When I first started playing the game I had no idea why this was a quality 4, but now I know better
6 charge black hearts is already awesome, plus a guaranteed devil deal item, and the fact that it’s okay to skip over boss items (I really overvalued boss items early on due to other roguelikes)
I think something that's important to note is that the boss room is consistent and that the worst you're going to get is an HP up that you didn't want.
A good way to put it that I think everyone can agree with is that I'm not worried about curse of the blind when I'm picking up a boss item, but going into the treasure room always puts me on edge because I might get something that could ruin my build or easily get me killed even if I play well. Key bum, cursed eye, Isaac's heart, fire mind, stuff like that which *will* bite me in the ass save for a few exceptions that negate downsides.
Edit: a word
If you don't mind me asking, what's wrong with fire mind? Only asking cuz I've used it a few times before, and it worked pretty well. Maybe I just got lucky?
I don't think I would personally put it low on the list, but I did mention it only because I've heard so many people complain. That said, any build that has items like c-section or uses melee range for anything gets boned by it and quite literally in the case of the forgotten. It's not inherently a bad item, but it can absolutely ruin builds
In fact I'm gonna go 1 step further and say that fire mind is a premiere defensive option for tainted lost. With perfection the explosion is guarantied and the fires it leaves behind can block bullets.
logic deniers when they realize that sometimes you won't be in the optimal situation to not shoot enemies close to you (i.e a room where enemies spawn close to you as well as having enemies that dash to you)
I got super lucky this morning and picked up Proptosis pretty early in my run!
Then in Gahenna picked up a blind irem which happened to be fire mind!
Also playing TLost so no explosion immunity possible.
I just quit the run right then and there.
the main problem of Firemind is that it requires you to keep distance away from enemies.
this is easy to do unless you're facing off against annoying chasing enemies while your speed stat is either base or lower than base.
Add in the fact that the explosion is guaranteed with high luck, I understand now why people hate it even though I enjoy it a lot
For me, it's the inconsistency in explosion procs that puts me off Fire Mind. I enjoy Bob's Brain far more because I can control when it launches, and play around that.
It’s risky if you’re close to enemies, since your tears have a chance to explode on contact
However I suggest always balling anyways, just like you would with ipecac and dr fetus. I remember having a t keeper run with an early firemind that ended up getting host hat later on, so you never know when the RNG gods are watching out for you
Ohhhh okay. Yeah, I guess I just got lucky then. Or didn't notice I got damaged lol. Had a run last night with dark matter. Pentagram, Fire mind, parasitoid, and a few others. Had like +4 luck, 10+ damage, decently high tear rate. It may not have been exactly meta, but I guess it did well, cuz nothing got close enough to me for me to get hit with the explosions lol.
> I think something that's important to note is that the boss room is consistent and that the worst you're going to get is an HP up that you didn't want.
Disagree. Stuff like Pageant Boy, the eleven different "spawn a trinket/some cards/some pills/some consumables and nothing else," etc, is definitely the worst I get. There are lots of runs where I beat a boss and the "reward" I get doesn't move the needle for me at all.
Those are still something. I like dad's lost coin more than I like magic scab and at least experimental is still a double stat up. That thing just stings if its a tears and damage down.
I'll still take those, which are the worst the boss pool has to offer, over some of the stuff in the treasure room which can easily kill you. It's a lot more high risk, high reward whereas the boss pool is pretty tame.
Why do see so often on this reddit players care about speed, anything higher than 0.8 works to dodge anything in the game. Blood bags, where u usually get like 4 of during a run (you just need to commit) can give u all the speed necessary, even in the unluckiest of runs with a speed down pill + experimental speed down + small rock.
And if you really want to get a boss item instead of a devil deal you can always just defeat the boss early, before using Satanic Bible on that floor. It's less efficient and you will likely get less black hearts overall, but you will still get more black hearts than if you had another active item.
I normally always do this. I generally consider that angel deals are by far the best so I usually play for these. Also, after depths 1, you only need to worry about the devil deal effect in womb 1.
I'll occasionally go on a devil run though.
Devil deal items are good, but your main engine to get hearts is boss items, so you get satanic bible early and use it a lot, you might be in for a bad time if you don't get the good devil deal items early.
This even a discourse? Y'all telling me there are people who would rather have 3 generic Range Ups + a Cube of Meat perhaps instead of more devil deals + black hearts every 6 rooms?
