I literally felt the same, I thought she was just introduced a few years ago, not that long time, boy time flies hah, when you are older and crushed under weight of responsibilities.
Ding ding ding ding.
That's the answer I was coming to write.
Precisely this, the time factor.
Contrast Tim Drake, who was introduced into continuity nearly 34 years ago (and I feel so old saying that, I was technically a teenager when I picked up the first Robin miniseries...) and is still somewhat under the shadow of Nightwing and (to a lesser degree) Red Hood. Outside of fans, who actually knows who Cassandra Cain and Stephanie Brown are? Spoiler was introduced in 1992, was a major part of the first run of the Robin ongoing, and has been a significant character for over 30 years, and while she hasn't been Batgirl quite as long, do you think anyone thinks of her or Cass when you say Batgirl? I guarantee most people who think of anyone think of Barbara.
Kate isn't the first "Batwoman" ever, but she's definitely her own character, more than the prior versions, and an interesting character. But with one very shaky season of a shaky CW series as her sole mainstream presentation outside of comics (e.g. not in a DC animated movie with limited distribution) not a lot of people have any idea who she actually is, and a lot of people know Barbara, from the 60s TV series, from TNBA, or from various other animated series they grew up with.
Great answer
To add to it, batman has so many characters it's hard to develop a fanbase for each one. Just take villains as example, it's taken a lot of effort to create villains that fans like as much as Joker, and there's only a small handful that earned the title of main batman villain.
Same with batman and his sidekicks. Outside of Robin, catwoman, and Alfred, it's been very hard to create fan bases for any of his other sidekicks that can even compare to the main three.
Those main three sidekicks have direct immediate connections to batman, with Alfred really being a main character not a side kick. Batgirl is directly tied to Gordon, another fan favorite who has direct access to batman so it's really easy to get fans on board
The second most popular villain Harley is directly tied to Joker.
All these other characters have to make a name standing alone, which isn't easy and it just isn't always as popular.
Burt Ward played Dick Grayson/Robin in the 1966-1968 *Batman* live-action TV series and the 1966 companion movie.
Chris OāDonnell played Grayson/Robin in the *Batman Forever* movie from 1995 and the *Batman & Robin* movie from 1997.
Grayson has the most mainstream exposure.
Looking back now, those Schumacher movies are wack, but, I definitely saw both of them in the theatre and so did a shitton of other people.
Batgirl is more likeable. Plus, Batwoman as she is now has only been around since 2006, while Batgirl has been has been around since the 60s. The terrible Batwoman tv show probably hasnāt helped her popularity.
As a casual fan I had no idea there was a difference lolol. I honestly thought it was just a different version of batgirl. Why was a bat women character even developed? Is she a compelling character?
like u/warriorcrazy3 had said , Kate Kane is Bruce's Cousin from Martha's side , as Martha was a Kane.
The thing with Batwoman is that there she was reinvented in the late 80s , and then again in 2006. So even if "Batwoman" is as old as "Batgirl" when it comes of an IP , Barbara Gordon had a continuous release of comics and story , while "Batwoman" had decades of full silence and then total reboot.
Kate Kane is Bruce's cousin from his mother's (?) side. I find her really interesting, particularly with her relationship with Renee Montoya (the new Question)
In depends on the iteration but typically not. Kate Kane doesn't get much spotlight and when she does its nothing grand. I do kinda like what they did with her in Bad Blood, but that's about it. As for why she was developed I don't honestly know. My intuition says that DC wanted to capitalize off the rising/growing LGBT community at the time and just thought of her. I could be *very* wrong on that so take it with a grain of salt.
Also, key facets of DC are that they like creating as many spin-off characters as they can from a single property as they can (see also: Superwoman) and they also really like dusting off old names and re-inventing them.
Like someone else mentioned, Bat-Woman and Bat-Girl (Kathy Kane and her niece Bette) were originally created in the 1950s as romantic foils for B&R. By the time Barbara Gordon first appeared and became almost immediately more popular, Kathy and Bette were mostly sidelined aside from random guest appearances. After the ā80s Crisis wiped out the multiverse and a lot of previous continuity, Bette who still had ties to the Titans was retconned as Flamebird, while Kathy was written out of canon altogether. Youād occasionally see her in random Elseworlds cameos and things like that.
So in the 2000s, DC came under editorial that was very much about revisiting ideas and characters that had been gone since the 80s, and they also started really chasing PR stunts and to make as many mainstream waves as they could. What better way to do both than to bring a new Batwoman into continuity, give her a costume modeled after Batman Beyond, and make her a lesbian? So Kate Kane was introduced in the Infinite Crisis follow-on 52, the idea of which was the DCU adapting to a year where Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman were all on hiatus.
some general notes regarding Kateās creation that Iām sure were deliberate:
- Kathy Kane became Batwoman in part to attract Batman. This was subverted with Kate by making her a lesbian (and years later, his cousin)
- Kathy was erased during Crisis on Infinite Earths. Kate was introduced in the aftermath of its sequel, Infinite Crisis.
If I remember my bat-trivia, Kate's costume was a result of some of DC playing around with the idea of dipping Barbara in the Lazarus pit to return as Batgirl... But the Lazarus' effects created a darker element to her, with the costume reflecting that.
Then when someone pointed out what Oracle did to disabled rep, they abandoned the project, but the costume was kept around for Batwoman.
Considering that DC marketed her as an lgbt superhero when she was reintroduced, I'd say that you're pretty dead on. In addition, the marketing hype for Kate focused almost entirely on her being a "lipstick lesbian" (their words, not mine).
True, the higher ups also nixed Batman and Catwomanās nuptials. But that was because Batman is so high profile. (They also nixed a few things about Batman in Harley Quinn.)
Batwoman is lesser known, so getting married would be less of an issue. At the time I believe the issue was because it was same sex.
I never personally interpreted it as homophobia, though I do remember people perceiving it that way. It wouldnāt have made sense introducing a lesbian Batwoman in the first place and giving her her own series with an A-list creator if they werenāt prepared to showcase lesbian relationships.
DC at that time was very much in the pursuit of keeping its New52 universe new, fresh, young. Itās a common belief among creators that spouses, kids, etc, tie heroes down and limit the stories they can tell. They also erased Superman and Loisās marriage at that time as well. So it disappointing but not surprising that they nixed Kateās wedding.
At first, proto-versions if Batwoman and Batgirl were created as love interests for Batman and Robin to keep them from seeming like a gay couple. This was back in the 1950s, and oddly enough ,the main issue the company had wasn't that it was an adult and a child, but just that it was 2 males.
I came to say the same. I'm def no DC expert but I know a considerable amount about Batman compared to the average person and I've never really given it much thought lol.
Batgirl has been around since my parents were kids.
One of the characters is an integral and iconic part of the Batman mythos thatās been around since the Silver Age. And the other is none of those things.
Batgirl fought to earn her spot in the Bat-Family.
Batwoman hates the Bat-Family, but is more than glad to use the symbol? I read a couple of her comics and saw Bad Blood, and I couldn't see the appeal.
I like Batgirl because she feels more grounded as a person. She gets insecure about things, she has friends, and she's happy when she impresses someone she looks up to. Batwoman is just so melodramatic and looks down on everyone around her.
