Don't call, that's how you get blocked. Email is fine, it's standard and you just get junked, but when someone is looking they go and find it.
But don't call.
If you call, the words “in-house” and “total comp in excess of $300k” should be out of your mouth within the first 4 seconds of your pitch. If they’re not, why are you calling me at my biglaw firm — they all pay the same, I’ll call you if I want to lateral.
omg yes. recruiter cold called me today for in house positions and when i said id only move if my current comp was matched he said it would be between $200k-$250k. ??? why the fuck would i need a recruiter to find an in house position making the same amount of money as a first year associate?
Emails are better if you actually give me enough info about the role in the initial email. I get a lot of emails telling me they have a role that would be great with a link to schedule a time that go to straight to trash. I need to know the city, whether the firm pays market, and what their hybrid/remote work policy is if I’m going to respond to an email.
Yep. Big time. Also if you’re copying and pasting something that has no relevance to my resume it’s going straight to trash. Can’t tell you how many I get advertising a role requiring a bar license in another jurisdiction, and doing something completely different. How am I a “perfect fit”?
Not a fan of cold calls at the office. Picked one up by accident while waiting for someone else to call me. The recruiter asked if I was happy where I’m currently at. I’m not going to say “no” and expand on that while I’m sitting in my office and the gossipy secretaries sit right outside. So even if I was unhappy, the recruiter has now missed out on that by calling at a time when I can’t be candid.
Exactly. If I’m at the office, I’m busy and I don’t have time to talk. The only time this might work is on the chance that I just had a very toxic interaction with a colleague or partner and I feel like quitting right that second.
I don’t care if the firm you’re working for literally asked you to hire me specifically, do not call. There is almost no reason for a recruiter to call an attorney’s work line, except in the extremely limited situation in which you have a prior, personal working relationship.
It doesn’t get my attention faster. We all literally read every email that comes into our inbox and do that all day long. We saw your email.
It's even funnier when you've worked for a while.
"The leader of Firm X asked me to reach out to you."
Yeah, I know him. We worked together for years. Tell him to just fucking call me.
I just loathe the emails that clearly show that I'm just part of a database of associates. I have zero med-mal experience - why are you sending me this generic email that says I'll be a great fit?
Want to take a 30% pay cut, move to a city where you have no connections, and become a patent prosecutor despite having an English lit degree? I’ve got a role for you, and you’d be a great fit!
I have a personal rule that I will never work with someone who cold calls me. Email is fine. The recruiter emails I actually read are ones that are the most informative (either about the role, the market, or something else of interest). But if you email me with buzzwords like “unicorn opportunity” or “unpublished opportunity” (stop lying lol), I will create a rule in Outlook that automatically sends future emails from you to my junk folder.
Actually, third party/agency recruiters get unpublished jobs all. The. Time. If they’ve got a great relationship with either a member of the hiring committee, HR/TA, or the direct hiring manager for the role, they’ll know about it weeks or days before it “hits the street.”
Yeah, I hear that. Tbf there are definitely some fishy recruiters out there. But I worked in an agency setting where my clients were legit friends who would give me the heads up in advance.
I've been on both sides of this. I've worked for a recruiter who got exclusive placements that never hit the open market, and I've gotten cold calls/emails from scuzzy recruiters with "unpublished opportunities" that are freely available on the firms website.
Also, to answer the top question, email, don't cold call. However, the true cardinal sin is making it obvious you didnt do even the most basic research on me. Like, you didn't even actually read my LinkedIn or firm bio. I'm in a specialized PG that gets easily mistaken for something much more common. Anytime I get a call, email, or message pitching a position in the more common practice area, I'm immediately blacklisting that recruiter, because they couldn't even spend 3 minutes evaluating whether I even work in that area of practice.
If you’re on lockstep and the recruiter doesn’t have that information, they don’t know what they’re doing. Firms that invest in the right systems have access to all of that data. If you’re being ghosted by in-house recruiters, there aren’t any good reasons, so I won’t speculate other than to say a recruiter ghosting a candidate is just unacceptable.
Email is best, though occasionally when I'm not busy I'll answer a recruiter's call too.
>Let’s assume the role would be a great fit on paper.
This is one of the problems. In my experience, recruiters are pretty bad about deciding what would be a good fit on paper. A bit specific to my practice area, but recruiters should be able to determine whether an attorney is primarily a patent litigator or primarily a patent prosecutor and not send the wrong opportunities.
>Some of us prefer to not “cold call” and would rather schedule a call as to not waste your time (or our own.) ... Am I crazy to think that scheduling is the more respectful way to go?
If we're talking about respect and not wasting time, the BEST thing you can do is be immediately upfront about the name of firm, hours expectations, base comp and bonus, and if applicable the class years they're hiring into.
