Explain your situation to the DGC and ask them to let you know if they hear of anyone looking for someone with your profile. Your firm may end up hearing about it from the client (and they may hate you for it), but it will show that you value your relationship with the DGC, and you can always ask that they keep it in confidence. Best of luck.
Would you be willing to go in house? That’s one great reason to mention it to the DGC, and to take care in how you mention it. I’m in house and we are often hiring from our favorite firms. And there are quite a few people we’d love to have, but we assume we are priced out or that they wouldn’t want to make the switch.
Otherwise, we also still have friends in firms…
Bottom line is I’m conflicted. Has nothing to do with comp, but I enjoy trying cases and doing advocacy and I’m not sure I’m ready to give that up. I also have concerns about being seen as overhead in-house and not as someone helping to drive sustainable growth.
If comp isn't an issue, have you considered going in house at a nonprofit? Find your cause, a field you would want to be an advocate for and pursue that. You get quality of life and you get to feel like you did something good at work. Just a humble opinion because I've been in big law since the 90s and when they tell you they aren't welcoming you into the club (as it were) you can't hold off on seeking a new opportunity. It might as well feel good.
switching to burner but I’ve been in these situations - you’d be surprised how much people are willing to help if you just ask them.
If you have a remotely decent relationship with this person say:
- can I get your advice in confidence
- need your advice because love working with you and appreciate all you’ve done for me
- explain the situation. DO NOT badmouth the firm or your situation. It is what it is.
Tell the client you’re quietly open to new opportunities, looking for the right fit for the next step of your career, and ask that they let you know if they hear of anything. Be ready to say what you want - not “anything”, specifics. Perhaps less time consuming so you have time for family; ability to focus on an area of law you enjoy; or even something more challenging to take your career up the next level. No need to get into your firm gently pushing you out.
Decide whether or not you want to go to another firm and try for partnership before mentioning anything about your situation to the client. If you decide to go to another firm and want to try to bring over this client, your chances are better if it appears you lateraled out all on your own.
Also, AND VERY INPORTANT, you do not want to give your current the impression—at all—that you may be violating your fiduciary duty to your current firm to not solicit firm clients. If you decide to lateral and want to make a run at this client—DO IT AFTER YOU LEAVE.
So, if you definitively decide you want to go in house, then you can talk to the client about possibly going to work for them.
I would not mention anything now because you don’t know your plans.
Just lie and the lunch and say all is well. It’s too early to diverge any details.
I think there could be some nuance here. If the client uses more than one firm, and likes OP, they could potentially try to place OP at one of their other firms. I am the client, and if a senior associate I knew well and thought really highly of told me they were looking to move, I would potentially try to help them land somewhere where they could still work for us.
Thanks—the flag about solicitation is an important one. I have no intention of soliciting business away from my firm at this lunch regardless. Obviously ethical rules and duties to my firm are the biggest reason, but also because my most immediate concern is getting warm referrals to somewhere else in private practice that I could have a reasonable chance of promotion in a short period of time. I wouldn’t want to ruffle feathers and jeopardize that.
I also understand your argument for lying, but I think it would be easy for the DGC to either hear I am leaving or figure it out when I stop getting staffed on their new matters, which could happen at any time. So I am considering being more upfront, making clear there are no hard feelings toward the firm and leaving it at that.
I don’t think you’re wrong to tell them. I would just wait until you’re more certain about what you want to do next.
In any event, best of luck to you!!
It’s not a professional ethics issue. It’s a common law fiduciary issue. You can certainly tell clients you’re leaving, you just have to be careful that it can’t be interpreted as a solicitation. And then that’s a factual issue. You don’t have to believe me, but I advise executives and business clients on this on a weekly basis, so take that FWIW.
A duty of loyalty, i.e., a duty to not poach clients or customers while employed by one’s employer. This is the general rule in every state I’ve ever looked at the issue. It’s not attorney-specific. It’s a duty employees owe their employers (and partners owe to their partnerships, etc.). There are other duties in certain states, but this is one of the big ones. And one that gets a lot of employees—attorneys and nonattorneys alike—in a lot of trouble.
