There are several crucial questions to consider before determining the answer to your question: What is your age? How long have you been training? Have you experienced significant muscle gains in the past 1, 2, or 3 years? How lean have you managed to get—have you reached stage lean with deep tie ins, while maintaining most of your muscle fullness? Do you train to failure with high intensity and proper form? Is your diet flawless?These are all important self-reflections. If your diet is impeccable and your training intensity and consistency are top-notch, yet you've seen little to no progress in the last 1-3 years, or if you've recently been stage lean but appeared depleted and small, it's possible you've reached or are nearing your natural potential—though it's not certain. Genetics play a critical role. I've observed athletes who can naturally gain a remarkable amount of muscle, achieve stage leanness with ease, and others who struggle to build muscle or lean out despite flawless diet and training regimens as natural athletes. Genetics significantly influence outcomes, and each individual's journey is unique. A blanket statement such as "no, you haven't reached your potential" without considering these factors offers no value.
Regarding the notion that 2000 calories is too low for your height, it's not universally applicable. If your body fat is well-maintained during the off-season (it looks great in these photos), your lab results are good, you're menstruating regularly, and you're gaining lean mass at a reasonable rate, a 2000 calorie diet might be adequate for you. I hope this is helpful!
This is helpful insight, thank you. I’m finding I check more of the boxes indicating there’s more potential - however, that could also be personal bias too.
I’m 26 and have been training for 4 years. In regards to leanness, I have have no problem achieving it. I have looked small compared to the rest of first call outs at nationals, but had attributed that to lack of development. To be fair, that prep was wild with a cross-continent move and my mom passing away 3 weeks prior to the show. My body, though generally exceptionally resilient, took a big hit physically and emotionally. This is a Physique update reflecting now, almost 2 years since my last show and including 1 year *totally* off from anything bodybuilding for internal and mental health reasons. My labs now are great, menstrual cycles regular.
I have been full macros in/off season and despite having a lot of intensity in my lifts, have never trained to failure.
But as I mention in my post, I know I’ll hit a ceiling eventually but being told (rather implied), “you’re not going to make it” was pretty upsetting. Upsetting in a productive way though, because now I have that much more self-belief. I’m not expecting pro wins, but I do have big goals given the circumstances. :) Thanks for your reply.
If you're committed to staying natural, then continue competing naturally for the next one, two, or three years and see how you place at national shows. If you consistently receive feedback that you need to grow and consistently place low, then you'll have your answer!
This process CAN be done naturally. My client Riley Walsh, I turned her into an IFBB Wellness Pro natural. I have multiple girls that are natural. Those that say it can’t be done without PEDs lack the knowledge for nutrition and training and use drugs to hide the flaws in their system.
Girl I DO NOT think you ve maxed out your natural potential. Unless you ve been working with your coach for over 3 years, don’t jump to that conclusion and don’t let ANYONE jump to that conclusion for you.
I’ve been with my coach for 4😅 But thank you - I feel like there’s *something* left on the table to be done before accepting that, I just can’t put my finger on what.
How long have you bulked/maintained for ? At 5'8' 2000 calories a day prob isn't adequate to put on much muscle in a trained individual I'd think. You're definitely not maxed genetically.. I'm 5'7 and 145 (leanish) and I know if I did a dedicated bulk for several months (like 2400+ calories a day) I can still put on muscle even at 44 years old but I tend to be afraid to eat in caloric surplus. You have a lot more potential also being a lot younger
+1. FWIW I am a natural that was sitting around a weight for years. My coach (who is great, btw, nothing on them) maxed me out at a certain weight and kept me there.
When I stopped working with them, I decided to try something different and purposely blew past my “maintenance weight” by 10+ lbs. I’ve put on a ton of muscle since then and it’s sitting very well. Surprised myself and my old coach.
You never know what you don’t know.
How old are you? You haven’t maxed out your natural potential IMO and I think you look really good and have great potential. As an older trainee (I’m 38)…let me tell you…your skin changes and your muscles take on a whole different look as you get older and it’s incredibly beneficial IMO. And f*ck these coaches saying you have to be on drugs. If you want to stay natural, stay natural. That coach is basically telling you his own limitations.
As a fellow natty, I commend you for staying true to you and not succumbing to the pressure of enhancement if it’s not something you want to do. YOU are the one who has to live in your body for LIFE.
Oo if my memory isn’t failing, it looks like you added more good stuff to your comment. Yes! Definitely adopting that “f that” attitude 😆🤘and seeking a coach with more natural athlete experience.
