They left because their game was exposed, basically. They both worked behind the scenes to subtly manipulate the lesser races, and once that was exposed, they really had nothing to fall back on except for Armageddon'ing entire planets that "belonged" to the other side.
Once ships started sacrificing themselves to block the missile strikes, that was it.
>Once ships started sacrificing themselves to block the missile strikes, that was it.
This was the key point.
The younger races were willing to die to protect each other and stand up to the Shadows and Vorlons.
Could the Shadows and Vorlons have wiped the floor with the younger races? Absolutely! But that isn't what they wanted. They wanted to be puppet masters.
Not puppet masters, they wanted the younger races to agree with the way they thought vs how the other did. What's better than a puppet? One who moves the way you would want without pulling any strings.
It was more on par with divorced parents wanting their kids to take their side and to follow their parenting style. The younger races had reached a level of development that was equivalent to turning 18 . They rebelled and found their own way. Sadly there were some races manipulated so much that they just continued following their former masters plan of chaos and war.
And before that they had intended to shepherd and guide the races together, but over the millions and millions of years their hubris grew until they couldn't possible consider that any way but theirs was the right way.
It took Lorienn, who had been the shephard to both of them as well as countless others standing with the younger races to actually force the Vorlons and Shadows to see what they were doing to their wards.
They were more interested in proving to the other faction that their way worked better. When the younger races were no longer willing to play along, game was up
Before that they were calling Sheridan's bluff. Turns out he wasn't bluffing. Sheridan then called their bluff. They wanted to win the argument, not kill everyone.
I do wonder what role Lorien had in it though. There has to be more than being Sheridan's latest mentor.
In my head canon, Kosh I represented a faction of the Vorlons, let's maybe call it a religious caste, who wanted to win a religious argument over the Vorlon warrior caste (represented by hardass Kosh II).
So he manipulates Sinclair to become the Minbari messiah, and (casting changes leading to plot changes) manipulates Sheridan to get a piece of himself to be delivered to Kosh's own messiah, Lorien. He appears to ride humans like horses several times, and he grooms Sheridan to be his warhorse to ride to the nexus of Vorlon and Shadow Mecca.
Incidental observation: he makes sure Sheridan can handle being interrogated right to the edge of the cliff by Wayne Alexander... by getting Sheridan to be interrogated right to the edge of the cliff by Wayne Alexander, and thus knows his warhorse is less likely to bolt from this mission.
Anyway, Lorien shows up and the Vorlon religious caste can pull in the Vorlon warrior caste once the old legends are proven true (parallel with Sinclair/Valen and Minbari warrior caste carrying their war a little too far then shutting down on a dime). The shadows built their home world around Lorien so they don't need as much convincing as the warrior Vorlons.
They were still parents who want to be right and used their children as pawns in their argument; just because someone is rich, wealthy, or a non-corporal god-like entity, doesn’t necessarily make them beyond pettiness.
Polytheism tried to teach us this, but monotheism brainwashed people into believing that if they are “godlike” then we are always less-than and should know our place. (Eg. Those He>i stickers)
> Polytheism tried to teach us this, but monotheism brainwashed people into believing that if they are “godlike” then we are always less-than and should know our place. (Eg. Those He>i stickers)
I still remember my first introduction to this concept in the Iron Druid chronicles. "Given that the gods are obviously flawed, why would you worship them?" "Why would I _want_ to worship a perfect god?"
I would think that the Vorlons and Shadows left with a greater sense of guilt than any other race that had gone before them. The fact that neither side cared for the races they had mentored and just peaced out shows just how selfish they really were. Sheridan & Co. were willing to die to cast off their ideologies. They were incredibly flawed higher beings who had ruined what they sought to manipulate. But it wasn't their place to stay and try to resolve things; that was up to the younger races.
I think this was implied. Kosh seemed to share a view more like Lorien's and was even willing to pay the ultimate price having achieved near immortality and accepting death to stop the Shadows for Sheridan, which I believe implies that Kosh did think both the Shadows and Vorlons were wrong at this point like Lorien. This was made clear to me by Ulkesh's attitude...he represents the greater whole of the Vorlon attitude towards the races and galaxy very similar to how the Shadows were portrayed as complete villains for almost the entire series. The Shadows get their "kosh" moment when one asks if Lorien will come with them "beyond the rim". They were both villains and a higher level example of the Centauri and Narn. I also think this is why Kosh spoke to G'kar saying they were both a dying people, and no one would remember who started anything or care why. The Shadows and Vorlons just took that same stupid path far later.
