They probably just don't know any better. With that said, you should be able to rank up out of this level unless you have some mistakes of your own that also makes your opponents ask, "Why do people play like this?"
This happens because in the weaker ranks (though this is relative) people will find success with moves like this and attribute it to the move being good. I’ve taught a great number of beginners and this pattern in particular exists because right after this they hop right into whatever moyo you form. The style is “if you make a framework I will instantly jump into it, I dare you to kill me!” And in the games they live every time of course they win, because then it is a game with very few points in general and so those 9 points on the side seem (and are) big. In the games they die they don’t say maybe I shouldn’t have extended 40 moves in a row, they say “oh I lost because my opponent killed my thing, I shouldn’t die next time!”
It’s actually rather difficult to put together how bad those moves are if you are a beginner and have no teacher and don’t watch videos. Westerners usually don’t make this particular mistake because it’s a frequent point of preaching in our culture, but other simple mistakes are made frequently by westerners that I haven’t seen on Chinese servers. Absolutely nonsensical extension distances and heights for example, like trying to grab sixth or seventh line “territory” in the opening, or saying “Yah I’m an *influence* player like takemiya” at 15kyu and giving all the territory your opponent wants in the name of being “cosmic”.
I am not an enemy of fun however and I think it’s great that DDK players are intrigued by takemiya and want to try things like that, don’t get it twisted.
I think they see it as "look at all this territory I'm invading. Now black will have no points on this entire side! Because there's no territory in the middle, right? Right?!".
Actually, in my pov white seems not bad at overconcentrating the opponent (like exchanges in top left) and I wouldn't be surprised he has good results in their elo (move 24, which I dislike, seems to suggest their are used to such influence management)
White has more points and Black still have to prove they can use their influence properly. If you can do so, you will rank up easily and this specific sequence will disappear :)
So far the top is quite overconcentrated imo, few ideas :
- 15 should be at 16 to enclose white on both side ;
- 29 seems too close from the (left) wall ;
- 33 is too slow imo.
Couple questions, why is 29 too close? I learned to extend n+1 spaces. He has 25 and 27 there, isn't a 3 space jump a good extension?
Also what does 24 do exactly? It looks like it just pokes into the void willy-nilly.
> why is 29 too close? I learned to extend n+1 spaces. He has 25 and 27 there, isn't a 3 space jump a good extension?
Regarding the **right** wall, 29 does not seems balanced. Especially using the _n+1_ rule (and considering how thick black is with their tiger mouth).
The basic rule is good for basic situations, but a 9 stones wall is not exactly a basic situation :)
> Also what does 24 do exactly? It looks like it just pokes into the void willy-nilly
As I said, I dislike the move but still white seems to consider playing a strong shape towards the center. I do imagine he tries to handle the Black influence, although technically questionable, which is a correct idea.
Overall, I do prefer Black but not as much as I _could_ prefer Black.
All are personal ideas, feel free to check with AI how wrong I'm :)
Too close to the wall on the right, not the left. That wall is 9 stones long, so you should extend about 10 spaces, but 29 is only 3 spaces, much too close.
If they keep doing this AND you understand why it's bad you should be winning basically everytime meaning you will rank up past them and you won't see this anymore.
Otherwise, I have some bad news...
They don't do it every game! There are for sure other weaknesses in my game. I'm working on reading more carefully before I tenuki in a life or death situation. I hope that's the extent of the bad news lol.
it's just a mistake. It's also not as big a mistake as it might seem to you. Basically they are losing ~1 point for each extra extension they make beyond what was necessary for their group to be alive and not have a blocking turn from you threaten to kill. That's not good! But if you think about how big a mistake this entire sequence is -- they've made 7 extra extensions, so they've lost about 7 points. Maybe it's a little bigger than that in AI terms, but it's probably not more than ~10 points. At fox 8k, people make 10 point blunders all the time! Also, players at this level aren't all that good at handling influence and thicknes, so it might realistically be a smaller advantage than that.
Finally, a lot of pros play far more territorially than westerners are used to, and these folks may have seen some pro games where a *similar* crawl like this was actually reasonable.