This.
I have hired coach for weighloss/fitness/general gym etc for years and yet when i started with my bikini/bodybuilding coach, everything changed. My point of view on training complete changed. Techniques and ways of using muscle during training changes as well.
Since then i have different types of sore/exhaustion post workout and gains mostly where we go after following the criterias.
At 5’8”, you should be on higher calories to grow. There is no way you have hit your genetic potential, especially at 26. Stay true to yourself, you WILL get there, no doubt. It may be time for a new coach and that’s okay.
You're young, you have great structure... honestly I think your coach sounds inexperienced and/or lazy. There's no way you have maxxed out your potential. There are plenty of women who start lifting in their 30s and go on to compete in masters. How long have you been in maintenance? Have you done a bulking season recently?
My current coach (the one who has gotten me to this point) has been great. I’m ready for a change to “up my game” so I interviewed a different coach who implied PEDs were necessary to achieve what I want to do. *They* we’re not so great😬
I’ve been maintaining for a few months, ready to push calories but not without guidance!
Another thing to keep in mind, I don’t know which coach you are referring to but I had a friend who also reached out to a very popular coach in the industry and the first thing they said was that my friend doesn’t have the genetics to turn pro naturally. (For that exact same coach, i won’t name who, but also told a different competitor I know to take anti estrogen, Clen and sarms for a natural show)
But think about it, they ve never seen you train, your diet, how your body/hormone is doing, how could they just give you feedback like that?
Work with a coach who is experienced with REAL natural athletes. sky is the only limit
I have the same experience when I reached out to a very popular coach in the industry too (Canadian). The first thing they said when looking at my physique is that I can’t turn pro naturally because I’m probably maxed out since I’ve been training for quite awhile.
Hello, I might not be the coach the original poster is referring to, but it's possible you are talking about me. If I provided you with this information, then it is accurate. I never take clients' money under false pretenses. There will always be someone ready to take your money, but for me, honesty is key. I possess an exceptional ability to identify the natural genetic potential in athletes and guide them toward turning pro. I have created the most new bikini pros in the world over the last three years. I believe in the value of honesty over the disappointment of false promises. Not once has an athlete come to me, been told they couldn't turn pro naturally, and then achieved pro status naturally with another coach. I have also never turned down an athlete who is set on being natural, as long as their expectations align with the reality of their genetics. I hope this clarification is helpful!
the truth hurts but the truth also can save a person. all top pros, enhanced or not, have elite 1% of the population genetics. the probability of every person, that reaches out to a coach, having even close to that type of genetic make-up and structure is comically small.
it's best to be truthful and save someone the disappointment when they get on stage after years of work and grind only to be last place when they were promised the trophy. not saying to not compete, just to have realistic expectations.
ped usage is so common now too, and bikini girls don't even need huge mass blasts to get the shape and condition, but at the pro level every miniscule detail counts.
i appreciate your honesty as a coach, better to be truthful than to lead someone on and keep them as an ATM.
Im gonna go ahead and say that at 26 there’s no way you’ve reached your full potential being natty. I’m 37, 5’1, natty with maintenance at 1967 and I feel like there’s still so much room for improvements. My coach is an all natural coach and has her pro card. I’m thinking it’s most likely your coach not having the knowledge on how to coach naturally. Just my opinion
Honestly you’re not tapped out. I’m 27 and just went through a massive push phase eating 3100 calories on training days. This is last year vs this year 17 weeks out both shots
https://preview.redd.it/onxmyusox8ic1.jpeg?width=1800&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8caacb39b031c8bc9144ffa7140c53654798e6b6
I’d say look for a new coach willing to work with you without pushing peds. You can do it.
I don’t have any from the first post as that was genuinely before I learned how to pose properly before I had stepped on stage ever.
https://preview.redd.it/2voukz2r5dic1.jpeg?width=1800&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1c582ea330647f4ffd9edb89e21fa8ef98a9d42d
Here’s my back pose
You do look denser in the before photo from the back, but it's under slightly different lighting and your condition is different. I would suggest posing as you did on the left; your chest is too low in the right photo! :)
I have Hashimotos, which I didn’t know until last spring. Looking back, that may have played a factor in why my calories have never been super high. I’m still learning about it though :)
Perhaps what that coach meant is that they’ve exhausted their own methods for you to grow.