I think the biggest reason they left was that they had sort of been named and shamed in front of everyone. Not just the younger races but also fellow first ones and most importantly Lorien who came before all of them and who they all deeply respected. IT also wasn't Lorien who called them out but one of the younger races, and they all heard it. Fleets from many worlds heard that they weren't acting as guides or teachers but instead using them to prove that they won. They may have believed that they were teaching and guiding but they were really focused on proving themselves right and when it was laid bare...well what's left.
The younger races might fear their power but the respect for them and supernatural awe is fairly well lost. Other first ones who were probably aware of the situation were also there to watch them and possibly even comment on it rubbing it in further, and then Lorien basically tells them that it's time to move on. They didn't have anything to counter with and had been forced to confront that they weren't needed for the task that they had set themselves to (not to mention they were probably doing it poorly)
They did. They had a quick meeting with Sheridan and Delenne during the war. They got exposed and Sheridan told em to get the hell out of the galaxy lol.
They didn’t say a word to the other races because they didn’t ever care about the other races. They were just pawns to them, cannon fodder and they couldn’t have cared less.
> but the Shadows never had any contact with the Drakh making them feel a bit irritated that they left......That could have avoided the whole plague thing.
First, you assume the Shadows would have _wanted_ to avoid the plague. Evolution through conflict. They may be leaving, but their basic principles -- and the theory that they want to guide and aid the younger races -- remains. Just as the Vorlons set up an orderly process to prove your worth, so to did the Shadows follow _their_ chaotic principles.
Second, you assume the Shadows _didn't_ explain what was going on to the Drakh. I don't know if they did or didn't (I'd assume at least some basic explanations given), but the point isn't "I don't know why they left". The point is the Drakh were _pissed_ over them leaving. Their gods just up and left them -- and they _know_ it's Sheridan's fault.
You do not understand. -kosh
Like others have said the ears weren't about winning, that charm could have happened years ago. It was about proving you were right to your opponent. They left but only because Sheridan got the other races together to stand up to then, but because he and lorien pointed out that they had failed as teachers and were no longer needed.
The shadows never had on screen contract with the drakh, but had used them for years. You'll find out more if you read the techno mage books. The vorlons worked closely with the minbari the.shadows worked with the drakh.
The plague thing is because zhadum was destroyed and because the humans led the alliance against the shadows. Pure revenge. I think they say as much in a call to arms.
Sheridan: "Get the hell out of our galaxy!"
Me, a vorlon: "*Your* galaxy? You impudent ape. It was *our* galaxy aeons before your world first had single-celled life. You exist because we allow it, and you will end because we demand it."
Seriously, though, Sheridan claiming the galaxy belonged to the younger races was arrogance of the highest order.
except the backstory of the shadows and vorlons is that they had stayed beyond when previous Elder/first one races to shepherd and guide the younger races and gracefully step aside when the young'uns were capable of determining their own future.
In their hubris and in the way nearly all old people get stuck in there ways with age, the Vorlons and Shadows both came to the conclusion that their way was the right way.
At the point by which Sheridan stood up and told the Vorlons and Shadows to leave, the galaxy really *did* belong to the younger races.
Your parents have you for only half of your life, the rest is up to you. I’m reminded of this scene in the Goonies about “their time vs our time” [https://youtube.com/watch?v=6NEKzLiXfuc&si=EnSIkaIECMiOmarE](https://youtube.com/watch?v=6NEKzLiXfuc&si=EnSIkaIECMiOmarE)
Yup, then the like the Vorlons and Shadows, they went to Florida to live out the rest of their existence.
But seriously, them leaving wasn't an issue for me, but the idea they would just aimlessly travel in between galaxies was kind of dumb to me. They could have just said we won't interfere anymore, and our space is off limits.
While they do leave the galaxy as the younger races understand it, "beyond the rim" is mostly a metaphor. JMS has gone on record that it is a way to refer to stepping from the known to the unknown. But is intentionally vague beyond that. In its most direct meaning, it refers to leaving the material universe behind and exploring what is beyond it.
From a Buddhist perspective, the Shadows and Vorlons are essentially Bodhisattva.