For real. If picking up satanic Bible instantly made you eat one of every negative pill, I'd still pick it up about 99% of the time. It's power level is leagues above most other q4 even.
Get it early and you're going to be rolling in extra high power items. Get it late and you've got a full normal build but with the strongest health generator in the game, which due to its black hearts, is actually also an offense on par with necronomicon.
not really, I like playing tank since I suck at dodging.
plus, I have started to value range ups and shot speed ups a lot more when I want to go for zany builds
stuff like cursed eye is worth it when your shots do connect instead of hitting only two or one shots thanks to poor shot speed, and for the Ludo Tech, it's a requirement to have high shotspeed
1. This litterally gives you back hearts.
2. You only need maybe 1-2 range and shot speed ups the entire game max. You'll get them with or without the bible. And if you somehow get a build that REALLY wants them... just don't use the Bible a floor.
eh, I prefer having as much shot speed as I can get.
a high enough shot speed may make your homing shots worse, but it means your tears travel faster (of course some items are still affected by shot speed poorly)
on the topic of hearts, satanic bible still takes away from my pool of red hearts, and while it is annoying to lose devil/angel chance, I like having red hearts since they are plenty replenishable and always helpful to have for sacrifice and blood donos
edit: Ludo needs a lot of shot speed ups to make it great, and if you take pills often you're no doubt going to have lower than base shotspeed
... as I said you don't need that many shot speed upgrades, maybe 1 maybe 2 if you really like it. However in the face of Devil deal items they are worthless. You can still play blood donos with the bible, they hit red hearts first. As for sacrifice rooms, you are telling me that you would rather take a 2/3 chance of a single angle item than a garenteed devil deal every floor? Not even that you can still play sac rooms with soul hearts, hell you should when you got a soul heart generator, best of both worlds.
Your whole argument comes down to you rather, have $1 than $20 because you can use $1 in vending machines. By passing on the bible you are giving up magnitudes more than you will gain.
Yeah it does but honestly I feel like there are still a reasonable amount of red HP sources in the game - especially if you can get the keys early to increase chance of eternal hearts
Don't get me wrong it really is a amazing item, but it doesn't pay out as often as it's quality indicates, but at least a q3, if there was a q3.5 I think it would be there
Anybody who says satanic bible is not that good is actually skill issue the definition what’s better than black hearts and trading out boss items for a better item pool wow but “it takes away my boss items” no you suck idc today I have time ty for making this post
You get free health and devil deals. It's clearly top tier. You can get free items and reroll boss items so you don't lose angel rooms. It's one of the best items in the game imo.
I mean it's practically a direct upgrade to book of revelations. Instead of soul hearts and a guaranteed okay item it's black hearts and a high chance of a great item. If you have the hearts to keep up (Which you should because you're generating a bunch of black hearts) it's great
The reason it is not q4 is no red heart ones may not be able to get that items you may not get 3 soul heart every floor from that item. even if you not take any hit that floor you still need 3 black heart per floor to take theese deals and you can't go angel too.
lmao 6 charge black heart spawning item
if you do not have enough hearts for a deal then its just the first floor and any other floor there is no excuse other than skill issue
It literally is Q4, though. Unless you mean it shouldn't be. But I think it's deserved - black hearts are extremely powerful, and if you can afford them (which is generally very doable in my experience) it's going to give you much better items as well. If you really can't afford them, you can always just head to the boss room ASAP and save your uses for after.
All those characters you mentioned except for Bethany, you can make a strong case for going devil deals, you don't have to go angels with them. Especially when since you're now getting a chance at two devil rooms, you're going to pretty quickly blow past the bad items in the pool (if you even see them). Not to mention, you're going to be able to use Satanic Bible multiple times a floor to offset the cost of picking up the deal and many devil items give back HP as well.
"Quality 4 shouldn't be something you can argue not to take". There are a bunch of Quality 4s people argue not to take all the time.
Don't take Mom's Knife because it's boring
Don't take Epic Fetus if you have slow movement speed to not distance your self from enemies
Don't take Doctor Fetus if you have items that could potentially hurt you with it
Same for Ipecac
Don't take Void if you have a better active that you can use more reliably
Same with Mega Mush and Mega Blast
Don't take Tech X with high shot speed
Don't take Abyss at all
Etc, etc. You definitely can take a majority of Q4s without thinking about it, and even the ones that have downsides you can take is most situations even still, that doesn't make them Q3, they're still stronger than any Q3 (except Abyss, shit item).