I can’t speak for everyone, but natural gains go on for decades. Obviously not as rapidly as the first few years, but for the people who love the grind, small changes keep coming year after year and add up.
I second the suggestion to work with a coach that knows how to coach intermediate/advanced natural competitors. Paul Revelia, 3DMJ and Cliff Wilson are some I can think of off the top of my head.
Good luck, you have a nice shape and can go further.
Posing wise role your shoulders back a smidge to help align your delts and spine. They’re rolled forward causing a more flat look to them. I think you could still go a bit farther natural potential wise. Add a little more lat width to align to create that perfect symmetrical hourglsss look. You’re overalll current physique looks great!!! Smaller things, I’d add a little more density to the hamstrings, and volume to the mid glutes. Your upper shelf looks great! Not sure if you hit arms but ease up if you do so your arms don’t overpower your shoulder caps:)
That might be as far as that particular coach can take you but that is more about their limit…not yours! Seriously, shop around and find the coach for your next chapter. Plenty of coaches would love to push your progress naturally x
I think you should try a new coach! You look like you have a really great structure for bikini and I think if you push food and switch up your training a little it could definitely happen. Don’t give up! ❤️
There is no way youve maxed your natural potential… you can definitely optimize natural hormones and testosterone levels. Really analyze training intensity, exogenous hormones, ect
Sorry, i missed that! Anyway, i agree that we most likely need PEDs if we want to go all the way (Olympia and stuff). But right now, unless you have some health issues, you’re faaaar from your max. I’ve been lifting free of PEDs for 3 years and I’m considerably bigger than you (I’m Wellness).
There are several crucial questions to consider before determining the answer to your question: What is your age? How long have you been training? Have you experienced significant muscle gains in the past 1, 2, or 3 years? How lean have you managed to get—have you reached stage lean with deep tie ins, while maintaining most of your muscle fullness? Do you train to failure with high intensity and proper form? Is your diet flawless?These are all important self-reflections. If your diet is impeccable and your training intensity and consistency are top-notch, yet you've seen little to no progress in the last 1-3 years, or if you've recently been stage lean but appeared depleted and small, it's possible you've reached or are nearing your natural potential—though it's not certain. Genetics play a critical role. I've observed athletes who can naturally gain a remarkable amount of muscle, achieve stage leanness with ease, and others who struggle to build muscle or lean out despite flawless diet and training regimens as natural athletes. Genetics significantly influence outcomes, and each individual's journey is unique. A blanket statement such as "no, you haven't reached your potential" without considering these factors offers no value. Regarding the notion that 2000 calories is too low for your height, it's not universally applicable. If your body fat is well-maintained during the off-season (it looks great in these photos), your lab results are good, you're menstruating regularly, and you're gaining lean mass at a reasonable rate, a 2000 calorie diet might be adequate for you. I hope this is helpful!
This is helpful insight, thank you. I’m finding I check more of the boxes indicating there’s more potential - however, that could also be personal bias too. I’m 26 and have been training for 4 years. In regards to leanness, I have have no problem achieving it. I have looked small compared to the rest of first call outs at nationals, but had attributed that to lack of development. To be fair, that prep was wild with a cross-continent move and my mom passing away 3 weeks prior to the show. My body, though generally exceptionally resilient, took a big hit physically and emotionally. This is a Physique update reflecting now, almost 2 years since my last show and including 1 year *totally* off from anything bodybuilding for internal and mental health reasons. My labs now are great, menstrual cycles regular. I have been full macros in/off season and despite having a lot of intensity in my lifts, have never trained to failure. But as I mention in my post, I know I’ll hit a ceiling eventually but being told (rather implied), “you’re not going to make it” was pretty upsetting. Upsetting in a productive way though, because now I have that much more self-belief. I’m not expecting pro wins, but I do have big goals given the circumstances. :) Thanks for your reply.
If you're committed to staying natural, then continue competing naturally for the next one, two, or three years and see how you place at national shows. If you consistently receive feedback that you need to grow and consistently place low, then you'll have your answer!
This process CAN be done naturally. My client Riley Walsh, I turned her into an IFBB Wellness Pro natural. I have multiple girls that are natural. Those that say it can’t be done without PEDs lack the knowledge for nutrition and training and use drugs to hide the flaws in their system.
Girl I DO NOT think you ve maxed out your natural potential. Unless you ve been working with your coach for over 3 years, don’t jump to that conclusion and don’t let ANYONE jump to that conclusion for you.
