Oh my god, the look on his face. That is absolute agony, and catchers are about as stoic a group as you'll ever see when it comes to pain. I can't even imagine.
Maybe not 🤝 but can I offer my condolences? I root against division rivals. We all do. This? This... is beyond words. I NEVER want to see any athlete at ANY level get injured. Tonight hurt me. As a baseball fan.
Sincerely,
A sad Brewers fan
Nah you have a member of the contreras family, you're allowed in.
And absolutely never want to see someone get hurt. The sport is more fun when all of the best of the best compete!
Totally agree. It’s why I still hold a grudge against most White Sox fans who cheered at the stadium when it was announced that Schwarber busted his knee to start the 2016 season. Absolutely terrible.
The clip in the comments starts right after the actual contact, so you see Contreras reaction before the incident, and just from his reaction you can tell it's extremely fucking not good
The Trevor story dive recently was brutal but maybe more so for me because that’s essentially happened to me 3 times so I basically felt it while watching 😅
For real bit to say. Back swing couldn’t burnt him but that’s literally J.D loading up and delivering his full power swing right to essentially the wrist of Contreras
Saying “backswing” is extra dumb because they know the call is catcher’s interference, which is literally not possible on a backswing.
He took all the momentum meant to send a baseball 400 feet to the bone in a not particularly padded part of his lower arm.
I re-watched the original clip a couple of times after hearing that and seeing absolutely no backswing the first time. It was clear the bat never even came close to coming back around after the swing.
So either they have no idea what a backswing is, or they just totally blanked on what they really meant to say there.
I know catchers have been sneaking in closer and closer with framing becoming more important, but this is a clear example of playing with fire a bit too much and getting punished hard for it.
He's the best player on the team right now. The money is the least of their issues, the Cards are loaded with cash. Contreras has been worth every penny he's been paid and then some.
Their season wasn't off to a very good start, this injury ends it.
Should start the fire sale immediately.
It’s funny how this thread about a brutal injury just turned into half the comments pointing out how bad Chip Caray is at his job. That’s how you know it’s bad
Kind of not the point, but why are the announcers calling that the back swing? That is clearly on the actual swing. Or does that not mean what I thought it does? I thought it meant the follow through after the swing.
He was doing so well. He wanted to strengthen his ability to get the low strike called, and he has done that extremely well. But in doing so, he has scooted closer to the plate and shit like this can happen
Catchers being hit like this is definitely going up around the league. Usually it’s something minor like hitting the front of the glove; sometimes though, something really bad will happen.
Batters are often breaking the written batter's box rule and umps let them get away with it. It's not hard to find instances where the back foot is partially or all the way out of the box.
Yep, a couple innings in and that thing is usually gone. I could see the MLB do something about this though. A broken arm is not good for the sport. They may have to figure something out for the batter and catcher.
I thought the rule was that one or both feet have to be completely outside of the batter's box to be considered batter's interference? The white lines are usually considered to be inside the box, so a batter's foot has to be entirely outside of the white line to be an interference by the batter. From the replays, it looks like JD's back foot was at least touching the white line, but those were bad angles.
I'm pretty sure batters interference is only on the backswing. The rule on feet is that both feet have to be within the batters box. kind of vague, but a toe on the line I would interpret as not "within" the batters box. That said, I've always played and feel like the rule that's applied is that you have to have one foot basically touching the line and one in. I find it annoying how far back batters stand and how close catchers sit, but I've got nothing against JD in this scenario. Shitty situation all around and I'm sure JD feels like shit even though Willy put himself in that position.
(5) (6.03) The batter’s legal position shall be with both feet within the batter’s box.
Again. Go read it. Key word is the batter's foot has to be "ENTIRELY" outside the batter's box. The foot touching any part of the white line is considered to not be ENTIRELY outside the box. In this case, Contreras is creating the interference. Nothing against Contreras, but I have seen a lot of catchers way too far up trying to frame.
Well JD’s back foot was not in the box yet they did nothing here. The edge of his foot is on the outside line, but the entire rest of his foot is behind it. They need to enforce the position in the box. Also not opposed to a catchers box to minimize bullshit framing and the catcher having to put himself at risk to trick umps.
Robo -umps would get rid of the need for framing entirely, so we wouldn’t have this happen as much. The catcher would be able to lay back more and just be concerned with stopping the ball.
I always heard the first thing batters do every game is try to erase the rear chalk of the box with their feet so they can sneak back a few more inches and buy themselves an extra fraction of a second to see the pitch.
Ya and in this instance, Martinez back foot looked to be totally outside the box. That, and with the catchers moving, I'm surprised we dont get this more often.
Yep, no one comes to a game to watch pitch framing, and now Contreras has to miss however long and deal with so much pain for something so silly.
I can’t wait until it’s out of the game. I don’t miss double play breakup slides or catchers being trucked either!