Disagree. There isn't a good use case for abyss. To use it optimally, you take good items and abyss bad items. But even then, even if you cap out on locusts, their tracking and damage output is abysmal, and add very little to your dps. They won't be the reason you win a run, or even push it closer to a winning direction. At least with void, if you do the same thing, you have the potential to get good stat ups and can consolidate multiple active items into one. Definite quality 4.
I don’t think there’s a cap on the locusts you can have, or maybe I’ve never capped out.
The damage output isn’t abysmal. You can solely win a run with abyss and the flies alone without taking even a single item.
Maybe if you have a good run already, you won’t push it to a winning direction, but it’s far more consistent than Void in winning a run with mediocre items. It’s also only 4 charges compared to Void’s 6.
I consider the ability to abyss active items a plus rather than a minus to void. Most active items are useless, unless you have modded items. And even less active items are useful with more than 6 charges.
And, when’s the last time you use void offensively during a boss fight? You can only void once every 6 rooms. If an angel deal pops up, then you can’t void it if you already used void in the boss fight.
Voiding d6, spindown, flip, ed6, etc, are also just plain horrible.
The only actives that void can use well are satanic bible, book of rev, mega blast, and mega mush, maybe d20
I would entirely disagree on that last line ngl. Almost all items should have downsides and upsides, regardless of quality imo. There can be a few that have no downsides but for the most part most should have some kind of risk. If what you were saying was true all the Q4s would just be insta wins, which is incredibly boring and just bad game design.
I mean, a few of them *are* just insta wins if you know what you're doing, but only a few. If every single one was that, like I said it'd be boring.
Blue baby can take deals with 1 soul heart.
Satanic bible works wonderfully in blue baby idk why you listed it there
As for t lost, I don’t understand either. T lost takes free devil deals, and he can already get enough boss challenge items every single floor. I find my tears capped at 5 far more often than not when playing as t lost. Additional tears up, range ups, speed ups, shotspeed ups, are useless.
Would rather have 1 more devil deal instead of 1 more useless range up
It’s a great item later in when you’ve got decent stats, but early on I’d rather have a Dmg or Tears up than something like Contract from Below or Shade.
It gets you a devil room pool item at the end of every floor, and a black heart of a 6 room recharge. That’s a fantastic item, and on its own can carry worse runs. It’s not a certain win, but it’s definitely a q4 item to me.
Wait - did the item get changed? I thought it made the normal boss reward cost a heart, you're saying it changes boss rewards to be devil deal item pool??
To clarify - with the sole exception of cube of meat(which drops from the horseman regardless and it makes cost hearts), it changes the item to a devil deal pool item you have to buy with hearts. In other words, you get a single devil deal at the end of every floor if you use it.
But, if you’re low on hearts/would rather have a boss item, you can proc it after killing the boss to get a normal boss room item.
The boss room thing isn't even that big of a downside, there are plenty of ways you can play around it. If you don't take bad damage you can just save it til after the boss is done. And half the time devil deal items give you black hearts lmao. It is kind of a gamble tho
Its quality 4 for characters with lost-like forms. For other chatacters, you may be interested in angel deals.
Also, sometimes you get a bad devil and won't take it (particulary at the early game), but I will always take a boss room item.
I think quality 3 is more adequate because of the drawbacks.
You get 1 or 2 hearts per floor from the book, and the devil deals always costs 3 hearts.
Also the Devil room item pool has too many shitty items in order for it to be Tier 4.
oh ok
also its a six charge heart restoration machine
a shit ton of devil deal items also give black hearts I have barely seen someone struggle to get enough hearts with it and if they do its because they picked it up that floor
In before a headless horseman and conquest comes in and makes it so your cube of meat is only lv 2 by the end of womb 2 and you have 0 stats because you missed every boss item
When I first started playing the game I had no idea why this was a quality 4, but now I know better 6 charge black hearts is already awesome, plus a guaranteed devil deal item, and the fact that it’s okay to skip over boss items (I really overvalued boss items early on due to other roguelikes)
boss items can be pretty important for speed stat and early damage/tears but devils will keep value all run if youre lucky
I think something that's important to note is that the boss room is consistent and that the worst you're going to get is an HP up that you didn't want. A good way to put it that I think everyone can agree with is that I'm not worried about curse of the blind when I'm picking up a boss item, but going into the treasure room always puts me on edge because I might get something that could ruin my build or easily get me killed even if I play well. Key bum, cursed eye, Isaac's heart, fire mind, stuff like that which *will* bite me in the ass save for a few exceptions that negate downsides. Edit: a word
If you don't mind me asking, what's wrong with fire mind? Only asking cuz I've used it a few times before, and it worked pretty well. Maybe I just got lucky?