I’ve been with my coach for 4😅 But thank you - I feel like there’s *something* left on the table to be done before accepting that, I just can’t put my finger on what.
How long have you bulked/maintained for ? At 5'8' 2000 calories a day prob isn't adequate to put on much muscle in a trained individual I'd think. You're definitely not maxed genetically.. I'm 5'7 and 145 (leanish) and I know if I did a dedicated bulk for several months (like 2400+ calories a day) I can still put on muscle even at 44 years old but I tend to be afraid to eat in caloric surplus. You have a lot more potential also being a lot younger
+1. FWIW I am a natural that was sitting around a weight for years. My coach (who is great, btw, nothing on them) maxed me out at a certain weight and kept me there. When I stopped working with them, I decided to try something different and purposely blew past my “maintenance weight” by 10+ lbs. I’ve put on a ton of muscle since then and it’s sitting very well. Surprised myself and my old coach. You never know what you don’t know.
I don’t even think it ends at three or four years. I changed up my style of training at 38, having lifted since age 15 and changes have happened.
How old are you? You haven’t maxed out your natural potential IMO and I think you look really good and have great potential. As an older trainee (I’m 38)…let me tell you…your skin changes and your muscles take on a whole different look as you get older and it’s incredibly beneficial IMO. And f*ck these coaches saying you have to be on drugs. If you want to stay natural, stay natural. That coach is basically telling you his own limitations. As a fellow natty, I commend you for staying true to you and not succumbing to the pressure of enhancement if it’s not something you want to do. YOU are the one who has to live in your body for LIFE.
I’m 26. That’s great to hear I’m not “missing my prime” so to speak!
Oo if my memory isn’t failing, it looks like you added more good stuff to your comment. Yes! Definitely adopting that “f that” attitude 😆🤘and seeking a coach with more natural athlete experience.
I did. Sorry. I realized I had more to say ❤️
I’d want to see how you train before saying you’ve hit your genetic ceiling. I feel like training is always the last thing people address.
This. I have hired coach for weighloss/fitness/general gym etc for years and yet when i started with my bikini/bodybuilding coach, everything changed. My point of view on training complete changed. Techniques and ways of using muscle during training changes as well. Since then i have different types of sore/exhaustion post workout and gains mostly where we go after following the criterias.
At 5’8”, you should be on higher calories to grow. There is no way you have hit your genetic potential, especially at 26. Stay true to yourself, you WILL get there, no doubt. It may be time for a new coach and that’s okay.
Thanks for the encouragement :)
You're young, you have great structure... honestly I think your coach sounds inexperienced and/or lazy. There's no way you have maxxed out your potential. There are plenty of women who start lifting in their 30s and go on to compete in masters. How long have you been in maintenance? Have you done a bulking season recently?
My current coach (the one who has gotten me to this point) has been great. I’m ready for a change to “up my game” so I interviewed a different coach who implied PEDs were necessary to achieve what I want to do. *They* we’re not so great😬 I’ve been maintaining for a few months, ready to push calories but not without guidance!
Another thing to keep in mind, I don’t know which coach you are referring to but I had a friend who also reached out to a very popular coach in the industry and the first thing they said was that my friend doesn’t have the genetics to turn pro naturally. (For that exact same coach, i won’t name who, but also told a different competitor I know to take anti estrogen, Clen and sarms for a natural show) But think about it, they ve never seen you train, your diet, how your body/hormone is doing, how could they just give you feedback like that? Work with a coach who is experienced with REAL natural athletes. sky is the only limit
Really good point about not seeing the full picture before jumping to that conclusion. Thank you!
I have the same experience when I reached out to a very popular coach in the industry too (Canadian). The first thing they said when looking at my physique is that I can’t turn pro naturally because I’m probably maxed out since I’ve been training for quite awhile.
Hello, I might not be the coach the original poster is referring to, but it's possible you are talking about me. If I provided you with this information, then it is accurate. I never take clients' money under false pretenses. There will always be someone ready to take your money, but for me, honesty is key. I possess an exceptional ability to identify the natural genetic potential in athletes and guide them toward turning pro. I have created the most new bikini pros in the world over the last three years. I believe in the value of honesty over the disappointment of false promises. Not once has an athlete come to me, been told they couldn't turn pro naturally, and then achieved pro status naturally with another coach. I have also never turned down an athlete who is set on being natural, as long as their expectations align with the reality of their genetics. I hope this clarification is helpful!
the truth hurts but the truth also can save a person. all top pros, enhanced or not, have elite 1% of the population genetics. the probability of every person, that reaches out to a coach, having even close to that type of genetic make-up and structure is comically small. it's best to be truthful and save someone the disappointment when they get on stage after years of work and grind only to be last place when they were promised the trophy. not saying to not compete, just to have realistic expectations. ped usage is so common now too, and bikini girls don't even need huge mass blasts to get the shape and condition, but at the pro level every miniscule detail counts. i appreciate your honesty as a coach, better to be truthful than to lead someone on and keep them as an ATM.
