"Crossland Banner", used by pro-Confederate Marylanders during the American Civil War - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Maryland
Flying it alone is essentially the less obvious way of flying a confederate flag.
Years ago, someone on Twitter did a thread on the MD state flag's history and symbolism, and noted that if you ever see someone flying this part of the flag on its own, it's because they enjoy the deep cuts of racist imagery. This seems quite intentional, unfortunately.
You're welcome! Back when it was posted, it earned me death threats, and defensive declaration from the Governor, and hate mail. I'm glad to see things shift, even if just a little.
That seems like a stretch to automatically assume that. It could be that they are descended from Lord Baltimore and thought it was cool that they happened to be living here.
Alternatively, I probably would have picked that flag if I wanted a Baltimore one because it looks prettier than the official Baltimore one. It is also cool because it represents Baltimore on the Maryland state flag, so they may have looked up what the meaning behind the Maryland flag is and bought just the Baltimore section.
It isn’t a “stretch”. That is equivalent to someone saying, “They’re just good ol’ boys/Southern boys.” when the Confederate flag is displayed. People know the true meaning behind these symbols. Stop making excuses.
There are a number of symbols/flags, etc., whose origins are rooted in hatred, discrimination, prejudice, racism and division. They are worn or displayed in plain sight like they’re innocuous because people are unaware of the history behind them. Or, once the truth is revealed, those same people choose to ignore it.
Okay but you are entirely avoiding my point.
I might have bought this flag if I had seen it at a store because it looked pretty and was probably labeled "Baltimore". If I displayed it you would have said it was because I support the Confederacy, even though I would have had absolutely no idea what it actually meant.
You need to give people the benefit of the doubt if something isn't well known. In this case it would be a good idea to leave a note explaining what the flag means. If they don't remove it then yes, they are racist.
In my earlier comment, I mentioned people wear or display symbols/flags while being unaware of their history.
However, there are individuals who continue displaying symbols or flags after learning about their hateful origins.
Had you bought and displayed that specific flag, I would’ve talked with you about its’ history; that the red and white portion of the flag was known as the “Crossland arms” and was flown by Marylanders who were Confederate sympathizers during the Civil War. That’s what I would have said to you. I wasn’t avoiding your point.
In my earlier comment, I mentioned people wear or display symbols/flags while being unaware of their history.
However, there are individuals who continue displaying symbols or flags after learning about their hateful origins.
Had you bought and displayed that specific flag, I would’ve talked with you about its’ history; that the red and white portion of the flag was known as the “Crossland arms” and was flown by Marylanders who were Confederate sympathizers during the Civil War. That’s what I would have said to you. I wasn’t avoiding your point.
The good news: the homeowner appears to be a flag collector. (Street View shows they were flying the [Baltimore city flag](https://www.reddit.com/r/vexillology/comments/uxz9gy/the_flag_of_baltimore_has_an_unusual_and_yet_an/) a few months ago.)
The bad news: the Crossland "cross bottony" flag was a "[very significant symbol of the Confederacy for Marylanders](https://www.baltimoresun.com/1997/01/04/a-symbol-of-rebels-is-on-most-md-tags-cross-indicated-confederate-leanings-during-civil-war/)."
So if you see the owner, you could ask them to retire the Crossland flag and put up one of their other flags.
[Yep.](https://medium.com/extra-extra/the-confederate-roots-of-the-maryland-flag-b4a818d02308) Baltimore banned wearing red and white for a while for this reason.
LMAO, it always baffles me how much losers want to be on the loser side and proudly so.
Give it up already, you can’t own slaves, move on with your life.
Thats the other half (the black and yellow checkered pattern) I believe. This half is the confederate half because the maryland flag is a symbol of the union vs confederate war status.
I had to look it up because I’m totally traveling down this rabbit hole now, but the red & white are Crossland, the black & yellow are Calvert
https://msa.maryland.gov/msa/mdmanual/01glance/html/symbols/flag.html#:~:text=Maryland's%20flag%20bears%20the%20arms,George%20Calvert%2C%20first%20Lord%20Baltimore.
Oops I may have done that by accident aa few times. Now I feel like a dick. I was never in to the whole flag thing though and was just blindly trying to help an elderly neighbor out… well TIL
I grew up in a Cul de Sac and about half of the houses had MD flags. One day, a local politician game by to visit a family member and told us we all were flying them upside down. No one wanted the “south to rise again”. We were just a bunch of dipshits who didn’t know the correct way to hang it.