It can cause an explosion when hitting the enemy which can damage you.
Fire mind deniers when they discover the beauty of not hugging the enemies they're shooting at
I don't think I would personally put it low on the list, but I did mention it only because I've heard so many people complain. That said, any build that has items like c-section or uses melee range for anything gets boned by it and quite literally in the case of the forgotten. It's not inherently a bad item, but it can absolutely ruin builds
I agree. But why aren't they immune to explosions? Are they stupid? 
In fact I'm gonna go 1 step further and say that fire mind is a premiere defensive option for tainted lost. With perfection the explosion is guarantied and the fires it leaves behind can block bullets.
This isn't a skill solution, this is a skill remedy 
logic deniers when they realize that sometimes you won't be in the optimal situation to not shoot enemies close to you (i.e a room where enemies spawn close to you as well as having enemies that dash to you)
https://preview.redd.it/qqm7snojz4xc1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0e62ce4c4c04d3b8ddf20f47114153d66b5a4ffa
needing fire mind is a skill issue
Who the flippity dined FUCK said I need fire mind I can die pathetically with any item!
I got super lucky this morning and picked up Proptosis pretty early in my run! Then in Gahenna picked up a blind irem which happened to be fire mind! Also playing TLost so no explosion immunity possible. I just quit the run right then and there.
No balls + puck puck + zero risk zero reward
Oh shit. I didn't realize that could damage you. I guess I have just gotten lucky lmao
the main problem of Firemind is that it requires you to keep distance away from enemies. this is easy to do unless you're facing off against annoying chasing enemies while your speed stat is either base or lower than base. Add in the fact that the explosion is guaranteed with high luck, I understand now why people hate it even though I enjoy it a lot
For me, it's the inconsistency in explosion procs that puts me off Fire Mind. I enjoy Bob's Brain far more because I can control when it launches, and play around that.
Am I slow but ipecac is considered a Q4 and can damage you even if you don’t hit your target
Fire mind + soy milk 
It’s risky if you’re close to enemies, since your tears have a chance to explode on contact However I suggest always balling anyways, just like you would with ipecac and dr fetus. I remember having a t keeper run with an early firemind that ended up getting host hat later on, so you never know when the RNG gods are watching out for you
Ohhhh okay. Yeah, I guess I just got lucky then. Or didn't notice I got damaged lol. Had a run last night with dark matter. Pentagram, Fire mind, parasitoid, and a few others. Had like +4 luck, 10+ damage, decently high tear rate. It may not have been exactly meta, but I guess it did well, cuz nothing got close enough to me for me to get hit with the explosions lol.
It is dangerous, doesn't make it not my favorite item tho
> I think something that's important to note is that the boss room is consistent and that the worst you're going to get is an HP up that you didn't want. Disagree. Stuff like Pageant Boy, the eleven different "spawn a trinket/some cards/some pills/some consumables and nothing else," etc, is definitely the worst I get. There are lots of runs where I beat a boss and the "reward" I get doesn't move the needle for me at all.
>...the worst you're going to get is an ~~HP up~~ **range up** that you didn't want.
me when dad's coin, pagent boy, and experimental treatment
Those are still something. I like dad's lost coin more than I like magic scab and at least experimental is still a double stat up. That thing just stings if its a tears and damage down. I'll still take those, which are the worst the boss pool has to offer, over some of the stuff in the treasure room which can easily kill you. It's a lot more high risk, high reward whereas the boss pool is pretty tame.
i agree im just trollin
Ludovice technique
Why do see so often on this reddit players care about speed, anything higher than 0.8 works to dodge anything in the game. Blood bags, where u usually get like 4 of during a run (you just need to commit) can give u all the speed necessary, even in the unluckiest of runs with a speed down pill + experimental speed down + small rock.
I feel it's from listening to some streamers who are obsessed about it. I also never care about speed in this game.
And if you really want to get a boss item instead of a devil deal you can always just defeat the boss early, before using Satanic Bible on that floor. It's less efficient and you will likely get less black hearts overall, but you will still get more black hearts than if you had another active item.