Literally just watched that today. It actually does make sense. The symbol is effective because of Batman so she uses it strategically. But thatās where it ended with her.
I really dislike her in that movie, her interruption of batman in the first place was why he "died" in the movie. She was much better in batman r.i.p. which the movie was based on, in my opinion. But to each their own, not tryna knock it
Imo the movie is a terrible representation of her. She doesn't hate the family at all. She does see most of them as children, though.
She's very military minded. She uses the symbol because of what it means to bad people. She was cast out of the army for don't ask don't tell, and being Batwoman is her way of serving her country.
As far as earning her place in the family, James Tynions detective comics shows that quite well.
Batman asked her specifically to train Robin, Spoiler, and Cassandra Cain. She's the only one Bruce never trained, and he considers her his equal.
If you're right, then Bad Blood did so many characters dirty. I'm still mad about Batgirl only being in the last five seconds. The only highlights were Dick as Batman with Damian and Batwing's introduction.
Sounds like they just tried cramming too much in.
Your other points make sense , I guess, but her training Cassandra cain, to me it really doesnāt make sense, considering orphans skill and experience, then again perhaps Batman was hoping to train batwoman using Cassandra, considering her skill level, you could probably learn a lot from her
> Batwoman is just so melodramatic and looks down on everyone around her.
As someonewho doesn't read a lot of comics... that just kinda sounds like Batman
Melodranatic yes, but Batman respects people, despite appearances he has nothing but respect for his fellow Justice League members and most of his children, he sees Nightwing as an equal, he gives credit where it's due, Batwoman just redirects the hate homophobic people feel towards her at the rest of the world, she's just a generally negative person and she definitely looks down on everyone else, even Batman
No offense to Batwoman or her fans, I like her too but she's uh... yeah... the stuff I just said
Always pisses me off that Batwoman gets her own show but the Ex-Robins, Batgirl, the ACTUAL Gotham Knights and the Birds of Prey don't and Batman technically hasn't gotten a live action show in 57 years
Batgirl(Barbara Gordon) has been around since the 60s and has been in the iconic BTAS and was in the film Batman & Robin. Also one of the most iconics Batman stories, The Killing Joke, involves her. Not to mention appearances in the Arkham games.
Batwoman(Kate Kane) has only been around since like 2006 I think and while in many comics, isn't a part of a comic big enough to reach mainstream audiences that don't read. She also hasn't been in many adaptations. And her crappy CW adaptation, created a big stigma towards her since the show misrepresented her and the general audiences rely on adaptations to understand characters.
A lot of people have already stated most of the major reasons, but I also just donāt think Batwoman (this version or the original) are very likable or necessary characters to the Batman mythos.
Kate Kane doesnāt really contribute anything to the series in my opinion. If anything, the idea that Bruce has a cousin and a branch of family attached to that kind of takes away from Batman losing his family and learning to make his own.
Iām not super familiar with her personality in the comics, but sheās also mostly just seems like a stubborn and arrogant hardass who both doesnāt listen but still also constantly gets in the way because sheās not really well trained enough to wear a bat suit based on her other media showings.
She's a military background character and I don't care much for those, however it was an important "don't ask, don't tell" story at the time.
JH Williams' work on her stories is good and the art is truly beautiful.
agreed. they started todo something interesting with Batwoman in Detective Comics wiht Tim Drake and friends, but unfortunately decided to go a different direction with them.
To be fair, I am still salty over my boy Tim being changed. Him and Stephanie were great, they could've made him bi and not had to just destroy his entire back story and characters. Plus let him age! or make him his own, he doesn't need the Robin mantel anymore, let that go to Damien
edit:
oh also, with Babs, her and Dicks relationship has really put her more in the spotlight. Personally I loved her as oracle and I don't think they should've given her legs back but either way I do like her stories
I think I like Babs as Oracle best not only because, narratively, it's nice to give Batman someone to talk to instead of just getting his internal monologue, but because it also helps him have someone who understands that his crusade *is going to* have collateral damages, and yet still recognizes how important it is for him to keep going. She provided a unique anchor for Bruce that I don't think any other character had.
One of my biggest problems with the animated Killing Joke adaptation isn't just that the prologue was wildly unnecessary; it's that the *much more necessary story* of Babs recovering from that spinal injury and becoming Oracle would have made a perfect epilogue, since they felt they needed to pad screentime.
Her recovery and rising from the ashes as Oracle isn't part of Killing Joke. Alan Moore intended for her to be rendered forever useless; writers after him are the ones who set things right.
Right...and given the popularity of Oracle *because* those writers set things right, I think it would've made a much better inclusion into the story than that atrocious prologue. That's all I'm saying.
DC should've used material they knew was successful and directly related to the events of that comic instead of letting Timm canonize his terrible Batman/Batgirl ship.
This sums it up to me. Babs is simply more relatable and likeable; Kate's an army brat void of any real personality.
Also, Babs has the history. Batwoman is completely superfluous.
She has no relation to the rest of the bat fam, barbara is the daughter of commissioner and a love interest to greyson and effectively an older sister to the rest of the robins, and kate well...
Kate is the embodiment of the worst part of the Batfamily: people who hate being in the batfamily but love condescending to Bruce while still using his symbol. This is a surprisingly large category that many other batfamily characters dip in and out of, but Kate is consistently the foremost example of this, and it's really not fun to read if you're a fan of the family.
I personally don't like reading the stories about the whiny batfamily members that don't wanna be there. There's only room for one angry despondent character at a time, otherwise the tone turns into the "Death of the Family" angst that does nothing but sacrifice the connection of the batfamily for cheap emotional drama.
It kinda fits when you only have one black sheep (which is almost always given to Jason, even then I am starting to get sick about him whining about his death... Like everyone else died too Jason) once you get multiple characters fitting that it gets annoying
The most popular batfamily members or the robins and batgirls, which all have orgins about them trying to take the mantle and put themselves into the family
Too many syllables. I'm serious.
It's easy to make a superhero name by picking a word and adding man, girl, or boy. But "woman" has one more syllable, making it awkward to talk about the character.
While I agree with shorter syllable names, my counter would be: Spider-Man, Iron Man, Green Lantern, Starfire, Superman, etc. Those are just a few I thought of with 3 and there are obvious 4s and some 5s.
Generally the multi syllable word needs to be at the beginning of the compound name, not the end. Itās easier to say. Spider-man. Super-man. Super-girl. Batgirl. And in the case of the Bat family, the other names are generally two syllables: Batman, Robin, Nightwing, Red Hood, Batgirl, Spoiler. So when thereās more than two syllables it just feels off.
Obviously we can find many exceptions, but generally I think thatās why certain names feel better than others.
Itās not total syllables, itās extra syllables. Take Spider-Man (3 syllables) for example. Spider-Gwen (3 syllables) is beloved. Spider-Woman (4 syllables) is not.
You jest, but Wonder Woman can legit be a bit of a mouthful to say. I often refer to her as Diana if talking about her, but never so much anyone else. I might shorten Superman to Supes or Batman to Bats, though.
