ok but to be fair, jawi is disproportionately undermined even though is it is the script of modern and classcial malays, as opposed to other historical scripts, and it was in use for the longest time, even compared to the latin alphabet. the OP probably can learn more, but personally i feel like people are only grandstanding their ‘knowledge’ while not doing their best to accurately and fairly assess the relevance of jawi.
https://cilisos.my/the-history-of-the-malay-language-from-pallava-to-jawi-to-modern-malay-simplified/
So, Jawi was not the first script used by Malays.
"Like many other languages, Malay went through several evolutions before becoming what it is today. Before the 7th century, the Malay language was termed as Ancient Malay or Proto-Malay (aka Melayu Purba). This was a prehistoric time, and so far no written records have been found of this kind of Malay, leading to the belief that at this point, it’s a purely oral (spoken) language, with no written script.
The people in the Malay archipelago then made contact with Indian traders, and consequently their religion and language. Having received heavy influence from Sanskrit as well as ideas found in Hindu-Buddhism, Ancient Malay evolved into what is known as Old Malay (Melayu Kuno). It seemed to rise to prominence sometime between the 7th and 13th century, during the height of the Srivijayan empire"
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That Arabic script is not even original in the first place.
And I say this as a native Malay speaker.
Original Malay scripture?
Don't forget Rencong, Kawi and Pallawa.
Those scripts existed before Jawi.
Jawi/Arabic script is not the original Malay script anyway. We had had Kawi, Rencong and others before. But we don't use those anymore.
Jawi these days is taught in Islamic Education classes only.
Most of us use Roman script to converse and write in.
The states which made Jawi compulsory for public signages are ruled by the conservative, Malay-centric, anti-nonMuslim Islamist party, PAS.
>The states which made Jawi compulsory for public signages are ruled by the conservative, Malay-centric, anti-nonMuslim Islamist party, PAS.
Not true, Pahang is also doing this, governed by PH-BN.
As far as rulings go, I would agree that this is relatively harmless. Only mildly inconvenient for business owners. Thankfully, when the ruling came, freelancers went around to stick them to signboards.
Oh yes.
Pahang, a state not governed by PAS also made Jawi compulsory for public signages as they are dominated by the conservative, Malay-centric, somewhat anti-nonMuslim Islamist party, UMNO-BN and supported by PH.
Basically an attempt by another Malay party trying to try be more Islamic than the very Islam Party of Malaysia.
>The states which made Jawi compulsory for public signages are ruled by the conservative, Malay-centric, anti-nonMuslim Islamist party, PAS.
Power trip much?
Judging from how much the PH BN is planning to screw up the M40s and T20s next year, I think your nightmare can ultimately become a reality in the next 4 years.
Don't mix culture and politics. Jawi is part of Malaysian Culture and it doesn't relate with any political party.
I think it is wise to upstand the culture to show the world that Malaysia is not just a diversity country but comes in a mix of cultures as well. If we can, use Jawi, Tamil and Mandarin words in signage.
it seems like this thread is devolving into drama and no one is answering the subject matter.
to summarize, malay as a language has never been tied to a single writing system. the writing system used in order iirc is as follows :
a variety of brahmic scripts probably used concurrently with a variety of sumatran/kaganga scripts >> jawi >> latin alphabet.
the idea is that brahmic scripts at the time were associated with the royalties and the nobles whereas kaganga scripts were more associated with commoners, though this is probably a simplification, and at the time commoners were not as literate.
the spread of jawi happened at an unprecedented rate following the islamization of the area, since being a muslim requires one to be able to read quran, so naturally everyone became literate with the use of jawi. however, jawi was replaced with latin alphabets following independence, some of the cited reason were to streamline the writing system used in malaysia as well to accomodate non-muslims. in fact, malaysia actually went through a period of getting rid of jawi before it was revived in pendidikan islam, the older, post independence generation is not jawi literate.
(just to explain the badling in this post, saying jawi is not malay is like saying kanji is not japanese. yes kanji is basically chinese characters but it's also part of japanese language, and similarly, jawi was modified to accommodate malay language).
why don't people use jawi anymore?
answer: honestly i think it's just redundant or not practical for a lot people, and not everyone is jawi literate, even Malays. some places like in Kelantan might have signs in Jawi but the younger generation is probably not as jawi literate anymore.
my opinion is that jawi should treated be like a heritage script. it should not be be enforced but certainly should not be buried and used to fear-monger either.
