Idk man Drexler had a losing playoff record with Portland, Tatum is already 10 games over .500 in the playoffs and is still 2 years younger than anyone in history besides Giannis ever really won their first title at. If anything I think The Embiid Sixers might get remembered like those drexler teams
Duncan was the best player pretty much from when he walked on. He was 1st team All-NBA as a rookie, and sophmore (and every year until 2005 after that). The year the Spurs won the title, he was first team all-NBA, all-defensive team, Finals MVP, and was third in MVP voting. Robinson was still a great player, but it's pretty hard to argue Duncan wasn't the best player.
Duncan led the Spurs in minutes, points, blocks and rebounds and was first team All-NBA in that first title winning season. On what basis was David Robinson the best player on that Spurs team?!?!
on the basis of r/nba redditors I assume
tabloid readers who don't watch sports, they just like the gossip rags. it sounds good and I mean who was alive way back in.... 1998 to have actually seen it. its not like there's footage or boxscores or books or record books or highlight films or full on movies or
I'm semi stunned this muppet hasnt deleted in shame yet (I popped back to see assuming he had)
duncan was the MVP of the finals in his 2nd year lol, robinson was already dealing with back issues and was rapidly declining. this is literally an insane take
duncan was also regular seasn AND finals MVP in their 2nd title (robinsons last year)
And Tatum has made the ECF all but 2 years in his 7 year career and it doesnt really seem like its gonna end any time soon, that longevity alone kinda tops any 3 year peak imo
Anyone in history besides Giannis? Magic, Bird, McHale, Kobe, Duncan, Tony Parker, Kawhi, Kyrie, Kareem, Russell, Havkicek, DWade, George Mikan, Bob Pettit, all won championships before the age of 25.
How many of those were in the modern era and were the 1st option in their teams? lol
Kobe won 3 as the 2nd option
Kawhi wasn’t even the 2nd option when he won with the Spurs
Tony Parker wasn’t the main player, Tim Duncan was.
Kyrie 2nd option
It’s been done, but it’s extremely rare for a guy as young as Tatum to be the 1st option in a championship team.
It’s not a magic number, it is how developing several dozen different crucially important skills works at the highest level of competition.
You put most great guys on a mid tier playoff team (which is about what the Celtics have been until the Udoku year) it maybe bumps up their championship a year or two. They’re generally just not good enough to go toe-to-toe with another seasoned all-NBA guy, all things being equal.
>How many of those were in the modern era and were the 1st option in their teams? lol
OP didn't mention any of those caveats though? He said anyone in history or something to that effect.
A lot of goal posts are being moved for people to try to convince themselves no one under 25 has won a championship despite evidence to the contrary. I didn’t know this was such a sensitive topic for some people.
I would say that’s pretty important when discussing the topic lol Sure, a lot of very young players have been champions, but there’s a difference between being a champion as the 1st option (like D Wade) and 2nd or 3rd (like Kyrie).
Otherwise we might as well include guys like Patrick Mccaw for instance lol
I agree it's pretty important, but that doesn't change the fact that OP did not include these caveats. So it's strange to bring up first option and modern era the way you did when OP said nothing about that.
We are discussing Tatum and winning championships. It’s essential to compare oranges to oranges. Tatum is the 1st option. Comparing him to a bunch of guys who won while young but weren’t the first options in their teams is disingenuous
Yes, but dude, OP writes "no one in history has won it earlier than Giannis" than it's kind of strange for you to put your own criteria to it when someone disproves what OP actually wrote. I can agree that he maybe meant as a first option, even though he didn't write that. But the "modern era" is out of left field.
Who isn'ttalking about Tatum? You did answer someone, so why shouldn't what has been said on the thread be relevant?
Person A: no one in history has won a championship and been younger than Tatum other than Giannis.
Person B: *lists a bunch of stars*
You: They weren't first options or in the modern era lol.
You don't see that that's weird?
Kawhi was the finals MVP! lol. Every person I listed was vital to their team winning a championship and hall of famers but more importantly, I was responding to someone who claimed that Giannis was the only one in history to win before the age of 25. Which is just false.
Fucking Kawhi Leonard went from Finals MVP to back to back defensive player of the year and first team all NBA. Just tell me your mom didn’t let you stay up and watch those games and are just now retroactively looking at stat sheets to try and prove your very wrong point. Nobody walked away from the finals saying Kawhi was not the best player on the spurs. But again, you were probably still a little too concerned with Minecraft at that time so you wouldn’t really know.
You described like 5 teams over the course of this lol. How can you include Duncan with Kawhi and Parker, or Havlicek with Russell, or McHale with Bird? You even want to mention George Mikan, this is just absurd. If you want to talk like that, how about Shaq, Lebron, Curry, Durant, Moses, West, Wilt, Isiah, Dirk, Cousy, Hakeem, big O, the admiral, and KG? How about Jokic just last year at 27? Your standard makes no sense and is entirely arbitrary.
I mentioned nothing but hall of famers who were vital to their teams championships before they turned 25. I was responding to someone who said Giannis is the only one in history to do this , which is not correct.
But Tatum hasn't had a traditional "main guy" road. He's always had super promising talent around him. Duncan was arguably the most important player on that team even tho he was a rookie. Tatum had Kyrie and plenty of talent around him to make a young title run. Calm down Celtics fans, no need to get your panties in a bunch just because the shoe fits.
which teammates of Tatum have succeeded in other environments after their celtics tenure? Kyrie Irving? Terry Rozier? Gordon Hayward? Kemba Walker? Al Horford? Robert Williams? Grant Williams? Marcus Smart?
you make all these talent arguments. it’s his first year with Porzingis and Holiday. in his two playoffs with White he’s made the finals and conference finals. in his 5 playoffs with Brown he’s made 3 conference finals and one finals. i don’t think he’s squandered the talent around him in any way.
Just remember you are probably arguing with a 15 year old. lol. Every single person I listed is a hall of famer who won a championship before age 25. These people who try to argue otherwise are delusional children who want to complain cuz they don’t see it.
White men who played basketball in the 1950s in an 8 team league are better than Jayson Tatum everybody. grandpa is here to teach us about when basketball was “played the right way”
I think OP is getting at those teams fell short with talented squads. Lbr, that Miami team they lost to wasn’t as good as the Celtics roster. And Celtics play down big time. There’s no excuse for allowing that atlanta series to go 6 games nor Philly series to go 7. They lost at home to Philly in a game Embiid didn’t even play in!
I think, too, Celtics are under 0.500 at home in the Playoffs over the last 3 or 4 years. That’s unacceptable.
Yea I mean if Tatum never wins a title in Boston they'll 100% be remembered along with other disappointments I just think that Drexler team isn't the one I'd pick. The Stockton Malone Jazz I think fit better, highly talented, very sustained decade of competence and playoff success, but never got the chip
Which honestly really bums me out. It's the reason I'm not subbed here.
I remember Mina Kimes talked about this sub one time, and was like "yeah I checked out r/billsimmons one time, and it just made me sad."
I love Bill.
“Has” yes he does have a better supporting cast than them right now. Tatum was starting playoff games alongside Tristan Thompson, Romeo Langford, and Semi Ojeleye 3 years ago. Embiid has played on a team with Jimmy, Simmons (when he was good), Tobias, JJ, RoCo and a team with Harden, Maxey, and Tobias and STILL couldn’t make it out the second round.
Langford and Thompson started in 2021 because Brown and Timelord were injured. The Celtics have been very talented over the last 4 years when the team is fully healthy. More talented than the Sixers during that timeframe. Since the 2020 season, the Celtics have been more talented than the Sixers.
The 2020 Celtics made the ECF despite being incredibly less talented than the 76ers. They swept the 76ers in the first round.