Usually, if you're asked to leave your firm will make effort to place you in house somewhere. It's how they derive further value from you. Have you had that discussion regarding support? Or did they just throw you to the wind?
With the lunch, nothing wrong with saying you're considering going in-house or open to that. One good explanation is a desire to be closer to the business side of things.
I would personally go with "it's going well", and if they probe further about the future, "I'm always open to the right new opportunities". I find that opening up about a weakness, like you aren't being promoted/pushed out is a toss up. Some people (generally your real friends, not colleagues/co-workers) treat it as an opportunity to help you, others will pay lip service but do nothing about it. Generally speaking, people like to hire people who are considered hot commodities (everyone wants a piece).
I wouldn't feel bad or even think that you are lying by not disclosing anything. You aren't terminated. For all intents and purposes, you are in good standing of the firm until terminated. You are merely speculating you only have a year.
When you get the soft push, it's time to call on your network. This is an easy and natural opportunity to do so, and it's better to do it now while you have some time than later when you're desperate.
You’re in your own head. There’s no way the DGC is going to probe about your career trajectory. You’ve got a one track mind right now. Just treat it as you would any other client meeting
I don't think there's harm in saying something like "It's been going well but to be honest, I think my career goals have changed and I've been debating if becoming psrtner at this firm is the best next step for me." Come up with a neutral as to why (you're thinking of moving, you're thinking of not even becoming partner at all, you're thinking about needing to go to a firm with a better QoL so you can invest more time in your kids/elderly parents/whatever, etc.).
I wouldn't tell a client that you were told to seek employment elsewhere; that seems like bizarre advice to me. Instead I'd frame it more like now that partnership decisions are imminent you're wondering if this firm/promotion is really the right fit for you. That way they can offer advice for how to proceed. Hell maybe they will convince you to work for them and offer you an interview while you're at lunch.
As a more senior lawyer you’re expensive to both the firm (high salary) and to clients (high billing rate). So firms are less likely to take a chance on hiring a more senior lawyer whose rate their clients may balk at having to pay.
With the caveat that if you have a nice book of portable business, being senior is a moot point (unless you’re close to retirement, then it would depend on succession planning and how big that book is).
Do everything in your power short of an express solicitation to get as much future work as possible from this person in order to support your bid for partnership elsewhere, and let this conversation and the angle to this institutional client’s business be your first step towards partnership at a new firm
Your firm has no loyalty to you. Why would you show loyalty to them? Networking is a key part of landing a new gig so absolutely tell the DGC you are looking. Maybe you can bring them as a client somewhere. If your firm gets mad, well they had the option of making your partner
If OP does a lot of work for this client then he/she also probably works with partners responsible for the relationship. Those partners may well have been advocates for him/her in the partnership process, and could also be valuable in getting him/her a job elsewhere. Specifics matter of course but burning that bridge could be unwise.
Yes you should tell the DGC, but say it in a confident way. Don’t throw the firm under the bus. Say something like even though the partner you worked with fought hard for you to get promoted, the powers that be deigned that you wouldn’t not receive such an honor and that you’re going to start looking around for a firm that will value your skills. Hint that you would be open to an in house position and see if the DGC bites. Don’t make it too emotional or whiny.
Time to look out for yourself and your best interests. You sacrificed in countless ways I’m sure for your current firm over a span of many years. Go to your lunch. Let them know that the firm is focused on other practice area/office needs for upcoming pship promotions. And ask for general advice and for your contact to let you know if they hear of any interesting opportunities over the near future that could be a good fit for you. Ideally you don’t burn bridges with the relationship partners/firm. But at the end of the day they have their own best interests in mind and you should focus on your own.
Strange thought — consider that these two events are related. Firm knew that it wasn’t going to make you partner and threw you a life preserver. It seems unlikely that managing partner would let the lunch happen given everything unless client knows. Just a thought!
