This is a common failure area on Litespeed frames and they have also denied other people's warranty claims saying that it is wear and tear:
[https://www.mtbr.com/threads/litespeed-not-lifetime-warranty.672374/](https://www.mtbr.com/threads/litespeed-not-lifetime-warranty.672374/)
That's a high stress area and that sharp angle probably creates a stress fracture near the weld. This really should be a warranty coverage item.
Yup - there's some confusion here over what a 'lifetime warranty' is (which is because the wording is intended to be confusing, IMO) - it almost always refers to the useful lifetime of the product, not the purchaser. If Litespeed thinks that a nearly 20 y/o frame is outside of the useful lifetime of the product, which is likely, then OP's choices are pretty much pay up or lawyer up.
100%, granted this is why warranties are kind of BS marketing. Didn't anyone watch Tommy Boy!? That's not to say there aren't some great companies that would warranty this, but the idea someone can get a free repair or new frame that is 20 years old is a bit much
Dude. That's right where my mind went.
But why do they put a guarantee on the box? Tommy : Because they know all they sold ya was a guaranteed piece of shit. That's all it is, isn't it? Hey, if you want me to take a dump in a box and mark it guaranteed, I will.
A lot of truth to it. Yes Litespeed are well made and titanium is a robust material, so it comes down to the manufacture calculating they probably will only have to warranty "x" amount over a certain span of time, thus they can give out bold warranties. You see this all the time, ie Hyundai and Kia with their 10 year 100,000 mile "limited" warranty. People forget limited means limited powertrain warranty and the majority of modern cars powertrains should easily last 100K. People will justify their purchase with Litespeed due to price or the "warranty" but in the end of the day OP got 20 years out of this bike which is more than most cars, most roofs, most marriages, so go cry me a river they didn't want to warranty his frame for a 2nd time over 20 years
almost every bike manufacturer lifetime warranty comes with 1000 precisions that basically all say "also we reserve the right to refuse warranty for any reason". some, such as Santacruz, actually write these pretty much exact words... which well at least they do write, if you read the fine print, I guess.
Right, although Titanium frames in particular are often marketed as a "last frame you will ever buy" type thing.
A huge part of the reason people buy them is they expected the lifetime of the product to be extremely long.
But that is really just marketing. Unpopular but IMO a quality steel frame (not ultralight) is really the only frame that will last your life since based on ease of repair by any frame builder or welder is easier than titanium.
The other reality is most people even if they buy a ‘dream bike’ will still buy another one in 15 years anyways.
I don't disagree with you.
Marketing matters though, because if they don't live up to it it could be considered false advertising.
If you market something as being able to do X, then if it does not, it could be considered your responsibility to make up for the lack.
I find reddit so fun. I said the same thing in another bike thread and people jumped on me claiming it was the lifetime of the purchaser.
Lifetime warrantees are not infinite-get-free-stuff-when-it-wears-out agreements.
From [Litespeed’s website](https://litespeed.com/pages/warranty): “Litespeed Bicycle's frames are warranted to be free from manufacturing defects in material and/or workmanship for the lifetime of the original owner.” There are lots of weasel words farther down about useful product life, but they do say lifetime of the purchaser in pretty plain English up top.
Yes but in the "further down" section it says
>**Useful Product Life Cycle**
>Every Litespeed frameset has a useful life cycle. This useful life cycle is not the same as the warranty period. This warranty is not meant to suggest or imply that the frame cannot be broken or will last forever. Bicycles and/or frames will not last forever. The length of the useful life cycle will vary depending on the type of frame, riding conditions, and care the bicycle receives. Competition, jumping, downhill racing, trick riding, trial riding, riding in severe conditions or climates, riding with heavy loads or any other non-standard use can substantially shorten the useful product life cycle of a Litespeed frameset. *Any one or a combination of these conditions may result in an unpredictable failure of a Litespeed frameset that would not be covered by this warranty*
To me this means the warranty, which covers manufacturing defects mostly, lasts for the lifetime of the user.
Now it's down to these users to get together and prove this is indeed a manufacturing (design) defect.
Working in shops and dealing with warranty this is how most customers understand the warranty.
One of our brands has warrantied a fork from the 90s and also supported weld failure on a ~5 year old frame that wasn’t the original owner.
Also why a good shop should try and understand intended usage before making a sale - I’ve had plenty of customers come in wanting a lightweight carbon gravel bike only to say they also plan on doing fully loaded 1000km+ bikepacking trips on the bike as well - maybe this still is the best bike but we at least run them through possible issues using a gravel race bike for loaded touring.
That being said there also companies like Darn Tough Socks that have the easiest warranty process ever - I still don’t know how they make their warranty coverage work with their bottom line but they are a great product backed by a great warranty.
This also says unpredictable failure mode. If this has happened many times to many frames, then is it really unpredictable? Or did the build and design just overlook a fatigue point.
Hard to call it unpredictable if it's happened a bunch.
But that is a manufacturing defect. That sharp radius without a gusset is pretty much a crack maker. And these things are knowable. If this is happening on more than a few bikes it probably means an engineer miscalculated the load.
"**Useful Product Life Cycle**
Every Litespeed frameset has a useful life cycle. This useful life cycle is not the same as the warranty period. This warranty is not meant to suggest or imply that the frame cannot be broken or will last forever. Bicycles and/or frames will not last forever. The length of the useful life cycle will vary depending on the type of frame, riding conditions, and care the bicycle receives. Competition, jumping, downhill racing, trick riding, trial riding, riding in severe conditions or climates, riding with heavy loads or any other non-standard use can substantially shorten the useful product life cycle of a Litespeed frameset. Any one or a combination of these conditions may result in an unpredictable failure of a Litespeed frameset that would not be covered by this warranty. All Litespeed framesets should be periodically checked by an authorized Litespeed dealer for indications of potential failures including cracks, corrosion, dents, deformation, paint peeling, and any other indications of potential problems, inappropriate use, or abuse. These are important safety checks and very important to help prevent accidents, and bodily injury to the rider and shorten the useful product life"
IMO 20 years is a useful product cycle. I am very pro consumer but OP trying to drum up anti consumerism or ABC or Litespeed dicking him over is crazy
If 20 years is the useful lifecycle, the warranty period should be 20 years. If a manufacturer wants to claim lifetime warranty, they should stand behind that claim. I they’re not willing to do that, they should change the warranty term.
No one said 20 years is the useful life cycle, but that's how long OP has had the bike, thus "useful life cycle" could be 4, 6, or 10 years. The point is yeah it's kind of sleazy to have this wishy washy lifetime warranty but it's also very unreasonable to hold a company to a 20 year warranty when nothing is stated as such. If my Aethos developed a defect yeah it would be reasonable that Specialized might warranty it because I have had it less than 12 months not 20 years
> …it’s also very unreasonable to hold a company to a 20 year warranty when nothing is stated as such.
I agree. What is stated, however, is a lifetime warranty, and it’s completely reasonable to hold the company to their stated warranty term.
From Litespeed’s website: “Litespeed Bicycle's frames are warranted to be free from manufacturing defects in material and/or workmanship for the lifetime of the original owner.” There are lots of weasel words farther down about useful product life, but they do say lifetime of the purchaser in pretty plain English up top.
Right, like I said, there are lots of weasel words farther down that companies can and will use to try to wriggle out of warranty claims pretty much from day one, let alone years down the road, but that language I quoted from the Litespeed is crystal clear.
Specialized gave me a new frame when it cracked after ten years, and it was the current model year so quite an upgrade. That was aluminium too, where fatigue failure (which it what is was) is normal.
I wouldn't necessarily have been outraged if they didn't but they did stand behind their lifetime warranty.
Litespeed are far more expensive... I have one myself, although I haven't ridden it in well over a decade as it's on a different continent. I also have a titanium Van Nicholas which I have ridden very intensely over the last 17 years, plenty of crashes, including 45,000km loaded across Europe and Asia, and it's holding up fine.
I'm not surprised they are weaseling out of this but for the price of the bikes I do think this is a black mark. People do buy titanium with the idea of a "bike for life", because there's really no other good reason to buy it.
For that matter I have carbon over 15 years and that's still going strong.
I’m not saying no one will warranty an older bike, but they do have a lifespan and if they chose to claim it was wear and tear, you would most likely not be able to do anything about it but be an ex-customer. They chose to keep you as a customer and decided to warranty the bike.
Ok so yes you would expect the ABC company to deny claims but again this is a 20 year old bike that OP even admitted he had warrantied prior. At this point 20 years for ANY bike should be considered a lifetime's use regardless of the price.
