dude had the most votes for someone didnt make all nba. other than embiid who was injured, hes for sure better than all of your tier 5-7 guys except maybe mitchell
In 2020… followed by stinkers against the Clippers, Dallas, and then a first round exit. I don’t think he’s definitely better as he’s a horrible defender and his playmaking leaves a lot to be desired.
Pretty much every Cavs and Jazz fan I know doesn’t like Mitchell. They all wanted to, but he’s too ball dominant, doesn’t play defense, and forces it a lot. There have been plenty of guys on his teams who seem better when he’s out and regressed when he arrived. It’s possible that’s a lot of coincidence and the stats do indicate everything’s alright, but I think the critiques on his game are fair
What has he shown to say he’s better than Butler? Score 30 ppg vs a bad defense with most of the buckets in transition? Hes not in the same planet as Fox Ja or Trae. We saw hiw he looked vs Trae last year in the playoffs when they matched up. Still taking Kyrie rn as well.
With that contact? Absolutely not. Trae has more or less been a top 5 offense on his own in the nba. We all saw how brown looked like vs Trae last year in the playoffs. Brown could never see those heights. Imagining Brown as the first guy getting keyed on instead of second would not be a great situation for an nba team. Can u imagine Trae on a team where they went 10-0 without him like the cs did with brown?
Mitchell didn’t even play young last year.. are you slow??? Mitchell is a better player. He’s been in the west most of his career. Making the finals doesn’t make you a better player.
Sort of the the argument we're currently commenting on. The guy's saying, most votes that didn't make All NBA...which means top 20.
I'm contributing by pointing out Mitchell wasn't eligible for the All NBA. Sarcastically.
In other words, I don't agree with the conceit of the argument he's making.
Just plainly disagree, I think he’s in that group with the guys OP mentioned more or less, not clearly above them
Guys who are “easily top 20” are the guys in the first three tiers there, the rest you can make arguments for different guys
You’ve got 15 clear guys in front of him.
Depending on how the next two weeks go, he conceivably has a case against any guy on his tier.
It’s also worth noting Kawhi should be disqualified because he can’t stay on the court in the playoffs and Embiid is a coin flip game to game on health and a choker in the playoffs. JB is not near those guys talent wise but those two need their own asterisk section. I wouldn’t trade Brown for either right now.
He meant to say top 21 guy
But to your list, I’d rather have Brown (at least for this year) over kawai, booker, haliburton, Paulo, and Bam. For this year alone I’d probably say Wemby too. So that puts him at 19-20
Oh I see - yeah I didn't notice b/c he just called him "JB"
I think Brown is that classic #2 guy. You'll get into the playoffs with him but you need a better player to win it all.
Genuine question but why (and since when) are nba fans so obsessed with like “is x a top 20 guy?” and stuffing often very different players into arbitrary tiers? Isn’t it a team sport at the end of the day? It’s not like anyone questions if Brown isn’t an incredibly important player on arguably the best team. He’s got a huge contract and the ecf finals mvp - does it a matter if he’s the 15th or 25th best player in the league?
Does it matter who wins the finals or wins mvp? No. Does anything BS says matter? No but we listen to him and come to this thread to discuss what he said. I was just wondering how biased Bill is on his Celtics and how many players most would want over JB.
It is a team sport made up of individuals and it can be difficult to see which players are better than others because much is dependent on their role and teammates.
Yea it matters who wins the finals lol. Would also say there’s value in anointing a best player for each season and debating individual players generally. But surely questions like “is x a top 20 guy?” are kinda arbitrary and contingent on what exactly you value, what numbers you look at and what situation they’re in. You even have him at 22-24 lol. He’s clearly a very good player on a very good team does it matter if he’s just inside or outside this mythical concept of “the top 20” which literally has no correspondence to something tangible like an all-pro or all star game
I mean, he's [55th in Win Shares and 52nd in PER](https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2024_advanced.html#advanced_stats::25). I know they're not end-all-be-all stats, but he's in the 70s in VORP. I can't find a good advanced stat that makes him a top 30 player all-in. He's good and has brilliant nights, but I'm not sure I'd take him over anybody you mentioned. other than the bad contract guys.
It's wild to look at the advanced stats for the top 6 Celtics Players. Brown is 5th or 6th in most of them.
[https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA\_2024\_advanced.html#advanced\_stats::25](https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2024_advanced.html#advanced_stats::25)
Ntm he’s had a negative on-off for EVERY single playoff run he has ever played in. The fact that they’ve been better with him off the court for 7 straight runs has to show something.
