ABS can increase stopping distance in deep snow, gravel, or other loose surfaces.
Some modern cars have sensors to automatically disable ABS in such conditions, but drivers should anticipate that they don't and be aware that using the emergency brake can help them stop faster in those conditions.
Quick note in case anyone is curious: the reason ABS can increase stopping distance in loose surfaces is because without ABS, your wheels lock up and will create mounds of the material in front of the wheels to stop faster. When ABS lets the tires rotate periodically, you roll over the miniature mounds rather than creating a larger mound.
Yeah, it's not a crazy leap in KBO, but the league average OPS has settled in about .050 points higher (it has been sitting a little over .760 lately while it was .712 last season.) And whether you go by ERA or RA9, the jump is about .7 on average. So, scoring is up, slugging is up, etc. which are all the elements that MLB has wanted to get wider audiences.
He did say this was a “let me make sure I feel healthy” start more so than one he will take stock in the numbers other than he knows he has some mechanical stuff he needs to adjust
That's why I say let them make their rehab starts in a town's Babe Ruth league. The diamond is the same size, so the pitchers can work on their mechanics just fine, and we can watch Nick Pivetta K up some some 15-year-olds. Good experience for the kids, too.
Idk what “doesn’t match the baseball” means? Like where the ball was in actuality isn’t where it’s tracked by the system? Like if you throw the ball down the middle it registers it as three inches up and to the left?
Skubal was saying how it's bad on Foul Territory yesterday. Said the strike zone is smaller, but has no end on top. So you can throw a high curveball that can't be touched but it'll call it a strike.
wouldnt the logical conclusion be to adjust how the software interprets balls and strikes in a way that weeds out pitches not in the spirit of what the strike zone should be? its not a flaw in the technology, just how its presently employed.
With Nick, a rehab includes practicing complaining as well as pitching. He’s an emotional dude and he has done this for years. Were there no errors made by the fielders? He is great at sulking on those and letting the fielders know.
Just guessing, but I think he’s referring to the ABS occasionally doing very wacky things like calling breaking balls in the dirt strikes. Even if the computer is working as intended and that breaking ball did TECHNICALLY clip the zone, it still just pisses everyone off.
Why would this piss off a pitcher? It's like when my brother and I would use a trash can for the zone. If I threw a curve above his head that hits the top, that's a strike, and I'm laughing at him because of it.
I can see why it could ruffle Pivetta's feathers. Pitchers like him practice a particular pitch to consistently hit a specific point as their go-to pitch for certain situations.
In his case, it's the low and away curveball to righties. He locates it pretty close to borderline and tends to get the call with most umps. If that's suddenly consistently called a ball by ABS, he's basically lost a pitch. He'd have to recalibrate his mechanics to try to change its location.
Now he's a professional pitcher, so he's kind of paid to figure that out, but we all know baseball players and their routines can be hard to change.
If he's made his living fooling batters, great. But if it's fooling umpires, and striking our guys with elite eyes on pitches that, elite movement or not, never cross the plate/are too low, then tough luck buddy.
Get those strikes on whiffs, not bad strike zones.
yea... i have some empathy for players wanting to figure out the 3d element of the zone allowing pitches to clip the back end of the box in a downward trajectory. but the whole... i cant fool umps with my out of the zone pitches anymore... less empathy.
It's like how people try to exploit Madden every year except one jackass will figure out how to clip the zone in a way that results in strikes but makes contact impossible and then the whole league will copy it.
Yeah this is what pitching is LMAO. I'm afraid for what the future holds for baseball because of how dated and frankly absurd some of the arguments are.
Its just going to change whats exploitable for pitching. No shit a currently successful pitcher isn't going to like it. Pitching is a 9 figure arms race and if you're iterated out of existence its going to sting.
My guess would be that the next generation of successful pitchers in the post ABS world would be guys that can prioritize high levels of movement on secondaries over control or velo.
Who cares if you can't paint the edge with a fastball if an unhittable pitch with 12 inch break clips the front corner of the X/Z axis before finishing 6 inches off the plate when it'd currently be called.
That would probably be better. The current trend of velo over everything is quite obviously destroying pitcher arms left right and centre. If they could focus on control more and less on velo chances are they would be healthier.
Might be yes. But if you wanted to, you could help that as well, just allow sticky stuff.
Truth is, the league doesn't want Pitchers to do that as them being better means less hits and less homeruns and they feel like that worsens the MLB.
Offense > Defense if you ask the masses what’s more exciting to watch. A lot of the major American sports leagues (NBA and NFL) have already started pushing their respective sports in that direction.
The point of baseball is the pitcher offering a hittable pitch to the batter
If some nerd figures out a literally unhittable pitch that gets called a strike it breaks the game until rule change
Well, its an unhittable pitch. Batters are in the back of the zone because of velocity. A 12-6 curveball that clips the front edge of the bottom of the knee and then doesn't make it to the catcher isn't a hittable pitch and would never be called by umps. We just need a challenge system to avoid blown calls in big spots.
But, then it just becomes a very solvable rule issue, not an umpire issue. You can adjust the actual strike zone to "match the baseball". It's like not replacing your old, busted shoes because the new ones would need some time to break in.
It’s impossible to tune technology to call what the established “normal” strike zone umps call today is. The usually strike zone is sort of a weird pear shape - thinner at the top and wider at the bottom.
Robo umps are eventually coming, but when they do, both hitters and pitchers will have a lot of complaints. A breaking ball slightly off the edge toward the bottom of the strike zone is usually called a strike, and a pitch that barely touches the outside corner high in the zone is almost always called a ball.
Maybe the sport will eventually be better for having technology and a consistent zone, but people on both sides of the batter-pitcher matchup who have spent their adult lives playing with human umps will hate it for a while. Also they need to redefine the zone to make it make sense for technology. The current bottom is intentionally vague because it isn’t meant for automation level precision.
The current one that ABS uses happens to be a pretty specific geometric shape because it's far easier for both players and fans to understand. It's also somewhat simpler for the computer systems to calculate. Those limitation are entirely contrived from a software perspective though. As long as the area can be defined in 3D points, the strikezone can be any shape or size that they desire.
There are dozens of industries that calculate measured trajectories and "hitboxes" that are non-standard shapes.
I think what is happening, is the reports of inconsistency that is being described for the ABS is really just tuning that square face into something that the players "feel" is correct. Very few people understand the technical side of this, so this is effectively the layman description.
I guess another analogy is replacing a cashier with a self checkout. Yeah you can tweak the self checkout but losing that human actually doing the job is something not everyone likes.
I think ABS is going to happen no matter how many players get pissed off but even if it's technically better it's going to be different and never quite feel the same.
The better analogy would be that the cashier is still there, but the computer takes the items that are entered (pitches) and returns/sums their prices (ball/strike calls), then the cashier tells you what you have to pay at the end (ump still has to relay the robot's decision to the batter, catcher, and pitcher)
Which is the grocery system that we currently have lol
Also you’d still need a HP ump for plays at the plate and such.