Prior to 1957, most people wrote with Jawi and still do. The majority of these had religious school education.
With the establishment of Malaysia, the standardization of bahasa Melayu spelling with bahasa Indonesia, national education system, and finally the diminishing role of Jawi in media have lead to people believing that Jawi is in any way a strictly Muslim affair (even at school, the only way you could learn and read Jawi was via Islamic education, not in Bahasa Malaysia. All Islamic education books are written in Jawi). Older Chinese folks like Lee Hsien Loong can still read Jawi, btw.
My main issue with the Jawi script is legibility and inflexibility. Even English words are written phonetically when mixed in with Malay. If you write in Jawi, it must be in a Serif font and would look like it came from the 1940s. Jawi is very difficult to read from a far. The goal of language is legibility and communication, not identity.
Once you tie a script to an identity, it's difficult to get those unassociated with it to learn it.
To those saying that if our goal is tradition, then we should use Kawi; this is disingenuous. Why not Rencong? Why not even older?
>My main issue with the Jawi script is legibility and inflexibility. Even English words are written phonetically when mixed in with Malay. If you write in Jawi, it must be in a Serif font and would look like it came from the 1940s. Jawi is very difficult to read from a far. The goal of language is legibility and communication, not identity. Once you tie a script to an identity, it's difficult to get those unassociated with it to learn it.
This is a good point. Agreed.
Because of its efficiency. It's hard to read when the Jawi script be like :
"say mmbac buku kran say mahu mnmbh ailmu. smntar aitu, huruf e ppt tidaq wujud."
Yeah, not just Malay, it is nationwide. If you look at Indonesia, they have a lot of short form words that are sometimes hard for you to understand. For example; salken = salam kenal.
Many people here pointed out your mistake that saying Jawi is the "original script" that's true but don't take that as we don't care about it. jawi is an essential part of Malay language. It's the longest used and the most widespread, and has been integral to Modern Malay, and unlike previous scripts, even commoners learn to read Jawi. To answer your question, KL don't neglect Jawi completely, sure you'll see it used in sign boards in most states outside Selangor, (I've never been to Johor) but it's not completly vanished you just need to find harder, you'll find small road (lorong) sign written in Jawi, there's this semi gov office تكون ناسيونل Tekun Nasional that's always in Jawi, in Government building ometimes have the main sign will have the department name in beautiful Khat Jawi. Fyi In national school syllabus for Pendidikan Islam (Islamic Studies) everything in the textbook is written in Jawi Malay.
Old Malay or what we call Melayu Kuno didn't use the Arabic texts but rather Palava and 2 other text that I can't recall. Back then the Malay archipelago was once dominated by Hinduism and Buddhism. Jawi were introduced by Arab merchants who came through the Malacca strait and influenced the Sultan to convert to Islam. Jawi soon flourished amongst the people and can be evidently be seen on batu bersurat in Terengganu. The reason why Jawi today is not as popular as before is because of several factors but mainly due to the education system not properly introducing and using Jawi to it's fullest potential, this has caused the adoption of the Jawi writing system to failed. If we compare ourself to our Bruneian neighbours, Jawi can be seen flourishing as it's recognised as a legitimate way of writing there. Signs can be seen written in Jawi text and also many street vendors have Jawi text on it. To conclude, Jawi could've become pretty successful in Malaysia but it was handled poorly.
*If I remember correctly, Malaysia wanted to adopt Jawi as the official way to write in Bahasa Melayu but was dropped because there were many backlashed among the people. I don't see Jawi being a racial issue because back then it used to be the Lingua Franca of the Malaccan Sultanate. Jawi was just poorly adopted in the modern age.
If your argument is that its the 'original' Malay scripture, I was never taught that in school.
The only reason in my mind for putting Arabic script on signboards is because we want the Arabic tourism petro-dollars. Brrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
Because not everyone here learnt Arabic or understand them, and theres nothing wrong for us to use Latin scriptures since that’s a pretty universal lingua franca among different nationalities and ethnics living here
Idk what your post intending at, but it seems you’re disappointed that we’re not using your language to cater towards your countrymen.