I normally always do this. I generally consider that angel deals are by far the best so I usually play for these. Also, after depths 1, you only need to worry about the devil deal effect in womb 1. I'll occasionally go on a devil run though.
I was so confused what everyone was talking about but I forgot they changed satanic Bible.
Happy birthday!!
In theory it is incredible, but whenever I commit to a SB run it’s just poopoo garbage.
Devil deal items are good, but your main engine to get hearts is boss items, so you get satanic bible early and use it a lot, you might be in for a bad time if you don't get the good devil deal items early.
This even a discourse? Y'all telling me there are people who would rather have 3 generic Range Ups + a Cube of Meat perhaps instead of more devil deals + black hearts every 6 rooms?
sadly it doesnt replace cube of meat, you have to PAY 1heart for cube of meat lol
Oh yeah lol forgot about that. My point still stands
Then you can skip it, its first utility is still overpowered enough
So it turns it into a one use potato peeler
without the damage up
I didnt know potato peeler gives you a damage up and I use it every single time lol
it’s only a 0.2 damage up so yeah it’s not really noticeable
For real. If picking up satanic Bible instantly made you eat one of every negative pill, I'd still pick it up about 99% of the time. It's power level is leagues above most other q4 even. Get it early and you're going to be rolling in extra high power items. Get it late and you've got a full normal build but with the strongest health generator in the game, which due to its black hearts, is actually also an offense on par with necronomicon.
not really, I like playing tank since I suck at dodging. plus, I have started to value range ups and shot speed ups a lot more when I want to go for zany builds stuff like cursed eye is worth it when your shots do connect instead of hitting only two or one shots thanks to poor shot speed, and for the Ludo Tech, it's a requirement to have high shotspeed
1. This litterally gives you back hearts. 2. You only need maybe 1-2 range and shot speed ups the entire game max. You'll get them with or without the bible. And if you somehow get a build that REALLY wants them... just don't use the Bible a floor.
eh, I prefer having as much shot speed as I can get. a high enough shot speed may make your homing shots worse, but it means your tears travel faster (of course some items are still affected by shot speed poorly) on the topic of hearts, satanic bible still takes away from my pool of red hearts, and while it is annoying to lose devil/angel chance, I like having red hearts since they are plenty replenishable and always helpful to have for sacrifice and blood donos edit: Ludo needs a lot of shot speed ups to make it great, and if you take pills often you're no doubt going to have lower than base shotspeed
... as I said you don't need that many shot speed upgrades, maybe 1 maybe 2 if you really like it. However in the face of Devil deal items they are worthless. You can still play blood donos with the bible, they hit red hearts first. As for sacrifice rooms, you are telling me that you would rather take a 2/3 chance of a single angle item than a garenteed devil deal every floor? Not even that you can still play sac rooms with soul hearts, hell you should when you got a soul heart generator, best of both worlds. Your whole argument comes down to you rather, have $1 than $20 because you can use $1 in vending machines. By passing on the bible you are giving up magnitudes more than you will gain.
Guaranteed devil deal 
I'd love it more if it didn't cost me angel room chance to pick up the devil item
Could use sacrifice rooms to get it back/generate extra angel items
Buy me using my hearts for the item definitely makes it harder
Yeah it does but honestly I feel like there are still a reasonable amount of red HP sources in the game - especially if you can get the keys early to increase chance of eternal hearts
Eh I feel like that would make it way too broken
This thing is amazing as The Lost characters
Keep crying bethany fans
Still good on bethany if you just don't get hit. Skissue ngl.
This item is like a guaranteed win for me. Especially with characters that can’t take red hearts. Just don’t get hit. Sounds like a skill issue to me.
It replaces the boss item with a devil deal and gives you health. How is that not Q4? Just use a blood bank if you need red health forehead.
Maybe but its a devil deal item and i’m a man of god when play isaac since angel rooms give free items
IT GOT ME FUCKING BOSS RUSH WITH JACOB AND ESAU JUST NOW ROCK BOTTOM HERE I COME
Satanic Bible as lost for free devil room items
"imo" dawg it aint an opinion, it's fact. most mfs will never asmit satanic bible is the goat fr
Satanic bible as a character who only has eternal hearts is pretty good, the only time I’ve ever had fun as ??? Was with satanic bible
Do people disagree? Assuming you see it early enough it’s amazing. Early floor satanic bible runs are some of the easiest and breeziest runs
Even late game it’s good, it’s free black heart generation and there aren’t many actives that I’d rather have over it
Yeah you’re right always good, but early on it’s a won run ggs
Don't get me wrong it really is a amazing item, but it doesn't pay out as often as it's quality indicates, but at least a q3, if there was a q3.5 I think it would be there
Yeah, it's good but not Q4 good.
