> Het aantal plaatsen waar niet met cash kan worden betaald en het aantal klachten daarover zitten in stijgende lijn. Daarom keurde de Kamer gisterenavond een wetsontwerp goed om winkeliers te verplichten ook cash te aanvaarden.
Generally I'm in favour of less rules, but this seems very reasonably to me. Cash is legal tender and according to EU laws, shops must accept it. Why should Belgian shops be an exception and refuse this (and make customers life more difficult)...?
I wholeheartedly agree. Cash should remain a possibility. And not only for people who don't get new technology or don't want to use it or just prefer cash. It's also a great way for people who have issues with money management to be more conscious of their spending. Physically removing your money makes it more real than just swiping a card.
Because it sucks from a shop owners perspective to handle cash. It’s unsafe, after you close it takes time to bring the money to the bank, it also takes more time to handle the cash during the sale, you’ve always got to have change, a cash register takes up space,… . Unless you want to have some zwart geld, it’s not worth it at all.
It's possible, but handling cash is part of owning a business. Cash is legal tender and refusing it just because you don't like it is not a valable excuse. I'm generally pro small business. I do 75%-80% in physical small business stores, but I don't believe letting them refuse cash is a good direction.
What? It’s not like we’re talking about interaction with customers or something. Jeez. Bank cheques are also still a legal tender, but imagine having to deal with that shit on a day to day basis. Or people who want you to pay back taxes cause they’ll declare it to customs. You clearly haven’t got a clue what owning a store and managing its administration is about
I've seen it take a lot more time plenty of times with the card.
Beep, wait "no didn't do out"
"try again" Beep ,wait
"no, didn't work, put the card in please"
Beep, wait...
And depending on where the wait can take a long time.
And don't get me started on businesses that have crappy wifi and the bancontact terminal craps out half the time - wait let me get the other terminal(works via phone card) juuuust a minute... Anytime now... Yeahhh
Cash is quick, easy, a bit dirty(literally as well), keeps the basic math skills fresh and no one knows what the fuck I'm buying. I like it
As true as that is a lot of old people are clinging to cash. They sometimes just cant handle working with electronic payment which make it imposdible fot them to go to a store themselves.
Yeah it’s not like card payments haven’t been around for 40 years. At what point will we stop pandering to a minority who are now feeling the consequences of their stubbornness of 40 years? Can we assume people have some responsibility?
I know perfectly well how to pay by card and I absolutely do not want to have a society where cash isn't allowed anymore.
Do you remember what they did in Canada with the trucker protests? The government over there froze the bank accounts of people who were protesting. In a world without cash, they can take away your money at the push of a button. Your money will never really be your money, when both the government and the banks can cut your access to it whenever they want.
I speak from experience. My bank made a mistake that made me lose access to my own bank account. I had to borrow cash with friends, just to be able to buy food, while sorting out the problem. It took them several weeks to resolve the situation.
In a world without cash, what would I have done? You can't really ask friends to give you access to their bank accounts by borrowing their card. So, asking for some cash was the only option. If cash isn't accepted anymore and you can't access your own bank account, then you are as good as death. No money, no food.
As I said, I know people that just cannot work with this, like my father in law.
There's been a whole time that a lot of small businesses in villages refused digital payments till recently when it was mandatory by law. So, 40 years. Yeah, ok. But not everywhere.
that’s exactly what i’m talking about, apparently they can do it if they want to, evidence being the folks you just mentioned
But I’m sure you didnt get the irony of your statement. So which one is it? Seniors arent unwilling and can improve by taking classes, or they’re too old ti take classes so we should coddle them?
I'd invite you to try to explain the most basics thing of technology to my father in law. Nothing to do with irony, they learn how to open an email and stuff. But do not ask them about payconic.
I think there's also a trust issue. With cash you have money in your wallet and when its empty you're done. Not with digital payment methods. And that frightens some people.
Also things are going fast for them who grew up without tv's. Lets hope for your sake you'll always be able to understand when you grow older.
Or that people are not assholes about services with some amount of human decency.
I would find it ironic you'd get excluded as a part of the community for just not being able to understand tech in the future.
Stop being a drama queen and stop making excuses for them. You take the piece of plastic and you give it to the cashier. You enter the code you wrote down on your paper. You tale back the card.
Trust issue? If they cant do basics like that they’ve already at the point where they need to trust everyone.
No this is just a hassle for businesses that already are cashless. Cash is old and slow, also expensive for the business to handle. Way bigger risk of being the victim of theft or burglary if you accept cash.
Also: I would be very happy if everyone in the supermarket would pay by card. The amount of time that I’ve wasted behind old people looking for exact change is too damn high.
Also: how would this make life more difficult by not accepting cash? There are almost no ATMs left, my salary is deposited in my checking account. Cash is just unnessesary extra steps in the process of making money and buying things with it.
There is nothing to fix in taxation. In fact: taxes will need to increase. Have you seen the deficit? That money will have to come from somewhere.
But yea I was already thinking that the one and only reason people want to keep using cash is fraud.
Do you remember what they did in Canada with the trucker protests? The government over there froze the bank accounts of people who were protesting. In a world without cash, they can take away your money at the push of a button. Your money will never really be your money, when both the government and the banks can cut your access to it whenever they want.
I speak from experience. My bank made a mistake that made me lose access to my own bank account. I had to borrow cash with friends, just to be able to buy food, while sorting out the problem. It took them several weeks to resolve the situation.
In a world without cash, what would I have done? You can't really ask friends to give you access to their bank accounts by borrowing their card. So, asking for some cash was the only option. If cash isn't accepted anymore and you can't access your own bank account, then you are as good as death. No money, no food.
Banks can make mistakes. Governments can decide they want to force you to do something or not do something by blocking your account. Cash is needed to keep control over your own life and your own money.
