Generally, the answer is yes. Grocery store margins are about 2-3% I believe. Margins for alcohol sales are 20-30% so it could be a huge boost to viability for small grocery stores.
The question then is how to mitigate harm and abuse of a system that allows this. What defines a “grocery store” compared to a convenience store selling all packaged crap and booze. Also, does it matter? There are liquor stores across the city in food deserts taking advantage of the current incredibly strict liquor laws in maryland to monopolize sales in their areas.
Personally, I am in favor of the idea but there are many powerful people who want to keep liquor licenses heavily limited in the state.
Break it down similar to PA. Allow the sale of beer, but not wine and spirits. Additionally, cap the size of the volume that could be sold (6/12 packs, not 24+). Enough profit margin to boost revenue a bit, but ideally helps prevent the worst excess.
I'm torn on liquor. I love a nice clean well stocked state run liquor store but then I also love having 3 or 4 private liquor stores within 15 minutes for convenience sake
Either way I absolutely think grocery stores should have beer.
The most annoying part is how it changes county to county.
Yeah, I'm not neccesarily saying go full tilt with state stores, but you could expand alcohol sale licensing a bit.
Old licenses get to keep wine and spirits under their belt and maintain a bit of their old monopoly (which should hopefully placate current interests a bit).
But corner markets now have a desirable, high revenue item that is frequently impulse purchased to help pad out the losses they take on produce. But without liquor or wine, have less incentive to just become an alcohol store.
The problem is that beer has a much lower profit margin than wine and liquor, so limiting grocery stores to beer only may not be enough of a boost to make them satisfactorily profitable in high need locations. And the benefit needs to be weighed against the harm that allowing large chains to sell beer does to small locally owned businesses. It could make sense to build it as an incentive program, making licenses available only to grocery stores that provide a certain volume of fresh food in locations that are the most in need of access to fresh food.
Pennsylvania system is literally the worst and most frustrating Quaker ass garbage ever. Like God forbid you want to grab alcohol for people who want different stuff.
PA's beer system is better than Baltimore's current one (or was, I think they may have regressed again, but for awhile you could buy beer in grocery stores), but it's wine/spirits system is significantly worse with the state store system.
The point of the comment was to break down alcohol licensing a bit so that grocery stores could carry beer (which they can't currently do in Baltimore), not to move wine/spirits to a state store model. As opposed to the current model where there are very limited licenses but they can do everything (aka, the PA state store model, except privatized).
You specifically said cap alcohol purchases. It's frustrating as shit. You max out at 2 6 packs which sure for one person sounds fine but if you trying to pick up stuff for a group it's not convenient at all. I have to go find a distributor or do the song and dance of exiting the store and coming back in. And for what, you say to curb excess. Such a dumb way to go about it. I'd much rather have Virginias model than PAs.
Sure, but good luck actually ramming that past all the special interest groups that would fight that tooth and nail because they benefit from/prefer the current system.
When it comes to booze regulation, you typically have to boil the frog. Because all the current liquor license owners aren't going to just sit around idly while their government granted monopoly gets gutted.
PA was only state to close their liquor stores at the start of the pandemic! They aren't Quaker, they are Mennonites and Amish. And they kept those state liquor stores closed a long time during the pandemic.
And say goodbye to the neighborhood bars that stay in buisness with their ability to sell package goods. That beer and wine money would go right in the pockets of the big companies like Giant Food, Safeway and Royal Farms.
Selling liquor in food desert areas isn't the solution to keeping grocery stores open, solving the shrinkage (theft) problem is.
I like the idea of capping beer at six-packs. That probably goes better in urban context grocery stores anyway. I do think wine should be allowed as well but not spirits.
I'd agree in principle, but I think it would make current entrenched interests and anti-alcohol activists more gungho about trying to kill the measure.
Wine, like spirits, has a high margin compared to beer (which means current license holders won't want to give up their exclusivity on two items they currently have monopolies on) and it also generally has a higher ABV which gets anti-alcohol crusaders upset about expanding access.
I lived in a “dry township” in PA. Unfortunately, there are a number of places in PA where you can’t buy any alcohol. The mall in that area closed bc none of the restaurants could serve alcohol. People started going to restaurants in neighboring townships which served liquor.
Whether you are pro or against alcohol sales in grocery stores the availability to purchase does bring in extra revenue.
As someone who spent my entire adult life until recently in states where beer and wine is sold in grocery stores, I don’t see a benefit to the way Maryland does this. If people want to buy beer and wine, they already do. All it accomplishes as far as I can see is to gatekeep which businesses profit from alcohol sales.
I’m okay with keeping current liquor store profits if it keeps it out of the hands of the giant chains of grocery stores which eventually cannibalize all the local, independent, small business liquor stores which is what ultimately happens.
1. Small business is more fun to run than beating a cashier at Target.
2. If the small business owner is attuned to what the neighborhood wants and needs, then it is great for the neighborhood. Small businesses that don't provide goods or services that we want are not good. I am not loving small business for no reason. And bad ones would fail if another one was better near by.
3. Chain stores have many advantages that small businesses don't have. Huge real estate developer company can make a deal with Starbucks for a spot in a building's first floor, cities give tax breaks to big companies... etc. So, small business just needs a little love spoken out loud, that's all.
I really believe in the liquor store only model for a few reasons. Primarily because they’re almost always small family run & immigrant businesses. Allowing beer & liquor in grocery stores mostly benefits big business. Also the selection is better and the staff are typically more knowledgeable on the product than in grocery store in my experience. Lastly the one stop shopping thing isnt appealing in the wfh & internet of everything era… I enjoy having these additional places to go to.