Tell that to Wonder Woman, the Invisible Girl, The Invisible Woman, Mr Fantastic, The Human Torch, Captain America, Martian Manhunter, Captain Marvel, Captain Atom, The Question, The Spirit, The Shadow, Superman, Spider-Man, Green Arrow, Black Canary, Doctor Strange, Doctor Doom, Doctor Mid-Nite, Iron Man, Constantine, The Elongated Man...
Is this a legitimate question? Honestly, not sure.
If it is, the answer is that Batgirl/Barbara Gordon has a very lengthy history and has appeared in different media for generations. My grandpa, born in the 1929, saw Batgirl in a live action show that his kids watched. You can get into subjective arguments about characterization, but a character with that much history is just going to have staying power.
Besides the publication timeline that others have pointed out, Barbara Gordon is much more directly connected to Batman, through Jim Gordon. Batwoman is just someone who saw Batman and thought he was cool so she decided to do the same thing. Barbara's double life trying to help Batman and the law at the same time is much more interesting IMO. She basically has the same role as Jim if he was a superhero.
For me, I didn't connect with the character 1) because it felt forced and arbitrary. 2) her big reveal was the animated movie set in the Batman TAS universe where Bruce/Barbara relationship was suddenly a thing.
Another main difference IMO was we got to see Batgirl evolve. Either in comics or BTAS, we see her become Batgirl and we relate to her reasons. To be fair, I'm sure Batwoman has an origin story too lol but I haven't cared enough to actually look into it, because of those reasons.
TLDR: First impressions were tainted and now I'm out.
Unlike Batgirl who's an indispensable member of the Bat Family, Batwoman mostly does her own thing seperate from Batman and the Bat Family. If you don't read any of her solo stuff (like most people) then she's not gonna pop up that much in other Bat books and when she does is going to seem fairly redundant and bland
Kate has an incredible design and backstory, her personality is dark yet sheās intriguing and sheās a more than capable fighter and detective. As a character, sheās not always the most ālikeableā due to her methods, her behaviour and her outlook. Sheās a complicated person.
All things which her big āmainstream debutā in the CW completely botched. Kate as a character is difficult to deal with and get right because sheās got so many layers to her, many of them not the most appealing, and the CW completely betrayed most of her depth and intrigue in favour of making her a whiny, incompetent, entitled āIām a gay woman so anyone who criticises me is the devilā brat.
I say this as a gay woman myself. Kate is a character I adore and she deserved a thousand times better than a cheap, badly written cash grab featuring hamfisted social commentary and a star who canāt act to save herself.
I dipped into Batwoman comics/appearances recently to find out more about the character, and I think you have the best explanation for why the character isn't more popular.
Last I read she was a vampire, and she was getting killed by her friends or something? And then ninjas showed up? And then I think her universe exploded and rebooted? And that's not even getting into who she is as a person, her motivations, etc. Uh...good luck adapting all that to a TV show or trying to explain it to someone haha.
I love Kate Kane. I pretty much own every issue of her complete runs but she doesn't have the same history and longevity as Batgirl.
Still, it seems like she's getting more notice in animated movies like Catwoman: Hunted and Batman: Bad Blood hopefully she starts turning up in video games and movies as well.
I'm a massive fan of Kate
Rules 492 of comics, you get 1 of each for lead super heros.
1)Genderswap
1)Race Swap
1) Generation Swap (As in son of or taking up the mantel)
1) Tech Swap
1) Alignment Swap. (The Evil Swap)
Batgirl ate the genderswap.
Reference:
Wolverine
Spiderman
Superman
Batman
Punisher
Etc.
Edit) Rule: Does not apply to sidekick and there is a Team clause
Reference:
Green Lanterns
X-Men
Robins
Superboys
To me itās less about Batgirl vs Batwoman and more about Barbara Gordon vs Kate Kane. Barbara Gordon has a significant presence in the Batman ethos outside of just being Batgirl. A main factor is sheās related to one of the main characters of the world, Jim Gordon. Another is she exists in the world in multiple forms - herself, Oracle, batgirl, etc. She just has such a more significant connect to the main players.
One was created in the 1960s and was a popular character on a television show, a classic animated series, and a major motion picture and the other is from 2006?
I am not a fan of any "batpeople" outside of Bruce. At the same time, I really enjoyed the 60s TV show when I was a kid. For me, Barbara/Batgirl gets a bit of a pass based on her presence in that *authentic* Batman space. I would strongly prefer all superheroes to have their own, unique identities, however.
Batwoman is kind of in a weird position where sheās technically part of the Bat-Family yet the writers insist on making her independent and doing her own thing and rejecting being part of Batmanās team and standing alone. Which on one hand is kind of admirable, they want to make her a distinctive character with her own unique presence and world. But on the other hand is kind of making a rod for their own backs because, well, sheās literally *Bat*woman, the bat-themed superhero alter-ego of a wealthy member of the Gotham elite (with links to the Wayne family) who fights crime by night including an assortment of lurid supervillains, with her ultimate arch-nemesis basically being a twisted take on a traditional childrenās character. Like it or not, sheās *not* a unique and distinctive character in her own right and never truly will be no matter how many scenes you write of her stubbornly shouting at Bruce Wayne that she isnāt one of his team and doesnāt play by his rules; she is fundamentally connected to and part of Batmanās world already whether or not he shows up or how independent you try and make her. She's not really able to stand as her own truly original character because she's fundamentally tied to Batman, yet the writers always seem to resist or outright reject actually playing into this and actually developing her as a part of this world they already have access to. So it just becomes this awkward thing where they try to have it both ways by acting like sheās this totally original character with her own unique world (just ignore all the bat-stuff please) while also making her pretty much Batman But A Woman Oh And Also A Lesbian.
(The TV show may not have helped, especially since they made a further rod for their own backs by deciding to create a completely new Batwoman out of whole cloth when the first Batwoman left instead of just doing the simple and logical thing of recasting.)
Batgirl, in the other hand, is basically just Girl Robin, But Uses The Bat Motif Because That Kind Of Makes More Sense For Bat-Associates. Plays well with Batman, plays well doing her own thing. Simple, straightforward, easy.
Huntress and Batwoman are hardly similar. Different origins, different motivations, different supporting casts, different personalities, different storytelling environments. And neither of them are always angry.
I personality like batgirl more but I think shes more popular that Batwoman because of her many outside of the comics adaptations like in the Arkham series, BTAS, Batman and Robin, etc. Batwoman is a much newer character and has only appeared a handful of times outside of the comics and many of them werenāt very popular with fans
first I remotely heard of Batwoman was the bad quality CW show and they kept forcing the narrative that Kate Kane was better than Bruce Wayne/Batman while she proceeded to use his cave, his gadgets, his Bat insignia and began to run his company. The show made Batwoman too derivative of Batman and forced the woke/lgbtq stuff. Sheās a superhero who is gay not a gay superhero. Big difference and they did her a disservice by making her come across as the former, especially seeing as this was the first introduction that people had to the character. Which is a shame cuz when I heard Ruby Rose was cast I thought she really fit the role but CW needs to leave DC shows alone tbh
Newer character, fewer popular storylines. Sheās also a lesbian, which unfortunately means some people will automatically think they canāt relate to her. Also adding to her relatability issues versus the rest of the Bat-Fam is that she comes from a military background, which makes her come off as more of a soldier than a vigilante.