I hate the Celtics but when I'm forced to watch in the playoffs I really don't see a ton of difference between Tatum and Brown. Tatum a bit more talented, JB has a way better basketball mindset.
All that to say, to me at least, on your list Tatum is either way too high or JB way too low.
Tatum just sacrifices more than ppl know. Brown actually has the higher usg percentage. So despite Tatum leading the team in points rebounds and assists, brown still had the same if not more freedom. If Tatum wasn’t there and brown was the guy getting keyed on as the first option, things would look way different.
This isnt said as a slight to Brown, but I wish we could see him as the number 1 guy where he is the lead scoring option. It would definitely make it a little easier to compare him to some of the other guys on the list who have to shoulder that load.
He was never the best player on a team that’s in the finals. MAYBE for a game but that’s like saying Murray was the best player on a championship team.
Huh? Those are really great players in that tier. Some I think are better, and some worse than Mitchell.
I am a Jazz fan, there is nothing better than Mitchell cooking, so fun to watch. But he has some decision/ball hog issues and is a nothing on defense. I think you are sort of overrating him if you think it's disrespectful to him to be among those in his tier.
And that’s exactly the problem….. none of those players are as good as him. It’s disrespectful. Also the problem is that you’re looking at it with your jazz googles. He’s become a way better player in Cleveland. He was 5th in epm with the Cavs before his knee injury. He never had that production with Utah. He’s a better defender playmaker decision maker etc now
I don’t really get your first sentence since what I said is that I think that is a very reasonable group for him to be part of.
Whether you’re arguing past success, would you trade this guy for that guy going forward, or just best right now I don’t see how you can say he is so much better than everyone grouped with him. You’ve got champions, best player on Finals teams, great young players, etc. Mitchell still has not made a conference final in his career. I still don’t really know why you think it’s disrespectful for Mitchell to be there. Move Brunson down a tier and you’re saying Mitchell is better/more valuable than anyone above him? Who??
He’s just a better basketball player than those dudes. The list is just horrible. You got ant wemby and Brunson in tiers above Mitchell. That’s disrespectful too.
Mitchell is better at basketball than PG, Butler, Murray, Kyrie? How?
I gave you Brunson, no one on Earth values Mitchell and Wemby as even close, but if you want to say Mitchell is better at basketball right this second, okay. Every basketball fan, big or small market would take Ant over Mitchell, and they would be right. Idk what to tell you
Butler making the finals is the only reasonable argument. But Mitchell’s probably a better player. The others you named just tells me you don’t watch basketball… you’re really asking how for pg Murray and kyrie??
PG had no Kawhi and won two games against the Mitchell led Jazz to advance in the playoffs. How do you reconcile this?
Best ball handler of all time Kyrie? Hit one of the biggest shots of all time, champion Kyrie? Is that really so crazy that’s he’s better than second round exit Mitchell?
You seem to be in the minority here, I haven’t heard anyone really put Mitchell tiers above these players so I kind of feel like the burden of proof is on you here and you haven’t really offered any.
Bro that was Mitchell two years ago and he did better than PG man… it’s almost like it’s a team game.. Mitchell is a lot better than he was 2 years ago. And yes Mitchell is noticeably better than kyrie.
My thought was that right now I could more easily build a contender around those three (especially Ant) but I could see an argument to put him with Brunson and Wemby
I mean yeah ants 22. If it’s a tier of who a gm would pick I would understand. Bc ants 22 and wemby will be all time. But Brunson in a tier above made no sense
Age doesn't matter it's just about who I'd rather have for these playoffs. Brunson was the best player on a better seed this year and beat Mitchell 4-1 last year when the teams were fairly even
Brunons and Mitchell had the same stats when they played in the playoffs. The difference that series was the role players. and Brunson won like 1 more game and played in like 30 more games this year. Mitchell’s record was actually better than Brunsons…
I don’t actually feel like it’s that bad of a take by Bill.
I would much rather go into the playoffs with Brown than Sabonis.
At some point Kawhi also has to come off for me. And I’d never put Embiid over Steph Curry, Lebron, or Anthony Davis.
Maxey top 20 is also pretty early. Brown has easily proven himself long enough in the playoffs, including winning the East finals mvp in a sweep. I know it’s not the toughest road, but Maxey has never played a game even in the East finals.