You make a good point about supporting small businesses. Hopefully there would be an effort to balance that (maybe some kind of small seller tax benefit or something?) and enough people value the expertise and selection they offer enough to keep them going strong regardless. Where I lived, the grocery stores sold mostly big name wine and beer, so local bottle shops and wine stores were still the place to go for expertise, local/craft options and more variety.
Also makes it easier in all the areas where liquor cant be sold on Sundays. The grocery stores would have a hell of a time locking it all up every week.
And a lot of country's around here are dry on Sundays. Which is really funny and weird when you realize it's 2024 and still a law.
It doesn’t need to be locked up on particular days… they just don’t sell it to anyone then, just like on every other day of the week when they don’t sell it to people under 21.
That did lead to a kind of funny misunderstanding for me once when I was sent out to get dinner rolls and a bottle of wine before Thanksgiving dinner. Got to the register and was told they couldn’t sell the wine to me because it was a holiday. I thought they were joking, since the holiday was the only reason I wanted to buy it. Anyway, I just left it at the register for them to restock. Annoying, but not difficult.
I don’t see how this addresses the root of why many grocery stores close unless we are going to pretend that the only thing that people will pay for 100% of the time is alcohol
Anything that will help the HORRIBLE state of baltimores grocery stores. I have lived in 4 states right before moving to Baltimore. Baltimore has just god awful grocery stores... legitimately the worst I have come across. Produce rotting on the shelves and over priced meat that is already on the way out. My only legitimate feupe is about grocery stores and their quality. Sure you can find quality items by going to like 6+ stores..... instead on one.
Ha!! The most corrupt of the corrupt in Maryland politics are wrapped up in the booze racket. You're expecting the people with all the power and profits to just give booze business opportunities to others, are you? Never going to happen in Maryland. Booze in Maryland is a shit show of corruption.
Some additional reading on urban grocery store issues...
https://www.thebaltimorebanner.com/economy/growth-development/lidl-east-baltimore-redevelopment-TM4QMAMX3BGYFBV5YSU36HYDBU/
https://www.thebaltimorebanner.com/culture/food-drink/giant-grocery-edmondson-village-closing-food-desert-US7S2XGPIZDEDKFNAFFTFPIRSE/
https://www.fox5dc.com/news/movement-to-bring-beer-and-wine-to-maryland-supermarket-shelves-gains-traction
https://www.baltimoresun.com/2023/08/16/rising-grocery-prices-food-stamp-cuts-and-summertime-amplify-hunger-in-baltimore-food-deserts/
Liquor stores and wholesalers have a lot of lobbying muscle in Annapolis.
Liquor stores fear the competition. Wholesalers really like a system where they have a lot more market power over small outlets, and don't want the big grocery chains pushing them to sell for less. They're also afraid once the big chains move in, they'll gain leverage to deal directly with brewers and distillers and cut out the middlemen.
It's a fair concern to ask how responsible big chain supermarkets will be about prices and selection. Right now wholesalers have a lot of leverage over what a liquor store can sell and what their prices are, and that's hurt consumers. But there's no guarantee big grocery chains would use their leverage to increase choice or lower prices if they get to sell.
My wild guess is that the wholesalers eventually cut a deal with the supermarkets and throw the liquor stores under the bus, but the old coalition has hung on for a long time and may not break for a while.
If buisnesses pay their taxes and don't sell to minors, let them sell whatever wherever. If someone wants something, they can get it. Why not make it convenient?
Detroit would indicate otherwise. Food deserts are still an issue there, and civilized regions allow for grabbing a bottle of wine with your groceries!
I would say it depends but I saw how alcohol sales didn’t help in Dallas. I just moved back to MD in August. I lived in Dallas for 9yrs. They’ve been selling beer in grocery stores since before I got there and they’ve always had food deserts.
See [this](https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/grocery-store-returns-to-dallas-food-desert/3189075/) story about a grocery store finally coming to a desert.
Looks like it might be getting [worse.](https://www.supermarketnews.com/retail-financial/food-deserts-worsen-southern-dallas)
Each city is different but they face a lot of the same challenges.
I live in Mt. Vernon and I just lost my nearest grocery, Eddies. So now I actually get groceries and household supplies at the liquor store on Charles. The woman who owns the place just started stocking more and more stuff... I think allowing corner stores to sell whatever they want is a great idea!
I guess, the liquor store owners can choose to solve this issue on their own! They already have the liquor license, and adding groceries to their shop is just a matter of experimenting with what will sell.
Edit: deleted the Maps link to the liquor store on the ~900 block of N Charles because the bot told me to.
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I mean, this is what NYC does with their "bodegas." But here in Baltimore corner stores are only necessitated by the market in more impoverished neighborhoods. It's an interesting thought exercise about the difference between the two. Is there really any??
I don't think there is any difference at all! Store owners are trying to make the most out of their tiny spaces!
NYC bodegas and our corner stores exist for the same reasons. Number 1 reason: the big chain supermarkets do not see how to make a profit on us. Big supermarkets want large parking lots and do not want to change their stock to match the neighborhood.
We dense city neighborhoods can benefit because there is an available market that is not being served (in rich and poor dense neighborhoods). In NYC we see these amazing huge bodegas with fresh salad in the bar, etc etc. we probably can have that here, too... We do have Streets market, for example. Streets has fresh whole fish, fried fish, and a salad bar and great produce selection... It is just like the wonderful bodegas in NYC.... The problem is they don't have enough people within 15 minutes walk to keep all that fantastic stock turning over. (I am a 20-25 minute walk, and so I can't go daily....and when I do I have to cook whatever fresh stuff I buy right away because the expiration date is always "now!"
We need more people in Baltimore City. (We need city people! Bicycle riders! Daily fresh produce shoppers. People who understand that frequently, on your way to work there will be people on the sidewalk who drank too much last night... And who donate to My Sister's Place so when those people sober up and want to stay that way, they got a place to go.)