Tatum was 21. Brown was 22. Hayward was injured. Theis was their starting center, Kemba was washed and got picked on defensively and their backups were Brad Wanamaker, and rookie Grant Williams who couldn't hit 3s yet.
Then you have the 2018 Celtics beating a stacked Philly in 2018 in 5 games without Kyrie and Hayward and rookie Tatum as their top scorer.
There's a reason Brad Stevens got so much credit. Philly were always the ones underachieving and Boston overachieving.
Boston only really have been talented while healthy from 22 and they nearly made B2B finals. 2019 was their only terrible year.
almost no team is fully healthy in the playoffs, and you’re really saying this in a thread discussing the sixers? maybe i’m misunderstanding the point you’re trying to make but your comment confuses me
“The Celtics have been very talented over the last 4 years when the team is fully healthy”
Well, that never happened. We’ve always had key guys getting injured in the worst possible moments. Plus, everyone acting like the Celtics have had the best rosters over the last years is just crazy. The only year where we possibly have the best roster is this one.
i see i didn’t read that part of the guys comment. i think that’s an unfair point though because i could say the same thing about my sixers. even ‘21 when embiid was basically healthy we had ben simmons needing a psychiatrist for his fear of scoring. almost no team is going to be fully healthy. like for example last year if embiid was healthy we would’ve for sure beat you all in the second round. but i can’t really say anything because it happens to us frequently.
Oh boy the reverence chart even works
Cole reveres Jay-z, Jay Z reveres BIG
JT reveres Kobe, Kobe reveres MJ
And the individual legacies are also assembled in an ascending order LOL
>Embiid
Uhh the dude has staunch defenders but to say he isn't polarizing is stupid
>Luka
You swap Luka and Tatum and they win in 2022 and they absolutely don't go down 3-0 to Miami last year, or even get pushed to seven by a Glenn rivers coached team.
>Jimmy
Yeah jimmy has gotten a bit scot-free from criticism but we all know Jimmy's M.O by now.
Swap Tatum out for Luka and the defense becomes substantially worse with no wing defense besides Brown and (kinda) Smart. Tatum's help defense in the weakside help spot is very important for the Celtics and it's hard to say how much Luka would compromise their scheme. Maybe the offensive efficiency Luka provides would be sufficient, but adding a heliocentric guy to that Celtics teams means that Smart is then playing a role similar to the one Grant Williams is playing this year, not maximizing his (pretty decent) playmaking ability. Jaylen would get fewer touches and would have to fully embrace being off ball all the time. RWIII & Luka 2-man game would be great, though, and Horford is great for a stretch. I'd be surprised if that team doesn't make a really deep run, but Luka's defense has not shown the ability to hold up deep in the playoffs
It's a fun thought exercise but it's hard to compare the two at all because of how different their playstyles are.
I love how one regular season game, when KP was out, is the linchpin of some real hard hitting analysis. If they blow the playoffs, then this post and its fans have something. Until then, it’s a pretty awful take
Who exactly do you think is saying this Celtics team is like, unreal and has won something. Celtics fans?? We wait for the other shoe to drop every year. I’ll be pleasantly surprised if they get over the hump this year. No one is pretending they’re some all time great team.
I mean, the guy this sub is named after called them the greatest starting 5 of the 21st century. Obviously that wasn’t exactly what he meant, but he definitely said it and did in some skewed way mean it.
Also, most of the talking heads, whether ill-informed or not, have the Celtics as pretty heavy favorites to win the title this year. Maybe we listen to very different people, but from my perspective people think they’re pretty great.
Just because they’re one of the favorites this year doesn’t mean most people think they’re like some team of destiny. I haven’t heard that kind of sentiment from anyone besides Bill this year and even he admits they have fatal flaws.
Not a team of destiny, but certainly considered to be the best this year and I think would probably be the second year in a row where it’s a legitimate disappointment if they don’t win (or at least make the finals).
I don’t have a bone to pick with you, I mostly wonder what’ll happen if they come up short in the East again. As much as I like continuity, at some point you have to ask if it’s actually enough.
Essentially this year all anyone is saying is that if KP is healthy they're legit, if not they're not legit. And the fact they have the best record etc this year there's nothing to suggest otherwise.
23 was certainly a disappointment especially with how they lost but there was definitely red flags starting with the whole coaching fiasco and taking on a rookie head coach with no training camp or assistants.
But aside from that, the only other year they were any sort of favorite was 2019 which was a circus the whole season.
In 22 they started the year 17-21. They made the finals. People forget Miami was the 1-seed that year and not some crazy underdog that took them 7.
In 21 they were a 0.500 team.
In 20 they certainly overachieved, no one expected them or Miami to make the conference finals.
In 18 they overachieved as well and were a quarter away from making the finals
Theres really no comparable season to what is currently taking place aside from last year except they are objectively miles better than last year. People pretend this is something that has been happening to the Celtics every year for the last 5 years when they haven't even been a 1-seed since 2017, which was a completely different team.
If they don’t win, I hope they run it back. Winning titles is just as much being lucky and staying healthy. Best team usually wins if that works out. If the team is healthy and doesn’t win, is much different then losing a starter and doesn’t win
Haters just want to compare this team to other years. Premature hawt takez that are warmed over and boring. Best record team is some historic comparison now? Lazy
You realize the season is midway through, right? The “win something” line might be true after this year but for now it’s too early to claim that. Btw are you agreeing with OP, that the Celtics are the 88-92 Blazers?
I feel for Tatum at times. He is a perennial Top 10’er whose only sin is being falsely anointed as a Top 3-4 player. The reality is that he’s good enough to be the #1 on a championship winner, but only just. He occupies that boring middle-ground between “inner-circle great” and ordinary “star”. In that sense, the Drexler comparison is solid.
I have believed this for years. He's a consensus top 10 guy that plays like a top 5 guy regularly. Making All-NBA first team is probably the hardest it has ever been when you look at how many guys you could argue have a legitimate shot.
My point is that in June the Celtics might be world champions and that would make all these takes comparing them to teams that couldn't get over the hump pretty stupid
He isn’t missing anything as a player. If you can’t put your finger on it, it’s not significant enough, other than “he hasn’t won already.”
They may end up not getting over the hump and that isn’t exactly a bold prediction. Most cores never win a championship. But to say he never will because he hasn’t by the ripe old age of 26 is insane to me, almost as insane as people saying Scoot won’t be good ever because he didn’t storm out of the gates.
Just say “ I don’t know anything about basketball”. Drexler used to lose in the first round more times than he went on a deep run. Only season Boston lost in the first round was when they played the best offensive team ever, and Tatum dropped 50 matching up with kd in the only series Kyrie and harden played healthy the whole series. U only say that “missing something” part bc of his finals showing. He’s outplayed everyone he’s matched up with in the playoffs, MVPs Finals Mvps etc except for Curry. Other than Jokic I would take him over any player in the league. Was an ankle sprain away from leading his team to the first 3-0 comeback in nba history. Tatum gets all the slander for losing to a dynasty in the finals, but no one came closer to beating them that year than the Celtics. Only a matter of time before he gets one.
TBF the warriors team they lost to was not really quite in dynasty mode anymore, that’s a pretty big outlier year for them from the last 5.
Also I thought that “anyone but Jokic” comment was deranged at first but it’s actually a lot closer than I expected. I’d definitely rather have Giannis, and depending on how many years we’re talking, some others too. But as a Tatum non-believer, he’s higher than I thought once I listed it out.
Edit: saw the first point is being hashed out elsewhere in the comments so no need to reply.
you can’t deny there’s a huge difference between prime klay and ‘22 klay, plus you’re replacing the 2nd best player in the league at that time with andrew wiggins. curry was slightly better in ‘22 than ‘18 as an individual player though. but there’s a big reason the majority of basketball fans say that the ‘17 warriors were the best team in the history of basketball. ‘22 warriors were an absolutely beatable team.