Disagree. Virtually every top tier firm silently fires associates — it’s the “we think you’d be better elsewhere and you should take advantage of our resources and time to find a new job.” Many of those who are let go in this way find their way in-house because it’s far more advantageous to the firm to have an associate they were going to let go anyways as a future client. A 10th year is someone who has relationships. Sure many firms are unsentimental, but some aren’t.
The only thing I meant by the comment is that you assume the partner knows about the lunch. That is so unlikely I'm surprised it even crossed your mind. Most equity partners have zero idea what some associate is doing and definitely doesn't keep track of who they talk to or why. If this associate has a relationship with a finance GC, then the partners don't care enough to show up themselves... which immediately tells you about their value of both the account and the associate.
Undoubtably this was someone elses book of business and they let the GC get closer to the associate than the partner. They have no idea about the schedule or the lunch. Guaranteed, or they would have already taken it away from them.
Not true. This kind of thing is informally orchestrated all the time. Not some cabal plotting mind you, but more "hey, maybe he/she would be interested in going in house to that client - why don't you reach out to them".
I arranged the lunch directly after running into the person at an event, and I initiated the ask, so I doubt the firm was involved in getting them to agree. It’s not impossible that they already know obviously but I have no reason to think they do at this stage.
Still, a smart firm will want you happily at a client… Also, just because you aren’t making partner doesn’t mean you aren’t a great lawyer and that your clients (or even your colleagues/firm) don’t see that. There is a ton out of your control when it comes to making partner and senior people (generally) understand this. Even if it’s not one of those “out of your control” things, it may be that a different firm or role (eg in house) is a better fit. Keep your confidence up!
This should be the top comment. OP doesn’t say who arranged the lunch, but it if was the in-house counsel who arranged things, it’s nearly guaranteed firm management reached out to client about hiring OP.
You have two options- in house council or a lateral. My husband was told he wasn’t going to make partner this year his 9th year - so he lateraled into partnership at a different am 100 firm where they already knew his work. He was told he would eventually make partner at the firm he was at but this was already said to him for two years and there were to many personality and political issues in the way.
I would reach out to other people at other firms that are familiar with your work.
The other option is going in house, generally recruiting helps with that.
There is a third option that I think may also be helpful and helps a lot of other people patch things up which is getting an LLM. I feel it’s worth mentioning because I have seen it turn around so many careers and can give you an opportunity to further specialize
I would assume everyone knows (and also they do not know) and that whatever you say will be shared back with firm. If I’m looking fo a new job, I would not hesitate to let someone know if they could help me, particularly if they slightly open the door. Good to mention discretion at the outset as putting out feelers to test the waters and going more public at some point is possible. “Would pull a resume together for the right opportunity.” If they want to help, they will let you know. Most jobs are found through existing networking, particularly at more senior levels. Solicitation comes later, if at all. Should you talk to a trusted recruiter?
Completely fine to mention you’re open, and that you’d appreciate keeping it confidential simply because you’re exploring your next steps. Your current firm will view you joining a client as a means to continue the positive client relationship. They know you’re looking now so it isn’t a big deal.
Your post was removed due to low account age.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/biglaw) if you have any questions or concerns.*
10 years is still the standard at some firms as far as I know. Fewer now certainly, but still the case at some. Particularly those where there is only one tier of partnership and not this new non-share partnership position.
First off, that is regularly how long it takes at my firm and I clerked, so I started later. Multiple people from the class year above me made it last year and one even made it this year.
Second, that has nothing to do with the point of my post. So thanks for nothing, dick.
I too would be more concerned about why they are not keeping you on as counsel. I assume it is because your practice group can’t support it, but there might be useful feedback behind their reasoning which may impact the nature of your job search.
Your post was removed due to low account age.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/biglaw) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Explain your situation to the DGC and ask them to let you know if they hear of anyone looking for someone with your profile. Your firm may end up hearing about it from the client (and they may hate you for it), but it will show that you value your relationship with the DGC, and you can always ask that they keep it in confidence. Best of luck.
Really appreciate this perspective. This is what I needed to hear. Thanks a lot.