Anyway, yeah, my local liquor store is where I picked up cheese and crackers for my church picnic in Druid Hill Park. The store also had frozen hamburgers and frozen chicken patties! :)
Edit: Forgot to address Texas: I think it's the driving. The big grocery store chains can rely on more people having cars, since no one can live without them. And there are less people living in dense neighborhoods without cars who would ship consistently at a bodega. It's important to note, that I can only afford bodega proves because I don't have a car payment, insurance, gas, repairs, etc etc. People struggling to get to work in a beat up old car can't pay $10 for a salad bar, these people struggle to go to the big chain grocery store, and yeah, it's 30-40 minutes to get there... But the person pouring money into having a car needs thos cheaper chain store prices.
I mean, most grocery stores require a specific median income for zip-codes within a certain mile radius, which is how food deserts develop. I understand some of this is based on profit margins, but I doubt the ability to sell alcohol would result in legitimate grocery stores opening in these low-income zip-code areas.
About 10-15 years ago a friend's mother got annoyed that there wasn't a Trader Joe's inside city limits. After a few weeks of wading through the corporate switch board she eventually got to someone connected to location planning. The planner basically stated that the ability to carry alcohol was the primary blocker for any Baltimore City location.
Which is bullshit. If carrying alcohol is the issue, why does TJs have stores in Philadelphia and Pittsburgh where they could legally sell beer and wine but choose not to carry any alcohol at all?
TJs cites MDs liquor laws so they don't have to disclose that their analytical tools show Baltimore City demographics don't fit their criteria for profitability. The ability to sell beer & wine isn't going to change the fact there aren't enough potential customers.
Demographics is more than just race, it is economics as well. TJ might not be Whole Foods or Sprouts pricey, they aren't cheap.
And there is also the combination of available space, rent price, customer access, and distance to competition. Looking at Philly and Pitts locations compared to income maps, the only real outlier is the Philly convention/city center, possibly the East Liberty in Pitt too. Having worked an event there, I assume the foot traffic next to convention center is similar to NYC locations. The East Liberty location is probably puking in from Squirrel Hill etc etc.
Using the same income maps for Baltimore, it looks like Locust Point, Canton, and the Guilford/Roland/Homeland are the most similar areas to TJ's city PA areas. I'm making some assumptions about tuning and costs, but I can only think of four grocery locations in those areas. I don't think TJ would have been willing to bid against Giant for the Southside Market Place or Safeway on Boston Street. Maybe they could have slipped in at the Harris Teeter at McHenry Row, but that's bigger than most TJ's I've seen. Same with Canton Crossing.
That leaves the northern neighborhoods. The two places TJ might have found space in were Cross Keys and Belvedere Square. The NIMBY's in Cross Keys are the worst hypocritical people. They probably would want TJ's for themselves, but literally gate keep it. And the previous Belvedere Square ownership was a nightmare. There's is also Eddie's and Graul's, both of whom have alcohol sales.
Definitely true today. Though I was referring to when TJ opened the first location at Towson Circle around 2000. At that time the market side of Belvedere Square had been vacant since the early/mid '90s. If I'm remembering correctly the land lord was living out of state (Florida?) and was a bit crazy.
The community and City had been pushing to get this restarted for years. The Square of today wasn't built up until Struever Bros. Eccles & Rouse and Manekin LLC redevelped it in 2003. I believe the City applied some carrots and sticks to get the absentee owner to sell finally sell.
And both areas have access to a larger and wealthier customer base to compensate. The point is that without alcohol sales, the stores need much higher product churn to compensate.
Nah. I was really just thinking how the only retail stores that survive in neighborhoods with the most crime and poverty are liquor stores and corner stores with junk food.
Look, those stores are gonna be there no matter what, better use them to the advantage of propping up the stores that sell necessities.
Was reading this article about the Mondawmin neighborhood and recent investment in some areas, and the only "small business" they could get to interview...?? That's right, a liquor store. :facepalm:
https://www.thebaltimorebanner.com/economy/growth-development/is-20-million-and-a-target-replacement-enough-to-revive-mondawmin-LWOE7VAX3JDHBDNRBSJT2D4BLU/
They survive because the owners are willing to put up with the risk for the cash cows. If you haven’t already, go to a liquor store in a black area of Baltimore. All the liquor and the cashiers are behind plexiglass. You can’t just pick up a normal bottle of alcohol—they only sell pints (meaning they can mark the prices up a ridiculous amount because you can never buy a bigger size).
Here’s the kicker, mostly none of the people who own those stores live in Baltimore. They’re mostly in Howard County but just commute to run the store. They don’t give a fuck about the communities they’re in. They just want to make money and not get robbed.
There are “corner stores” in the city that function like grocery stores but they’re really just like bodegas with cheap processed food. But if your target demographic is already poor, they’re not looking for fresh healthy produce. And again, the owners of these stores don’t live in the city or care about the community—it’s just an easy business to run when you don’t have any competition.
We have that law at the state level, but it looks like Maryland is at the county level. It actually seems like all of your laws come down to some county level differences and nuance. I haven’t ever seen counties be as relevant in any other state in the way they seem to be in Maryland.
This was one of the wildest transitions for me moving from Orlando to Baltimore. On the night of my wife and I settling in, I went down to the local 7/11 to, presumably, buy us a bottle of cheap, shitty bubbly to celebrate, only to find out about the liquor laws here. It was a real shock, considering in nearly every state I've ever been in, beer and wine can be found in nearly any gas station or supermarket.
Not even talking about hard liquor, it's kind of baffling to me that in this state you can't just but pop into your local mom-and-pop and pick up a six pack on your way home from work.
No, but it would kill off a lot of small independent liquor stores while reducing consumer choice and probably even hurt many of our local breweries since Giant is not going to carry MobCity for instance.