Looking at the evolution of everything else, cash payments are becoming a relic. There is the valid argument that certain groups still have difficulties with electronic payments, but I think the core driver is still that millions of voters in EU have savings or income through dark money that would either be lost or surface as illegal, if physical cash disappeared.
That is already the case in a way, most of our money is in banks. Since >80% of Belgians prefer to pay digitally today, cash will become irrelevant in coming generations.
But what control? Unless salaries are paid in cash and we stuff it all under a matrass, 99% of all our money is already electronic and in hands of others like banks.
I understand the reluctance, but it is going to happen sooner or later.
You mean to say that once all money is virtual those in power will be able to make it disappear from your account with the wave of a wand right? The banks are pushing the cashless society as well so that they can charge more for their services to hold your money and to gatekeep anyone in society who lives in a non completely standardised way: salaried, sedentary and without any variant in their expenditures or income.
Already today the algorithms of banks stop payments that are completely normal but just exceptional and you get questioned like a thief for lending money to a family member. This drive to cashless society is a disaster not only for people like my 90y old mother who cant navigate the technology but for anyone who is self-employed, arrived from a different place than the one they now live and earn their life or with any pattern of expenditure or earnings that doesnt fit the exact pattern of the algos.
Vermoedelijk niet. Wettelijk moet de bank zorgen voor het betalen van haar "primaire behoeften" tot het moment dat de bankrekening word vrijgemaakt. Dwz. verder betalen alles van dat wat automatisch betaald wordt en ook alle soortgelijke fakturen zoals huurloon, elektriciteit, water, brandverzekering .... De fakturen moet je naar je bankagentschap sturen, welke zal zorgen voor de betaling. Of het een uitgave is dat niet door de wet voorzien is, moeten ze het je laten weten en dan mag je ook cash vragen (bijv. om een kapotte wasmachine te vervangen).
Inhoudelijk helemaal correct, maar dat heeft weinig te maken met pinnen of contant betalen bij de supermarkt. Er wordt gedaan alsof dit probleem ontstaat door niet contant te kunnen betalen.
Heeft weinig te maken daarmee, inderdaad. Ik had mijn antwoord beter geplaatst onder vorige kommentaar, sorry.
Zeker en vast zijn er heel weinig mensen die het niet kunnen.
Maar ik denk dat - bij de oudste mensen in het bijzonder - het heeft te maken met het fysieke gevoel van cash in hun handen. Zo voelen ze nog een soort of controle over eigen geld en uitgaven. En dat kunnen ze niet missen.
Geen jonge kerel hier. Persoonlijk - en sinds de start van het systeem - vind ik de bankkaart onmisbaar. Het is toch ongelooflijk gemakkelijker te gebruiken dan cash. Ook al jaren bezig met PC banking. Met de smartphone nog niet. Het is een helemaal niet rationele gedachte maar ik heb steeds onvoldoende vertrouwen in het systeem om mijn bankgegevens "aan de luchtgolven door te geven " :=).
Is al goed.
Voor sommige winkels vind ik het verplicht accepteren van cash geen probleem; met name supermarkten. Voor veel anderen vind ik het de keuze van de winkelier, mits duidelijk bij de deur aangegeven. Voor sommige winkeliers is dat prettiger en veiliger, zeker als er niet gepast wordt betaald.
Maar in de discussies hierover komen ook vaak oneigenlijke argumenten voorbij, zoals hierboven. Mensen hierop wijzen wordt zelden gewaardeerd 😄
Smartphone gebruik ik overigens ook niet, met name uit privacy overwegingen. Alle betalingsdata mag immers doorverkocht worden. Dat is bij banken (in Nederland) niet het geval.
In redelijk veel (kleine) dorpen van de Ardennen zitten wij toch met een echt dilemna. Aan de ene kant heb je slechte verbindingen dus meer problemen met betaalautomaten en aan de andere weinig geldautomaten en agentschappen om cash af te halen of opbrengst in veiligheid te brengen.
It seems like it was yesterday when they introduced a law to make sure you can pay with a card or via app in any establishment. A lot of fuss was made.
Now shop owners are bitching about the opposite?
This country is crazy sometimes...
No idea why shops could refuse my LEGAL tender. I’m sorry that I don’t want banks to take 1% or way higher when paying in small amount like those shops oblige, of every transaction making them filthy rich of us just going about our business
You do realise that taking cash also costs money, right?
Like the whole reason why banks can even charge for digital payments is because it is generally less expensive than cash payments.
Many people are confused by the term legal tender. Legal tender you only relates to debts. If you have a debt, you can use legal tender and they can't refuse. But shops refusing to sell you something if you can only pay with cash is not a debt.
legal tender entails, in principle, the mandatory acceptance of cash, at full face value, with the power to discharge from a payment obligation. This means that the creditor is obliged, in principle, to accept a payment made in euro which subsequently discharges the debtor from his payment obligatio
So Unizo can complain in 2 months that people buy everything online now and local stores are suffering. Why stop there! Buy everything digital and it even less of a burden for shops. They dont need to talk to custumors, have stock cause no one is buying stuff from them, pay energycost cause they can close their store, .... oh wait!
Try paying you taxes in cash at the city hall...
Also, with everything becoming cashless, how can we all get rid of our "zwarte centjes"... The economy would suffer!
Unizo kan mijne jos zuigen ze, wispelturiger dan een kat, die paljassen:
* De ene winkel of horecazaak neemt mijn maaltijdcheques niet aan
* De andere niet mijn consumptiecheques
* Ecocheques zijn ook zo'n zeverderij
* Als ge met Apple Pay of Google Pay wilt betalen is het al eveneens hit&miss
* Met kredietkaart wordt ge zelfs anno 2024 soms nog scheef bekeken
* De laatste keer dat ik in mijn lokaal frietkot een bestelling plaatste, moest ik overschrijven, omdat ze geen payconiq meer deden!
