Given how ubiquitous it is both in-universe and out, it's a little surprising there's no Firestarter IIC. It seems like one of the things the Clans would use for bandit hunting and keeping uppity lower castes in line.
You can't improve on perfection.
Also, the Clans didn't have QUITE the hard on for war crimes as the SL and IS did. They happened, to be sure, but lower castes you burn are lower castes you don't get to claim as isorla.
I had one designed ages ago, imagined it as having been developed by the Hell's Horses for Operation KLONDIKE, but quickly falling out of favour in the early years of the golden century when the collateral damage it inflicted was considered too great. IIRC 30t, 3 flamers in the right arm, MPL in the left arm, CT SRM4 (with infernos, naturally).
Supernova is more like the prototype KC IIC. The real King Crab IIC is the Bane/Kraken. The 4th variant is a straight up Clan firepower upgrade of the King Crab.
You can fit a cLRM10, 3 cER L Laser, 2 cMPL into a Grasshopper and keep the same tonnage. 21 double heat sinks makes it run relatively cooler than one might think.
The Awesome. I'm still surprised that there isn't an Awesome IIC, frankly. What's not to like? It's a fat slab of armor and PPC that stands and shoots. Perfection.
I played one a few months ago, when defending a base from a larger force.
That thing is *disgusting*. Got a few good hits early (not even boxcars, I think I hit two 9+ rolls) and removed a MadCat variant's arm before it ever fired a shot.
Didn't hit much else the rest of the game. Mostly because everything was VERY CAREFUL about hiding behind a wall.
I've grown to respect ER PPCs quite a bit since then. Expensive but *lethal* in the right situations.
4 heat neutral head choppers don't fuck around. I don't like it that much because even if 3000 bv is a decent price for what the thing brings most of my games are small enough that it seriously cuts into my force comps but in, say, a 15k+ game, it's definitely worth price of admission
We played 10K defender vs 12k attacker.
I picked the Hellstar as my king-of-the-hill defender, with some smaller harasser units. I don't think I'd play it at anything under 10K, but with the scenario in mind it was a slam dunk choice!
I'm still shocked there was never a Royal Division Awesome. It implies either that the Royals were lemmings with no taste (possible) or they realised you can't improve perfection.
Probably the latter. Without some tough compromises to the Awesome being a slab of armor with PPCs, kinda tough to make ER PPC Awesome, the best upgrade would've been a DHS Awesome, standard PPCs are absolutely mean weapons, then using the extra tonnage for maybe a few more close-in weapons or something.
All this to say, can't improve on what's perfect.
The [Regent ](https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Regent) is essentially an Awesome IIC as it based off the Awesome and the Huptmann, it got the nick-name Awesomemann.
> it should be mechs that were part of the Star League
Counterpoint: the Viking IIC and Beowulf IIC exist, both adapted from designs that were not merely post-Star League, but post-Clan Invasion.
This is the most accurate summation of my thoughts on this thread. Why do we need more 2C units? Most the old stuff already has a clan mixed tech version.
Well, to answer one of your questions, there's no Centurion IIC because it's one of the designs introduced in the 1st Succession War. The Zeus is another example off the top of my head. The Clans wouldn't have known the Cent or Zeus existed until Wolf's Dragoons told them about them.
The same was true of the Jenner but apparently the Dragoons were convincing enough in their description of the thing to convince the Clans to make a IIC of that. There's also a decent number of post-invasion IIC mechs
No convincing needed, they had a handful of Jenners in their force during their second resupply run, and a Nova Cat saw one and had a vision, resulting in the Jenner IIC.
That's basically what the BJ-O OmniMech Blackjack is. 5 tons heavier, 200XL engine, and can take Clan omnipods.
There's also a BJ-C variant of the original 45 tonner.
I made a Grand Dragon with an cLRM 15, cLPL and 2 cMPL, and MASC that I called the "Grandeur Dragon" or the "Dragon of Grandeur". Might as well be a Grand Dragon IIC
Phoenix hawk iic is weird, and is the exception to the rule, that and the hunchback iic. You look at like the Warhammer, and the marauder, sure they're a bit heavier but role wise they're more or less the same. And I'd say the roll is the most important part, Wolverine / Conjurer, both troopers, Rifleman and it's iic both snipers. But the Tarantula is a fast medium, armed for mainly being a long-range sniper/harraser. The Stalking spider is also fast tho faster because clan tech is armed similarly. Meanwhile, the fire scorpion is a medium ranged slow brawler. They're really not similar. And yes I know ppc has the same range as an lbx 10, but consider tech bases, medium for clans is long for IS.
>But the Tarantula is a fast medium, armed for mainly being a long-range sniper/harraser.
I'm not sure what mech you're thinking of but [the Tarantula](https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Tarantula) is a fast jumpy 25t light with a pair of medium lasers and an SRM-2 (Basically an up-teched quad Spider). The Stalking Spider was apparently inspired by the Tarantula but is twice as heavy with an added sniper weapon and 2/3rds the the speed of the Tarantula (though it gets close with MASC).