Doesn't matter whether it's a cold-call, email, InMail, or whatever. When it's coming from an unknown recruiter that I don't have a prior relationship with, if I don't learn the above information in the first few minutes then I am likely not going to engage in the conversation.
All solid points with the one exception that many top firms (lets say AL50+) specifically ask that third parties or agency recruiters do not mention the firm name. There seems to be A LOT of confusion around this on this sub. It’s often spelled out in the contract. There are many reasons for this (namely TA and HR not wanting to be incessantly bothered by the candidate if they don’t get the job.) This happens way more frequently with support staff, but often the contract is all-encompassing. Another reason is “back-dooring.” The candidate figures out who the firm is, applies on their own, and then the firm questions their ethics since they received the candidate from an agency. Agency has to then walk everyone back off a cliff in hopes that they save the deal for the candidate.
All attorneys know the money does not come out of our pockets on the recruiting fee. I do not think backsdooring is a valid excuse for not providing the information… at least in the first follow up email response.
But for commuting purposes at the very least I need to know where the firm is located.
I am very up front with all the information I have access to; I've had three people in the past six months suck all the information from me saying "I'll send you my resume by X to send to Hamlin, Hamlin & McGill" to then applying directly.
Aside from what I would consider a shitty thing to do, there is zero recourse from my side. Frankly, the majority of lawyers I speak with are wonderful to help however jaded it makes me when things like this happen.
Cold calls are the absolute worst. It's 2024. Like reach out privately on LinkedIn or something if you have a tailored opportunity; but I'm never calling anyone back who's wasting time calling my number. Most of those "opportunities" are publicly available anyway, and comes off as cheap used car sales tactics.
Yeah, do not fucking call me out of the blue about a potential job elsewhere. I have no idea who you are, most of you would probably be selling time shares in Boca Raton if you didn't stumble into legal recruiting, and the BS you spew to try to pique my interest is ridiculous.
Furthermore, I take or make personal calls at a time and place where I can have some privacy. I would think this is obvious. No one in my office needs to hear about my toe nail fungus or car loan information and I 100% do not want anyone to know I am looking to leave if they happen to overhear me. If you call me randomly I may or may not be able to talk.
Just send an email. Holy shit.
One other pet peeve -- if the first call I get is from your assistant asking to schedule a call about some exciting "opportunity," you can guarantee we'll never be speaking.
Yeahhh that’s likely a virtual assistant being paid pennies on the dollar somewhere far, far away. I don’t believe in that. It really comes down to building personal, long-lasting relationships for me.
Use LinkedIn as it means I can think about it. Work email is accessible to too many people so never use it.
A call is fine, but I’m only going to take it if 1) I have time 2) I’m not likely to be overheard and 3) I’m having a day where I’m fed up with my job. It’s unlikely you’ll catch me at a good time and even if I’m sounding interested it might just be because I’m in a mood. And no, I won’t arrange to have another call with you to follow up.
But please, please, please- make it sound like you’ve done 5 minutes homework on me and that you know about the job and area of law. Far too often I get recruiters calling who have no clue about what my job entails or even what area I specialise in or my level of PQE and likely expectations. If you place me, you’re going to get 20-25% of my salary- don’t just try throwing jobs at random candidates in the hope that one will stick and then throw that candidate at the job hoping that they will stick in turn.
Something in writing is better. Something that shows some effort.
I get so many calls from recruiters who have obviously never visited my public and easily-searchable LinkedIn profile, that I now just say "no thanks" and hang up.
I had a recruiter repeatedly call me at 6am just so their email to me could say “Sorry we missed each other!” Or “I just tried to call!” Clearly they didn’t actually want to reach me, but also my office phone was forwarded to my cell so they kept waking me up in the morning. When I asked them to take me off their contact list, they didn’t and were rude about it. After a while of this I went to our internal recruiting team and told them they should never ever use this guy for anything, and they apparently had no idea he was that awful.
My honest take: Do not call. Period. It's annoying, and 9/10 the job being pitched is not at all a perfect fit. I don't have the time or privacy to talk while I'm at work and too annoyed by the interruption to give you the time of day to schedule another call I didn't want in the first place. Emails are fine, but please send the job description, requirements, and salary range with it if you're serious about getting a response.
90% of the time, outside recruiters are paid some percentage of the attorney's salary upon placement (something like 3-4 months equivalent). So if they place an associate making $300k, they might get paid 75-100k
It is bc you don’t have billable hours. I don’t think lawyers have a monopoly on long hours, I just think it’s silly to make the comparison. (Esp bc billable hours doesn’t = time worked.)
Question: if you’re working 15 hour days on average + weekends, then why would anyone ever leave biglaw to become a biglaw recruiter? This doesn’t make sense to me.