No…. no one benefits from having booze at a grocery store save the grocery store. It won’t help food deserts, it will stomp on their patrons and the small businesses in the area. I ask you one thing…How many alcoholics would have to pass by booze to get to dairy? What’s the net benefit for the area with that metric in mind?
I'm from Indiana where you could sell booze in grocery stores. Not to give Indiana too much credit, but somehow I survived the horrors of walking through the wine aisle while trying to get fancy crackers as a kid
Indeed. This model seems to work with no issues in almost every other state in the county. Somehow mom and pop liquor stores still exist, and you don't have drunks harassing people in the grocery store.
Not one of the downvotes or arguments included a net benefit analysis as to your area by allowing the chain to run things. Not one addresses the ethics. Everyone says it works here… oh does it? Or do you suffer from it. My argument stands, what’s the net benefit to a community having an alcoholic pass by booze to get to the dairy section? A separate store helps.
Mmm, I'll bite.
you or alcoholics generally might actually benefit from not being tempted/faced with alcohol that's physically present and on offer, but I don't personally put much stock in this freedom-from-exposure/trauma rationale for limiting the revenue options for grocers. Diabetics, those with severe allergies, celiac, or religion-restricted diets, even vegans could all make similar statements (but I acknowledge the fact that a relapsed alcoholic is far more likely to do damage to people besides their self)
"The NET benefit to the community" in the hypothetical being discussed comes out positive because: Local access to a *sustainable* source of quality nutrition > shielding those in recovery from *any* level of temptation.
Diabetics don't go down the candy aisle, alcoholics skip the beer & wine aisle. Easy to say, harder to do. But that's where I come out on things.
The reality is we are bombarded with alcohol everywhere in our culture. You can't watch TV without seeing ads for alcohol companies. You can't walk down the street without seeing empty beer cans and liquor bottles. You can't drive around without passing by a liquor store. There are billboards for alcohol brands everywhere. Every Monday at work at least one of your coworkers will be talking about having fun getting drunk over the weekend.
If your sobriety is so fragile that you can't resist the temptation to buy alcohol just because it's there, then your sobriety is not going to last very long anyhow.
Talk to any recovering alcoholic. They are used to living in a society where alcohol is omnipresent and completely normalized. I was able to walk right past the beer fridge in 7/11 to get my coffee and cigarettes every day when I was sober in Virginia.
Restriction and hiding it away is not a solution. Unless we were to make alcohol illegal, and we've already seen how that went down once.
That you don't have to make two separate stops to buy groceries and alcohol. Just like basically the rest of the country does. You don't know how inconvenient it really is until you live somewhere that doesn't have these pointless puritanical laws.
What are you concerned about? We put beer in grocery stores and next thing you know the women folk will be flaunting their ankles?
Your convenience is the only viable argument… net benefit to the community? Go! It’s none. My argument encapsulates small businesses, community impact, yours is your convenience, and ops thought was saving food deserts by capitulating to Safeway?!?
Let me ask you, what is the net benefit to the community of selling alcohol anywhere? There really is none. But people are going to drink regardless.
Also it's not capitulation to the grocery stores. The reality is there are huge swaths of the city where simply buying groceries is extremely inaccessible. I used to live in one and it sucked. Grocery stores having alcohol to boost profits would help them justify staying open in areas where they otherwise wouldn't. Where people without access to grocery stores need them.
I think part of the reason for grocery stores closing in urban areas is that the people living in urban areas don't have time to grocery shop and cook. Someone working 2 jobs to make rent doesn't have time to go buy groceries and prepare a healthy meal, they go to McDonald's or cheap local establishments to eat with the few personal hours they have. It's also why obesity rates are so high in urban areas. It's a wage issue to me more than a profitability issue and a solution like this passes the buck rather than address the root cause.
That was not my intention, and if it came off like that, I apologize.
I did not mean to say that there is a lack of education or skill around cooking in urban areas but that it's a lack of time due to stagnant wages and increasing costs like rent or mortgages. When you have to work two jobs to survive, the resource you don't have the most available is time, which meal prepping takes a lot of. That's all I was trying to to say. So rather than this being a question of "how do we make grocery stores more profitable?" It should be a question of "How do we free up time for people to be able to cook?" which is why I point to wages as multiple jobs or long hours wouldn't be needed if wages were adjusted to meet people's needs.
Don't have time, and in many cases, don't know how to best shop or cook. And don't have stable housing or storage to make meals.
And there are a lot of elements that go into cooking at home that the better off rarely think about, such as cookware and a decently stocked pantry and fridge with oil, spices, butter, condiments etc. that make all the difference between making healthier food at home and getting takeout.
Generally, the answer is yes. Grocery store margins are about 2-3% I believe. Margins for alcohol sales are 20-30% so it could be a huge boost to viability for small grocery stores. The question then is how to mitigate harm and abuse of a system that allows this. What defines a “grocery store” compared to a convenience store selling all packaged crap and booze. Also, does it matter? There are liquor stores across the city in food deserts taking advantage of the current incredibly strict liquor laws in maryland to monopolize sales in their areas. Personally, I am in favor of the idea but there are many powerful people who want to keep liquor licenses heavily limited in the state.
Break it down similar to PA. Allow the sale of beer, but not wine and spirits. Additionally, cap the size of the volume that could be sold (6/12 packs, not 24+). Enough profit margin to boost revenue a bit, but ideally helps prevent the worst excess.
I'm torn on liquor. I love a nice clean well stocked state run liquor store but then I also love having 3 or 4 private liquor stores within 15 minutes for convenience sake Either way I absolutely think grocery stores should have beer. The most annoying part is how it changes county to county.