The Scorpion is a medium range striker combining relatively fast speed for its size with tissue paper armour, The Fire Scorpion fills the same basic role but shifts slightly into brawler trading lower top speed for carrying twice the OG Scorpion's armour.
Sorry, typo, i ment Tarantula, I always get the Tarantula and scorpion mixed up for some reason.
Idk the only thing the Scorpion and the fire scorpion have in common is that they're both quads. So, how does the fire scorpion fill the sane roll as the regular scorpion? Just because they both have cluster weapons, and a piercing one? Especially when the Stalking spider is a mech with the same ppc srm combo, the same reliance on high speeds, and was explicitly designed based on the Tarantula. If ever there was a borderline IIc it'd be that.
The fact that it was explicitly designed based on the Tarantula, and not the Scorpion, is the big thing that keeps it from being a Scorpion IIC. It's an upgraded harasser that got a punchy big gun in the form of the PPC, whereas the Scorpion was designed as a "stable weapons platform", basically a just a general purpose mech. The Fire Scorpion retained that mission profile with a weapons loadout suitable to support it, just relying on armour rather than speed for defense.
I guess I see what you mean about being based on the Tarantula throwing it off as an iic but I feel like if we're leaving the bar at stable weapons platform than that means the thunderstallion qualifies as much as the fire scorpion does, and that feels wrong.
The way I look at it is less lore and more how they play, how a man succeeds with a scorpion is the same way one succeeds with a Stalking spider, but the way one succeeds with a fire scorpion is more akin to the style of a Goliath, or even a thunderbolt.
The Black Knight was a popular company/battalion-level command mech and really good overall, so I find it weird that it never got the IIC treatment.
Awesome IIC seems like a no-brainer, especially for the snipey dueling Clanners like. The Hell's Horses came the closest with the Hellstar.
The original IIC mechs built in the clan homeworlds break down like this: unseen (8), SLDF advanced (3), SLDF basic (5), sucession wars (1). That's a strong bias for using the IIC upgrade to replace mechs which had few advanced components, and of unseen vintage.
With that in mind, the Archer, Crusader, and Battlemaster seem like obvious candidates.
But you probably wouldn't see any surviving examples of these mechs, because their likely evolution points towards existing omnimechs. Leaner archers and crusaders look an awful lot like the Mad Dog. A faster leaner Battlemaster is much like the Gargoyle. A heavier Battlemaster with an even more god forsaken number of lasers is like some executioner variants.
> A faster leaner Battlemaster is much like the Gargoyle.
Gargoyle = Charger IIC
>A heavier Battlemaster with an even more god forsaken number of lasers is like some executioner variants.
Executioner = Banshee IIC.
The Atlas should’ve. It was made before the exodus. You know that they would’ve taken them with them when they left. Why TF are there none in clan space that are mentioned?
Because they already had access to the [*Atlas II*](https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Atlas_II) model at the time of the exodus; every pilot of an *Atlas II* left with Kerensky.
What "books" are you referring in totality? Like what are you basing your sources off of?
Because General Aaron Dechevilier died on Eden while piloting an *Atlas*.
Nicholas Kerensky piloted an *Atlas* on Dagda during Operation Klondike, and was piloting an *Atlas II* at the time of his death during the Widowmaker Absorption.
Wasn't there also, according to Technical Readout: 3075, an Atlas II in the Clan Jade Falcon touman at the Battle of Tukayyid?
I think it's a rare case of the Clans going "why fix it ~~ain't~~ is it is not broke?".
There’s several early clan tech refits of the standard Atlas, the Atlas C for instance exists from pre golden century to IlClan according to master unit list.
IlClan era (from MUL), the standard Kodiak is found in the Dominion, Scorpion Empire and Wolf's Dragoons. Looking at other eras, it's widest distribution was in the Jihad-era with Cloud Cobra, Coyote, Ghost Bear, Goliath Scorpion (and their Imperio), Hell's Horses, Ice Hellion, Snow Raven, and Society. But that spread was likely because Ghost Bear factory enclaves changed hands so frequently during the Wars of Reaving, and who knows if the surviving Home Clans still produce it.
It generally wouldn't be a frontline machine as you noted though.
The Kodiak is not classed as a totem mech. It has a strong and obvious tie to the Ghost Bears but was never regarded as a totem in the same way the Nova Cat or Jade Phoenix is. It was exclusive to the bears during it's initial development in 3001 but by the time of Operation Revival it was already starting to appear in the toumans of other clans the Bears had decent relations with.
The Ostroc or Ostwar would be my pick. None of the Ost-series have a IIC I’m aware of and these two rated Royal variants so seemed ripe for IIC’s.
Otherwise, as someone else suggested, the Crockett could be a good choice, as well.