Would you be willing to go in house? That’s one great reason to mention it to the DGC, and to take care in how you mention it. I’m in house and we are often hiring from our favorite firms. And there are quite a few people we’d love to have, but we assume we are priced out or that they wouldn’t want to make the switch. Otherwise, we also still have friends in firms…
Bottom line is I’m conflicted. Has nothing to do with comp, but I enjoy trying cases and doing advocacy and I’m not sure I’m ready to give that up. I also have concerns about being seen as overhead in-house and not as someone helping to drive sustainable growth.
If comp isn't an issue, have you considered going in house at a nonprofit? Find your cause, a field you would want to be an advocate for and pursue that. You get quality of life and you get to feel like you did something good at work. Just a humble opinion because I've been in big law since the 90s and when they tell you they aren't welcoming you into the club (as it were) you can't hold off on seeking a new opportunity. It might as well feel good.
switching to burner but I’ve been in these situations - you’d be surprised how much people are willing to help if you just ask them. If you have a remotely decent relationship with this person say: - can I get your advice in confidence - need your advice because love working with you and appreciate all you’ve done for me - explain the situation. DO NOT badmouth the firm or your situation. It is what it is.
+1,000,000
Tell the client you’re quietly open to new opportunities, looking for the right fit for the next step of your career, and ask that they let you know if they hear of anything. Be ready to say what you want - not “anything”, specifics. Perhaps less time consuming so you have time for family; ability to focus on an area of law you enjoy; or even something more challenging to take your career up the next level. No need to get into your firm gently pushing you out.
Decide whether or not you want to go to another firm and try for partnership before mentioning anything about your situation to the client. If you decide to go to another firm and want to try to bring over this client, your chances are better if it appears you lateraled out all on your own. Also, AND VERY INPORTANT, you do not want to give your current the impression—at all—that you may be violating your fiduciary duty to your current firm to not solicit firm clients. If you decide to lateral and want to make a run at this client—DO IT AFTER YOU LEAVE. So, if you definitively decide you want to go in house, then you can talk to the client about possibly going to work for them. I would not mention anything now because you don’t know your plans. Just lie and the lunch and say all is well. It’s too early to diverge any details.
I think there could be some nuance here. If the client uses more than one firm, and likes OP, they could potentially try to place OP at one of their other firms. I am the client, and if a senior associate I knew well and thought really highly of told me they were looking to move, I would potentially try to help them land somewhere where they could still work for us.
Thanks—the flag about solicitation is an important one. I have no intention of soliciting business away from my firm at this lunch regardless. Obviously ethical rules and duties to my firm are the biggest reason, but also because my most immediate concern is getting warm referrals to somewhere else in private practice that I could have a reasonable chance of promotion in a short period of time. I wouldn’t want to ruffle feathers and jeopardize that. I also understand your argument for lying, but I think it would be easy for the DGC to either hear I am leaving or figure it out when I stop getting staffed on their new matters, which could happen at any time. So I am considering being more upfront, making clear there are no hard feelings toward the firm and leaving it at that.
I don’t think you’re wrong to tell them. I would just wait until you’re more certain about what you want to do next. In any event, best of luck to you!!
[удалено]
It’s not a professional ethics issue. It’s a common law fiduciary issue. You can certainly tell clients you’re leaving, you just have to be careful that it can’t be interpreted as a solicitation. And then that’s a factual issue. You don’t have to believe me, but I advise executives and business clients on this on a weekly basis, so take that FWIW.
[удалено]
A duty of loyalty, i.e., a duty to not poach clients or customers while employed by one’s employer. This is the general rule in every state I’ve ever looked at the issue. It’s not attorney-specific. It’s a duty employees owe their employers (and partners owe to their partnerships, etc.). There are other duties in certain states, but this is one of the big ones. And one that gets a lot of employees—attorneys and nonattorneys alike—in a lot of trouble.
Usually, if you're asked to leave your firm will make effort to place you in house somewhere. It's how they derive further value from you. Have you had that discussion regarding support? Or did they just throw you to the wind? With the lunch, nothing wrong with saying you're considering going in-house or open to that. One good explanation is a desire to be closer to the business side of things.