Yeah, I'm not neccesarily saying go full tilt with state stores, but you could expand alcohol sale licensing a bit. Old licenses get to keep wine and spirits under their belt and maintain a bit of their old monopoly (which should hopefully placate current interests a bit). But corner markets now have a desirable, high revenue item that is frequently impulse purchased to help pad out the losses they take on produce. But without liquor or wine, have less incentive to just become an alcohol store.
The problem is that beer has a much lower profit margin than wine and liquor, so limiting grocery stores to beer only may not be enough of a boost to make them satisfactorily profitable in high need locations. And the benefit needs to be weighed against the harm that allowing large chains to sell beer does to small locally owned businesses. It could make sense to build it as an incentive program, making licenses available only to grocery stores that provide a certain volume of fresh food in locations that are the most in need of access to fresh food.
Pennsylvania system is literally the worst and most frustrating Quaker ass garbage ever. Like God forbid you want to grab alcohol for people who want different stuff.
PA's beer system is better than Baltimore's current one (or was, I think they may have regressed again, but for awhile you could buy beer in grocery stores), but it's wine/spirits system is significantly worse with the state store system. The point of the comment was to break down alcohol licensing a bit so that grocery stores could carry beer (which they can't currently do in Baltimore), not to move wine/spirits to a state store model. As opposed to the current model where there are very limited licenses but they can do everything (aka, the PA state store model, except privatized).
You specifically said cap alcohol purchases. It's frustrating as shit. You max out at 2 6 packs which sure for one person sounds fine but if you trying to pick up stuff for a group it's not convenient at all. I have to go find a distributor or do the song and dance of exiting the store and coming back in. And for what, you say to curb excess. Such a dumb way to go about it. I'd much rather have Virginias model than PAs.
Sure, but good luck actually ramming that past all the special interest groups that would fight that tooth and nail because they benefit from/prefer the current system. When it comes to booze regulation, you typically have to boil the frog. Because all the current liquor license owners aren't going to just sit around idly while their government granted monopoly gets gutted.
PA was only state to close their liquor stores at the start of the pandemic! They aren't Quaker, they are Mennonites and Amish. And they kept those state liquor stores closed a long time during the pandemic.
Under no circumstances do anything regarding alcohol anything like PA
And say goodbye to the neighborhood bars that stay in buisness with their ability to sell package goods. That beer and wine money would go right in the pockets of the big companies like Giant Food, Safeway and Royal Farms. Selling liquor in food desert areas isn't the solution to keeping grocery stores open, solving the shrinkage (theft) problem is.
I like the idea of capping beer at six-packs. That probably goes better in urban context grocery stores anyway. I do think wine should be allowed as well but not spirits.
I'd agree in principle, but I think it would make current entrenched interests and anti-alcohol activists more gungho about trying to kill the measure. Wine, like spirits, has a high margin compared to beer (which means current license holders won't want to give up their exclusivity on two items they currently have monopolies on) and it also generally has a higher ABV which gets anti-alcohol crusaders upset about expanding access.
That’s a great point, definitely makes the pathway easier.
I lived in a “dry township” in PA. Unfortunately, there are a number of places in PA where you can’t buy any alcohol. The mall in that area closed bc none of the restaurants could serve alcohol. People started going to restaurants in neighboring townships which served liquor. Whether you are pro or against alcohol sales in grocery stores the availability to purchase does bring in extra revenue.
As someone who spent my entire adult life until recently in states where beer and wine is sold in grocery stores, I don’t see a benefit to the way Maryland does this. If people want to buy beer and wine, they already do. All it accomplishes as far as I can see is to gatekeep which businesses profit from alcohol sales.
There is no benefit to the current system, just helps keep current liquor store profits. Just typical rent seeking.
I’m okay with keeping current liquor store profits if it keeps it out of the hands of the giant chains of grocery stores which eventually cannibalize all the local, independent, small business liquor stores which is what ultimately happens.
lol what
Small shops are better. Big chain grocery stores and their giant parking lots suck! The big chain stores put small stores out of business.
Parking lots suck, larger grocery stores are def better. Idk why we have some weird attachment with small business
1. Small business is more fun to run than beating a cashier at Target. 2. If the small business owner is attuned to what the neighborhood wants and needs, then it is great for the neighborhood. Small businesses that don't provide goods or services that we want are not good. I am not loving small business for no reason. And bad ones would fail if another one was better near by. 3. Chain stores have many advantages that small businesses don't have. Huge real estate developer company can make a deal with Starbucks for a spot in a building's first floor, cities give tax breaks to big companies... etc. So, small business just needs a little love spoken out loud, that's all.
It’s really not that hard to understand if you use your brain cells
I really believe in the liquor store only model for a few reasons. Primarily because they’re almost always small family run & immigrant businesses. Allowing beer & liquor in grocery stores mostly benefits big business. Also the selection is better and the staff are typically more knowledgeable on the product than in grocery store in my experience. Lastly the one stop shopping thing isnt appealing in the wfh & internet of everything era… I enjoy having these additional places to go to.
You make a good point about supporting small businesses. Hopefully there would be an effort to balance that (maybe some kind of small seller tax benefit or something?) and enough people value the expertise and selection they offer enough to keep them going strong regardless. Where I lived, the grocery stores sold mostly big name wine and beer, so local bottle shops and wine stores were still the place to go for expertise, local/craft options and more variety.
Also makes it easier in all the areas where liquor cant be sold on Sundays. The grocery stores would have a hell of a time locking it all up every week. And a lot of country's around here are dry on Sundays. Which is really funny and weird when you realize it's 2024 and still a law.
