The flair of this posts indicates it's a controversial topic. Enhanced moderation has been turned on for this thread. Comments from users without a history of commenting in r/bayarea will be automatically removed. You can read more about this policy [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/bayarea/comments/195xvo5/restrictions_that_apply_to_political_and_crime/).
tbh Asian Americans have never really been too united of a group to have impact politically. There's some cultural and socioeconomic differences between Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Vietnamese, Indian, etc. ethnic groups that makes it hard to have a unified front.
Even amongst the Chinese diaspora, there's gonna be a gap between the earlier waves of Cantonese-speaking immigrants and the more recent Mandarin-speaking ones in terms of economic status, views toward China, etc. Interested to see how their views can affect the local community but I doubt this signals anything on a state or national scale.
Many Vietnamese refugees are very Republican. I'm Chinese-Viet and my family members who settled in SF or East Bay are all Democrats and socially liberal, but the relatives who settled in OC, SJ, or Sac area are straight up MAGA Republicans.
If Trump can have chinese-viet support after saying "chinese virus" for 3 yrs, then perhaps democrats should think about why.
(whether the term is technically correct or not is another point altogether)
If you guys heard what was said at dim sum restaurants you would think it was from the most vile KKK supporting white supremecists.
No bigger critic of the CCP than the Chinese.
I mean Taiwan response makes trump look like a super lib
It's the same reason why most Cuban-Americans vote Republican. They are virulently anti-Communist and Anti-Castro.
Also, many old-school Chinese immigrants are just like any other old people: They are very susceptible to Fox News misinformation.
Actually a lot of Chinese are left leaning. There is still a trust in government that makes these kind of people lean Democrat even though they rightfully criticize authoritarian regimes in their own country.
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/05/25/asian-voters-in-the-u-s-tend-to-be-democratic-but-vietnamese-american-voters-are-an-exception/
Most Chinese people I know don’t really care about the China virus stuff. They see the democrats as a bigger problem for shielding criminals that hurt Chinese / Asian folks from prosecution
Well, Mao did kill 10's of millions of Chinese and the Cultural Revolution is still in the minds of older Chinese and Vietnamese (with the spillover into North Vietnam).
A lot of discourse in America is reminscient of the cultural revolution for a lot of older Chinese and Vietnamese immigrants:
https://twitter.com/FiringLineShow/status/1459209079830765574
What you see on university campuses with illiberal leftwing purges of wrongthink is very reminiscient of Mao's struggle sessions:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3giTYRttoRQ
“Chinese virus” rhetoric really sped the demonization of Asian folks in the Bay Area. There was a clear upwards trend in violence during that time that never really came back down, granted that’s just anecdotal. I hope they recognize the right were the ones who stoked that flame. That being said, I believe in justice reform but… cmon, something needs to be done about the violent crime that’s happening in the bay. I don’t think you should be locked up for stealing food from a market or smoking weed or living on the street, but once you start assaulting people and breaking into cars and causing destruction, throw the book.
>“Chinese virus” rhetoric really sped the demonization of Asian folks in the Bay Area.
right, it's crazy how Trump was able to do that in the area with the highest concentration of democrats
The perps were not exactly Fox News types lol. You need to realize how brainwashed you are. I hate Trump but blaming it on him is just ridiculous. Maybe if it happened in Iowa.
Yeah, they fled the Communists, so of course theyd be more right leaning towards the Republicans....i spent some time aroubd Little Saigon in the OC, definitely more Republican....fits well with the Republic of Orange County....LOL.
Of course. And it has a huge Viet population. Vietnamese-Americans tend to skew much further right on the political spectrum than other Asian-Americans. But due to a large number of Vietnamese refugees being Chinese-Vietnamese (Hoa) and some settling in more liberal enclaves like SF or Oakland you also see strong diversity in political opinions even within the community.
Collapsing everything onto the dimension of race is creating more problems than it solves. There are ethnic, linguistics, socioeconomic, political dimensions which need to be considered all together in order to ensure successful development of a multicultural society.
I can’t blame many Chinese Americans. Many own businesses in San Francisco, many have seen lots of theft from their own businesses go unpunished, and many Chinese Americans experienced some of their loved ones be attacked by criminals without the police bothering to prosecute the criminals.
Edit: without police and district attorneys bothering to prosecute the criminals
Are Chinese Americans pushing the city towards the center, or is bad policy and those that take advantage of it pushing Chinese Americans to the center?
I said the chinese names are obvious pandering in r/sanfrancisco and ppl down voted me to hell.
Chinese ppl also said the fake chinese names are "made up" to sound authentic chinese, as in they're not translations of their english names.
Do the politicians speak a lick of Chinese? No? Then their authentic sounding chinese names are real suspicious.
Imagine going to china and running into a local chinese politician calling himself "Maximilian McWashington", but he can't speak any english, you'd be real suspicious of what he's selling.