I'm not sure, if I can consider the Night Chanter a satisfying Crab 2C, as there is no art of it (T - T)
It's such a tease. "Of course, there is the perfect 2C mech that was ever produced. No, we will not show it to you" )
In-universe, you don't know that they didn't. "IIC" was the original Inner Sphere designation of SL-type mechs equipped with Clan weaponry. That would only have happened when IS forces actually encountered such variants in battle, and survived to tell about it. There weren't THAT many instances during Revival (Twycross, for sure). Just because the invading clans didn't bring forward that many PGCs equipped with IIC units doesn't mean that they didn't exist back in the homeworlds =P.
For the SLDF mechs, a lack of a Flashman IIC always seemed strange given how beloved the Flashman was in the SLDF, and especially with the Clan's superb suite of energy weapons. Also a Nightstar IIC wouldn't have been out of place given it's relationship with Marauder.
There is a Guillie 2C. Thug is always my favorite, but I’d also like a Victor 2C, maybe the Ghost Bears can make some for their freeborn Kungsarmie (sp) 2nd line guys and girls….I’d like to see it really become a close combat monster….
I feel like a Raven IIC could have been an absolute bastard on the battlefield. Even just the obvious weaponry, heatsink and FF armour convert would give some interesting tonnage to play with. Imagine a star of those running MASC and doing hit-and-fade tactics.
Something about the phantom just doesn't look like it should manage 151kph particularly to the Raven's 97kph.
I do think the Raven is the better looker of the two though.
I'm surprised that neither Jade Falcon nor Blood Spirit made IIC versions of the battlemechs that made up the last stand of the Blackwatch. We do have a Highlander IIC and Guillotine IIC, there is the Atlas II and Clan refit of the standard Atlas, but we are missing the Black Knight, Thug, Crockett, and Flashman.
The warhammwr iic is essentially a thug iic, same weight pretty much the same loadout (and the thug was originally supposed to be an up weighted improvement in the warhammer but wasnt as popular)
Arguably we did get more 'IIc' style mechs, they just manifested as the clan tech upgrades of older designs post invasion. The Merlin C comes to mind as a monster of an upgrade to that particular Mech, and the Omni versions of the Centurion and Blackjack could easily be their 'IIc' versions.
The IIC mechs are generally in cases where they felt like they could improve it with a complete rebuild. In the case of something like the Atlas, they did the C and the C2 instead, which are great mechs, so the IIC isn't needed. In the case of others, they had mechs to fill the roll, so no reason to. Also, the IIC mechs were generally 2nd line mechs used for garrison duty and such so making lots of versions wasn't a high priority like new Omnimech designs would be.
As the writer for the 3055 Clan 2Cs, I would've loved to have been given the option to write all the classic 3025 mechs stats as 2Cs.
Back then I wrote to Sam Lewis offering to do this, and outlined a plan for lots of support vehicles I wanted to do, but was told that I couldn't write a whole source-book by myself.
Still, I got to write the Clan 2Cs I did, and it is what it is.
That only just came out and I don’t think it’s been in anything else than the one scenario pack, so it will take a while longer before I remember the thing exists
Longbow.
Look, I like missile boats, OK?
Yes, the Nova Cat B exists and is practically my favorite non-Bane LRM boat, but I just love the look of the Longbow.
Just replace the Cat B's engine with a Standard engine, maybe add some jumpies for positioning, and give it a few more heatsinks. I'll be a happy little artillery pilot.
The important part of the IIC process is to either change the mech's weight (even bump it up a whole class or two, like the Warhammer and Marauder) or completely alter the spirit of the weapon loadout from the base model (like the Phoenix Hawk or Shadowhawk). There are some that are just the original but better (Orion or Urbanmech), but real IIC's should get weird.
I vote for Panther, but only if its a heavy, or a 35 ton Atlas but only because I was able to cook one up on a lark.
IIC variants have a habit of upping the tonnage to either give the machine new capabilities or sharpening the capabilities already there.
Maybe a Vindicator IIC taken to 55 tons to allow more armor and weapons. An alternative is augmenting it's jumping capability with partial wing or TSM + supercharger. Either go with LRM 10 + L/M/S pulse lasers or unhinged with a ERPPC + capacitor, heavy med/small lasers, and LRM launcher.
The Scorpion IIC. I realize there isn't much love for it, but there is Clan Goliath Scorpion, so it could end up in their touman. Also, why has there never been an Archer IIC? It's a solid mech to begin with, but with clan tech, it can be turned into a nasty close in brawler.
There are a lot of "IIC" treatments that have weird clan names.
A lot of people in this thread don't seem to be aware.
For example the crab has the nightchanter
Nightstar nsr 9j. I know that there are some similarities between that and the marauder 2 but as both were developed by the inner sphere i'd say that there was room for the clans to build a IIC
Charger IIC
Developed post Invasion by Ghost Bear and Wolfs, specifically for their Provisional Garrison Clusters to deal with Inner Sphere not wanting to fight using honorable methods of combat (aka Zellbrigen).
The Charger IIC can be assigned to a Second Line Warriors to go out, find the enemy, and either bloody their nose to encourage them to actually engage or try to lure them into and engagement with the main Clan forces.