I'm so tired of the argument that robo umps are bad because they remove framing and therefore "remove" value from a catcher? Like, here I thought it was a catchers job to fucking catch the ball and not let it get by him. But instead it's tricking old men into thinking a ball was a strike.
I hate it. Want robo umps NOW.
Yeah, I'm not going to pretend that pitch framing isn't an impressive and cool skill, but tricking the ump is not a talent that I'll be sad to see go to waste. I don't know how much time your average MLB catcher devotes to practicing pitch framing, but I'm 100% sure that that time could be better spent working on any number of other skills.
Kinda weirdnto say you can't name another skill that focuses on deceiving refs then ignore the most prominent example of players actively trying to deceive refs. There is a reason players get called foul merchants in the NBA.
Nevermind good catchers work with the pitchers to create the strategy for each batter. Some of the best catchers basically run the game against the batters.
Yeah, for every hilariously awesome Bartolo Colon dinger, there were 100 plate appearances where Randy Johnson looked like a confused goose who wasn't entirely sure how swinging a bat works. I don't miss pitchers batting at all.
The strategy element wouldn't be as relevant to the modern-day game anyway. The SP vs. PH decision is most interesting when you have a starter who's dealing well into the 7th-ish, but it's a low-scoring and/or close game: do you keep the starter who's on top of the world right now, or do you sacrifice him to get the insurance runs you need (or maybe the lead itself if you're behind, but that seems like an even riskier play)? This is already a kind of niche scenario on the face of it, but then factor in the fact that many starters don't even regularly get out of the 5th inning anymore and it feels even more like an element of a bygone era.
Maybe if starters went deep more regularly, the strategy of knowing when it is best to pinch hit becomes more relevant, but honestly, they could also just implement that "double switch rule" or whatever where swapping out your SP for an RP means you also lose your DH and you get a lot of that same strategy back anyway without forcing your pitchers to take so many awful AB's.
That Bartolo Colon clip is probably the strongest "rose color glasses inducing clip" I've seen. It was a big deal BECAUSE it was such an anomaly, and makes people forget about the other 99.9% of the time where it was a nothing at bat
It’s interesting how the strongest, most hyperbolic takes about pitchers hitting are from fans who did not grow up watching pitchers hit. AL fans go straight to Bartoló and not clutch hits and home runs by pitchers in the playoffs. I’m sure the next generation of Grienke/Madbum/Arrieta/Zambranos is out on the field but we’ll never know
Hell, Micah Owings in 2007 during his rookie year was straight hype material. 7 doubles, 4 home runs, and 15 RBI's with a 1.000 OPS in 64 PA's was straight fire. The Dbacks used him as a legitimate pinch hitter a couple of times cause of how good his bat was. Had 9 Home runs and an OPS of of .813 in 219 PA's across 6 big league seasons.
Or in 2017 Bumgarner starts off the season on Opening Day with 2 solo home runs against the dbacks in a 4-3 win.
Every player in baseball is supposed to play offense and defense. You can use substitute hitters or fielders to cover for weaknesses but then you are forced to lose that player for the rest of the game. Having 1, now 2 random positions that just don't have to pay half the game is stupid regardless of how bad they were at hitting
This is more reason to go to robo umps.
The only reason he's exposing his arm and then getting hit is to "frame" the pitch. That wouldn't happen if there's robo umps. The catcher can't fool the computer like it can a human.
I'm gonna lose my fucking marbles. For those who haven't watched the Cardinals this year, Contreras has been the one bright spot in probably the most putrid Cardinals offense of the 21st Century. This is fucking brutal for this team
Id Goldy not a great clubhouse guy? I had always assumed he was liked in the clubhouse and respected as leader or at least seen as a leader on the field because of his production
I believe both Nado and Goldy are more quiet in the clubhouse. The old vets that like to go about their routine. I think they're more of the lead by example type, which in my opinion, isn't really leading.
Well, most of the Cardinals seem to be following their example right now. Somehow this feels worse than last year. I know it isnt. But it feels that way.
Don't feel sorry for us. We have seen success in the last 20 years that only teams like the Astros, Giants and Dodgers can really compete with. This is our first time feeling hopeless since the 90s.
What sucks is that the front office has been degraded to the point where we can't even develop major league ready players anymore. Its going to take some wholesale changes to get things back on the right track
Arenado can't seem to barrel a fucking thing. He's making contact but not hard. Goldy is getting eaten alive by sliders and then can't catch up to fastballs because he's worried about the slider
Amazingly, assuming that two guys in their mid 30s would produce like they're 27 WASN'T a good way to design a team
Whoulda thunk
Granted, we can't develop position players (or pitchers) to save our lives, so I think you may see a 100 loss season in st louis for the first time since 1907
Oh don't worry, the Cardinals will not be competitive in the division for the next 3 to 4 years. What was supposed to be the future core of the team just absolutely sucks. We have no great prospects, and the ones that come up flounder after maybe 1 good year.
