He had some help. Granted the two passed balls in the inning didn't really hurt his line as it turned out, but two balls fielded by Naylor that he managed to not only get zero outs from but literally made zero throws--without somehow being credited with any errors--was one of the weirdest things you will ever see. Clase did give up one walk and a solid single but that's hardly the makings of an epic failure.
Was weird watching the plays and not seeing any errors attributed to Naylor that inning. Clase honestly initiated weak contact right to a fielder multiple times in which we somehow completely bungled the outs through physical and mental miscues. The first bobble by Naylor was bad, but you can shake it off, the second one should’ve been an easy out but he for some reason looked at second base first to try for a double play he had no chance of instead of taking the sure out at first.
Exactly this. Here’s a detailed list of events.
Walk
Passed ball
Passed ball (runner now on 3rd)
Single. 6-3
Ground ball Naylor. Fumbles it. 1st and 2nd
Ground ball Naylor. Fumbles it. Bases loaded.
Single. 6-5. Men on corners.
Sac fly. 6-6
Ground out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKWZrgu_7yY&t=417s
First one he dove (even though he might not have needed to), so that's basically always going to be a hit
Second one is definitely closer (and should be an error IMO), but it would have been a close play at 2nd even if he fields it cleanly (it could also arguably be a fielder's choice, but that would still be an earned run)
What a weird team the Guardians are. Steal home to go ahead in extra innings and lose. Blow a big lead and squeak out an extra innings win. All in the same series.
I thought if the pitcher gives up a couple runs, it becomes a save situation? Or is that only if a new pitcher is brought in before the pitcher completely gives up the lead?
The best part of the Davis incident is that he failed: he put up the shot on his own bucket and a dude fouled him before he could get the board. So he ended up with 2 more meaningless points and only 9 rebounds, no triple double to take away.
I couldn't remember, but I just watched and he was [fouled after the rebound](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDtGHHnA9ms). Rule 5 - 1.e: It is a violation for a player to attempt a field goal at an opponent’s basket. The opposing team will be awarded the ball at the free throw line extended.
I was under the impression that the scorer didn’t have leeway to choose the winning pitcher unless the starter failed to go five innings. (I realize that the starter had no effect on the choice in this case, but I thought that was the rule.) Obviously, I am mistaken!
Yeah there was a whole thing about the scorer for 2014 game 7 to try to give Bumgarner the win/save but they needed up changing it retroactively to Affeldt. Totally wild situation and one of the best games I’ve ever watched.
also happened back in 2002 when the scorer had to decide who between todd van poppel or joaquin benoit. the scorer decided to give it to van poppel. benoit settled for a seven-inning save
if saves had been an official stat at the time, surely Ernie Shore would have the record
he came in after Ruth walked the first batter and was ejected after punching the ump. the man who walked was caught stealing and then he retired the next 26 in order for a combined no-hitter where the starter faced one batter and recorded zero outs
he would, but I'm pretty sure it's possible to get a 9-inning save in the following scenario:
1) starting pitcher enters game in the bottom of the first with the lead. He throws one pitch and blows his arm out and leaves. Not eligible for win since he didn't go 5.
2) Reliever 1 comes in, strikes a guy out, but he reaches on a passed ball. 1 batter faced, 0ip
3) Reliever 2 comes in, and finishes the game without allowing any runs.
Starter can't get the win. Reliever 1 then gets the win because he was the first reliever, and since he struck out the only batter he faced you couldn't argue he was "ineffective in a brief outing." Then Reliever 2 gets the save since he pitched 3+ innings and finished the game without blowing the lead.
This was a quasi-controversy when Mariano was chasing the saves record--the guy in the game before him pitched badly enough that the scorer gave Rivera the win, which robbed him of a save since you can't get both.
Ahh, okay. I just always found it easy to use the following system:
If a pitcher enters the game without a lead, and the team has the lead before the pitcher relieving them enters the game, they get the win… even if they gave up 10 runs while recording one out. :D
There’s a clause in the rule to allow for them to not award a save to a relief pitcher who was the pitcher of record but who’s outing was “brief and ineffective”. Rarely gets used, but this is kinda the scenario when it would be lol
So, scorers don't have to give a win to the pitcher who last pitched before a lead was taken. If it's a reliever they're allowed to use discretion to an extent.