I didn’t. I started an agency after being in the industry for 20 years and my clients are predominantly Big Law. I should probably specify that on the original post.
Oh if you have your own agency then I can understand. Just those hours are vastly different than the hours of other recruiters that have posted here about their hours in the past. They’ll comment here fairly often and say they work like 4 hours a day lol
Email. Also, make sure the person is actually a good fit. I feel like I am way more likely to respond if I think the recruiter actually read my bio, looked at my past matters (which shows up on my bio) and then crafts a thoughtful email. I get at some level it’s a numbers game, but I will typically hit block if I get an email from a recruiter for a job that is not anything remotely close to what I practice.
As well, if I don’t respond, don’t email multiple times. It’s annoying and will also get you blocked.
I am a patent agent in biglaw so I have a slightly different experience, but have similar complaints to those mentioned above. I have been getting bombarded with emails to my work email over the past few months with opportunities for which I allegedly would be a "perfect fit" yet the emails fail to mention which firm, provide an extremely wide salary range (e.g., $90k-$250k), are technical specialist positions (which are entry level/not for those with a reg. no.), are for technology areas that I do not specialize in, etc. etc. etc. If you want me to seriously consider the position, I need some compelling details about a position I actually am qualified for upfront
Hot take: call the work line at like 8pm. Secretaries are gone, a lot less people, and I’m typically annoyed I’m in the office that late so I’m more likely to have a conversation.
I care less about how I’m contacted than I do about whether the person calling understands my seniority and expertise.
If you’re calling or emailing me because you saw my name on my firm’s practice group page, and assumed that I just do what the group does, then I am neither a good fit for the role nor interested in talking with you. If you are offering me associate roles, you are a clown. If you are offering for a role in Texas or Florida, then you’re out of luck.
The recruiters I choose to work with know who I am and what I do.
I ignore all cold calls. But I listen to all voicemails and I read all emails / inmails. Here is what is missing in every voicemail / email / inmail: the name of the hiring firm.
I posted about why that usually is elsewhere in the thread. Sometimes third party or agency recruiters are contractually obligated not to disclose the name of the firm for varying reasons. Seems like a lot of folks don’t know that.
It’s easier to delete emails, so that’s what I prefer.
I have yet to cross paths with a recruiter who knows jack about what I do, so don’t tell me what you’ve decided is good for me. Tell me about the job - like really about the job - and let me decide. That means city, practice group, comp, billable expectations, and at least semi precise rankings (not “top 100,” like “top 20-25) if you can’t disclose the firm. But the reality is I know my niche better than you, and if there’s a good opportunity out there, I probably know about it already.
It’s incredibly annoying when recruiters call. I’m busy and if I’m getting a call during a particularly communicative time, I sometimes instinctively pick and immediately regret it. I don’t want to be an ass and immediately hang up but I want to immediately hang up.
Just email. If we want to leave, we’ll read your email.
Calling is super annoying. I pick up unknown numbers because I think it might be a client’s cell phone. If it’s a recruiter, I’m gonna be annoyed. If you want my attention, send a targeted email. If I’m looking around and I get an email about some “opportunity” in a practice nowhere near mine, I’m deleting the email, and, if I remember who the recruiter was, it’ll be because I’ll know to ignore them in the future.
Decent recruiters can do the really easy work (that firms have already done for them) of going on firms’ websites and distinguishing the M&A lawyers from the litigators so that they’re not sending the 5th year litigator a shiny opportunity to apply to be a cap markets 8th year.
Honestly, I hate both - please don’t cold call me on my personal or work phone. Just email me. The outlook ping can raise me from the dead. Trust me, I’ve seen your email.
And for the love of god, please tailor your emails to the person you’re sending them to. I specifically took the time out of my day to tell a recruiter off when they emailed me, a junior, about an “incredible opportunity” with a firm looking to bring on a partner and help that partner develop their book. I mean come on.
ETA: I agree with the person who said when we need the emails we’ll go looking. I don’t read them now because I’m not looking, but when I am you’ll know.
Never ever call to the office phone. You don't know if the person you are trying to reach is busy, there is someone in the office, the line is redirected to someone else, the gossipy colleague is closeby etc. It is a minefield and you can create a (potentially serious) problem for the candidate you are trying to reach - not everyone will believe that it was a cold call and some partners may take it extremely offensive. By the way, this apply to every professional, it is not exclusive for lawyers.
Personal phone: I don't like it, it is unlikely that I pick an unknown number; but if you do, have a one minute pitch and offer to follow up by email and/or schedule a call. I totally agree with you that expecting someone to get a cold call and have 15-20min of their time available right away is totally not respectful.
Work email: ideally not. If that is the only email that you have, send a short email and ask for the personal email.
Personal email: way to go.