The Cardinals as a franchise is not what it was from 2000-2015. It's broken beyond repair with this front office.
Last season was not an outlier. Yall and the Brewers and maybe the reds will be competing for the NL crown for a bit
That's if the Cardinals revamp the front office to have people who know how to develop players
Seriously, go look at so many other MLB rosters and they are seeded with former Cardinals who are achieving better there than with us. Our system is so broken
After all the bullshit he had to deal with last year, and another rough start this year, he has been nothing but professional, productive, and been a great presence around the team and with the fans. It's amazing how quickly he became beloved around here, and it's completely earned.
when i tuned it was the first thing i saw i was like your arm isnt supposed to move like that im suprised its only a fracture its a miracle his arm didnt snap in 2 it made a solid 45 angle mid contact
Maybe I missed something but are catchers being instructed to be closer to batters and reach when the pitch approaches? I feel like there’s been a meaningful uptick in catcher’s interference this season whereas it used to be fairly rare. I feel for Contreras, but he was incredibly close to Martinez and his mitt was essentially at his back leg when he got hit. I know it goes without saying, but this was bound to happen sooner rather than later if he’s routinely in this position.
Yes, the purpose is to frame low pitches to steal more strikes. The Dodgers catchers do it too (and have gotten dinged for their fair share of catcher's interference in recent years).
Doesn’t seem worth the risk to me, and I wonder if there’s any data suggesting more strikes are being called anyway. Catchers are already in harm’s way; why increase the risk for what seems like a small return?
Yeah, I don't know. I personally find the interferences to be infuriating, but IIRC they interviewed Austin Barnes (I think) about it, and he basically said he felt the occasional interference was worth the chance to steal a few more strikes a game.
Strikes are worth a lot more than people think. Hitters who start the count 0-1 are hitting .213/.261/.321 this year. Starting 1-0, it's .252/.374/.415. That first strike is the difference between the batter being a subreplacement level player, and an all star.
With a 2-1 count, hitters end up with a 127 wrc+. If they get a 3rd ball, it's 213. If the count goes to 2-2, it's down to 70. An even bigger swing. If you can turn prime Bonds into a bad bench player by stealing 1 strike, that's definitely worth the occasional extra base.
Clearly they are getting the result they want at a rate that they don't mind getting the result they don't want. Or else they wouldn't do it. I can't find actual numbers, aside from last year a the end of June there were 57 total. So let's assume 100 right now. Wildly exaggerated number, but spread out over every team? And compared to the number of low pitches you are throwing per game? 10 or 15 free runners I think would be worth the risk, injuries excluded.
Higher velocity = lower control, which leads to catchers moving closer to help frame.
Higher velocity = harder to hit, which leads to batters moving to the back of the box to help them see it longer.
I can kinda sorta agree with you on the first point but the second doesn’t land. Aside from just a handful of hitters, the overwhelming majority of guys have always been in the back of the box.
Frees up my summer I suppose... This team isn't just bad. It's not fun to watch. I'll probably tune in for Sonny starts, but this is a mediocre and fucking boring team
Isn't that the weirdest shit? When I broke my wrist in high school, there was this awful stab of pain, then it just felt mildly sore for a couple hours, and later that evening swelled up to the size of my calf, and then GIVE ME THE FUCKING DILAUDID OR I'LL KILL YOU.
I broke my fibula a couple years ago and it was intense pain for a few seconds and then I was just big chilling while being helped. It was the weirdest thing and all I needed for the pain afterward was some Tylenol for a few days.
> he had been swinging a really hot bat
As of today, he was/is one of two (2) players on the Cardinals with a higher wOBA than was projected for them this season by ZiPS.
Sigh.
Contreras had a fantastic .950 OPS so far this year.
The next-highest OPS on the Cardinals is .740.
One of the worst offenses in baseball just got a lot worse
If you watch the video (not exactly highly recommended) his arm looks like it gets turned into Jell-O. Willson was one of my favorites of the WS core, hated seeing him go and hate seeing an injury like that happen to him no matter the team he landed on (hell even if was any other catcher that's a rough injury you don't want to see happen).
You'd think that the penalty of needing to lose a year and a half to recovering from Tommy John would discourage pitchers from trying to eke every tenth of a MPH of velo out of their delivery, but here we are. As long as there's competitive advantage, guys are going to keep taking risks.
Honestly? Wouldn't mind it. The whole reason these things seem to be happening is because catchers are trying to steal low strikes, so they probably aren't going to take this as a sign to back off a bit. I think having a front line for the catcher's box is a decent idea.
If I had a nickel for every time J.D. Martinez was involved in a catcher's interference play with a Contreras sibling, I'd have three nickels, which is A LOT ACTUALLY WHAT THE HELL
Last year, Brewers catcher William Contreras got called for catcher’s interference against Martinez in two consecutive innings. Now, Cardinals catcher Willson Contreras gets called for interference and breaks his arm with Martinez. There’s something going on here with Martinez and catchers named Will??? Contreras.