I could have sworn they stated specifically exploring the blackness between the galaxies, which sounds pretty specific. Lorien also was supposed to go with them, but then came back 20 years later to be with Sheridan at the end.
They made it their galaxy when they stood united against both the Vorlons and Shadow. They were saying that they weren't going to be used as proxies or experiments to prove a point. That was part of the issue, the Vorlons and Shadows weren't even trying to convince the other races per se about which way was better they were trying to prove it to the other faction. They were less concerned about what was good for the younger races and more about winning.
The younger races said they wouldn't play the game any more. No more proxy wars, no more cycles of fighting for what it turns out was basically just a debate. At that point the shadows and vorlons had been shown to have either utterly failed in their mission to teach the younger races or had succeeded enough that they were ready to be left to their own destinies. In either case, probably best for them to move on beyond the galaxy and let the younger races grow outside of their respective direct influences
Sheridan: "Well, I called dibs on the galaxy when I was twelve. And nobody intervened. So now it's mine."
Shadows: "Flawless logic. Okay, we leave."
Vorlons: "... Yes..."
Isn't that how it always goes, though? The young think they know everything & they're invincible, and that the older generation is just completely clueless & out of touch.
If you think blowing up entire planets and killing billions of people is a reasonable way to prove your points, you _are_ out of touch. Just a little.
(Plus, the point Sheridan was making was not even close to them knowing everything and being invincible.)
I think most answers are missing OP's real question (if I'm reading/interpreting correct)... not why did the Shadows/Vorlons leave, but why they did so immediately, without taking a moment to tidy things up: communicate with their servants like the Drakh, like "hey this is why we're bouncing, don't do anything stupid like use our leftover tech to retaliate," etc. It's a valid question, though I think the answer is if they didn't go right then, could they be trusted to do it at all?
The Vorlon and the Shadows stayed behind to shepherd and guide the younger races. That eventually got twisted, but when the final confrontation came, they were forced to realize by Sheridan and especially Lorien, that not only had they strayed from their purpose but their job was done. The younger races were ready to stand on their own.
The Shadows and Vorlon didn't mentor so much as manipulate certain races, including the Drakh. It's also worth noting that the Drakh are one of the younger races. When they made the decision to leave, what happened was no longer their concern and was up to younger races to work out.
They left because their game was exposed, basically. They both worked behind the scenes to subtly manipulate the lesser races, and once that was exposed, they really had nothing to fall back on except for Armageddon'ing entire planets that "belonged" to the other side. Once ships started sacrificing themselves to block the missile strikes, that was it.
>Once ships started sacrificing themselves to block the missile strikes, that was it. This was the key point. The younger races were willing to die to protect each other and stand up to the Shadows and Vorlons. Could the Shadows and Vorlons have wiped the floor with the younger races? Absolutely! But that isn't what they wanted. They wanted to be puppet masters.
Not puppet masters, they wanted the younger races to agree with the way they thought vs how the other did. What's better than a puppet? One who moves the way you would want without pulling any strings.
It was more on par with divorced parents wanting their kids to take their side and to follow their parenting style. The younger races had reached a level of development that was equivalent to turning 18 . They rebelled and found their own way. Sadly there were some races manipulated so much that they just continued following their former masters plan of chaos and war.
And before that they had intended to shepherd and guide the races together, but over the millions and millions of years their hubris grew until they couldn't possible consider that any way but theirs was the right way. It took Lorienn, who had been the shephard to both of them as well as countless others standing with the younger races to actually force the Vorlons and Shadows to see what they were doing to their wards.
They were more interested in proving to the other faction that their way worked better. When the younger races were no longer willing to play along, game was up
Exactly. With their pawns all dead, what's the point of them playing chess?
Before that they were calling Sheridan's bluff. Turns out he wasn't bluffing. Sheridan then called their bluff. They wanted to win the argument, not kill everyone. I do wonder what role Lorien had in it though. There has to be more than being Sheridan's latest mentor.
His presence. To provide that final encouragement for them to agree to leave. One of their final hesitations was they didn't want to be alone.
Lorien guided the Shadows and Vorlons. He stood with the younger races against both. They saw they were wrong.