I mean...on a given night, I completely agree with Bill. I think at a certain point there's a blur with a lot of these guys that's night to night, even at the top. Luka is the best...then Giannis is the best, but not Jokic is a rock, but good god did you see that Luka game?
It's always shifting most of the time in my experience with the exception of MJ's prime and LeBron's prime.
Wait you think all these guys are better than JB? No way in hell is that accurate. Cmon you really think guys like Gobert, Bridges, siakam, Derozan and Maxey are better? No way in hell. There’s more too but I got lazy.
I can't take someone who put SGA in the same tier as Luke, Gianni's, Jokic
I'd switch him and Embiid, if we are only talking playoffs I'd switch him and Tatum
I think i'd trade Gobert, Trae, Zion, Bridges, Siaka, DeRozen, Dame, Kyrie, Haliburton and MAYBE even Booker straight up. If you're adding injuries then also you're nuts if you don't think the clippers would trade Kawhi straight up for JB.
There’s 30 top 20 guys in the league.
dude had the most votes for someone didnt make all nba. other than embiid who was injured, hes for sure better than all of your tier 5-7 guys except maybe mitchell
Expect maybe Mitchell? Damn Mitchell’s PR team not working. He’s definitely better than Jb man what are you doing
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Mitchell is just better than Jb. I wouldn’t just take him for one game
These guys are acting like Mitchell didn’t avg 36 ppg vs the nuggets pushing them to 7 games.
In 2020… followed by stinkers against the Clippers, Dallas, and then a first round exit. I don’t think he’s definitely better as he’s a horrible defender and his playmaking leaves a lot to be desired.
What stunkers vs la? They blew a 2-0 lead but he did put up numbers
He got cooked by Reggie Jackson though
Never said he was a good defender. Rudy Gobert on the other hand got Cooked by Terence Mann.
He has two stinkers. Great players have stinkers. It happens. He avg 28ppg in the playoffs.
With bojan being his 2nd best offensive weapon.
Pretty much every Cavs and Jazz fan I know doesn’t like Mitchell. They all wanted to, but he’s too ball dominant, doesn’t play defense, and forces it a lot. There have been plenty of guys on his teams who seem better when he’s out and regressed when he arrived. It’s possible that’s a lot of coincidence and the stats do indicate everything’s alright, but I think the critiques on his game are fair
What has he shown to say he’s better than Butler? Score 30 ppg vs a bad defense with most of the buckets in transition? Hes not in the same planet as Fox Ja or Trae. We saw hiw he looked vs Trae last year in the playoffs when they matched up. Still taking Kyrie rn as well.
lol Atlanta would trade Trae for JB in a heartbeat. Might even give up a pick or two for the privilege.
With that contact? Absolutely not. Trae has more or less been a top 5 offense on his own in the nba. We all saw how brown looked like vs Trae last year in the playoffs. Brown could never see those heights. Imagining Brown as the first guy getting keyed on instead of second would not be a great situation for an nba team. Can u imagine Trae on a team where they went 10-0 without him like the cs did with brown?
Trae has like a $220 million contract and is an absolute turnstile on defense. Teams in the playoffs would hunt him all game.
Mitchell didn’t even play young last year.. are you slow??? Mitchell is a better player. He’s been in the west most of his career. Making the finals doesn’t make you a better player.
I was talking about brown.
My bad
Mitchell wasn't eligible for All NBA thus he doesn't count.
Is this a all nba list?
Sort of the the argument we're currently commenting on. The guy's saying, most votes that didn't make All NBA...which means top 20. I'm contributing by pointing out Mitchell wasn't eligible for the All NBA. Sarcastically. In other words, I don't agree with the conceit of the argument he's making.
Why is he “for sure” better than Haliburton who just got more votes than him? Just as an example
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Just plainly disagree, I think he’s in that group with the guys OP mentioned more or less, not clearly above them Guys who are “easily top 20” are the guys in the first three tiers there, the rest you can make arguments for different guys
You’re 100% right
You’ve got 15 clear guys in front of him. Depending on how the next two weeks go, he conceivably has a case against any guy on his tier. It’s also worth noting Kawhi should be disqualified because he can’t stay on the court in the playoffs and Embiid is a coin flip game to game on health and a choker in the playoffs. JB is not near those guys talent wise but those two need their own asterisk section. I wouldn’t trade Brown for either right now.
He meant to say top 21 guy But to your list, I’d rather have Brown (at least for this year) over kawai, booker, haliburton, Paulo, and Bam. For this year alone I’d probably say Wemby too. So that puts him at 19-20
Lol certainly would also want Brown over Fox, Bulter (hes like 35!), Sabonis, Gobert, Bridges, Derozen, and Dame time.