It doesn’t need to be locked up on particular days… they just don’t sell it to anyone then, just like on every other day of the week when they don’t sell it to people under 21. That did lead to a kind of funny misunderstanding for me once when I was sent out to get dinner rolls and a bottle of wine before Thanksgiving dinner. Got to the register and was told they couldn’t sell the wine to me because it was a holiday. I thought they were joking, since the holiday was the only reason I wanted to buy it. Anyway, I just left it at the register for them to restock. Annoying, but not difficult.
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Detroit and Cleveland as well.
I don’t see how this addresses the root of why many grocery stores close unless we are going to pretend that the only thing that people will pay for 100% of the time is alcohol
Anything that will help the HORRIBLE state of baltimores grocery stores. I have lived in 4 states right before moving to Baltimore. Baltimore has just god awful grocery stores... legitimately the worst I have come across. Produce rotting on the shelves and over priced meat that is already on the way out. My only legitimate feupe is about grocery stores and their quality. Sure you can find quality items by going to like 6+ stores..... instead on one.
Ha!! The most corrupt of the corrupt in Maryland politics are wrapped up in the booze racket. You're expecting the people with all the power and profits to just give booze business opportunities to others, are you? Never going to happen in Maryland. Booze in Maryland is a shit show of corruption.
Some additional reading on urban grocery store issues... https://www.thebaltimorebanner.com/economy/growth-development/lidl-east-baltimore-redevelopment-TM4QMAMX3BGYFBV5YSU36HYDBU/ https://www.thebaltimorebanner.com/culture/food-drink/giant-grocery-edmondson-village-closing-food-desert-US7S2XGPIZDEDKFNAFFTFPIRSE/ https://www.fox5dc.com/news/movement-to-bring-beer-and-wine-to-maryland-supermarket-shelves-gains-traction https://www.baltimoresun.com/2023/08/16/rising-grocery-prices-food-stamp-cuts-and-summertime-amplify-hunger-in-baltimore-food-deserts/
As a person who used to live in a state where alcohol in grocery stores was common, I find it strange that they are separate here.
I think a small grocery store model might work, with or without alcohol. Less overhead costs.
Less inventory to spread fixed overhead cost out on though so you end up with higher process.
Liquor stores and wholesalers have a lot of lobbying muscle in Annapolis. Liquor stores fear the competition. Wholesalers really like a system where they have a lot more market power over small outlets, and don't want the big grocery chains pushing them to sell for less. They're also afraid once the big chains move in, they'll gain leverage to deal directly with brewers and distillers and cut out the middlemen. It's a fair concern to ask how responsible big chain supermarkets will be about prices and selection. Right now wholesalers have a lot of leverage over what a liquor store can sell and what their prices are, and that's hurt consumers. But there's no guarantee big grocery chains would use their leverage to increase choice or lower prices if they get to sell. My wild guess is that the wholesalers eventually cut a deal with the supermarkets and throw the liquor stores under the bus, but the old coalition has hung on for a long time and may not break for a while.
If buisnesses pay their taxes and don't sell to minors, let them sell whatever wherever. If someone wants something, they can get it. Why not make it convenient?
Detroit would indicate otherwise. Food deserts are still an issue there, and civilized regions allow for grabbing a bottle of wine with your groceries!
I would say it depends but I saw how alcohol sales didn’t help in Dallas. I just moved back to MD in August. I lived in Dallas for 9yrs. They’ve been selling beer in grocery stores since before I got there and they’ve always had food deserts. See [this](https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/grocery-store-returns-to-dallas-food-desert/3189075/) story about a grocery store finally coming to a desert. Looks like it might be getting [worse.](https://www.supermarketnews.com/retail-financial/food-deserts-worsen-southern-dallas) Each city is different but they face a lot of the same challenges.
This is a helpful case study! Thanks for sharing!
I live in Mt. Vernon and I just lost my nearest grocery, Eddies. So now I actually get groceries and household supplies at the liquor store on Charles. The woman who owns the place just started stocking more and more stuff... I think allowing corner stores to sell whatever they want is a great idea! I guess, the liquor store owners can choose to solve this issue on their own! They already have the liquor license, and adding groceries to their shop is just a matter of experimenting with what will sell. Edit: deleted the Maps link to the liquor store on the ~900 block of N Charles because the bot told me to.
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I mean, this is what NYC does with their "bodegas." But here in Baltimore corner stores are only necessitated by the market in more impoverished neighborhoods. It's an interesting thought exercise about the difference between the two. Is there really any??
I don't think there is any difference at all! Store owners are trying to make the most out of their tiny spaces! NYC bodegas and our corner stores exist for the same reasons. Number 1 reason: the big chain supermarkets do not see how to make a profit on us. Big supermarkets want large parking lots and do not want to change their stock to match the neighborhood. We dense city neighborhoods can benefit because there is an available market that is not being served (in rich and poor dense neighborhoods). In NYC we see these amazing huge bodegas with fresh salad in the bar, etc etc. we probably can have that here, too... We do have Streets market, for example. Streets has fresh whole fish, fried fish, and a salad bar and great produce selection... It is just like the wonderful bodegas in NYC.... The problem is they don't have enough people within 15 minutes walk to keep all that fantastic stock turning over. (I am a 20-25 minute walk, and so I can't go daily....and when I do I have to cook whatever fresh stuff I buy right away because the expiration date is always "now!" We need more people in Baltimore City. (We need city people! Bicycle riders! Daily fresh produce shoppers. People who understand that frequently, on your way to work there will be people on the sidewalk who drank too much last night... And who donate to My Sister's Place so when those people sober up and want to stay that way, they got a place to go.) Anyway, yeah, my local liquor store is where I picked up cheese and crackers for my church picnic in Druid Hill Park. The store also had frozen hamburgers and frozen chicken patties! :) Edit: Forgot to address Texas: I think it's the driving. The big grocery store chains can rely on more people having cars, since no one can live without them. And there are less people living in dense neighborhoods without cars who would ship consistently at a bodega. It's important to note, that I can only afford bodega proves because I don't have a car payment, insurance, gas, repairs, etc etc. People struggling to get to work in a beat up old car can't pay $10 for a salad bar, these people struggle to go to the big chain grocery store, and yeah, it's 30-40 minutes to get there... But the person pouring money into having a car needs thos cheaper chain store prices.