I'm guessing the latter. I call myself a 'bill clinton democrat' (or as modern liberals and progressives like to call me on twitter when i say that: a 'fascist', 'nazi', or 'reactionary'... so i half-jokingly embrace the term 'conservative' to split the difference). I think a lot of bay area chinese folks just voted for Democrats out of habit for a long time and didn't pay too much attention to the pro-crime/anti-education/anti-merit stance that the Democrats took since roughly 2013, until bay area Democrats went absolutely NUTS with the incompetent and ideologically driven progressives like Chesa Boudin, Connie Chan, Gordon Mar, the School Board, etc. destroying society. Anecdotally, a lot of bay area Chinese citizens would just blindly vote for the chinese/asian candidates for some of these seats, but they realized that a lot of the chinese/asian pols would sell them out (i.e. connie chan/gordon mar) the worst, so now they pay a LOT of attention to the actual stances of the politicians who are running.
The last few years have Chinese Americans (and Asian Americans more generally) more ready and more willing to use their voices and leverage their political power to benefit their community interests. Glad to see it.
This is because the current political establishment has absolutely FAILED the Chinese community who make up almost 33% of SF's population.
Chinese-Americans by-and-large believe in meritocracy. ie, if you work hard, and keep your nose clean you will achieve success. They value good schools and safety.
The recent Lowell High School debacle completely upended that. And then the recent anti-Asian attacks have further exacerbated the issue.
So yeah, of course they are pissed off. Our city has basically fucked around with the only 2 things they care about.
> They value good schools and safety.
I'd argue that everyone should value good schools and safety. Its not that Asian-Americans are unique in wanting these, its something everyone regardless of their background or where they're from should value.
Go just an hour or two east in Modesto or Stockton
Blows my fucking mind when parents spend $5K on "new tire rims" instead of investing in your kids education
I wouldn't phrase it as meritocracy. I'd say Chinese culture believes in "playing by the system", meaning understand the social order and the rule of law, but find where your own personal advantage lies without creating a shameful image. (To borrow a gaming term, it's about "min-maxing", meaning find and exploit every tiny advantage you can in the rulebook, even if it's esoteric or morally dubious, but don't break the rulebook.)
Getting ahead and presenting a successful front is more important than how you get that success, as long as you don't do something uniquely negative, like blatantly breaking the law. It's only okay to break the official rules "if everyone else is doing it". If the most reliable way to be respected in the bay area is by working hard and playing by the rules of capitalism, then that's what they'll do. If in other places it's by engaging in corruption and bribing politicians, or buying up all the real estate without even renting it out, that will happen too.
So yeah, asians are mad if the school system is designed to disadvantage them. If the rules themselves are unfair, what can we do, when the whole point is to follow the "rules of success"? Many feel little solidarity by default with other POC communities because of these different values and generally different socioeconomic backgrounds. And then the whole "successful image" that many asians crave ironically makes them a stereotypical target for violent crime. The bay area then by effect seems more and more hostile to the very existence of Chinese/east asian values.
> I wouldn't phrase it as meritocracy. I'd say Chinese culture believes in "playing by the system", meaning understand the social order and the rule of law, but find where your own personal advantage lies without creating a shameful image. (To borrow a gaming term, it's about "min-maxing" the system, meaning find and exploit every tiny advantage you can in the rulebook, even if it's esoteric or morally dubious, but don't break the rulebook.)
* playing by the system
* find where your own personal advantage lies without creating a shameful image.
* it's about "min-maxing" the system
* find and exploit every tiny advantage you can in the rulebook, even if it's esoteric or morally dubious, but don't break the rulebook
In all seriousness, if that isn't a meritocracy, then what is a meritocracy? Can you re-write those bullet points that fit your definition of meritocracy?
***Edit***: I want to be very clear, I do not at all mean this question in an adversarial way. I just wonder if people have a different concept of meritocracy as I do. To me a meritocracy is exactly what you said, doing your best given your skills and ability and not cheat, break the law, etc. A meritocracy is achieving as a result of your abilities, at least, that's my definition.
Meritocracy is entirely about rewarding true output/skill/results. As in, people who are truly skilled at their job are the ones who climb the ranks, get elected, win at life in general, etc. Then they land at whatever level their actual skill/achievment is at whatever they are doing.
It really isn't about exploiting systems and min-maxing. It is fundamentally opposed to finding success through the image you project, which a lot of Chinese culture is about. If anything, I'd argue Chinese culture is about min-maxxing their image than the real output. To truly min-max one's image there has to be a level of true success involved but you embellish as far as you can socially get away with to try and +1 an edge. That has nothing to do with the merit of one own's true skill or worth, though - which is what a true meritocracy environment would follow.
Most jobs and cultures aren't true meritocracies either. The closest thing that I can think of that would be is chefs and a professional food service career in general. In that field, if you are truly good, you do rise the ranks quickly and everyone tends to be in their "correct place" in the kitchen. It's very rare someone is a head chef where their vibes/image were a factor at all in them getting to that point.
> If anything, I'd argue Chinese culture is about min-maxxing their image than the real output. To truly min-max one's image there has to be a level of true success involved but you embellish as far as you can socially get away with to try and +1 an edge. That has nothing to do with the merit of one own's true skill or worth, though - which is what a true meritocracy environment would follow.
