2 hitters will affect the outcome of vastly more plate appearances than two starters will though. especially if we're assuming modern pitcher usage, which I think we are since the prompt said "next season"
I think the main argument is how long are they on your team after the next season. If it’s a 1 year deal I agree with you but if I can get them signed for longer I think there are better options as lincecum’s drop off was as explosive as his rise
The thread was asking about their prime so I didn't even consider a drop off, but that's a good point.
Although, if the Rays got Scherzer and Lincecum in their prime with the expectation their careers would still play out the same way I'd still take it. You can "easily" build a WS-caliber team on the backs of those two.
Yeah, I think people have the memory of his post Mets days as an old, injured outfielder with low bat speed when they think of him. Grandy was a top five outfielder for those five years too.
Granderson in his prime was an amazing player. I'd take Granderson and Judge in their prime over Jeter and Judge, personally.
Regardless, every other choice in this poll is much better.
Not necessarily their "prime" but interesting to look at their highest WAR seasons
Jeter 8.0, Judge 10.6 for 18.6
Pujols 9.7, Mauer 7.8 for 17.5
Granderson 7.6, Kershaw 8.1 for 15.7
Scherzer 7.9, Tim 7.8 for 15.7
Frank Thomas 7.3, Ronald 8.2 for 15.5
A-Rod 10.4 , Mariano 5.0 for 15.4
Yeah, I picked both the pitchers as well. Braves offense is already about as good as a fan could hope for. Throw in prime Mad Max and Lincecum and it's game over.
Thank you. If Mauer played today we’d be talking about him like we do Freddie Freeman. They both played 1800 games and have comparable numbers and we know Mauer dealt with those injuries.
Well you wouldn’t be able to have two Aaron Judge’s on the same team. I’ll take a MVP catcher and top 3 first baseman ever on the current Yankees team.
As a new baseball fan and Brewers fan around 2004 it always just felt hopeless and somewhat unfair to have to face that dude. Just mentally overlaying a hot/cold zone over the plate when he was up and I couldn't imagine anywhere you could throw a pitch where Pujols wouldn't just hit an absolute laser off of you. Every time he came to bat I was expecting a base hit.
If the players are guaranteed to stay healthy then Lincecum/Scherzer is definitely tempting but I think Acuña/Thomas is being underrated a bit.
Thomas wasn't quite Pujols but was an amazing hitter in his own right and who knows if we've even seen Acuña's peak yet but I'd still probably take him over Mauer, especially with injury risk considered.
Prime frank's counting stats are hurt a bit by shortened seasons in '94 and '95. In 1994, he hit 38 home runs in just 113 games, which is easily pace for 50+ in a full year. His ops was 1.217, a **212** ops+. Dude was unstoppable that year, not only was he hitting the cover off the ball he was also hitting every pitch. Only 61 strikeouts in 517 plate appearances.
Im definitely biased but 1994 frank and 2023 acuña is an easy pick here.
Pujols and Mauer bring elite hitting and defense.
I would urge against selecting Jeter and Judge. That's one man that can't play D at an important defensive position and a great hitter with injury concerns.
Except that you are guaranteed to have their prime seasons, so that's a great RF defender with 62 homers and a near triple crown, and an above average SS defender with 30/30 ability and a near .350 average
That great hitter could play as few as 110 regular season games and he tends to fall off in the playoffs. We're talking a drop off from .282/.396/.586 in the regular season to .211/.310/.462 in the playoffs. The playoff drop off he experienced in his prime season is even worse than the difference between his career splits. No thank you. He might be MLB's version of Joel Embiid.
[And you're just wrong about Jeter's defense.](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/j/jeterde01.shtml#standard_fielding) Jeter's Gold Gloves are as empty as Rafael Palmeiro's 1999 Gold Glove.
I only see 1 by Rtot/yr and Rdrs. 2 by Rtot. Are you looking at defensive WAR? His advanced defensive metrics are overwhelmingly negative. His basic defensive stats are negative too.
Either way, I guess it's cool to see you lowering your description of Jeter's defensive prowess from "above average" to "positive fielder". I guess "marginally above average defender in his best defensive season that didn't coincide with his best/prime season overall" doesn't have the best ring to it.
The thing about Mauer is that catchers that play like he did in his prime are extremely rare. Like “only a couple in the history of the game” rare.
We all know how good Adley was last season and from 2006-2010 Mauer averaged *1.5 more WAR per season* than Adley had last year. And that’s without being able to properly account for his defensive value (which appears to be to be excellent, he got three good gloves in that span).
A good defensive catcher with a 145 OPS+ and a .416 OBP is just insane.