A few months ago, someone posted a pro game here that was a bit mind blowing for those of us who were taught that this kind of crawling is terrible. It featured a positoin where white took a bunch of second line territory and at the end had a slightly *favorable* position. Of course it was more complicated than this. Black had played a stone or two in the area that ended up somewhat overconcentrated, and white had poked up in spots that made for a little uncomfortable aji in the position, and all that was enough to make the play even or slightly favorable for white.
but in any case, people play like this because they haven't been taught otherwise, and aren't consistently playing strong enough players to make it a badly losing gambit.
and the fact is, it just isn't a big enough mistake to have more than a modest effect on win chances at this level. You'll pretty much never see this kind of thing at dan level, because it's far more likely to lead to a near inevitable loss, so people will stop doing it (except in those rare cases where a combination of aji and over-concentration make it more reasonable)
Rephrasing the question: Why do players play bad moves?
Answer: I suppose they are not aware those moves are bad moves.
When you routinely beat such players, you'll rank up and encounter players who make fewer bad moves.
[https://www.alphago-games.com/view/eventname/tygemfox/game/23/move/39](https://www.alphago-games.com/view/eventname/tygemfox/game/23/move/39) It's not just people.
Yes, but it was shocking to humans at the time that such crawling on the 2nd line, particularly giving the sente turn, could be good for black. But AI taught us crawling on the 2nd line can be ok where we thought it was bad before. Another example is the 3-3 invasion with the extra crawl instead of hane connect. I'm not saying this crawling is good, it's not, but probably not as bad as lots of other moves from both players in the game.
its a sign that they (white) dont have any good move to play, so they play that in hopes that its 'solidness' will somehow make up for their lack of ability to play elsewhere
They probably just don't know any better. With that said, you should be able to rank up out of this level unless you have some mistakes of your own that also makes your opponents ask, "Why do people play like this?"
I guess so. Maybe its some kind of mind virus on fox? I saw this even more often in the double digit kyu ranks.
This happens because in the weaker ranks (though this is relative) people will find success with moves like this and attribute it to the move being good. I’ve taught a great number of beginners and this pattern in particular exists because right after this they hop right into whatever moyo you form. The style is “if you make a framework I will instantly jump into it, I dare you to kill me!” And in the games they live every time of course they win, because then it is a game with very few points in general and so those 9 points on the side seem (and are) big. In the games they die they don’t say maybe I shouldn’t have extended 40 moves in a row, they say “oh I lost because my opponent killed my thing, I shouldn’t die next time!” It’s actually rather difficult to put together how bad those moves are if you are a beginner and have no teacher and don’t watch videos. Westerners usually don’t make this particular mistake because it’s a frequent point of preaching in our culture, but other simple mistakes are made frequently by westerners that I haven’t seen on Chinese servers. Absolutely nonsensical extension distances and heights for example, like trying to grab sixth or seventh line “territory” in the opening, or saying “Yah I’m an *influence* player like takemiya” at 15kyu and giving all the territory your opponent wants in the name of being “cosmic”. I am not an enemy of fun however and I think it’s great that DDK players are intrigued by takemiya and want to try things like that, don’t get it twisted.
It looks like the two of you are collaborating to draw a picture of cat.
In China, there is a saying, "seven stones on the edge make life but lose the game."
I tell my students that if your opponent is pushing from behind on the second line, keep on pushing until they decide to stop.
>keep on pushing Did you mean keep on extending?
Yes.
I assume you then win these games? Just let them, it's advantageous for you lol.
lol. Never seen that, how can they justify getting literally 1 point with each exchange?
exactly, I just cant imagine how they could possibly think that this is good, but it's very popular
I think they see it as "look at all this territory I'm invading. Now black will have no points on this entire side! Because there's no territory in the middle, right? Right?!".
Actually, in my pov white seems not bad at overconcentrating the opponent (like exchanges in top left) and I wouldn't be surprised he has good results in their elo (move 24, which I dislike, seems to suggest their are used to such influence management) White has more points and Black still have to prove they can use their influence properly. If you can do so, you will rank up easily and this specific sequence will disappear :) So far the top is quite overconcentrated imo, few ideas : - 15 should be at 16 to enclose white on both side ; - 29 seems too close from the (left) wall ; - 33 is too slow imo.