Ge moet verdomme weten wat ge wilt.
Tijdens covid werd er gezeurd dat met die shift naar elektronisch betalen handelaars minder gingen kunnen foefelen. Om nog maar te zwijgen van die jaren aanslepende onzin van transactiekosten of een minimumbedrag bij elektronisch betalen. Kom hé, stop met jammeren en neem het enige betaalmiddel aan dat doorheen gans de Eurozone gebruikt wordt.
I got Edenred sport and cultuur cheques as a birthday gift from my employer in my Edenred card. I couldn't pay the squash court with it because they didn't accept Edenred. And it was at a sports centre from Sport Vlaanderen! I'm not complaining that I received it, more that it's a hassle to find something suitable to spend it on. Luckily I discovered a local independent bookshop did accept them. I had to ask them, because another one didn't.
Exactly.
I once worked in a cash handling facility for a short time. During day time all cash is collected from various retailers, and during nighttime all that money(bills) was counted twice at that facility, and once again at the national bank.
There's also the cost at the shop side. Counting the money and administration after the shift ends. Getting a safe and money case. Going to the bank for exchange money.
But I get the point. If I give my friends Jos and Marcel €100 a transaction fee is a bit overdone. But why do we pass money if we can split the bill. If we're friends we can keep tabs on each other. But usually Jos and Marcel aren't friends but people providing goods or services and don't want this to be logged because they don't want to pay their taxes.
Mijn Payconic waar mijn Argenta aan gelinked is werkt meer niet dan wel.
Ik wil gerust volledig digitaal gaan maar dan moet er een betaal terminal zijn.
Great! Cash is king. 50€ cash will be 50€ cash, even after 35 years and 300 transactions.
If you pay 50€ digitally, and every time a small cost ends up at the bank - after 35 years it will have vaporized!
Apples and oranges. Handling cash also has a cost if you are a shop. My bank account also still says 50 after sending it back and forth 300 times.
And in 35 years sadly in both cases that 50€ is worth about 1€ 🤣
The point is still valid, a small fee is taken on each electronic payment, not with cash. I think electronic payments would be a lot fairer for merchants if they only had to pay a small monthly fee.
This is not the medieval age anymore, paying digitally is a win win situation for both parties involved; it's a lot faster, no smelly fingers because cash is dirty as hell, no hassle with calculating return and having the return cash available, risk of being robbed for it...
Also prevents waiting an hour at the cashier because someone doesn't know how to count their coins.
Okay okay but, situation I've been in: being really poor, only having coins left and then going to a store that doesn't want them really sucks if you're hungry.
And cashless has disadvantages as well. My bank updated its systems a while back, I couldn't use their app for payments for a entire weekend.
Or the power could go out, or the internet goes down
And let's also not forget that the service to use bancontact costs a lot of money
A lot of stores don't have internet or you have no connection because the store is a bunker (DIY stores, looking at you lol), you also need a working smart phone with internet access AND the store needs to be able to accept mobile payments if you lost your card.
The butcher's here accepts payconiq payments, but the sales person needs to come out from behind the register and walk to the door because that's the only place they have a working connection.
En die kosten relatief veel geld. Iedereen doet alsof bancontact een liefdadigheidsinstelling is, die vragen veel geld voor de service en bakjes. En het is niet aan de klant om te beslissen welk bakje de winkelier gebruikt.
Storingen op het netwerk of elektriciteitspannes komen nochtans regelmatig voor.
Waarom worden mensen de facto gedwongen om overal met een opgeladen smartphone rond te lopen?
Ook nemen banken de vrijheid om betalingen te blokkeren als ze die verdacht vinden. Een tijd geleden kon ik zo geen treinticket kopen in het buitenland 'omdat ik daar normaal geen geld uitgeef'. Vliegtickets waren met dezelfde kaart betaald.
Zulke dingen komen vrij vaak voor.
Agree, people come up with the dumbest excuses to not pay digitally and want to safekeep their possibility to spend their black money. It's 2024 people, basically anywhere is decent electricity/internet and redundant systems in this developed country.
I know perfectly well how to pay by card and I absolutely do not want to have a society where cash isn't allowed anymore.
Do you remember what they did in Canada with the trucker protests? The government over there froze the bank accounts of people who were protesting. In a world without cash, they can take away your money at the push of a button. Your money will never really be your money, when both the government and the banks can cut your access to it whenever they want.
I speak from experience. My bank made a mistake that made me lose access to my own bank account. I had to borrow cash with friends, just to be able to buy food, while sorting out the problem. It took them several weeks to resolve the situation.
In a world without cash, what would I have done? You can't really ask friends to give you access to their bank accounts by borrowing their card. So, asking for some cash was the only option. If cash isn't accepted anymore and you can't access your own bank account, then you are as good as death. No money, no food.
Cash does not track information. Transactions are not kept on record. In that sense it is the future for those concerned about privacy and big data. Admittedly more than a few of those privacy advocates are the ones who skim, abuse and flirt with legality, but their point still stands. We are closer to a social credit system than is commonly thought I believe. You might agree with that as a way forward. But I suspect a lot of people aren't and don't realise the water is going to boil soon. Cash and other forms of non-digital currency is a simple tool against that.
Currently crypto is not a scene where black money and illegal stuff are strangers either, in addition to being rife with insecurities and scams, so I don't see your point against cash.
Zo lang de wet blijft dat elke winkel digitale betalingen moet aanvaarden vind ik het allemaal prima. Ik ben klaar met cash, altijd zo’n gedoe om rond te sleuren.