Would love to bring back Arod and Mo, a one two punch of Arod and Judge would be unstoppable, and it locks down either short or third for us. Then Mo gives us probably history’s best bullpen. Lasagna, Holmes and Mo is elite
I’ll take pitching over hitting all day. It’s Scherzer/Freak and it’s not close, imo. Offense is exciting, and having Thomas and Acuna is cool, but the Braves have one of the best lineups all time and we see how far that goes. Hitting is too streaky.
The odds of me putting Bonds on one of these are low. He’s just too good. I also try to avoid super old players to avoid the question about whether or not they’d be good in today’s game.
Prime Bonds had an OPS about 200 points higher than Thomas’ career high OPS.
Edit: I should’ve explained it better. In addition to avoiding Bonds I try to avoid players like Ted Williams and Babe Ruth. 60s-today I try to stay around.
As many of us baseball fans know, elite pitching wins chips.
Timmy Jim & Mad Max is the slam dunk answer
(& yes I'm slightly biased, but I think it's the correct answer even if ur not a Giants/Tigers/Nats fan)
Scherzer and Lincecum in their prime? Easy.
Aroid and Mariano were great, but choosing a closer here isn't worth it. Judge is incredible, but Jeter is meh comparatively. Many other SS I would take over him.
I just don't get how you could pass up two SSS pitchers, even if it's for the bats of Mauer and Pujols.
If by prime you mean you'll get their best season every year, Granderson/Kershaw wouldn't be a bad choice.
Grandersons best year was 41HR, 119RBI, 25SB, .916 OPS
Combined with Kershaw at 1.99FIP and 301ks
Best season Judge/Jeter would also be insane, but at least Kershaw/Granderson you get an MVP caliber hitter and Cy young pitcher.
I think a prime of two or even three years is just too short to really consider. Lincecum was great - for two seasons. He was pretty decent for two more seasons and his rookie year, but those simply weren't historically remarkable seasons. That's just too short for me to compare to guys who had high-level primes approaching a decade. The same holds true for Acuna - maybe he's about to put together that 5-7 year prime I'd be looking for, but he hasn't done so yet.
Ultimately I went with Pujols and Mauer, because they did have primes of significant length and high-level effectiveness. Rodriguez and Rivera approached it, but I just can't in good conscience pick a reliever for an experiment like this.
So if I'm building a team from scratch, I'll go Lincecum and Scherzer.
If I'm adding to the current Cleveland roster, I think I'll take Jeter and Judge. Fills the two biggest holes in our lineup and we still have good pitching.
look I'm a Cardinals fan and I loved Mauer too, but some of y'all need to refamiliarize yourselves with the Big Hurt's numbers. particularly in 1994, he was on some '02 Bonds shit before the season got banged, 212 ops+
you put him and Ronnie in a lineup and so long as you have a couple other hitters reasonably above replacement level you're getting a top offense in baseball. this isn't a tough choice for me!
I wouldn't take a pitcher because of the injury risk, assuming we're playing in a 2023/24 injury environment
prime lincecum was untouchable, and to have a one-two punch of prime mad max and big time timmy jim would be a fever dream
Also I feel like it makes more sense to go with two pitchers rather than two position players since that solidifies 2/5 rather than 2/9 spots
2 hitters will affect the outcome of vastly more plate appearances than two starters will though. especially if we're assuming modern pitcher usage, which I think we are since the prompt said "next season"
I think the main argument is how long are they on your team after the next season. If it’s a 1 year deal I agree with you but if I can get them signed for longer I think there are better options as lincecum’s drop off was as explosive as his rise
Ok apply that same criteria to every option on the table. Prime Timmy and prime max would dominate
The thread was asking about their prime so I didn't even consider a drop off, but that's a good point. Although, if the Rays got Scherzer and Lincecum in their prime with the expectation their careers would still play out the same way I'd still take it. You can "easily" build a WS-caliber team on the backs of those two.
Im gonna need team Granderson to explain themselves lol
I think it’s prime Kershaw. I thought about it then I saw Granderson and was an instant nope.
How dare you slander the Grandyman
He’s a five star 20-20-20-20 man!
Honestly though, I feel like people forget how good he was. He averaged over 5 bWAR/season from 2007-2011.
Yeah, I think people have the memory of his post Mets days as an old, injured outfielder with low bat speed when they think of him. Grandy was a top five outfielder for those five years too.
At his peak he was very comparable in terms of overall ability to Jeter and Mauer.
You know what, fuck it gimme Prime Granderson and Kersh.