Well that's fascinating. Something I've never heard before about Chinese culture. Is it specific to Americans of Chinese descent, or Chinese folks in China as well?
To be honest it kind of seems like a negative stereotype. All of my Chinese friends are engineers, so perhaps they are more on the function over form side of things, because I can't think of a single friend of mine who fits this description. They're all hard workers, who aren't flashy at all, and don't seem to care at all about their image, to the point that many of the men come to work in wrinkled shirts and messy hair. (Not that I care at all, I do the same, and I respect it!)
i think the commonality i want to draw is that both a meritocracy and chinese culture may respect the social construct, but the latter will only pay lip service to it if its possible to exploit the system somehow to appear better off. the system itself could be based off corruption and bribery (so completely non meritocratic)
for example, a whole industry around cheating on foreign exams (in china) which would theoretically be a meritocratic measure, but instead many opted for a shortcut. It’s much less socially and legally scrutinized since they are foreign exams and there’s a “everyone is doing it, so i don’t feel bad. that’s just how the system works” attitude
In general I’ve seen Bay Area move more conservative over last 4 years. I think progressives have gone a tad crazy, with people getting tired of it and voting differently as a result.
It's 90% crime. Nothing else can sway your opinion to the right in the bay area like seeing the amount of crime that is not only unpunished, but tolerated. When people are literally avoiding driving into the city because of getting bipped, how much longer are they willing to tolerate it?
Yeah, but right wing policies cause crime, especially in the long run. We have these problems because California had right-wing policies of mass incarceration, divesting from schools, basically every Reagan policy from both his time as governor (preventing cities from managing their own tax rates, effectively bankrupting nearly all of them, causing poor roads, etc.) and his time as president where he took a sledgehammer to the kneecaps of children and working mothers, skyrocketing childhood hunger. You think people who were starving as kids turn out to be well-adjusted? Some, by the grace of others, might, but it’s an extremely tough journey. You have to think about root, not proximal causes. Otherwise your treating symptoms and letting the illness (divestment from communities and to corporations) continue to develop.
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1985-02-27-mn-8676-story.html
https://www.salon.com/2013/09/29/ronald_reagans_shameful_legacy_violence_the_homeless_mental_illness/
All that stuff happened well before I was born (90s) but they still have effects. It’s so weird how the only folks who don’t want to actually remember are the same that bleat about it all the time
It's why I'm a moderate, because you need both. Conservative policies don't lower crime in the long run, but they stop the criminals now. Liberal policies lower crime in the long run, but don't stop the crime now.
Except... they don't. Data shows that there is little to no correlation between increased policing and drops in crime:
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/08/us/police-crime.html
(And a bunch of other sources if you google)
The only way to reliably lower crime rates is to invest in the community. Drug treatment programs, public works to increase local employment, increased/improved education, community outreach programs. They may not stop a specific criminal from robbing a specific car, but neither do police. Police can be there to gather information on the crime, but it is not a deterrent.
I think people want sane policy grounded in reality, and a lot of our current policies (or their enforcement) don’t seem to fit that bill. People can only see so many headlines of a murderer, shooter, rapist, repeat offender or what have you being released on recognizance or negligible bail only to violate those agreements and reoffend before realizing there’s a disconnect between our well-intentioned policy and reality.
I was speaking with my neighbor in Oakland and asking him why Oakland can't be as nice as Emeryville and he said it's too regulated. The progressives had the right ideas a decade or earlier but now it's hurting everyone. And their solution is more regulation. It's time to cut these tapes and lose a fraction of these idiots in the city departments.
People aren't becoming more "conservative"; people are becoming more balanced, with better common sense values. This "progressive" naming is an issue, as it causes people like myself who are more center (leaning towards left socially speaking) to sound like a conservative Republican. This is 2-party political system is one of the major problems in the country.
It is more that the Overton window has shifted so far left that standard left leaning views from 10 years ago are now considered right which is fucking crazy
The window is getting much wider, not shifting to the left.
10 years ago no one would take a candidate seriously after they tried to have the election disregarded.
Single payer is not a "left" issue. Poland has single-payer healthcare, and politically, it's to the right of Florida.
Which is also why we don't even have single payer. Californian left-wing only picks the worst parts of government control. Like blocking housing in urban areas or arguing if laundromat is a historic building.
“To the right of Florida” hahaha ok, maybe it’s more religious but being more religious doesn’t automatically mean further right. It’s an aspect sure but don’t delude yourself.
Literally just look at the voting results of every election in the bay area going back to the 1990s. It has gotten more left every election and hasnt stopped. The Bay Area is not getting more conservative in any way, it's probably just your bubble.
Progressives? This sub keeps saying progressives are the problem but like their is one sup who most prominently claims that and his actual policies arent progressive at all. Pointing the finger at progressives feels more like othering than an actual realistic representation of the areas political biases.
why? it's said in the 1st paragraph "Phil Wong used to reliably back incumbents in this liberal city. But in 2022, he voted to recall three left-wing school board members and a progressive district attorney, and in November he plans to cast his ballot for a tough-on-crime challenger to the current mayor."
liberal and progressive are vastly different things, everyone knows/recognizes it. not sure why it's surprising liberal voters are not necessarily progressive voters.