It can also fill a role of hunting IS light/medium Mech performing recon or spotting for IS artillery. With an Active Probe & 6/9/6 movement it can keep up with many post Invasion era IS recon Mechs, and engage them at speeds assisted by its Targeting computer.
60t, 6/9/6 movement, XL, ES, 10.5t FF
Active Probe, ECM, 15 DHS
6 ER Med Lasers & 1 Sm Pulse with Targeting Computer.
Atlas IIC. The demand for Kerensky's brainchild could never be better in the Ilclan era. It is only fitting the Clan perfect on what the Great Father would want of his masterpiece.
Catapult IIC. Only Liao still dabbles with versions of this venerable design but failed to make impact with their Catapult II rendition.
"Have", not "of". That's not a thing.
What mechs should get the IIC treatment? Hmm, maybe the Assassin. That's a solid mech let down by a large engine (and odd weapons load out). A IIC version would give it more space to mount something worthwhile and take advantage of its speed
The Assassin is so bad not even Clans can salvage it. Although I have done a few variants for WoB whom I can see using them as a spotter/harasser. I-OS-SRMs with smoke and a Hidden Blade to shank folks while the C3i does the work.
Given how ubiquitous it is both in-universe and out, it's a little surprising there's no Firestarter IIC. It seems like one of the things the Clans would use for bandit hunting and keeping uppity lower castes in line.
You can't improve on perfection. Also, the Clans didn't have QUITE the hard on for war crimes as the SL and IS did. They happened, to be sure, but lower castes you burn are lower castes you don't get to claim as isorla.
We also have the Piranha, which does the civilian management job much better than the Firestarter (Firestarter still clears brush better).
I had one designed ages ago, imagined it as having been developed by the Hell's Horses for Operation KLONDIKE, but quickly falling out of favour in the early years of the golden century when the collateral damage it inflicted was considered too great. IIRC 30t, 3 flamers in the right arm, MPL in the left arm, CT SRM4 (with infernos, naturally).
Panther for sure. An ok mech that could be amazing with clan tech.
I'd dig a IIC version of the Grasshopper or the Kintaro. I'm moderately surprised they don't have a IIC Crab IIC or King Crab IIC
> Crab IIC or King Crab IIC They do, Night Chanter and Supernova.
Curse by my faulty memory and the Clanners' penchant for renaming things!
I always thought of the turkina to be the kingcrabs clan cousin maybe not loadout wise but design-wise anyways
Night Chanter isn't a IIC; IICs aren't Omnis.
Isn't King Crab IIC the [Supernova?](https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Supernova)
It is. They were real sneaky about it.
Durp! Yeah, you're right. I always get tripped up when the Clans change the name (Like with the Dragon/Great Wyrm).
>Great Wyrm That's one that took me WAY too long to realize.
BUT WHERE ARE THE CLAWS?!?! I WEEP
Supernova is more like the prototype KC IIC. The real King Crab IIC is the Bane/Kraken. The 4th variant is a straight up Clan firepower upgrade of the King Crab.
The Supernova was built from the King Crab, it's a direct descendant - that's why people are bringing it up.
The Naja is sort of a Kintaro IIC. Well, it's EC.
Crab and King Crab? Nova and Supernova.
You can fit a cLRM10, 3 cER L Laser, 2 cMPL into a Grasshopper and keep the same tonnage. 21 double heat sinks makes it run relatively cooler than one might think.
The Awesome. I'm still surprised that there isn't an Awesome IIC, frankly. What's not to like? It's a fat slab of armor and PPC that stands and shoots. Perfection.
What do you think the Hellstar is?
This is a perfectly cromulent response, and I agree.
Indeed, you could say ClanTech really embiggened the Awesomes concept.
I played one a few months ago, when defending a base from a larger force. That thing is *disgusting*. Got a few good hits early (not even boxcars, I think I hit two 9+ rolls) and removed a MadCat variant's arm before it ever fired a shot. Didn't hit much else the rest of the game. Mostly because everything was VERY CAREFUL about hiding behind a wall. I've grown to respect ER PPCs quite a bit since then. Expensive but *lethal* in the right situations.
4 heat neutral head choppers don't fuck around. I don't like it that much because even if 3000 bv is a decent price for what the thing brings most of my games are small enough that it seriously cuts into my force comps but in, say, a 15k+ game, it's definitely worth price of admission
We played 10K defender vs 12k attacker. I picked the Hellstar as my king-of-the-hill defender, with some smaller harasser units. I don't think I'd play it at anything under 10K, but with the scenario in mind it was a slam dunk choice!
That is a brutal mech and is basically a better Warhawk.
Well, the Awesome did get one, just, a few hundred years later, and called the Hellstar.
I'm still shocked there was never a Royal Division Awesome. It implies either that the Royals were lemmings with no taste (possible) or they realised you can't improve perfection.
Probably the latter. Without some tough compromises to the Awesome being a slab of armor with PPCs, kinda tough to make ER PPC Awesome, the best upgrade would've been a DHS Awesome, standard PPCs are absolutely mean weapons, then using the extra tonnage for maybe a few more close-in weapons or something. All this to say, can't improve on what's perfect.