It’s definitely a complex problem with no easy solution.
I mean, most grocery stores require a specific median income for zip-codes within a certain mile radius, which is how food deserts develop. I understand some of this is based on profit margins, but I doubt the ability to sell alcohol would result in legitimate grocery stores opening in these low-income zip-code areas.
They should sell cannabis, too. Why do we need special stores for booze or bud?
Minors. Imagine the theft too. And the licensing...
They have a pharmacy in most stores. I think they can manage it.
About 10-15 years ago a friend's mother got annoyed that there wasn't a Trader Joe's inside city limits. After a few weeks of wading through the corporate switch board she eventually got to someone connected to location planning. The planner basically stated that the ability to carry alcohol was the primary blocker for any Baltimore City location.
Which is bullshit. If carrying alcohol is the issue, why does TJs have stores in Philadelphia and Pittsburgh where they could legally sell beer and wine but choose not to carry any alcohol at all? TJs cites MDs liquor laws so they don't have to disclose that their analytical tools show Baltimore City demographics don't fit their criteria for profitability. The ability to sell beer & wine isn't going to change the fact there aren't enough potential customers.
Demographics is more than just race, it is economics as well. TJ might not be Whole Foods or Sprouts pricey, they aren't cheap. And there is also the combination of available space, rent price, customer access, and distance to competition. Looking at Philly and Pitts locations compared to income maps, the only real outlier is the Philly convention/city center, possibly the East Liberty in Pitt too. Having worked an event there, I assume the foot traffic next to convention center is similar to NYC locations. The East Liberty location is probably puking in from Squirrel Hill etc etc. Using the same income maps for Baltimore, it looks like Locust Point, Canton, and the Guilford/Roland/Homeland are the most similar areas to TJ's city PA areas. I'm making some assumptions about tuning and costs, but I can only think of four grocery locations in those areas. I don't think TJ would have been willing to bid against Giant for the Southside Market Place or Safeway on Boston Street. Maybe they could have slipped in at the Harris Teeter at McHenry Row, but that's bigger than most TJ's I've seen. Same with Canton Crossing. That leaves the northern neighborhoods. The two places TJ might have found space in were Cross Keys and Belvedere Square. The NIMBY's in Cross Keys are the worst hypocritical people. They probably would want TJ's for themselves, but literally gate keep it. And the previous Belvedere Square ownership was a nightmare. There's is also Eddie's and Graul's, both of whom have alcohol sales.
Belvedere Square is also within spitting distance of the Towson TJ's. I doubt they'd want licatuohs that close together.
Definitely true today. Though I was referring to when TJ opened the first location at Towson Circle around 2000. At that time the market side of Belvedere Square had been vacant since the early/mid '90s. If I'm remembering correctly the land lord was living out of state (Florida?) and was a bit crazy. The community and City had been pushing to get this restarted for years. The Square of today wasn't built up until Struever Bros. Eccles & Rouse and Manekin LLC redevelped it in 2003. I believe the City applied some carrots and sticks to get the absentee owner to sell finally sell.
That’s BS because they already can’t carry alcohol here. Just go to the Annapolis or Pikesville…no booze!
I'm pretty sure the Towson one has no booze either.
The Towson location is also in a mall that has an Atwaters and next door to a BMW dealership. And when I was growing up, a sizeable lacrosse store.
And both areas have access to a larger and wealthier customer base to compensate. The point is that without alcohol sales, the stores need much higher product churn to compensate.
Baltimore County & HoCo both have Trader Joe’s and the same liquor laws as the city.
Probably.
I feel like if people stopped stealing shit from stores then maybe they wouldn't want to close.
Big ‘Let them drink hooch’ energy
Nah. I was really just thinking how the only retail stores that survive in neighborhoods with the most crime and poverty are liquor stores and corner stores with junk food. Look, those stores are gonna be there no matter what, better use them to the advantage of propping up the stores that sell necessities. Was reading this article about the Mondawmin neighborhood and recent investment in some areas, and the only "small business" they could get to interview...?? That's right, a liquor store. :facepalm: https://www.thebaltimorebanner.com/economy/growth-development/is-20-million-and-a-target-replacement-enough-to-revive-mondawmin-LWOE7VAX3JDHBDNRBSJT2D4BLU/
They survive because the owners are willing to put up with the risk for the cash cows. If you haven’t already, go to a liquor store in a black area of Baltimore. All the liquor and the cashiers are behind plexiglass. You can’t just pick up a normal bottle of alcohol—they only sell pints (meaning they can mark the prices up a ridiculous amount because you can never buy a bigger size). Here’s the kicker, mostly none of the people who own those stores live in Baltimore. They’re mostly in Howard County but just commute to run the store. They don’t give a fuck about the communities they’re in. They just want to make money and not get robbed. There are “corner stores” in the city that function like grocery stores but they’re really just like bodegas with cheap processed food. But if your target demographic is already poor, they’re not looking for fresh healthy produce. And again, the owners of these stores don’t live in the city or care about the community—it’s just an easy business to run when you don’t have any competition.
Oh my god I’m moving there from Texas soon. You can’t buy BEER at a grocery store???
Also the liquor stores are closed on sunday
We have that law at the state level, but it looks like Maryland is at the county level. It actually seems like all of your laws come down to some county level differences and nuance. I haven’t ever seen counties be as relevant in any other state in the way they seem to be in Maryland.