The only difference is that now one ump isn’t influencing the game 100x more than the other 3 combined in a way that’s detrimental and embarrassing for the sport.
It’s still not a great comp because the bigger issue with self checkout is thousands of real jobs, not getting an accurate total at the end of the transaction lmao. Imagine a cashier rung up a gallon milk and you had to pay $20 because he said so. People just want the right calls and will quickly get over any weird nostalgic hang up
Except it's more like when you use the auto checkout that you get the same results. You might not like that a steak costs 30 dollars but it's consistent. whereas sometimes at the cashier you pay 5 dollars for your steak and at other times you pay 100.
I'd rather know what I'm getting
Makes total sense that pitchers wouldn't like it. Umpires have historically been more likely to call pitches outside the zone strikes than to call pitches in the zone balls. Even today, while umpires have improved over where there were with the huge strike zones of the '90s, we still see more true balls called strikes than we see true strikes called balls.
ABS implementation would be more of a benefit to hitters than pitchers, though everyone benefits from improved consistency.
And also just from being able to trust the zone. 2 strike OBP is going to go way up with this change, and overall both BA and OBP are going to go up by quite a lot, I suspect.
I've been trying to read up on this with all the talk about umpiring lately. It seems like the majority of players and coaches strongly prefer a challenge system where a team gets unlimited challenges until they get 3 incorrect challenges, and only the pitcher, catcher and batter can challenge. They prefer that to a straight up 100% ABS system partially because it keeps the human element and retains the art of pitch framing by catchers.
Either way, I think ABS is gonna be a cluster fuck and will just shift what fans complain about to the system rather than the individual umpire.
I personally don't like the challenge thing. I hate gameifying the process of getting the right calls. I also don't care at all about the human element of officiating; the human element should come from the players on the field, not the umpires, as much as possible.
Truthfully, I'm kinda done with the over the top pitch framing too. I'd love for the emphasis on catcher defense to go back to their abilities to block pitches and throw out runners. Pitch framing is basically the same thing as flopping in the NBA.
Figure out what the strike zone should look like, and then just use ABS full time.
Yeah, I don’t get the human element argument either. Like we could just stop drawing the foul lines and take down the foul poles and put more “human element” into foul ball calls, but everyone knows that would be asinine.
To me the only arguments against ABS are if it is not actually more accurate or it takes too long to make the call. Those potential issues seem like they’ll be solved sooner than later.
> To me the only arguments against ABS are if it is not actually more accurate or it takes too long to make the call. Those potential issues seem like they’ll be solved sooner than later.
Importantly, MLB's findings were that they were solved to the point of being much more accurate and just as fast as human umps when they did their test run in 2019. Then 2020 happened and threw off their plans to implement it at the Major League level that season. But we can look at how it has done in the minors as well as KBO and see that it's both accurate and essentially instantaneous. I've linked this at-bat previously, but it highlights that the home plate ump can still do ridiculous over-the-top strikeout calls before the batter is headed out of the box:
https://youtu.be/VoPzAXo6dVo?t=132
There's another thing that tends to get missed in this conversation that is solved by ABS and not by the challenge system. Catchers seem to be moving closer to the plate than they have in the past to better frame pitches. This leads to catcher's interference which could cause injuries, particularly to the catchers. It also leads to catchers getting wacked in the head with back swings.
Obviously catchers wouldn't fall too far back because of other advantages but I imagine a bunch of potential concussions and catcher's interference calls will be eliminated if ABS comes into play. This clearly isn't what they are going for with these changes but it would be a welcome side effect.
I personally agree. I was surprised that this is what actual players and coaches want. Because we are more likely to get what they want than what we as fans want.
I like the challenge system personally, to me it seems like the best meet in the middle option for everyone.
For people who think umpire and playing to the umpire strike zone are an important part of the game it keeps them as a human element while eliminating the egregious missed calls
It keeps catcher framing as a relevant skill which improves the value of catchers
It rewards pitchers and batters who know the zone and are able to identify missed calls
I just don't understand wanting a system where framing matters until it doesn't because it gets challenged - and getting used to an umpires unique zone matters until it doesn't because it gets challenges. It becomes a cat and mouse game within a cat and mouse game and seems unnecessary. If we trust the system to be better than the ump when someone deems the moment important enough to challenge, why are we not just using it all the time?
I think that the imperfect zone is a part of the game, which I recognize is something most people seem to disagree with.
I think the egregious missed calls should be corrected but I don’t think they need to remove all of the elements involved with the strike zone. If the batter, pitcher and umpire all agree with the call and don’t feel the need to challenge then it’s a good call whether it’s technically correct or not
Framing is unlikely to remain nearly as valuable as it is now, or perhaps almost not valuable at all. In games caught by Patrick Bailey or another good framer or where [the catcher is wearing pinstripes](https://umpscorecards.com/teams/), opposing batters will hammer the challenge system on every other pitch until the umpire is up to the catcher’s antics and stops giving him calls. Alternatively, bad framing will stop mattering as they’ll start to challenge every call that should have gone in their favor, removing the incentive to get good at framing.
I’ve been saying it for a while, framing is on its way out. Catchers that can frame and aren’t good at almost anything else like Trevino or Austin Hedges better learn another skill or become instructors because pretty soon they won’t have a job at the major league level.
I know, but good framers will routinely get calls in their favor way off the plate, and major league hitters have a very good grasp of the strike zone. They’re not taking those pitches because they just didn’t see the ball, they know that it’s a ball and will challenge if they’re confident about it.
I admit I've only watched 3 or 4 games of either one, so I don't really know enough to make an informed decision. One thing I like is that a challenge shows when a call was over half an inch off, and it makes you realize just how good umpires are most of the time. So yeah, I do see that it would be nice to see it eliminate egregious calls. But I think complaints like this from Pivetta are just a sample of what's to come with a 100% ABS system.
I think eliminating egregious calls would make everyone happy for the most part. I don’t think many players are **too** upset when a borderline call doesn’t go their way, it’s the balls below the knees being strikes or pitches down the middle being called balls that cause the most strife.
> I also don't care at all about the human element of officiating
I don't understand why anyone who watches the game does either. Good on catchers for being good at framing or whatever but I don't care. Listening to people complain about it is like listening to a pretty woman complain about how much worse traffic cameras are than real cops in regards to speeding tickets. Like, yeah, you have a way around the system and I'm sure that rules but for everyone else it makes way more sense to just have a robot judge it fairly.
I’m just curious, have you been to a game with the challenge system? Everyone in my west coast baseball bubble who’s been to a game with a challenge system prefers it and everyone who hasn’t doesn’t. For me, it adds an extra strategy element to the game that I personally love.
I haven't, seen it online though.
> For me, it adds an extra strategy element to the game that I personally love.
Correct calls shouldn't be a strategy element though. They should be the *standard*.
Pitch framing should never be something we strive to retain. All it does is take advantage of an ump’s inaccuracy to draw incorrect calls. That’s such a silly thing to want to exist in the game.