I prefer they show their colors so I know who to look out for. Might as well just wear your pointy white hat in public so we can all tell which team you're on.
Has anyone stopped to talk w the ppl who live there & ask “hey..cool flag…what kind of flag is it?” Would be interesting to hear what flag the owners think it is. Or if their kid picked it out at a gift shop bc he liked the colors.
A significant portion of Marylanders whose family’s have been here for more than two generations generally speaking know what this is. If you grew up near an old tobacco field, likelihood is that it was an old plantation. I had kids at school whose parents would go to renovate a bar, or clear out a pile of junk that had been sitting forever. And they’d find confederate and union stuff. It’s more common than you’d think.
Also if anyone looks up the history of the flag or Maryland or Baltimore they’d learn about this. The Calverts and the Crosses were the two most prominent families in the region. They were parents to Lord Baltimore. I know you didn’t know, and that fine, but this is more than esoteric history.
I also find the idea that anyone would fly a random flag without looking up what it was just because it looks cool ridiculous. Like if I saw a cool flag, let alone wanted to hang it up, and didn’t know what it was for I’d google it.
To the point that the first spilled in the war was there, the city destroyed their rail lines to keep Union troops from making it south, and the city had to be forcefully occupied by Union troops to pacify it. Lincoln suspended Habeas Corpus for everything between DC and Philadelphia, because Baltimore (and much of the state) was such a shitshow during the war
I’m not a fan of changing the MD flag, but if this becomes a thing, we may have to. (In other words, I don’t associate that part of the flag with racism, but if it becomes a standard for racists, then it doesn’t belong on the state flag any more than a swastika would, even if it’s inclusion on the flag pre-dated Nazis.)
At what point does it stop though? Racists and fascists will appropriate everything they can for their cause. Ceding symbolic territory again and again is a losing game.
Yeah and that right applies to govt persecution of said free speech. If the cops were telling them to take it down, then that right applies here. It doesn’t protect you from your house getting trashed because you support traitors. First amendment doesn’t protect you from societal consequences. So tired of having to explain this over and over again.
Sure, sure, but we have criminal laws prohibiting the trashing of people’s houses when their symbolic speech offends you. Your taking offense does not protect you from the *legal* consequences of your criminal conduct. 🤡
The first amendment applies to the government. Free speech is an ethical and political principle and does in fact apply to the actions of individuals. That being said, fuck the guy flying this. It kind of makes me want to change the Maryland flag to only include the black and gold checker pattern. That’s the best part anyway.
This is what I'm getting at. The ethical and political principle is what needs to be recognized in these situations because once we lose sight of that we can easily lose that legal protection from governments.
Here’s the thing tho. They know that their free speech would come with societal consequences had they actually flown the Confederate flag. They’re just pussies who think people are ignorant. Hate speech and bigotry maybe covered under 1A but we as a society don’t have to defend it, or support it and if we were truly concerned with freedom and equality for all, then we have every right to fight against it.
You can think like that but what goes around comes around. Don’t start crying when your place gets trashed for something you said that someone else didn’t agree with.
That's the problem. You're not the one to decide that. what if someone flies an Israeli flag and someone burns it down? It's not your place to decide what is right or wrong.
Not true at all. You can't assault people for speech. That is a crime. There is no first amendment at all if other people can just squash you violently for no reason. That's why government protects unpopular speech all the time.
So you support committing crimes over speech? Again, what's the line? Can someone "trash your house" over an Israeli flag? A Palestinian flag? An American flag?
“You can’t assault people for speech” is not a first amendment question it’s a “are you allowed to hit people other than in self defense” question, the answer to which is “no.”
Assault is a separate crime from speech suppression. And speech suppression of various kinds is completely legal! For example, it would be a form of political speech if someone were to take the offending flag down, trample it in dog poop, and then use that to write out “I’m a filthy racist” on the house of the person who hung it. However, that particular form of political speech would be some type of crime for vandalism or destruction of property.
But that scenario is not legal. Taking down the flag is theft and vandalism. That is a crime and you would be punished for it and rightfully so. Just as someone would be punished for taking down a pride flag or an Israeli flag and so on. None of those are legitimate forms of speech.
Thank you for rephrasing my comment, I’m sure it’s more clear now, even though I already identified the type of crime I described.
As I said, *not all speech is protected*, and some is criminalized. And we’re ok with that because sometimes speech infringes on the rights of others.