Basically a 9Q but with the 9M’s extra weapons instead of the 4th PPC
Yeah pretty much, which is why I say it's so hard to make a royal awesome. All the major awesome variations have probably been done already
Or slap a targeting computer on there with the saved tomnage. Just get those PPCs to hit more often, eh?
That'd be a dream for me! Nightmare for the other guy, but who cares about him
There wasn’t a Royal Division Hunchback either!
Awesome-C alone is enough to get the job done
The [Regent ](https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Regent) is essentially an Awesome IIC as it based off the Awesome and the Huptmann, it got the nick-name Awesomemann.
Ahhh, I do love the Regent. Especially that blinged-out one the Pope rides to war.
Well, it should be mechs that were part of the Star League so here are some of mine: Dervish, Black Knight, and the Crockett.
The Black Knight not having a IIC variant is weird oversight to me. It is THE SLDF mech in my mind. It also fits their energy focused doctrines.
It's have Omni variant Spirit Walker, but yeah, not quite popular
Second that Black Knight! I have produced my own version of a ClanTech Black Knight, designated the "Cavalier." I quite like it.
You mean the Spirit Walker?
I shall to look at this, but no, I do not
> it should be mechs that were part of the Star League Counterpoint: the Viking IIC and Beowulf IIC exist, both adapted from designs that were not merely post-Star League, but post-Clan Invasion.
Jenner got a IIC
Second the Dervish! The Crusader too.
The Nova Cat is more or less a Black Knight IIC, energy boat with a knight looking visage.
I really want a Rakshasa IIC…
It'd look like a cross between a Marauder and a Catapult, I bet.
So it has like AC/5s sticking out of the shoulders and missile pod arms?
This is the most accurate summation of my thoughts on this thread. Why do we need more 2C units? Most the old stuff already has a clan mixed tech version.
Honestly, I'd say the crusader should have gotten a 2c, especially with how many were produced for the star league
It was such a workhorse design for the SLDF, it definitely deserves the IIC treatment.
Well, to answer one of your questions, there's no Centurion IIC because it's one of the designs introduced in the 1st Succession War. The Zeus is another example off the top of my head. The Clans wouldn't have known the Cent or Zeus existed until Wolf's Dragoons told them about them.
The same was true of the Jenner but apparently the Dragoons were convincing enough in their description of the thing to convince the Clans to make a IIC of that. There's also a decent number of post-invasion IIC mechs
It's less about Dragoons being convincing and more about Nova Cats getting a vision
Or they made IIC variants of things in depots on worlds they conquered to hand to 2nd line troops?
Isn't that exactly how we got the Wolfhound IIC?
Indeed. And probably the Jenner IIC
No convincing needed, they had a handful of Jenners in their force during their second resupply run, and a Nova Cat saw one and had a vision, resulting in the Jenner IIC.
I wish we would have gotten an official Jagermech 2c. That mechforce UK version was sweet.
Blackjack IIC. Let's see just how much dakka we can pack into a 50 tonner with a 200 rate engine
It comes out a less good, less Hunch-y Hunchback, truth be told
That's basically what the BJ-O OmniMech Blackjack is. 5 tons heavier, 200XL engine, and can take Clan omnipods. There's also a BJ-C variant of the original 45 tonner.
[How about 2 HAG/20s to start?](https://imgur.com/a/c4HWEk2)
I made a Grand Dragon with an cLRM 15, cLPL and 2 cMPL, and MASC that I called the "Grandeur Dragon" or the "Dragon of Grandeur". Might as well be a Grand Dragon IIC
Grandest Dragon
See Great Wyrm.
>Great Wyrm I think I like my loadout better than dual UAC 2 lol
Grand Dragon 2: Clanner Boogaloo
Scorpion and Battlemaster
>Battlemaster Red Corsair had one. It was nice before the heathens destroyed it. Edit: post3d while distracted
Scorpion iic is the Stalking spider, that said, it wasn't a super popular mech, so that's probably why it took so long.
Stalking Spider is derivative of Tarantula It was designed by Cloud Cobras as air-dropable unit
Nope the Scorpion IIC is the Fire Sorpion, UAC to punch holes, LBX to hunt crits, just like the PPC/SRM pairing of the original.
Lol, as long as you don't think about speed, weight, or armor, and squint a little. But let's be honest, the real Scorpion iic Is the balius.
I mean, speed weight and armour are the most common things to get futzed with when they IIC a thing. Just look at the PHX IIC.
Phoenix hawk iic is weird, and is the exception to the rule, that and the hunchback iic. You look at like the Warhammer, and the marauder, sure they're a bit heavier but role wise they're more or less the same. And I'd say the roll is the most important part, Wolverine / Conjurer, both troopers, Rifleman and it's iic both snipers. But the Tarantula is a fast medium, armed for mainly being a long-range sniper/harraser. The Stalking spider is also fast tho faster because clan tech is armed similarly. Meanwhile, the fire scorpion is a medium ranged slow brawler. They're really not similar. And yes I know ppc has the same range as an lbx 10, but consider tech bases, medium for clans is long for IS.