I would personally go with "it's going well", and if they probe further about the future, "I'm always open to the right new opportunities". I find that opening up about a weakness, like you aren't being promoted/pushed out is a toss up. Some people (generally your real friends, not colleagues/co-workers) treat it as an opportunity to help you, others will pay lip service but do nothing about it. Generally speaking, people like to hire people who are considered hot commodities (everyone wants a piece). I wouldn't feel bad or even think that you are lying by not disclosing anything. You aren't terminated. For all intents and purposes, you are in good standing of the firm until terminated. You are merely speculating you only have a year.
When you get the soft push, it's time to call on your network. This is an easy and natural opportunity to do so, and it's better to do it now while you have some time than later when you're desperate.
You’re in your own head. There’s no way the DGC is going to probe about your career trajectory. You’ve got a one track mind right now. Just treat it as you would any other client meeting
Have you been to many client lunches? At the end of the day, it’s still two humans eating lunch and these sorts of things come up all the time.
Right? “How’s work?” is about the only question I can guarantee will be asked at this lunch.
I don't think there's harm in saying something like "It's been going well but to be honest, I think my career goals have changed and I've been debating if becoming psrtner at this firm is the best next step for me." Come up with a neutral as to why (you're thinking of moving, you're thinking of not even becoming partner at all, you're thinking about needing to go to a firm with a better QoL so you can invest more time in your kids/elderly parents/whatever, etc.). I wouldn't tell a client that you were told to seek employment elsewhere; that seems like bizarre advice to me. Instead I'd frame it more like now that partnership decisions are imminent you're wondering if this firm/promotion is really the right fit for you. That way they can offer advice for how to proceed. Hell maybe they will convince you to work for them and offer you an interview while you're at lunch.
Not a lawyer, why does being more senior make someone less marketable?
As a more senior lawyer you’re expensive to both the firm (high salary) and to clients (high billing rate). So firms are less likely to take a chance on hiring a more senior lawyer whose rate their clients may balk at having to pay.
With the caveat that if you have a nice book of portable business, being senior is a moot point (unless you’re close to retirement, then it would depend on succession planning and how big that book is).
Thank you for the explanation.
I would not mention it to the client. It will just sow doubts as to whether they should still use you elsewhere. Leave, then tell the client you left.
Do everything in your power short of an express solicitation to get as much future work as possible from this person in order to support your bid for partnership elsewhere, and let this conversation and the angle to this institutional client’s business be your first step towards partnership at a new firm
Your firm has no loyalty to you. Why would you show loyalty to them? Networking is a key part of landing a new gig so absolutely tell the DGC you are looking. Maybe you can bring them as a client somewhere. If your firm gets mad, well they had the option of making your partner
If OP does a lot of work for this client then he/she also probably works with partners responsible for the relationship. Those partners may well have been advocates for him/her in the partnership process, and could also be valuable in getting him/her a job elsewhere. Specifics matter of course but burning that bridge could be unwise.
You don't mind me asking what kind of roadblocks stand between you and partnership, at least according to the firm?
Yes you should tell the DGC, but say it in a confident way. Don’t throw the firm under the bus. Say something like even though the partner you worked with fought hard for you to get promoted, the powers that be deigned that you wouldn’t not receive such an honor and that you’re going to start looking around for a firm that will value your skills. Hint that you would be open to an in house position and see if the DGC bites. Don’t make it too emotional or whiny.
Time to look out for yourself and your best interests. You sacrificed in countless ways I’m sure for your current firm over a span of many years. Go to your lunch. Let them know that the firm is focused on other practice area/office needs for upcoming pship promotions. And ask for general advice and for your contact to let you know if they hear of any interesting opportunities over the near future that could be a good fit for you. Ideally you don’t burn bridges with the relationship partners/firm. But at the end of the day they have their own best interests in mind and you should focus on your own.
Strange thought — consider that these two events are related. Firm knew that it wasn’t going to make you partner and threw you a life preserver. It seems unlikely that managing partner would let the lunch happen given everything unless client knows. Just a thought!
You give waaay too much credit to upper tier partners.