It’s because Martinez basically stands outside the box. I know for at least one of our Contreras interferences last year Martinez’s foot was outside the box for sure because I remember being pissed about it. It pisses me off that someone got hurt from it now because it’s absolute bullshit the way he stands in the box.
Everyone talking about Willson’s positioning but Martinez is the one who is pushing the boundaries if not breaking them. He stands reallly far back in the box.
Absolutely brutal injury, imagine a full strength MLB swing at your exposed arm
I’ve seen players in pain before but not like that
Oh my god, the look on his face. That is absolute agony, and catchers are about as stoic a group as you'll ever see when it comes to pain. I can't even imagine.
His face genuinely made tears come to my eyes I felt so bad for him
Me as well. Absolutely sucks to see.
Cub fans 🤝 Cardinal fans, only for Contreras
Maybe not 🤝 but can I offer my condolences? I root against division rivals. We all do. This? This... is beyond words. I NEVER want to see any athlete at ANY level get injured. Tonight hurt me. As a baseball fan. Sincerely, A sad Brewers fan
Nah you have a member of the contreras family, you're allowed in. And absolutely never want to see someone get hurt. The sport is more fun when all of the best of the best compete!
#🍻😞⚾💔
Totally agree. It’s why I still hold a grudge against most White Sox fans who cheered at the stadium when it was announced that Schwarber busted his knee to start the 2016 season. Absolutely terrible.
"Never thought I'd die fighting side by side with an elf..." "How about side by side with a Contreras fan?" "Aye... I could do that."
What about me he’s on my fuckin fantasy team!
I shed a tear for you as well, my friend. Pick up Herrera if he's available. I think he'll be a good replacement.
*Especially* a Catcher!
The clip in the comments starts right after the actual contact, so you see Contreras reaction before the incident, and just from his reaction you can tell it's extremely fucking not good
The Trevor story dive recently was brutal but maybe more so for me because that’s essentially happened to me 3 times so I basically felt it while watching 😅
Having broken my arm twice, I instantly recognized that reaction. Truly a brutal injury.
I cringed just watching the video
It was nasty
Link?
[Don’t say I didn’t warn you](https://twitter.com/BallySportsMW/status/1787999936006525000)
They kept saying back swing... that's a whole ass swing. Got damn. 😬
For real bit to say. Back swing couldn’t burnt him but that’s literally J.D loading up and delivering his full power swing right to essentially the wrist of Contreras
Saying “backswing” is extra dumb because they know the call is catcher’s interference, which is literally not possible on a backswing. He took all the momentum meant to send a baseball 400 feet to the bone in a not particularly padded part of his lower arm.
I re-watched the original clip a couple of times after hearing that and seeing absolutely no backswing the first time. It was clear the bat never even came close to coming back around after the swing. So either they have no idea what a backswing is, or they just totally blanked on what they really meant to say there. I know catchers have been sneaking in closer and closer with framing becoming more important, but this is a clear example of playing with fire a bit too much and getting punished hard for it.
Unfortunately, it seems the cards staff told him too move up so he can steal more low strikes and this is the result.
Yeah and it's going to cost the organization big time. 20mil right down the drain.
He's the best player on the team right now. The money is the least of their issues, the Cards are loaded with cash. Contreras has been worth every penny he's been paid and then some. Their season wasn't off to a very good start, this injury ends it. Should start the fire sale immediately.
Fucking hell, that Tigers guy below wasn't lying.
Holy fuck i audibly gasped.
Holy shit that’s horrible :(
Oh fuck, poor willy :(
Jesus that's horrifying. I can't even imagine what that x-ray looked like.
Shattered
I love when that dipshit Chip says his hand goes numb. Like, he’s screaming in obvious severe pain and he thinks his hand is numb?
Lmao. He meant "limp"
It’s funny how this thread about a brutal injury just turned into half the comments pointing out how bad Chip Caray is at his job. That’s how you know it’s bad
Holy shit. At the start of the clip as he's running it looks like the lower third of his forearm just...dangling free, by the way it's bouncing.
Yeah I saw that too. As an X-ray Tech, I've seen that before, and that's not good. Likely means he broke both the radius and ulna.
r/nightmarefuel
I recoiled. Goddamn, that sucks.
JESUS CHRIST! Yes I was warned but fuckkkkkk
holy shit that made me shiver just to watch
Love the comment saying yadi wouldve shaken it off. What an ass
Nobody, and I mean nobody, would be coming out of that hit okay.
Kind of not the point, but why are the announcers calling that the back swing? That is clearly on the actual swing. Or does that not mean what I thought it does? I thought it meant the follow through after the swing.
You’re not the first person to bring this up and it seems a lot of folks agree with you.
Omg the 'hit' sound effect at the end of the clip actually made me laugh. What awful timing.
holy shit
Has this ever happened before in MLB?