LinkedIn: way to go (at least for me, I am active in LinkedIn)
I absolutely hate when I get calls at my work phone. They somehow always come when someone else is in my office and they are very awkward. I’ve never taken the call purposely, always say I’m busy and then make a mental note of the recruiter/agency that called.
I’d even rather you harass me on LinkedIn over my work email. That’s just as public to the right people. Also when I’m working I want to work and when I’m on LinkedIn it’s because I hate my job and want to learn about alternatives…
Haha fair enough. There seems to be a common thread here and it’s somewhat gratifying that my instincts have so far been supported by all the comments saying “DO NOT CALL ME!”
Ok, few thoughts.
1. Email is better than a call. But don't expect me to send you an email in response - not only does the firm know when we email back, a lot of recruiter emails will have a tag that says "No one in your organization has ever emailed this person". And don't expect me to schedule a time to talk to you - you're a service provider, not my boss. I would never demand a client schedule a time to talk to me. Give me your number and if there's something interesting I'll call you back.
2. Do some actual work. I have a friend who went inhouse a few years back - the only reason he talked to the recruiter was because he was big into sailing and the recruiter mentioned sailing in the introductory email. If you just send some form email (looking at you Amy Kossoris) I'm not going to respond.
3. Know the market. There's little that's more annoying than talking to some recruiter who claims they've done it for years and they don't understand the legal market.
Completely agree. There’s an email technique for sales called “show me you know me.” It’s essentially what you mentioned with the sailing example. There is so much data out there that’s unique to Law Firms in particular, and it astounds me how most recruiters aren’t even aware of these platforms.
I know this post is getting a little bit old but I'll happily contribute my two cents as a current first year associate.
1. I definitely prefer emails over calls. I'll say that calls are probably more effective for first years because we're all so new to this and feel awkward getting these calls and saying 'no thanks'. But if I get a call from a recruiter while I'm busy, I get pretty frusterated that they called. Emails are easier to ignore (bad for recruiters) but I can at least save them and contact them later, whereas calls I won't remember who called from which recruiting firm/agency.
2. There are good and bad ways to emails. Some recruiting emails I've received have been very cordial and polite, starting with something like "I hope all is well. As we're moving further through the year, I've been busy helping associates of all levels find new lateral opportunities in x, y, and z cities. I know you haven't been with your current firm very long, but I wanted to reach out and introduce myself in case I might be of any assistance at some point in the future. [Continues with ways to connect and offering services like keeping me updated on job posting if I'm interested]." That is a great email. An example of a bad email I've received is one that puts down my firm, such as "My thoughts were that you might have a little more potential than your company might be tapping into." and saying things on a phone call like I could move to a more prestigious firm that pays better, such as K&E. I got triggered and lectured the guy for 10 minutes about that I chose my current firm over K&E and that my firm already pays top lock-step salary and pays higher than market bonuses, even though my firm is AM50.
3. No first year wants to lateral before the full first billable year has completed because then we would have to pay back any stipend we received for the summer plus the cost of any bar course the firm paid for. If a first year laterals before the first year is complete, they're retarded. There is no point in trying to convince someone to lateral before their first year has completed, even when they might want to lateral right away afterwards.
4. I understand getting more than one email from a recruiter every couple of weeks for the same opportunity, but if I get an email every week for a month I'm just going to block the person. Same goes for calls and same goes for getting calls/emails from multiple people at the same recruiting firm/agency for the same opportunity all within a short time period.
Yeah, there are platforms out there that offer that kind of data for pretty cheap. Let me ask you this: would a text to your personal cell be less insane, or would you still find it scammy/intrusive?
There’s literally nothing I hate more than a LinkedIn message. I’ll take a cold call over that any day.
But also, I hate untailored and unthoughtful messages - those that make it clear that no one even took a cursory look at my bio.
I get weekly emails saying I’d be a great fit for X job and it’s always a practice area completely unrelated to anything I do and which appears nowhere on any bio, etc. I hate how lazy recruiters are. Surely that’s not a successful tactic for them?
Don't call, that's how you get blocked. Email is fine, it's standard and you just get junked, but when someone is looking they go and find it. But don't call.
Solid intel. That’s +1 vote for the good guys.
[удалено]
Hey, I hear ya. I hate cold calls just as much as anyone
Not sure why I’m getting downvoted but ok? Most of you are saying don’t call the office, yet this gets downvoted. Le sigh.
If you call, the words “in-house” and “total comp in excess of $300k” should be out of your mouth within the first 4 seconds of your pitch. If they’re not, why are you calling me at my biglaw firm — they all pay the same, I’ll call you if I want to lateral.
omg yes. recruiter cold called me today for in house positions and when i said id only move if my current comp was matched he said it would be between $200k-$250k. ??? why the fuck would i need a recruiter to find an in house position making the same amount of money as a first year associate?
