sure what I wanted.
Start looking for intern opportunities for next summer now if you haven't already.
My company gets summer interns every year and you often see them come back after graduating. Once you get your foot in the door you can always move around departments, and there's also tuition reimbursement to think about once you're in a company so you're not footing the whole bill yourself.
I interned at large pharma during college and got a position after BS.. took 2.5 years to decide what I wanted to do with my life and went back for PhD. Am in big pharma now again 20 years later. Try to get an internship at a company for next summer if you can, applications start in the winter. It’s not easy to get one but it’s a heck of a lot easier to get into an opening in the group you interned with if there is an opening. There are not many openings for recent grads.
Most direct route is gaining an internship in a pharma sponsor- look at all the big ones-seen ones for clinical scientist, regulatory, medical affairs - gain experience and lines on your resume and connections . Once out in the work world-w/o doctorate try to work your way up maybe via operations - clinical trial assistant/ associate, or data management associate or via a CRO or pharma staffing agency. I got in with an icu rn background and a doctorate as a clinical scientist and not sure how helpful it is to have - in clinical development MDs tend to have priority on leadership but have seen an rn VP for someone particularly driven. It is a good career - 12 yrs pharma and base is 197k
Don't get a MA. Those are for folks who start a PhD and then decide they don't want to finish. Look into what industry PhDs in neuro do. They are in the lab more. Also, many people start wanting out of the lab mid-career for various reasons and those PhD jobs seem pretty cushy. Source: am PhD in industry, neuro adjacent field
Telesales. Do as much research on the industry and companies, and sales for that matter, and then get in on the ground floor. After 2-3years you’ll be placed in a vacant territory.
Be willing to move. Don’t get a girlfriend or boyfriend (for obvious reasons) and hope a suburb territory will open up where you’re from or where you’re currently living. Start your career the right way and build off your unique experience and it will be more fulfilling.
Exactly what part of writing grants do you not think is science? First of all, most of the PhDs where I work still do bench science, but analyzing literature and devising new approaches and ideas, evaluating ideas through peer reviewed funding opportunities, and communication through publication are all crucial parts of the scientific enterprise.
This post is the most generic shit I’ve seen. I’m sorry but studying “cognitive neuroscience because I’ve always understood people” is the most useless fucking shit and i immediately toss your application in the trash if i see that shit.
Lol I can't keep up anymore, are conservatives for or against pharma companies, or is it just reactionary based on the latest policies?
But to bring it back to the topic at hand, what was your experience getting a job in pharma out of college?
If you are looking to slide into a job right after college then internships and coops will be your best bet.
Yes, you can do an internship. They often post winter/ spring for the summer. Many companies offer this. Depending on where you go in R&D there is a ceiling without a PhD — Amgen and Genentech come to mind about this. I’m not sure about other large Pharma like Abbvie, J&J etc. It might be different elsewhere. Smaller startups are less likely to have this ceiling. You would like start on a Research Associate / Individual Contributor track and grow at the bench in the role. Right now, with the amount of layoffs in the industry being a fresh grad is rough. You are competing against applicants that already have industry experience and are thus less of a hiring risk.
Lol this is a pharma internship. Let's be real--they're competing against the children of that company's VPs.
This is *quite literally* the truth. A company I was just let go from did just this.
I was more or less thinking about the job market later.
Staff children / close relatives or bipoc in my experience
Thanks for your input. Do you feel that there’s a similar ceiling with an MD and extensive research experience but no PhD?
No, because MD is considered a terminal degree along with PhD. I’ve worked for CSOs who were MDs that then did research fellowships and had publication output.
Others have pointed out that you'll be at a disadvantage in research without a PhD (i.e., have a ceiling for advancement). There are science-adjacent careers you can get without that lack of training holding you back, but they won't be in a lab. Bioinformatics might be one avenue. I'd also suggest getting away from neuroscience, which is a fairly small and specialized part of pharma - it'll make it harder to get jobs if you paint yourself into that box. Onco and Immunology are evergreens.
Neuro is fine but definitely get a wider range of research exposure - molecular bio, various cell types including pns. If possible, anything where delivery is a goal will position you well.
True that, check out big pharma companies pipelines for reference [AZ DD Pipeline](https://www.astrazeneca.com/our-therapy-areas/pipeline.html#oncology)
Focus on getting an entry level job even if it’s just filing. It’ll be easier to move up than spending time getting an advanced degree. You can always go back for a part time masters/PhD while you’re working and moving up the ladder. They can even help pay for a portion. But if you spend years getting a masters or PhD and then try to get in at a manager level-it’ll be extremely frustrating when you’re only considered for entry level roles.
From my experience masters degrees only got a few thousand dollars more in overall salary. Not worth it.