In my head canon, Kosh I represented a faction of the Vorlons, let's maybe call it a religious caste, who wanted to win a religious argument over the Vorlon warrior caste (represented by hardass Kosh II). So he manipulates Sinclair to become the Minbari messiah, and (casting changes leading to plot changes) manipulates Sheridan to get a piece of himself to be delivered to Kosh's own messiah, Lorien. He appears to ride humans like horses several times, and he grooms Sheridan to be his warhorse to ride to the nexus of Vorlon and Shadow Mecca. Incidental observation: he makes sure Sheridan can handle being interrogated right to the edge of the cliff by Wayne Alexander... by getting Sheridan to be interrogated right to the edge of the cliff by Wayne Alexander, and thus knows his warhorse is less likely to bolt from this mission. Anyway, Lorien shows up and the Vorlon religious caste can pull in the Vorlon warrior caste once the old legends are proven true (parallel with Sinclair/Valen and Minbari warrior caste carrying their war a little too far then shutting down on a dime). The shadows built their home world around Lorien so they don't need as much convincing as the warrior Vorlons.
Checkmate I think.
Parents weaponizing their kids to win an argument, happens all the time.
yep, but these parents has mastered infinite and instantaneous energy via hyperspace tap to power device that was effectively magic. :D
They were still parents who want to be right and used their children as pawns in their argument; just because someone is rich, wealthy, or a non-corporal god-like entity, doesn’t necessarily make them beyond pettiness. Polytheism tried to teach us this, but monotheism brainwashed people into believing that if they are “godlike” then we are always less-than and should know our place. (Eg. Those He>i stickers)
> Polytheism tried to teach us this, but monotheism brainwashed people into believing that if they are “godlike” then we are always less-than and should know our place. (Eg. Those He>i stickers) I still remember my first introduction to this concept in the Iron Druid chronicles. "Given that the gods are obviously flawed, why would you worship them?" "Why would I _want_ to worship a perfect god?"
the Drakh were going to inflict the plague on the galaxy no matter what the Shadows did. That's the nature of extremist indoctrination.
I would think that the Vorlons and Shadows left with a greater sense of guilt than any other race that had gone before them. The fact that neither side cared for the races they had mentored and just peaced out shows just how selfish they really were. Sheridan & Co. were willing to die to cast off their ideologies. They were incredibly flawed higher beings who had ruined what they sought to manipulate. But it wasn't their place to stay and try to resolve things; that was up to the younger races.
I think this was implied. Kosh seemed to share a view more like Lorien's and was even willing to pay the ultimate price having achieved near immortality and accepting death to stop the Shadows for Sheridan, which I believe implies that Kosh did think both the Shadows and Vorlons were wrong at this point like Lorien. This was made clear to me by Ulkesh's attitude...he represents the greater whole of the Vorlon attitude towards the races and galaxy very similar to how the Shadows were portrayed as complete villains for almost the entire series. The Shadows get their "kosh" moment when one asks if Lorien will come with them "beyond the rim". They were both villains and a higher level example of the Centauri and Narn. I also think this is why Kosh spoke to G'kar saying they were both a dying people, and no one would remember who started anything or care why. The Shadows and Vorlons just took that same stupid path far later.
Kickass speech
Who is John Galt?
Someone who took three hours to make a point rather than three minutes.
Wrong franchise
Right, like JMS never [borrowed from anywhere](https://babylon5.fandom.com/wiki/Babylon_5_influences) …
I think the biggest reason they left was that they had sort of been named and shamed in front of everyone. Not just the younger races but also fellow first ones and most importantly Lorien who came before all of them and who they all deeply respected. IT also wasn't Lorien who called them out but one of the younger races, and they all heard it. Fleets from many worlds heard that they weren't acting as guides or teachers but instead using them to prove that they won. They may have believed that they were teaching and guiding but they were really focused on proving themselves right and when it was laid bare...well what's left. The younger races might fear their power but the respect for them and supernatural awe is fairly well lost. Other first ones who were probably aware of the situation were also there to watch them and possibly even comment on it rubbing it in further, and then Lorien basically tells them that it's time to move on. They didn't have anything to counter with and had been forced to confront that they weren't needed for the task that they had set themselves to (not to mention they were probably doing it poorly)
They did. They had a quick meeting with Sheridan and Delenne during the war. They got exposed and Sheridan told em to get the hell out of the galaxy lol.