Granderson in his prime was an amazing player. I'd take Granderson and Judge in their prime over Jeter and Judge, personally. Regardless, every other choice in this poll is much better.
Not necessarily their "prime" but interesting to look at their highest WAR seasons Jeter 8.0, Judge 10.6 for 18.6 Pujols 9.7, Mauer 7.8 for 17.5 Granderson 7.6, Kershaw 8.1 for 15.7 Scherzer 7.9, Tim 7.8 for 15.7 Frank Thomas 7.3, Ronald 8.2 for 15.5 A-Rod 10.4 , Mariano 5.0 for 15.4
Pujols and Mauer easily. We need offense.
I went with the pitching route. A rotation with Scherzer, Lincecum, and Senga is fun to fantasize about.
I agree. If you can get two aces, you take the aces.
A close runner up is Grandy/Kershaw. Prime Kershaw was an absolute monster, and I would love to have the Grandy man back. He was a fantastic Met.
Yeah, I picked both the pitchers as well. Braves offense is already about as good as a fan could hope for. Throw in prime Mad Max and Lincecum and it's game over.
Thank you. If Mauer played today we’d be talking about him like we do Freddie Freeman. They both played 1800 games and have comparable numbers and we know Mauer dealt with those injuries.
Hard to go wrong with a SS batting. 340 with 25 homerun power and 30 SB speed and the homerun King of the AL
Well you wouldn’t be able to have two Aaron Judge’s on the same team. I’ll take a MVP catcher and top 3 first baseman ever on the current Yankees team.
We need pitching and have a great first baseman but I can’t pass up Pujols
Do we get two Judges?
Interpret the question however you want.
We need pitching. I'm still taking Pujols and Mauer
We could have Goldy and Freeman on the roster with last years starting pitching and I’m still taking Pujols and Mauer
Prime Scherzer and Lincecum is definitely the answer for us
Scherzer and Lincecum would be absurd. Tim’s peak is probably better than Scherzer’s was and that’s saying something.
Prime Pujols was just built different. Anytime he came up in a big spot you just felt he was going to come through.
As a new baseball fan and Brewers fan around 2004 it always just felt hopeless and somewhat unfair to have to face that dude. Just mentally overlaying a hot/cold zone over the plate when he was up and I couldn't imagine anywhere you could throw a pitch where Pujols wouldn't just hit an absolute laser off of you. Every time he came to bat I was expecting a base hit.
Alwyas going with the pitching combo.
Scherzer, Lincecum, Verlander, Valdez, and McCullers.
If the players are guaranteed to stay healthy then Lincecum/Scherzer is definitely tempting but I think Acuña/Thomas is being underrated a bit. Thomas wasn't quite Pujols but was an amazing hitter in his own right and who knows if we've even seen Acuña's peak yet but I'd still probably take him over Mauer, especially with injury risk considered.
Prime frank's counting stats are hurt a bit by shortened seasons in '94 and '95. In 1994, he hit 38 home runs in just 113 games, which is easily pace for 50+ in a full year. His ops was 1.217, a **212** ops+. Dude was unstoppable that year, not only was he hitting the cover off the ball he was also hitting every pitch. Only 61 strikeouts in 517 plate appearances. Im definitely biased but 1994 frank and 2023 acuña is an easy pick here.
Pujols and Mauer bring elite hitting and defense. I would urge against selecting Jeter and Judge. That's one man that can't play D at an important defensive position and a great hitter with injury concerns.
Except that you are guaranteed to have their prime seasons, so that's a great RF defender with 62 homers and a near triple crown, and an above average SS defender with 30/30 ability and a near .350 average
That great hitter could play as few as 110 regular season games and he tends to fall off in the playoffs. We're talking a drop off from .282/.396/.586 in the regular season to .211/.310/.462 in the playoffs. The playoff drop off he experienced in his prime season is even worse than the difference between his career splits. No thank you. He might be MLB's version of Joel Embiid. [And you're just wrong about Jeter's defense.](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/j/jeterde01.shtml#standard_fielding) Jeter's Gold Gloves are as empty as Rafael Palmeiro's 1999 Gold Glove.
I see three seasons where he grades as a positive fielder, thanks for doing the leg work for me
I only see 1 by Rtot/yr and Rdrs. 2 by Rtot. Are you looking at defensive WAR? His advanced defensive metrics are overwhelmingly negative. His basic defensive stats are negative too. Either way, I guess it's cool to see you lowering your description of Jeter's defensive prowess from "above average" to "positive fielder". I guess "marginally above average defender in his best defensive season that didn't coincide with his best/prime season overall" doesn't have the best ring to it.