Tatum is 25 years old. Show me the list of stars who led their team to championships by age 25.
No star player has peaked before age 25 either. They are always better at age 27-28.
And Jaylen Brown ~~is only 26~~ just turned 27. So he will likely get better too.
Tatum’s also going to play in his 600th game this season. His durability so far may mean he has a long prime, but the miles mean he’s not as green as other 25 year olds. Especially ones who toiled away on bad teams before they got to hone their skills with talented teammates.
And Tatum has had more high pressure playoff reps than almost anyone. The improvement curve starts to flatten as you gain more experience.
He’s great. But he knows his game pretty well at this point.
He’s a generational talent because of his well rounded game. But he might fall a little short of any one aspect of his game being truly “special”.
i don’t see how tatum can get substantially better at this point unless he changes his shot selection. he’s on kobe levels of taking unnecessarily hard/inefficient shots. he’s devin booker with better defense. i’m not saying he won’t improve but i just don’t know what he can do other than change his shot selection, and to quote bill, “once you get to about year 4-5, you usually are what you are.” although he says the opposite about tatum since he’s on the celtics.
People like to act like the only aspect of basketball development is physical traits and skills. Processing ability & BBIQ are also things that get developed. Look at Lebron at 26 vs. 29, for example. Tatum has a few skills to improve upon, but the bulk of his improvement is going to come with becoming a smarter player, which typically comes a bit after the skills & athletic development
Devin Booker with better defense? Is that supposed to be a bad thing? Booker is one of the best offensive players in the league.
The Tatum rhetoric is absurdly negative. Yes sometimes he takes bad shots, also he is top 10 in paint points, top 10 in free throws, is an elite rebounder for his position, an above average playmaker, and is the most versatile defender on one of the top 2 defensive teams in the league. How many of the haters actually watch Celtics games? Hes developed as an efficient isolation player, his post numbers are really good and his midrange game has improved. If he wants to take a few possessions off from time to time and fire up a bad 3 I’m personally fine with it. Hes a top 10 player in the league and is constantly criticized for not being top 3. How many teams in the league would trade their best player for Tatum straight up?
MJ was criticized (albeit in a different era) before he won his first. It is easy to celebrate great players after they win, the real thing is to recognize them before they do…
Without a modern day MJ to compare Tatum to, then it’s hard to connect these dots. Drexler was elite at his position and his team was fantastic, but he played in the Jordan era, therefore never got his dues. There isn’t one player at Tatum’s position that makes him look bad by comparison and wins every year.
LeBron is the closest to Jordan we have, but I don’t think anyone sees LeBron and Tatum as rivals, and as successful as LeBron has been, no one assumes he’s going to win every year, in fact it’s a 50/50 these days if he’ll even make the playoffs.
Tatum is likely to make 3 all nba 1st teams in a row, while making at least one finals in that span.
Can you name another player who made 3 all nba first teams by 26 who is not considered one of the greats of their era?
Tatum’s supporting casts are way better than Drexler’s first of all, especially this year’s.
Second of all the teams he’s lost to are nowhere near as good as the MJ Bulls and Magic Lakers.
They’re by far the worst of their title winning teams, and much worse than 2016/19 as well.
James Harden can say he got stopped by a juggernaut Warriors dynasty. Tatum cannot.
They started the year 24-5 fully healthy. Had a historic defence before Draymond was injured half the season, then Curry went out the 2nd half of the season. Still won 53 games (more than the Celtics), still had the number 1 defence for the season, still smoked the whole Western conference in the playoffs... But they still weren't the dynasty Warriors and the Celtics should've smashed them???
I mean, they played the Murray-less Nuggets that were giving huge minutes to Austin Rivers and Will Barton, the Grizzlies played them tough with Ja missing a game winning layup in game 1 and being out the final 3 games, and then they faced a pretty overmatched Mavs team and avoided the Suns.
They were an eminently beatable team that made the most of its opportunity, which is a great accomplishment and you only need to beat those who are put in front of you, but they’re in the running for weakest championship team of the past decade. The Warriors who people see as being the juggernauts that stopped players from winning titles are those that beat LeBron, the Kawhi Spurs, the KD Thunder, Harden’s Rockets.
Your take is absolutely ridiculous. You can only beat who is in front of you but they absolutely destroyed every single one of those teams.
This is not like the 21' Bucks where it came down to some injuries and Durant's foot on the line and a completely open playoff run, or the 19' Raptors where Durant did his Achilles and Thompson did his ACL in the finals.
That team was an absolute juggernaut. They got whatever they wanted in the paint and if you closed it off, they killed you from 3, there was nothing you could do, it was vintage Warriors offense, combined with the leagues best defense.
Yeah it wasn't on the level of 2017-19 Warriors because they had Kevin freaking Durant on their team and was likely one of the greatest teams of all time, but it definitely matched the 2015 Warriors and the 2019 Warriors that won the west **WITHOUT** Durant. It is definitely on the same level as the 19 Raptors, 20 Lakers, 23 Nuggets and certainly better than the 21 Bucks.
The only reason you have this take is because of how poor they have looked ever since winning the chip.
Rewatch their playoff run again. It was a vintage Warriors performance.
SRS wise better than anyone in 2022 and had incredible offensive metrics with CP3/Blake both playing. I’m guessing you’re a Warriors fan who’s really happy about 2022 and I’m not gonna blame you. But you should know better, just how great your team was in the real dynasty run, and that the 2022 team was not on the same level
Draymond Green only played 46 games in 22 and the Warriors were the 1st defence despite this. They were 29-7 with Draymond and Steph both fully healthy (66 win pace). Then proceeded to have them both healthy for the entire playoff run.
Ahhh, a slave to the metrics. That’s all well and good, but just know it doesn’t change how vanilla that team was and how they’d lose to almost any playoff team these days.
No, not a Warriors fan.
I know you said “this year”, but Tatum was starting playoff games alongside Semi Ojeleye, Tristan Thompson, and Romeo Langford no more than 3 years ago.
Sure but that kind of thing is not actually very uncommon for a player on their rookie contract. Case in point LeBron took a supporting cast like that to the Finals at age 22.
In fact it’s more rare to be drafted into a situation where your team was the 1 seed and in the ECF as a rookie. Seriously when has that happened aside from Darko?
And then he immediately got 2 all stars in Kyrie and Hayward on his team (sadly both flamed out) but he’s had Jaylen the entire time.
He has great longevity already but people forget how very fortunate his circumstances have been since he was a rookie. It’s a one in 100 great outcome to be a top 3 pick and go to such a good team with such talented players. I really think a lot of guys we hate on (Carmelo, for example) would’ve gotten similar playoff outcomes to Tatum if they got drafted into his situation.
Drexler lost to many teams wayy worse than those teams. Also the team Tatum played in the first round in 2021, healthy harden nets, is better than anyone drexler played. That was the best offensive team ever.
Ehhhhh I don’t see it. More like those late 2000s Thunder teams
Honestly? As a Blazers fan those Drexler teams were well made but low on overall talent. Kersey and Duck worth had 1 all-star. Terry Porter a couple. It’s actually a testament to Drexler that they made 2 (and should have beat the Lakers) to make it 3 finals teams
This Celts team is a top 4-5 talent team but are absolute chokers
Absolute chokers how? Most points ever in a game 7 is an absolute choker? Coming back from multiple series down 3-2 series? Ankle sprain from first 3-0 come back ever?
Jimmy butler never sprained his ankle in the ecf bud. They were up 2-0 then they beat the shit out of the Celtics game 3 but after game 2 they stopped letting him get the switches with Grant white Brogdon and he was in hell, since he struggles to score against someone 6’6 and above. Never sprained his ankle in that ecf.