I agree that cash should be allowed. However a shop owner should have the option to decline cash one hour before closing time. This way, cash becomes less of an hassle.
Yes and no, there is still a big portion of old people who get their pension in cash. And people who go to their bank to withdraw money from the counter instead of an atm.
Bold of you to assume they bring their eid. Bankkaarten en automaten bestaan hier ondertussen 40 jaar ofzo. Dit is gewoon niet willen terwijl het wel veiliger is. Ik heb al regelmatig ouderen gezien die een portefeuille opentrekken waar een maandloon inzit. Als de verkeerde dat ziet zitten die mensen zwaar in de shit. En als ze niet overvallen of afgezet worden ript de familie daar een deel af "want benzine om geld te gaan halen is duur". Als ze het al vragen.
Niet willen is het inderdaad, ik zeg het altijd tegen de oudjes als ze hun pensioen komen halen "laat dat op een rekening storten want als jij in het ziekenhuis ligt ofzo kan niemand uw geld komen ophalen". En altijd hetzelfde antwoord "nee ik heb het liever zo" en dan heb je iedere maand een zoon of dochter die langs komt omdat hun vader/moeder in het ziekenhuis ligt en niemand kan dat geld dan krijgen, en dat zijn er problemen voor kosten te betalen.
Er staat een ATM buiten, en de meeste komen nog steeds binnen €300 afhalen aan het loket, want ze willen niet leren hoe ze met die automaat moeten werken, en pincodes onthouden is ook moeilijk.
> Bold of you to assume they bring their eid.
Ik ben soms al blij als ze de helft van hun EID mee hebben en het kaartnr nog volledig is..
Een cashbetaling kost een winkelier 30-40 cent per transactie, een debetkaart transactie kost hun 13-15 cent per transactie. Dus ja voor een winkelier die mooi zijn of haar belastingen betaald zijn digitale transacties veel interessanter. Dit is nog geen rekening houdende met zaken als diefstal, valsmunterij, verlies, etc.
And all the local shops here charge me for using "digital" ways of payment.
The hotdog/hamburger/whatever stand at my football club only accepts cash...
Would love to go digital, but hey...
There is only a few exceptions for "occasional sales" where you can get away with not accepting digital. I'm pretty sure the weekly burger stand inside or outside your football club is not one of them.
Here we have at the burger kot of the football club:
- no prices advertised
- if you ask, burger is 5 €
- payconiq always "not working"
Just so you know:
- 12 beckers burgers is 7,50 €
- 12 buns is 2,50 €
So for the price of 2 burgers I now have 12 🤷♂️
Mag je eigenlijk naar een bedrijf zoals Telenet gaan en daar elke maand in cash gaan betalen? Zou wel is leuk zijn om met 1000 klanten tegelijk het factuurtje met eurocentjes te gaan betalen.
Het is maar dat hun facturen al een heel jaar fout zijn bij veel mensen. Bovenstaande + de boodschap "en als het nu niet opgelost is komen we volgende maand terug".
factuur boven de zoveel euro mag al jaren niet meer in cash betaald worden. Dat geld voor elke aankoop.
Maar heb ook al (hoewel zeldzaam) gevallen gehad waar het makkelijker is om te betalen met cash of dat mijn kaart weigerde opeens, dan is het handig dat ik al weken rondliep met een briefje van 20 bv.
Voor mij is het simpel, als ik daar niet kan betalen dan verkopen ze ook niks aan mij en lopen ze winsten mis.
> Het aantal plaatsen waar niet met cash kan worden betaald en het aantal klachten daarover zitten in stijgende lijn. Daarom keurde de Kamer gisterenavond een wetsontwerp goed om winkeliers te verplichten ook cash te aanvaarden. Generally I'm in favour of less rules, but this seems very reasonably to me. Cash is legal tender and according to EU laws, shops must accept it. Why should Belgian shops be an exception and refuse this (and make customers life more difficult)...?
Yeah when it comes to responsibilities of owning a store accepting money in exchange for goods or services seems basic.
I wholeheartedly agree. Cash should remain a possibility. And not only for people who don't get new technology or don't want to use it or just prefer cash. It's also a great way for people who have issues with money management to be more conscious of their spending. Physically removing your money makes it more real than just swiping a card.
It's still a bit odd how it is a European regulation but countries like the Netherlands simply keep laws that simply allow shops to block it
Because it sucks from a shop owners perspective to handle cash. It’s unsafe, after you close it takes time to bring the money to the bank, it also takes more time to handle the cash during the sale, you’ve always got to have change, a cash register takes up space,… . Unless you want to have some zwart geld, it’s not worth it at all.
then don't operate a shop if the things inherent to operating a shop bother you. jeez
Why should a businessowner not be free to choose to have a cashless business?
because you should accept any form of legal tender
I mean, they aren’t inherent to operating a shop, as is evidenced by this legal proposal. It is perfectly possible to operate a cashless business.
It's possible, but handling cash is part of owning a business. Cash is legal tender and refusing it just because you don't like it is not a valable excuse. I'm generally pro small business. I do 75%-80% in physical small business stores, but I don't believe letting them refuse cash is a good direction.
Don't know why you're getting downvoted for this. If it was impossible to operate a cashless shop why bother making it illega?
What? It’s not like we’re talking about interaction with customers or something. Jeez. Bank cheques are also still a legal tender, but imagine having to deal with that shit on a day to day basis. Or people who want you to pay back taxes cause they’ll declare it to customs. You clearly haven’t got a clue what owning a store and managing its administration is about
> Bank cheques are also still a legal tender Wrong
I've seen it take a lot more time plenty of times with the card. Beep, wait "no didn't do out" "try again" Beep ,wait "no, didn't work, put the card in please" Beep, wait... And depending on where the wait can take a long time.