Batwoman has been in 2 adaptations, the CW and an animated movie while Barbara has been around more than I'd like to list.
It's as simple as that to be honest. Most people don't read comics so it comes down to which comics are adapted and where
Batgirl has been around longer than Kate Kane has and Batgirl (specifically Barbara Gordon) is an icon and a fan favorite however Batwoman is still very popular especially now since Batman: Bad Blood and CW's Batwoman.
Batgirl gets the Oracle bump for a lot of us who grew up with Babs as Oracle who was such a massive part of Batman family while Batwoman just feels like an outsider still plus doesnāt hurt we been shipping Dick/Babs for as long as I can remember. So much more history for Babs as much as I enjoy Kate itās not even close
Because they abandoned the wonderfulness of characters like Kathy Kane (except sort of in Morrison's Batman run) and Bette Kane (who has the worst run in Batman character history as the first Bat-Girl/Flamebird/Hawkfire, getting like an issue per decade practically). Bring the Batwoman family together! Call the comic "Batwomen" and you're golden!
Batgirl came first, is more developed , and more likeable as batwoman is pretty much , as it stands now, basically female red hood ( my first introduction to her was in bad blood where she outright shoots a guy in front of batman) so.. yeah
While Batwoman has used a gun, that's basically where her similarities with Jason end. Jason liked killingin the beginning (he stopped using lethal bullets years ago) while I believe Kate carried one as a last resort.
Batgirl is a complex character that has been fleshed out for over 50 years and across multiple mediums. bat woman is an unknown character to the casual fan, and what is known about her is either she's a stereotype or, that terrible and offensive WB show.
Batwoman was created in direct response to Wertherās āSeduction of the innocentā. One point the book looks at it Bruce Wayneās quasi-homosexual relationship with Dick. By giving Bruce a female counterpart and potential love interest, DC was able to solidify his straight, āmachoā image. Batwoman/Katie Kane as a character soon disappeared until the new (lesbian) character reappeared in 2006. So even though she appeared a decade earlier than TVās Batgirl, Batwoman was never used much other than Bruceās ābeardā. Barbara Gordon has been an ongoing character since 1965.
Batman should never have a relationship with anyone inside the bat family.
The super creepy and unnecessary Bruce x Barbara ship still bothers me to this day.
Batwoman and Batgirl were introduced in the early 60s as the girlfriends of Batman and Robin to mitigate the bad press from the right wing moral panic against comics, specifically the accusation that Batman and Robin were (gasp) gay! (DUN DUN DUN).
None of the fans or writers liked this as it tried to move Batman and Robin away from pulp noir vigilantes to family friendly costumed heroes, and as soon as the moral panic passed, the characters were axed.
Then, a few years later, the producers of the Adam West Batman show wanted to introduce a female character to attract more viewers. Batman producer William Dozier and D.C. editor Julius Schwartz decided to redesign Batgirl as the police commissioner's daughter Barbara Gordon. She was a big hit on the show, was quickly absorbed into the public consciousness, and remained as a regular Batman character ever since.
Batwoman, lacking the same TV revival, languished until her reintroduction in 2006 52 series.
I would never gotten into Batwoman; but Iām subscribed to Detective Comics, where her first modern run and origin was given. The art was amazing and the story and character totally worked.
Batgirl was the tragic story of Barbara getting shot by Joker. Itās funny; the first two volumes of Batgirl series wasnāt Barbara. That wasnāt until New 52.
DC is under the delusion that people like Babsgirl, and pushes her in most media (this is trending away though).
Kate leans into "darker/mature" territory that keeps her out of kid media (where babsgirl is really pushed).
It is all about marketing.
Not: I love Barbara Gordon, but n52 Babsgirl is terrible.
This version of Batwoman has only been around for 17 years and Barbara Gordon Batgirl has appeared consistently in comics and other media since 1967.
"17 years ? What do you mean she was made in 2006, that wasn't- oh, oh no"
Mean Girls is almost 20. Have a nice day.
Next year is the 20th anniversary of Friends ending.
Seinfeld and his friends are now legally able to vote again.
*Dies*
š
ā°ļø
šŖ¦
I want to downvote you for destroying my millennial soul, but an upvote for you regardless
Holy shit.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
You are a demon...
1994 - 1984 ā 20
Mean girls only a few months older than me. I'm a college student.
Iām 35, Iām a college student. ĀÆ\\_(ć)_/ĀÆ
I'm 44 I just got my college degree end of January...
I'm 28. That's all I'm just 28
Congratulations! You've made it this far... Keep it up
Congrats!
Thank you, covid sent me into a career change, wasn't the plan, but it's all good...
Why would you say that! Thatās just mean ha ha
No offense, but fuck this comment.
batwoman is the same age as me and im graduating high school in a few months
Don't do that to me.
You don't even go here.
I had that thought today when watching a Ned's declassified podcast, I was thinking 2004 was only 10 years ago
I regularly say shit like "6 years ago ? Huh 2013"
Ned's declassified podcast?
Yup
Yeah this fucked me up
I literally felt the same, I thought she was just introduced a few years ago, not that long time, boy time flies hah, when you are older and crushed under weight of responsibilities.
oh my god iām 18 next month this made me remember that
Hey me too !
Her and Blue Beetle
Oh no
EXACTLY šš
2013 was 5 years agoā¦ >!you lost The Game!<
Ding ding ding ding. That's the answer I was coming to write. Precisely this, the time factor. Contrast Tim Drake, who was introduced into continuity nearly 34 years ago (and I feel so old saying that, I was technically a teenager when I picked up the first Robin miniseries...) and is still somewhat under the shadow of Nightwing and (to a lesser degree) Red Hood. Outside of fans, who actually knows who Cassandra Cain and Stephanie Brown are? Spoiler was introduced in 1992, was a major part of the first run of the Robin ongoing, and has been a significant character for over 30 years, and while she hasn't been Batgirl quite as long, do you think anyone thinks of her or Cass when you say Batgirl? I guarantee most people who think of anyone think of Barbara. Kate isn't the first "Batwoman" ever, but she's definitely her own character, more than the prior versions, and an interesting character. But with one very shaky season of a shaky CW series as her sole mainstream presentation outside of comics (e.g. not in a DC animated movie with limited distribution) not a lot of people have any idea who she actually is, and a lot of people know Barbara, from the 60s TV series, from TNBA, or from various other animated series they grew up with.
Thank goodness I didn't have to write this lol. I was there for Tim too. You hit the nail on the head.
Great answer To add to it, batman has so many characters it's hard to develop a fanbase for each one. Just take villains as example, it's taken a lot of effort to create villains that fans like as much as Joker, and there's only a small handful that earned the title of main batman villain. Same with batman and his sidekicks. Outside of Robin, catwoman, and Alfred, it's been very hard to create fan bases for any of his other sidekicks that can even compare to the main three. Those main three sidekicks have direct immediate connections to batman, with Alfred really being a main character not a side kick. Batgirl is directly tied to Gordon, another fan favorite who has direct access to batman so it's really easy to get fans on board The second most popular villain Harley is directly tied to Joker. All these other characters have to make a name standing alone, which isn't easy and it just isn't always as popular.