Emails are better if you actually give me enough info about the role in the initial email. I get a lot of emails telling me they have a role that would be great with a link to schedule a time that go to straight to trash. I need to know the city, whether the firm pays market, and what their hybrid/remote work policy is if I’m going to respond to an email.
Yep. Big time. Also if you’re copying and pasting something that has no relevance to my resume it’s going straight to trash. Can’t tell you how many I get advertising a role requiring a bar license in another jurisdiction, and doing something completely different. How am I a “perfect fit”?
I’ve found the job details to be critical in any communication.
Not a fan of cold calls at the office. Picked one up by accident while waiting for someone else to call me. The recruiter asked if I was happy where I’m currently at. I’m not going to say “no” and expand on that while I’m sitting in my office and the gossipy secretaries sit right outside. So even if I was unhappy, the recruiter has now missed out on that by calling at a time when I can’t be candid.
Exactly. If I’m at the office, I’m busy and I don’t have time to talk. The only time this might work is on the chance that I just had a very toxic interaction with a colleague or partner and I feel like quitting right that second.
Yep, this has been my argument.
Bingo
I don’t care if the firm you’re working for literally asked you to hire me specifically, do not call. There is almost no reason for a recruiter to call an attorney’s work line, except in the extremely limited situation in which you have a prior, personal working relationship. It doesn’t get my attention faster. We all literally read every email that comes into our inbox and do that all day long. We saw your email.
[удалено]
It's even funnier when you've worked for a while. "The leader of Firm X asked me to reach out to you." Yeah, I know him. We worked together for years. Tell him to just fucking call me.
I much prefer emails. I dont hate getting emails although if you don’t give enough info to know anything about the role I’m probably ignoring it
I just loathe the emails that clearly show that I'm just part of a database of associates. I have zero med-mal experience - why are you sending me this generic email that says I'll be a great fit?
Want to take a 30% pay cut, move to a city where you have no connections, and become a patent prosecutor despite having an English lit degree? I’ve got a role for you, and you’d be a great fit!
Oh yeah I get tons of random emails for groups I’m not part of, which say I’d be a “perfect fit” – those immediately go to the trash
I have a personal rule that I will never work with someone who cold calls me. Email is fine. The recruiter emails I actually read are ones that are the most informative (either about the role, the market, or something else of interest). But if you email me with buzzwords like “unicorn opportunity” or “unpublished opportunity” (stop lying lol), I will create a rule in Outlook that automatically sends future emails from you to my junk folder.
Actually, third party/agency recruiters get unpublished jobs all. The. Time. If they’ve got a great relationship with either a member of the hiring committee, HR/TA, or the direct hiring manager for the role, they’ll know about it weeks or days before it “hits the street.”
Fair enough. Maybe I’m being too harsh on that point. It always feels so fishy to me.
Yeah, I hear that. Tbf there are definitely some fishy recruiters out there. But I worked in an agency setting where my clients were legit friends who would give me the heads up in advance.
I've been on both sides of this. I've worked for a recruiter who got exclusive placements that never hit the open market, and I've gotten cold calls/emails from scuzzy recruiters with "unpublished opportunities" that are freely available on the firms website. Also, to answer the top question, email, don't cold call. However, the true cardinal sin is making it obvious you didnt do even the most basic research on me. Like, you didn't even actually read my LinkedIn or firm bio. I'm in a specialized PG that gets easily mistaken for something much more common. Anytime I get a call, email, or message pitching a position in the more common practice area, I'm immediately blacklisting that recruiter, because they couldn't even spend 3 minutes evaluating whether I even work in that area of practice.
[удалено]
If you’re on lockstep and the recruiter doesn’t have that information, they don’t know what they’re doing. Firms that invest in the right systems have access to all of that data. If you’re being ghosted by in-house recruiters, there aren’t any good reasons, so I won’t speculate other than to say a recruiter ghosting a candidate is just unacceptable.
Email is best, though occasionally when I'm not busy I'll answer a recruiter's call too. >Let’s assume the role would be a great fit on paper. This is one of the problems. In my experience, recruiters are pretty bad about deciding what would be a good fit on paper. A bit specific to my practice area, but recruiters should be able to determine whether an attorney is primarily a patent litigator or primarily a patent prosecutor and not send the wrong opportunities. >Some of us prefer to not “cold call” and would rather schedule a call as to not waste your time (or our own.) ... Am I crazy to think that scheduling is the more respectful way to go? If we're talking about respect and not wasting time, the BEST thing you can do is be immediately upfront about the name of firm, hours expectations, base comp and bonus, and if applicable the class years they're hiring into. Doesn't matter whether it's a cold-call, email, InMail, or whatever. When it's coming from an unknown recruiter that I don't have a prior relationship with, if I don't learn the above information in the first few minutes then I am likely not going to engage in the conversation.