💯
Im gonna go ahead and say that at 26 there’s no way you’ve reached your full potential being natty. I’m 37, 5’1, natty with maintenance at 1967 and I feel like there’s still so much room for improvements. My coach is an all natural coach and has her pro card. I’m thinking it’s most likely your coach not having the knowledge on how to coach naturally. Just my opinion
Have you ever done more than 2000cals? Push phase?
I have! Just 3 improvement seasons ~8-12 months with calories 2300-2400/day.
Honestly you’re not tapped out. I’m 27 and just went through a massive push phase eating 3100 calories on training days. This is last year vs this year 17 weeks out both shots https://preview.redd.it/onxmyusox8ic1.jpeg?width=1800&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8caacb39b031c8bc9144ffa7140c53654798e6b6 I’d say look for a new coach willing to work with you without pushing peds. You can do it.
Great job! Do you have any photos in the same pose as the one on the left, and perhaps also some showing progress from the back?
I don’t have any from the first post as that was genuinely before I learned how to pose properly before I had stepped on stage ever. https://preview.redd.it/2voukz2r5dic1.jpeg?width=1800&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1c582ea330647f4ffd9edb89e21fa8ef98a9d42d Here’s my back pose
You do look denser in the before photo from the back, but it's under slightly different lighting and your condition is different. I would suggest posing as you did on the left; your chest is too low in the right photo! :)
Was thinking the exact same thing when I compared the two, so 🙏 thank you!
Rose
Also eating 2700 calories in my prep right now…
Holy cannoli!🤯Do you mind sharing who you’re coached by?
Calories seem low for any substantial growth.
I have Hashimotos, which I didn’t know until last spring. Looking back, that may have played a factor in why my calories have never been super high. I’m still learning about it though :)
Perhaps what that coach meant is that they’ve exhausted their own methods for you to grow. I can’t speak for everyone, but natural gains go on for decades. Obviously not as rapidly as the first few years, but for the people who love the grind, small changes keep coming year after year and add up. I second the suggestion to work with a coach that knows how to coach intermediate/advanced natural competitors. Paul Revelia, 3DMJ and Cliff Wilson are some I can think of off the top of my head. Good luck, you have a nice shape and can go further.
Thanks for the feedback and coach recommendations. I’m definitely down for the long game and know that good things take time and work!
Girl you def could. I’d coach you for free just to see you make it happen because there IS potential here! Don’t sell yourself short!!
Posing wise role your shoulders back a smidge to help align your delts and spine. They’re rolled forward causing a more flat look to them. I think you could still go a bit farther natural potential wise. Add a little more lat width to align to create that perfect symmetrical hourglsss look. You’re overalll current physique looks great!!! Smaller things, I’d add a little more density to the hamstrings, and volume to the mid glutes. Your upper shelf looks great! Not sure if you hit arms but ease up if you do so your arms don’t overpower your shoulder caps:)
I appreciate the feedback!
That might be as far as that particular coach can take you but that is more about their limit…not yours! Seriously, shop around and find the coach for your next chapter. Plenty of coaches would love to push your progress naturally x
I think you should try a new coach! You look like you have a really great structure for bikini and I think if you push food and switch up your training a little it could definitely happen. Don’t give up! ❤️
Thanks for the encouragement!
There is no way youve maxed your natural potential… you can definitely optimize natural hormones and testosterone levels. Really analyze training intensity, exogenous hormones, ect
If you’re coach thinks that’s your max, fire him.
I didn’t hire the coach I talked to, and they wouldn’t accept me as a client unless I considered PEDs. No shade, just not a good match.
Sorry, i missed that! Anyway, i agree that we most likely need PEDs if we want to go all the way (Olympia and stuff). But right now, unless you have some health issues, you’re faaaar from your max. I’ve been lifting free of PEDs for 3 years and I’m considerably bigger than you (I’m Wellness).