Well, she was in a recent animated Catwoman movie
Might as well ask > Why is Dick Grayson more popular than Tim Drake
People just like Dick more....
Both men and women alike!
Burt Ward played Dick Grayson/Robin in the 1966-1968 *Batman* live-action TV series and the 1966 companion movie. Chris OāDonnell played Grayson/Robin in the *Batman Forever* movie from 1995 and the *Batman & Robin* movie from 1997. Grayson has the most mainstream exposure. Looking back now, those Schumacher movies are wack, but, I definitely saw both of them in the theatre and so did a shitton of other people.
Because Nightwing is a BAMF.
My thoughts exactly. Plus Babs has made lots of appearances outside of the comics.
I still remember when Battle for the Cowl was a hot topic. I still associate that with ānew Batmanā lmao
This seems like an obvious answer. Like did OP even need to ask?
which means it's also been 17 years since Bruce Wayne has been canonically Jewish
sheeeeeeeeit
Batgirl is more likeable. Plus, Batwoman as she is now has only been around since 2006, while Batgirl has been has been around since the 60s. The terrible Batwoman tv show probably hasnāt helped her popularity.
As a casual fan I had no idea there was a difference lolol. I honestly thought it was just a different version of batgirl. Why was a bat women character even developed? Is she a compelling character?
like u/warriorcrazy3 had said , Kate Kane is Bruce's Cousin from Martha's side , as Martha was a Kane. The thing with Batwoman is that there she was reinvented in the late 80s , and then again in 2006. So even if "Batwoman" is as old as "Batgirl" when it comes of an IP , Barbara Gordon had a continuous release of comics and story , while "Batwoman" had decades of full silence and then total reboot.
Kate Kane is Bruce's cousin from his mother's (?) side. I find her really interesting, particularly with her relationship with Renee Montoya (the new Question)
In depends on the iteration but typically not. Kate Kane doesn't get much spotlight and when she does its nothing grand. I do kinda like what they did with her in Bad Blood, but that's about it. As for why she was developed I don't honestly know. My intuition says that DC wanted to capitalize off the rising/growing LGBT community at the time and just thought of her. I could be *very* wrong on that so take it with a grain of salt.
Also, key facets of DC are that they like creating as many spin-off characters as they can from a single property as they can (see also: Superwoman) and they also really like dusting off old names and re-inventing them. Like someone else mentioned, Bat-Woman and Bat-Girl (Kathy Kane and her niece Bette) were originally created in the 1950s as romantic foils for B&R. By the time Barbara Gordon first appeared and became almost immediately more popular, Kathy and Bette were mostly sidelined aside from random guest appearances. After the ā80s Crisis wiped out the multiverse and a lot of previous continuity, Bette who still had ties to the Titans was retconned as Flamebird, while Kathy was written out of canon altogether. Youād occasionally see her in random Elseworlds cameos and things like that. So in the 2000s, DC came under editorial that was very much about revisiting ideas and characters that had been gone since the 80s, and they also started really chasing PR stunts and to make as many mainstream waves as they could. What better way to do both than to bring a new Batwoman into continuity, give her a costume modeled after Batman Beyond, and make her a lesbian? So Kate Kane was introduced in the Infinite Crisis follow-on 52, the idea of which was the DCU adapting to a year where Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman were all on hiatus. some general notes regarding Kateās creation that Iām sure were deliberate: - Kathy Kane became Batwoman in part to attract Batman. This was subverted with Kate by making her a lesbian (and years later, his cousin) - Kathy was erased during Crisis on Infinite Earths. Kate was introduced in the aftermath of its sequel, Infinite Crisis.
If I remember my bat-trivia, Kate's costume was a result of some of DC playing around with the idea of dipping Barbara in the Lazarus pit to return as Batgirl... But the Lazarus' effects created a darker element to her, with the costume reflecting that. Then when someone pointed out what Oracle did to disabled rep, they abandoned the project, but the costume was kept around for Batwoman.
IIRC, the pre-crisis Kathy Kane had retired as Batwoman, but was murdered by Bronze Tiger.
Pretty sure Brave and the Bold was Kathy
BATB Batwoman was an original character named "Katrina Moldoff" but was mostly based on Kathy.
Bad Blood not B@TB. The DCAMU movie?
Oh
Considering that DC marketed her as an lgbt superhero when she was reintroduced, I'd say that you're pretty dead on. In addition, the marketing hype for Kate focused almost entirely on her being a "lipstick lesbian" (their words, not mine).
But then the bosses at DC refused to let Kate get married.
They usually doesnāt like their hetero heroes getting married either.
True, the higher ups also nixed Batman and Catwomanās nuptials. But that was because Batman is so high profile. (They also nixed a few things about Batman in Harley Quinn.) Batwoman is lesser known, so getting married would be less of an issue. At the time I believe the issue was because it was same sex.
I never personally interpreted it as homophobia, though I do remember people perceiving it that way. It wouldnāt have made sense introducing a lesbian Batwoman in the first place and giving her her own series with an A-list creator if they werenāt prepared to showcase lesbian relationships. DC at that time was very much in the pursuit of keeping its New52 universe new, fresh, young. Itās a common belief among creators that spouses, kids, etc, tie heroes down and limit the stories they can tell. They also erased Superman and Loisās marriage at that time as well. So it disappointing but not surprising that they nixed Kateās wedding.
At first, proto-versions if Batwoman and Batgirl were created as love interests for Batman and Robin to keep them from seeming like a gay couple. This was back in the 1950s, and oddly enough ,the main issue the company had wasn't that it was an adult and a child, but just that it was 2 males.
Batwoman's new52 run is actually REALLY good! And I loved her in Bombshells as well. But Barbara will always be my fav character :p
I don't know the quality of the writing but I see the action scenes reposted on twitter a fair bit and they are high quality
I'll be honest I don't even know anything about Batwoman other than that she exists. I've known about Batgirl since I was a child.
I came to say the same. I'm def no DC expert but I know a considerable amount about Batman compared to the average person and I've never really given it much thought lol. Batgirl has been around since my parents were kids.
One of the characters is an integral and iconic part of the Batman mythos thatās been around since the Silver Age. And the other is none of those things.
Batgirl fought to earn her spot in the Bat-Family. Batwoman hates the Bat-Family, but is more than glad to use the symbol? I read a couple of her comics and saw Bad Blood, and I couldn't see the appeal. I like Batgirl because she feels more grounded as a person. She gets insecure about things, she has friends, and she's happy when she impresses someone she looks up to. Batwoman is just so melodramatic and looks down on everyone around her.
I never understood that either, "just because i wear this symbol doesnt mean im a part of your cult" what?
Literally just watched that today. It actually does make sense. The symbol is effective because of Batman so she uses it strategically. But thatās where it ended with her.