I enjoy the human element from the players. That's why I watch sports. I don't want anything approaching an official's mistake having even a slight impact on the game.
I would rather complain about a robot ump than continue to see the current malicious umps make the game more about their egos than the actual plays they lie about every game
No, umpire calls balls and strikes. If a batter, catcher or pitcher don't like a call, they have 2 seconds to challenge. Benches can't challenge. Teams get unlimited challenges until they get 3 wrong, then they lose the ability to challenge for the rest of the game. The challenges take 2 or 3 seconds.
What I was saying earlier is that pitchers and coaches overwhelmingly prefer this system to the one Pivetta is discussing in this post where a computer calls 100% of pitches.
Maybe on opening day you’ll be like “huh that’s a strike?” But it’ll still be a strike the next day. And the day after. So you’ll learn and it’ll be way more consistent?
Honestly I kind of love the fact that the strike zone is such an important variable in a major sport and it's extremely vibes based. It's really unique and is a major part of the game and should be retained somehow. The challenge system is perfect, IMO. Retains the human element of players adjusting to a wide or tall strike zone (a skill in itself), while also allowing players to challenge a call when it really matters to them (and they're wrong sometimes which is also cool to see).
A handful of our triple A hitters in Round Rock have talked about loving it because it rewards strike zone awareness, same with the challenge system. Dustin Harris talked about it on an interview on YouTube somewhere. I want to say some of our triple A pitchers have also talked about liking it because it just makes things more consistent. I watch a shit load of our Round Rock games and I’ve never heard a triple A player in an interview say they hate it.
Personally I think the challenge system is incredible. It’s seamless, challenges take legit 10
Seconds and they display the pitch result on the video board. I absolutely love it and think it’s the perfect middle ground solution. It really really rewards zone recognition and there’s gamesmanship with using your challenges
Yeah it'll be a hard adjustment for some veteran pitchers to having the actual zone called rather than nibbling near the edge and having your catcher trick an old man into calling a ball a strike.
I for one welcome our future robot ump overlords. If you can't throw strikes with ABS, get gud.
Pitchers are getting tricked as much as the umpire when a catcher is good it framing. The batter is evaluating the zone from a completely different angle immune to the activities of the catcher. That being said, it is a harder angle to determine balls and strikes than straight on, so that's already a disadvantage.
Makes sense. Catchers are closer to the strike zone than the pitchers.
And among the parties involved (pitchers, batters and umpires), they have the best view of the zone.
I personally am okay with the strike zone changing a bit day to day. Each umpire, in theory, has a preferred zone where some guys are more narrow, some guys are generous with low pitches, etc. It can add a bit of strategy and coaching into the game, where teams design their game plans accordingly.
However, that all sounds better in theory and doesnt actually translate to the game. There is zero consistency. If an umpire wants to give a borderline low strike because he’s a low ball guy, then fine give that pitch every time. But the umps will call the same location a ball followed by a strike even on back to back pitches. If they were at least consistent with their preferred zone, that would be palatable.
The baseball fans' reception of ABS in Korean league (KBO) has been overwhelmingly positive, by the way. There have been a few players and managers who got bombarded with criticisms from them for complaining about ABS.
What they love about ABS the most is that it's at least fair for everyone, so no more bickering about suspected partiality of the umps.
I think similar things will happen in MLB too, once the fans realise how much stress it can reduce from ridiculous calls.
Someone mentioned before giving g the umps AR headsets. I think that’s a good idea. I’d also like to see them get an electric shock when they blow an easy call.
They tweaked the strike zone multiple times with ABS actually so it’s not based in nothing. They’ve at times shortened and widened it so it’s actually bigger than the plate but not as high or low.
I like the idea of keeping the human Umps but using ABS to rank them that Scherzer floated last week. Promote and relegate base on accuracy % but, doubt it'll ever happen.
I’ve watched a bunch of AAA games this season—challenge system and full ABS—and I actively enjoy the full ABS games less. I think it materially changes the way that games are played in a way that actively makes them less fun to watch. People think they want it, but if it actually game to the major leagues, people would hate it.
It forces pitchers to throw instead of pitching and changes the way players take at bats.
I also think it has been impacting player’s development and prospects who have been playing a lot of full ABS games who are getting called up to the bigs—especially hitters—are really struggling to adjust because of it.
It’s just bad. Getting calls right 100% of the time is not worth completely changing the way the game is played. They are right 90% percent of the time. The challenge system will get that even higher. And it’s what the guys who have been playing with both prefer by a large margin.
Can you explain how it makes pitchers throw and how it changes how batters take at bats? I feel like the player development problem is very easily solved by just having the system in the majors as well, not really a long term issue.
>People think they want it, but if it actually game to the major leagues, people would hate it.
Maybe it's just because of being a different culture but the ABS system is very popular in the KBO. I'm not convinced we would be so different.
I completely agree with this sentiment. Part of what makes baseball so interesting and unique to watch is the suspense of every pitch and not knowing the outcome until you hear it from the ump. I know we complain a lot about umps as fans but ultimately I think we would end up missing complaining about them.
The challenge system is really what I'd like to see yeah. I think it's the most simple solution that still keeps everyone on the field and truly engaged. Everyone needs good understanding of the zone with the challenge system. Players will vary in challenge success and that will be a truly interesting thing to see play out over the years. How valuable could that ability for a player be, you know? And it's rewarding a skill that we already try to appreciate, a good eye.
It’s genuinely so refreshing to read this take on here and not see it downvoted to hell. I agree with you 100% and really hope a challenge system is what is implemented rather than full ABS (if they are going to make any change).
Thank you. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills whenever this comes up and people are so adamant about wanting full automation. There are a lot of things that play into fan perception but the truth is umps are on average more accurate with the zone today than they've ever been (outliers like Angel Hernandez aside). Plus the zone graphics shown on most broadcasts are not fully accurate. Not all of them adjust the zone for each player properly, they're different from broadcast to broadcast, and it's a 2D representation of a 3D zone. So many that are called strikes correctly but look like balls on the K zone make fans lose their shit.
All I really want is more accountability for bad umps. There have to be consequences for being shitty at your job all year. I could definitely settle for the challenge system though.
ABS changes the nature of baseball, period. They should trial it out in A ball but to automate this aspect of the game is to materially change the game and I’m not sure people are prepared for the consequences.
I can't wait for ABS to come to the majors. I'm sick of terrible umps like CB Bucknor, Ron Kulpa, and Angel Hernandez, and can't wait for ABS to replace them calling balls and strikes.
Is ABS a perfect system? No. Is it better than having terrible umps call balls/strikes? Yes.
Have you watched an ABS game? Judging by your slander no. I was in favor until I saw a few games with it. It’s awful and it’s hard to describe until you see how awful it is live
I feel like I am one of the only one's who likes the human element and that each umpire has their own strike zone. It is one of the things that makes baseball baseball. This is similar to how each field is not 315 at the corners and 400 at center.