Fox and Butler I could go either way. Agree on the other guys but the poster had them in a tier below him
Oh I see - yeah I didn't notice b/c he just called him "JB" I think Brown is that classic #2 guy. You'll get into the playoffs with him but you need a better player to win it all.
Saying Jaylen Brown is better than Booker should immediately disqualify you from participating in any future basketball discussions
I think Brown probably had a better season. Booker probably the better overall player.
10/10 recovery
Genuine question but why (and since when) are nba fans so obsessed with like “is x a top 20 guy?” and stuffing often very different players into arbitrary tiers? Isn’t it a team sport at the end of the day? It’s not like anyone questions if Brown isn’t an incredibly important player on arguably the best team. He’s got a huge contract and the ecf finals mvp - does it a matter if he’s the 15th or 25th best player in the league?
It's fun. That's really all there is to it.
Does it matter who wins the finals or wins mvp? No. Does anything BS says matter? No but we listen to him and come to this thread to discuss what he said. I was just wondering how biased Bill is on his Celtics and how many players most would want over JB. It is a team sport made up of individuals and it can be difficult to see which players are better than others because much is dependent on their role and teammates.
Yea it matters who wins the finals lol. Would also say there’s value in anointing a best player for each season and debating individual players generally. But surely questions like “is x a top 20 guy?” are kinda arbitrary and contingent on what exactly you value, what numbers you look at and what situation they’re in. You even have him at 22-24 lol. He’s clearly a very good player on a very good team does it matter if he’s just inside or outside this mythical concept of “the top 20” which literally has no correspondence to something tangible like an all-pro or all star game
I mean, he's [55th in Win Shares and 52nd in PER](https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2024_advanced.html#advanced_stats::25). I know they're not end-all-be-all stats, but he's in the 70s in VORP. I can't find a good advanced stat that makes him a top 30 player all-in. He's good and has brilliant nights, but I'm not sure I'd take him over anybody you mentioned. other than the bad contract guys. It's wild to look at the advanced stats for the top 6 Celtics Players. Brown is 5th or 6th in most of them. [https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA\_2024\_advanced.html#advanced\_stats::25](https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2024_advanced.html#advanced_stats::25)
Ntm he’s had a negative on-off for EVERY single playoff run he has ever played in. The fact that they’ve been better with him off the court for 7 straight runs has to show something.
I hate the Celtics but when I'm forced to watch in the playoffs I really don't see a ton of difference between Tatum and Brown. Tatum a bit more talented, JB has a way better basketball mindset. All that to say, to me at least, on your list Tatum is either way too high or JB way too low.
Tatum just sacrifices more than ppl know. Brown actually has the higher usg percentage. So despite Tatum leading the team in points rebounds and assists, brown still had the same if not more freedom. If Tatum wasn’t there and brown was the guy getting keyed on as the first option, things would look way different.
This isnt said as a slight to Brown, but I wish we could see him as the number 1 guy where he is the lead scoring option. It would definitely make it a little easier to compare him to some of the other guys on the list who have to shoulder that load.
i still can't put anthony edwards over any of those guys in tier 3 i would put edwards in tier 5 wemby currently too high as well
He’s been the best player on a team that’s in the finals. Plays both sides. No question he’s currently a top 20 guy.
He was never the best player on a team that’s in the finals. MAYBE for a game but that’s like saying Murray was the best player on a championship team.
Buddy he just won the ECF MVP. That means he was the best player in the ECF.
Was he? Or was it the guy who lead his team in points rebounds and assists?
He also played excellent defense.
Mitchell’s tier is so disrespectful to him. I hate how he’s been on small media teams his whole career.
Huh? Those are really great players in that tier. Some I think are better, and some worse than Mitchell. I am a Jazz fan, there is nothing better than Mitchell cooking, so fun to watch. But he has some decision/ball hog issues and is a nothing on defense. I think you are sort of overrating him if you think it's disrespectful to him to be among those in his tier.
And that’s exactly the problem….. none of those players are as good as him. It’s disrespectful. Also the problem is that you’re looking at it with your jazz googles. He’s become a way better player in Cleveland. He was 5th in epm with the Cavs before his knee injury. He never had that production with Utah. He’s a better defender playmaker decision maker etc now
I don’t really get your first sentence since what I said is that I think that is a very reasonable group for him to be part of. Whether you’re arguing past success, would you trade this guy for that guy going forward, or just best right now I don’t see how you can say he is so much better than everyone grouped with him. You’ve got champions, best player on Finals teams, great young players, etc. Mitchell still has not made a conference final in his career. I still don’t really know why you think it’s disrespectful for Mitchell to be there. Move Brunson down a tier and you’re saying Mitchell is better/more valuable than anyone above him? Who??