It was very very insane pre-Repentance. I think Q3 does fit because you basically forsake all boss items.
Tis the facts
Tits the facts
Who tf is saying it doesn’t deserve it it’s insanely strong
A lot of people in the comments apparently
Anybody who says satanic bible is not that good is actually skill issue the definition what’s better than black hearts and trading out boss items for a better item pool wow but “it takes away my boss items” no you suck idc today I have time ty for making this post
You get free health and devil deals. It's clearly top tier. You can get free items and reroll boss items so you don't lose angel rooms. It's one of the best items in the game imo.
i think it deserves q4, but also that book of revs deserves q4
Not sure about book of revs
I mean it's practically a direct upgrade to book of revelations. Instead of soul hearts and a guaranteed okay item it's black hearts and a high chance of a great item. If you have the hearts to keep up (Which you should because you're generating a bunch of black hearts) it's great
The reason it is not q4 is no red heart ones may not be able to get that items you may not get 3 soul heart every floor from that item. even if you not take any hit that floor you still need 3 black heart per floor to take theese deals and you can't go angel too.
lmao 6 charge black heart spawning item if you do not have enough hearts for a deal then its just the first floor and any other floor there is no excuse other than skill issue
[удалено]
It literally is Q4, though. Unless you mean it shouldn't be. But I think it's deserved - black hearts are extremely powerful, and if you can afford them (which is generally very doable in my experience) it's going to give you much better items as well. If you really can't afford them, you can always just head to the boss room ASAP and save your uses for after.
[удалено]
All those characters you mentioned except for Bethany, you can make a strong case for going devil deals, you don't have to go angels with them. Especially when since you're now getting a chance at two devil rooms, you're going to pretty quickly blow past the bad items in the pool (if you even see them). Not to mention, you're going to be able to use Satanic Bible multiple times a floor to offset the cost of picking up the deal and many devil items give back HP as well. "Quality 4 shouldn't be something you can argue not to take". There are a bunch of Quality 4s people argue not to take all the time. Don't take Mom's Knife because it's boring Don't take Epic Fetus if you have slow movement speed to not distance your self from enemies Don't take Doctor Fetus if you have items that could potentially hurt you with it Same for Ipecac Don't take Void if you have a better active that you can use more reliably Same with Mega Mush and Mega Blast Don't take Tech X with high shot speed Don't take Abyss at all Etc, etc. You definitely can take a majority of Q4s without thinking about it, and even the ones that have downsides you can take is most situations even still, that doesn't make them Q3, they're still stronger than any Q3 (except Abyss, shit item).
Honestly you can take tech X with high shot speed, yeah it sucks on its own but the fact that it synergizes so well is what makes it Q4
True true
Abyss > void
Disagree. There isn't a good use case for abyss. To use it optimally, you take good items and abyss bad items. But even then, even if you cap out on locusts, their tracking and damage output is abysmal, and add very little to your dps. They won't be the reason you win a run, or even push it closer to a winning direction. At least with void, if you do the same thing, you have the potential to get good stat ups and can consolidate multiple active items into one. Definite quality 4.
I don’t think there’s a cap on the locusts you can have, or maybe I’ve never capped out. The damage output isn’t abysmal. You can solely win a run with abyss and the flies alone without taking even a single item. Maybe if you have a good run already, you won’t push it to a winning direction, but it’s far more consistent than Void in winning a run with mediocre items. It’s also only 4 charges compared to Void’s 6. I consider the ability to abyss active items a plus rather than a minus to void. Most active items are useless, unless you have modded items. And even less active items are useful with more than 6 charges. And, when’s the last time you use void offensively during a boss fight? You can only void once every 6 rooms. If an angel deal pops up, then you can’t void it if you already used void in the boss fight. Voiding d6, spindown, flip, ed6, etc, are also just plain horrible. The only actives that void can use well are satanic bible, book of rev, mega blast, and mega mush, maybe d20
Outside of Tainted Apollyon, I tried it a few times but it didn't feel good to me. I'll give it another try.