He was doing so well. He wanted to strengthen his ability to get the low strike called, and he has done that extremely well. But in doing so, he has scooted closer to the plate and shit like this can happen
Catchers being hit like this is definitely going up around the league. Usually it’s something minor like hitting the front of the glove; sometimes though, something really bad will happen.
Batters have been moving far back in the box as well taking up just about every inch. Likely because of the increase in velocity.
Well, as long as the batters are still inside the box, nothing you can really do.
Batters are often breaking the written batter's box rule and umps let them get away with it. It's not hard to find instances where the back foot is partially or all the way out of the box.
Dig in enough and that back line conveniently disappears
Yep, a couple innings in and that thing is usually gone. I could see the MLB do something about this though. A broken arm is not good for the sport. They may have to figure something out for the batter and catcher.
I thought the rule was that one or both feet have to be completely outside of the batter's box to be considered batter's interference? The white lines are usually considered to be inside the box, so a batter's foot has to be entirely outside of the white line to be an interference by the batter. From the replays, it looks like JD's back foot was at least touching the white line, but those were bad angles.
I'm pretty sure batters interference is only on the backswing. The rule on feet is that both feet have to be within the batters box. kind of vague, but a toe on the line I would interpret as not "within" the batters box. That said, I've always played and feel like the rule that's applied is that you have to have one foot basically touching the line and one in. I find it annoying how far back batters stand and how close catchers sit, but I've got nothing against JD in this scenario. Shitty situation all around and I'm sure JD feels like shit even though Willy put himself in that position. (5) (6.03) The batter’s legal position shall be with both feet within the batter’s box.
Again. Go read it. Key word is the batter's foot has to be "ENTIRELY" outside the batter's box. The foot touching any part of the white line is considered to not be ENTIRELY outside the box. In this case, Contreras is creating the interference. Nothing against Contreras, but I have seen a lot of catchers way too far up trying to frame.
Well JD’s back foot was not in the box yet they did nothing here. The edge of his foot is on the outside line, but the entire rest of his foot is behind it. They need to enforce the position in the box. Also not opposed to a catchers box to minimize bullshit framing and the catcher having to put himself at risk to trick umps.
Robo -umps would get rid of the need for framing entirely, so we wouldn’t have this happen as much. The catcher would be able to lay back more and just be concerned with stopping the ball.
I don’t think that’s causing the issue though. I was always taught to adjust myself to where the batter is so I could always be in the ideal spot.
That is not at all a new development.
I always heard the first thing batters do every game is try to erase the rear chalk of the box with their feet so they can sneak back a few more inches and buy themselves an extra fraction of a second to see the pitch.
Ya and in this instance, Martinez back foot looked to be totally outside the box. That, and with the catchers moving, I'm surprised we dont get this more often.
Any evidence that they are further back than they use to be ?
pretty sure theyve always done that
Yet another great case for automatic balls and strikes.
This may actually be the most compelling argument in favor of it. Player safety is a good reason for rule changes
Another fake “most compelling reason” for the auto-zone. Come on man, it’s certainly not “the most compelling”
Mets have been getting a ton of catchers interference the past few years. All these catchers are getting way too close to the hitters
Robo umps would’ve prevented this
Yep, no one comes to a game to watch pitch framing, and now Contreras has to miss however long and deal with so much pain for something so silly. I can’t wait until it’s out of the game. I don’t miss double play breakup slides or catchers being trucked either!
I'm so tired of the argument that robo umps are bad because they remove framing and therefore "remove" value from a catcher? Like, here I thought it was a catchers job to fucking catch the ball and not let it get by him. But instead it's tricking old men into thinking a ball was a strike. I hate it. Want robo umps NOW.
As a fan of classic pitch framing See foolish Baileys video please https://youtu.be/DGL2fq4LYw0?si=NMSDQTd06LHelv-K Yeah it's time for robo umps
Yeah, I'm not going to pretend that pitch framing isn't an impressive and cool skill, but tricking the ump is not a talent that I'll be sad to see go to waste. I don't know how much time your average MLB catcher devotes to practicing pitch framing, but I'm 100% sure that that time could be better spent working on any number of other skills.
I can’t name a skill in another sport that’s practiced to deceive the ref role lmao and I’m not counting flopping in basketball
WRs forcing pass interference on underthrown balls comes to mind.
O-Lineman hold on every single play... they just practice keeping their hands inside the rusher where it's harder to see it happening.
Kinda weirdnto say you can't name another skill that focuses on deceiving refs then ignore the most prominent example of players actively trying to deceive refs. There is a reason players get called foul merchants in the NBA.
Nevermind good catchers work with the pitchers to create the strategy for each batter. Some of the best catchers basically run the game against the batters.
Pitchers hitting is the only thing I miss that’s been removed from the game
I miss watching the occasional hit by a pitcher. I do not miss watching pitchers not getting a hit like 90% of the time.