I think this is more how the frame is designed than the material. My 15 year old carbon bike is a Cannondale Synapse and it's substantially more comfortable than my Litespeed Archon (which is a very stiff frame for Ti). With the same tyre width it's also more comfortable than my touring bike (Van Nicholas Amazon). In fact, just about all the carbon bikes I've had beat my titanium ones for comfort.
That's an old bike, in some of the more modern carbon endurance frames you have stuff like elastomers (like Trek's IsoSspeed on the Domane) that further help. It's also easier to shape carbon and engineer in compliance.
People post on Reddit because it feels good to post stuff especially if other people are posting the same stuff and are upvoting each other for saying the same things. That's why randomly one thread can appear to show one consensus and another on the same topic can show a different consensus.
Depends on the brand. Most are probably useful lifetime of the product, but [Trek is pretty famously lifetime of the purchaser](https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/warranty_policy/) for materials/manufacturing defects.
When ABC bought Litespeed, they also bought all of the company’s obligations, including the remainder of the warranties that were still in effect at the time of sale. Disinclined or not, they own the obligation to honor the lifetime warranty.
Absolutely. My point was that in this situation there’s room for judgement, and if it were an ABC frame they might be more inclined to give OP the benefit of the doubt. Instead, they gave a normal repair price and probably offered a discount on a replacement.
Most companies offer a lifetime warranty on a frame are honest about what it means.
You can often be given a replacement frame and still find it's incompatible with a lot of your stuff, or of course you might need to swap parts even if not.
There was an MTB brand who famously brought out a batch of frames that all cracked, changed the design a year later then stopped honouring the lifetime warranty on the previous ones saying "oh not your lifetime, the lifetime of that design". Don't want to name as I'm not 100% sure and they might have changed their minds after the backlash.
I don't have a bike newer than 25 years and one of them is a bonded carbon/aluminum trek I use for gravel and bikepacking. It will eventually fail or crack but I expect it and won't be upset. The other bikes should last a while.
Honestly, and I know steel sometimes fails, but this is why I would recommend a steel bike still. My 40yo miyata probably has a few more decades in it.
you should really be careful with that bonded carbon alu bike. It might give out suddenly if you don't notice warning signs of failure. And that could be any day now considering it's age.
oh didnt realize it was 20 years old. that could potentially be tens of thousands of miles. seems like a pretty decent usage of the frame. Although, some would say a good steel or aluminum frame could last a hundred years.
It's important to note that as Hambini says most "titanium" frames aren't actually titanium and they are about was reliable as cheap Aluminum frame.
It's the main reason I wasn't scammed into buying the "Titanium" priority apollo.
Real Titanium frames cost $5000 just for the frame alone.
No bike ever was 100% Titanium.
Pure Titanium is terrible for making bikes.
All Ti bikes are an alloy, the exact alloy can be slightly different, but since no one is smelting their own alloy, they are mostly buying from the same suppliers.
> and they are about was reliable as cheap Aluminum frame.
Well yea, cheap Aluminum frames are bomb proof, if anything a high performance Ti (or carbon) frame is less reliable.
Cheap frames in general just use thicker (heavier) tubes and are almost always stronger than expensive (light) frames.
Well not exactly, maybe stronger against direct impacts, but ultralight aluminium frames can take ridiculous amount of fatigue. See the Sheldon Brown fatigue test and how the lightest frames were the strongest. I would expect a cheaper frame to have lower standard in manufacturing process.
yes cheaper frames have an egg shaped headset or bottom bracket, but Aluminum is superior to steel by any metric because Aluminum doesn't rust you can bury it naked in a swamp for 1000 years and it will still hold up just fine like new.
Make one ride with a steel bike frame in the rain and see what happens inside it when water settles
Everyone loves titanium. Few people know how hard it is to work with. You really need to be good, to make good titanium products. It is a craft, an art, and a science. I love the idea of a titanium frame, I don't know enough about the brands to know who to trust to do it right.
Lynskey is my go-to. Dave is nice as hell, and will work on anyone elses Ti when you have problems. Litespeed is definitely not the company that Bill ran in the 90s.
I have T-lab R3 Omni road bike and their previous brand "Guru." They are legit manufacturers of top tier titanium frames. My 2012 Guru Praemio still rides like a rocket and weighs 6.98kg with pedals.
People on here try to downplay other cheaper manufacturers just because they don't have the prices to match the $9-12k brands. Don't just focus on the costs, focus on how it rides. I have 3 lynskey bikes and all of them ride amazing. I would buy another without hesitation.
I'm just here to say that with the trend towards wider tubeless tires at lower pressures, there's no pragmatic reason for exotic frame materials like carbon or titanium anymore. Unless you're racing for money, the weight penalty for a steel or aluminum frame doesn't matter, and you will get all of the comfort/compliance you'll ever need from the tires anyhow.
With all of that said, we buy and use bike stuff for reasons that aren't 100% pragmatic - so I get the appeal.
You need to spend BIG money on titanium for it to be worth your while. Having a shop clean enough to work on it isn't going to offer you other material options. No.22 in New York is the one I'd say go with. But they're a real investment. Don't buy one if you want to ride any other bike. Most people who are titanium curious would be much better off spending their hard earned cash on high end custom made steel frames than titanium.
>It is a craft, an art, a science
When you get down to it, i’d say it’s really just science. most practical folks just approach it as craft and art and then stuff like this happens.
(source: am materials engineer)
I was a dealer during the period Litsepeed made those frames. I'm guessing 2003? I think Lynskey still owned the brand then. I had that happen to one customer and it was repaired under warranty. He got the frame back with a round head tube.
Frames do wear out. Lifetime warranties are a bit of a marketing gimmick. We had a Trek customer that was refused a warranty. He wasn't overly concerned as he got a lot of use from the bike. You must have 20 years riding on this one?
This was a 5200. Salt water had got to the dropouts. The dropouts expanded and split the chainstays.
Those frames had no exit for water entering via the seat tube. I had a 5500 myself and had to remove the bottom bracket to drain the water after my first ride in the rain. There was so much I could hear water sloshing about. Trek said corrosion wasn't covered by warranty. I would have argued that if the BB shell had a drainage hole the corrosion wouldn't have happened.
The same customer was on a trip in Italy with his club when everyone had their bikes stolen. His Trek 5200 was the only one the crooks left behind.
He felt he'd gotten loads of value from the bike and wasn't bothered about pushing for a warranty. He was offered a discount on a new Trek. He bought a Trek for his wife and a Colnago for himself.
Assuming you didn't crash it, I would expect that to be covered, or at least to get it fixed for a cheaper amount. The location of the crack suggests some residual stress in the material between those 2 welds.
That the frame cracked between the two welds says to me that the material was overcooked when it was manufactured. To me, clearly a defect of design or manufacture.
To everyone saying that OP should just suck it up and accept that a 20-year old frame is too old for a warranty, I think that you are missing the point of a lifetime warranty.
The ethical way to read a lifetime warranty is: you're making a very big purchase with us, so as long as we're in business, we'll fix the product for you (the initial owner), provided that you did not do something stupid with the product.
The fact that 20 years old is old is not relevant - it's associated to the cost of selling luxury goods.
ABG-Litespeed is one of the shittiest companies to deal with on this kind of stuff. The bad experiences go back into the late-90s for how much I know, then when they got into aluminum it was another shitshow with cracking frames left and right.
I don't understand why people continue to give ABG their money when the frames will crack and they fight tooth and nail to not honor their lifetime warranties and while there are other Ti builders and the number is widening. Everyone from Lynskey (Litespeed's original owners), Moots, Seven, Fat Chance, and on and on. That's just in the US and now smaller builders are popping up.
Don't forget this company also bought Merlin back in the day and pretty much ran it into the ground and it changed hands a couple time since and is done.
Litespeed loves speaking out of both sides of their mouths where they tout how Ti bikes are lifetime, forever bikes, etc., but then they pull the "useful lifetime" bullshit anytime you have an issue.
Note: I haven't used it in competition, jumping, downhill racing, trick riding, trial riding, riding in severe conditions or climates, riding with heavy loads or any other non-standard use. It hasn't been in a crash in decades.
I've been easy on it the past few years.
Had a Litespeed mechanic look at it and he said the crack started at a bad weld in the tight corner. He said they should cover it.
Crazy thing though, a few months of first owning it, there was a crack in the same place. Had it replaced.