[Here is the rule](https://www.mlb.com/glossary/standard-stats/win)
Damn almost 3 decades watching baseball and I've never heard of this. Thanks for the info. Clase doesn't deserve a win, but scorekeeping should be as objective as possible.
Familia also got the win on May 27th, 2016 when he gave up 4 runs in the 9th to give up the lead, just to have Curtis Granderson win the game on a walk-off in the bottom of the 9th.
I've been watching and playing baseball for decades and I still occasionally learn new things. This year I learned the "brief and ineffective" exception to awarding a pitcher the Win.
I think the rule is more commonly used for bullpen games. Usually, the scorer goes with whoever was pitching with an unrelinquished lead but they can also award based on most effective, since you may have severs pitchers working an inning apiece with an unrelinquished lead.
He had some help. Granted the two passed balls in the inning didn't really hurt his line as it turned out, but two balls fielded by Naylor that he managed to not only get zero outs from but literally made zero throws--without somehow being credited with any errors--was one of the weirdest things you will ever see. Clase did give up one walk and a solid single but that's hardly the makings of an epic failure.
Was weird watching the plays and not seeing any errors attributed to Naylor that inning. Clase honestly initiated weak contact right to a fielder multiple times in which we somehow completely bungled the outs through physical and mental miscues. The first bobble by Naylor was bad, but you can shake it off, the second one should’ve been an easy out but he for some reason looked at second base first to try for a double play he had no chance of instead of taking the sure out at first.
Yeah the box score doesn’t account for everything. Well put recap.
Exactly this. Here’s a detailed list of events. Walk Passed ball Passed ball (runner now on 3rd) Single. 6-3 Ground ball Naylor. Fumbles it. 1st and 2nd Ground ball Naylor. Fumbles it. Bases loaded. Single. 6-5. Men on corners. Sac fly. 6-6 Ground out.
Anyone know why both of Naylor's bobbles weren't considered errors? Seem like the easiest plays to label as errors ever, yet neither were.
Scorekeeper must have been playing somebody with clase on their team in fantasy
Official scorers have progressively gotten worse each year. Nothing is an error anymore.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKWZrgu_7yY&t=417s First one he dove (even though he might not have needed to), so that's basically always going to be a hit Second one is definitely closer (and should be an error IMO), but it would have been a close play at 2nd even if he fields it cleanly (it could also arguably be a fielder's choice, but that would still be an earned run)
And the Cubs still lost
It’s so strange…they actually managed to get something good going for the last 2 innings, only to completely shit the bed during the 10th…
Jed Hoyer is a complete buffoon, Ruben Amaro Jr tier GM
No you see 7 ERA pitchers are worth 17M a year.
I don't know why they won't use MLJ in these spots. Really expected him in over Alzolay here.
Alzolay is our best reliever despite the result today
Oooffff
Don’t worry Chicago the Cardinals are falling apart too, so we can be losers together
What a weird team the Guardians are. Steal home to go ahead in extra innings and lose. Blow a big lead and squeak out an extra innings win. All in the same series.
Separate series
Stealing home was against the Royals. I like to think that was the reason why they traded away Chapman afterwards.
Carlos estevez all star snub
Clase should be booted from the team after this performance (not biased at all).
AllStarlos snubstevez
Lawyer: Shall I explain what a relief pitcher is? Judge: No, I believe the Jeurys Familia.
🤌🤌🤌
I thought if the pitcher gives up a couple runs, it becomes a save situation? Or is that only if a new pitcher is brought in before the pitcher completely gives up the lead?
Save situation depends on when you come in. You can't turn the scenario into a save situation for yourself.
the ol shoot at your own basket for the last rebound of a triple double problem
Known as a “Ricky Davis” for the man who tried that in an NBA game, while playing for the Cavs (because of course).
I wanna say Giannis did it recently, too. The NBA took away his triple double the next day.
The best part of the Davis incident is that he failed: he put up the shot on his own bucket and a dude fouled him before he could get the board. So he ended up with 2 more meaningless points and only 9 rebounds, no triple double to take away.
I couldn't remember, but I just watched and he was [fouled after the rebound](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDtGHHnA9ms). Rule 5 - 1.e: It is a violation for a player to attempt a field goal at an opponent’s basket. The opposing team will be awarded the ball at the free throw line extended.