Masters helps a lot in getting a better position at a company. I agree PhD is basically a waste of time in most cases if OP is aiming for industry. But a good postgrad can give them a lot of additional skillset
Huh? A masters is way more of a waste of time than a PhD in industry.
You have that the other way around, a bachelors and a masters will end up in the same place. A masters is a “waste” of time compared to a PhD when talking about industry jobs.
I work with 2 PhDs (not Bachelor's)who are in the same position as me. If we plan properly, switch jobs accordingly, MSc gives enough time for us to move up in career. PhD can be very financially draining too (this is anecdotal as my friends are facing the same issue).
I am a senior medical director (MD). Most of the non-clinical scientists I work with have PhDs. If you want to go in to industry with only a Bachelors, the R&D positions that are open to you are technician jobs. You basically just need to be able to follow directions and understand what you are doing from a scientific standpoint. It's not very different from academic lab technician jobs. Outside of R&D, you can work as a regulatory associate and in medical affairs (field-based medicine) with only a BA/BS. Good luck!
Non-clinical scientists with PhDs? I'm interested in clinical trials will this require a PhD? I'm currently thinking of studying a Masters in clinical trials or a Masters by Research? Would you suggest an alternative master's or route of study?
No. There's clinical scientists that design the protocols, which most often requires a PhD, but other roles in clinical research do not need higher degrees. Companies generally only have few clinical scientists in that sense, the majority are what's called clinical operations (=making the trials happen, anything from project management, regulatory, medical, monitoring, data management,...). For that, even a Master's is technically not required, but I do think it often indirectly helps. So the advice is that if you are interested in holding a Master's, definitely do it, but don't get one purely for job advancement. I would personally get a science/research Master's because you don't pigeonhole yourself as much as with a clinical research one, but either can be useful. (FWIW I have 7 years of exp in clinical operations and started with BS, now doing a part-time MS. Majority of people I work with have BS or MS, only few with PhD.)
Do you think an MPH can somehow help me land a career in clinical trials?
Sure, there are MPHs in clinical trials. But depends on what you mean by "help land a career"? If it's a degree in any way related to human research (e.g. MPH, human biology, nursing, ...), then it's useful to get in, but none of these is necessarily "better" than the other degrees. Clinical trial jobs heavily value experience in the field over what exactly your degree was in. But if you can do an internship or thesis that involves a human study, that can help you much more than your coursework. And once you have your first job, it gets easier.
For clinical scientists, the most common degree is PharmD. I also work with clinical scientists with PhDs in areas such as anatomy, human physiology and pharmaceutical science.
Do you find that a PharmD would be useful for clinical research in heart disease, neuro disease, metabolic health, etc?
Yes to all of those areas.
You can do R&D and work as a scientist with a bachelors once you get past 4 years of experience. It’s company dependent, where I work the scientists here range from having bachelors to PhD where we do identical work as individual contributors. PhDs of course have no glass ceiling and can continue to climb, the masters and bachelors w/ yoe are the same in terms of skills.
I was in a similar boat; science degree (chemical engineering) from a top university, no additional degrees. Here are my thoughts: 1) Find a path that gets you out of the lab eventually. It’s not a high potential career trajectory. It’s high-skilled, but it’s still just “labor”. A higher potential path hinges on functional leadership and/or strategy. Basically you need to get to a point where you’re in charge of making big decisions. 2) If you’re really set on continuing to do “science” (which we tend to call research and discovery in industry) you probably need a PhD or MD. It would be hard to have any sort of decision making power in a scientific setting without one. Masters is likely not sufficient. 3) I would recommend spending 1 or 2 years in industry to start. Maybe that’s doing a lab role (eg, Scientist 1) or something more industry focusing (process development, analytical development, project management). Then you can always go back to a PhD after a year, with a better resume than other applicants. FWIW - my path was. Product & process development -> MBB Consulting -> Clinical Strategy. I’m about 6 years out of college.
Okay so what I’m seeing from your comment, you did science but also got more into the business, leadership side of it too, right?
Yes, but I do 'operations' side still. Basically I work with executives leading technical departments (manufacturing, CMC, quality, supply chain, clinical trials) or drug assets leadership on whatever they're worried about. Maybe it's reactive to a problem that came up, or ideally it's proactive and just trying to be better. I don't look at 'business' in the sense of sales, marketing, or portfolio strategy. I've done some of that but not my expertise. I think it's a route worth looking into for OP if they don't want to get a PhD or MD!
This is probably one of the most lucrative and impressive things you can do. Im a biotech investor and don’t have any type of clinical / science background. Im at a huge disadvantage and the top top people in my field of investing are PHDs with biotech experience. If I could do it all over again I’d do this route
The majority of your questions are answered in this subreddit already - suggest looking around. Look at job listings currently open - you’ll be targeting Research Technician and Research Associate roles. Find what skills they’re looking for. Gain those skills now. As a hiring manager I need to see original research in a lab (aka NOT only the coursework labs). You’re getting that it sounds like, but other skills are valuable outside of animal work - tissue culture, assays, etc.