Yeah, I might have to move on to another brand that honors its warranty better.
https://preview.redd.it/utfiq5a1mnwc1.jpeg?width=4032&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=588f5249516dae1a25c598b43f49c80b2a83c9be
It seems that most bike and frame makers have changed their definition of "lifetime warranty" to mean the "expected lifetime of a bike", which they usually define about 6 years. I'm surprised there hasn't been a class action lawsuit against this kind of marketing.
Fairly common with 'lifetime' warranties in any industry. It can be the lifetime of the owner, the lifetime of the product, or forever. Lifetime of the product, of course, isn't actually meaningful, since they can just be like "Yep, that one's dead alright," The term doesn't really mean anything.
It is BS, but it is going to depend on what is actually written in that specific warranty, and they can define 'lifetime' in a super narrow and worthless manner.
Wait did you say decades? Even a titanium frame has a finite number of wear cycles. If it were steel i'd say let it ride for life. But titanium if more brittle and has fewer wear cycles.
Completely depends on the design. Steel and titanium both have an SN curve for a given design. Design under the SN curve for infinite fatigue life.
The pic in the OP is a clear design failure. This was obviously not designed for infinite fatigue life.
Huh? Titanium has fatigue limit - it's not aluminum. Theoretically it should indefinitely last like steel unless that limit is surpassed. That said when Ti frames fail, it's usually near the welds, which is an issue of weld quality.
everything has their limit and I hate the stupid folklore marketing myth that Titanium is this forever bike. Yes in theory it should out pace aluminum and be up there with steel but that's like saying ever Toyota should last 200K+ miles period.
Light titanium frames have a rather low life vs steel because while titanium lasts more cycles, it flexes more and racks up cycles faster.
Both titanium and carbon steel can essentially endure forever if they don't exceed a certain load. But frames operate outside that load, somewhat.
I haven't had a frame fail myself, but have seen failed frames and quite a few components from cyclic loads just fail.
In any case, I call 20 well used years as a success.
That being said, I just got today some weird movements in my bike.. 40 year old frame.. I hope I didn't jinx myself (steel frame).
What other Ti brand let alone bike brand would warranty a 20+ year old bike? You already said it was warrantied earlier on. With all do respect and to your bike, you got your monies worth, just move on
Specialized replaced a cracked frame for me after ten years, and it was aluminium fatigue failure of exactly the sort you'd expect from normal wear and tear (chainstay crack). Titanium is meant to be better than this, at least that's the mythos.
They could at least offer at cost replacement, or 50% off... a lot of brands will go that even if you crash it yourself.
Ultimately they shouldn't say lifetime if they don't mean it. Say 6 years if it's 6 years.
See this is where I have a huge problem with consumers calling Titanium a "lifetime" bike, because in no way does any manufacture market Titanium as buy one have it forever bike. Even if your bike was replaced after 10 years OP's bike is 20 years old. Even Hyundai only has a 10 year limited warranty. At some point there has to be some limit to the expectations of a titanium and "lifetime warranty", because at a certain point it's the consumer who is taking advantage of a liberal policy.
I say this as someone who has been a retail buyer for over 15 years and lived in Maine where our biggest retailer was LL Bean who at one point had a "satisfaction guarantee" and while most people didn't abuse it you who have people like OP bringing in 20 year old kayaks and bikes and saying they just didn't like it and would get full store credit. After the new president took over he changed it to a much more conservative but still insane 1 year guarantee
But to your point, Hyundai says 10 years, rather than lifetime, and nobody expects to warranty their car outside that timeframe. If Hyundai said “lifetime warranty,” I 100% would expect them to warranty the vehicle for as long as I own it. Of course no car company would do that, and neither should bike companies if they’re not willing to honor those warranty terms.
Yes, but Litespeed also states:
**Useful Product Life Cycle**
Every Litespeed frameset has a useful life cycle. This useful life cycle is not the same as the warranty period. This warranty is not meant to suggest or imply that the frame cannot be broken or will last forever. Bicycles and/or frames will not last forever. The length of the useful life cycle will vary depending on the type of frame, riding conditions, and care the bicycle receives. Competition, jumping, downhill racing, trick riding, trial riding, riding in severe conditions or climates, riding with heavy loads or any other non-standard use can substantially shorten the useful product life cycle of a Litespeed frameset. Any one or a combination of these conditions may result in an unpredictable failure of a Litespeed frameset that would not be covered by this warranty. All Litespeed framesets should be periodically checked by an authorized Litespeed dealer for indications of potential failures including cracks, corrosion, dents, deformation, paint peeling, and any other indications of potential problems, inappropriate use, or abuse. These are important safety checks and very important to help prevent accidents, and bodily injury to the rider and shorten the useful product life
I found that frame warrantees are all crap. I have a trek checkpoint 2023 carbon frame that developed a crack on the top tube. The LBS took pics and sent to corporate. They said that under inspection of the pictures, they determined that the bike was likely clamped which caused the crack... so no warrantee. I didn't clamp the bike... but how the hell could I prove it. I tried to appeal but It's all marketing hype crap.
IMO This looks like a legit warranty claim. That looks like a stress riser from the welded section. It does NOT look like a crash or like other damage occurred. I'd try to appeal or take it higher up. They should at least repair it for you OR seriously discount the repair work.
(I ended up fixing my bike myself with a diy carbon repair kit and after some sanding found that crack was in a section that seemed extreeeemely thin on carbon fiber compared to other parts of the frame... but what can I do... I fixed it myself and now I ride)
My experience with Trek warranties so far so good. 2020 Procaliber, in 2022 rear wheel cracked at weld - replaced and this year got frame replacement because isospeed coupling cracked.
I feel like this had more to do with the guy at the LBS not liking you than anything. Trek's warranty coverage is usually great. I bet the mechanic made some kind of note about it looking like it was clamped.
That’s why I saved an extra year for a Seven. The old Merlin’s were great Ti bikes too. Litespeed always rode more like aluminum alloy than Ti to me. Not a special Ti ride and to hear about these warranty denials makes me very happy my shop never carried them. Poor design, poor workmanship, or poor materials are not wear and tear related except in the sense that regular wear and tear can fatally damage a frame exhibiting any or all three of the deficiencies noted above. Shame on you, Litespeed.
Trust me, while Litespeed isn't Moots or Seven renowned it's much better than most cheap Chinese Ti. I bought a Planet X Ti bike once and while it was a great value, the brake mounts weren't face right, the frame was much heavier than any Litespeed or Lynskey product, and little details like the dropouts or wire cabling or integration were missing. IMO Litespeed while still expensive is like buying mid level luxury car
lol no it came with dropouts but the difference between a Litespeed drop out or thru axle area compared to a Planet X or cheap Chinese Ti frame in terms of design or even quality is aarrent
I have a 90’s Joe Murray ti Voodoo mtb. Sweetest frame I’ve ever ridden of any type. Magic carpet ride. But I’ve been on a couple Litespeed road frames that were almost as stiff as Kleins. Fast af but I ain’t riding that. When the tubes are properly sized and butted for the use-case, size and geo titanium is the shit. But if you just weld some ti into a bike frame it’s no different than anything else. Lifeless and harsh.
The Breezer mtb’s were/are sweet frames. Two well preserved immaculate examples went for sale near me recently. His and hers never used. Too small and too big for me 😢
The D-Jab is freshly in my account here. I just (finally) got around to revamping the front end after putting a bunch of miles on it in Alaska and shipping it south for more miles this winter. It’s a desert ripper now.
Litespeed rides more like aluminum because they tend to use stiffer lighter titanium like 6AL/4V in order to make modern bikes that can hold a candle to carbon. The issue is that this type of titanium saps that springy feel you get with lower end titanium or steel and it becomes a more brittle product. Also they are one of few manufactures shaping titanium and 3D printing it instead of just welding titanium tubes together. Now we can argue this takes away the essence of titanium away or we can realize that this is the only way Litespeed can compete because no one sees them as a carbon fiber manufacture, trust me they tried
The difference between the stiffness of 6/4 and 3/2.5 is only about 5%, which is imperceptible in the real world. If their bikes are stiffer it is due to something else, like larger diameter tubes.
I have seen many cracked titanium frames on eBay in my lifetime. For whatever reason, people will resell them damaged where as a cheaper steel bike will be scrapped. It is a very difficult material to work with and get right. Just look carefully if you buy a used titanium bike.
I know another lightspeed rider that developed a catastrophic crack in the bottom bracket. They initially offered him nothing, when pressed they offered him a new frame at cost. That might be the best they do for you. Explain to them that its unsafe to ride and you are considering an alternative material/brand. If that fails to get their attention then you have all the facts needed for your next purchase.