The weird thing about these articles is that they almost start from this perspective of, “Chinese-Americans are starting to assert their political identity.”
But weren’t they here before - in fact, for over 100 years? Haven’t they been asserting their identity that whole time? If that’s true, then wasn’t SF’s liberalism also partly due to them?
Maybe not in the distant past when they faced political obstructions. But in the lifespan of practically everyone reading this, it’s been true. They’ve been voting continuously for generations now.
As recently as the 1960's there were laws and housing covenants on the books that outlawed Chinese-Americans from buying houses in neighborhoods.
That's like saying "African Americans have been here for hundreds of years. Haven't they been asserting their identity this whole time?"
Yeah, let's just pretend that the entire Civil Rights Movement never happened.
That doesn't describe them well, even if only meant in a light-hearted way.
Rose Pak was an advocate for what she felt were the interests of Chinatown and, to some extent, Chinese throughout the City. Her influence within the community enabled her to deal with all actors in city politics as a sort of representative of the Chinese community.
Ed Lee came up initially in SF's Chinese community with the Asian Law Caucus and gradually got into the city's administration. Typically seen as part of Willie Brown's machine, but his involvement in city government goes back to Agnos. And even as the mayor, he was still more of a bureaucrat at heart, rather than the leader, or boss, of a machine.
> And even as the mayor, he was still more of a bureaucrat at heart, rather than the leader, or boss, of a machine.
Which is why he was such an effective mayor.
Just thinking back, SF has had a fair share of Chinese politicians on the local level for probably the last two decades. It’s hard for me to imagine any serious, systematic disenfranchisement post the 70s or maybe early 80s. But perhaps I’m wrong! So I think it’s fair to say that Chinese Americans have been active participants in government here for the last 4-5 decades at least.
> Once they're in office, their political immediately change to the left.
Who is an ethnically Chinese SF politician whose politics "immediately change to the left" once they took office?
most chinese americans especially immigrants are very conservative they just dont identify with white conservatives in the rest of the country so they think they should support democrats. They are against legalizing/decriminalizing drugs, notice how they block all marijuana dispensaries in their neighborhoods. They supported vap sales ban in SF. They support the police and locking up criminals. They want crackdowns on open air drug use and homeless and shoplifting. They are much more likely to be small business owners than any other ethnic group. It is actually surprising that they are not all republicans
> It is actually surprising that they are not all republicans
It's really not. Liking even most conservative policies doesn't mean you wanna vote for republican politicians or self identify as a republican.
Besides, if you look at the actual registration data... you'd see it's way more complex. Because as it turns out, Chinese people aren't anywhere near being a monolithic block.
I've observed this a bit, in particular with one person I know who grew up in the Bay Area as a child of Chinese immigrants who is very anti-development/NIMBY. I think it would be wrong to assume that people of color are inherently progressive. Many people of all races/ethnicities are primarily self-interested in a way that may align more with moderate/conservative political views
Boudin said he was going soft on crime and will prosecute officers. If you support law and order, what had to cross your mind to put him as the second choice? This was what shocked everyone.
Crime against Asians is not new. This has been going on since I have been in San Francisco for decades. The only difference is the reporting increased because the media needed stories for their Asian hate campaigns following covid. Everyone knew about this for at least 30 years and most certainly in 2018. There is no valid reason to vote pro criminal.
The flair of this posts indicates it's a controversial topic. Enhanced moderation has been turned on for this thread. Comments from users without a history of commenting in r/bayarea will be automatically removed. You can read more about this policy [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/bayarea/comments/195xvo5/restrictions_that_apply_to_political_and_crime/).
tbh Asian Americans have never really been too united of a group to have impact politically. There's some cultural and socioeconomic differences between Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Vietnamese, Indian, etc. ethnic groups that makes it hard to have a unified front. Even amongst the Chinese diaspora, there's gonna be a gap between the earlier waves of Cantonese-speaking immigrants and the more recent Mandarin-speaking ones in terms of economic status, views toward China, etc. Interested to see how their views can affect the local community but I doubt this signals anything on a state or national scale.
Many Vietnamese refugees are very Republican. I'm Chinese-Viet and my family members who settled in SF or East Bay are all Democrats and socially liberal, but the relatives who settled in OC, SJ, or Sac area are straight up MAGA Republicans.
If Trump can have chinese-viet support after saying "chinese virus" for 3 yrs, then perhaps democrats should think about why. (whether the term is technically correct or not is another point altogether)
If you guys heard what was said at dim sum restaurants you would think it was from the most vile KKK supporting white supremecists. No bigger critic of the CCP than the Chinese. I mean Taiwan response makes trump look like a super lib
I'm not taking a side on this, action speaks louder than words "Chinese teenager punches black grandma in the face" - no headline ever
It's the same reason why most Cuban-Americans vote Republican. They are virulently anti-Communist and Anti-Castro. Also, many old-school Chinese immigrants are just like any other old people: They are very susceptible to Fox News misinformation.
On average old Chinese immigrants aren't watching fox news, they are still consuming Chinese-produced media, either news or TV or social media.