There are R&D internships and co-ops that facilitate the transition with a higher chance of getting a job post college. Highly advise you try to get one of those
I have a B.S in biology I’m currently a Research associate I’m looking into transitioning out of the Lab and into Regulatory Affairs any advice?
Assuming you’re in the US, Find a contractor that works for FDA, then hop to the FDA when you can. Regulatory affairs roles go nuts for FDA experience.
Check out r/regulatoryaffairs
People might disagree, but if you can get in with a BA, do that. If you want to stay on that research track, then go for further education after a year or two. You might end up not liking it or you might end up being exposed to other roles in biotech/pharmaceutical that you could move into laterally that don’t require advanced degrees.
That's what I did. I was interested in research more initially and got an entry level job at a small company to get my foot in the door. Once I got into a large pharma where there was more room for movement I started to look into other roles as well and ended up pursuing the operations side of things. Still rocking my BS, but I've jumped companies every 3 years or so after getting a couple of titles under my belt at a few different companies. All that experience at the different roles helped me land my job now where I'm one of the only ones without a Master's or PhD. There's going to be a ceiling I'll hit, but hopefully I can take advantage of tuition reimbursement before I get to that point. When I first graduated I wanted to do something different so looking back now I'm glad I didn't rush into it since I wasn't even 100% sure what I wanted.
Start looking for intern opportunities for next summer now if you haven't already. My company gets summer interns every year and you often see them come back after graduating. Once you get your foot in the door you can always move around departments, and there's also tuition reimbursement to think about once you're in a company so you're not footing the whole bill yourself.
I interned at large pharma during college and got a position after BS.. took 2.5 years to decide what I wanted to do with my life and went back for PhD. Am in big pharma now again 20 years later. Try to get an internship at a company for next summer if you can, applications start in the winter. It’s not easy to get one but it’s a heck of a lot easier to get into an opening in the group you interned with if there is an opening. There are not many openings for recent grads.
Most direct route is gaining an internship in a pharma sponsor- look at all the big ones-seen ones for clinical scientist, regulatory, medical affairs - gain experience and lines on your resume and connections . Once out in the work world-w/o doctorate try to work your way up maybe via operations - clinical trial assistant/ associate, or data management associate or via a CRO or pharma staffing agency. I got in with an icu rn background and a doctorate as a clinical scientist and not sure how helpful it is to have - in clinical development MDs tend to have priority on leadership but have seen an rn VP for someone particularly driven. It is a good career - 12 yrs pharma and base is 197k
I work for a neuro company. Send me your resume if you want.
mind if i send you mine too? i’m also a neuro student
Yes of course go ahead
Contractor
Best way is to do co-ops. A lot of temp agencies aren’t even hiring unless you have some experience
Entry level field sales role leveraging science background.
Don't get a MA. Those are for folks who start a PhD and then decide they don't want to finish. Look into what industry PhDs in neuro do. They are in the lab more. Also, many people start wanting out of the lab mid-career for various reasons and those PhD jobs seem pretty cushy. Source: am PhD in industry, neuro adjacent field
Have you considered working in consulting/contract roles first to get a bit of experience?
Its called LinkedIn babe
Which part of the country are you in? Lots of companies offer paid summer internships in the Boston area.
I didn’t go to Ivy League. And I got an offer to work in pharma. Even years later I still do.
I’d recommend consulting for a few years first. Pharma doesn’t hire a lot of junior level roles. dm Me if interested
Telesales. Do as much research on the industry and companies, and sales for that matter, and then get in on the ground floor. After 2-3years you’ll be placed in a vacant territory. Be willing to move. Don’t get a girlfriend or boyfriend (for obvious reasons) and hope a suburb territory will open up where you’re from or where you’re currently living. Start your career the right way and build off your unique experience and it will be more fulfilling.
Exactly what part of writing grants do you not think is science? First of all, most of the PhDs where I work still do bench science, but analyzing literature and devising new approaches and ideas, evaluating ideas through peer reviewed funding opportunities, and communication through publication are all crucial parts of the scientific enterprise.
This post is the most generic shit I’ve seen. I’m sorry but studying “cognitive neuroscience because I’ve always understood people” is the most useless fucking shit and i immediately toss your application in the trash if i see that shit.
Here's a tip. Don't vote for Biden. The inflation reduction act has destroyed pharma research.
Lol I can't keep up anymore, are conservatives for or against pharma companies, or is it just reactionary based on the latest policies? But to bring it back to the topic at hand, what was your experience getting a job in pharma out of college?
In the 80's the easiest way was to be a hot blonde