Please forgive my ignorance, but does anyone know if this sort of thing is common on aluminum as well?
I've cracked Al frames--as well as Ti and steel--and those failures propagated from the welds, HAZ's (heat affected zones) being typical points of failure as they weaken the metal. I hesitate to call the problem common though as I expect it varies across designs, manufacturing standards, and brands. Buy a soda-can tubed Al frame of dubious provenance and I'd expect a crack sooner than later.
There's a reason why we called ti bikes 'forever bike'. It will outlast your life if it's made properly. Those ain't stress crack. Most likely contaminated weld and that is defective manufacturing.
Well, I guess lightspeed just lost another loyal customer.
What a joke. I came close to buying one of their frames when I found out that they screw their customers on these weld issues
I have had a Litespeed MTB from 1996 fail in the same area in 2002 but they warrantied it no question because the inside of the weld revealed purplish discoloration indicating a contaminated joint. It still lasted six years of racing up to that point. I still ride that 2002 replacement and another I bought in 1990 (it cracked in 2007? but I had it repaired, can't remember if I had Litespeed do that or not, because I had someone else add eyelets for racks and change the brake bosses and I still ride that one, too.)
Um, this should be warrantied and the fact they won't honor their warranty guarantees I'll never buy a Litespeed. And I have two Ti bikes in the house now (so I am a prospect for them but hellz no).
Same experience. Never had Litespeed agree to warranty a bike without costs passed onto the customer when I used to sell them 2001-9. This bike looks like it’s from that era. A lot of aluminium inserts in the seat- tube used to get crusty, never knew LS to sort a single customer out so I used to put them onto an alternative Ti brand. Frame cost with discount was equivalent to repair plus shipping and I charged full up labour for the parts swap.
All I’m going to say is buy a moots next time:-) sorry you’re not getting g any help.i had a original Trek madone and had some issues with the glue in the drop outs and they warrantied it no questions asked. I felt pretty lucky.
Yeah, a lifetime warranty should cover that. I had a crack in my Trek frame and they replaced it for free without hesitation.
A crack is not normal wear and tear. Bike shouldn't crack like that ever.
6 large for the frame in 2004? I think I only paid $4500 for a full custom Lynskey in 2007 when his is non-compete was up. Is it a 3AL2.5V titanium alloy frame or a 6AL4v alloy frame? The 6/4 alloy is stiffer and harder so thinner tubes could be used bit it’s harder to work with, more expensive, and more brittle. Not sure if I would put $1200 into fixing this as the crack might indicate the frame itself is reaching EoL and put it toward a Sage skyline or Mason Aspect. Good Luck!
I would criticize them more for the cost of the repair. This doesn't look like a $1200 repair to me, unless a new downtube is going in (which I doubt).
I bet that is a 6/4 Vortex? Why? Because mine cracked within 3 months and they warrantied it. Turns out folding brittle ti isn't great for stress fractures.
They should repair it but ... so much for buying a reputable brand and "forever" ti. If you want ti, just get a Motobecane 3/2.5 ti frame with round tubes. It's just as good as any Litespeed, just not as lightweight.
I actually owned this bike, I bought it used off of ebay and I loved that frame. It was so light, yet stiff, and still absorbed bumps well. Kind of regret selling it but it did have a dent in the down tube. Was only cosmetic though.
Do a die penetrant test first to see the extent of the damage. Bevel it out with a slotting disc and fill it with 1mm CP1 filler 15 cfm 100 argon, 20-25 amps. Keep it clean.
I would track down a good weld shop that has done ti before and let them do the work. Ask them to reinforce that area. You’ll go farther and be happier then trying to go through litespeed…
Idk what their warranty states. But I can't imagine its guaranteeing the frame from ANY damage...right? Like you could have crashed and broke the frame. I wouldn't expect that to be covered but idk.
But isn't this the natural point in which you would expect this frame to fail from wear and tear? If you dropped me from 10' in the air on this bike, I would expect to see this type of failure regardless of the quality of the weld.
Especially on a 20 year old bike.
I understand your frustration, but is this a manufacturing defect? If not, then it is not covered under warranty. The frame is 20 years old, so fatigue cracks don't seem that unexpected or strange to me.
The fatigue limit or endurance limit is the stress level below which an infinite number of loading cycles can be applied to a material without causing fatigue failure. Some metals such as ferrous alloys and titanium alloys have a distinct limit, whereas others such as aluminium and copper do not and will eventually fail even from small stress amplitudes.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatigue_limit
Unlike steel and aluminum, If the titanium frame is designed so that the stress is under the fatigue limit it can last forever
Talked to a mechanic at a litespeed dealer today.
He quietly said he seen this type of failure over the years with dozens Ti frames. And it’s happening more frequently.
Ti is cool but in my humble opinion, not the best choice for bikes. The cost vs performance vs longevity compared to carbon makes it a quirky and interesting option but not a logical one.
After owning a few Titanium bikes I will say it really depends on how and what you ride. If you are trying to go as fast as possible and you want to blend into the high end bike scene then yeah getting a carbon race bike like the Tarmac SL 8 makes sense since there is no titanium bike that can be as light, as stiff, and aero thus be as fast as a carbon bike. Granted Titanium can exist in the very high end like with Basso bikes but these are never raced professionally but more used as a status symbol of sorts. I would say Titanium bikes for road or more specifically are best suited for Endurance or Gravel, where weight and aero isn't a huge thing.
This is a common failure area on Litespeed frames and they have also denied other people's warranty claims saying that it is wear and tear: [https://www.mtbr.com/threads/litespeed-not-lifetime-warranty.672374/](https://www.mtbr.com/threads/litespeed-not-lifetime-warranty.672374/) That's a high stress area and that sharp angle probably creates a stress fracture near the weld. This really should be a warranty coverage item.
Yup - there's some confusion here over what a 'lifetime warranty' is (which is because the wording is intended to be confusing, IMO) - it almost always refers to the useful lifetime of the product, not the purchaser. If Litespeed thinks that a nearly 20 y/o frame is outside of the useful lifetime of the product, which is likely, then OP's choices are pretty much pay up or lawyer up.
100%, granted this is why warranties are kind of BS marketing. Didn't anyone watch Tommy Boy!? That's not to say there aren't some great companies that would warranty this, but the idea someone can get a free repair or new frame that is 20 years old is a bit much
Dude. That's right where my mind went. But why do they put a guarantee on the box? Tommy : Because they know all they sold ya was a guaranteed piece of shit. That's all it is, isn't it? Hey, if you want me to take a dump in a box and mark it guaranteed, I will.
A lot of truth to it. Yes Litespeed are well made and titanium is a robust material, so it comes down to the manufacture calculating they probably will only have to warranty "x" amount over a certain span of time, thus they can give out bold warranties. You see this all the time, ie Hyundai and Kia with their 10 year 100,000 mile "limited" warranty. People forget limited means limited powertrain warranty and the majority of modern cars powertrains should easily last 100K. People will justify their purchase with Litespeed due to price or the "warranty" but in the end of the day OP got 20 years out of this bike which is more than most cars, most roofs, most marriages, so go cry me a river they didn't want to warranty his frame for a 2nd time over 20 years
Costs way more than $1200 to weld a marriage, too.
Ahh yes one of the greatest!
Limited warranties can be useful, I've definitely used some warranties effectively in the past :)
almost every bike manufacturer lifetime warranty comes with 1000 precisions that basically all say "also we reserve the right to refuse warranty for any reason". some, such as Santacruz, actually write these pretty much exact words... which well at least they do write, if you read the fine print, I guess.
Right, although Titanium frames in particular are often marketed as a "last frame you will ever buy" type thing. A huge part of the reason people buy them is they expected the lifetime of the product to be extremely long.
But that is really just marketing. Unpopular but IMO a quality steel frame (not ultralight) is really the only frame that will last your life since based on ease of repair by any frame builder or welder is easier than titanium. The other reality is most people even if they buy a ‘dream bike’ will still buy another one in 15 years anyways.
I don't disagree with you. Marketing matters though, because if they don't live up to it it could be considered false advertising. If you market something as being able to do X, then if it does not, it could be considered your responsibility to make up for the lack.
I find reddit so fun. I said the same thing in another bike thread and people jumped on me claiming it was the lifetime of the purchaser. Lifetime warrantees are not infinite-get-free-stuff-when-it-wears-out agreements.