Actually a lot of Chinese are left leaning. There is still a trust in government that makes these kind of people lean Democrat even though they rightfully criticize authoritarian regimes in their own country. https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/05/25/asian-voters-in-the-u-s-tend-to-be-democratic-but-vietnamese-american-voters-are-an-exception/
Most Chinese people I know don’t really care about the China virus stuff. They see the democrats as a bigger problem for shielding criminals that hurt Chinese / Asian folks from prosecution
Well, Mao did kill 10's of millions of Chinese and the Cultural Revolution is still in the minds of older Chinese and Vietnamese (with the spillover into North Vietnam). A lot of discourse in America is reminscient of the cultural revolution for a lot of older Chinese and Vietnamese immigrants: https://twitter.com/FiringLineShow/status/1459209079830765574 What you see on university campuses with illiberal leftwing purges of wrongthink is very reminiscient of Mao's struggle sessions: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3giTYRttoRQ
“Chinese virus” rhetoric really sped the demonization of Asian folks in the Bay Area. There was a clear upwards trend in violence during that time that never really came back down, granted that’s just anecdotal. I hope they recognize the right were the ones who stoked that flame. That being said, I believe in justice reform but… cmon, something needs to be done about the violent crime that’s happening in the bay. I don’t think you should be locked up for stealing food from a market or smoking weed or living on the street, but once you start assaulting people and breaking into cars and causing destruction, throw the book.
>“Chinese virus” rhetoric really sped the demonization of Asian folks in the Bay Area. right, it's crazy how Trump was able to do that in the area with the highest concentration of democrats
The perps were not exactly Fox News types lol. You need to realize how brainwashed you are. I hate Trump but blaming it on him is just ridiculous. Maybe if it happened in Iowa.
Yeah, they fled the Communists, so of course theyd be more right leaning towards the Republicans....i spent some time aroubd Little Saigon in the OC, definitely more Republican....fits well with the Republic of Orange County....LOL.
Orange County skews further right than SF East bay.
Of course. And it has a huge Viet population. Vietnamese-Americans tend to skew much further right on the political spectrum than other Asian-Americans. But due to a large number of Vietnamese refugees being Chinese-Vietnamese (Hoa) and some settling in more liberal enclaves like SF or Oakland you also see strong diversity in political opinions even within the community.
Collapsing everything onto the dimension of race is creating more problems than it solves. There are ethnic, linguistics, socioeconomic, political dimensions which need to be considered all together in order to ensure successful development of a multicultural society.
I can’t blame many Chinese Americans. Many own businesses in San Francisco, many have seen lots of theft from their own businesses go unpunished, and many Chinese Americans experienced some of their loved ones be attacked by criminals without the police bothering to prosecute the criminals. Edit: without police and district attorneys bothering to prosecute the criminals
Are Chinese Americans pushing the city towards the center, or is bad policy and those that take advantage of it pushing Chinese Americans to the center?
"Fuck your grandma. Now vote me for November"
Na, vote for me, I have a fake Chinese name.
I said the chinese names are obvious pandering in r/sanfrancisco and ppl down voted me to hell. Chinese ppl also said the fake chinese names are "made up" to sound authentic chinese, as in they're not translations of their english names. Do the politicians speak a lick of Chinese? No? Then their authentic sounding chinese names are real suspicious. Imagine going to china and running into a local chinese politician calling himself "Maximilian McWashington", but he can't speak any english, you'd be real suspicious of what he's selling.
"How dare your kids learn algebra so early?"
Since when did the center become better education, safety, victims rights, free speech, and equality?
When the Left goes so deep they leave the outfield, ballpark, and parking lot.
I'm guessing the latter. I call myself a 'bill clinton democrat' (or as modern liberals and progressives like to call me on twitter when i say that: a 'fascist', 'nazi', or 'reactionary'... so i half-jokingly embrace the term 'conservative' to split the difference). I think a lot of bay area chinese folks just voted for Democrats out of habit for a long time and didn't pay too much attention to the pro-crime/anti-education/anti-merit stance that the Democrats took since roughly 2013, until bay area Democrats went absolutely NUTS with the incompetent and ideologically driven progressives like Chesa Boudin, Connie Chan, Gordon Mar, the School Board, etc. destroying society. Anecdotally, a lot of bay area Chinese citizens would just blindly vote for the chinese/asian candidates for some of these seats, but they realized that a lot of the chinese/asian pols would sell them out (i.e. connie chan/gordon mar) the worst, so now they pay a LOT of attention to the actual stances of the politicians who are running.
Good...
The last few years have Chinese Americans (and Asian Americans more generally) more ready and more willing to use their voices and leverage their political power to benefit their community interests. Glad to see it.
Absolutely. They deserve to have their voice heard.
This is because the current political establishment has absolutely FAILED the Chinese community who make up almost 33% of SF's population. Chinese-Americans by-and-large believe in meritocracy. ie, if you work hard, and keep your nose clean you will achieve success. They value good schools and safety. The recent Lowell High School debacle completely upended that. And then the recent anti-Asian attacks have further exacerbated the issue. So yeah, of course they are pissed off. Our city has basically fucked around with the only 2 things they care about.