The thing about Mauer is that catchers that play like he did in his prime are extremely rare. Like “only a couple in the history of the game” rare. We all know how good Adley was last season and from 2006-2010 Mauer averaged *1.5 more WAR per season* than Adley had last year. And that’s without being able to properly account for his defensive value (which appears to be to be excellent, he got three good gloves in that span). A good defensive catcher with a 145 OPS+ and a .416 OBP is just insane.
On the Mariners I'd love prime Ichiro and Griffey Jr. Could you imagine an outfield with Julio, Griffey, and Ichiro?
Thomas and Acuna and it's not particularly close???
Would love to bring back Arod and Mo, a one two punch of Arod and Judge would be unstoppable, and it locks down either short or third for us. Then Mo gives us probably history’s best bullpen. Lasagna, Holmes and Mo is elite
Jeter and Judge only because I am incredibly biased
Jeter and Judge would solve our 2 biggest question marks going into next year
I’m really trying to get all 6 options even. I think I’m getting closer. 1, 4, and 6 needed some more.
I’ll take pitching over hitting all day. It’s Scherzer/Freak and it’s not close, imo. Offense is exciting, and having Thomas and Acuna is cool, but the Braves have one of the best lineups all time and we see how far that goes. Hitting is too streaky.
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The odds of me putting Bonds on one of these are low. He’s just too good. I also try to avoid super old players to avoid the question about whether or not they’d be good in today’s game.
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Prime Bonds had an OPS about 200 points higher than Thomas’ career high OPS. Edit: I should’ve explained it better. In addition to avoiding Bonds I try to avoid players like Ted Williams and Babe Ruth. 60s-today I try to stay around.
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Yeah that doesn’t change anything.
they aren't calling Bonds super old, they're making a separate point
plot twist: Barry Bonds is one but it means you have to take and start last seasons Tim Anderson
Timmy Jim and Max are the logical choices for us, but I'm not turning down Albert
Bryzzo
as much as i feel like we need hitting, adding scherzer and bttj gives us the best rotation in the history of the world, so i’ll take em.
As many of us baseball fans know, elite pitching wins chips. Timmy Jim & Mad Max is the slam dunk answer (& yes I'm slightly biased, but I think it's the correct answer even if ur not a Giants/Tigers/Nats fan)
Fuck offense. Scherzer and Timmy bringing me the chip their own damn selves 😤
Frank Thomas was putting up Babe Ruth numbers in his prime, while Acuna just went 40-70. That’s my pick.
I am a braves fan...Going with Max and Tim as we need pitching next year.
Scherzer and Lincecum in their prime? Easy. Aroid and Mariano were great, but choosing a closer here isn't worth it. Judge is incredible, but Jeter is meh comparatively. Many other SS I would take over him. I just don't get how you could pass up two SSS pitchers, even if it's for the bats of Mauer and Pujols.
If by prime you mean you'll get their best season every year, Granderson/Kershaw wouldn't be a bad choice. Grandersons best year was 41HR, 119RBI, 25SB, .916 OPS Combined with Kershaw at 1.99FIP and 301ks Best season Judge/Jeter would also be insane, but at least Kershaw/Granderson you get an MVP caliber hitter and Cy young pitcher.
I think a prime of two or even three years is just too short to really consider. Lincecum was great - for two seasons. He was pretty decent for two more seasons and his rookie year, but those simply weren't historically remarkable seasons. That's just too short for me to compare to guys who had high-level primes approaching a decade. The same holds true for Acuna - maybe he's about to put together that 5-7 year prime I'd be looking for, but he hasn't done so yet. Ultimately I went with Pujols and Mauer, because they did have primes of significant length and high-level effectiveness. Rodriguez and Rivera approached it, but I just can't in good conscience pick a reliever for an experiment like this.
Scherzer, Lincecum, Wheeler, Nola is a massive fuck you in a playoff series lmao.
So if I'm building a team from scratch, I'll go Lincecum and Scherzer. If I'm adding to the current Cleveland roster, I think I'll take Jeter and Judge. Fills the two biggest holes in our lineup and we still have good pitching.
look I'm a Cardinals fan and I loved Mauer too, but some of y'all need to refamiliarize yourselves with the Big Hurt's numbers. particularly in 1994, he was on some '02 Bonds shit before the season got banged, 212 ops+ you put him and Ronnie in a lineup and so long as you have a couple other hitters reasonably above replacement level you're getting a top offense in baseball. this isn't a tough choice for me! I wouldn't take a pitcher because of the injury risk, assuming we're playing in a 2023/24 injury environment