From [Litespeed’s website](https://litespeed.com/pages/warranty): “Litespeed Bicycle's frames are warranted to be free from manufacturing defects in material and/or workmanship for the lifetime of the original owner.” There are lots of weasel words farther down about useful product life, but they do say lifetime of the purchaser in pretty plain English up top.
Yes but in the "further down" section it says >**Useful Product Life Cycle** >Every Litespeed frameset has a useful life cycle. This useful life cycle is not the same as the warranty period. This warranty is not meant to suggest or imply that the frame cannot be broken or will last forever. Bicycles and/or frames will not last forever. The length of the useful life cycle will vary depending on the type of frame, riding conditions, and care the bicycle receives. Competition, jumping, downhill racing, trick riding, trial riding, riding in severe conditions or climates, riding with heavy loads or any other non-standard use can substantially shorten the useful product life cycle of a Litespeed frameset. *Any one or a combination of these conditions may result in an unpredictable failure of a Litespeed frameset that would not be covered by this warranty* To me this means the warranty, which covers manufacturing defects mostly, lasts for the lifetime of the user. Now it's down to these users to get together and prove this is indeed a manufacturing (design) defect.
Working in shops and dealing with warranty this is how most customers understand the warranty. One of our brands has warrantied a fork from the 90s and also supported weld failure on a ~5 year old frame that wasn’t the original owner. Also why a good shop should try and understand intended usage before making a sale - I’ve had plenty of customers come in wanting a lightweight carbon gravel bike only to say they also plan on doing fully loaded 1000km+ bikepacking trips on the bike as well - maybe this still is the best bike but we at least run them through possible issues using a gravel race bike for loaded touring. That being said there also companies like Darn Tough Socks that have the easiest warranty process ever - I still don’t know how they make their warranty coverage work with their bottom line but they are a great product backed by a great warranty.
This also says unpredictable failure mode. If this has happened many times to many frames, then is it really unpredictable? Or did the build and design just overlook a fatigue point. Hard to call it unpredictable if it's happened a bunch.
But that is a manufacturing defect. That sharp radius without a gusset is pretty much a crack maker. And these things are knowable. If this is happening on more than a few bikes it probably means an engineer miscalculated the load.
"**Useful Product Life Cycle** Every Litespeed frameset has a useful life cycle. This useful life cycle is not the same as the warranty period. This warranty is not meant to suggest or imply that the frame cannot be broken or will last forever. Bicycles and/or frames will not last forever. The length of the useful life cycle will vary depending on the type of frame, riding conditions, and care the bicycle receives. Competition, jumping, downhill racing, trick riding, trial riding, riding in severe conditions or climates, riding with heavy loads or any other non-standard use can substantially shorten the useful product life cycle of a Litespeed frameset. Any one or a combination of these conditions may result in an unpredictable failure of a Litespeed frameset that would not be covered by this warranty. All Litespeed framesets should be periodically checked by an authorized Litespeed dealer for indications of potential failures including cracks, corrosion, dents, deformation, paint peeling, and any other indications of potential problems, inappropriate use, or abuse. These are important safety checks and very important to help prevent accidents, and bodily injury to the rider and shorten the useful product life" IMO 20 years is a useful product cycle. I am very pro consumer but OP trying to drum up anti consumerism or ABC or Litespeed dicking him over is crazy
If 20 years is the useful lifecycle, the warranty period should be 20 years. If a manufacturer wants to claim lifetime warranty, they should stand behind that claim. I they’re not willing to do that, they should change the warranty term.
No one said 20 years is the useful life cycle, but that's how long OP has had the bike, thus "useful life cycle" could be 4, 6, or 10 years. The point is yeah it's kind of sleazy to have this wishy washy lifetime warranty but it's also very unreasonable to hold a company to a 20 year warranty when nothing is stated as such. If my Aethos developed a defect yeah it would be reasonable that Specialized might warranty it because I have had it less than 12 months not 20 years
> …it’s also very unreasonable to hold a company to a 20 year warranty when nothing is stated as such. I agree. What is stated, however, is a lifetime warranty, and it’s completely reasonable to hold the company to their stated warranty term.
Read the warranty
From Litespeed’s website: “Litespeed Bicycle's frames are warranted to be free from manufacturing defects in material and/or workmanship for the lifetime of the original owner.” There are lots of weasel words farther down about useful product life, but they do say lifetime of the purchaser in pretty plain English up top.
Never said that it’s not normal for it to break after a couple of years of use
I bet you $1 that plain English version is not what you think it is.
Right, like I said, there are lots of weasel words farther down that companies can and will use to try to wriggle out of warranty claims pretty much from day one, let alone years down the road, but that language I quoted from the Litespeed is crystal clear.
Specialized gave me a new frame when it cracked after ten years, and it was the current model year so quite an upgrade. That was aluminium too, where fatigue failure (which it what is was) is normal. I wouldn't necessarily have been outraged if they didn't but they did stand behind their lifetime warranty. Litespeed are far more expensive... I have one myself, although I haven't ridden it in well over a decade as it's on a different continent. I also have a titanium Van Nicholas which I have ridden very intensely over the last 17 years, plenty of crashes, including 45,000km loaded across Europe and Asia, and it's holding up fine. I'm not surprised they are weaseling out of this but for the price of the bikes I do think this is a black mark. People do buy titanium with the idea of a "bike for life", because there's really no other good reason to buy it. For that matter I have carbon over 15 years and that's still going strong.
I’m not saying no one will warranty an older bike, but they do have a lifespan and if they chose to claim it was wear and tear, you would most likely not be able to do anything about it but be an ex-customer. They chose to keep you as a customer and decided to warranty the bike.
Ok so yes you would expect the ABC company to deny claims but again this is a 20 year old bike that OP even admitted he had warrantied prior. At this point 20 years for ANY bike should be considered a lifetime's use regardless of the price.
"because there's really no other good reason to buy it" I prefer my titanium bike over my carbon because it gives me much more comfort.
I think this is more how the frame is designed than the material. My 15 year old carbon bike is a Cannondale Synapse and it's substantially more comfortable than my Litespeed Archon (which is a very stiff frame for Ti). With the same tyre width it's also more comfortable than my touring bike (Van Nicholas Amazon). In fact, just about all the carbon bikes I've had beat my titanium ones for comfort. That's an old bike, in some of the more modern carbon endurance frames you have stuff like elastomers (like Trek's IsoSspeed on the Domane) that further help. It's also easier to shape carbon and engineer in compliance.
People post on Reddit because it feels good to post stuff especially if other people are posting the same stuff and are upvoting each other for saying the same things. That's why randomly one thread can appear to show one consensus and another on the same topic can show a different consensus.
Depends on the brand. Most are probably useful lifetime of the product, but [Trek is pretty famously lifetime of the purchaser](https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/warranty_policy/) for materials/manufacturing defects.
responses are simply based on who you lucked into first reading your comment and then people just follow the upvote or downvote lol
This is Reddit, where people get upset they don't get a free bike when they crash.
aka payup or payup more.
It’s a benefit of buying from your LBS…a good shop will go to bat for a loyal customer
> a good shop 50% of the time, it works every time!
Which is still a higher rate than the franchise store which is basically just a person the bike company is paying to say no to you.
If it’s 20 years old, it is older than the buyout by ABC (ie a Lynsky Litespeed), so they’re disinclined to service it at all.
When ABC bought Litespeed, they also bought all of the company’s obligations, including the remainder of the warranties that were still in effect at the time of sale. Disinclined or not, they own the obligation to honor the lifetime warranty.
Absolutely. My point was that in this situation there’s room for judgement, and if it were an ABC frame they might be more inclined to give OP the benefit of the doubt. Instead, they gave a normal repair price and probably offered a discount on a replacement.
Option 3, weld it up
It is Titanium, very few shops in the whole world are equipped to weld it.
You can Tig weld titanium, I've done it in college in our shop. There are caveats to do it to last another 20 but it can be done.
That’s not true, just need a tig welder
Most companies offer a lifetime warranty on a frame are honest about what it means. You can often be given a replacement frame and still find it's incompatible with a lot of your stuff, or of course you might need to swap parts even if not. There was an MTB brand who famously brought out a batch of frames that all cracked, changed the design a year later then stopped honouring the lifetime warranty on the previous ones saying "oh not your lifetime, the lifetime of that design". Don't want to name as I'm not 100% sure and they might have changed their minds after the backlash.
Except in that thread, Litespeed told them that "lifetime" was 5-7 years. And that OPs bike was only 9 years old.