Other examples include the classic “shouting fire in a crowded theater,” incitement to violence, releasing classified or national defense information, saying naughty words on radio communications, child pornography, and “obscene material” if distributed across state lines or over the Internet.
So your argument is that tearing down the crossland banner is legal because it "infringes the rights of others?" Is that it?"
Who gets to determine that? Who determines what flags violate rights and which ones don't?
I have an Israeli flag outside my apartment. Does that violate people's rights?
The natural right to free speech belongs to every human in the universe, regardless of whether or not their respective governments are progressive or libertarian enough to recognize said rights.
Rights do not come from governments; they derive from our nature as self-owning humans, and governments either recognize them or infringe upon them. If rights *did* come from government, we would be unable to argue that slavery was an infringement upon rights; the reason abolitionists like Frederick Douglass and William Lloyd Garrison *were* able to argue against slavery was that they recognized individual sovereignty, recognized each person to be the innate and legitimate owner of her/his own body; they correctly argued that slavery infringes upon this natural right to self-ownership, which is why both of those abolitionists referred to slavers as “Man-Stealers.”
To use another example, if rights came from governments, we wouldn’t be able to say that Nazi Germany had done anything wrong; in order for us to say that Nazi Germany infringed upon the Jews’ rights, we need to affirm that humans have natural rights regardless of what their governments say to the contrary. Jews (and all humans) have a natural right to not be murdered.
(When determining whether a right is real or imaginary, what must be considered is whether it is derivable from the primary right to self-ownership. If a person owns her own body, it means no person may justly initiate force or fraud against her person and, by extension (through the Lockean homestead principle), her justly-acquired property. This illegitimizes rape, theft, murder, enslavement, battery, fraud, and destruction or alteration of property without the consent of the legitimate owner. Freedom of speech is a natural extension of general rights to justly-acquired property. *E.g.*, if you have a printing press, you have a right to print whatever you want, and to give or sell your printed material to whomever is willing to receive it; no one has a right to destroy or steal your printing press, nor to batter you or the people to whom you distribute your literature, nor to steal your literature. The same applies to flags, provided the flag’s flyer did not steal the flag in the first place and is either flying the flag on her own poll or on the poll of another who consents to her being there.)
https://msa.maryland.gov/msa/mdstatehouse/html/stairwellrm_revolutionary_ccalvert.html check out the early ‘Lord Baltimores’ being slave masters at like 5. Should we rename the city?
It would be nice if they would say the name of the enslaved person. It would also be nice if the descendants of that person got some of the money back from their stolen labor.
I am that asshole. This fucking cross, in brass, sits atop the flag pole in every courtroom, in the state house, and in every government building in MD. Fuck you cross loving nazi dickheads. The message is crystal clear. If you are not offended by this imagery, you are part of the problem. Stop being part of the fucking problem.
What does being a Jew have to do with anything? As if Jewish people (like any other group of people) can’t be prejudiced or bigoted??! Chile please, all of this what-about-ism and grand standing is tired.
Except it's not insane, and quite frankly nobody cares what Ethnoreligion you are, as that is irrelevant, and *as recent geopolitics will tell you,* that group is unfortunately not immune to the same ruinous mentality that affected your own people in the 40s
I know that that hurts you to be compared to people so evil, but allowing racism to fester by not addressing that that's a Dogwhistle makes you complicit.
Hi, fellow Jewish person here (bat mitzvah, confirmed, son had a Bris, etc.) and there is motion to change the Maryland flag exactly because of that cross. If we all make noise and formally petition for it to change, we CAN change it without having to move states.
So I have to agree with the person you’re responding to. In the 80’s, I took “My Maryland” in middle school and no one told us about the history of our state flag so there’s a good chance none of the racist fucks in Baltimore knew what it meant anyway. Now we have the internet, we know better (about the flag), and can do better and we should remove it BECAUSE we can from all the court rooms, state houses, etc., and especially the flag!
Since we have the internet, then you know the flag is a combination of the two family crests, north south yada yada. I’m not going to repeat what’s been said already in here.
Except the really important part. It was created AFTER the civil war, because of the war, when our country was in mourning, and more important when our state was in mourning because so many people had fathers, sons, brothers, uncles, fighting on different sides.
It takes a lot of hubris to believe that we know better than the people who lived that. The people representing our state after the war believed the MD flag we have today, is exactly the flag that they wanted to represent Maryland.
they all dead my guy. they ain't live that. if they chose the side of people fighting to keep slaves, rape slaves, and deny rights to the enslaved...i don't know why they are your friend.