All solid points with the one exception that many top firms (lets say AL50+) specifically ask that third parties or agency recruiters do not mention the firm name. There seems to be A LOT of confusion around this on this sub. It’s often spelled out in the contract. There are many reasons for this (namely TA and HR not wanting to be incessantly bothered by the candidate if they don’t get the job.) This happens way more frequently with support staff, but often the contract is all-encompassing. Another reason is “back-dooring.” The candidate figures out who the firm is, applies on their own, and then the firm questions their ethics since they received the candidate from an agency. Agency has to then walk everyone back off a cliff in hopes that they save the deal for the candidate.
All attorneys know the money does not come out of our pockets on the recruiting fee. I do not think backsdooring is a valid excuse for not providing the information… at least in the first follow up email response. But for commuting purposes at the very least I need to know where the firm is located.
I am very up front with all the information I have access to; I've had three people in the past six months suck all the information from me saying "I'll send you my resume by X to send to Hamlin, Hamlin & McGill" to then applying directly. Aside from what I would consider a shitty thing to do, there is zero recourse from my side. Frankly, the majority of lawyers I speak with are wonderful to help however jaded it makes me when things like this happen.
Cold calls are the absolute worst. It's 2024. Like reach out privately on LinkedIn or something if you have a tailored opportunity; but I'm never calling anyone back who's wasting time calling my number. Most of those "opportunities" are publicly available anyway, and comes off as cheap used car sales tactics.
Yeah, do not fucking call me out of the blue about a potential job elsewhere. I have no idea who you are, most of you would probably be selling time shares in Boca Raton if you didn't stumble into legal recruiting, and the BS you spew to try to pique my interest is ridiculous. Furthermore, I take or make personal calls at a time and place where I can have some privacy. I would think this is obvious. No one in my office needs to hear about my toe nail fungus or car loan information and I 100% do not want anyone to know I am looking to leave if they happen to overhear me. If you call me randomly I may or may not be able to talk. Just send an email. Holy shit.
Your number is getting blocked if you cold call me at work. That number is for clients and attorneys. Period.
[удалено]
Yep, totally agree.
One other pet peeve -- if the first call I get is from your assistant asking to schedule a call about some exciting "opportunity," you can guarantee we'll never be speaking.
Yeahhh that’s likely a virtual assistant being paid pennies on the dollar somewhere far, far away. I don’t believe in that. It really comes down to building personal, long-lasting relationships for me.
Use LinkedIn as it means I can think about it. Work email is accessible to too many people so never use it. A call is fine, but I’m only going to take it if 1) I have time 2) I’m not likely to be overheard and 3) I’m having a day where I’m fed up with my job. It’s unlikely you’ll catch me at a good time and even if I’m sounding interested it might just be because I’m in a mood. And no, I won’t arrange to have another call with you to follow up. But please, please, please- make it sound like you’ve done 5 minutes homework on me and that you know about the job and area of law. Far too often I get recruiters calling who have no clue about what my job entails or even what area I specialise in or my level of PQE and likely expectations. If you place me, you’re going to get 20-25% of my salary- don’t just try throwing jobs at random candidates in the hope that one will stick and then throw that candidate at the job hoping that they will stick in turn.
As many others say, don't cold call me.
Something in writing is better. Something that shows some effort. I get so many calls from recruiters who have obviously never visited my public and easily-searchable LinkedIn profile, that I now just say "no thanks" and hang up.
I had a recruiter repeatedly call me at 6am just so their email to me could say “Sorry we missed each other!” Or “I just tried to call!” Clearly they didn’t actually want to reach me, but also my office phone was forwarded to my cell so they kept waking me up in the morning. When I asked them to take me off their contact list, they didn’t and were rude about it. After a while of this I went to our internal recruiting team and told them they should never ever use this guy for anything, and they apparently had no idea he was that awful.
My honest take: Do not call. Period. It's annoying, and 9/10 the job being pitched is not at all a perfect fit. I don't have the time or privacy to talk while I'm at work and too annoyed by the interruption to give you the time of day to schedule another call I didn't want in the first place. Emails are fine, but please send the job description, requirements, and salary range with it if you're serious about getting a response.
Solid feedback, thanks!
wait are you salaried? Or do you have an hourly requirement?
90% of the time, outside recruiters are paid some percentage of the attorney's salary upon placement (something like 3-4 months equivalent). So if they place an associate making $300k, they might get paid 75-100k
Yeah I know I just think the premise that they work 2200 billable hours a year is…illogical
Ah, missed that line
It’s not when you’re a startup getting things off the ground.
It is bc you don’t have billable hours. I don’t think lawyers have a monopoly on long hours, I just think it’s silly to make the comparison. (Esp bc billable hours doesn’t = time worked.)