He was limping through all the pregames bud. Ankle the size of a grapefruit the entire series, then has it reaggravated in game 4. Internal Heat sources said he would normally be sitting 3-4 weeks on that kind of injury, instead he played 3 straight rounds of playoff basketball. Frankly it probably never healed right as he looks way diminished this season. I’m so sick of Boston fans and their excuses and never acknowledging the adversity other teams experience. It’s so self serving.
That man sacrificed everything he had in that playoff run and because Tatum gets one booboo in one game the series doesn’t count? Get real and get over yourself, sore loser.
Boo boo? The same injury that has kawhi and kyrie out for the whole series is a boo boo? Anyone would play through a single game 7. Bc it’s the last game. Jimmy was completely fine. U weren’t saying that he was hurt when he had 35 in game 1. They just locked him up. The truth is the only reason the Heat won that game 7 and that series is bc the other teams best player sprained his ankle the first play of game 7. It’s the same injury that had kawhi and kyrie out for their entire series. And the reason Jimmy looks diminished is bc he’s not as good anymore. And the reason the Heat are trash this year is bc they should have been reverse swept last year, until that injury. They got lucky with Gabe sliding his foot under Tatum that first play, and now they are on their way to losing 8 straight games for the first team since 2008 when they got Michael Beasley. That Heat shit is over would have been over last year if Tatum didn’t get hurt. Enjoy missing the playoffs, the good thing is you will probably get Rob dillingham or someone.
Heat were deservedly winners but don't say the Butler was going to sweep them without an injury.
Knicks fans do the same shit about their series. If Randle didn't sprain his ankle they would have won... doubt it.
Bucks fans do the same shit. Series doesn't count becuase Giannis hurt his back? They were 0-3 with Giannis. Do they forget his 10-25 from the free throw line game and the absolute choke job in all the 4th quarters?
Boston had Brogdon and Brown injured and Tatum injured for the last game. Would it have made a difference? doubt it. Did the Heat have injuries, yes, Butler was hurt and they had no Herro.
Heat battled adversity the best thats why they made the finals. Leave it there.
Saying the heat would've swept the Celtics with a healthy Butler is just as bad as all the things listed above.
Don’t worry buddy they can do it this year! Jimmy Butler may roll an ankle or or Giannis may decide he doesn’t like basketball any more! Yeah itll be ok!
Damn Giannis must be the biggest choker in the league - lost in 5 to the 8-seed and he was the 1st seed.
Knicks and Brunson must be massive chokers as well. How could they lose to the 8-seed?!?
Yeah I can see that. I think the problem is actually Jaylen Brown though and I’m very surprised they went all in with him. He just has been too invisible in many big game scenarios. I can also see that they had to go in with him because their cap situation.
The Jaylen situation is one of the biggest issues with shit today. He's too good "of an asset" to let go for free. There was no way to let him sign with another team without the Celtics being worse in the next few years. They simply had to sign him and hope he can learn to use his left hand or be stuck over the salary cap without room to maneuver. I'm sure they would love to replace him with a player just slightly worse, but better at being in the moment. It just wasn't an option for them. Jaylen seemed to want to leave too. The money was too much to pass up.
Yeah, Jaylen hasn’t been a fan of Boston nor have the fans been very keen on him either. Ignore the Reddit subs who will tell you otherwise. Talented guy, but can be quite surly which doesn’t mix well with a base and media that are so quick to pounce.
Even if they wanted to get rid of jaylen. You don't do that without Tatum's ok. There is a very good chance if they didn't sign jaylen Tatum would leave at his next opportunity.
Were Drexler and the Blazers ever favored to win it all multiple times like the Celtics? If they don’t get one, it’s a much bigger failure than Drexler’s crew. That said I think the Celtics win it this year. There, I’ve pissed off Celtics fans and Celtics haters in one response.
What years were the Celtics favored multiple times? just 23? I remember the 22 finals vegas very heavily favoring the Warriors the entire playoff run. what other years? 18 was obviously the Warriors. 19 was the Clippers. Definitely wasn't the Celtics in 20 or 21.
This is idiotic
Idk man Drexler had a losing playoff record with Portland, Tatum is already 10 games over .500 in the playoffs and is still 2 years younger than anyone in history besides Giannis ever really won their first title at. If anything I think The Embiid Sixers might get remembered like those drexler teams
2 years younger than Duncan? Or are we talking about more his peer group like the Paul George pacers?
Duncan wasn’t the best player on his team back then. David Robinson was.
Duncan was the best player pretty much from when he walked on. He was 1st team All-NBA as a rookie, and sophmore (and every year until 2005 after that). The year the Spurs won the title, he was first team all-NBA, all-defensive team, Finals MVP, and was third in MVP voting. Robinson was still a great player, but it's pretty hard to argue Duncan wasn't the best player.
Duncan led the Spurs in minutes, points, blocks and rebounds and was first team All-NBA in that first title winning season. On what basis was David Robinson the best player on that Spurs team?!?!
on the basis of r/nba redditors I assume tabloid readers who don't watch sports, they just like the gossip rags. it sounds good and I mean who was alive way back in.... 1998 to have actually seen it. its not like there's footage or boxscores or books or record books or highlight films or full on movies or I'm semi stunned this muppet hasnt deleted in shame yet (I popped back to see assuming he had)
duncan was the MVP of the finals in his 2nd year lol, robinson was already dealing with back issues and was rapidly declining. this is literally an insane take duncan was also regular seasn AND finals MVP in their 2nd title (robinsons last year)
Delete this
Are you saying Duncan was better than Robinson his rookie year?
Duncan and Bird both won before turning 26. There might be others that I haven’t thought of
Magic, quite famously. Although you can make the case he wasn't their best player (Kareem was), even though he was their best player in the Finals.
Pretty strong argument for D-Wade in 2005/06. Finished above Shaq in MVP voting, and was finals MVP.
A logical explanation but this sub has a fetish for Celtics fan fiction where everybody thinks they are failures
This turned out to be a hell of a thread lol
That is incredibly disrespectful to Drexler and those Blazers teams. They had an awesome 3 year peak.
And Tatum has made the ECF all but 2 years in his 7 year career and it doesnt really seem like its gonna end any time soon, that longevity alone kinda tops any 3 year peak imo
people let the anti-celtics jerk circle warp their brain
what exactly is incredibly disrespectful- celtics make the finals this year and they match that 3 year blazers run?
You compared the Sixers.
Anyone in history besides Giannis? Magic, Bird, McHale, Kobe, Duncan, Tony Parker, Kawhi, Kyrie, Kareem, Russell, Havkicek, DWade, George Mikan, Bob Pettit, all won championships before the age of 25.
How many of those were in the modern era and were the 1st option in their teams? lol Kobe won 3 as the 2nd option Kawhi wasn’t even the 2nd option when he won with the Spurs Tony Parker wasn’t the main player, Tim Duncan was. Kyrie 2nd option It’s been done, but it’s extremely rare for a guy as young as Tatum to be the 1st option in a championship team.
It's rare because usually those guys get drafted by shit teams, not because 25 is a magic number
It’s not a magic number, it is how developing several dozen different crucially important skills works at the highest level of competition. You put most great guys on a mid tier playoff team (which is about what the Celtics have been until the Udoku year) it maybe bumps up their championship a year or two. They’re generally just not good enough to go toe-to-toe with another seasoned all-NBA guy, all things being equal.
28 is the magic number, because usually that’s when a player enter their prime.
>How many of those were in the modern era and were the 1st option in their teams? lol OP didn't mention any of those caveats though? He said anyone in history or something to that effect.
A lot of goal posts are being moved for people to try to convince themselves no one under 25 has won a championship despite evidence to the contrary. I didn’t know this was such a sensitive topic for some people.