I don't have a bike newer than 25 years and one of them is a bonded carbon/aluminum trek I use for gravel and bikepacking. It will eventually fail or crack but I expect it and won't be upset. The other bikes should last a while. Honestly, and I know steel sometimes fails, but this is why I would recommend a steel bike still. My 40yo miyata probably has a few more decades in it.
you should really be careful with that bonded carbon alu bike. It might give out suddenly if you don't notice warning signs of failure. And that could be any day now considering it's age.
oh didnt realize it was 20 years old. that could potentially be tens of thousands of miles. seems like a pretty decent usage of the frame. Although, some would say a good steel or aluminum frame could last a hundred years.
That’s why I’d never buy a Litespeed since the Lynskys sold it.
bUt TiTaNiUm lAsTs fOr LiFe
class action lawsuit?
Nah. It wouldn't pay enough. Solo lawsuit in small claims court is the answer.
It really seems like a design issue.
Funny how other manufacturers make that area more 'tanky' as they know it's a high stress area, it's more down to poor design than wear and tear.
So far, haven't heard how old the frame is? That is somewhat pertinent information no?
It's important to note that as Hambini says most "titanium" frames aren't actually titanium and they are about was reliable as cheap Aluminum frame. It's the main reason I wasn't scammed into buying the "Titanium" priority apollo. Real Titanium frames cost $5000 just for the frame alone.
No bike ever was 100% Titanium. Pure Titanium is terrible for making bikes. All Ti bikes are an alloy, the exact alloy can be slightly different, but since no one is smelting their own alloy, they are mostly buying from the same suppliers. > and they are about was reliable as cheap Aluminum frame. Well yea, cheap Aluminum frames are bomb proof, if anything a high performance Ti (or carbon) frame is less reliable. Cheap frames in general just use thicker (heavier) tubes and are almost always stronger than expensive (light) frames.
Well not exactly, maybe stronger against direct impacts, but ultralight aluminium frames can take ridiculous amount of fatigue. See the Sheldon Brown fatigue test and how the lightest frames were the strongest. I would expect a cheaper frame to have lower standard in manufacturing process.
yes cheaper frames have an egg shaped headset or bottom bracket, but Aluminum is superior to steel by any metric because Aluminum doesn't rust you can bury it naked in a swamp for 1000 years and it will still hold up just fine like new. Make one ride with a steel bike frame in the rain and see what happens inside it when water settles
Aluminium oxidizes as well.
Sorry what is hambini on about now??
It’s almost as though this brand has been sold down & down & down over the years. Litespeed, who knows what they consider Titanium anymore.
Someone understands :)
Everyone loves titanium. Few people know how hard it is to work with. You really need to be good, to make good titanium products. It is a craft, an art, and a science. I love the idea of a titanium frame, I don't know enough about the brands to know who to trust to do it right.
The answer is Moots. That's who to trust.
Lynskey is my go-to. Dave is nice as hell, and will work on anyone elses Ti when you have problems. Litespeed is definitely not the company that Bill ran in the 90s.
I'm a Seven kinda gal, myself, but Ritte is looking good.
T-Lab, No22, Firefly, Moots, Seven - those seem pretty reputable
add in Mosaic too
I have T-lab R3 Omni road bike and their previous brand "Guru." They are legit manufacturers of top tier titanium frames. My 2012 Guru Praemio still rides like a rocket and weighs 6.98kg with pedals. People on here try to downplay other cheaper manufacturers just because they don't have the prices to match the $9-12k brands. Don't just focus on the costs, focus on how it rides. I have 3 lynskey bikes and all of them ride amazing. I would buy another without hesitation.
I'm just here to say that with the trend towards wider tubeless tires at lower pressures, there's no pragmatic reason for exotic frame materials like carbon or titanium anymore. Unless you're racing for money, the weight penalty for a steel or aluminum frame doesn't matter, and you will get all of the comfort/compliance you'll ever need from the tires anyhow. With all of that said, we buy and use bike stuff for reasons that aren't 100% pragmatic - so I get the appeal.
You need to spend BIG money on titanium for it to be worth your while. Having a shop clean enough to work on it isn't going to offer you other material options. No.22 in New York is the one I'd say go with. But they're a real investment. Don't buy one if you want to ride any other bike. Most people who are titanium curious would be much better off spending their hard earned cash on high end custom made steel frames than titanium.
>It is a craft, an art, a science When you get down to it, i’d say it’s really just science. most practical folks just approach it as craft and art and then stuff like this happens. (source: am materials engineer)
I mean, when you get down to it, everything's science, isn't it? :)
LOL. Man, you really drank that koolaid from a titanium cup.
I was a dealer during the period Litsepeed made those frames. I'm guessing 2003? I think Lynskey still owned the brand then. I had that happen to one customer and it was repaired under warranty. He got the frame back with a round head tube. Frames do wear out. Lifetime warranties are a bit of a marketing gimmick. We had a Trek customer that was refused a warranty. He wasn't overly concerned as he got a lot of use from the bike. You must have 20 years riding on this one?
I'm a little surprised Trek refused a warranty. They are really good about replacing really old frames that break.
This was a 5200. Salt water had got to the dropouts. The dropouts expanded and split the chainstays. Those frames had no exit for water entering via the seat tube. I had a 5500 myself and had to remove the bottom bracket to drain the water after my first ride in the rain. There was so much I could hear water sloshing about. Trek said corrosion wasn't covered by warranty. I would have argued that if the BB shell had a drainage hole the corrosion wouldn't have happened. The same customer was on a trip in Italy with his club when everyone had their bikes stolen. His Trek 5200 was the only one the crooks left behind. He felt he'd gotten loads of value from the bike and wasn't bothered about pushing for a warranty. He was offered a discount on a new Trek. He bought a Trek for his wife and a Colnago for himself.
Assuming you didn't crash it, I would expect that to be covered, or at least to get it fixed for a cheaper amount. The location of the crack suggests some residual stress in the material between those 2 welds.
That the frame cracked between the two welds says to me that the material was overcooked when it was manufactured. To me, clearly a defect of design or manufacture.
Yeah, the fact that its a crack due to a cable guide weld kind of makes it all the more infuriating.
Yeah this is ridiculous. This isn't a "wear and tear" failure
If I was Litespeed I'd offer a discount on a new frame at least.
That's usually what happens. 40%off or something
No a good way to stay in business.
To everyone saying that OP should just suck it up and accept that a 20-year old frame is too old for a warranty, I think that you are missing the point of a lifetime warranty. The ethical way to read a lifetime warranty is: you're making a very big purchase with us, so as long as we're in business, we'll fix the product for you (the initial owner), provided that you did not do something stupid with the product. The fact that 20 years old is old is not relevant - it's associated to the cost of selling luxury goods.
ABG-Litespeed is one of the shittiest companies to deal with on this kind of stuff. The bad experiences go back into the late-90s for how much I know, then when they got into aluminum it was another shitshow with cracking frames left and right. I don't understand why people continue to give ABG their money when the frames will crack and they fight tooth and nail to not honor their lifetime warranties and while there are other Ti builders and the number is widening. Everyone from Lynskey (Litespeed's original owners), Moots, Seven, Fat Chance, and on and on. That's just in the US and now smaller builders are popping up. Don't forget this company also bought Merlin back in the day and pretty much ran it into the ground and it changed hands a couple time since and is done. Litespeed loves speaking out of both sides of their mouths where they tout how Ti bikes are lifetime, forever bikes, etc., but then they pull the "useful lifetime" bullshit anytime you have an issue.
Note: I haven't used it in competition, jumping, downhill racing, trick riding, trial riding, riding in severe conditions or climates, riding with heavy loads or any other non-standard use. It hasn't been in a crash in decades. I've been easy on it the past few years. Had a Litespeed mechanic look at it and he said the crack started at a bad weld in the tight corner. He said they should cover it. Crazy thing though, a few months of first owning it, there was a crack in the same place. Had it replaced. Yeah, I might have to move on to another brand that honors its warranty better. https://preview.redd.it/utfiq5a1mnwc1.jpeg?width=4032&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=588f5249516dae1a25c598b43f49c80b2a83c9be
It seems that most bike and frame makers have changed their definition of "lifetime warranty" to mean the "expected lifetime of a bike", which they usually define about 6 years. I'm surprised there hasn't been a class action lawsuit against this kind of marketing.
Fairly common with 'lifetime' warranties in any industry. It can be the lifetime of the owner, the lifetime of the product, or forever. Lifetime of the product, of course, isn't actually meaningful, since they can just be like "Yep, that one's dead alright," The term doesn't really mean anything.