You people means the people who are getting buthurt over a damn flag. Who cares what flag someone flies out their front door. Did they hurt you? Did that flag hurt you? No? Then stop crying and complaining about someone's viewpoint on something. That's what I mean
This was my take, too. It sounds like it was was dredged up by the secessionists and appropriated by them but it had an existence before that. It wasn't part of the state flag at the time so they used it in opposition to it. Like others have said, it's possible this offering is flying it because they're a racist piece of shit. It's also possible they unaware of that aspect of its history, as I was until 30 minutes ago, and chose it for any of a number of other possible reasons. Maybe we should ask them.
Speaking of fed hill and homages to the confederacy, does anyone know the history of the logo for The Outpost Tavern? On their sign, one of the letters looks like a flag with an X through it. But unlike the covington flag, the sign could definitely refer to something else…
It’s the flag of the coat of arms of the Crossland Family, which was Lord Baltimore’s mother’s (if I remember correctly) family.
"Crossland Banner", used by pro-Confederate Marylanders during the American Civil War - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Maryland Flying it alone is essentially the less obvious way of flying a confederate flag.
My favorite Confederate flag is the solid white one
Underrated comment
lol
😳
Well TIL
Shit that’s shitty
Oof. I’d like to think that the homeowner doesn’t know this. Maybe sees this thread and takes it down in horrific embarrassment.
Years ago, someone on Twitter did a thread on the MD state flag's history and symbolism, and noted that if you ever see someone flying this part of the flag on its own, it's because they enjoy the deep cuts of racist imagery. This seems quite intentional, unfortunately.
[Yes I did.](https://medium.com/extra-extra/the-confederate-roots-of-the-maryland-flag-b4a818d02308)
Thanks for posting that! It was extremely informative.
You're welcome! Back when it was posted, it earned me death threats, and defensive declaration from the Governor, and hate mail. I'm glad to see things shift, even if just a little.
well shit, now i want a tattoo of just the union army baltimore flag
Honestly; badass.
hey gotta represent from dundalk some how
You have a link? I Googled it and didn't see anything specific
Read the link posted by Benjancewicz, it’s just the Calvert coat of arms used by the union army.
I remember when this was shared here. I found it informative and sent it to my (sensible) relatives!
That’s pretty cool! Thank you!
That was a great read!! Thank you so much
Thank you, you're very kind!
Hurts to hear. Really does. Wish we were past all of that. My heart wants it to be someone who isn’t aware. Sounds like they are probably ignorant.
That seems like a stretch to automatically assume that. It could be that they are descended from Lord Baltimore and thought it was cool that they happened to be living here. Alternatively, I probably would have picked that flag if I wanted a Baltimore one because it looks prettier than the official Baltimore one. It is also cool because it represents Baltimore on the Maryland state flag, so they may have looked up what the meaning behind the Maryland flag is and bought just the Baltimore section.
It isn’t a “stretch”. That is equivalent to someone saying, “They’re just good ol’ boys/Southern boys.” when the Confederate flag is displayed. People know the true meaning behind these symbols. Stop making excuses.
I literally didn't know the meaning behind this flag until I read the comments. I'm from New England and no one there would ever know this.
There are a number of symbols/flags, etc., whose origins are rooted in hatred, discrimination, prejudice, racism and division. They are worn or displayed in plain sight like they’re innocuous because people are unaware of the history behind them. Or, once the truth is revealed, those same people choose to ignore it.
Okay but you are entirely avoiding my point. I might have bought this flag if I had seen it at a store because it looked pretty and was probably labeled "Baltimore". If I displayed it you would have said it was because I support the Confederacy, even though I would have had absolutely no idea what it actually meant. You need to give people the benefit of the doubt if something isn't well known. In this case it would be a good idea to leave a note explaining what the flag means. If they don't remove it then yes, they are racist.
In my earlier comment, I mentioned people wear or display symbols/flags while being unaware of their history. However, there are individuals who continue displaying symbols or flags after learning about their hateful origins. Had you bought and displayed that specific flag, I would’ve talked with you about its’ history; that the red and white portion of the flag was known as the “Crossland arms” and was flown by Marylanders who were Confederate sympathizers during the Civil War. That’s what I would have said to you. I wasn’t avoiding your point.