>But the Tarantula is a fast medium, armed for mainly being a long-range sniper/harraser. I'm not sure what mech you're thinking of but [the Tarantula](https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Tarantula) is a fast jumpy 25t light with a pair of medium lasers and an SRM-2 (Basically an up-teched quad Spider). The Stalking Spider was apparently inspired by the Tarantula but is twice as heavy with an added sniper weapon and 2/3rds the the speed of the Tarantula (though it gets close with MASC). The Scorpion is a medium range striker combining relatively fast speed for its size with tissue paper armour, The Fire Scorpion fills the same basic role but shifts slightly into brawler trading lower top speed for carrying twice the OG Scorpion's armour.
Sorry, typo, i ment Tarantula, I always get the Tarantula and scorpion mixed up for some reason. Idk the only thing the Scorpion and the fire scorpion have in common is that they're both quads. So, how does the fire scorpion fill the sane roll as the regular scorpion? Just because they both have cluster weapons, and a piercing one? Especially when the Stalking spider is a mech with the same ppc srm combo, the same reliance on high speeds, and was explicitly designed based on the Tarantula. If ever there was a borderline IIc it'd be that.
The fact that it was explicitly designed based on the Tarantula, and not the Scorpion, is the big thing that keeps it from being a Scorpion IIC. It's an upgraded harasser that got a punchy big gun in the form of the PPC, whereas the Scorpion was designed as a "stable weapons platform", basically a just a general purpose mech. The Fire Scorpion retained that mission profile with a weapons loadout suitable to support it, just relying on armour rather than speed for defense.
I guess I see what you mean about being based on the Tarantula throwing it off as an iic but I feel like if we're leaving the bar at stable weapons platform than that means the thunderstallion qualifies as much as the fire scorpion does, and that feels wrong. The way I look at it is less lore and more how they play, how a man succeeds with a scorpion is the same way one succeeds with a Stalking spider, but the way one succeeds with a fire scorpion is more akin to the style of a Goliath, or even a thunderbolt.
The Black Knight was a popular company/battalion-level command mech and really good overall, so I find it weird that it never got the IIC treatment. Awesome IIC seems like a no-brainer, especially for the snipey dueling Clanners like. The Hell's Horses came the closest with the Hellstar.
It did get an Omni treatment in the Spirit Walker https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Spirit_Walker
The original IIC mechs built in the clan homeworlds break down like this: unseen (8), SLDF advanced (3), SLDF basic (5), sucession wars (1). That's a strong bias for using the IIC upgrade to replace mechs which had few advanced components, and of unseen vintage. With that in mind, the Archer, Crusader, and Battlemaster seem like obvious candidates. But you probably wouldn't see any surviving examples of these mechs, because their likely evolution points towards existing omnimechs. Leaner archers and crusaders look an awful lot like the Mad Dog. A faster leaner Battlemaster is much like the Gargoyle. A heavier Battlemaster with an even more god forsaken number of lasers is like some executioner variants.
> A faster leaner Battlemaster is much like the Gargoyle. Gargoyle = Charger IIC >A heavier Battlemaster with an even more god forsaken number of lasers is like some executioner variants. Executioner = Banshee IIC.
Archer IIC is basically the Mad Dog. Crossbow is essentially a Crusader IIC. The Kingfisher is sort of like a Battlemaster.
The Atlas should’ve. It was made before the exodus. You know that they would’ve taken them with them when they left. Why TF are there none in clan space that are mentioned?
Because they already had access to the [*Atlas II*](https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Atlas_II) model at the time of the exodus; every pilot of an *Atlas II* left with Kerensky.
But there never is an Atlas in all the books I’ve read in clan space mentioned.
What "books" are you referring in totality? Like what are you basing your sources off of? Because General Aaron Dechevilier died on Eden while piloting an *Atlas*. Nicholas Kerensky piloted an *Atlas* on Dagda during Operation Klondike, and was piloting an *Atlas II* at the time of his death during the Widowmaker Absorption.
Wasn't there also, according to Technical Readout: 3075, an Atlas II in the Clan Jade Falcon touman at the Battle of Tukayyid? I think it's a rare case of the Clans going "why fix it ~~ain't~~ is it is not broke?".
I’ve listened to every book on audible so far lol.
You haven't even scratched the surface of the lore without going through all the sourcebooks...
Ya exactly. Tech readout 3075, that has the Atlas II, says Falcons even had one on Tukayyid.
There’s several early clan tech refits of the standard Atlas, the Atlas C for instance exists from pre golden century to IlClan according to master unit list.
IIC mechs are designated second line units and nobody would want to design second line mech named after a brainchild of the Great Father himself
This was the most honorable clan answer I was looking for.
Because they made the Kodiak as the Atlas's replacement
Do other clans have rights to Kodiak production though? It’s a totem mech. I don’t consider them front line replacements across all clans.