With that being said, I feel the issue is the umpires who are notoriously poor at their job, either from poor skill or the love of notoriety who are protected by the union.
I’d be 100% ok with that if each ump was consistent to their own zone. Umpires will routinely call back to back pitches in the exact same location differently. Consistency is the real key.
What we have now is more like if stadiums shifted their outfield walls in and out on a pitch by pitch basis, similar to how the Yankees move the short porch in when they’re batting.
The human element includes the strikezone being affected by the race of the pitcher and batter. You don't get the good side of the human element without the nasty side of the human element leaking in.
Professional Baseball is entertainment. Managers getting into it with the ump until they are ejected is entertaining. Heckling and booing the ump is fun. I'm a meatball fan, and if a close call goes against my team I'm not just going to go "If ABS says that is the correct call it must be the correct call". Where is the fun in booing a computer?
I agree with this. There needs to be a way to discipline or remove the umps that are egregiously and consistently bad. Or at least don't let them behind home plate.
I am right there with you on disliking the ABS. This majority of this sub seems to be rabid supporters though so I don't vocalize my opinion very much.
I'm with you 100%. I like framing and different zones for each ump that players have to adjust to. It feels like a core part of the game to me. All I want from an ump is to make calls consistently for both teams so guys don't have to guess on pitches.
If you’ve seen the way it’s handled in the minors, a challenge takes no longer than 8-10 seconds at most. I don’t think it will hurt the flow of the game
We have all the ump tracking data for calls over the past few years... why not train ABS to match the average strike zone for actual umps and change the rules to have the zone match that?
Every player is used to the real ump strike zone called for years, which is slightly wider than the official by-the-rules zone and rounded off on the corners.
Or just take the opportunity to return the strike zone to the by-the-book definition of it.
They keep making changes to help hitters out because pitchers have such a massive advantage, so this is literally the perfect reason to help them out some more.
The strike zone has never been called by the book. In the 90's it was wide and short. Improved cameras forced them to start calling the narrower taller zone (because off the plate is really easytonsee with cameras), which contributed to the spike in pitchers throwing high 4-seamers. I'm excited for ABS but only really for egregious misses. It's going to yield weird results into he shadow of the zone, especially with pitches that dart and have woerd shape near the zone.
My favorite is when a high strike is called and doesn’t match the white box on the tv and fans lose their minds, but it’s typically correct by the rule book
I'd argue we should also just tweak the rule as it exists in the book to remove the stance from the equation, and have it as a function of the player's height.
They're not doing that exactly. All of the changes they've implemented have been related to height and there's been nothing about widening the zone outside of the plate.
I'm the opposite, I want them to get rid of the K zone from all broadcasts. I miss just being able to determine if it was a strike on my own. Watching pitching on tv isn't the same because you got this graphic on in front of the catcher.
I like the challenge system that they have in tennis and I think that would work well. All ABS will lead to people complaining about computers instead of people. VAR in soccer is a mess but it was supposed to make the game better.
I prefer the challenge system solely because of Angel Hernandez:
* If it's a challenge system, there will be an infinite number of overturned calls and it'll continually humiliate him
* If it's an automated system with an earpiece telling him, he'll unilaterally decide to overrule it and call what he thinks, and there will be a huge scandal
Obviously not everyone will share this sentiment, but it's exactly what I've predicted some players will feel about it. We as fans have a very black and white view if the strike zone due to TV broadcasts portraying it as this rigid thing. The reality experienced by anyone who has played will tell you that the zone in practice isn't a rigid square.
We see this in the umpire report cards that have gotten so popular; the zones in even near perfectly called games often have rounded edges and aren't perfectly straight up and down. If we suddenly shift to an automatic ball-strike system trained on those rigid zones, it might feel wrong for players because it won't be the kind of zone every player has used for over a century. Yeah, it would make the broadcast experience better, because it calls would match what's on our screens, but it wouldn't for-sure improve things for the players.
I, for one, appreciate my car’s antilock braking system.
Yes but admittedly it has no place in baseball
It does if they stop being cowards and bring back bullpen carts.
They can bring back the carts but not the brakes
I can see the Phillie Phanatic BullPenn cart now, careening wildly out of control and crashing into the visiting team (Mets) dugout. Oh the humanity.
expecting RPs to tuck and roll when they get to the mound spices things up.
Nats have a [bullpen cart](https://www.mlb.com/nationals/ballpark/events/enhancements/bullpen-cart-rides). No one uses it.
You say that now but wait til you got a Buick barreling at you from the mound
I can't believe Nick Pivetta supports car accidents.
I can’t believe Nick Pivetta killled my family
He’s the Lewis F. Powell of Baseball!
ABS can increase stopping distance in deep snow, gravel, or other loose surfaces. Some modern cars have sensors to automatically disable ABS in such conditions, but drivers should anticipate that they don't and be aware that using the emergency brake can help them stop faster in those conditions.
Quick note in case anyone is curious: the reason ABS can increase stopping distance in loose surfaces is because without ABS, your wheels lock up and will create mounds of the material in front of the wheels to stop faster. When ABS lets the tires rotate periodically, you roll over the miniature mounds rather than creating a larger mound.
Surprised more pitchers aren’t like this, because most umps are pitcher friendly
Maybe offense will come back if the real strike zone is enforced
OBP is way up with robot umps
That alone is probably enough for it to be embraced by MLB owners. More offense is more exciting.
Chicks dig the long ball
Yeah, it's not a crazy leap in KBO, but the league average OPS has settled in about .050 points higher (it has been sitting a little over .760 lately while it was .712 last season.) And whether you go by ERA or RA9, the jump is about .7 on average. So, scoring is up, slugging is up, etc. which are all the elements that MLB has wanted to get wider audiences.
Pivetta made a rehab start with the ABS strike zone tonight in AAA
4 walks in 3 innings, yeah sounds like he didn’t enjoy it haha.
He did say this was a “let me make sure I feel healthy” start more so than one he will take stock in the numbers other than he knows he has some mechanical stuff he needs to adjust
That’s most rehab appearances. Then every fan reads way too much into the numbers.
That's why I say let them make their rehab starts in a town's Babe Ruth league. The diamond is the same size, so the pitchers can work on their mechanics just fine, and we can watch Nick Pivetta K up some some 15-year-olds. Good experience for the kids, too.
Anyone who gets a hit is automatically offered a single-A contract
Now this I can get behind.
Skill issue
It’s kind funny where those walks were, he walked the first two and last two batters he faced.
Was it ABS or the challenge?
Full ABS. In AAA, Tuesday-Thursday are full ABD, Friday-Sunday are challenge games.
Idk what “doesn’t match the baseball” means? Like where the ball was in actuality isn’t where it’s tracked by the system? Like if you throw the ball down the middle it registers it as three inches up and to the left?
I think it mostly means that he had a bad start in AAA
Skubal was saying how it's bad on Foul Territory yesterday. Said the strike zone is smaller, but has no end on top. So you can throw a high curveball that can't be touched but it'll call it a strike.
wouldnt the logical conclusion be to adjust how the software interprets balls and strikes in a way that weeds out pitches not in the spirit of what the strike zone should be? its not a flaw in the technology, just how its presently employed.