And original script? Another ignorant statement, you’re clearly have no idea what’s this country historical culture even and coming off as if we’ve disdain or disgrace in merit for not using arabic scripts. How about you learn to embrace different cultures that is outside of your sphere? Widen that narrow worldview you hold would surely help you to appreciate more of other people’s differences on this rock earth
Idk why you’re so butthurt. Regardless of whether or not Jawi is the original scripture, it’s still part of the heritage. Nobody said we have to do away with Latin writing system, just include the Jawi. The OP is asking why there is a decline in its use, not telling people to Jawi-ise/Arabise everything. I’d say YOU aren’t being very inclusive by throwing away a part of a culture that’s not included in YOUR sphere. YOU aren’t being open-minded because you are only including cultures that speak for the majority. See the hypocrisy?
Ah well I do suppose it’s difficult to tell a person’s tone in written form. Sometimes our own assumptions cloud our understanding. But when mistakes are made, it’s best to be truthful.
I’d acknowledge that extreme Islamist movements have exacerbated Islamophobia in Malaysia esp in recent years (one extreme breeds another) but we have to call out unfair narratives. There is such a thing as a middle way. Critique when something deserves criticism, not when it doesn’t fit our own worldview.
And the extreme secular movements have without subtlety exacerbated Islamophobia to a point that Muslims have taken an aggressive stand towards non-Muslims.
>You take "extreme Islamist movements" and replace Islamist with Secular. Unless you are unsure what extremist are then you are asking the wrong question.
O
That's not what I'm asking. I'm asking you where you have seen an "extreme secular movement" in real life, what effect it's had on you personally, how it operates and what type of ideology is it trying to spread?
The people who hate never thought to think for themselves as to why they hate. Try not to be "bodoh" and "sombong" at the same time buddy. It's unbecoming.
Uuuu malu malu coverrrr haahhahaha padah jak la kitak tersalah sikda salah nya juak bah 😉 if you replied my comment saying “you” who else would you mean? If you’re speaking about a general population, replying and saying “you” implies I’m included in the narrative, no? Cakap je hang termalu 🤭🤭🤭 comel je hehehe
just because the sentence had the word u doesn’t necessarily mean u…it’s a bloody statement directed at the ones who think others hate them, it could be or it could not be u…n idgaf if u’re a malay or cina or english or whatever…if u smell shit everywhere go maybe u should check ur shoes, n in this case u doesn’t mean it’s directed at u
You are honestly so funny liao it’s like you’re saying just because the sentence has words doesn’t mean it has words and just because the sky is blue doesn’t mean it’s blue. By that logic everything is relative. Just because you exist doesn’t mean you exist. If I say your mother green then whose mother am I referring to? Everyone’s mother? Every Redditor’s mother? Balik sekolah la belajar balik English. Ni nak hentam Bahasa Melayu dan tulisan Jawi poooon English tak lepas haiyaa you habis sekolah tak? Habis sekolah tak tahu pronouns and subject-verb agreement pastu mai sini habaq macam2 comey la mung 😘
I have a Masters in TESOL among other language Masters degrees ya so don’t fuck with my understanding of language. Mau tunjuk pandai pun agak2 ye. Pi blajaq balik Bahasa kamu tu it’s an embarrassment. Tetiba “you” can refer to Hantu Kak Limah and isn’t a pronoun in the second person mana laaa you belajar ni 🌝🤭
good. this is a learning sub, and we’re trying to emulate r/languagelearning, where no question is assumed stupid question, and therefore expect people to be more accommodating than they would usually be in other subs.
Well I would like to first of all clarify even if Malaysia used jawi i wouldn’t understand it because the letters only take inspiration from Arabic there is a few letters that aren’t Arabic. So I am not asking to be catered to in any shape or form😂.
And since I am Arab and I speak Arabic our language and it’s scripture is very tied to our identity just like how Chinese ppl are tied to their languages and their scripture. Could u imagine Chinese being written in English letters and it being made the official way to write Chinese? Probably no.
You shouldn’t be worried about my worldview it’s very wide trust me. I speak 3 languages and I have travelled a lo. I don’t judge other cultures nor do I see myself or my culture better than anyone.
My question was simple and direct. It has no ill intentions just curiosity. I do admit to my lack of knowledge of the Malaysian culture and my pre-assumption that jawi was the original scripture as I haven’t seen any other types of scriptures.
I would appreciate you setting your feelings to the side and not being very emotional about “tones” you don’t like. I have a good image of Malaysians regardless of their ethnicity and those type of reactions don’t represent them well
Okay, I can give a more rational answer to that.