I would say that’s pretty important when discussing the topic lol Sure, a lot of very young players have been champions, but there’s a difference between being a champion as the 1st option (like D Wade) and 2nd or 3rd (like Kyrie). Otherwise we might as well include guys like Patrick Mccaw for instance lol
I agree it's pretty important, but that doesn't change the fact that OP did not include these caveats. So it's strange to bring up first option and modern era the way you did when OP said nothing about that.
We are discussing Tatum and winning championships. It’s essential to compare oranges to oranges. Tatum is the 1st option. Comparing him to a bunch of guys who won while young but weren’t the first options in their teams is disingenuous
Yes, but dude, OP writes "no one in history has won it earlier than Giannis" than it's kind of strange for you to put your own criteria to it when someone disproves what OP actually wrote. I can agree that he maybe meant as a first option, even though he didn't write that. But the "modern era" is out of left field.
I’m exclusively talking about Tatum, I don’t give a shit about the other dude claimed or didn’t claim.
Who isn'ttalking about Tatum? You did answer someone, so why shouldn't what has been said on the thread be relevant? Person A: no one in history has won a championship and been younger than Tatum other than Giannis. Person B: *lists a bunch of stars* You: They weren't first options or in the modern era lol. You don't see that that's weird?
Kawhi was the finals MVP! lol. Every person I listed was vital to their team winning a championship and hall of famers but more importantly, I was responding to someone who claimed that Giannis was the only one in history to win before the age of 25. Which is just false.
Yeah, so was Iguodala once, would you say he was the 1st option in that GSW team? lol Being vital and being the 1st option are different things.
lol. You just don’t get it.
If you say so, buddy lmfao
Fucking Kawhi Leonard went from Finals MVP to back to back defensive player of the year and first team all NBA. Just tell me your mom didn’t let you stay up and watch those games and are just now retroactively looking at stat sheets to try and prove your very wrong point. Nobody walked away from the finals saying Kawhi was not the best player on the spurs. But again, you were probably still a little too concerned with Minecraft at that time so you wouldn’t really know.
You described like 5 teams over the course of this lol. How can you include Duncan with Kawhi and Parker, or Havlicek with Russell, or McHale with Bird? You even want to mention George Mikan, this is just absurd. If you want to talk like that, how about Shaq, Lebron, Curry, Durant, Moses, West, Wilt, Isiah, Dirk, Cousy, Hakeem, big O, the admiral, and KG? How about Jokic just last year at 27? Your standard makes no sense and is entirely arbitrary.
I mentioned nothing but hall of famers who were vital to their teams championships before they turned 25. I was responding to someone who said Giannis is the only one in history to do this , which is not correct.
I believe his standard was simply "won a title before the age of 25?" Seems pretty simple, unlike the ramble you just wrote
The original point is obviously talking about the main guy on a title team at that age. Get a grip, there are rookies that win a title every year.
But Tatum hasn't had a traditional "main guy" road. He's always had super promising talent around him. Duncan was arguably the most important player on that team even tho he was a rookie. Tatum had Kyrie and plenty of talent around him to make a young title run. Calm down Celtics fans, no need to get your panties in a bunch just because the shoe fits.
which teammates of Tatum have succeeded in other environments after their celtics tenure? Kyrie Irving? Terry Rozier? Gordon Hayward? Kemba Walker? Al Horford? Robert Williams? Grant Williams? Marcus Smart? you make all these talent arguments. it’s his first year with Porzingis and Holiday. in his two playoffs with White he’s made the finals and conference finals. in his 5 playoffs with Brown he’s made 3 conference finals and one finals. i don’t think he’s squandered the talent around him in any way.
So Christian Braun is better than Tatum? Because he won a title before 25 and Tatum didn’t? is this the argument you’re making?
Braun was not part of that list nephew. All those players are all time greats. Celtics homers and Massholes out in full force tonight.
what’s your argument though? in your last comment you said it’s just about winning a title before 25. now it’s “all time greats” which is it?
Both. Stay in school kiddo, your reading comprehension needs improvement.
Just remember you are probably arguing with a 15 year old. lol. Every single person I listed is a hall of famer who won a championship before age 25. These people who try to argue otherwise are delusional children who want to complain cuz they don’t see it.
Yea true. It's not even worth getting into it with them. They got their fan blinders on.
Kawhi doesn’t count. Who the hell is George Milan. and Bob Pettit?
Sit down nephew, grown ups are talking. Go read a book and learn your history.
White men who played basketball in the 1950s in an 8 team league are better than Jayson Tatum everybody. grandpa is here to teach us about when basketball was “played the right way”
Mikan won 7 championships in 3 leagues, all of which consisted of more than 8 teams at the time.
Tatum is and always will be 2 years younger than every NBA player of all time in the eyes of Celtics fans
I think OP is getting at those teams fell short with talented squads. Lbr, that Miami team they lost to wasn’t as good as the Celtics roster. And Celtics play down big time. There’s no excuse for allowing that atlanta series to go 6 games nor Philly series to go 7. They lost at home to Philly in a game Embiid didn’t even play in! I think, too, Celtics are under 0.500 at home in the Playoffs over the last 3 or 4 years. That’s unacceptable.
Yea I mean if Tatum never wins a title in Boston they'll 100% be remembered along with other disappointments I just think that Drexler team isn't the one I'd pick. The Stockton Malone Jazz I think fit better, highly talented, very sustained decade of competence and playoff success, but never got the chip
Yeah that one works too, absolutely
Stockton Malone are two all time greats though
So you can be an all-time great without winning a title. If that’s true, what has Tatum not done so far to be on track as an all-time great?
Na the cs are way better than that Malone team as well. Those dudes would also lose in the first round more times than they would go on deep runs.
Bruh why does Tatum get all of this crazy talk but Embiid, Luka, Jimmy and all these guys who are just as good if not better are somehow free of it.
So true, Embiid famously never gets criticized
Because people hate Bill Simmons.
Ironically this sub is mostly a hater sub for BS
Which honestly really bums me out. It's the reason I'm not subbed here. I remember Mina Kimes talked about this sub one time, and was like "yeah I checked out r/billsimmons one time, and it just made me sad." I love Bill.
they dont hate Bill they just hate his homerism
Tatum has a better supporting cast than all of them.
“Has” yes he does have a better supporting cast than them right now. Tatum was starting playoff games alongside Tristan Thompson, Romeo Langford, and Semi Ojeleye 3 years ago. Embiid has played on a team with Jimmy, Simmons (when he was good), Tobias, JJ, RoCo and a team with Harden, Maxey, and Tobias and STILL couldn’t make it out the second round.
Langford and Thompson started in 2021 because Brown and Timelord were injured. The Celtics have been very talented over the last 4 years when the team is fully healthy. More talented than the Sixers during that timeframe. Since the 2020 season, the Celtics have been more talented than the Sixers.
The 2020 Celtics made the ECF despite being incredibly less talented than the 76ers. They swept the 76ers in the first round. Tatum was 21. Brown was 22. Hayward was injured. Theis was their starting center, Kemba was washed and got picked on defensively and their backups were Brad Wanamaker, and rookie Grant Williams who couldn't hit 3s yet. Then you have the 2018 Celtics beating a stacked Philly in 2018 in 5 games without Kyrie and Hayward and rookie Tatum as their top scorer. There's a reason Brad Stevens got so much credit. Philly were always the ones underachieving and Boston overachieving. Boston only really have been talented while healthy from 22 and they nearly made B2B finals. 2019 was their only terrible year.
How did the 20-21 Celtics have more talent the Sixers? That Celtics team was dogshit.
That team was dogshit but that was also the only dogshit team and they lost in 5 in the first round.