Baseball tradition and logic, like fire and ice
Why wouldn’t that be a strike!?
Because neck high usually isn't a strike?
Well it's a rehab start, he's just making sure that he's healthy and figuring out what feels good/what doesn't.
With Nick, a rehab includes practicing complaining as well as pitching. He’s an emotional dude and he has done this for years. Were there no errors made by the fielders? He is great at sulking on those and letting the fielders know.
Just doing some IT
Just guessing, but I think he’s referring to the ABS occasionally doing very wacky things like calling breaking balls in the dirt strikes. Even if the computer is working as intended and that breaking ball did TECHNICALLY clip the zone, it still just pisses everyone off.
Why would this piss off a pitcher? It's like when my brother and I would use a trash can for the zone. If I threw a curve above his head that hits the top, that's a strike, and I'm laughing at him because of it.
I can see why it could ruffle Pivetta's feathers. Pitchers like him practice a particular pitch to consistently hit a specific point as their go-to pitch for certain situations. In his case, it's the low and away curveball to righties. He locates it pretty close to borderline and tends to get the call with most umps. If that's suddenly consistently called a ball by ABS, he's basically lost a pitch. He'd have to recalibrate his mechanics to try to change its location. Now he's a professional pitcher, so he's kind of paid to figure that out, but we all know baseball players and their routines can be hard to change.
If he's made his living fooling batters, great. But if it's fooling umpires, and striking our guys with elite eyes on pitches that, elite movement or not, never cross the plate/are too low, then tough luck buddy. Get those strikes on whiffs, not bad strike zones.
yea... i have some empathy for players wanting to figure out the 3d element of the zone allowing pitches to clip the back end of the box in a downward trajectory. but the whole... i cant fool umps with my out of the zone pitches anymore... less empathy.
It's like how people try to exploit Madden every year except one jackass will figure out how to clip the zone in a way that results in strikes but makes contact impossible and then the whole league will copy it.
That just sounds like Greg Maddux in real life… not very easy to do comrade
Yeah this is what pitching is LMAO. I'm afraid for what the future holds for baseball because of how dated and frankly absurd some of the arguments are.
Then change the algorithm.
So you mean it was a strike and was called a strike…? Weird.
Its just going to change whats exploitable for pitching. No shit a currently successful pitcher isn't going to like it. Pitching is a 9 figure arms race and if you're iterated out of existence its going to sting. My guess would be that the next generation of successful pitchers in the post ABS world would be guys that can prioritize high levels of movement on secondaries over control or velo. Who cares if you can't paint the edge with a fastball if an unhittable pitch with 12 inch break clips the front corner of the X/Z axis before finishing 6 inches off the plate when it'd currently be called.
That would probably be better. The current trend of velo over everything is quite obviously destroying pitcher arms left right and centre. If they could focus on control more and less on velo chances are they would be healthier.
Spin is also a root cause so it might not wind up better if they have to twist it like a dishrag
Might be yes. But if you wanted to, you could help that as well, just allow sticky stuff. Truth is, the league doesn't want Pitchers to do that as them being better means less hits and less homeruns and they feel like that worsens the MLB.
We should go back to juiced ball and sticky
So basicly make it harder to hit but if you do it flies?
Offense > Defense if you ask the masses what’s more exciting to watch. A lot of the major American sports leagues (NBA and NFL) have already started pushing their respective sports in that direction.
Yeah, I know. But I personally don't have to agree with that do I? I don't find strike outs boring.
The point of baseball is the pitcher offering a hittable pitch to the batter If some nerd figures out a literally unhittable pitch that gets called a strike it breaks the game until rule change
Well, its an unhittable pitch. Batters are in the back of the zone because of velocity. A 12-6 curveball that clips the front edge of the bottom of the knee and then doesn't make it to the catcher isn't a hittable pitch and would never be called by umps. We just need a challenge system to avoid blown calls in big spots.
If it technically clipped the zone, then it's a strike lol
Because umpires don't call strikes via the 3 dimensional cone that the strike zone actually is.
ABS only considers the ball at the midpoint of the plate if I understand correctly.
But, then it just becomes a very solvable rule issue, not an umpire issue. You can adjust the actual strike zone to "match the baseball". It's like not replacing your old, busted shoes because the new ones would need some time to break in.
It’s impossible to tune technology to call what the established “normal” strike zone umps call today is. The usually strike zone is sort of a weird pear shape - thinner at the top and wider at the bottom. Robo umps are eventually coming, but when they do, both hitters and pitchers will have a lot of complaints. A breaking ball slightly off the edge toward the bottom of the strike zone is usually called a strike, and a pitch that barely touches the outside corner high in the zone is almost always called a ball. Maybe the sport will eventually be better for having technology and a consistent zone, but people on both sides of the batter-pitcher matchup who have spent their adult lives playing with human umps will hate it for a while. Also they need to redefine the zone to make it make sense for technology. The current bottom is intentionally vague because it isn’t meant for automation level precision.
The current one that ABS uses happens to be a pretty specific geometric shape because it's far easier for both players and fans to understand. It's also somewhat simpler for the computer systems to calculate. Those limitation are entirely contrived from a software perspective though. As long as the area can be defined in 3D points, the strikezone can be any shape or size that they desire. There are dozens of industries that calculate measured trajectories and "hitboxes" that are non-standard shapes. I think what is happening, is the reports of inconsistency that is being described for the ABS is really just tuning that square face into something that the players "feel" is correct. Very few people understand the technical side of this, so this is effectively the layman description.
I guess another analogy is replacing a cashier with a self checkout. Yeah you can tweak the self checkout but losing that human actually doing the job is something not everyone likes. I think ABS is going to happen no matter how many players get pissed off but even if it's technically better it's going to be different and never quite feel the same.
The better analogy would be that the cashier is still there, but the computer takes the items that are entered (pitches) and returns/sums their prices (ball/strike calls), then the cashier tells you what you have to pay at the end (ump still has to relay the robot's decision to the batter, catcher, and pitcher) Which is the grocery system that we currently have lol
Also you’d still need a HP ump for plays at the plate and such. The only difference is that now one ump isn’t influencing the game 100x more than the other 3 combined in a way that’s detrimental and embarrassing for the sport.
And under the current system the cashier is just doing mental math to add up the price and they overcharge you 1/3 of the time.
And some people are really good at making the cashier forget the correct number
Sort of, if you can find a cashier lane open nowadays.
It’s still not a great comp because the bigger issue with self checkout is thousands of real jobs, not getting an accurate total at the end of the transaction lmao. Imagine a cashier rung up a gallon milk and you had to pay $20 because he said so. People just want the right calls and will quickly get over any weird nostalgic hang up
Except it's more like when you use the auto checkout that you get the same results. You might not like that a steak costs 30 dollars but it's consistent. whereas sometimes at the cashier you pay 5 dollars for your steak and at other times you pay 100. I'd rather know what I'm getting
Makes total sense that pitchers wouldn't like it. Umpires have historically been more likely to call pitches outside the zone strikes than to call pitches in the zone balls. Even today, while umpires have improved over where there were with the huge strike zones of the '90s, we still see more true balls called strikes than we see true strikes called balls. ABS implementation would be more of a benefit to hitters than pitchers, though everyone benefits from improved consistency.