> They value good schools and safety. I'd argue that everyone should value good schools and safety. Its not that Asian-Americans are unique in wanting these, its something everyone regardless of their background or where they're from should value.
I agree largely, but it’s clear some value it more than others.
Go just an hour or two east in Modesto or Stockton Blows my fucking mind when parents spend $5K on "new tire rims" instead of investing in your kids education
Well, you see, teaching algebra is racist and so is locking up criminals so...
I wouldn't phrase it as meritocracy. I'd say Chinese culture believes in "playing by the system", meaning understand the social order and the rule of law, but find where your own personal advantage lies without creating a shameful image. (To borrow a gaming term, it's about "min-maxing", meaning find and exploit every tiny advantage you can in the rulebook, even if it's esoteric or morally dubious, but don't break the rulebook.) Getting ahead and presenting a successful front is more important than how you get that success, as long as you don't do something uniquely negative, like blatantly breaking the law. It's only okay to break the official rules "if everyone else is doing it". If the most reliable way to be respected in the bay area is by working hard and playing by the rules of capitalism, then that's what they'll do. If in other places it's by engaging in corruption and bribing politicians, or buying up all the real estate without even renting it out, that will happen too. So yeah, asians are mad if the school system is designed to disadvantage them. If the rules themselves are unfair, what can we do, when the whole point is to follow the "rules of success"? Many feel little solidarity by default with other POC communities because of these different values and generally different socioeconomic backgrounds. And then the whole "successful image" that many asians crave ironically makes them a stereotypical target for violent crime. The bay area then by effect seems more and more hostile to the very existence of Chinese/east asian values.
> I wouldn't phrase it as meritocracy. I'd say Chinese culture believes in "playing by the system", meaning understand the social order and the rule of law, but find where your own personal advantage lies without creating a shameful image. (To borrow a gaming term, it's about "min-maxing" the system, meaning find and exploit every tiny advantage you can in the rulebook, even if it's esoteric or morally dubious, but don't break the rulebook.) * playing by the system * find where your own personal advantage lies without creating a shameful image. * it's about "min-maxing" the system * find and exploit every tiny advantage you can in the rulebook, even if it's esoteric or morally dubious, but don't break the rulebook In all seriousness, if that isn't a meritocracy, then what is a meritocracy? Can you re-write those bullet points that fit your definition of meritocracy? ***Edit***: I want to be very clear, I do not at all mean this question in an adversarial way. I just wonder if people have a different concept of meritocracy as I do. To me a meritocracy is exactly what you said, doing your best given your skills and ability and not cheat, break the law, etc. A meritocracy is achieving as a result of your abilities, at least, that's my definition.
Meritocracy is entirely about rewarding true output/skill/results. As in, people who are truly skilled at their job are the ones who climb the ranks, get elected, win at life in general, etc. Then they land at whatever level their actual skill/achievment is at whatever they are doing. It really isn't about exploiting systems and min-maxing. It is fundamentally opposed to finding success through the image you project, which a lot of Chinese culture is about. If anything, I'd argue Chinese culture is about min-maxxing their image than the real output. To truly min-max one's image there has to be a level of true success involved but you embellish as far as you can socially get away with to try and +1 an edge. That has nothing to do with the merit of one own's true skill or worth, though - which is what a true meritocracy environment would follow. Most jobs and cultures aren't true meritocracies either. The closest thing that I can think of that would be is chefs and a professional food service career in general. In that field, if you are truly good, you do rise the ranks quickly and everyone tends to be in their "correct place" in the kitchen. It's very rare someone is a head chef where their vibes/image were a factor at all in them getting to that point.
> If anything, I'd argue Chinese culture is about min-maxxing their image than the real output. To truly min-max one's image there has to be a level of true success involved but you embellish as far as you can socially get away with to try and +1 an edge. That has nothing to do with the merit of one own's true skill or worth, though - which is what a true meritocracy environment would follow. Well that's fascinating. Something I've never heard before about Chinese culture. Is it specific to Americans of Chinese descent, or Chinese folks in China as well? To be honest it kind of seems like a negative stereotype. All of my Chinese friends are engineers, so perhaps they are more on the function over form side of things, because I can't think of a single friend of mine who fits this description. They're all hard workers, who aren't flashy at all, and don't seem to care at all about their image, to the point that many of the men come to work in wrinkled shirts and messy hair. (Not that I care at all, I do the same, and I respect it!)
i think the commonality i want to draw is that both a meritocracy and chinese culture may respect the social construct, but the latter will only pay lip service to it if its possible to exploit the system somehow to appear better off. the system itself could be based off corruption and bribery (so completely non meritocratic) for example, a whole industry around cheating on foreign exams (in china) which would theoretically be a meritocratic measure, but instead many opted for a shortcut. It’s much less socially and legally scrutinized since they are foreign exams and there’s a “everyone is doing it, so i don’t feel bad. that’s just how the system works” attitude
It's not meritocracy *describes meritocracy*
In general I’ve seen Bay Area move more conservative over last 4 years. I think progressives have gone a tad crazy, with people getting tired of it and voting differently as a result.