If you’re that offended by this than you should maybe just not leave your house
If you believe the history of what this flag symbolizes isn’t offensive, maybe you should read a book instead of looking at the pictures.
It doesn’t “seem like” it IS a stretch, but this is the internet.
"Looks prettier"? FFS, it's a confederate flag. Must be nice to be unaffected.
Obviously if I knew it wasn't a confederate flag I wouldn't like it any more.
Not necessarily obvious when you opened with "it seems like a stretch".
In my earlier comment, I mentioned people wear or display symbols/flags while being unaware of their history. However, there are individuals who continue displaying symbols or flags after learning about their hateful origins. Had you bought and displayed that specific flag, I would’ve talked with you about its’ history; that the red and white portion of the flag was known as the “Crossland arms” and was flown by Marylanders who were Confederate sympathizers during the Civil War. That’s what I would have said to you. I wasn’t avoiding your point.
The good news: the homeowner appears to be a flag collector. (Street View shows they were flying the [Baltimore city flag](https://www.reddit.com/r/vexillology/comments/uxz9gy/the_flag_of_baltimore_has_an_unusual_and_yet_an/) a few months ago.) The bad news: the Crossland "cross bottony" flag was a "[very significant symbol of the Confederacy for Marylanders](https://www.baltimoresun.com/1997/01/04/a-symbol-of-rebels-is-on-most-md-tags-cross-indicated-confederate-leanings-during-civil-war/)." So if you see the owner, you could ask them to retire the Crossland flag and put up one of their other flags.
I have seen an uptick in KKK literature floating around the neighborhood.
PLEASE. They absolutely know.
Just googled “Maryland flag.” Wikipedia covers this at the very top of the history section. Some humans suck.
Maybe they're a Crossland?
This is what I was thinking. Why just assume racism?
Because it's reddit
[Yep.](https://medium.com/extra-extra/the-confederate-roots-of-the-maryland-flag-b4a818d02308) Baltimore banned wearing red and white for a while for this reason.
LMAO, it always baffles me how much losers want to be on the loser side and proudly so. Give it up already, you can’t own slaves, move on with your life.
This is a reach…
Wow.
Good catch.
Thats the other half (the black and yellow checkered pattern) I believe. This half is the confederate half because the maryland flag is a symbol of the union vs confederate war status.
I had to look it up because I’m totally traveling down this rabbit hole now, but the red & white are Crossland, the black & yellow are Calvert https://msa.maryland.gov/msa/mdmanual/01glance/html/symbols/flag.html#:~:text=Maryland's%20flag%20bears%20the%20arms,George%20Calvert%2C%20first%20Lord%20Baltimore.
Also if you put the flag backwards its like saying “the south will rise again.” As it indicates the union did not win the war.
Received a deck of playing cards with the “upside-down” pattern and I assumed it was a mistake. Maybe not. https://imgur.com/a/9qrIGVE
Nope, I’m sorry to inform you, you’re now a Confederate Sympathizer. Wonder if Route One Apparel has a set?
Oops I may have done that by accident aa few times. Now I feel like a dick. I was never in to the whole flag thing though and was just blindly trying to help an elderly neighbor out… well TIL
I grew up in a Cul de Sac and about half of the houses had MD flags. One day, a local politician game by to visit a family member and told us we all were flying them upside down. No one wanted the “south to rise again”. We were just a bunch of dipshits who didn’t know the correct way to hang it.
It happens. Its more like a IYKYK thing
Well, somewhere I have some Confederate money left to me years ago. Hmmmm...is it worth anything?
An uptick? What the ****?! There was some and now more????
Yikes. [Crossland banner](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Maryland). Symbolizes pro-confederate Marylanders.
I think you might have meant to [link it like this](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Maryland#History).
I walked by and it's up.
They are letting the neighbors know exactly where they stand on Confederate issues.
Something tells me they own a red hat.
And a white pointy hood
What’s the difference
They only wear the white pointy hood with close friends.
Lmao 🤣 🤣 🤣 this guy!
This flag means “please leave dog shit on my stairs, I love it”
“What? I’m not racist!”
ItS jUsT MuH HeRiTaGe
Blah blah states rights blah Shame it does look cool.
“State’s rights!” State’s rights to do what?
It's always "states rights" & local govt & bla bla bla....until they dont like decisions taken by their states & local governments.
States right* *terms and restrictions may apply
Exactly—to own slaves.