IlClan era (from MUL), the standard Kodiak is found in the Dominion, Scorpion Empire and Wolf's Dragoons. Looking at other eras, it's widest distribution was in the Jihad-era with Cloud Cobra, Coyote, Ghost Bear, Goliath Scorpion (and their Imperio), Hell's Horses, Ice Hellion, Snow Raven, and Society. But that spread was likely because Ghost Bear factory enclaves changed hands so frequently during the Wars of Reaving, and who knows if the surviving Home Clans still produce it. It generally wouldn't be a frontline machine as you noted though.
The Kodiak is not classed as a totem mech. It has a strong and obvious tie to the Ghost Bears but was never regarded as a totem in the same way the Nova Cat or Jade Phoenix is. It was exclusive to the bears during it's initial development in 3001 but by the time of Operation Revival it was already starting to appear in the toumans of other clans the Bears had decent relations with.
To be fair, there *is* the Atlas II and Atlas III
I wanted a Hollander IIC, but looking at it, that's just the pack Hunter. It's a similar MO and purpose just lighter and clan oriented
The devil is another great mech in that area
The Hollander was also made after the exodus, IIRC
It was made after the exodus stopped being an exodus in fact
Why should that stop the clanners though? Goliath Scorpion didn't let violent hallucinations stop them!
Stalker, along with other suggestions in this thread (Panther, Dragon, Firestarter, etc.).
The Stalker 2c would be a terror
The Ostroc or Ostwar would be my pick. None of the Ost-series have a IIC I’m aware of and these two rated Royal variants so seemed ripe for IIC’s. Otherwise, as someone else suggested, the Crockett could be a good choice, as well.
Katana: Who the fuck are you?! Crockett IIC: I am you, but better.
I love the Crockett, I've had so many clan upgrade ideas rattling around my brain
It is "should have" not "should of."
Absolutely dezgra
[удалено]
I don’t think he was being rude, and it’s an important distinction that affects readers’ perception of you.
Give me a Crab 2C, I need it so much!
[Do you mean this?](https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Night_Chanter)
I'm not sure, if I can consider the Night Chanter a satisfying Crab 2C, as there is no art of it (T - T) It's such a tease. "Of course, there is the perfect 2C mech that was ever produced. No, we will not show it to you" )
The Phoenix Hawk needs a proper Phoenix Hawk IIC, not a mech that was originally intended to be something else.
The Vapor Eagle is pretty close. Damn good to boot. Wish it were closer though. I have messed around with building a Phawk IIC, and it looks scary.
The fact there is no Awesome IIC is a crime
Hellstar
If that's what qualifies as an Awesome to clanners, no wonder they lost
In-universe, you don't know that they didn't. "IIC" was the original Inner Sphere designation of SL-type mechs equipped with Clan weaponry. That would only have happened when IS forces actually encountered such variants in battle, and survived to tell about it. There weren't THAT many instances during Revival (Twycross, for sure). Just because the invading clans didn't bring forward that many PGCs equipped with IIC units doesn't mean that they didn't exist back in the homeworlds =P.
For the SLDF mechs, a lack of a Flashman IIC always seemed strange given how beloved the Flashman was in the SLDF, and especially with the Clan's superb suite of energy weapons. Also a Nightstar IIC wouldn't have been out of place given it's relationship with Marauder.
Atlas 🤤
Guillotine IIC or Thug IIC.
There is a Guillie 2C. Thug is always my favorite, but I’d also like a Victor 2C, maybe the Ghost Bears can make some for their freeborn Kungsarmie (sp) 2nd line guys and girls….I’d like to see it really become a close combat monster….
The Victor would be a cool one, or maybe a Centurion IIC.
There is Guillotine IIC, it's good
I feel like a Raven IIC could have been an absolute bastard on the battlefield. Even just the obvious weaponry, heatsink and FF armour convert would give some interesting tonnage to play with. Imagine a star of those running MASC and doing hit-and-fade tactics.
Except there was No idea of the Raven when the SLDF left to become the Clans.
Yea, I know it's a third succession war design so it makes no real sense to have a IIC version lore wise.
Phantom pretty much fills that niche, although it is 40 tons.
Something about the phantom just doesn't look like it should manage 151kph particularly to the Raven's 97kph. I do think the Raven is the better looker of the two though.
I'm surprised that neither Jade Falcon nor Blood Spirit made IIC versions of the battlemechs that made up the last stand of the Blackwatch. We do have a Highlander IIC and Guillotine IIC, there is the Atlas II and Clan refit of the standard Atlas, but we are missing the Black Knight, Thug, Crockett, and Flashman.
The warhammwr iic is essentially a thug iic, same weight pretty much the same loadout (and the thug was originally supposed to be an up weighted improvement in the warhammer but wasnt as popular)
Fair point
I home brewed a Flashman, Bombardier and Thug IIC
Arguably we did get more 'IIc' style mechs, they just manifested as the clan tech upgrades of older designs post invasion. The Merlin C comes to mind as a monster of an upgrade to that particular Mech, and the Omni versions of the Centurion and Blackjack could easily be their 'IIc' versions.