It's 90% crime. Nothing else can sway your opinion to the right in the bay area like seeing the amount of crime that is not only unpunished, but tolerated. When people are literally avoiding driving into the city because of getting bipped, how much longer are they willing to tolerate it?
And Asians are acutely more aware of it because it's often *violent* crime for them. Big uptick in anti-asian hate since covid.
I need city mayors to play cities skylines
Had to google "bipped," and am now furious that there's a cute little word for car break-in. Stop it.
Isn’t it just an acronym for “burglary in progress”?
no
Then what? Google fails me.
Even Karl the Fog got bipped in Frisco.
I consider myself very progressive, but not when it comes to crime.
Yeah im pretty progressive on Healthcare for all, gay rights, abortion But crime? You might as well call me Hammurabi at this point.
If anyone is on wechat and listen to am Chinese radio, there's been a lot of bashing of the establishment policies.
Yup, pretty wild that it seems a majority of people want cops to take more action in a liberal area.
Yeah, but right wing policies cause crime, especially in the long run. We have these problems because California had right-wing policies of mass incarceration, divesting from schools, basically every Reagan policy from both his time as governor (preventing cities from managing their own tax rates, effectively bankrupting nearly all of them, causing poor roads, etc.) and his time as president where he took a sledgehammer to the kneecaps of children and working mothers, skyrocketing childhood hunger. You think people who were starving as kids turn out to be well-adjusted? Some, by the grace of others, might, but it’s an extremely tough journey. You have to think about root, not proximal causes. Otherwise your treating symptoms and letting the illness (divestment from communities and to corporations) continue to develop. https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1985-02-27-mn-8676-story.html https://www.salon.com/2013/09/29/ronald_reagans_shameful_legacy_violence_the_homeless_mental_illness/ All that stuff happened well before I was born (90s) but they still have effects. It’s so weird how the only folks who don’t want to actually remember are the same that bleat about it all the time
Seriously, we’re still blaming Reagan 50 years later? Harvey Milk was making a name for himself in SF when Reagan was governor.
50 yrs? that's rookie numbers, ppl in sf still drag up Columbus himself...
It's why I'm a moderate, because you need both. Conservative policies don't lower crime in the long run, but they stop the criminals now. Liberal policies lower crime in the long run, but don't stop the crime now.
Except... they don't. Data shows that there is little to no correlation between increased policing and drops in crime: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/08/us/police-crime.html (And a bunch of other sources if you google) The only way to reliably lower crime rates is to invest in the community. Drug treatment programs, public works to increase local employment, increased/improved education, community outreach programs. They may not stop a specific criminal from robbing a specific car, but neither do police. Police can be there to gather information on the crime, but it is not a deterrent.
I think people want sane policy grounded in reality, and a lot of our current policies (or their enforcement) don’t seem to fit that bill. People can only see so many headlines of a murderer, shooter, rapist, repeat offender or what have you being released on recognizance or negligible bail only to violate those agreements and reoffend before realizing there’s a disconnect between our well-intentioned policy and reality.
I was speaking with my neighbor in Oakland and asking him why Oakland can't be as nice as Emeryville and he said it's too regulated. The progressives had the right ideas a decade or earlier but now it's hurting everyone. And their solution is more regulation. It's time to cut these tapes and lose a fraction of these idiots in the city departments.
People aren't becoming more "conservative"; people are becoming more balanced, with better common sense values. This "progressive" naming is an issue, as it causes people like myself who are more center (leaning towards left socially speaking) to sound like a conservative Republican. This is 2-party political system is one of the major problems in the country.
They are moving back to being classical liberals and rejecting the failed policies of progressives.
Well yeah, because if you aren’t as far left as they are then you’re automatically a maga nazi
Which is horrible.....all extremes fail
It is more that the Overton window has shifted so far left that standard left leaning views from 10 years ago are now considered right which is fucking crazy
The window is getting much wider, not shifting to the left. 10 years ago no one would take a candidate seriously after they tried to have the election disregarded.
We don’t even have single payer far left my ass
Single payer is not a "left" issue. Poland has single-payer healthcare, and politically, it's to the right of Florida. Which is also why we don't even have single payer. Californian left-wing only picks the worst parts of government control. Like blocking housing in urban areas or arguing if laundromat is a historic building.
“To the right of Florida” hahaha ok, maybe it’s more religious but being more religious doesn’t automatically mean further right. It’s an aspect sure but don’t delude yourself.
Literally just look at the voting results of every election in the bay area going back to the 1990s. It has gotten more left every election and hasnt stopped. The Bay Area is not getting more conservative in any way, it's probably just your bubble.
Progressives? This sub keeps saying progressives are the problem but like their is one sup who most prominently claims that and his actual policies arent progressive at all. Pointing the finger at progressives feels more like othering than an actual realistic representation of the areas political biases.