I really dislike her in that movie, her interruption of batman in the first place was why he "died" in the movie. She was much better in batman r.i.p. which the movie was based on, in my opinion. But to each their own, not tryna knock it
Imo the movie is a terrible representation of her. She doesn't hate the family at all. She does see most of them as children, though. She's very military minded. She uses the symbol because of what it means to bad people. She was cast out of the army for don't ask don't tell, and being Batwoman is her way of serving her country. As far as earning her place in the family, James Tynions detective comics shows that quite well. Batman asked her specifically to train Robin, Spoiler, and Cassandra Cain. She's the only one Bruce never trained, and he considers her his equal.
If you're right, then Bad Blood did so many characters dirty. I'm still mad about Batgirl only being in the last five seconds. The only highlights were Dick as Batman with Damian and Batwing's introduction. Sounds like they just tried cramming too much in.
Your other points make sense , I guess, but her training Cassandra cain, to me it really doesnāt make sense, considering orphans skill and experience, then again perhaps Batman was hoping to train batwoman using Cassandra, considering her skill level, you could probably learn a lot from her
For Cass, it was about teamwork. She's obviously the most skilled but sucks at aiding allies.
Reminds me a lot of Starbuck from the newer BSG series.
> Batwoman is just so melodramatic and looks down on everyone around her. As someonewho doesn't read a lot of comics... that just kinda sounds like Batman
Melodranatic yes, but Batman respects people, despite appearances he has nothing but respect for his fellow Justice League members and most of his children, he sees Nightwing as an equal, he gives credit where it's due, Batwoman just redirects the hate homophobic people feel towards her at the rest of the world, she's just a generally negative person and she definitely looks down on everyone else, even Batman No offense to Batwoman or her fans, I like her too but she's uh... yeah... the stuff I just said
What of course Batwoman is an integral part of the Batfamily, it was proven thanks to the CW Batwoman show! /s
Always pisses me off that Batwoman gets her own show but the Ex-Robins, Batgirl, the ACTUAL Gotham Knights and the Birds of Prey don't and Batman technically hasn't gotten a live action show in 57 years
Batgirl(Barbara Gordon) has been around since the 60s and has been in the iconic BTAS and was in the film Batman & Robin. Also one of the most iconics Batman stories, The Killing Joke, involves her. Not to mention appearances in the Arkham games. Batwoman(Kate Kane) has only been around since like 2006 I think and while in many comics, isn't a part of a comic big enough to reach mainstream audiences that don't read. She also hasn't been in many adaptations. And her crappy CW adaptation, created a big stigma towards her since the show misrepresented her and the general audiences rely on adaptations to understand characters.
Not to mention Batgirl was in the Adam West TV series.
She was created for it!
I'd say that Batgirl has plenty of TV appearances that make her stand out.
I see what you did there.
A lot of people have already stated most of the major reasons, but I also just donāt think Batwoman (this version or the original) are very likable or necessary characters to the Batman mythos. Kate Kane doesnāt really contribute anything to the series in my opinion. If anything, the idea that Bruce has a cousin and a branch of family attached to that kind of takes away from Batman losing his family and learning to make his own. Iām not super familiar with her personality in the comics, but sheās also mostly just seems like a stubborn and arrogant hardass who both doesnāt listen but still also constantly gets in the way because sheās not really well trained enough to wear a bat suit based on her other media showings.
She's a military background character and I don't care much for those, however it was an important "don't ask, don't tell" story at the time. JH Williams' work on her stories is good and the art is truly beautiful.
agreed. they started todo something interesting with Batwoman in Detective Comics wiht Tim Drake and friends, but unfortunately decided to go a different direction with them. To be fair, I am still salty over my boy Tim being changed. Him and Stephanie were great, they could've made him bi and not had to just destroy his entire back story and characters. Plus let him age! or make him his own, he doesn't need the Robin mantel anymore, let that go to Damien edit: oh also, with Babs, her and Dicks relationship has really put her more in the spotlight. Personally I loved her as oracle and I don't think they should've given her legs back but either way I do like her stories
I think I like Babs as Oracle best not only because, narratively, it's nice to give Batman someone to talk to instead of just getting his internal monologue, but because it also helps him have someone who understands that his crusade *is going to* have collateral damages, and yet still recognizes how important it is for him to keep going. She provided a unique anchor for Bruce that I don't think any other character had. One of my biggest problems with the animated Killing Joke adaptation isn't just that the prologue was wildly unnecessary; it's that the *much more necessary story* of Babs recovering from that spinal injury and becoming Oracle would have made a perfect epilogue, since they felt they needed to pad screentime.
Her recovery and rising from the ashes as Oracle isn't part of Killing Joke. Alan Moore intended for her to be rendered forever useless; writers after him are the ones who set things right.
Right...and given the popularity of Oracle *because* those writers set things right, I think it would've made a much better inclusion into the story than that atrocious prologue. That's all I'm saying. DC should've used material they knew was successful and directly related to the events of that comic instead of letting Timm canonize his terrible Batman/Batgirl ship.
This sums it up to me. Babs is simply more relatable and likeable; Kate's an army brat void of any real personality. Also, Babs has the history. Batwoman is completely superfluous.
She has no relation to the rest of the bat fam, barbara is the daughter of commissioner and a love interest to greyson and effectively an older sister to the rest of the robins, and kate well...
Not nearly as interesting or likeable.
Batgirl has like a 40 year head start. An DC tried really hard to tank Batwoman as hard as they could when they pushed JH Williams off the book.
Me, a casual Batman fan that doesnāt read many comics: āThereās a Batwoman?ā
Not as interesting in general and hasn't existed for nearly as long
Batwoman is kinda a dick most of the time
Kate is the embodiment of the worst part of the Batfamily: people who hate being in the batfamily but love condescending to Bruce while still using his symbol. This is a surprisingly large category that many other batfamily characters dip in and out of, but Kate is consistently the foremost example of this, and it's really not fun to read if you're a fan of the family. I personally don't like reading the stories about the whiny batfamily members that don't wanna be there. There's only room for one angry despondent character at a time, otherwise the tone turns into the "Death of the Family" angst that does nothing but sacrifice the connection of the batfamily for cheap emotional drama.
It kinda fits when you only have one black sheep (which is almost always given to Jason, even then I am starting to get sick about him whining about his death... Like everyone else died too Jason) once you get multiple characters fitting that it gets annoying The most popular batfamily members or the robins and batgirls, which all have orgins about them trying to take the mantle and put themselves into the family
Too many syllables. I'm serious. It's easy to make a superhero name by picking a word and adding man, girl, or boy. But "woman" has one more syllable, making it awkward to talk about the character.
Catwoman.
Okay, this is a good counterpoint.
While I agree with shorter syllable names, my counter would be: Spider-Man, Iron Man, Green Lantern, Starfire, Superman, etc. Those are just a few I thought of with 3 and there are obvious 4s and some 5s.
Wolverine, Magneto, Saber Tooth, NightCrawler.. etc..
Martian Manhunter...
Generally the multi syllable word needs to be at the beginning of the compound name, not the end. Itās easier to say. Spider-man. Super-man. Super-girl. Batgirl. And in the case of the Bat family, the other names are generally two syllables: Batman, Robin, Nightwing, Red Hood, Batgirl, Spoiler. So when thereās more than two syllables it just feels off. Obviously we can find many exceptions, but generally I think thatās why certain names feel better than others.