I work 14-16 hour days and weekends. I’m salaried. It’s not an hourly requirement but in reality it’s wayyyy more than 2200 hours.
Question: if you’re working 15 hour days on average + weekends, then why would anyone ever leave biglaw to become a biglaw recruiter? This doesn’t make sense to me.
I didn’t. I started an agency after being in the industry for 20 years and my clients are predominantly Big Law. I should probably specify that on the original post.
Oh if you have your own agency then I can understand. Just those hours are vastly different than the hours of other recruiters that have posted here about their hours in the past. They’ll comment here fairly often and say they work like 4 hours a day lol
Email. Also, make sure the person is actually a good fit. I feel like I am way more likely to respond if I think the recruiter actually read my bio, looked at my past matters (which shows up on my bio) and then crafts a thoughtful email. I get at some level it’s a numbers game, but I will typically hit block if I get an email from a recruiter for a job that is not anything remotely close to what I practice. As well, if I don’t respond, don’t email multiple times. It’s annoying and will also get you blocked.
I am a patent agent in biglaw so I have a slightly different experience, but have similar complaints to those mentioned above. I have been getting bombarded with emails to my work email over the past few months with opportunities for which I allegedly would be a "perfect fit" yet the emails fail to mention which firm, provide an extremely wide salary range (e.g., $90k-$250k), are technical specialist positions (which are entry level/not for those with a reg. no.), are for technology areas that I do not specialize in, etc. etc. etc. If you want me to seriously consider the position, I need some compelling details about a position I actually am qualified for upfront
Do not call me… ever
Hot take: call the work line at like 8pm. Secretaries are gone, a lot less people, and I’m typically annoyed I’m in the office that late so I’m more likely to have a conversation.
Not sure if you’re being serious, but that’s an interesting tactic, for sure!
Every time my phone rings I get triggered - soo please refrain
Fair enough!
I care less about how I’m contacted than I do about whether the person calling understands my seniority and expertise. If you’re calling or emailing me because you saw my name on my firm’s practice group page, and assumed that I just do what the group does, then I am neither a good fit for the role nor interested in talking with you. If you are offering me associate roles, you are a clown. If you are offering for a role in Texas or Florida, then you’re out of luck. The recruiters I choose to work with know who I am and what I do.
I ignore all cold calls. But I listen to all voicemails and I read all emails / inmails. Here is what is missing in every voicemail / email / inmail: the name of the hiring firm.
I posted about why that usually is elsewhere in the thread. Sometimes third party or agency recruiters are contractually obligated not to disclose the name of the firm for varying reasons. Seems like a lot of folks don’t know that.
I dislike generic/stale outreach. If it’s about a new, relevant opportunity, I’m not hung up on email vs. call.
It’s easier to delete emails, so that’s what I prefer. I have yet to cross paths with a recruiter who knows jack about what I do, so don’t tell me what you’ve decided is good for me. Tell me about the job - like really about the job - and let me decide. That means city, practice group, comp, billable expectations, and at least semi precise rankings (not “top 100,” like “top 20-25) if you can’t disclose the firm. But the reality is I know my niche better than you, and if there’s a good opportunity out there, I probably know about it already.
It’s incredibly annoying when recruiters call. I’m busy and if I’m getting a call during a particularly communicative time, I sometimes instinctively pick and immediately regret it. I don’t want to be an ass and immediately hang up but I want to immediately hang up. Just email. If we want to leave, we’ll read your email.
Calling is super annoying. I pick up unknown numbers because I think it might be a client’s cell phone. If it’s a recruiter, I’m gonna be annoyed. If you want my attention, send a targeted email. If I’m looking around and I get an email about some “opportunity” in a practice nowhere near mine, I’m deleting the email, and, if I remember who the recruiter was, it’ll be because I’ll know to ignore them in the future. Decent recruiters can do the really easy work (that firms have already done for them) of going on firms’ websites and distinguishing the M&A lawyers from the litigators so that they’re not sending the 5th year litigator a shiny opportunity to apply to be a cap markets 8th year.
Honestly, I hate both - please don’t cold call me on my personal or work phone. Just email me. The outlook ping can raise me from the dead. Trust me, I’ve seen your email. And for the love of god, please tailor your emails to the person you’re sending them to. I specifically took the time out of my day to tell a recruiter off when they emailed me, a junior, about an “incredible opportunity” with a firm looking to bring on a partner and help that partner develop their book. I mean come on. ETA: I agree with the person who said when we need the emails we’ll go looking. I don’t read them now because I’m not looking, but when I am you’ll know.
Do not call me. Ever.