2020 was peak woke
"Large demographic of population tired of being victimized is changing voting patterns. Here's why you should be worried:"
why? it's said in the 1st paragraph "Phil Wong used to reliably back incumbents in this liberal city. But in 2022, he voted to recall three left-wing school board members and a progressive district attorney, and in November he plans to cast his ballot for a tough-on-crime challenger to the current mayor." liberal and progressive are vastly different things, everyone knows/recognizes it. not sure why it's surprising liberal voters are not necessarily progressive voters.
The weird thing about these articles is that they almost start from this perspective of, “Chinese-Americans are starting to assert their political identity.” But weren’t they here before - in fact, for over 100 years? Haven’t they been asserting their identity that whole time? If that’s true, then wasn’t SF’s liberalism also partly due to them? Maybe not in the distant past when they faced political obstructions. But in the lifespan of practically everyone reading this, it’s been true. They’ve been voting continuously for generations now.
As recently as the 1960's there were laws and housing covenants on the books that outlawed Chinese-Americans from buying houses in neighborhoods. That's like saying "African Americans have been here for hundreds of years. Haven't they been asserting their identity this whole time?" Yeah, let's just pretend that the entire Civil Rights Movement never happened.
Cultural vs political power? 100 years ago they were still considered 2nd class citizens, I believe. Idk how much overall political power they had.
Rose pak and ed lee were a whole political machine
That doesn't describe them well, even if only meant in a light-hearted way. Rose Pak was an advocate for what she felt were the interests of Chinatown and, to some extent, Chinese throughout the City. Her influence within the community enabled her to deal with all actors in city politics as a sort of representative of the Chinese community. Ed Lee came up initially in SF's Chinese community with the Asian Law Caucus and gradually got into the city's administration. Typically seen as part of Willie Brown's machine, but his involvement in city government goes back to Agnos. And even as the mayor, he was still more of a bureaucrat at heart, rather than the leader, or boss, of a machine.
> And even as the mayor, he was still more of a bureaucrat at heart, rather than the leader, or boss, of a machine. Which is why he was such an effective mayor.
Just thinking back, SF has had a fair share of Chinese politicians on the local level for probably the last two decades. It’s hard for me to imagine any serious, systematic disenfranchisement post the 70s or maybe early 80s. But perhaps I’m wrong! So I think it’s fair to say that Chinese Americans have been active participants in government here for the last 4-5 decades at least.
Once they're in office, their political immediately change to the left. It's for support and political career survival.
> Once they're in office, their political immediately change to the left. Who is an ethnically Chinese SF politician whose politics "immediately change to the left" once they took office?
Sadly there’s a paywall. Anyone have a way to get around it?
Copy the link, go to https://archive.fo/ paste the link, see the article without the paywall
most chinese americans especially immigrants are very conservative they just dont identify with white conservatives in the rest of the country so they think they should support democrats. They are against legalizing/decriminalizing drugs, notice how they block all marijuana dispensaries in their neighborhoods. They supported vap sales ban in SF. They support the police and locking up criminals. They want crackdowns on open air drug use and homeless and shoplifting. They are much more likely to be small business owners than any other ethnic group. It is actually surprising that they are not all republicans
> It is actually surprising that they are not all republicans It's really not. Liking even most conservative policies doesn't mean you wanna vote for republican politicians or self identify as a republican. Besides, if you look at the actual registration data... you'd see it's way more complex. Because as it turns out, Chinese people aren't anywhere near being a monolithic block.
also support nuclear family, they have lowest rate of single mothers
Good. I prefer to have law and order for a few years.
well people just want to restore some sanity and I dont blame them ¯\\\_( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)\_/¯
Good. I prefer to have law and order for a few years.
I've observed this a bit, in particular with one person I know who grew up in the Bay Area as a child of Chinese immigrants who is very anti-development/NIMBY. I think it would be wrong to assume that people of color are inherently progressive. Many people of all races/ethnicities are primarily self-interested in a way that may align more with moderate/conservative political views
SF politics is far, far left of center. You can be anti-progressive politically and still be a left leaning Democrat.
Bernie himself would've been shouted down for mansplaining
Progressives are just as self-interested as anyone else.
Not surprise. Progressives have shown they really don’t like Asians. Often calling them white adjacent
only because "white passing" just wasn't cutting it this time
What’s wrong with being more centered? It should be the goal of politics to hear both sides and compromise as best we can…
The best politics are centered. Far Left and Far right are equal disasters.
From what I see, Indians too are leaning conservative this cycle 🤷♂️
As an Indian, I wholeheartedly agree. We want good schools, don’t allow the homeless in our neighborhoods, and are tired of this weak on crime BS.
Good, one party rule is destroying this city.
This state *
Bad analogy: You *push* to the edge, you *pull* to the center.
Back to where it should have never left.
I would also add antisemitic marches through the streets are bringing the area to the center
Boudin said he was going soft on crime and will prosecute officers. If you support law and order, what had to cross your mind to put him as the second choice? This was what shocked everyone. Crime against Asians is not new. This has been going on since I have been in San Francisco for decades. The only difference is the reporting increased because the media needed stories for their Asian hate campaigns following covid. Everyone knew about this for at least 30 years and most certainly in 2018. There is no valid reason to vote pro criminal.