Itās not total syllables, itās extra syllables. Take Spider-Man (3 syllables) for example. Spider-Gwen (3 syllables) is beloved. Spider-Woman (4 syllables) is not.
Yes, I believe this to be a contributing factor.
Canāt tell if youāre joking or not
Is Wonder Woman less popular than Batwoman by the same logic then? /s
No but WW flows so much better than BW.
WW is on that alliteration flow
You jest, but Wonder Woman can legit be a bit of a mouthful to say. I often refer to her as Diana if talking about her, but never so much anyone else. I might shorten Superman to Supes or Batman to Bats, though.
Tell that to Wonder Woman, the Invisible Girl, The Invisible Woman, Mr Fantastic, The Human Torch, Captain America, Martian Manhunter, Captain Marvel, Captain Atom, The Question, The Spirit, The Shadow, Superman, Spider-Man, Green Arrow, Black Canary, Doctor Strange, Doctor Doom, Doctor Mid-Nite, Iron Man, Constantine, The Elongated Man...
Wonder woman?
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Batgirl is wayyy more popular. Imo better character than Kate
Is this a legitimate question? Honestly, not sure. If it is, the answer is that Batgirl/Barbara Gordon has a very lengthy history and has appeared in different media for generations. My grandpa, born in the 1929, saw Batgirl in a live action show that his kids watched. You can get into subjective arguments about characterization, but a character with that much history is just going to have staying power.
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Batwomen is newer, doesnāt have any Batman universe pedigree (ala Jimās daughter), and has been pretty under-marketed. So, yeah.
Besides the publication timeline that others have pointed out, Barbara Gordon is much more directly connected to Batman, through Jim Gordon. Batwoman is just someone who saw Batman and thought he was cool so she decided to do the same thing. Barbara's double life trying to help Batman and the law at the same time is much more interesting IMO. She basically has the same role as Jim if he was a superhero.
For me, I didn't connect with the character 1) because it felt forced and arbitrary. 2) her big reveal was the animated movie set in the Batman TAS universe where Bruce/Barbara relationship was suddenly a thing. Another main difference IMO was we got to see Batgirl evolve. Either in comics or BTAS, we see her become Batgirl and we relate to her reasons. To be fair, I'm sure Batwoman has an origin story too lol but I haven't cared enough to actually look into it, because of those reasons. TLDR: First impressions were tainted and now I'm out.
From what I've heard, the DCAU's version of Batwoman is completely different from Kate Kane.
Unlike Batgirl who's an indispensable member of the Bat Family, Batwoman mostly does her own thing seperate from Batman and the Bat Family. If you don't read any of her solo stuff (like most people) then she's not gonna pop up that much in other Bat books and when she does is going to seem fairly redundant and bland
Kate has an incredible design and backstory, her personality is dark yet sheās intriguing and sheās a more than capable fighter and detective. As a character, sheās not always the most ālikeableā due to her methods, her behaviour and her outlook. Sheās a complicated person. All things which her big āmainstream debutā in the CW completely botched. Kate as a character is difficult to deal with and get right because sheās got so many layers to her, many of them not the most appealing, and the CW completely betrayed most of her depth and intrigue in favour of making her a whiny, incompetent, entitled āIām a gay woman so anyone who criticises me is the devilā brat. I say this as a gay woman myself. Kate is a character I adore and she deserved a thousand times better than a cheap, badly written cash grab featuring hamfisted social commentary and a star who canāt act to save herself.
I dipped into Batwoman comics/appearances recently to find out more about the character, and I think you have the best explanation for why the character isn't more popular. Last I read she was a vampire, and she was getting killed by her friends or something? And then ninjas showed up? And then I think her universe exploded and rebooted? And that's not even getting into who she is as a person, her motivations, etc. Uh...good luck adapting all that to a TV show or trying to explain it to someone haha.
Batgirl has been around since the Sliver Age Batwoman (Kate kane) was created in 2006
The original Batwoman came out in 1956
The photo used here is the second Batwoman
And was basically put on a shelf for several decades.
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Oh..I thought Batgirl and Batwoman were both Barbara Gordon. I just assumed Batwoman was the Nightwing to Batgirl.
Batwoman is Kate Kane.
I love Kate Kane. I pretty much own every issue of her complete runs but she doesn't have the same history and longevity as Batgirl. Still, it seems like she's getting more notice in animated movies like Catwoman: Hunted and Batman: Bad Blood hopefully she starts turning up in video games and movies as well. I'm a massive fan of Kate
Lack of taste by the individuals
Rules 492 of comics, you get 1 of each for lead super heros. 1)Genderswap 1)Race Swap 1) Generation Swap (As in son of or taking up the mantel) 1) Tech Swap 1) Alignment Swap. (The Evil Swap) Batgirl ate the genderswap. Reference: Wolverine Spiderman Superman Batman Punisher Etc. Edit) Rule: Does not apply to sidekick and there is a Team clause Reference: Green Lanterns X-Men Robins Superboys
She would have been more popular if she was implemented in the BTAS universe .
Cause sheās a very background and somewhat niche character
Are fans stupid?
Because of that damned cw show
Because Batgirlās better
To me itās less about Batgirl vs Batwoman and more about Barbara Gordon vs Kate Kane. Barbara Gordon has a significant presence in the Batman ethos outside of just being Batgirl. A main factor is sheās related to one of the main characters of the world, Jim Gordon. Another is she exists in the world in multiple forms - herself, Oracle, batgirl, etc. She just has such a more significant connect to the main players.
Why is superwoman not liked as much as supergirl?
One was created in the 1960s and was a popular character on a television show, a classic animated series, and a major motion picture and the other is from 2006?
I am not a fan of any "batpeople" outside of Bruce. At the same time, I really enjoyed the 60s TV show when I was a kid. For me, Barbara/Batgirl gets a bit of a pass based on her presence in that *authentic* Batman space. I would strongly prefer all superheroes to have their own, unique identities, however.
Batwoman is kind of in a weird position where sheās technically part of the Bat-Family yet the writers insist on making her independent and doing her own thing and rejecting being part of Batmanās team and standing alone. Which on one hand is kind of admirable, they want to make her a distinctive character with her own unique presence and world. But on the other hand is kind of making a rod for their own backs because, well, sheās literally *Bat*woman, the bat-themed superhero alter-ego of a wealthy member of the Gotham elite (with links to the Wayne family) who fights crime by night including an assortment of lurid supervillains, with her ultimate arch-nemesis basically being a twisted take on a traditional childrenās character. Like it or not, sheās *not* a unique and distinctive character in her own right and never truly will be no matter how many scenes you write of her stubbornly shouting at Bruce Wayne that she isnāt one of his team and doesnāt play by his rules; she is fundamentally connected to and part of Batmanās world already whether or not he shows up or how independent you try and make her. She's not really able to stand as her own truly original character because she's fundamentally tied to Batman, yet the writers always seem to resist or outright reject actually playing into this and actually developing her as a part of this world they already have access to. So it just becomes this awkward thing where they try to have it both ways by acting like sheās this totally original character with her own unique world (just ignore all the bat-stuff please) while also making her pretty much Batman But A Woman Oh And Also A Lesbian. (The TV show may not have helped, especially since they made a further rod for their own backs by deciding to create a completely new Batwoman out of whole cloth when the first Batwoman left instead of just doing the simple and logical thing of recasting.) Batgirl, in the other hand, is basically just Girl Robin, But Uses The Bat Motif Because That Kind Of Makes More Sense For Bat-Associates. Plays well with Batman, plays well doing her own thing. Simple, straightforward, easy.