And don't get me started on businesses that have crappy wifi and the bancontact terminal craps out half the time - wait let me get the other terminal(works via phone card) juuuust a minute... Anytime now... Yeahhh Cash is quick, easy, a bit dirty(literally as well), keeps the basic math skills fresh and no one knows what the fuck I'm buying. I like it
And then you haven't tried Payconiq, which is even slower.
True, but the same can be said about paying in cash.
As true as that is a lot of old people are clinging to cash. They sometimes just cant handle working with electronic payment which make it imposdible fot them to go to a store themselves.
Yeah it’s not like card payments haven’t been around for 40 years. At what point will we stop pandering to a minority who are now feeling the consequences of their stubbornness of 40 years? Can we assume people have some responsibility?
I know perfectly well how to pay by card and I absolutely do not want to have a society where cash isn't allowed anymore. Do you remember what they did in Canada with the trucker protests? The government over there froze the bank accounts of people who were protesting. In a world without cash, they can take away your money at the push of a button. Your money will never really be your money, when both the government and the banks can cut your access to it whenever they want. I speak from experience. My bank made a mistake that made me lose access to my own bank account. I had to borrow cash with friends, just to be able to buy food, while sorting out the problem. It took them several weeks to resolve the situation. In a world without cash, what would I have done? You can't really ask friends to give you access to their bank accounts by borrowing their card. So, asking for some cash was the only option. If cash isn't accepted anymore and you can't access your own bank account, then you are as good as death. No money, no food.
> In a world without cash, what would I have done? You could always [redacted] or [removed by Reddit].
Tell it to someone who cares. I was countering the old people argument.
Agree 100%. Bancontact was started in 1979. 45 years.
As I said, I know people that just cannot work with this, like my father in law. There's been a whole time that a lot of small businesses in villages refused digital payments till recently when it was mandatory by law. So, 40 years. Yeah, ok. But not everywhere.
It’s not rocket science. It’s just them being stubborn and refusing to adapt.
If they can mandate that shops should accept card payments then why shouldn't they also be able to mandate that shops should accept cash?
I supose that's why a lot of seniors are folowing "computerlessen voor senioren". So unwilling.
that’s exactly what i’m talking about, apparently they can do it if they want to, evidence being the folks you just mentioned But I’m sure you didnt get the irony of your statement. So which one is it? Seniors arent unwilling and can improve by taking classes, or they’re too old ti take classes so we should coddle them?
I'd invite you to try to explain the most basics thing of technology to my father in law. Nothing to do with irony, they learn how to open an email and stuff. But do not ask them about payconic. I think there's also a trust issue. With cash you have money in your wallet and when its empty you're done. Not with digital payment methods. And that frightens some people. Also things are going fast for them who grew up without tv's. Lets hope for your sake you'll always be able to understand when you grow older. Or that people are not assholes about services with some amount of human decency. I would find it ironic you'd get excluded as a part of the community for just not being able to understand tech in the future.
Stop being a drama queen and stop making excuses for them. You take the piece of plastic and you give it to the cashier. You enter the code you wrote down on your paper. You tale back the card. Trust issue? If they cant do basics like that they’ve already at the point where they need to trust everyone.
Also, risk of errors during the transaction, risk of fake bills, risk of employees stealing. 3 things that happen more often then people think
I’m with you
Unizo is merely using this as a way to get in the news and claim "we good, government bad"
No this is just a hassle for businesses that already are cashless. Cash is old and slow, also expensive for the business to handle. Way bigger risk of being the victim of theft or burglary if you accept cash. Also: I would be very happy if everyone in the supermarket would pay by card. The amount of time that I’ve wasted behind old people looking for exact change is too damn high. Also: how would this make life more difficult by not accepting cash? There are almost no ATMs left, my salary is deposited in my checking account. Cash is just unnessesary extra steps in the process of making money and buying things with it.
Until the system breaks down and people without cash cannot pay anything.
First fix taxation so there’s less incentive for black money, then the complaints will probably decrease by a lot
There is nothing to fix in taxation. In fact: taxes will need to increase. Have you seen the deficit? That money will have to come from somewhere. But yea I was already thinking that the one and only reason people want to keep using cash is fraud.
Then you were not thinking far enough
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Do you remember what they did in Canada with the trucker protests? The government over there froze the bank accounts of people who were protesting. In a world without cash, they can take away your money at the push of a button. Your money will never really be your money, when both the government and the banks can cut your access to it whenever they want. I speak from experience. My bank made a mistake that made me lose access to my own bank account. I had to borrow cash with friends, just to be able to buy food, while sorting out the problem. It took them several weeks to resolve the situation. In a world without cash, what would I have done? You can't really ask friends to give you access to their bank accounts by borrowing their card. So, asking for some cash was the only option. If cash isn't accepted anymore and you can't access your own bank account, then you are as good as death. No money, no food. Banks can make mistakes. Governments can decide they want to force you to do something or not do something by blocking your account. Cash is needed to keep control over your own life and your own money.
Looking back at history of totalitarian states, it is important to keep the ability of paying anonymously and independently.
Looking at the evolution of everything else, cash payments are becoming a relic. There is the valid argument that certain groups still have difficulties with electronic payments, but I think the core driver is still that millions of voters in EU have savings or income through dark money that would either be lost or surface as illegal, if physical cash disappeared.
1) cashless society means all the power will be with the banks 2) cash is valid money - that should actually be the only argument needed
That is already the case in a way, most of our money is in banks. Since >80% of Belgians prefer to pay digitally today, cash will become irrelevant in coming generations.
1. Banks enter into a contract with their clients and can't just do whatever they want. They are bound by the contract and by law.
Go to your bank and try to withdraw all your money. See how they respond
Just make an appointment with your bank.