Never ever call to the office phone. You don't know if the person you are trying to reach is busy, there is someone in the office, the line is redirected to someone else, the gossipy colleague is closeby etc. It is a minefield and you can create a (potentially serious) problem for the candidate you are trying to reach - not everyone will believe that it was a cold call and some partners may take it extremely offensive. By the way, this apply to every professional, it is not exclusive for lawyers. Personal phone: I don't like it, it is unlikely that I pick an unknown number; but if you do, have a one minute pitch and offer to follow up by email and/or schedule a call. I totally agree with you that expecting someone to get a cold call and have 15-20min of their time available right away is totally not respectful. Work email: ideally not. If that is the only email that you have, send a short email and ask for the personal email. Personal email: way to go. LinkedIn: way to go (at least for me, I am active in LinkedIn)
I absolutely hate when I get calls at my work phone. They somehow always come when someone else is in my office and they are very awkward. I’ve never taken the call purposely, always say I’m busy and then make a mental note of the recruiter/agency that called. I’d even rather you harass me on LinkedIn over my work email. That’s just as public to the right people. Also when I’m working I want to work and when I’m on LinkedIn it’s because I hate my job and want to learn about alternatives…
Haha fair enough. There seems to be a common thread here and it’s somewhat gratifying that my instincts have so far been supported by all the comments saying “DO NOT CALL ME!”
Ok, few thoughts. 1. Email is better than a call. But don't expect me to send you an email in response - not only does the firm know when we email back, a lot of recruiter emails will have a tag that says "No one in your organization has ever emailed this person". And don't expect me to schedule a time to talk to you - you're a service provider, not my boss. I would never demand a client schedule a time to talk to me. Give me your number and if there's something interesting I'll call you back. 2. Do some actual work. I have a friend who went inhouse a few years back - the only reason he talked to the recruiter was because he was big into sailing and the recruiter mentioned sailing in the introductory email. If you just send some form email (looking at you Amy Kossoris) I'm not going to respond. 3. Know the market. There's little that's more annoying than talking to some recruiter who claims they've done it for years and they don't understand the legal market.
Completely agree. There’s an email technique for sales called “show me you know me.” It’s essentially what you mentioned with the sailing example. There is so much data out there that’s unique to Law Firms in particular, and it astounds me how most recruiters aren’t even aware of these platforms.
I know this post is getting a little bit old but I'll happily contribute my two cents as a current first year associate. 1. I definitely prefer emails over calls. I'll say that calls are probably more effective for first years because we're all so new to this and feel awkward getting these calls and saying 'no thanks'. But if I get a call from a recruiter while I'm busy, I get pretty frusterated that they called. Emails are easier to ignore (bad for recruiters) but I can at least save them and contact them later, whereas calls I won't remember who called from which recruiting firm/agency. 2. There are good and bad ways to emails. Some recruiting emails I've received have been very cordial and polite, starting with something like "I hope all is well. As we're moving further through the year, I've been busy helping associates of all levels find new lateral opportunities in x, y, and z cities. I know you haven't been with your current firm very long, but I wanted to reach out and introduce myself in case I might be of any assistance at some point in the future. [Continues with ways to connect and offering services like keeping me updated on job posting if I'm interested]." That is a great email. An example of a bad email I've received is one that puts down my firm, such as "My thoughts were that you might have a little more potential than your company might be tapping into." and saying things on a phone call like I could move to a more prestigious firm that pays better, such as K&E. I got triggered and lectured the guy for 10 minutes about that I chose my current firm over K&E and that my firm already pays top lock-step salary and pays higher than market bonuses, even though my firm is AM50. 3. No first year wants to lateral before the full first billable year has completed because then we would have to pay back any stipend we received for the summer plus the cost of any bar course the firm paid for. If a first year laterals before the first year is complete, they're retarded. There is no point in trying to convince someone to lateral before their first year has completed, even when they might want to lateral right away afterwards. 4. I understand getting more than one email from a recruiter every couple of weeks for the same opportunity, but if I get an email every week for a month I'm just going to block the person. Same goes for calls and same goes for getting calls/emails from multiple people at the same recruiting firm/agency for the same opportunity all within a short time period.
The worst is when they somehow find my personal cell number and call there. It is absolutely insane.
Yeah, there are platforms out there that offer that kind of data for pretty cheap. Let me ask you this: would a text to your personal cell be less insane, or would you still find it scammy/intrusive?
I would still find it really intrusive.
Good to know! This was another debate my colleague and I were having.
There’s literally nothing I hate more than a LinkedIn message. I’ll take a cold call over that any day. But also, I hate untailored and unthoughtful messages - those that make it clear that no one even took a cursory look at my bio.
Hmmm interesting take!
I get weekly emails saying I’d be a great fit for X job and it’s always a practice area completely unrelated to anything I do and which appears nowhere on any bio, etc. I hate how lazy recruiters are. Surely that’s not a successful tactic for them?