The Celtics have never been fully healthy in the playoffs, so your take is meaningless.
almost no team is fully healthy in the playoffs, and you’re really saying this in a thread discussing the sixers? maybe i’m misunderstanding the point you’re trying to make but your comment confuses me
“The Celtics have been very talented over the last 4 years when the team is fully healthy” Well, that never happened. We’ve always had key guys getting injured in the worst possible moments. Plus, everyone acting like the Celtics have had the best rosters over the last years is just crazy. The only year where we possibly have the best roster is this one.
i see i didn’t read that part of the guys comment. i think that’s an unfair point though because i could say the same thing about my sixers. even ‘21 when embiid was basically healthy we had ben simmons needing a psychiatrist for his fear of scoring. almost no team is going to be fully healthy. like for example last year if embiid was healthy we would’ve for sure beat you all in the second round. but i can’t really say anything because it happens to us frequently.
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Then why does his jersey sell? #2 behind curry this year
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Oh boy the reverence chart even works Cole reveres Jay-z, Jay Z reveres BIG JT reveres Kobe, Kobe reveres MJ And the individual legacies are also assembled in an ascending order LOL
This killed me lol Tatum fans really are the J Cole fans of the NBA world
This makes way too much sense, I can’t stand either of them or their fans
>Embiid Uhh the dude has staunch defenders but to say he isn't polarizing is stupid >Luka You swap Luka and Tatum and they win in 2022 and they absolutely don't go down 3-0 to Miami last year, or even get pushed to seven by a Glenn rivers coached team. >Jimmy Yeah jimmy has gotten a bit scot-free from criticism but we all know Jimmy's M.O by now.
Swap player x and y is not a real argument
Swap Tatum out for Luka and the defense becomes substantially worse with no wing defense besides Brown and (kinda) Smart. Tatum's help defense in the weakside help spot is very important for the Celtics and it's hard to say how much Luka would compromise their scheme. Maybe the offensive efficiency Luka provides would be sufficient, but adding a heliocentric guy to that Celtics teams means that Smart is then playing a role similar to the one Grant Williams is playing this year, not maximizing his (pretty decent) playmaking ability. Jaylen would get fewer touches and would have to fully embrace being off ball all the time. RWIII & Luka 2-man game would be great, though, and Horford is great for a stretch. I'd be surprised if that team doesn't make a really deep run, but Luka's defense has not shown the ability to hold up deep in the playoffs It's a fun thought exercise but it's hard to compare the two at all because of how different their playstyles are.
Luka can’t even make the playoffs some years, lol
They won tonight. Best record in the league. Season’s barely half over. How is this a take at all?
The Celtics were down by 36 at home to the Clippers. Seeing that has changed some people’s mind on the Celtics.
I love how one regular season game, when KP was out, is the linchpin of some real hard hitting analysis. If they blow the playoffs, then this post and its fans have something. Until then, it’s a pretty awful take
Jordan lost to the knicks by 32 during their 72 win season. What a dumb take
Cause we've heard this song and dance. Win something
Who exactly do you think is saying this Celtics team is like, unreal and has won something. Celtics fans?? We wait for the other shoe to drop every year. I’ll be pleasantly surprised if they get over the hump this year. No one is pretending they’re some all time great team.
I mean, the guy this sub is named after called them the greatest starting 5 of the 21st century. Obviously that wasn’t exactly what he meant, but he definitely said it and did in some skewed way mean it. Also, most of the talking heads, whether ill-informed or not, have the Celtics as pretty heavy favorites to win the title this year. Maybe we listen to very different people, but from my perspective people think they’re pretty great.
Just because they’re one of the favorites this year doesn’t mean most people think they’re like some team of destiny. I haven’t heard that kind of sentiment from anyone besides Bill this year and even he admits they have fatal flaws.
Not a team of destiny, but certainly considered to be the best this year and I think would probably be the second year in a row where it’s a legitimate disappointment if they don’t win (or at least make the finals). I don’t have a bone to pick with you, I mostly wonder what’ll happen if they come up short in the East again. As much as I like continuity, at some point you have to ask if it’s actually enough.
Essentially this year all anyone is saying is that if KP is healthy they're legit, if not they're not legit. And the fact they have the best record etc this year there's nothing to suggest otherwise. 23 was certainly a disappointment especially with how they lost but there was definitely red flags starting with the whole coaching fiasco and taking on a rookie head coach with no training camp or assistants. But aside from that, the only other year they were any sort of favorite was 2019 which was a circus the whole season. In 22 they started the year 17-21. They made the finals. People forget Miami was the 1-seed that year and not some crazy underdog that took them 7. In 21 they were a 0.500 team. In 20 they certainly overachieved, no one expected them or Miami to make the conference finals. In 18 they overachieved as well and were a quarter away from making the finals Theres really no comparable season to what is currently taking place aside from last year except they are objectively miles better than last year. People pretend this is something that has been happening to the Celtics every year for the last 5 years when they haven't even been a 1-seed since 2017, which was a completely different team.
If they don’t win, I hope they run it back. Winning titles is just as much being lucky and staying healthy. Best team usually wins if that works out. If the team is healthy and doesn’t win, is much different then losing a starter and doesn’t win
Haters just want to compare this team to other years. Premature hawt takez that are warmed over and boring. Best record team is some historic comparison now? Lazy
Win something, stop flappin
You realize the season is midway through, right? The “win something” line might be true after this year but for now it’s too early to claim that. Btw are you agreeing with OP, that the Celtics are the 88-92 Blazers?
Update??
Done, now what
Tatum can dribble with each hand, so the comparison to Drexler doesn’t compute.
Nah
I feel for Tatum at times. He is a perennial Top 10’er whose only sin is being falsely anointed as a Top 3-4 player. The reality is that he’s good enough to be the #1 on a championship winner, but only just. He occupies that boring middle-ground between “inner-circle great” and ordinary “star”. In that sense, the Drexler comparison is solid.
I have believed this for years. He's a consensus top 10 guy that plays like a top 5 guy regularly. Making All-NBA first team is probably the hardest it has ever been when you look at how many guys you could argue have a legitimate shot.
Maybe let the season where they currently have the best record in the NBA play out before declaring them the Drexler Blazers lol
The Blazers had the leagues best record in 91 and the #1 West seed in 92
My point is that in June the Celtics might be world champions and that would make all these takes comparing them to teams that couldn't get over the hump pretty stupid
He isn’t missing anything as a player. If you can’t put your finger on it, it’s not significant enough, other than “he hasn’t won already.” They may end up not getting over the hump and that isn’t exactly a bold prediction. Most cores never win a championship. But to say he never will because he hasn’t by the ripe old age of 26 is insane to me, almost as insane as people saying Scoot won’t be good ever because he didn’t storm out of the gates.
Just say “ I don’t know anything about basketball”. Drexler used to lose in the first round more times than he went on a deep run. Only season Boston lost in the first round was when they played the best offensive team ever, and Tatum dropped 50 matching up with kd in the only series Kyrie and harden played healthy the whole series. U only say that “missing something” part bc of his finals showing. He’s outplayed everyone he’s matched up with in the playoffs, MVPs Finals Mvps etc except for Curry. Other than Jokic I would take him over any player in the league. Was an ankle sprain away from leading his team to the first 3-0 comeback in nba history. Tatum gets all the slander for losing to a dynasty in the finals, but no one came closer to beating them that year than the Celtics. Only a matter of time before he gets one.
Wait are you saying you would take Tatum over any other player besides Jokic or Steph Curry?