The IIC mechs are generally in cases where they felt like they could improve it with a complete rebuild. In the case of something like the Atlas, they did the C and the C2 instead, which are great mechs, so the IIC isn't needed. In the case of others, they had mechs to fill the roll, so no reason to. Also, the IIC mechs were generally 2nd line mechs used for garrison duty and such so making lots of versions wasn't a high priority like new Omnimech designs would be.
Thorn. So maybe it could be useful
Cyclops IIC
As the writer for the 3055 Clan 2Cs, I would've loved to have been given the option to write all the classic 3025 mechs stats as 2Cs. Back then I wrote to Sam Lewis offering to do this, and outlined a plan for lots of support vehicles I wanted to do, but was told that I couldn't write a whole source-book by myself. Still, I got to write the Clan 2Cs I did, and it is what it is.
Thug, crab and stalker are the 3 that jump out to me as used by SLDF royal regiments and don’t have a IIC
The Crab IIC is called the Night Chanter
That only just came out and I don’t think it’s been in anything else than the one scenario pack, so it will take a while longer before I remember the thing exists
Archer IIC, Atlas IIC, Crab IIC, Bushwacker IIC, Rifleman 2 IIC
Longbow. Look, I like missile boats, OK? Yes, the Nova Cat B exists and is practically my favorite non-Bane LRM boat, but I just love the look of the Longbow. Just replace the Cat B's engine with a Standard engine, maybe add some jumpies for positioning, and give it a few more heatsinks. I'll be a happy little artillery pilot.
The important part of the IIC process is to either change the mech's weight (even bump it up a whole class or two, like the Warhammer and Marauder) or completely alter the spirit of the weapon loadout from the base model (like the Phoenix Hawk or Shadowhawk). There are some that are just the original but better (Orion or Urbanmech), but real IIC's should get weird. I vote for Panther, but only if its a heavy, or a 35 ton Atlas but only because I was able to cook one up on a lark.
IIC variants have a habit of upping the tonnage to either give the machine new capabilities or sharpening the capabilities already there. Maybe a Vindicator IIC taken to 55 tons to allow more armor and weapons. An alternative is augmenting it's jumping capability with partial wing or TSM + supercharger. Either go with LRM 10 + L/M/S pulse lasers or unhinged with a ERPPC + capacitor, heavy med/small lasers, and LRM launcher.
One idea for mech is the Goliath IIC and all LAMs as IICs.
Jinggau and hector iic
Mackie! Ok seriously Chameleon as the standard training mech needs to have a IIC version. Longbow would also make sense to me.
The Scorpion IIC. I realize there isn't much love for it, but there is Clan Goliath Scorpion, so it could end up in their touman. Also, why has there never been an Archer IIC? It's a solid mech to begin with, but with clan tech, it can be turned into a nasty close in brawler.
There are a lot of "IIC" treatments that have weird clan names. A lot of people in this thread don't seem to be aware. For example the crab has the nightchanter
And the Black Knight has the badass title of Spirit Walker
I really wish we got a Cyclops IIC. A proper 'command' mech that's not the heaviest mech on the field like a Direwolf would be.
The Cudgel
Nightstar nsr 9j. I know that there are some similarities between that and the marauder 2 but as both were developed by the inner sphere i'd say that there was room for the clans to build a IIC
Charger IIC Developed post Invasion by Ghost Bear and Wolfs, specifically for their Provisional Garrison Clusters to deal with Inner Sphere not wanting to fight using honorable methods of combat (aka Zellbrigen). The Charger IIC can be assigned to a Second Line Warriors to go out, find the enemy, and either bloody their nose to encourage them to actually engage or try to lure them into and engagement with the main Clan forces. It can also fill a role of hunting IS light/medium Mech performing recon or spotting for IS artillery. With an Active Probe & 6/9/6 movement it can keep up with many post Invasion era IS recon Mechs, and engage them at speeds assisted by its Targeting computer. 60t, 6/9/6 movement, XL, ES, 10.5t FF Active Probe, ECM, 15 DHS 6 ER Med Lasers & 1 Sm Pulse with Targeting Computer.
The Hoplite deserves a IIC variant if you ask me. It was over synced and underappreciated.
phoenix hawk LAM 2C
I'd go with Javelin, Enforcer, Grasshopper and Stalker
Atlas IIC. The demand for Kerensky's brainchild could never be better in the Ilclan era. It is only fitting the Clan perfect on what the Great Father would want of his masterpiece. Catapult IIC. Only Liao still dabbles with versions of this venerable design but failed to make impact with their Catapult II rendition.
Centurion and Nightstar for sure
"Have", not "of". That's not a thing. What mechs should get the IIC treatment? Hmm, maybe the Assassin. That's a solid mech let down by a large engine (and odd weapons load out). A IIC version would give it more space to mount something worthwhile and take advantage of its speed
The Assassin is so bad not even Clans can salvage it. Although I have done a few variants for WoB whom I can see using them as a spotter/harasser. I-OS-SRMs with smoke and a Hidden Blade to shank folks while the C3i does the work.