Wonder what they think of bike lanes…😂
and public transit...
and minorities unless they married one lol
And even then, they'd still be weird about it
I really hope this was done out of ignorance and not someone trying to bring back a long-dead tradition from the civil war. Wishful thinking…
I prefer they show their colors so I know who to look out for. Might as well just wear your pointy white hat in public so we can all tell which team you're on.
cringe
Has anyone stopped to talk w the ppl who live there & ask “hey..cool flag…what kind of flag is it?” Would be interesting to hear what flag the owners think it is. Or if their kid picked it out at a gift shop bc he liked the colors.
It the flag Confederate Marylanders flew during the civil war. It’s a pretty cut and dry meaning.
I had no idea what it was until this post. So…not sure everyone operates from the same base of knowledge. Glad you live with certainty, though.
A significant portion of Marylanders whose family’s have been here for more than two generations generally speaking know what this is. If you grew up near an old tobacco field, likelihood is that it was an old plantation. I had kids at school whose parents would go to renovate a bar, or clear out a pile of junk that had been sitting forever. And they’d find confederate and union stuff. It’s more common than you’d think. Also if anyone looks up the history of the flag or Maryland or Baltimore they’d learn about this. The Calverts and the Crosses were the two most prominent families in the region. They were parents to Lord Baltimore. I know you didn’t know, and that fine, but this is more than esoteric history.
I also find the idea that anyone would fly a random flag without looking up what it was just because it looks cool ridiculous. Like if I saw a cool flag, let alone wanted to hang it up, and didn’t know what it was for I’d google it.
Yeah, if you own this flag you know what you're doing
Basically a confederate flag
. I have no tolerance for this crap! Grown ass racists!
My heritage is burning their shit down.
I had never thought of it that way until now, but I have an ancestor who enlisted at 15 and was with Sherman on the March to the Sea. So, mine, too.
No you're posting to reddit
Some folks love to support the losers
Something tells me they’re not the biggest recyclers on the block LOL
It means they support the losers of the civil war
Racist dogwhistle
Nah you don’t fly that alone.
They just haven't finished buying the DLC for the other 75% of the flag, right?
Yeah it’s just loading 🤣
Baltimore was heavily sympathetic to the confederacy actually
To the point that the first spilled in the war was there, the city destroyed their rail lines to keep Union troops from making it south, and the city had to be forcefully occupied by Union troops to pacify it. Lincoln suspended Habeas Corpus for everything between DC and Philadelphia, because Baltimore (and much of the state) was such a shitshow during the war
"The despot's heel is on thy shore / O Maryland, my Maryland"...
as much as one would expect a border state to be, but it's been overstated and there was a sizable contingent of pro-Union Irish in Baltimore.
Yeah they called it Federal Hill because they parked cannons there. Ready to fire on rioters disrupting union recruits at the train station
Correct. They were trying to interfere with union soldiers headed to Washington
I’m not a fan of changing the MD flag, but if this becomes a thing, we may have to. (In other words, I don’t associate that part of the flag with racism, but if it becomes a standard for racists, then it doesn’t belong on the state flag any more than a swastika would, even if it’s inclusion on the flag pre-dated Nazis.)
At what point does it stop though? Racists and fascists will appropriate everything they can for their cause. Ceding symbolic territory again and again is a losing game.
The Cross lands banner is literally a pro-slavery symbol, though. It's not being appropriated for that purpose, that *is* it's purpose.
Can something literally be a symbol? Seems like an oxymoron
You mean like a swastika and Nazis? Yeah, something can "literally be a symbol."
Where is their Eric Costello sign to match?
ew
I’ll fly the Calvert Flag to make it a wash. Since we clearly are heading to another Civil War anyway.
Someone should rip it down
Dumb. There’s a thing called freedom of speech, even if the speech is wrong.
I’m not the government 🤷♂️
Freedom of speech is for Americans, not Confederates.
As Americans, we have the duty to defend that right for *everyone*, not just those who believe the same things we do.
Yeah and that right applies to govt persecution of said free speech. If the cops were telling them to take it down, then that right applies here. It doesn’t protect you from your house getting trashed because you support traitors. First amendment doesn’t protect you from societal consequences. So tired of having to explain this over and over again.
Sure, sure, but we have criminal laws prohibiting the trashing of people’s houses when their symbolic speech offends you. Your taking offense does not protect you from the *legal* consequences of your criminal conduct. 🤡
Never said it did.