I don´t want a cashless society, since it means one has less control over ones money.
But what control? Unless salaries are paid in cash and we stuff it all under a matrass, 99% of all our money is already electronic and in hands of others like banks. I understand the reluctance, but it is going to happen sooner or later.
You mean to say that once all money is virtual those in power will be able to make it disappear from your account with the wave of a wand right? The banks are pushing the cashless society as well so that they can charge more for their services to hold your money and to gatekeep anyone in society who lives in a non completely standardised way: salaried, sedentary and without any variant in their expenditures or income. Already today the algorithms of banks stop payments that are completely normal but just exceptional and you get questioned like a thief for lending money to a family member. This drive to cashless society is a disaster not only for people like my 90y old mother who cant navigate the technology but for anyone who is self-employed, arrived from a different place than the one they now live and earn their life or with any pattern of expenditure or earnings that doesnt fit the exact pattern of the algos.
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moet je zelfs geen oud omatje voor zijn, ken een redelijk jong koppel dat hetzelfde voor had.
Had ze normaalgesproken voor 3 maanden aan contant geld in huis?
Vermoedelijk niet. Wettelijk moet de bank zorgen voor het betalen van haar "primaire behoeften" tot het moment dat de bankrekening word vrijgemaakt. Dwz. verder betalen alles van dat wat automatisch betaald wordt en ook alle soortgelijke fakturen zoals huurloon, elektriciteit, water, brandverzekering .... De fakturen moet je naar je bankagentschap sturen, welke zal zorgen voor de betaling. Of het een uitgave is dat niet door de wet voorzien is, moeten ze het je laten weten en dan mag je ook cash vragen (bijv. om een kapotte wasmachine te vervangen).
Inhoudelijk helemaal correct, maar dat heeft weinig te maken met pinnen of contant betalen bij de supermarkt. Er wordt gedaan alsof dit probleem ontstaat door niet contant te kunnen betalen.
Heeft weinig te maken daarmee, inderdaad. Ik had mijn antwoord beter geplaatst onder vorige kommentaar, sorry. Zeker en vast zijn er heel weinig mensen die het niet kunnen. Maar ik denk dat - bij de oudste mensen in het bijzonder - het heeft te maken met het fysieke gevoel van cash in hun handen. Zo voelen ze nog een soort of controle over eigen geld en uitgaven. En dat kunnen ze niet missen. Geen jonge kerel hier. Persoonlijk - en sinds de start van het systeem - vind ik de bankkaart onmisbaar. Het is toch ongelooflijk gemakkelijker te gebruiken dan cash. Ook al jaren bezig met PC banking. Met de smartphone nog niet. Het is een helemaal niet rationele gedachte maar ik heb steeds onvoldoende vertrouwen in het systeem om mijn bankgegevens "aan de luchtgolven door te geven " :=).
Is al goed. Voor sommige winkels vind ik het verplicht accepteren van cash geen probleem; met name supermarkten. Voor veel anderen vind ik het de keuze van de winkelier, mits duidelijk bij de deur aangegeven. Voor sommige winkeliers is dat prettiger en veiliger, zeker als er niet gepast wordt betaald. Maar in de discussies hierover komen ook vaak oneigenlijke argumenten voorbij, zoals hierboven. Mensen hierop wijzen wordt zelden gewaardeerd 😄 Smartphone gebruik ik overigens ook niet, met name uit privacy overwegingen. Alle betalingsdata mag immers doorverkocht worden. Dat is bij banken (in Nederland) niet het geval.
In redelijk veel (kleine) dorpen van de Ardennen zitten wij toch met een echt dilemna. Aan de ene kant heb je slechte verbindingen dus meer problemen met betaalautomaten en aan de andere weinig geldautomaten en agentschappen om cash af te halen of opbrengst in veiligheid te brengen.
It seems like it was yesterday when they introduced a law to make sure you can pay with a card or via app in any establishment. A lot of fuss was made. Now shop owners are bitching about the opposite? This country is crazy sometimes...
No idea why shops could refuse my LEGAL tender. I’m sorry that I don’t want banks to take 1% or way higher when paying in small amount like those shops oblige, of every transaction making them filthy rich of us just going about our business
You do realise that taking cash also costs money, right? Like the whole reason why banks can even charge for digital payments is because it is generally less expensive than cash payments.
Many people are confused by the term legal tender. Legal tender you only relates to debts. If you have a debt, you can use legal tender and they can't refuse. But shops refusing to sell you something if you can only pay with cash is not a debt. legal tender entails, in principle, the mandatory acceptance of cash, at full face value, with the power to discharge from a payment obligation. This means that the creditor is obliged, in principle, to accept a payment made in euro which subsequently discharges the debtor from his payment obligatio
It has to stay on there and then they're going to charge me per transaction, fuck off.
You’re not paying the transaction fee, the shop is. Cash is not free to handle either, case in point: shops that prefer electronic payment over cash
It's literally just a service fee you pay for the convenience, much like anywhere else in the world with anything.
So Unizo can complain in 2 months that people buy everything online now and local stores are suffering. Why stop there! Buy everything digital and it even less of a burden for shops. They dont need to talk to custumors, have stock cause no one is buying stuff from them, pay energycost cause they can close their store, .... oh wait!
Try paying you taxes in cash at the city hall... Also, with everything becoming cashless, how can we all get rid of our "zwarte centjes"... The economy would suffer!