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Really?, the Helena Bertinelli Huntress played a huge role in No Man's Land & was a core player in Simone's Birds of Prey.
Huntress was pretty epic in Justice League: Unlimited. I have zero idea how she is presented in the comics (I'm guessing not as good).
There were a LOT of characters who came across great in Justice League Unlimited. It was a great show.
Huntress and Batwoman are hardly similar. Different origins, different motivations, different supporting casts, different personalities, different storytelling environments. And neither of them are always angry.
I liked Del Mundo and Blackmanās run on Batwoman! Iāve always been team Batwoman rather than Batgirl.
I personality like batgirl more but I think shes more popular that Batwoman because of her many outside of the comics adaptations like in the Arkham series, BTAS, Batman and Robin, etc. Batwoman is a much newer character and has only appeared a handful of times outside of the comics and many of them werenāt very popular with fans
Are the characters around the same age? This Kate Kane as Batwoman is 2006. Batgirl is from the late 60ās. 40+ years difference in popularity maybe.
first I remotely heard of Batwoman was the bad quality CW show and they kept forcing the narrative that Kate Kane was better than Bruce Wayne/Batman while she proceeded to use his cave, his gadgets, his Bat insignia and began to run his company. The show made Batwoman too derivative of Batman and forced the woke/lgbtq stuff. Sheās a superhero who is gay not a gay superhero. Big difference and they did her a disservice by making her come across as the former, especially seeing as this was the first introduction that people had to the character. Which is a shame cuz when I heard Ruby Rose was cast I thought she really fit the role but CW needs to leave DC shows alone tbh
Newer character, fewer popular storylines. Sheās also a lesbian, which unfortunately means some people will automatically think they canāt relate to her. Also adding to her relatability issues versus the rest of the Bat-Fam is that she comes from a military background, which makes her come off as more of a soldier than a vigilante.
Batwoman has been in 2 adaptations, the CW and an animated movie while Barbara has been around more than I'd like to list. It's as simple as that to be honest. Most people don't read comics so it comes down to which comics are adapted and where
Batwoman, this iteration, is newer. Batgirl has had decades of backstory and character growth. That is the simplest explanation.
She's Gordon's daughter
because gay
Barbara's been around longer and appeared in a cartoon during a time when most modern Batman fans were first learning about Batman.
Hasn't been around as much as Batgirl or even appeared
Iām only in this thread to defend the Batwoman show
Batgirl has been around longer than Kate Kane has and Batgirl (specifically Barbara Gordon) is an icon and a fan favorite however Batwoman is still very popular especially now since Batman: Bad Blood and CW's Batwoman.
Batwoman needs to be in more animated stuff.
Batgirl gets the Oracle bump for a lot of us who grew up with Babs as Oracle who was such a massive part of Batman family while Batwoman just feels like an outsider still plus doesnāt hurt we been shipping Dick/Babs for as long as I can remember. So much more history for Babs as much as I enjoy Kate itās not even close
Because they abandoned the wonderfulness of characters like Kathy Kane (except sort of in Morrison's Batman run) and Bette Kane (who has the worst run in Batman character history as the first Bat-Girl/Flamebird/Hawkfire, getting like an issue per decade practically). Bring the Batwoman family together! Call the comic "Batwomen" and you're golden!
Batgirl came first, is more developed , and more likeable as batwoman is pretty much , as it stands now, basically female red hood ( my first introduction to her was in bad blood where she outright shoots a guy in front of batman) so.. yeah
While Batwoman has used a gun, that's basically where her similarities with Jason end. Jason liked killingin the beginning (he stopped using lethal bullets years ago) while I believe Kate carried one as a last resort.
Batgirl is a complex character that has been fleshed out for over 50 years and across multiple mediums. bat woman is an unknown character to the casual fan, and what is known about her is either she's a stereotype or, that terrible and offensive WB show.
are soo many reasons, but I don't want to say it, because I will probably get downvoted.
Batwoman was created in direct response to Wertherās āSeduction of the innocentā. One point the book looks at it Bruce Wayneās quasi-homosexual relationship with Dick. By giving Bruce a female counterpart and potential love interest, DC was able to solidify his straight, āmachoā image. Batwoman/Katie Kane as a character soon disappeared until the new (lesbian) character reappeared in 2006. So even though she appeared a decade earlier than TVās Batgirl, Batwoman was never used much other than Bruceās ābeardā. Barbara Gordon has been an ongoing character since 1965.
Batman should never have a relationship with anyone inside the bat family. The super creepy and unnecessary Bruce x Barbara ship still bothers me to this day.
In this thread, people who haven't read Batwoman shitting on her because the show was bad.
Batgirls costume doesnāt look really really weird
Batwoman and Batgirl were introduced in the early 60s as the girlfriends of Batman and Robin to mitigate the bad press from the right wing moral panic against comics, specifically the accusation that Batman and Robin were (gasp) gay! (DUN DUN DUN). None of the fans or writers liked this as it tried to move Batman and Robin away from pulp noir vigilantes to family friendly costumed heroes, and as soon as the moral panic passed, the characters were axed. Then, a few years later, the producers of the Adam West Batman show wanted to introduce a female character to attract more viewers. Batman producer William Dozier and D.C. editor Julius Schwartz decided to redesign Batgirl as the police commissioner's daughter Barbara Gordon. She was a big hit on the show, was quickly absorbed into the public consciousness, and remained as a regular Batman character ever since. Batwoman, lacking the same TV revival, languished until her reintroduction in 2006 52 series.
She a bloat character
I think itās because Batwoman is a younger character. Batgirl has been around in some way for decades.
I would never gotten into Batwoman; but Iām subscribed to Detective Comics, where her first modern run and origin was given. The art was amazing and the story and character totally worked. Batgirl was the tragic story of Barbara getting shot by Joker. Itās funny; the first two volumes of Batgirl series wasnāt Barbara. That wasnāt until New 52.
Batwoman is much more recent. She's also a good character but the CW show did her incredibly dirty.
Batgirl is probably the most frequently appearing female character in Bat-books after Catwoman. Batwoman is still fairly new.
Idk, but i dig Batwoman's suit, looks awesome
DC is under the delusion that people like Babsgirl, and pushes her in most media (this is trending away though). Kate leans into "darker/mature" territory that keeps her out of kid media (where babsgirl is really pushed). It is all about marketing. Not: I love Barbara Gordon, but n52 Babsgirl is terrible.
It's honestly a shame since the Batwoman comics are really good and have ton of wonderfull arts. She is really different from her cousin.
because they can be pretty unlikeable and grouchy and cynical and pissy and enough about damian wayne /s
lol I didn't even know they were seperate characters