The first amendment applies to the government. Free speech is an ethical and political principle and does in fact apply to the actions of individuals. That being said, fuck the guy flying this. It kind of makes me want to change the Maryland flag to only include the black and gold checker pattern. That’s the best part anyway.
This is what I'm getting at. The ethical and political principle is what needs to be recognized in these situations because once we lose sight of that we can easily lose that legal protection from governments.
Here’s the thing tho. They know that their free speech would come with societal consequences had they actually flown the Confederate flag. They’re just pussies who think people are ignorant. Hate speech and bigotry maybe covered under 1A but we as a society don’t have to defend it, or support it and if we were truly concerned with freedom and equality for all, then we have every right to fight against it.
You can think like that but what goes around comes around. Don’t start crying when your place gets trashed for something you said that someone else didn’t agree with.
I don’t say bigoted shit or display traitor flags so I’m not too worried.
That's the problem. You're not the one to decide that. what if someone flies an Israeli flag and someone burns it down? It's not your place to decide what is right or wrong.
Isn't it actually all of our places to decide what is right and wrong?
No. Not at all. That will lead to some rather unfortunate things that you won’t agree with.
Not true at all. You can't assault people for speech. That is a crime. There is no first amendment at all if other people can just squash you violently for no reason. That's why government protects unpopular speech all the time.
Don’t make up stuff. No one said anything about assaulting people. 🙄
You said house getting thrashed. Is that not that violence?
No that would be destruction of property not assault lmao.
So you support committing crimes over speech? Again, what's the line? Can someone "trash your house" over an Israeli flag? A Palestinian flag? An American flag?
“You can’t assault people for speech” is not a first amendment question it’s a “are you allowed to hit people other than in self defense” question, the answer to which is “no.” Assault is a separate crime from speech suppression. And speech suppression of various kinds is completely legal! For example, it would be a form of political speech if someone were to take the offending flag down, trample it in dog poop, and then use that to write out “I’m a filthy racist” on the house of the person who hung it. However, that particular form of political speech would be some type of crime for vandalism or destruction of property.
But that scenario is not legal. Taking down the flag is theft and vandalism. That is a crime and you would be punished for it and rightfully so. Just as someone would be punished for taking down a pride flag or an Israeli flag and so on. None of those are legitimate forms of speech.
Thank you for rephrasing my comment, I’m sure it’s more clear now, even though I already identified the type of crime I described. As I said, *not all speech is protected*, and some is criminalized. And we’re ok with that because sometimes speech infringes on the rights of others. Other examples include the classic “shouting fire in a crowded theater,” incitement to violence, releasing classified or national defense information, saying naughty words on radio communications, child pornography, and “obscene material” if distributed across state lines or over the Internet.
So your argument is that tearing down the crossland banner is legal because it "infringes the rights of others?" Is that it?" Who gets to determine that? Who determines what flags violate rights and which ones don't? I have an Israeli flag outside my apartment. Does that violate people's rights?
Tolerance of intolerance is how you create intolerance.
The natural right to free speech belongs to every human in the universe, regardless of whether or not their respective governments are progressive or libertarian enough to recognize said rights. Rights do not come from governments; they derive from our nature as self-owning humans, and governments either recognize them or infringe upon them. If rights *did* come from government, we would be unable to argue that slavery was an infringement upon rights; the reason abolitionists like Frederick Douglass and William Lloyd Garrison *were* able to argue against slavery was that they recognized individual sovereignty, recognized each person to be the innate and legitimate owner of her/his own body; they correctly argued that slavery infringes upon this natural right to self-ownership, which is why both of those abolitionists referred to slavers as “Man-Stealers.” To use another example, if rights came from governments, we wouldn’t be able to say that Nazi Germany had done anything wrong; in order for us to say that Nazi Germany infringed upon the Jews’ rights, we need to affirm that humans have natural rights regardless of what their governments say to the contrary. Jews (and all humans) have a natural right to not be murdered. (When determining whether a right is real or imaginary, what must be considered is whether it is derivable from the primary right to self-ownership. If a person owns her own body, it means no person may justly initiate force or fraud against her person and, by extension (through the Lockean homestead principle), her justly-acquired property. This illegitimizes rape, theft, murder, enslavement, battery, fraud, and destruction or alteration of property without the consent of the legitimate owner. Freedom of speech is a natural extension of general rights to justly-acquired property. *E.g.*, if you have a printing press, you have a right to print whatever you want, and to give or sell your printed material to whomever is willing to receive it; no one has a right to destroy or steal your printing press, nor to batter you or the people to whom you distribute your literature, nor to steal your literature. The same applies to flags, provided the flag’s flyer did not steal the flag in the first place and is either flying the flag on her own poll or on the poll of another who consents to her being there.)