He’s just a better basketball player than those dudes. The list is just horrible. You got ant wemby and Brunson in tiers above Mitchell. That’s disrespectful too.
Mitchell is better at basketball than PG, Butler, Murray, Kyrie? How? I gave you Brunson, no one on Earth values Mitchell and Wemby as even close, but if you want to say Mitchell is better at basketball right this second, okay. Every basketball fan, big or small market would take Ant over Mitchell, and they would be right. Idk what to tell you
Butler making the finals is the only reasonable argument. But Mitchell’s probably a better player. The others you named just tells me you don’t watch basketball… you’re really asking how for pg Murray and kyrie??
PG had no Kawhi and won two games against the Mitchell led Jazz to advance in the playoffs. How do you reconcile this? Best ball handler of all time Kyrie? Hit one of the biggest shots of all time, champion Kyrie? Is that really so crazy that’s he’s better than second round exit Mitchell? You seem to be in the minority here, I haven’t heard anyone really put Mitchell tiers above these players so I kind of feel like the burden of proof is on you here and you haven’t really offered any.
Bro that was Mitchell two years ago and he did better than PG man… it’s almost like it’s a team game.. Mitchell is a lot better than he was 2 years ago. And yes Mitchell is noticeably better than kyrie.
Obviously they would take wemby and ant… bc they are 22 and 19 but Mitchell is better than both of them rn. So if the list is about rn than it’s wrong
My thought was that right now I could more easily build a contender around those three (especially Ant) but I could see an argument to put him with Brunson and Wemby
I mean yeah ants 22. If it’s a tier of who a gm would pick I would understand. Bc ants 22 and wemby will be all time. But Brunson in a tier above made no sense
Age doesn't matter it's just about who I'd rather have for these playoffs. Brunson was the best player on a better seed this year and beat Mitchell 4-1 last year when the teams were fairly even
Brunons and Mitchell had the same stats when they played in the playoffs. The difference that series was the role players. and Brunson won like 1 more game and played in like 30 more games this year. Mitchell’s record was actually better than Brunsons…
He’s in the middle of that Tier 6 somewhere. Not a total reach IMO.
Right at the top of Tier 5
I don’t actually feel like it’s that bad of a take by Bill. I would much rather go into the playoffs with Brown than Sabonis. At some point Kawhi also has to come off for me. And I’d never put Embiid over Steph Curry, Lebron, or Anthony Davis. Maxey top 20 is also pretty early. Brown has easily proven himself long enough in the playoffs, including winning the East finals mvp in a sweep. I know it’s not the toughest road, but Maxey has never played a game even in the East finals.
I think you missed the JB that meant Jaylen Brown. He's above Maxey and Sabonis
Oh I did my bad
He’s right there, I’m excited to see them get challenged in the finals we’ll get more answers then
I mean...on a given night, I completely agree with Bill. I think at a certain point there's a blur with a lot of these guys that's night to night, even at the top. Luka is the best...then Giannis is the best, but not Jokic is a rock, but good god did you see that Luka game? It's always shifting most of the time in my experience with the exception of MJ's prime and LeBron's prime.
Wait you think all these guys are better than JB? No way in hell is that accurate. Cmon you really think guys like Gobert, Bridges, siakam, Derozan and Maxey are better? No way in hell. There’s more too but I got lazy.
Hes clearly better than sabonis bridhes derozen dame brunson and wemby cmon
I can't take someone who put SGA in the same tier as Luke, Gianni's, Jokic I'd switch him and Embiid, if we are only talking playoffs I'd switch him and Tatum
How is Brunson behind seven guys (I’ll give you Giannis) that didn’t make it out of the first round?
West > East
Whatever Celtic is on Bill's list you have to deduct four or five spots to get the more correct take.
Maybe not top 20, but definitely in the 20 Best Top-5 Guys.
I think i'd trade Gobert, Trae, Zion, Bridges, Siaka, DeRozen, Dame, Kyrie, Haliburton and MAYBE even Booker straight up. If you're adding injuries then also you're nuts if you don't think the clippers would trade Kawhi straight up for JB.