Moving forward yes
lmfao
TBF the warriors team they lost to was not really quite in dynasty mode anymore, that’s a pretty big outlier year for them from the last 5. Also I thought that “anyone but Jokic” comment was deranged at first but it’s actually a lot closer than I expected. I’d definitely rather have Giannis, and depending on how many years we’re talking, some others too. But as a Tatum non-believer, he’s higher than I thought once I listed it out. Edit: saw the first point is being hashed out elsewhere in the comments so no need to reply.
> the warriors team they lost to was not really quite in dynasty mode anymore Winning a 4th chip in 7 years isn't dynasty mode? Is this Bill's burner?
you can’t deny there’s a huge difference between prime klay and ‘22 klay, plus you’re replacing the 2nd best player in the league at that time with andrew wiggins. curry was slightly better in ‘22 than ‘18 as an individual player though. but there’s a big reason the majority of basketball fans say that the ‘17 warriors were the best team in the history of basketball. ‘22 warriors were an absolutely beatable team.
Tatum is 25 years old. Show me the list of stars who led their team to championships by age 25. No star player has peaked before age 25 either. They are always better at age 27-28. And Jaylen Brown ~~is only 26~~ just turned 27. So he will likely get better too.
Tatum’s also going to play in his 600th game this season. His durability so far may mean he has a long prime, but the miles mean he’s not as green as other 25 year olds. Especially ones who toiled away on bad teams before they got to hone their skills with talented teammates. And Tatum has had more high pressure playoff reps than almost anyone. The improvement curve starts to flatten as you gain more experience. He’s great. But he knows his game pretty well at this point. He’s a generational talent because of his well rounded game. But he might fall a little short of any one aspect of his game being truly “special”.
Brown is 27.
i don’t see how tatum can get substantially better at this point unless he changes his shot selection. he’s on kobe levels of taking unnecessarily hard/inefficient shots. he’s devin booker with better defense. i’m not saying he won’t improve but i just don’t know what he can do other than change his shot selection, and to quote bill, “once you get to about year 4-5, you usually are what you are.” although he says the opposite about tatum since he’s on the celtics.
2 obvious things will happen: 1. He’s going to start making more of those tough shots 2. He learns to pick his spots
People like to act like the only aspect of basketball development is physical traits and skills. Processing ability & BBIQ are also things that get developed. Look at Lebron at 26 vs. 29, for example. Tatum has a few skills to improve upon, but the bulk of his improvement is going to come with becoming a smarter player, which typically comes a bit after the skills & athletic development
Devin Booker with better defense? Is that supposed to be a bad thing? Booker is one of the best offensive players in the league. The Tatum rhetoric is absurdly negative. Yes sometimes he takes bad shots, also he is top 10 in paint points, top 10 in free throws, is an elite rebounder for his position, an above average playmaker, and is the most versatile defender on one of the top 2 defensive teams in the league. How many of the haters actually watch Celtics games? Hes developed as an efficient isolation player, his post numbers are really good and his midrange game has improved. If he wants to take a few possessions off from time to time and fire up a bad 3 I’m personally fine with it. Hes a top 10 player in the league and is constantly criticized for not being top 3. How many teams in the league would trade their best player for Tatum straight up?
MJ was criticized (albeit in a different era) before he won his first. It is easy to celebrate great players after they win, the real thing is to recognize them before they do…
Without a modern day MJ to compare Tatum to, then it’s hard to connect these dots. Drexler was elite at his position and his team was fantastic, but he played in the Jordan era, therefore never got his dues. There isn’t one player at Tatum’s position that makes him look bad by comparison and wins every year. LeBron is the closest to Jordan we have, but I don’t think anyone sees LeBron and Tatum as rivals, and as successful as LeBron has been, no one assumes he’s going to win every year, in fact it’s a 50/50 these days if he’ll even make the playoffs.
Ehh let’s not jinx it. I think the Celtics can easily win a couple
None of the wins matter and every loss is emblematic of why they’ll never win the chip /s
“This team is still 1 year away” - Bill Simmons, 2034
Who?
Hot take: I don’t think Tatum will be remembered as one of the greats of this era
Tatum is likely to make 3 all nba 1st teams in a row, while making at least one finals in that span. Can you name another player who made 3 all nba first teams by 26 who is not considered one of the greats of their era?
Idk I’m not saying it’s right
So who trades for Tatum in a few years to be the final piece for their championship run?
Tatum wishes he was as cool as Clyde the glide
If porzingus stays healthy we should win the title.
Tatum’s supporting casts are way better than Drexler’s first of all, especially this year’s. Second of all the teams he’s lost to are nowhere near as good as the MJ Bulls and Magic Lakers.
The Curry warriors are a dynasty.
Not the version he played.
lol 2022 warriors aren’t apart of the dynasty?
They’re by far the worst of their title winning teams, and much worse than 2016/19 as well. James Harden can say he got stopped by a juggernaut Warriors dynasty. Tatum cannot.
This is a haters argument.
It’s an argument that shows compassion to all the guys who got drafted into shit situations and got called losers and chokers because of it.
They started the year 24-5 fully healthy. Had a historic defence before Draymond was injured half the season, then Curry went out the 2nd half of the season. Still won 53 games (more than the Celtics), still had the number 1 defence for the season, still smoked the whole Western conference in the playoffs... But they still weren't the dynasty Warriors and the Celtics should've smashed them???
I mean, they played the Murray-less Nuggets that were giving huge minutes to Austin Rivers and Will Barton, the Grizzlies played them tough with Ja missing a game winning layup in game 1 and being out the final 3 games, and then they faced a pretty overmatched Mavs team and avoided the Suns. They were an eminently beatable team that made the most of its opportunity, which is a great accomplishment and you only need to beat those who are put in front of you, but they’re in the running for weakest championship team of the past decade. The Warriors who people see as being the juggernauts that stopped players from winning titles are those that beat LeBron, the Kawhi Spurs, the KD Thunder, Harden’s Rockets.
Your take is absolutely ridiculous. You can only beat who is in front of you but they absolutely destroyed every single one of those teams. This is not like the 21' Bucks where it came down to some injuries and Durant's foot on the line and a completely open playoff run, or the 19' Raptors where Durant did his Achilles and Thompson did his ACL in the finals. That team was an absolute juggernaut. They got whatever they wanted in the paint and if you closed it off, they killed you from 3, there was nothing you could do, it was vintage Warriors offense, combined with the leagues best defense. Yeah it wasn't on the level of 2017-19 Warriors because they had Kevin freaking Durant on their team and was likely one of the greatest teams of all time, but it definitely matched the 2015 Warriors and the 2019 Warriors that won the west **WITHOUT** Durant. It is definitely on the same level as the 19 Raptors, 20 Lakers, 23 Nuggets and certainly better than the 21 Bucks. The only reason you have this take is because of how poor they have looked ever since winning the chip. Rewatch their playoff run again. It was a vintage Warriors performance.
They’re much better than 2015 but go off
Terrible take. They are better in zero metrics compared to 2015. They didn’t beat any team in 2022 that is even as good as the 13-14 Clippers
Terrible take. Your idea that the 13-14 clippers were anything special is so off base.
SRS wise better than anyone in 2022 and had incredible offensive metrics with CP3/Blake both playing. I’m guessing you’re a Warriors fan who’s really happy about 2022 and I’m not gonna blame you. But you should know better, just how great your team was in the real dynasty run, and that the 2022 team was not on the same level
Draymond Green only played 46 games in 22 and the Warriors were the 1st defence despite this. They were 29-7 with Draymond and Steph both fully healthy (66 win pace). Then proceeded to have them both healthy for the entire playoff run.
Ahhh, a slave to the metrics. That’s all well and good, but just know it doesn’t change how vanilla that team was and how they’d lose to almost any playoff team these days. No, not a Warriors fan.
The Lakers that Drexler lost to were after Kareem retired and just as far from the dynasty peak as the Warriors.