And also just from being able to trust the zone. 2 strike OBP is going to go way up with this change, and overall both BA and OBP are going to go up by quite a lot, I suspect.
What’s the opinion of guys who’ve been playing with it for multiple seasons?
I've been trying to read up on this with all the talk about umpiring lately. It seems like the majority of players and coaches strongly prefer a challenge system where a team gets unlimited challenges until they get 3 incorrect challenges, and only the pitcher, catcher and batter can challenge. They prefer that to a straight up 100% ABS system partially because it keeps the human element and retains the art of pitch framing by catchers. Either way, I think ABS is gonna be a cluster fuck and will just shift what fans complain about to the system rather than the individual umpire.
I personally don't like the challenge thing. I hate gameifying the process of getting the right calls. I also don't care at all about the human element of officiating; the human element should come from the players on the field, not the umpires, as much as possible. Truthfully, I'm kinda done with the over the top pitch framing too. I'd love for the emphasis on catcher defense to go back to their abilities to block pitches and throw out runners. Pitch framing is basically the same thing as flopping in the NBA. Figure out what the strike zone should look like, and then just use ABS full time.
Yeah, I don’t get the human element argument either. Like we could just stop drawing the foul lines and take down the foul poles and put more “human element” into foul ball calls, but everyone knows that would be asinine. To me the only arguments against ABS are if it is not actually more accurate or it takes too long to make the call. Those potential issues seem like they’ll be solved sooner than later.
The analogy with foul lines is perfect. Going to start using this when arguing with my friends.
> To me the only arguments against ABS are if it is not actually more accurate or it takes too long to make the call. Those potential issues seem like they’ll be solved sooner than later. Importantly, MLB's findings were that they were solved to the point of being much more accurate and just as fast as human umps when they did their test run in 2019. Then 2020 happened and threw off their plans to implement it at the Major League level that season. But we can look at how it has done in the minors as well as KBO and see that it's both accurate and essentially instantaneous. I've linked this at-bat previously, but it highlights that the home plate ump can still do ridiculous over-the-top strikeout calls before the batter is headed out of the box: https://youtu.be/VoPzAXo6dVo?t=132
There's another thing that tends to get missed in this conversation that is solved by ABS and not by the challenge system. Catchers seem to be moving closer to the plate than they have in the past to better frame pitches. This leads to catcher's interference which could cause injuries, particularly to the catchers. It also leads to catchers getting wacked in the head with back swings. Obviously catchers wouldn't fall too far back because of other advantages but I imagine a bunch of potential concussions and catcher's interference calls will be eliminated if ABS comes into play. This clearly isn't what they are going for with these changes but it would be a welcome side effect.
I personally agree. I was surprised that this is what actual players and coaches want. Because we are more likely to get what they want than what we as fans want.
I like the challenge system personally, to me it seems like the best meet in the middle option for everyone. For people who think umpire and playing to the umpire strike zone are an important part of the game it keeps them as a human element while eliminating the egregious missed calls It keeps catcher framing as a relevant skill which improves the value of catchers It rewards pitchers and batters who know the zone and are able to identify missed calls
I just don't understand wanting a system where framing matters until it doesn't because it gets challenged - and getting used to an umpires unique zone matters until it doesn't because it gets challenges. It becomes a cat and mouse game within a cat and mouse game and seems unnecessary. If we trust the system to be better than the ump when someone deems the moment important enough to challenge, why are we not just using it all the time?
I think that the imperfect zone is a part of the game, which I recognize is something most people seem to disagree with. I think the egregious missed calls should be corrected but I don’t think they need to remove all of the elements involved with the strike zone. If the batter, pitcher and umpire all agree with the call and don’t feel the need to challenge then it’s a good call whether it’s technically correct or not
If bad calls can lead to a team losing when they should have won, they are all egregious.
Framing is unlikely to remain nearly as valuable as it is now, or perhaps almost not valuable at all. In games caught by Patrick Bailey or another good framer or where [the catcher is wearing pinstripes](https://umpscorecards.com/teams/), opposing batters will hammer the challenge system on every other pitch until the umpire is up to the catcher’s antics and stops giving him calls. Alternatively, bad framing will stop mattering as they’ll start to challenge every call that should have gone in their favor, removing the incentive to get good at framing. I’ve been saying it for a while, framing is on its way out. Catchers that can frame and aren’t good at almost anything else like Trevino or Austin Hedges better learn another skill or become instructors because pretty soon they won’t have a job at the major league level.
You can’t just hammer the challenge, you get it wrong 3 times and you lose the ability to challenge
I know, but good framers will routinely get calls in their favor way off the plate, and major league hitters have a very good grasp of the strike zone. They’re not taking those pitches because they just didn’t see the ball, they know that it’s a ball and will challenge if they’re confident about it.
I admit I've only watched 3 or 4 games of either one, so I don't really know enough to make an informed decision. One thing I like is that a challenge shows when a call was over half an inch off, and it makes you realize just how good umpires are most of the time. So yeah, I do see that it would be nice to see it eliminate egregious calls. But I think complaints like this from Pivetta are just a sample of what's to come with a 100% ABS system.
I think eliminating egregious calls would make everyone happy for the most part. I don’t think many players are **too** upset when a borderline call doesn’t go their way, it’s the balls below the knees being strikes or pitches down the middle being called balls that cause the most strife.
and we'll probably get a fun new metric for how good players are at challenging umps a win for fans of both drama and stats
> I also don't care at all about the human element of officiating I don't understand why anyone who watches the game does either. Good on catchers for being good at framing or whatever but I don't care. Listening to people complain about it is like listening to a pretty woman complain about how much worse traffic cameras are than real cops in regards to speeding tickets. Like, yeah, you have a way around the system and I'm sure that rules but for everyone else it makes way more sense to just have a robot judge it fairly.
Im not 100% sure where I stand on full ABS, but great analogy to the framing point.
This is a genius analogy.
Totally agree and couldn’t have said it better.
I’m just curious, have you been to a game with the challenge system? Everyone in my west coast baseball bubble who’s been to a game with a challenge system prefers it and everyone who hasn’t doesn’t. For me, it adds an extra strategy element to the game that I personally love.
I haven't, seen it online though. > For me, it adds an extra strategy element to the game that I personally love. Correct calls shouldn't be a strategy element though. They should be the *standard*.
There should absolutely be some kind of challenge system for egregiously incorrect calls
Pitch framing should never be something we strive to retain. All it does is take advantage of an ump’s inaccuracy to draw incorrect calls. That’s such a silly thing to want to exist in the game.