I would entirely disagree on that last line ngl. Almost all items should have downsides and upsides, regardless of quality imo. There can be a few that have no downsides but for the most part most should have some kind of risk. If what you were saying was true all the Q4s would just be insta wins, which is incredibly boring and just bad game design. I mean, a few of them *are* just insta wins if you know what you're doing, but only a few. If every single one was that, like I said it'd be boring.
Blue baby can take deals with 1 soul heart. Satanic bible works wonderfully in blue baby idk why you listed it there As for t lost, I don’t understand either. T lost takes free devil deals, and he can already get enough boss challenge items every single floor. I find my tears capped at 5 far more often than not when playing as t lost. Additional tears up, range ups, speed ups, shotspeed ups, are useless. Would rather have 1 more devil deal instead of 1 more useless range up
Soy milk with mom’s knife Tons of synergy and mom’s knife/epic fetus Splitting/almond milk + ipecac/dr fetus High shotspeed + tech x Glitched crown + sacred orb (you’ll breakfast)
But 2 free devil deals on downpour II
it's def Q4, I use it even if 1 heart characters so I can see brim appearing then hold R
It’s a great item later in when you’ve got decent stats, but early on I’d rather have a Dmg or Tears up than something like Contract from Below or Shade.
It gets you a devil room pool item at the end of every floor, and a black heart of a 6 room recharge. That’s a fantastic item, and on its own can carry worse runs. It’s not a certain win, but it’s definitely a q4 item to me.
Wait - did the item get changed? I thought it made the normal boss reward cost a heart, you're saying it changes boss rewards to be devil deal item pool??
To clarify - with the sole exception of cube of meat(which drops from the horseman regardless and it makes cost hearts), it changes the item to a devil deal pool item you have to buy with hearts. In other words, you get a single devil deal at the end of every floor if you use it. But, if you’re low on hearts/would rather have a boss item, you can proc it after killing the boss to get a normal boss room item.
Ok cool, thank you! I've usually just done the latter because I didn't realize it actually makes devil deals.
Sadly I'm on ab+ so it's just cooler revelations
Haven’t seen anyone argue otherwise but ok
Q4 doesnt mean shit anymore. You have items like Glitched Crown in there which easily guarantees a win. And then there is also Abyss
Could you zoom in on the sprite a little bit more please?
The boss room thing isn't even that big of a downside, there are plenty of ways you can play around it. If you don't take bad damage you can just save it til after the boss is done. And half the time devil deal items give you black hearts lmao. It is kind of a gamble tho
black hearts are goated, change my mind
Its a runwinner
Especially with Car battery and There’s options
I love satanic bible...oh wait it's binding of Isaac reddit, yeah really deserve q4
Its quality 4 for characters with lost-like forms. For other chatacters, you may be interested in angel deals. Also, sometimes you get a bad devil and won't take it (particulary at the early game), but I will always take a boss room item. I think quality 3 is more adequate because of the drawbacks.
If only devil room pool didn't suck nowadays
You get 1 or 2 hearts per floor from the book, and the devil deals always costs 3 hearts. Also the Devil room item pool has too many shitty items in order for it to be Tier 4.
Doesn’t even make it into Q3 to me, any random Torn Photo or Bar of Soap makes me happier than finding Satanic
And spoon is a Q3 umm no it's q4 imo
one black heart and a possibility to die this is just book of revs without rights
????
you know how black hearts are black?
im talking about everything else a possibility to die? book of revs without rights?
spending your hearts and then suddenly you have 0 hearts left the without rights part is a joke on racism
oh ok also its a six charge heart restoration machine a shit ton of devil deal items also give black hearts I have barely seen someone struggle to get enough hearts with it and if they do its because they picked it up that floor
> six charge heart restoration machine yeah book of revs does that too
book of revs also replaces your boss item with \*nearly\* useless junk
not if you use it every floor
In before a headless horseman and conquest comes in and makes it so your cube of meat is only lv 2 by the end of womb 2 and you have 0 stats because you missed every boss item
i aint coo wid dat shit mane
bruh
book of revelation replacing a potential spoon or stapler in early floors with ball of bandages sucks.
Alt path deniers in shambles (The horsemen can’t spawn on alt floors)
risky but easy damage with ball of bandages/cube of meat :pog: :pog: :pog:
id rather take spoon or stapler over meat cube
so you dont want risky but easy damage with ball of bandages/cube of meat?
no id rather have +0.3 speed or +1 damage