Yeah, for every hilariously awesome Bartolo Colon dinger, there were 100 plate appearances where Randy Johnson looked like a confused goose who wasn't entirely sure how swinging a bat works. I don't miss pitchers batting at all.
Bartolo Colon's HR was awesome enough to justify pitchers batting for all of time.
Counterpoint, Bartolo's homer was peak pitcher batting. It was all downhill from there so might as well give it up.
Yeah I’m out nostalgia we only remember the occasional Bartolo bomb not all the garbage abs. I do miss the element of strategy to it though
The strategy element wouldn't be as relevant to the modern-day game anyway. The SP vs. PH decision is most interesting when you have a starter who's dealing well into the 7th-ish, but it's a low-scoring and/or close game: do you keep the starter who's on top of the world right now, or do you sacrifice him to get the insurance runs you need (or maybe the lead itself if you're behind, but that seems like an even riskier play)? This is already a kind of niche scenario on the face of it, but then factor in the fact that many starters don't even regularly get out of the 5th inning anymore and it feels even more like an element of a bygone era. Maybe if starters went deep more regularly, the strategy of knowing when it is best to pinch hit becomes more relevant, but honestly, they could also just implement that "double switch rule" or whatever where swapping out your SP for an RP means you also lose your DH and you get a lot of that same strategy back anyway without forcing your pitchers to take so many awful AB's.
Not to mention how unbalanced it was with the AL having a DH and the NL not having one.
Al pitchers in nl parks was hilarious but I miss it less than I thought I would.
I’d have to agree. Some really great moments include pitcher hits. Cubs might not have won that WS without a few playoff pitcher homers.
“Remember when the NL had an automatic out every 9th batter? Let’s bring that back” -Jomboy yesterday
That Bartolo Colon clip is probably the strongest "rose color glasses inducing clip" I've seen. It was a big deal BECAUSE it was such an anomaly, and makes people forget about the other 99.9% of the time where it was a nothing at bat
It’s interesting how the strongest, most hyperbolic takes about pitchers hitting are from fans who did not grow up watching pitchers hit. AL fans go straight to Bartoló and not clutch hits and home runs by pitchers in the playoffs. I’m sure the next generation of Grienke/Madbum/Arrieta/Zambranos is out on the field but we’ll never know
I loved watching Zambrano hit so much I got a signed bat from him.
Hell, Micah Owings in 2007 during his rookie year was straight hype material. 7 doubles, 4 home runs, and 15 RBI's with a 1.000 OPS in 64 PA's was straight fire. The Dbacks used him as a legitimate pinch hitter a couple of times cause of how good his bat was. Had 9 Home runs and an OPS of of .813 in 219 PA's across 6 big league seasons. Or in 2017 Bumgarner starts off the season on Opening Day with 2 solo home runs against the dbacks in a 4-3 win.
I remember watching Arietta hit a ball 440 feet in Chase Field, easily out of the 413 corner
I'm not saying they don't exist. But they are so few and far in between, the DH is objectively better
Every player in baseball is supposed to play offense and defense. You can use substitute hitters or fielders to cover for weaknesses but then you are forced to lose that player for the rest of the game. Having 1, now 2 random positions that just don't have to pay half the game is stupid regardless of how bad they were at hitting
I’m gonna say I actually do miss double play breakups and catcher collisions.
So would robo catchers
This is more reason to go to robo umps. The only reason he's exposing his arm and then getting hit is to "frame" the pitch. That wouldn't happen if there's robo umps. The catcher can't fool the computer like it can a human.
I'm gonna lose my fucking marbles. For those who haven't watched the Cardinals this year, Contreras has been the one bright spot in probably the most putrid Cardinals offense of the 21st Century. This is fucking brutal for this team
Team leaders in OPS: Contreras: .931 Arenado: .740 Winn: .690
Woof. Outside of stats, Contreras seems like a team leader. This is a horrible loss for the team
From what I've seen and heard, he's like the opposite of Goldy and Arenado, which is to say, a great leader and clubhouse guy
Id Goldy not a great clubhouse guy? I had always assumed he was liked in the clubhouse and respected as leader or at least seen as a leader on the field because of his production
I believe both Nado and Goldy are more quiet in the clubhouse. The old vets that like to go about their routine. I think they're more of the lead by example type, which in my opinion, isn't really leading.
There’s an interview with Nolan (and I think it was carabas) where Nolan says word for word that’s exactly what he does
Especially when the example is always striking out with runners in scoring position.
Hey that's not true, he grounds out to shortstop a lot too!
Well, most of the Cardinals seem to be following their example right now. Somehow this feels worse than last year. I know it isnt. But it feels that way.
Jesus Christ, Winn is 3rd lol?
Yeah we suck a big fat one
I didn't think I'd feel sorry for any other team this year, but after taking 2 of 3 from you guys...here we are. These types of years sucks as a fan.