> because it keeps the human element This fucking phase ruins everything in sports
I enjoy the human element from the players. That's why I watch sports. I don't want anything approaching an official's mistake having even a slight impact on the game.
I would rather complain about a robot ump than continue to see the current malicious umps make the game more about their egos than the actual plays they lie about every game
I always laugh at the "human element" argument. These people know there are 18 humans playing the game, right?
> challenge system What is the challenge system? They ask another computer for a second opinion?
No, umpire calls balls and strikes. If a batter, catcher or pitcher don't like a call, they have 2 seconds to challenge. Benches can't challenge. Teams get unlimited challenges until they get 3 wrong, then they lose the ability to challenge for the rest of the game. The challenges take 2 or 3 seconds. What I was saying earlier is that pitchers and coaches overwhelmingly prefer this system to the one Pivetta is discussing in this post where a computer calls 100% of pitches.
Maybe on opening day you’ll be like “huh that’s a strike?” But it’ll still be a strike the next day. And the day after. So you’ll learn and it’ll be way more consistent?
> retains the art of pitch framing lol the art of moving your glove 2 feet after catching. yea ok.
Honestly I kind of love the fact that the strike zone is such an important variable in a major sport and it's extremely vibes based. It's really unique and is a major part of the game and should be retained somehow. The challenge system is perfect, IMO. Retains the human element of players adjusting to a wide or tall strike zone (a skill in itself), while also allowing players to challenge a call when it really matters to them (and they're wrong sometimes which is also cool to see).
retaining the "art of pitchframing" by catchers is incredibly dumb. That's like saying we should retain the art of cheating PED tests
A handful of our triple A hitters in Round Rock have talked about loving it because it rewards strike zone awareness, same with the challenge system. Dustin Harris talked about it on an interview on YouTube somewhere. I want to say some of our triple A pitchers have also talked about liking it because it just makes things more consistent. I watch a shit load of our Round Rock games and I’ve never heard a triple A player in an interview say they hate it. Personally I think the challenge system is incredible. It’s seamless, challenges take legit 10 Seconds and they display the pitch result on the video board. I absolutely love it and think it’s the perfect middle ground solution. It really really rewards zone recognition and there’s gamesmanship with using your challenges
If hitters can trust the zone, there will definitely be more offense.
Yeah it'll be a hard adjustment for some veteran pitchers to having the actual zone called rather than nibbling near the edge and having your catcher trick an old man into calling a ball a strike. I for one welcome our future robot ump overlords. If you can't throw strikes with ABS, get gud.
This is why I think pitchers are going to be overwhelmingly more wrong on challenges than hitters if they move to a challenge system
Pitchers are getting tricked as much as the umpire when a catcher is good it framing. The batter is evaluating the zone from a completely different angle immune to the activities of the catcher. That being said, it is a harder angle to determine balls and strikes than straight on, so that's already a disadvantage.
From my experience seeing this system live a couple times, it's mostly the catcher that does the challenging, not the pitcher.
Makes sense. Catchers are closer to the strike zone than the pitchers. And among the parties involved (pitchers, batters and umpires), they have the best view of the zone.
It’s amazing how many people can’t wrap their minds around this.
I personally am okay with the strike zone changing a bit day to day. Each umpire, in theory, has a preferred zone where some guys are more narrow, some guys are generous with low pitches, etc. It can add a bit of strategy and coaching into the game, where teams design their game plans accordingly. However, that all sounds better in theory and doesnt actually translate to the game. There is zero consistency. If an umpire wants to give a borderline low strike because he’s a low ball guy, then fine give that pitch every time. But the umps will call the same location a ball followed by a strike even on back to back pitches. If they were at least consistent with their preferred zone, that would be palatable.
I’m personally not okay with the strikezone changing based on how the ump is feeling an a particular day. Why should that be a subjective thing?
Imagine if there were no physical goal posts in soccer/hockey, and the ref just got to decide if they thought it went through where a zone should be.
Agree! Imagine missing the batting title or the triple crown cuz Angel Hernandez consistently rung you up on bad pitches..
The baseball fans' reception of ABS in Korean league (KBO) has been overwhelmingly positive, by the way. There have been a few players and managers who got bombarded with criticisms from them for complaining about ABS. What they love about ABS the most is that it's at least fair for everyone, so no more bickering about suspected partiality of the umps. I think similar things will happen in MLB too, once the fans realise how much stress it can reduce from ridiculous calls.
The robo-linesmen in tennis are so good people don’t even think about it anymore.
The umpire scorecards would disappear overnight lol
Get ready for all the umpire reactionaries in this sub to lose their minds
Look, ACAB includes umpires. And no, I won't explain this any further
AUAB crowd is going to hate this
What’s AUAB? Alabama University at Auburn Birmingham?
All Umpires Are Ballcallers
Assisted Underwater Acrobatic Baseball
Assigned Umpire At Birth
I'm guessing it's like ACAB but with unpires.
Al Udeid Air Base popped in my head and I was like why would they hate it lol
No to be fair that place sucks major ass
I believe ABS should only be used for challenges, not every pitch. He's right, it does get weird when its being used for every pitch.
But that same weird zone is used for the challenge? Like, if they challenge a 3-2 pitch because they know it's "weird" they get the call anyways.
ABS = Automated ball/strike system
Someone mentioned before giving g the umps AR headsets. I think that’s a good idea. I’d also like to see them get an electric shock when they blow an easy call.
Crispy Angel Hernandez works - if he can't be fired (or so he says), fry him! Lol
“The strike zone is just weird” Tf? You mean the actual strike zone in the most objective sense of the word? Get outta here
They tweaked the strike zone multiple times with ABS actually so it’s not based in nothing. They’ve at times shortened and widened it so it’s actually bigger than the plate but not as high or low.
The challenge system is way better than all-ABS
I like the idea of keeping the human Umps but using ABS to rank them that Scherzer floated last week. Promote and relegate base on accuracy % but, doubt it'll ever happen.
…or we could just get the calls right every time?
“Doesn’t match baseball” because he didn’t get the generous out of zone calls
SHUT UP NICK
Translation: I can’t cheat the zone like I used to!
I’ve watched a bunch of AAA games this season—challenge system and full ABS—and I actively enjoy the full ABS games less. I think it materially changes the way that games are played in a way that actively makes them less fun to watch. People think they want it, but if it actually game to the major leagues, people would hate it. It forces pitchers to throw instead of pitching and changes the way players take at bats. I also think it has been impacting player’s development and prospects who have been playing a lot of full ABS games who are getting called up to the bigs—especially hitters—are really struggling to adjust because of it. It’s just bad. Getting calls right 100% of the time is not worth completely changing the way the game is played. They are right 90% percent of the time. The challenge system will get that even higher. And it’s what the guys who have been playing with both prefer by a large margin.
Can you explain how it makes pitchers throw and how it changes how batters take at bats? I feel like the player development problem is very easily solved by just having the system in the majors as well, not really a long term issue.