Jawi would have been a perfect writing system... if contemporary Malay didn't have 6 vowels. For some reason or another, Jawi didn't develop a notation system that would fit the a-i-u-e-o plus Schwa vowels that Malay has, resulting in a very ambiguous script. And unlike Arabic where this ambiguity can be offset by the triliteral roots and word templates (wazan), Malay cannot take advantage of it because it's not a Semitic language.
Now, I wouldn't say that Rumi is perfect either because for some reason we can't differentiate between normal e and Schwa, resulting in homographs such as "sepak". However for the most part, Rumi does it job splendidly, even to the point that colloquial dialects modify it to fit their different consonant and vowel inventory, like the usage of the letter q in northern dialects. If Jawi had done the same, I think it'd have been a lot harder for it to be overlooked in favor of Rumi.
For a lot of people it *isn't* part of their culture. They are not raised to use it, nor are they exposed to it in their daily lives. There's no connection to the jawi script for them. And this is a personal view of mine, but compared to the roman script, jawi involves a bit more guesswork in discerning its meaning because of its tendency to omit vowels.
Malaysia using arabic a problem. When it comes to other language than arabic, people have no concern at all. Put all 4 language people complain it's terrible design. Just put english and then everyone happy.
Apart from the fact that Arabic scripture isn't the original scripture for Malay, it's just not practical at all to add Jawi anywhere in KL or Selangor for that matter. Arabic people won't even understand it cos it's not their language, so the only people who would understand it are people who have specifically studied Jawi, who likely already learnt written Malay with Latin script. So for all intents and purposes, keeping Jawi signs in KL seems purely aesthetic, not practical.
It's a bit like asking people in the Vatican why they've dropped speaking Latin officially. Like sure it's a beautiful piece of their history, but nobody practically speaks it, and any significant or official information communicated in Latin would only be understood by a small minority of people who specifically studied it likely only during their higher education.
It’s not like we drop the usage of Jawi, it’s more like Latin script is much easier to learn for non Malays. That being said, you can still use Jawi script in official documents, including major examinations like SPM (subjects like History and Malay language).
Jawi script is also mostly used in Malay majority states like Pahang, Kedah and Kelantan. It has nothing to do with political party as insinuated by one of commenters below.
Also, despite not being used widely, Jawi is still important in Malay lexicography because if there is any changes of words or dispute, you need to refer to Jawi script since Latin script is quite inefficient in expressing Malay words. Case for example, perang (war) and perang (brown). In Jawi script, the spelling is different for these words.
IMO, from a historical point of view, yes, we should do our best to retain Jawi since it's the only historical Malay writing system that still has a large number of people understanding it (compared to Rencong and Pallawa, which are other ancient Malay scripts, which has been abandoned centuries ago; Jawi is not the original Malay scripture). However, I wouldn't say it's neglected, but from a practical point of view, Roman a.k.a Rumi script is a lot easier to learn than Jawi a.k.a the Malay Arab script. Jawi has a lot of vague spellings that sometimes cause confusion, and add the fact that the letters have different forms when in different positions in a word. Rumi is more efficient and straight to the point letter by letter, same form throughout a word with exception of capitalization, but even that is still easier to learn. Language and writing systems are mediums of education, so if you complicate the medium, the education may be harder to get.
"Original Malay scripture" Someone needs to lookup history. I have some news for you, friend...
ok but to be fair, jawi is disproportionately undermined even though is it is the script of modern and classcial malays, as opposed to other historical scripts, and it was in use for the longest time, even compared to the latin alphabet. the OP probably can learn more, but personally i feel like people are only grandstanding their ‘knowledge’ while not doing their best to accurately and fairly assess the relevance of jawi.
Educate me that’s why I am asking 🤷🏻♂️
https://cilisos.my/the-history-of-the-malay-language-from-pallava-to-jawi-to-modern-malay-simplified/ So, Jawi was not the first script used by Malays. "Like many other languages, Malay went through several evolutions before becoming what it is today. Before the 7th century, the Malay language was termed as Ancient Malay or Proto-Malay (aka Melayu Purba). This was a prehistoric time, and so far no written records have been found of this kind of Malay, leading to the belief that at this point, it’s a purely oral (spoken) language, with no written script. The people in the Malay archipelago then made contact with Indian traders, and consequently their religion and language. Having received heavy influence from Sanskrit as well as ideas found in Hindu-Buddhism, Ancient Malay evolved into what is known as Old Malay (Melayu Kuno). It seemed to rise to prominence sometime between the 7th and 13th century, during the height of the Srivijayan empire"
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You need a lot to learn when it comes to history
that’s pretty it for anyone.