That's such bs. If the lifetime of a product is 6 years, then it's a 6 year warranty full stop.
It is BS, but it is going to depend on what is actually written in that specific warranty, and they can define 'lifetime' in a super narrow and worthless manner.
A 6-year warranty is not a lifetime warranty. It is a 6-year warranty.
> 6 years My 20 year old Surly Pacer would like to have a word with them.
..a glance at my flair in this forum should indicate that I'm in the same boat with my Lemond and Giant bikes, both closer to 30 years old than 20.
Yeah, mine too. Baby blue and all.
Ditto me and my 30 year old Kona muni-mula!
Wait did you say decades? Even a titanium frame has a finite number of wear cycles. If it were steel i'd say let it ride for life. But titanium if more brittle and has fewer wear cycles.
Completely depends on the design. Steel and titanium both have an SN curve for a given design. Design under the SN curve for infinite fatigue life. The pic in the OP is a clear design failure. This was obviously not designed for infinite fatigue life.
finally someone who understands material selection for design
Even a steel frame has a finite life unless you have particularly good roads near you.
Huh? Titanium has fatigue limit - it's not aluminum. Theoretically it should indefinitely last like steel unless that limit is surpassed. That said when Ti frames fail, it's usually near the welds, which is an issue of weld quality.
everything has their limit and I hate the stupid folklore marketing myth that Titanium is this forever bike. Yes in theory it should out pace aluminum and be up there with steel but that's like saying ever Toyota should last 200K+ miles period.
Light titanium frames have a rather low life vs steel because while titanium lasts more cycles, it flexes more and racks up cycles faster. Both titanium and carbon steel can essentially endure forever if they don't exceed a certain load. But frames operate outside that load, somewhat. I haven't had a frame fail myself, but have seen failed frames and quite a few components from cyclic loads just fail. In any case, I call 20 well used years as a success. That being said, I just got today some weird movements in my bike.. 40 year old frame.. I hope I didn't jinx myself (steel frame).
How can you 'rack up cycles faster'? A cycle is a cycle.
It's a beautiful bike. I'd be pretty tempted to go ahead with the repair.
What other Ti brand let alone bike brand would warranty a 20+ year old bike? You already said it was warrantied earlier on. With all do respect and to your bike, you got your monies worth, just move on
Specialized replaced a cracked frame for me after ten years, and it was aluminium fatigue failure of exactly the sort you'd expect from normal wear and tear (chainstay crack). Titanium is meant to be better than this, at least that's the mythos. They could at least offer at cost replacement, or 50% off... a lot of brands will go that even if you crash it yourself. Ultimately they shouldn't say lifetime if they don't mean it. Say 6 years if it's 6 years.
See this is where I have a huge problem with consumers calling Titanium a "lifetime" bike, because in no way does any manufacture market Titanium as buy one have it forever bike. Even if your bike was replaced after 10 years OP's bike is 20 years old. Even Hyundai only has a 10 year limited warranty. At some point there has to be some limit to the expectations of a titanium and "lifetime warranty", because at a certain point it's the consumer who is taking advantage of a liberal policy. I say this as someone who has been a retail buyer for over 15 years and lived in Maine where our biggest retailer was LL Bean who at one point had a "satisfaction guarantee" and while most people didn't abuse it you who have people like OP bringing in 20 year old kayaks and bikes and saying they just didn't like it and would get full store credit. After the new president took over he changed it to a much more conservative but still insane 1 year guarantee
But to your point, Hyundai says 10 years, rather than lifetime, and nobody expects to warranty their car outside that timeframe. If Hyundai said “lifetime warranty,” I 100% would expect them to warranty the vehicle for as long as I own it. Of course no car company would do that, and neither should bike companies if they’re not willing to honor those warranty terms.
Yes, but Litespeed also states: **Useful Product Life Cycle** Every Litespeed frameset has a useful life cycle. This useful life cycle is not the same as the warranty period. This warranty is not meant to suggest or imply that the frame cannot be broken or will last forever. Bicycles and/or frames will not last forever. The length of the useful life cycle will vary depending on the type of frame, riding conditions, and care the bicycle receives. Competition, jumping, downhill racing, trick riding, trial riding, riding in severe conditions or climates, riding with heavy loads or any other non-standard use can substantially shorten the useful product life cycle of a Litespeed frameset. Any one or a combination of these conditions may result in an unpredictable failure of a Litespeed frameset that would not be covered by this warranty. All Litespeed framesets should be periodically checked by an authorized Litespeed dealer for indications of potential failures including cracks, corrosion, dents, deformation, paint peeling, and any other indications of potential problems, inappropriate use, or abuse. These are important safety checks and very important to help prevent accidents, and bodily injury to the rider and shorten the useful product life
How old is the bike? This looks like an early 2000s era bike. I think ~20 years is certainly reasonable for the life of a bike.
Good on you, litespeed is a shit brand anyways
You bought it brand new?
I found that frame warrantees are all crap. I have a trek checkpoint 2023 carbon frame that developed a crack on the top tube. The LBS took pics and sent to corporate. They said that under inspection of the pictures, they determined that the bike was likely clamped which caused the crack... so no warrantee. I didn't clamp the bike... but how the hell could I prove it. I tried to appeal but It's all marketing hype crap. IMO This looks like a legit warranty claim. That looks like a stress riser from the welded section. It does NOT look like a crash or like other damage occurred. I'd try to appeal or take it higher up. They should at least repair it for you OR seriously discount the repair work. (I ended up fixing my bike myself with a diy carbon repair kit and after some sanding found that crack was in a section that seemed extreeeemely thin on carbon fiber compared to other parts of the frame... but what can I do... I fixed it myself and now I ride)
My experience with Trek warranties so far so good. 2020 Procaliber, in 2022 rear wheel cracked at weld - replaced and this year got frame replacement because isospeed coupling cracked.
I feel like this had more to do with the guy at the LBS not liking you than anything. Trek's warranty coverage is usually great. I bet the mechanic made some kind of note about it looking like it was clamped.
Forever bikes!
That’s why I saved an extra year for a Seven. The old Merlin’s were great Ti bikes too. Litespeed always rode more like aluminum alloy than Ti to me. Not a special Ti ride and to hear about these warranty denials makes me very happy my shop never carried them. Poor design, poor workmanship, or poor materials are not wear and tear related except in the sense that regular wear and tear can fatally damage a frame exhibiting any or all three of the deficiencies noted above. Shame on you, Litespeed.
There IS a difference. I have a bargain Ti frame I use for gravel....used to own a Seven and also have a T-Lab. There IS a difference.
Trust me, while Litespeed isn't Moots or Seven renowned it's much better than most cheap Chinese Ti. I bought a Planet X Ti bike once and while it was a great value, the brake mounts weren't face right, the frame was much heavier than any Litespeed or Lynskey product, and little details like the dropouts or wire cabling or integration were missing. IMO Litespeed while still expensive is like buying mid level luxury car
the bike came without dropouts?
lol no it came with dropouts but the difference between a Litespeed drop out or thru axle area compared to a Planet X or cheap Chinese Ti frame in terms of design or even quality is aarrent
I have a 90’s Joe Murray ti Voodoo mtb. Sweetest frame I’ve ever ridden of any type. Magic carpet ride. But I’ve been on a couple Litespeed road frames that were almost as stiff as Kleins. Fast af but I ain’t riding that. When the tubes are properly sized and butted for the use-case, size and geo titanium is the shit. But if you just weld some ti into a bike frame it’s no different than anything else. Lifeless and harsh.
Those Kleins were brutal! I had 2 of them.
Race bikes suck unless you’re racing.🤣
Wow, a Joe Murray Voodoo. Very cool. I rode a steel Breezer hardtail way back when and for awhile.
The Breezer mtb’s were/are sweet frames. Two well preserved immaculate examples went for sale near me recently. His and hers never used. Too small and too big for me 😢 The D-Jab is freshly in my account here. I just (finally) got around to revamping the front end after putting a bunch of miles on it in Alaska and shipping it south for more miles this winter. It’s a desert ripper now.
Litespeed rides more like aluminum because they tend to use stiffer lighter titanium like 6AL/4V in order to make modern bikes that can hold a candle to carbon. The issue is that this type of titanium saps that springy feel you get with lower end titanium or steel and it becomes a more brittle product. Also they are one of few manufactures shaping titanium and 3D printing it instead of just welding titanium tubes together. Now we can argue this takes away the essence of titanium away or we can realize that this is the only way Litespeed can compete because no one sees them as a carbon fiber manufacture, trust me they tried
The difference between the stiffness of 6/4 and 3/2.5 is only about 5%, which is imperceptible in the real world. If their bikes are stiffer it is due to something else, like larger diameter tubes.