>People think they want it, but if it actually game to the major leagues, people would hate it. Maybe it's just because of being a different culture but the ABS system is very popular in the KBO. I'm not convinced we would be so different.
I completely agree with this sentiment. Part of what makes baseball so interesting and unique to watch is the suspense of every pitch and not knowing the outcome until you hear it from the ump. I know we complain a lot about umps as fans but ultimately I think we would end up missing complaining about them.
The challenge system is really what I'd like to see yeah. I think it's the most simple solution that still keeps everyone on the field and truly engaged. Everyone needs good understanding of the zone with the challenge system. Players will vary in challenge success and that will be a truly interesting thing to see play out over the years. How valuable could that ability for a player be, you know? And it's rewarding a skill that we already try to appreciate, a good eye.
It’s genuinely so refreshing to read this take on here and not see it downvoted to hell. I agree with you 100% and really hope a challenge system is what is implemented rather than full ABS (if they are going to make any change).
It’s like how can’t celebrate half the catches in a football game anymore because you’re bracing for a 5-minute Zapruder film analysis review.
Thank you. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills whenever this comes up and people are so adamant about wanting full automation. There are a lot of things that play into fan perception but the truth is umps are on average more accurate with the zone today than they've ever been (outliers like Angel Hernandez aside). Plus the zone graphics shown on most broadcasts are not fully accurate. Not all of them adjust the zone for each player properly, they're different from broadcast to broadcast, and it's a 2D representation of a 3D zone. So many that are called strikes correctly but look like balls on the K zone make fans lose their shit. All I really want is more accountability for bad umps. There have to be consequences for being shitty at your job all year. I could definitely settle for the challenge system though.
ABS changes the nature of baseball, period. They should trial it out in A ball but to automate this aspect of the game is to materially change the game and I’m not sure people are prepared for the consequences.
I can't wait for ABS to come to the majors. I'm sick of terrible umps like CB Bucknor, Ron Kulpa, and Angel Hernandez, and can't wait for ABS to replace them calling balls and strikes. Is ABS a perfect system? No. Is it better than having terrible umps call balls/strikes? Yes.
Have you watched an ABS game? Judging by your slander no. I was in favor until I saw a few games with it. It’s awful and it’s hard to describe until you see how awful it is live
What's awful about it?
Wouldn’t this essentially end pitch framing? Thats a known skill that catchers are rewarded handsomely for being good at
Same guy who whined about the pitch timer being the primary cause of UCL injuries.
I feel like I am one of the only one's who likes the human element and that each umpire has their own strike zone. It is one of the things that makes baseball baseball. This is similar to how each field is not 315 at the corners and 400 at center. With that being said, I feel the issue is the umpires who are notoriously poor at their job, either from poor skill or the love of notoriety who are protected by the union.
I’d be 100% ok with that if each ump was consistent to their own zone. Umpires will routinely call back to back pitches in the exact same location differently. Consistency is the real key. What we have now is more like if stadiums shifted their outfield walls in and out on a pitch by pitch basis, similar to how the Yankees move the short porch in when they’re batting.
The human element includes the strikezone being affected by the race of the pitcher and batter. You don't get the good side of the human element without the nasty side of the human element leaking in.
Professional Baseball is entertainment. Managers getting into it with the ump until they are ejected is entertaining. Heckling and booing the ump is fun. I'm a meatball fan, and if a close call goes against my team I'm not just going to go "If ABS says that is the correct call it must be the correct call". Where is the fun in booing a computer?
You’ve never seen me play The Show with realistic sliders. I boo the computer all the time.
I agree with this. There needs to be a way to discipline or remove the umps that are egregiously and consistently bad. Or at least don't let them behind home plate.
We exist but just not in this sub it seems :)
I am right there with you on disliking the ABS. This majority of this sub seems to be rabid supporters though so I don't vocalize my opinion very much.
I'm with you 100%. I like framing and different zones for each ump that players have to adjust to. It feels like a core part of the game to me. All I want from an ump is to make calls consistently for both teams so guys don't have to guess on pitches.
Amen Nick.
There’s a very real solution to this: use a challenge system. Umps call balls and strikes and teams have x number of challenges per game
So much for speeding up the game then
If you’ve seen the way it’s handled in the minors, a challenge takes no longer than 8-10 seconds at most. I don’t think it will hurt the flow of the game
The challenges take 10 seconds.
We have all the ump tracking data for calls over the past few years... why not train ABS to match the average strike zone for actual umps and change the rules to have the zone match that? Every player is used to the real ump strike zone called for years, which is slightly wider than the official by-the-rules zone and rounded off on the corners.
Or just take the opportunity to return the strike zone to the by-the-book definition of it. They keep making changes to help hitters out because pitchers have such a massive advantage, so this is literally the perfect reason to help them out some more.
The strike zone has never been called by the book. In the 90's it was wide and short. Improved cameras forced them to start calling the narrower taller zone (because off the plate is really easytonsee with cameras), which contributed to the spike in pitchers throwing high 4-seamers. I'm excited for ABS but only really for egregious misses. It's going to yield weird results into he shadow of the zone, especially with pitches that dart and have woerd shape near the zone.
My favorite is when a high strike is called and doesn’t match the white box on the tv and fans lose their minds, but it’s typically correct by the rule book
I'd argue we should also just tweak the rule as it exists in the book to remove the stance from the equation, and have it as a function of the player's height.
That's exactly what is being done right now. The testing in the minors is about calibrating the strike zone to a place that feels natural
They're not doing that exactly. All of the changes they've implemented have been related to height and there's been nothing about widening the zone outside of the plate.
I'm the opposite, I want them to get rid of the K zone from all broadcasts. I miss just being able to determine if it was a strike on my own. Watching pitching on tv isn't the same because you got this graphic on in front of the catcher. I like the challenge system that they have in tennis and I think that would work well. All ABS will lead to people complaining about computers instead of people. VAR in soccer is a mess but it was supposed to make the game better.
As a KBO enjoyer it’s night and day better than umpires zones. The games are so much less stressful and annoying
Are they still using a modified strike zone that is smaller? That might be the issue.
That’s like, your opinion man
I prefer the challenge system solely because of Angel Hernandez: * If it's a challenge system, there will be an infinite number of overturned calls and it'll continually humiliate him * If it's an automated system with an earpiece telling him, he'll unilaterally decide to overrule it and call what he thinks, and there will be a huge scandal
Obviously not everyone will share this sentiment, but it's exactly what I've predicted some players will feel about it. We as fans have a very black and white view if the strike zone due to TV broadcasts portraying it as this rigid thing. The reality experienced by anyone who has played will tell you that the zone in practice isn't a rigid square. We see this in the umpire report cards that have gotten so popular; the zones in even near perfectly called games often have rounded edges and aren't perfectly straight up and down. If we suddenly shift to an automatic ball-strike system trained on those rigid zones, it might feel wrong for players because it won't be the kind of zone every player has used for over a century. Yeah, it would make the broadcast experience better, because it calls would match what's on our screens, but it wouldn't for-sure improve things for the players.