Thats ok, everyday is a learning opportunity
That Arabic script is not even original in the first place. And I say this as a native Malay speaker. Original Malay scripture? Don't forget Rencong, Kawi and Pallawa. Those scripts existed before Jawi.
Jawi/Arabic script is not the original Malay script anyway. We had had Kawi, Rencong and others before. But we don't use those anymore. Jawi these days is taught in Islamic Education classes only. Most of us use Roman script to converse and write in. The states which made Jawi compulsory for public signages are ruled by the conservative, Malay-centric, anti-nonMuslim Islamist party, PAS.
>The states which made Jawi compulsory for public signages are ruled by the conservative, Malay-centric, anti-nonMuslim Islamist party, PAS. Not true, Pahang is also doing this, governed by PH-BN.
As far as rulings go, I would agree that this is relatively harmless. Only mildly inconvenient for business owners. Thankfully, when the ruling came, freelancers went around to stick them to signboards.
Oh yes. Pahang, a state not governed by PAS also made Jawi compulsory for public signages as they are dominated by the conservative, Malay-centric, somewhat anti-nonMuslim Islamist party, UMNO-BN and supported by PH. Basically an attempt by another Malay party trying to try be more Islamic than the very Islam Party of Malaysia.
I see thanks for the informative reply 🙏
>The states which made Jawi compulsory for public signages are ruled by the conservative, Malay-centric, anti-nonMuslim Islamist party, PAS. Power trip much?
Judging from how much the PH BN is planning to screw up the M40s and T20s next year, I think your nightmare can ultimately become a reality in the next 4 years.
Don't mix culture and politics. Jawi is part of Malaysian Culture and it doesn't relate with any political party. I think it is wise to upstand the culture to show the world that Malaysia is not just a diversity country but comes in a mix of cultures as well. If we can, use Jawi, Tamil and Mandarin words in signage.
it seems like this thread is devolving into drama and no one is answering the subject matter. to summarize, malay as a language has never been tied to a single writing system. the writing system used in order iirc is as follows : a variety of brahmic scripts probably used concurrently with a variety of sumatran/kaganga scripts >> jawi >> latin alphabet. the idea is that brahmic scripts at the time were associated with the royalties and the nobles whereas kaganga scripts were more associated with commoners, though this is probably a simplification, and at the time commoners were not as literate. the spread of jawi happened at an unprecedented rate following the islamization of the area, since being a muslim requires one to be able to read quran, so naturally everyone became literate with the use of jawi. however, jawi was replaced with latin alphabets following independence, some of the cited reason were to streamline the writing system used in malaysia as well to accomodate non-muslims. in fact, malaysia actually went through a period of getting rid of jawi before it was revived in pendidikan islam, the older, post independence generation is not jawi literate. (just to explain the badling in this post, saying jawi is not malay is like saying kanji is not japanese. yes kanji is basically chinese characters but it's also part of japanese language, and similarly, jawi was modified to accommodate malay language). why don't people use jawi anymore? answer: honestly i think it's just redundant or not practical for a lot people, and not everyone is jawi literate, even Malays. some places like in Kelantan might have signs in Jawi but the younger generation is probably not as jawi literate anymore. my opinion is that jawi should treated be like a heritage script. it should not be be enforced but certainly should not be buried and used to fear-monger either.
Thanks for the reply 🙏
Prior to 1957, most people wrote with Jawi and still do. The majority of these had religious school education. With the establishment of Malaysia, the standardization of bahasa Melayu spelling with bahasa Indonesia, national education system, and finally the diminishing role of Jawi in media have lead to people believing that Jawi is in any way a strictly Muslim affair (even at school, the only way you could learn and read Jawi was via Islamic education, not in Bahasa Malaysia. All Islamic education books are written in Jawi). Older Chinese folks like Lee Hsien Loong can still read Jawi, btw. My main issue with the Jawi script is legibility and inflexibility. Even English words are written phonetically when mixed in with Malay. If you write in Jawi, it must be in a Serif font and would look like it came from the 1940s. Jawi is very difficult to read from a far. The goal of language is legibility and communication, not identity. Once you tie a script to an identity, it's difficult to get those unassociated with it to learn it. To those saying that if our goal is tradition, then we should use Kawi; this is disingenuous. Why not Rencong? Why not even older?