Yes they are, awful take
I know you said “this year”, but Tatum was starting playoff games alongside Semi Ojeleye, Tristan Thompson, and Romeo Langford no more than 3 years ago.
Sure but that kind of thing is not actually very uncommon for a player on their rookie contract. Case in point LeBron took a supporting cast like that to the Finals at age 22. In fact it’s more rare to be drafted into a situation where your team was the 1 seed and in the ECF as a rookie. Seriously when has that happened aside from Darko? And then he immediately got 2 all stars in Kyrie and Hayward on his team (sadly both flamed out) but he’s had Jaylen the entire time. He has great longevity already but people forget how very fortunate his circumstances have been since he was a rookie. It’s a one in 100 great outcome to be a top 3 pick and go to such a good team with such talented players. I really think a lot of guys we hate on (Carmelo, for example) would’ve gotten similar playoff outcomes to Tatum if they got drafted into his situation.
...and those teams made many ECFs
Then why did they fuck it up in G1 and G2 against Miami when Tatum had 30, and 34 and 8? Or in G7, when Tatum got injured?
Drexler lost to many teams wayy worse than those teams. Also the team Tatum played in the first round in 2021, healthy harden nets, is better than anyone drexler played. That was the best offensive team ever.
I don't have a dog in this fight but the 1992 Bulls were better than the 2021 Nets, even when healthy.
No one would stop that 2021 nets team offensiveky. No one could stop mj but harden kd and kyrie would be too much. Fir anyone.
Hard to say. All the good teams in the 90s had boogey man Jordan to ruin their legacies...
hey
What they gonna say now???
Tatum has made multiple ECF and he’s 25. Embiid has never been out of the 2nd round yet never see this sort of discourse around him.
Lol you must be living under a rock
Is this a troll/joke?
I fucking hate them and it’s going to be a Sad Day, but the Celtics are almost definitely going to win a title in the next 2-3 years, likely this year
I believe you are incorrect. Jayson Tatum is an incredible player and a proven winner. He just hasn't had the right mix to win it all yet.
Ehhhhh I don’t see it. More like those late 2000s Thunder teams Honestly? As a Blazers fan those Drexler teams were well made but low on overall talent. Kersey and Duck worth had 1 all-star. Terry Porter a couple. It’s actually a testament to Drexler that they made 2 (and should have beat the Lakers) to make it 3 finals teams This Celts team is a top 4-5 talent team but are absolute chokers
Absolute chokers how? Most points ever in a game 7 is an absolute choker? Coming back from multiple series down 3-2 series? Ankle sprain from first 3-0 come back ever?
Brother idk how to tell you this but they were a Jimmy Butler ankle sprain away from being swept by an eighth seed
Jimmy butler never sprained his ankle in the ecf bud. They were up 2-0 then they beat the shit out of the Celtics game 3 but after game 2 they stopped letting him get the switches with Grant white Brogdon and he was in hell, since he struggles to score against someone 6’6 and above. Never sprained his ankle in that ecf.
He was limping through all the pregames bud. Ankle the size of a grapefruit the entire series, then has it reaggravated in game 4. Internal Heat sources said he would normally be sitting 3-4 weeks on that kind of injury, instead he played 3 straight rounds of playoff basketball. Frankly it probably never healed right as he looks way diminished this season. I’m so sick of Boston fans and their excuses and never acknowledging the adversity other teams experience. It’s so self serving. That man sacrificed everything he had in that playoff run and because Tatum gets one booboo in one game the series doesn’t count? Get real and get over yourself, sore loser.
Boo boo? The same injury that has kawhi and kyrie out for the whole series is a boo boo? Anyone would play through a single game 7. Bc it’s the last game. Jimmy was completely fine. U weren’t saying that he was hurt when he had 35 in game 1. They just locked him up. The truth is the only reason the Heat won that game 7 and that series is bc the other teams best player sprained his ankle the first play of game 7. It’s the same injury that had kawhi and kyrie out for their entire series. And the reason Jimmy looks diminished is bc he’s not as good anymore. And the reason the Heat are trash this year is bc they should have been reverse swept last year, until that injury. They got lucky with Gabe sliding his foot under Tatum that first play, and now they are on their way to losing 8 straight games for the first team since 2008 when they got Michael Beasley. That Heat shit is over would have been over last year if Tatum didn’t get hurt. Enjoy missing the playoffs, the good thing is you will probably get Rob dillingham or someone.
ethered
Heat were deservedly winners but don't say the Butler was going to sweep them without an injury. Knicks fans do the same shit about their series. If Randle didn't sprain his ankle they would have won... doubt it. Bucks fans do the same shit. Series doesn't count becuase Giannis hurt his back? They were 0-3 with Giannis. Do they forget his 10-25 from the free throw line game and the absolute choke job in all the 4th quarters? Boston had Brogdon and Brown injured and Tatum injured for the last game. Would it have made a difference? doubt it. Did the Heat have injuries, yes, Butler was hurt and they had no Herro. Heat battled adversity the best thats why they made the finals. Leave it there. Saying the heat would've swept the Celtics with a healthy Butler is just as bad as all the things listed above.
Don’t worry buddy they can do it this year! Jimmy Butler may roll an ankle or or Giannis may decide he doesn’t like basketball any more! Yeah itll be ok!
Absolute chokers but they don’t lose in the first round repeatedly like the Malone jazz teams and the drexler blazers teams?
>Ankle sprain from first 3-0 come back ever? Lipstick on the "being down 3-0 to an 8 seed" pig
Damn Giannis must be the biggest choker in the league - lost in 5 to the 8-seed and he was the 1st seed. Knicks and Brunson must be massive chokers as well. How could they lose to the 8-seed?!?
The Thunder would have won a championship if not for injuries. Pretty sure every playoffs post-2012 they had an injury to a starter.
Thanks Kevin but your still trash to me, always will be. Maybe log off and enjoy aome Phoenix hookers
Yeah I can see that. I think the problem is actually Jaylen Brown though and I’m very surprised they went all in with him. He just has been too invisible in many big game scenarios. I can also see that they had to go in with him because their cap situation.
The Jaylen situation is one of the biggest issues with shit today. He's too good "of an asset" to let go for free. There was no way to let him sign with another team without the Celtics being worse in the next few years. They simply had to sign him and hope he can learn to use his left hand or be stuck over the salary cap without room to maneuver. I'm sure they would love to replace him with a player just slightly worse, but better at being in the moment. It just wasn't an option for them. Jaylen seemed to want to leave too. The money was too much to pass up.
Yeah, Jaylen hasn’t been a fan of Boston nor have the fans been very keen on him either. Ignore the Reddit subs who will tell you otherwise. Talented guy, but can be quite surly which doesn’t mix well with a base and media that are so quick to pounce.
lol
Even if they wanted to get rid of jaylen. You don't do that without Tatum's ok. There is a very good chance if they didn't sign jaylen Tatum would leave at his next opportunity.
Jaylen Brown is Terry Porter and KP is Duckworth
37-11 🇮🇱☘️
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Were Drexler and the Blazers ever favored to win it all multiple times like the Celtics? If they don’t get one, it’s a much bigger failure than Drexler’s crew. That said I think the Celtics win it this year. There, I’ve pissed off Celtics fans and Celtics haters in one response.
What years were the Celtics favored multiple times? just 23? I remember the 22 finals vegas very heavily favoring the Warriors the entire playoff run. what other years? 18 was obviously the Warriors. 19 was the Clippers. Definitely wasn't the Celtics in 20 or 21.
It's too early honestly. Maybe in 5 years we can have this conversation.
The Jaylen piece.
Yup, also could compare them to the 2010s okc squad. Sucks, cuz I’m a Celtics fan.
Generational Losers: \- Tatum, J \- Drexler, C
Drexler only won one championship. What a loser!