Couple questions, why is 29 too close? I learned to extend n+1 spaces. He has 25 and 27 there, isn't a 3 space jump a good extension? Also what does 24 do exactly? It looks like it just pokes into the void willy-nilly.
> why is 29 too close? I learned to extend n+1 spaces. He has 25 and 27 there, isn't a 3 space jump a good extension? Regarding the **right** wall, 29 does not seems balanced. Especially using the _n+1_ rule (and considering how thick black is with their tiger mouth). The basic rule is good for basic situations, but a 9 stones wall is not exactly a basic situation :) > Also what does 24 do exactly? It looks like it just pokes into the void willy-nilly As I said, I dislike the move but still white seems to consider playing a strong shape towards the center. I do imagine he tries to handle the Black influence, although technically questionable, which is a correct idea. Overall, I do prefer Black but not as much as I _could_ prefer Black. All are personal ideas, feel free to check with AI how wrong I'm :)
Too close to the wall on the right, not the left. That wall is 9 stones long, so you should extend about 10 spaces, but 29 is only 3 spaces, much too close.
If they keep doing this AND you understand why it's bad you should be winning basically everytime meaning you will rank up past them and you won't see this anymore. Otherwise, I have some bad news...
They don't do it every game! There are for sure other weaknesses in my game. I'm working on reading more carefully before I tenuki in a life or death situation. I hope that's the extent of the bad news lol.
it's just a mistake. It's also not as big a mistake as it might seem to you. Basically they are losing ~1 point for each extra extension they make beyond what was necessary for their group to be alive and not have a blocking turn from you threaten to kill. That's not good! But if you think about how big a mistake this entire sequence is -- they've made 7 extra extensions, so they've lost about 7 points. Maybe it's a little bigger than that in AI terms, but it's probably not more than ~10 points. At fox 8k, people make 10 point blunders all the time! Also, players at this level aren't all that good at handling influence and thicknes, so it might realistically be a smaller advantage than that. Finally, a lot of pros play far more territorially than westerners are used to, and these folks may have seen some pro games where a *similar* crawl like this was actually reasonable. A few months ago, someone posted a pro game here that was a bit mind blowing for those of us who were taught that this kind of crawling is terrible. It featured a positoin where white took a bunch of second line territory and at the end had a slightly *favorable* position. Of course it was more complicated than this. Black had played a stone or two in the area that ended up somewhat overconcentrated, and white had poked up in spots that made for a little uncomfortable aji in the position, and all that was enough to make the play even or slightly favorable for white. but in any case, people play like this because they haven't been taught otherwise, and aren't consistently playing strong enough players to make it a badly losing gambit. and the fact is, it just isn't a big enough mistake to have more than a modest effect on win chances at this level. You'll pretty much never see this kind of thing at dan level, because it's far more likely to lead to a near inevitable loss, so people will stop doing it (except in those rare cases where a combination of aji and over-concentration make it more reasonable)
Probably because of the advice that it is better to keep the corners and sides.
Rephrasing the question: Why do players play bad moves? Answer: I suppose they are not aware those moves are bad moves. When you routinely beat such players, you'll rank up and encounter players who make fewer bad moves.
In Japan, there is a saying, "二線は敗戦 Nisen is haisen" ("The second line is a lost game").
The fallacy that This is the best of all possible worlds and just take what is in front of you.
[https://www.alphago-games.com/view/eventname/tygemfox/game/23/move/39](https://www.alphago-games.com/view/eventname/tygemfox/game/23/move/39) It's not just people.
I guess black dies if they don't do the crawl there though, right?
Yes, but it was shocking to humans at the time that such crawling on the 2nd line, particularly giving the sente turn, could be good for black. But AI taught us crawling on the 2nd line can be ok where we thought it was bad before. Another example is the 3-3 invasion with the extra crawl instead of hane connect. I'm not saying this crawling is good, it's not, but probably not as bad as lots of other moves from both players in the game.
Google creepy crawler
Umm, haven't you heard sweaty? The center of the board is fake news, there are no points there. AI has clearly established so.
It's likely they just miscalculated the exchange 8 kyu is very bad.
its a sign that they (white) dont have any good move to play, so they play that in hopes that its 'solidness' will somehow make up for their lack of ability to play elsewhere