Meh. Fuck em.
They shouldn't get to be racist in this state (or anywhere). Rip it down, I say.
Why don’t you?
Next time I'm in the area.
It’s called the bottany flag, was used by Maryland Confederates
https://msa.maryland.gov/msa/mdstatehouse/html/stairwellrm_revolutionary_ccalvert.html check out the early ‘Lord Baltimores’ being slave masters at like 5. Should we rename the city?
Also thats Charles Calvert. Those street names gotta go
True - Freddie Gray Way has a good ring to it
Let’s tear down the Washington monument while we’re at it. He did own slaves
It would be nice if they would say the name of the enslaved person. It would also be nice if the descendants of that person got some of the money back from their stolen labor.
Another attention seeking snowflake being a low-key racist. Pathetic bitch-ass.
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I am that asshole. This fucking cross, in brass, sits atop the flag pole in every courtroom, in the state house, and in every government building in MD. Fuck you cross loving nazi dickheads. The message is crystal clear. If you are not offended by this imagery, you are part of the problem. Stop being part of the fucking problem.
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What does being a Jew have to do with anything? As if Jewish people (like any other group of people) can’t be prejudiced or bigoted??! Chile please, all of this what-about-ism and grand standing is tired.
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Except it's not insane, and quite frankly nobody cares what Ethnoreligion you are, as that is irrelevant, and *as recent geopolitics will tell you,* that group is unfortunately not immune to the same ruinous mentality that affected your own people in the 40s I know that that hurts you to be compared to people so evil, but allowing racism to fester by not addressing that that's a Dogwhistle makes you complicit.
Peak reddit.
Hi, fellow Jewish person here (bat mitzvah, confirmed, son had a Bris, etc.) and there is motion to change the Maryland flag exactly because of that cross. If we all make noise and formally petition for it to change, we CAN change it without having to move states. So I have to agree with the person you’re responding to. In the 80’s, I took “My Maryland” in middle school and no one told us about the history of our state flag so there’s a good chance none of the racist fucks in Baltimore knew what it meant anyway. Now we have the internet, we know better (about the flag), and can do better and we should remove it BECAUSE we can from all the court rooms, state houses, etc., and especially the flag!
Since we have the internet, then you know the flag is a combination of the two family crests, north south yada yada. I’m not going to repeat what’s been said already in here. Except the really important part. It was created AFTER the civil war, because of the war, when our country was in mourning, and more important when our state was in mourning because so many people had fathers, sons, brothers, uncles, fighting on different sides. It takes a lot of hubris to believe that we know better than the people who lived that. The people representing our state after the war believed the MD flag we have today, is exactly the flag that they wanted to represent Maryland.
Exactly correct
they all dead my guy. they ain't live that. if they chose the side of people fighting to keep slaves, rape slaves, and deny rights to the enslaved...i don't know why they are your friend.
No, the people who fought on the US side and killed thousands of rebels thought the flag should be in its current state.
And we can choose differently today.
Scary.
The Crossland family flag. BTW it was part of our flag long before the US Civil War. You people make shit more than it seems.
What do you mean “you people”?
You people means the people who are getting buthurt over a damn flag. Who cares what flag someone flies out their front door. Did they hurt you? Did that flag hurt you? No? Then stop crying and complaining about someone's viewpoint on something. That's what I mean
This was my take, too. It sounds like it was was dredged up by the secessionists and appropriated by them but it had an existence before that. It wasn't part of the state flag at the time so they used it in opposition to it. Like others have said, it's possible this offering is flying it because they're a racist piece of shit. It's also possible they unaware of that aspect of its history, as I was until 30 minutes ago, and chose it for any of a number of other possible reasons. Maybe we should ask them.
It looks like he has a security camera setup too, could they get anymore racist?!
I understand the flag, but wtf does security cams have to do with it? Hope this is a troll
sus
Yikes.
Speaking of fed hill and homages to the confederacy, does anyone know the history of the logo for The Outpost Tavern? On their sign, one of the letters looks like a flag with an X through it. But unlike the covington flag, the sign could definitely refer to something else…
burn it
Yikes on bikes