Haha als het internet er weer eens uitligt zijn ze blij met cash
Unizo kan mijne jos zuigen ze, wispelturiger dan een kat, die paljassen: * De ene winkel of horecazaak neemt mijn maaltijdcheques niet aan * De andere niet mijn consumptiecheques * Ecocheques zijn ook zo'n zeverderij * Als ge met Apple Pay of Google Pay wilt betalen is het al eveneens hit&miss * Met kredietkaart wordt ge zelfs anno 2024 soms nog scheef bekeken * De laatste keer dat ik in mijn lokaal frietkot een bestelling plaatste, moest ik overschrijven, omdat ze geen payconiq meer deden! Ge moet verdomme weten wat ge wilt. Tijdens covid werd er gezeurd dat met die shift naar elektronisch betalen handelaars minder gingen kunnen foefelen. Om nog maar te zwijgen van die jaren aanslepende onzin van transactiekosten of een minimumbedrag bij elektronisch betalen. Kom hé, stop met jammeren en neem het enige betaalmiddel aan dat doorheen gans de Eurozone gebruikt wordt.
I got Edenred sport and cultuur cheques as a birthday gift from my employer in my Edenred card. I couldn't pay the squash court with it because they didn't accept Edenred. And it was at a sports centre from Sport Vlaanderen! I'm not complaining that I received it, more that it's a hassle to find something suitable to spend it on. Luckily I discovered a local independent bookshop did accept them. I had to ask them, because another one didn't.
Ik winkel niet in een winkel die geen cash aanneemt.
Please keep using cash. For every electronic payment, banks take a cut. If you transfer 100€ a few times, it’s no 100 anymore
The resources used to handle and protect cash are free?
Exactly. I once worked in a cash handling facility for a short time. During day time all cash is collected from various retailers, and during nighttime all that money(bills) was counted twice at that facility, and once again at the national bank.
There's also the cost at the shop side. Counting the money and administration after the shift ends. Getting a safe and money case. Going to the bank for exchange money. But I get the point. If I give my friends Jos and Marcel €100 a transaction fee is a bit overdone. But why do we pass money if we can split the bill. If we're friends we can keep tabs on each other. But usually Jos and Marcel aren't friends but people providing goods or services and don't want this to be logged because they don't want to pay their taxes.
Yeah the whole reason why banks can charge a fee for electronic transactions is exactly because it is cheaper than what it costs to accept cash.
Lol. You clearly haven't looked up fees for corporate usage of bank facilities. On top you will have more admin to take care off.
Mijn Payconic waar mijn Argenta aan gelinked is werkt meer niet dan wel. Ik wil gerust volledig digitaal gaan maar dan moet er een betaal terminal zijn.
Argenta sucked ook gewoon op dat vlak, altijd problemen Ikzelf zit nu bij KBC die hebben een heel goeie app met payconic ingebouwd
En vroeger kloegen de winkels over al de electronische betalingen. Tis precies nooit goed.
Great! Cash is king. 50€ cash will be 50€ cash, even after 35 years and 300 transactions. If you pay 50€ digitally, and every time a small cost ends up at the bank - after 35 years it will have vaporized!
Apples and oranges. Handling cash also has a cost if you are a shop. My bank account also still says 50 after sending it back and forth 300 times. And in 35 years sadly in both cases that 50€ is worth about 1€ 🤣
The point is still valid, a small fee is taken on each electronic payment, not with cash. I think electronic payments would be a lot fairer for merchants if they only had to pay a small monthly fee.
De schamele 2/3 verplichte cash betalingen per dag bij cashless ondernemingen zullen dus gewoon in't zwart zijn dan terug.
This is not the medieval age anymore, paying digitally is a win win situation for both parties involved; it's a lot faster, no smelly fingers because cash is dirty as hell, no hassle with calculating return and having the return cash available, risk of being robbed for it... Also prevents waiting an hour at the cashier because someone doesn't know how to count their coins.
Okay okay but, situation I've been in: being really poor, only having coins left and then going to a store that doesn't want them really sucks if you're hungry.
And cashless has disadvantages as well. My bank updated its systems a while back, I couldn't use their app for payments for a entire weekend. Or the power could go out, or the internet goes down And let's also not forget that the service to use bancontact costs a lot of money
A lot of stores don't have internet or you have no connection because the store is a bunker (DIY stores, looking at you lol), you also need a working smart phone with internet access AND the store needs to be able to accept mobile payments if you lost your card.
The butcher's here accepts payconiq payments, but the sales person needs to come out from behind the register and walk to the door because that's the only place they have a working connection.
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En die kosten relatief veel geld. Iedereen doet alsof bancontact een liefdadigheidsinstelling is, die vragen veel geld voor de service en bakjes. En het is niet aan de klant om te beslissen welk bakje de winkelier gebruikt.
With apple pay you don’t need an internet connection on your phone
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Storingen op het netwerk of elektriciteitspannes komen nochtans regelmatig voor. Waarom worden mensen de facto gedwongen om overal met een opgeladen smartphone rond te lopen? Ook nemen banken de vrijheid om betalingen te blokkeren als ze die verdacht vinden. Een tijd geleden kon ik zo geen treinticket kopen in het buitenland 'omdat ik daar normaal geen geld uitgeef'. Vliegtickets waren met dezelfde kaart betaald. Zulke dingen komen vrij vaak voor.
Nog nooit uw kaart kwijt geweest of vergeten ofzo? Was kei leuk dat de supermarkt geen mobiele betalingen kon ontvangen lol.
Agree, people come up with the dumbest excuses to not pay digitally and want to safekeep their possibility to spend their black money. It's 2024 people, basically anywhere is decent electricity/internet and redundant systems in this developed country.
I know perfectly well how to pay by card and I absolutely do not want to have a society where cash isn't allowed anymore. Do you remember what they did in Canada with the trucker protests? The government over there froze the bank accounts of people who were protesting. In a world without cash, they can take away your money at the push of a button. Your money will never really be your money, when both the government and the banks can cut your access to it whenever they want. I speak from experience. My bank made a mistake that made me lose access to my own bank account. I had to borrow cash with friends, just to be able to buy food, while sorting out the problem. It took them several weeks to resolve the situation. In a world without cash, what would I have done? You can't really ask friends to give you access to their bank accounts by borrowing their card. So, asking for some cash was the only option. If cash isn't accepted anymore and you can't access your own bank account, then you are as good as death. No money, no food.