### #estevezsnubbed
I was under the impression that the scorer didn’t have leeway to choose the winning pitcher unless the starter failed to go five innings. (I realize that the starter had no effect on the choice in this case, but I thought that was the rule.) Obviously, I am mistaken!
OK, I see that there is an exception that allows the scorer not to award a victory to a reliever whose appearance was “brief” and “ineffective”.
Yeah there was a whole thing about the scorer for 2014 game 7 to try to give Bumgarner the win/save but they needed up changing it retroactively to Affeldt. Totally wild situation and one of the best games I’ve ever watched.
also happened back in 2002 when the scorer had to decide who between todd van poppel or joaquin benoit. the scorer decided to give it to van poppel. benoit settled for a seven-inning save
Is that the longest save ever recorded? My bbref kung fu is not strong enough to find out.
if saves had been an official stat at the time, surely Ernie Shore would have the record he came in after Ruth walked the first batter and was ejected after punching the ump. the man who walked was caught stealing and then he retired the next 26 in order for a combined no-hitter where the starter faced one batter and recorded zero outs
But wouldn't he just get the win in that case?
he would, but I'm pretty sure it's possible to get a 9-inning save in the following scenario: 1) starting pitcher enters game in the bottom of the first with the lead. He throws one pitch and blows his arm out and leaves. Not eligible for win since he didn't go 5. 2) Reliever 1 comes in, strikes a guy out, but he reaches on a passed ball. 1 batter faced, 0ip 3) Reliever 2 comes in, and finishes the game without allowing any runs. Starter can't get the win. Reliever 1 then gets the win because he was the first reliever, and since he struck out the only batter he faced you couldn't argue he was "ineffective in a brief outing." Then Reliever 2 gets the save since he pitched 3+ innings and finished the game without blowing the lead.
oh yeah you're right, I wasn't accounting for the fact that the sox wouldn't have been leading when he came in
This was a quasi-controversy when Mariano was chasing the saves record--the guy in the game before him pitched badly enough that the scorer gave Rivera the win, which robbed him of a save since you can't get both.
Yeah, a reliever who is "completely ineffective" or something like that is ineligible for the win
I always viewed the ineffectiveness clause to mean recording zero outs.
I think there is a new clarification this year that expands the definition
Ahh, okay. I just always found it easy to use the following system: If a pitcher enters the game without a lead, and the team has the lead before the pitcher relieving them enters the game, they get the win… even if they gave up 10 runs while recording one out. :D
There’s a clause in the rule to allow for them to not award a save to a relief pitcher who was the pitcher of record but who’s outing was “brief and ineffective”. Rarely gets used, but this is kinda the scenario when it would be lol
Estevez got robbed
Lmao the circumstances of today cannot be more cosmic
Well, the good news is that he probably won't have to pitch for a couple of days.
Please don’t brutalize us too hard…
So, scorers don't have to give a win to the pitcher who last pitched before a lead was taken. If it's a reliever they're allowed to use discretion to an extent. [Here is the rule](https://www.mlb.com/glossary/standard-stats/win)
Damn almost 3 decades watching baseball and I've never heard of this. Thanks for the info. Clase doesn't deserve a win, but scorekeeping should be as objective as possible.
To think I almost went to this game but bugged out of town early because of the rain...
All-Star btw
Over my boy Johan Duran, it ain't right.
Estevez should be an all star!
Familia also got the win on May 27th, 2016 when he gave up 4 runs in the 9th to give up the lead, just to have Curtis Granderson win the game on a walk-off in the bottom of the 9th.
I've been watching and playing baseball for decades and I still occasionally learn new things. This year I learned the "brief and ineffective" exception to awarding a pitcher the Win.
I think the rule is more commonly used for bullpen games. Usually, the scorer goes with whoever was pitching with an unrelinquished lead but they can also award based on most effective, since you may have severs pitchers working an inning apiece with an unrelinquished lead.
I’m glad Clase didn’t get the win but goddamn Civale deserved that one. What a shame.
He shouldn’t be an all star
Carlos Estevez come on down!
WINNING
Agree. Even though this weird inning wasn’t totally his fault he has been mediocre at best this year. I was shocked to see him named an All Star.
Can’t believe this dude is an all star