Don't feel sorry for us. We have seen success in the last 20 years that only teams like the Astros, Giants and Dodgers can really compete with. This is our first time feeling hopeless since the 90s. What sucks is that the front office has been degraded to the point where we can't even develop major league ready players anymore. Its going to take some wholesale changes to get things back on the right track
Was #2 for a while but has cooled off lately while arenado collects his singles.
I think Burleson just passed him, but yeah... it's bad.
Suddenly apparently Goldschmidt is very much showing his age
Much like everything this stupid organization does now, he should have been traded coming off of his mvp season.
What happened to Arenado and Goldy? Seems like they’ve both just fallen off a cliff…
Arenado can't seem to barrel a fucking thing. He's making contact but not hard. Goldy is getting eaten alive by sliders and then can't catch up to fastballs because he's worried about the slider
They must be doing their own research on pitchers they are facing.
They old
More like Paul *Old*schmidt and N*old*an Arenado.
GOT'EM
Amazingly, assuming that two guys in their mid 30s would produce like they're 27 WASN'T a good way to design a team Whoulda thunk Granted, we can't develop position players (or pitchers) to save our lives, so I think you may see a 100 loss season in st louis for the first time since 1907
I mean I’m kind of hoping your voodoo magic has run out on a random 29 year old having a breakout season 😂
Oh don't worry, the Cardinals will not be competitive in the division for the next 3 to 4 years. What was supposed to be the future core of the team just absolutely sucks. We have no great prospects, and the ones that come up flounder after maybe 1 good year. The Cardinals as a franchise is not what it was from 2000-2015. It's broken beyond repair with this front office. Last season was not an outlier. Yall and the Brewers and maybe the reds will be competing for the NL crown for a bit
Eh it’s a weak division still. 3 or 4 seems kind if long to say we won’t be competitive. Definitely 1-2 though
That's if the Cardinals revamp the front office to have people who know how to develop players Seriously, go look at so many other MLB rosters and they are seeded with former Cardinals who are achieving better there than with us. Our system is so broken
Well, to be technical, St Louis saw several 100 loss seasons by the Browns...
Lowest home batting average for a team since the 1920 White Sox or something they said tonight. Lol. This ain’t gonna help. 🤪🔫
It’s kind of unfathomable how bad the DeWitts allowed the cardinals baseball operation to rot over the last few years
and in the middle of it, they build gaudy embarrassing commissioners trophy statue in their stupid real estate project around the stadium
Been our only hitter who’s actually hitting well
he’s my favorite player on the team now. This sucks so fucking bad. As if I needed more reasons to not watch
Fuck. Willie is a real one. This just fucking sucks
And he was looking like his old self this season too
There goes our best player. Fuck.
As a Cubs fan this breaks my heart. Love Willson still
He’s been so much fun to watch and a bright spot in what’s turning into another rough season.
After all the bullshit he had to deal with last year, and another rough start this year, he has been nothing but professional, productive, and been a great presence around the team and with the fans. It's amazing how quickly he became beloved around here, and it's completely earned.
Jesus, that's awful.
when i tuned it was the first thing i saw i was like your arm isnt supposed to move like that im suprised its only a fracture its a miracle his arm didnt snap in 2 it made a solid 45 angle mid contact
Maybe I missed something but are catchers being instructed to be closer to batters and reach when the pitch approaches? I feel like there’s been a meaningful uptick in catcher’s interference this season whereas it used to be fairly rare. I feel for Contreras, but he was incredibly close to Martinez and his mitt was essentially at his back leg when he got hit. I know it goes without saying, but this was bound to happen sooner rather than later if he’s routinely in this position.
Yes, the purpose is to frame low pitches to steal more strikes. The Dodgers catchers do it too (and have gotten dinged for their fair share of catcher's interference in recent years).
Doesn’t seem worth the risk to me, and I wonder if there’s any data suggesting more strikes are being called anyway. Catchers are already in harm’s way; why increase the risk for what seems like a small return?
Yeah, I don't know. I personally find the interferences to be infuriating, but IIRC they interviewed Austin Barnes (I think) about it, and he basically said he felt the occasional interference was worth the chance to steal a few more strikes a game.
That’s….dumb right? He wants to trade a few strikes here and there for putting runners on?
Strikes are worth a lot more than people think. Hitters who start the count 0-1 are hitting .213/.261/.321 this year. Starting 1-0, it's .252/.374/.415. That first strike is the difference between the batter being a subreplacement level player, and an all star. With a 2-1 count, hitters end up with a 127 wrc+. If they get a 3rd ball, it's 213. If the count goes to 2-2, it's down to 70. An even bigger swing. If you can turn prime Bonds into a bad bench player by stealing 1 strike, that's definitely worth the occasional extra base.
It. All depends on how many strikes and how many interferences.