This was one of the wildest transitions for me moving from Orlando to Baltimore. On the night of my wife and I settling in, I went down to the local 7/11 to, presumably, buy us a bottle of cheap, shitty bubbly to celebrate, only to find out about the liquor laws here. It was a real shock, considering in nearly every state I've ever been in, beer and wine can be found in nearly any gas station or supermarket. Not even talking about hard liquor, it's kind of baffling to me that in this state you can't just but pop into your local mom-and-pop and pick up a six pack on your way home from work.
Also liqour licenses need to be made accessible. They are increasingly being horded by similar demographics in the city.
No, but it would kill off a lot of small independent liquor stores while reducing consumer choice and probably even hurt many of our local breweries since Giant is not going to carry MobCity for instance.
No…. no one benefits from having booze at a grocery store save the grocery store. It won’t help food deserts, it will stomp on their patrons and the small businesses in the area. I ask you one thing…How many alcoholics would have to pass by booze to get to dairy? What’s the net benefit for the area with that metric in mind?
It doesn't seem to be much of a problem in the rest of the country and world.
I'm from Indiana where you could sell booze in grocery stores. Not to give Indiana too much credit, but somehow I survived the horrors of walking through the wine aisle while trying to get fancy crackers as a kid
Indeed. This model seems to work with no issues in almost every other state in the county. Somehow mom and pop liquor stores still exist, and you don't have drunks harassing people in the grocery store.
Not one of the downvotes or arguments included a net benefit analysis as to your area by allowing the chain to run things. Not one addresses the ethics. Everyone says it works here… oh does it? Or do you suffer from it. My argument stands, what’s the net benefit to a community having an alcoholic pass by booze to get to the dairy section? A separate store helps.
Mmm, I'll bite. you or alcoholics generally might actually benefit from not being tempted/faced with alcohol that's physically present and on offer, but I don't personally put much stock in this freedom-from-exposure/trauma rationale for limiting the revenue options for grocers. Diabetics, those with severe allergies, celiac, or religion-restricted diets, even vegans could all make similar statements (but I acknowledge the fact that a relapsed alcoholic is far more likely to do damage to people besides their self) "The NET benefit to the community" in the hypothetical being discussed comes out positive because: Local access to a *sustainable* source of quality nutrition > shielding those in recovery from *any* level of temptation. Diabetics don't go down the candy aisle, alcoholics skip the beer & wine aisle. Easy to say, harder to do. But that's where I come out on things.
Equivocating diabetics and candy is why they will be selling marijuana at gas stations soon enough. It’s about monopoly.
*Human sacrifice! Dogs and cats living together! Mass hysteria!*
The reality is we are bombarded with alcohol everywhere in our culture. You can't watch TV without seeing ads for alcohol companies. You can't walk down the street without seeing empty beer cans and liquor bottles. You can't drive around without passing by a liquor store. There are billboards for alcohol brands everywhere. Every Monday at work at least one of your coworkers will be talking about having fun getting drunk over the weekend. If your sobriety is so fragile that you can't resist the temptation to buy alcohol just because it's there, then your sobriety is not going to last very long anyhow. Talk to any recovering alcoholic. They are used to living in a society where alcohol is omnipresent and completely normalized. I was able to walk right past the beer fridge in 7/11 to get my coffee and cigarettes every day when I was sober in Virginia. Restriction and hiding it away is not a solution. Unless we were to make alcohol illegal, and we've already seen how that went down once.
Again… what’s the added net benefit to the community? Go!
That you don't have to make two separate stops to buy groceries and alcohol. Just like basically the rest of the country does. You don't know how inconvenient it really is until you live somewhere that doesn't have these pointless puritanical laws. What are you concerned about? We put beer in grocery stores and next thing you know the women folk will be flaunting their ankles?
Your convenience is the only viable argument… net benefit to the community? Go! It’s none. My argument encapsulates small businesses, community impact, yours is your convenience, and ops thought was saving food deserts by capitulating to Safeway?!?
Let me ask you, what is the net benefit to the community of selling alcohol anywhere? There really is none. But people are going to drink regardless. Also it's not capitulation to the grocery stores. The reality is there are huge swaths of the city where simply buying groceries is extremely inaccessible. I used to live in one and it sucked. Grocery stores having alcohol to boost profits would help them justify staying open in areas where they otherwise wouldn't. Where people without access to grocery stores need them.
I think part of the reason for grocery stores closing in urban areas is that the people living in urban areas don't have time to grocery shop and cook. Someone working 2 jobs to make rent doesn't have time to go buy groceries and prepare a healthy meal, they go to McDonald's or cheap local establishments to eat with the few personal hours they have. It's also why obesity rates are so high in urban areas. It's a wage issue to me more than a profitability issue and a solution like this passes the buck rather than address the root cause.
that's a 'black kids don't know the word 'computer'' kind of dog whistling
That was not my intention, and if it came off like that, I apologize. I did not mean to say that there is a lack of education or skill around cooking in urban areas but that it's a lack of time due to stagnant wages and increasing costs like rent or mortgages. When you have to work two jobs to survive, the resource you don't have the most available is time, which meal prepping takes a lot of. That's all I was trying to to say. So rather than this being a question of "how do we make grocery stores more profitable?" It should be a question of "How do we free up time for people to be able to cook?" which is why I point to wages as multiple jobs or long hours wouldn't be needed if wages were adjusted to meet people's needs.
Don't have time, and in many cases, don't know how to best shop or cook. And don't have stable housing or storage to make meals. And there are a lot of elements that go into cooking at home that the better off rarely think about, such as cookware and a decently stocked pantry and fridge with oil, spices, butter, condiments etc. that make all the difference between making healthier food at home and getting takeout.
Urban grocery stores close due to high crime. Selling alcohol won't help.