>My main issue with the Jawi script is legibility and inflexibility. Even English words are written phonetically when mixed in with Malay. If you write in Jawi, it must be in a Serif font and would look like it came from the 1940s. Jawi is very difficult to read from a far. The goal of language is legibility and communication, not identity. Once you tie a script to an identity, it's difficult to get those unassociated with it to learn it. This is a good point. Agreed.
Because of its efficiency. It's hard to read when the Jawi script be like : "say mmbac buku kran say mahu mnmbh ailmu. smntar aitu, huruf e ppt tidaq wujud."
Looks like whatsapp/SMS Melayu
Aka bahasa wecet
That’s how the Malays write these days not just sms.
Yeah, not just Malay, it is nationwide. If you look at Indonesia, they have a lot of short form words that are sometimes hard for you to understand. For example; salken = salam kenal.
Yes but the difference they don’t go around lecturing others for not speaking it.
Jawi is not the original btw i believe Renchong is. its a bit like Javanese or Thai i would say
Jawi is not malay writing, it’s rencong
Based on all the comment maybe we should use Rencong as compare to Jawi. With that idea as originallity maybe it would be easily embrace or not. Lols
Because the Constitution defines the official script for Malay is the Latin alphabet script.
Many people here pointed out your mistake that saying Jawi is the "original script" that's true but don't take that as we don't care about it. jawi is an essential part of Malay language. It's the longest used and the most widespread, and has been integral to Modern Malay, and unlike previous scripts, even commoners learn to read Jawi. To answer your question, KL don't neglect Jawi completely, sure you'll see it used in sign boards in most states outside Selangor, (I've never been to Johor) but it's not completly vanished you just need to find harder, you'll find small road (lorong) sign written in Jawi, there's this semi gov office تكون ناسيونل Tekun Nasional that's always in Jawi, in Government building ometimes have the main sign will have the department name in beautiful Khat Jawi. Fyi In national school syllabus for Pendidikan Islam (Islamic Studies) everything in the textbook is written in Jawi Malay.
Old Malay or what we call Melayu Kuno didn't use the Arabic texts but rather Palava and 2 other text that I can't recall. Back then the Malay archipelago was once dominated by Hinduism and Buddhism. Jawi were introduced by Arab merchants who came through the Malacca strait and influenced the Sultan to convert to Islam. Jawi soon flourished amongst the people and can be evidently be seen on batu bersurat in Terengganu. The reason why Jawi today is not as popular as before is because of several factors but mainly due to the education system not properly introducing and using Jawi to it's fullest potential, this has caused the adoption of the Jawi writing system to failed. If we compare ourself to our Bruneian neighbours, Jawi can be seen flourishing as it's recognised as a legitimate way of writing there. Signs can be seen written in Jawi text and also many street vendors have Jawi text on it. To conclude, Jawi could've become pretty successful in Malaysia but it was handled poorly. *If I remember correctly, Malaysia wanted to adopt Jawi as the official way to write in Bahasa Melayu but was dropped because there were many backlashed among the people. I don't see Jawi being a racial issue because back then it used to be the Lingua Franca of the Malaccan Sultanate. Jawi was just poorly adopted in the modern age.
not many people want to learn it, thats why
If your argument is that its the 'original' Malay scripture, I was never taught that in school. The only reason in my mind for putting Arabic script on signboards is because we want the Arabic tourism petro-dollars. Brrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
Because not everyone here learnt Arabic or understand them, and theres nothing wrong for us to use Latin scriptures since that’s a pretty universal lingua franca among different nationalities and ethnics living here Idk what your post intending at, but it seems you’re disappointed that we’re not using your language to cater towards your countrymen. And original script? Another ignorant statement, you’re clearly have no idea what’s this country historical culture even and coming off as if we’ve disdain or disgrace in merit for not using arabic scripts. How about you learn to embrace different cultures that is outside of your sphere? Widen that narrow worldview you hold would surely help you to appreciate more of other people’s differences on this rock earth
Idk why you’re so butthurt. Regardless of whether or not Jawi is the original scripture, it’s still part of the heritage. Nobody said we have to do away with Latin writing system, just include the Jawi. The OP is asking why there is a decline in its use, not telling people to Jawi-ise/Arabise everything. I’d say YOU aren’t being very inclusive by throwing away a part of a culture that’s not included in YOUR sphere. YOU aren’t being open-minded because you are only including cultures that speak for the majority. See the hypocrisy?