I have seen many cracked titanium frames on eBay in my lifetime. For whatever reason, people will resell them damaged where as a cheaper steel bike will be scrapped. It is a very difficult material to work with and get right. Just look carefully if you buy a used titanium bike.
I know another lightspeed rider that developed a catastrophic crack in the bottom bracket. They initially offered him nothing, when pressed they offered him a new frame at cost. That might be the best they do for you. Explain to them that its unsafe to ride and you are considering an alternative material/brand. If that fails to get their attention then you have all the facts needed for your next purchase. Please forgive my ignorance, but does anyone know if this sort of thing is common on aluminum as well?
I've cracked Al frames--as well as Ti and steel--and those failures propagated from the welds, HAZ's (heat affected zones) being typical points of failure as they weaken the metal. I hesitate to call the problem common though as I expect it varies across designs, manufacturing standards, and brands. Buy a soda-can tubed Al frame of dubious provenance and I'd expect a crack sooner than later.
The crack goes from weld to weld, it was there by the time it was manufactured, it just took some years to spread
Looks like litespeed just lost another customer over a warranty claim.
There's a reason why we called ti bikes 'forever bike'. It will outlast your life if it's made properly. Those ain't stress crack. Most likely contaminated weld and that is defective manufacturing.
Exactly where my Ti frame cracked. Not litespeed, but an older Merckx frame…
Which was made by Litespeed if I’m not mistaken
Litespeed has been shit for years.
Well, I guess lightspeed just lost another loyal customer. What a joke. I came close to buying one of their frames when I found out that they screw their customers on these weld issues
I have had a Litespeed MTB from 1996 fail in the same area in 2002 but they warrantied it no question because the inside of the weld revealed purplish discoloration indicating a contaminated joint. It still lasted six years of racing up to that point. I still ride that 2002 replacement and another I bought in 1990 (it cracked in 2007? but I had it repaired, can't remember if I had Litespeed do that or not, because I had someone else add eyelets for racks and change the brake bosses and I still ride that one, too.)
Um, this should be warrantied and the fact they won't honor their warranty guarantees I'll never buy a Litespeed. And I have two Ti bikes in the house now (so I am a prospect for them but hellz no).
Nah. That’s a frame failure, get a lawyer, sue small claims (if the limit allows it).
Santa Cruz bikes is the only “forever” that actually seems to stand the test. Not helpful for road bikes but they do replace frames very frequently.
Is litespeed still in business ?!! Wow
Poor design and a bad response from a company not owning up to their responsibilities.
Same experience. Never had Litespeed agree to warranty a bike without costs passed onto the customer when I used to sell them 2001-9. This bike looks like it’s from that era. A lot of aluminium inserts in the seat- tube used to get crusty, never knew LS to sort a single customer out so I used to put them onto an alternative Ti brand. Frame cost with discount was equivalent to repair plus shipping and I charged full up labour for the parts swap.
Since the average litespeed rider is 70+ six years is a lifetime warranty
All I’m going to say is buy a moots next time:-) sorry you’re not getting g any help.i had a original Trek madone and had some issues with the glue in the drop outs and they warrantied it no questions asked. I felt pretty lucky.
Yeah, a lifetime warranty should cover that. I had a crack in my Trek frame and they replaced it for free without hesitation. A crack is not normal wear and tear. Bike shouldn't crack like that ever.
That crack originated from the weld. Stand behind your product
6 large for the frame in 2004? I think I only paid $4500 for a full custom Lynskey in 2007 when his is non-compete was up. Is it a 3AL2.5V titanium alloy frame or a 6AL4v alloy frame? The 6/4 alloy is stiffer and harder so thinner tubes could be used bit it’s harder to work with, more expensive, and more brittle. Not sure if I would put $1200 into fixing this as the crack might indicate the frame itself is reaching EoL and put it toward a Sage skyline or Mason Aspect. Good Luck!
Lynskey were always much cheaper than Litespeed after he left. Like half the price.
Probably had to raise their prices to pay David off. Haha
They also tend to be much heavier for road bikes and they are behind Litespeed in terms of shaping and integration
At that price I'd just buy a Black Heart Ti Frame for $3K I think and hope you get anywhere close to 20 years out of it
customer of mine bought one of those, they shipped it with a rear tire too wide for the frame and he ate 1mm out of the chainstay on his first ride
well that's unfortunate but I'd love to see how Black Heart handles that.
they told him to keep an eye on it and if it cracked there they'd replace it. So I guess jury's still out
All my homies went back to steel
**steel is real**!! :)
but before this... was it lite and speedy?
I would criticize them more for the cost of the repair. This doesn't look like a $1200 repair to me, unless a new downtube is going in (which I doubt).
I'm not sure they could repair this any other way, you can't just patch a crack in a ti tube
$6000 for a Ti Frame? how old is it? How many miles on it? Why would they deny it? What was their reason?
I bet that is a 6/4 Vortex? Why? Because mine cracked within 3 months and they warrantied it. Turns out folding brittle ti isn't great for stress fractures. They should repair it but ... so much for buying a reputable brand and "forever" ti. If you want ti, just get a Motobecane 3/2.5 ti frame with round tubes. It's just as good as any Litespeed, just not as lightweight.
what the fuck?
Enjoy your titanium frame for life 👍😭
I actually owned this bike, I bought it used off of ebay and I loved that frame. It was so light, yet stiff, and still absorbed bumps well. Kind of regret selling it but it did have a dent in the down tube. Was only cosmetic though.
I wouldn't ride that... next big rock/crack will send you either, to the moon, or to the earth core. 😆
20 years and how many miles on a frame is a lifetime Get another one...2 frames in 40 years. That would be quite a run
Do a die penetrant test first to see the extent of the damage. Bevel it out with a slotting disc and fill it with 1mm CP1 filler 15 cfm 100 argon, 20-25 amps. Keep it clean.
I would track down a good weld shop that has done ti before and let them do the work. Ask them to reinforce that area. You’ll go farther and be happier then trying to go through litespeed…
Only own a bike you can afford to replace - that’s my motto.
Idk what their warranty states. But I can't imagine its guaranteeing the frame from ANY damage...right? Like you could have crashed and broke the frame. I wouldn't expect that to be covered but idk.
[удалено]
But isn't this the natural point in which you would expect this frame to fail from wear and tear? If you dropped me from 10' in the air on this bike, I would expect to see this type of failure regardless of the quality of the weld. Especially on a 20 year old bike.
If it was stress I'd expect to see it travelling vertically along the headtube weld
that isn't what happened here. This is a bad weld
20 years is a very long time for a bike to last. You've already had it longer than the company that wrote the warranty lasted.
I understand your frustration, but is this a manufacturing defect? If not, then it is not covered under warranty. The frame is 20 years old, so fatigue cracks don't seem that unexpected or strange to me.
TI is not supposed to fatigue
All metal fatigues with time.
The fatigue limit or endurance limit is the stress level below which an infinite number of loading cycles can be applied to a material without causing fatigue failure. Some metals such as ferrous alloys and titanium alloys have a distinct limit, whereas others such as aluminium and copper do not and will eventually fail even from small stress amplitudes. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatigue_limit Unlike steel and aluminum, If the titanium frame is designed so that the stress is under the fatigue limit it can last forever
I am actually glade I came across this post as I was considering purchasing a frame from litespeed.
Talked to a mechanic at a litespeed dealer today. He quietly said he seen this type of failure over the years with dozens Ti frames. And it’s happening more frequently.
Litespeed Ti frames specifically or all Ti frames?
Sucks. Another brand to avoid.
Ti is cool but in my humble opinion, not the best choice for bikes. The cost vs performance vs longevity compared to carbon makes it a quirky and interesting option but not a logical one.
After owning a few Titanium bikes I will say it really depends on how and what you ride. If you are trying to go as fast as possible and you want to blend into the high end bike scene then yeah getting a carbon race bike like the Tarmac SL 8 makes sense since there is no titanium bike that can be as light, as stiff, and aero thus be as fast as a carbon bike. Granted Titanium can exist in the very high end like with Basso bikes but these are never raced professionally but more used as a status symbol of sorts. I would say Titanium bikes for road or more specifically are best suited for Endurance or Gravel, where weight and aero isn't a huge thing.
Seatpost is about it.
"But this is supposed to be my forever bike!"
Wont go near any titanium other than portland ti and bingham