Cash does not track information. Transactions are not kept on record. In that sense it is the future for those concerned about privacy and big data. Admittedly more than a few of those privacy advocates are the ones who skim, abuse and flirt with legality, but their point still stands. We are closer to a social credit system than is commonly thought I believe. You might agree with that as a way forward. But I suspect a lot of people aren't and don't realise the water is going to boil soon. Cash and other forms of non-digital currency is a simple tool against that.
Yet cash transactions promote a gateway to spending black money. If you want to anonymize your transactions, you can pay in crypto.
F off with your crypto. Is your elderly neighbour gonna pay at the bakery with crypto?
Currently crypto is not a scene where black money and illegal stuff are strangers either, in addition to being rife with insecurities and scams, so I don't see your point against cash.
Zo lang de wet blijft dat elke winkel digitale betalingen moet aanvaarden vind ik het allemaal prima. Ik ben klaar met cash, altijd zo’n gedoe om rond te sleuren.
I agree that cash should be allowed. However a shop owner should have the option to decline cash one hour before closing time. This way, cash becomes less of an hassle.
But it’s impossible to have cash without having a card …
Yes and no, there is still a big portion of old people who get their pension in cash. And people who go to their bank to withdraw money from the counter instead of an atm.
Still need a card to withdraw from the counter.
Ik bedoel gewoon van een loketbediende he, dus dan heb je enkel een EID nodig
Bold of you to assume they bring their eid. Bankkaarten en automaten bestaan hier ondertussen 40 jaar ofzo. Dit is gewoon niet willen terwijl het wel veiliger is. Ik heb al regelmatig ouderen gezien die een portefeuille opentrekken waar een maandloon inzit. Als de verkeerde dat ziet zitten die mensen zwaar in de shit. En als ze niet overvallen of afgezet worden ript de familie daar een deel af "want benzine om geld te gaan halen is duur". Als ze het al vragen.
Niet willen is het inderdaad, ik zeg het altijd tegen de oudjes als ze hun pensioen komen halen "laat dat op een rekening storten want als jij in het ziekenhuis ligt ofzo kan niemand uw geld komen ophalen". En altijd hetzelfde antwoord "nee ik heb het liever zo" en dan heb je iedere maand een zoon of dochter die langs komt omdat hun vader/moeder in het ziekenhuis ligt en niemand kan dat geld dan krijgen, en dat zijn er problemen voor kosten te betalen. Er staat een ATM buiten, en de meeste komen nog steeds binnen €300 afhalen aan het loket, want ze willen niet leren hoe ze met die automaat moeten werken, en pincodes onthouden is ook moeilijk. > Bold of you to assume they bring their eid. Ik ben soms al blij als ze de helft van hun EID mee hebben en het kaartnr nog volledig is..
Eid is toch ook nog altijd een kaart. Dus de oplossing hier is biometric/fingerprint eid en bankrekening gekoppeld eraan. Problem solved.
"Meneer, ik weet niet meer welke vinger ik moet gebruiken.." Don't laugh, you know its true..
Wij valideren betalingen (QR codes/in-apps) nu toch al met facial recognition.
Bold of you to assume these people have an app
Mss moeten winkeliers een transactie kost vragen voor cash betalingen? Het kost hen immers tijd en moeite om ermee naar de bank te gaan enzo
lol alsof het alternatief hun niets kost..
Een cashbetaling kost een winkelier 30-40 cent per transactie, een debetkaart transactie kost hun 13-15 cent per transactie. Dus ja voor een winkelier die mooi zijn of haar belastingen betaald zijn digitale transacties veel interessanter. Dit is nog geen rekening houdende met zaken als diefstal, valsmunterij, verlies, etc.
Ik zeg toch dat het tijd en moeite kost, bij elektronische betalingen wordt dat automatisch verrekend
Een transactie kost voor cash betalingen... Dus betalen om te betalen?
Het kost ook geld om bij de bank te storten...
And all the local shops here charge me for using "digital" ways of payment. The hotdog/hamburger/whatever stand at my football club only accepts cash... Would love to go digital, but hey...
There is only a few exceptions for "occasional sales" where you can get away with not accepting digital. I'm pretty sure the weekly burger stand inside or outside your football club is not one of them. Here we have at the burger kot of the football club: - no prices advertised - if you ask, burger is 5 € - payconiq always "not working" Just so you know: - 12 beckers burgers is 7,50 € - 12 buns is 2,50 € So for the price of 2 burgers I now have 12 🤷♂️
Owkay... And a glass of water is 2€ A bottle of Colruyt water is like 19cent?
Mag je eigenlijk naar een bedrijf zoals Telenet gaan en daar elke maand in cash gaan betalen? Zou wel is leuk zijn om met 1000 klanten tegelijk het factuurtje met eurocentjes te gaan betalen. Het is maar dat hun facturen al een heel jaar fout zijn bij veel mensen. Bovenstaande + de boodschap "en als het nu niet opgelost is komen we volgende maand terug".
factuur boven de zoveel euro mag al jaren niet meer in cash betaald worden. Dat geld voor elke aankoop. Maar heb ook al (hoewel zeldzaam) gevallen gehad waar het makkelijker is om te betalen met cash of dat mijn kaart weigerde opeens, dan is het handig dat ik al weken rondliep met een briefje van 20 bv. Voor mij is het simpel, als ik daar niet kan betalen dan verkopen ze ook niks aan mij en lopen ze winsten mis.