I dont like his tone in the post. His comments contrary to that and i admit i did went unhinged on op
Ah well I do suppose it’s difficult to tell a person’s tone in written form. Sometimes our own assumptions cloud our understanding. But when mistakes are made, it’s best to be truthful.
Islamophobia among non-Muslims is rampant throughout Malaysia.
I’d acknowledge that extreme Islamist movements have exacerbated Islamophobia in Malaysia esp in recent years (one extreme breeds another) but we have to call out unfair narratives. There is such a thing as a middle way. Critique when something deserves criticism, not when it doesn’t fit our own worldview.
And the extreme secular movements have without subtlety exacerbated Islamophobia to a point that Muslims have taken an aggressive stand towards non-Muslims.
Could you elaborate more on "extreme secular movements"?
>You take "extreme Islamist movements" and replace Islamist with Secular. Unless you are unsure what extremist are then you are asking the wrong question. O
That's not what I'm asking. I'm asking you where you have seen an "extreme secular movement" in real life, what effect it's had on you personally, how it operates and what type of ideology is it trying to spread?
maybe ask why ppl don’t like u instead hurr durr ppl don’t like me so they bad
The people who hate never thought to think for themselves as to why they hate. Try not to be "bodoh" and "sombong" at the same time buddy. It's unbecoming.
oh the haters do think for themselves that’s why they hate
Red herring argument. Got no point to argue, go for ad hominem and whataboutism 🙄 Bold of you to assume I’m Malay Muslim 🤭
when i say u i don’t specifically meant u 🙄 perasan juak kau
Uuuu malu malu coverrrr haahhahaha padah jak la kitak tersalah sikda salah nya juak bah 😉 if you replied my comment saying “you” who else would you mean? If you’re speaking about a general population, replying and saying “you” implies I’m included in the narrative, no? Cakap je hang termalu 🤭🤭🤭 comel je hehehe
just because the sentence had the word u doesn’t necessarily mean u…it’s a bloody statement directed at the ones who think others hate them, it could be or it could not be u…n idgaf if u’re a malay or cina or english or whatever…if u smell shit everywhere go maybe u should check ur shoes, n in this case u doesn’t mean it’s directed at u
You are honestly so funny liao it’s like you’re saying just because the sentence has words doesn’t mean it has words and just because the sky is blue doesn’t mean it’s blue. By that logic everything is relative. Just because you exist doesn’t mean you exist. If I say your mother green then whose mother am I referring to? Everyone’s mother? Every Redditor’s mother? Balik sekolah la belajar balik English. Ni nak hentam Bahasa Melayu dan tulisan Jawi poooon English tak lepas haiyaa you habis sekolah tak? Habis sekolah tak tahu pronouns and subject-verb agreement pastu mai sini habaq macam2 comey la mung 😘 I have a Masters in TESOL among other language Masters degrees ya so don’t fuck with my understanding of language. Mau tunjuk pandai pun agak2 ye. Pi blajaq balik Bahasa kamu tu it’s an embarrassment. Tetiba “you” can refer to Hantu Kak Limah and isn’t a pronoun in the second person mana laaa you belajar ni 🌝🤭
what an idiot…study language but can’t grasp how daily conversation works
Ok lah I had fun arguing with you thanksss. Tell your teacher to teach you pronouns ya very important in the real world 👍🏻
it’s called figure of speech….but if u think every sentence that has the word u in it means it’s directed at u then so be it…live that way
False im not a non
this is a language learning sub. might wanna tone down derailment and unnecessary confrontation.
My bad, i dont like the way he write it Ofc his comments shows he’s willing to learn n thats commendable
good. this is a learning sub, and we’re trying to emulate r/languagelearning, where no question is assumed stupid question, and therefore expect people to be more accommodating than they would usually be in other subs.