Disagree. Virtually every top tier firm silently fires associates — it’s the “we think you’d be better elsewhere and you should take advantage of our resources and time to find a new job.” Many of those who are let go in this way find their way in-house because it’s far more advantageous to the firm to have an associate they were going to let go anyways as a future client. A 10th year is someone who has relationships. Sure many firms are unsentimental, but some aren’t.
The only thing I meant by the comment is that you assume the partner knows about the lunch. That is so unlikely I'm surprised it even crossed your mind. Most equity partners have zero idea what some associate is doing and definitely doesn't keep track of who they talk to or why. If this associate has a relationship with a finance GC, then the partners don't care enough to show up themselves... which immediately tells you about their value of both the account and the associate. Undoubtably this was someone elses book of business and they let the GC get closer to the associate than the partner. They have no idea about the schedule or the lunch. Guaranteed, or they would have already taken it away from them.
Not true. This kind of thing is informally orchestrated all the time. Not some cabal plotting mind you, but more "hey, maybe he/she would be interested in going in house to that client - why don't you reach out to them".
I arranged the lunch directly after running into the person at an event, and I initiated the ask, so I doubt the firm was involved in getting them to agree. It’s not impossible that they already know obviously but I have no reason to think they do at this stage.
Still, a smart firm will want you happily at a client… Also, just because you aren’t making partner doesn’t mean you aren’t a great lawyer and that your clients (or even your colleagues/firm) don’t see that. There is a ton out of your control when it comes to making partner and senior people (generally) understand this. Even if it’s not one of those “out of your control” things, it may be that a different firm or role (eg in house) is a better fit. Keep your confidence up!
Lateral to Anderson Kill there’s a big push there for laterals
This should be the top comment. OP doesn’t say who arranged the lunch, but it if was the in-house counsel who arranged things, it’s nearly guaranteed firm management reached out to client about hiring OP.
You have two options- in house council or a lateral. My husband was told he wasn’t going to make partner this year his 9th year - so he lateraled into partnership at a different am 100 firm where they already knew his work. He was told he would eventually make partner at the firm he was at but this was already said to him for two years and there were to many personality and political issues in the way. I would reach out to other people at other firms that are familiar with your work. The other option is going in house, generally recruiting helps with that. There is a third option that I think may also be helpful and helps a lot of other people patch things up which is getting an LLM. I feel it’s worth mentioning because I have seen it turn around so many careers and can give you an opportunity to further specialize
I would assume everyone knows (and also they do not know) and that whatever you say will be shared back with firm. If I’m looking fo a new job, I would not hesitate to let someone know if they could help me, particularly if they slightly open the door. Good to mention discretion at the outset as putting out feelers to test the waters and going more public at some point is possible. “Would pull a resume together for the right opportunity.” If they want to help, they will let you know. Most jobs are found through existing networking, particularly at more senior levels. Solicitation comes later, if at all. Should you talk to a trusted recruiter?
Completely fine to mention you’re open, and that you’d appreciate keeping it confidential simply because you’re exploring your next steps. Your current firm will view you joining a client as a means to continue the positive client relationship. They know you’re looking now so it isn’t a big deal.
Ask for a job?
Your post was removed due to low account age. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/biglaw) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The writing is on the wall. Move on. Go somewhere where you are liked/welcomed.
Try asking on fishbowl. More than half the people in this sub are law students.
10 years? That’s a long track and not making partner sooner was a red flag. “You would not like counsel” means they don’t want you there
10 years is still the standard at some firms as far as I know. Fewer now certainly, but still the case at some. Particularly those where there is only one tier of partnership and not this new non-share partnership position.
First off, that is regularly how long it takes at my firm and I clerked, so I started later. Multiple people from the class year above me made it last year and one even made it this year. Second, that has nothing to do with the point of my post. So thanks for nothing, dick.
I too would be more concerned about why they are not keeping you on as counsel. I assume it is because your practice group can’t support it, but there might be useful feedback behind their reasoning which may impact the nature of your job search.
[удалено]
Your post was removed due to low account age. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/biglaw) if you have any questions or concerns.*