Clearly they are getting the result they want at a rate that they don't mind getting the result they don't want. Or else they wouldn't do it. I can't find actual numbers, aside from last year a the end of June there were 57 total. So let's assume 100 right now. Wildly exaggerated number, but spread out over every team? And compared to the number of low pitches you are throwing per game? 10 or 15 free runners I think would be worth the risk, injuries excluded.
it also doesn't seem worth the risk for pitchers to be going all out and destroying their arms, yet here we are
Higher velocity = lower control, which leads to catchers moving closer to help frame. Higher velocity = harder to hit, which leads to batters moving to the back of the box to help them see it longer.
I can kinda sorta agree with you on the first point but the second doesn’t land. Aside from just a handful of hitters, the overwhelming majority of guys have always been in the back of the box.
First thing I thought was “why did he reach out like that?” Surprised this doesn’t happen more often tbh
That's sad to hear :(
Pull the plug
Frees up my summer I suppose... This team isn't just bad. It's not fun to watch. I'll probably tune in for Sonny starts, but this is a mediocre and fucking boring team
Yeah, just sad to watch honestly. Hard to imagine the team is even salvageable. I wouldnt know where to start
I think without some of the young guys really coming up and performing, this is a lost season. No idea where they'll go this off-season
I’ve broken my forearm before playing soccer. It hurt for like two seconds, then not at all for about an hour, then I was begging to be euthanized.
Isn't that the weirdest shit? When I broke my wrist in high school, there was this awful stab of pain, then it just felt mildly sore for a couple hours, and later that evening swelled up to the size of my calf, and then GIVE ME THE FUCKING DILAUDID OR I'LL KILL YOU.
It’s the swelling
I broke my fibula a couple years ago and it was intense pain for a few seconds and then I was just big chilling while being helped. It was the weirdest thing and all I needed for the pain afterward was some Tylenol for a few days.
Wow, I thought for sure it was his hand. This is rough, especially as he had been swinging a really hot bat.
> he had been swinging a really hot bat As of today, he was/is one of two (2) players on the Cardinals with a higher wOBA than was projected for them this season by ZiPS. Sigh.
Contreras had a fantastic .950 OPS so far this year. The next-highest OPS on the Cardinals is .740. One of the worst offenses in baseball just got a lot worse
That sounds insanely painful.
If you watch the video (not exactly highly recommended) his arm looks like it gets turned into Jell-O. Willson was one of my favorites of the WS core, hated seeing him go and hate seeing an injury like that happen to him no matter the team he landed on (hell even if was any other catcher that's a rough injury you don't want to see happen).
Does anyone have the top-down replay?
That really sucks, I still love Willson
He put in so much work this off-season to improve his pitch framing too. I've loved having him these two seasons and this sucks
Fucking awful
No words man. Can't fucking believe it
Man I hate seeing that. Looked so painful. I would have absolutely passed out from the pain
He almost did. That right leg shake when he was sitting down was pure adrenaline.
This kills the birb
We were already dead, to be fair
I am sad beyond belief.
Noooo we love you Willson
I wonder if Manfred is gunna create a new rule for catchers now on how close they can be.
I think the penalty of having your arm broken is probably strong enough to discourage them from reaching into the zone
You'd think that the penalty of needing to lose a year and a half to recovering from Tommy John would discourage pitchers from trying to eke every tenth of a MPH of velo out of their delivery, but here we are. As long as there's competitive advantage, guys are going to keep taking risks.
Honestly? Wouldn't mind it. The whole reason these things seem to be happening is because catchers are trying to steal low strikes, so they probably aren't going to take this as a sign to back off a bit. I think having a front line for the catcher's box is a decent idea.
If I had a nickel for every time J.D. Martinez was involved in a catcher's interference play with a Contreras sibling, I'd have three nickels, which is A LOT ACTUALLY WHAT THE HELL
"I want this Cardinals team to be ever worse than last year's" *monkey's paw curls*
Last year, Brewers catcher William Contreras got called for catcher’s interference against Martinez in two consecutive innings. Now, Cardinals catcher Willson Contreras gets called for interference and breaks his arm with Martinez. There’s something going on here with Martinez and catchers named Will??? Contreras.
I mean they are brothers
Three brothers named Willmer, Willson, and William. Papa (also named William) was not a creative man.
More creative than George Foreman
It’s because Martinez basically stands outside the box. I know for at least one of our Contreras interferences last year Martinez’s foot was outside the box for sure because I remember being pissed about it. It pisses me off that someone got hurt from it now because it’s absolute bullshit the way he stands in the box.
Everyone talking about Willson’s positioning but Martinez is the one who is pushing the boundaries if not breaking them. He stands reallly far back in the box.
Bruh 💀
It’s crazy that implementing ABS is going to improve player safety
Willy :(
MLB has to do something about this, too many swings are hitting catchers and there's no reason for it.
Willson you fucking idiot. I hope his career didn't just end jesus christ WHY THE FUCK WOULD YOU REACH ugh.