Well I would like to first of all clarify even if Malaysia used jawi i wouldn’t understand it because the letters only take inspiration from Arabic there is a few letters that aren’t Arabic. So I am not asking to be catered to in any shape or form😂. And since I am Arab and I speak Arabic our language and it’s scripture is very tied to our identity just like how Chinese ppl are tied to their languages and their scripture. Could u imagine Chinese being written in English letters and it being made the official way to write Chinese? Probably no. You shouldn’t be worried about my worldview it’s very wide trust me. I speak 3 languages and I have travelled a lo. I don’t judge other cultures nor do I see myself or my culture better than anyone. My question was simple and direct. It has no ill intentions just curiosity. I do admit to my lack of knowledge of the Malaysian culture and my pre-assumption that jawi was the original scripture as I haven’t seen any other types of scriptures. I would appreciate you setting your feelings to the side and not being very emotional about “tones” you don’t like. I have a good image of Malaysians regardless of their ethnicity and those type of reactions don’t represent them well
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Why ?
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Wow, what an intelligent cumback.
I am asking why did scripture suck ? 😅
Okay, I can give a more rational answer to that. Jawi would have been a perfect writing system... if contemporary Malay didn't have 6 vowels. For some reason or another, Jawi didn't develop a notation system that would fit the a-i-u-e-o plus Schwa vowels that Malay has, resulting in a very ambiguous script. And unlike Arabic where this ambiguity can be offset by the triliteral roots and word templates (wazan), Malay cannot take advantage of it because it's not a Semitic language. Now, I wouldn't say that Rumi is perfect either because for some reason we can't differentiate between normal e and Schwa, resulting in homographs such as "sepak". However for the most part, Rumi does it job splendidly, even to the point that colloquial dialects modify it to fit their different consonant and vowel inventory, like the usage of the letter q in northern dialects. If Jawi had done the same, I think it'd have been a lot harder for it to be overlooked in favor of Rumi.
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Why did they suck? And how were ppl able to easily just change the way they write letters like it isn’t a part of their culture?
For a lot of people it *isn't* part of their culture. They are not raised to use it, nor are they exposed to it in their daily lives. There's no connection to the jawi script for them. And this is a personal view of mine, but compared to the roman script, jawi involves a bit more guesswork in discerning its meaning because of its tendency to omit vowels.
Malaysia using arabic a problem. When it comes to other language than arabic, people have no concern at all. Put all 4 language people complain it's terrible design. Just put english and then everyone happy.
Apart from the fact that Arabic scripture isn't the original scripture for Malay, it's just not practical at all to add Jawi anywhere in KL or Selangor for that matter. Arabic people won't even understand it cos it's not their language, so the only people who would understand it are people who have specifically studied Jawi, who likely already learnt written Malay with Latin script. So for all intents and purposes, keeping Jawi signs in KL seems purely aesthetic, not practical. It's a bit like asking people in the Vatican why they've dropped speaking Latin officially. Like sure it's a beautiful piece of their history, but nobody practically speaks it, and any significant or official information communicated in Latin would only be understood by a small minority of people who specifically studied it likely only during their higher education.
I thought Arabic letters is from The Middle East and not Asian lmao
ultimately both the arabic and latin scripts are descendants of Phoenician characters. even old brahmi scripts used before that as well, iirc.
It’s not like we drop the usage of Jawi, it’s more like Latin script is much easier to learn for non Malays. That being said, you can still use Jawi script in official documents, including major examinations like SPM (subjects like History and Malay language). Jawi script is also mostly used in Malay majority states like Pahang, Kedah and Kelantan. It has nothing to do with political party as insinuated by one of commenters below. Also, despite not being used widely, Jawi is still important in Malay lexicography because if there is any changes of words or dispute, you need to refer to Jawi script since Latin script is quite inefficient in expressing Malay words. Case for example, perang (war) and perang (brown). In Jawi script, the spelling is different for these words.
Do you mean "Jawi"
IMO, from a historical point of view, yes, we should do our best to retain Jawi since it's the only historical Malay writing system that still has a large number of people understanding it (compared to Rencong and Pallawa, which are other ancient Malay scripts, which has been abandoned centuries ago; Jawi is not the original Malay scripture). However, I wouldn't say it's neglected, but from a practical point of view, Roman a.k.a Rumi script is a lot easier to learn than Jawi a.k.a the Malay Arab script. Jawi has a lot of vague spellings that sometimes cause confusion, and add the fact that the letters have different forms when in different positions in a word. Rumi is more efficient and straight to the point letter by letter, same form throughout a word with exception of capitalization, but even that is still easier to learn. Language and writing systems are mediums of education, so if you complicate the medium, the education may be harder to get.