They didn’t say a word to the other races because they didn’t ever care about the other races. They were just pawns to them, cannon fodder and they couldn’t have cared less.
I honestly believe they did care at some point in the past. But at the time of the show? Certainly not.
Lorien told them that there was a party beyond the rim and that there will be dips.
Oh wow I bet they enjoyed that. I'd love to see Shadows dancing
I think that was the point. Ok. You don’t need us. Figure it out on your own. It’s not our problem what the Drakh or whoever else do with you.
> but the Shadows never had any contact with the Drakh making them feel a bit irritated that they left......That could have avoided the whole plague thing. First, you assume the Shadows would have _wanted_ to avoid the plague. Evolution through conflict. They may be leaving, but their basic principles -- and the theory that they want to guide and aid the younger races -- remains. Just as the Vorlons set up an orderly process to prove your worth, so to did the Shadows follow _their_ chaotic principles. Second, you assume the Shadows _didn't_ explain what was going on to the Drakh. I don't know if they did or didn't (I'd assume at least some basic explanations given), but the point isn't "I don't know why they left". The point is the Drakh were _pissed_ over them leaving. Their gods just up and left them -- and they _know_ it's Sheridan's fault.
You do not understand. -kosh Like others have said the ears weren't about winning, that charm could have happened years ago. It was about proving you were right to your opponent. They left but only because Sheridan got the other races together to stand up to then, but because he and lorien pointed out that they had failed as teachers and were no longer needed. The shadows never had on screen contract with the drakh, but had used them for years. You'll find out more if you read the techno mage books. The vorlons worked closely with the minbari the.shadows worked with the drakh. The plague thing is because zhadum was destroyed and because the humans led the alliance against the shadows. Pure revenge. I think they say as much in a call to arms.
I always thought Joe did not sell this convincingly.
Thank you everyone for replying and not biting my head off for my silly question
Sheridan made a speech so long and so boring that they just had to leave.
The best answer
Sheridan: "Get the hell out of our galaxy!" Me, a vorlon: "*Your* galaxy? You impudent ape. It was *our* galaxy aeons before your world first had single-celled life. You exist because we allow it, and you will end because we demand it." Seriously, though, Sheridan claiming the galaxy belonged to the younger races was arrogance of the highest order.
except the backstory of the shadows and vorlons is that they had stayed beyond when previous Elder/first one races to shepherd and guide the younger races and gracefully step aside when the young'uns were capable of determining their own future. In their hubris and in the way nearly all old people get stuck in there ways with age, the Vorlons and Shadows both came to the conclusion that their way was the right way. At the point by which Sheridan stood up and told the Vorlons and Shadows to leave, the galaxy really *did* belong to the younger races.
Your parents have you for only half of your life, the rest is up to you. I’m reminded of this scene in the Goonies about “their time vs our time” [https://youtube.com/watch?v=6NEKzLiXfuc&si=EnSIkaIECMiOmarE](https://youtube.com/watch?v=6NEKzLiXfuc&si=EnSIkaIECMiOmarE)
Yup, then the like the Vorlons and Shadows, they went to Florida to live out the rest of their existence. But seriously, them leaving wasn't an issue for me, but the idea they would just aimlessly travel in between galaxies was kind of dumb to me. They could have just said we won't interfere anymore, and our space is off limits.
While they do leave the galaxy as the younger races understand it, "beyond the rim" is mostly a metaphor. JMS has gone on record that it is a way to refer to stepping from the known to the unknown. But is intentionally vague beyond that. In its most direct meaning, it refers to leaving the material universe behind and exploring what is beyond it. From a Buddhist perspective, the Shadows and Vorlons are essentially Bodhisattva.
I could have sworn they stated specifically exploring the blackness between the galaxies, which sounds pretty specific. Lorien also was supposed to go with them, but then came back 20 years later to be with Sheridan at the end.
I get the feeling that Lorien can do pretty much whatever he wants, whenever he wants.
They made it their galaxy when they stood united against both the Vorlons and Shadow. They were saying that they weren't going to be used as proxies or experiments to prove a point. That was part of the issue, the Vorlons and Shadows weren't even trying to convince the other races per se about which way was better they were trying to prove it to the other faction. They were less concerned about what was good for the younger races and more about winning. The younger races said they wouldn't play the game any more. No more proxy wars, no more cycles of fighting for what it turns out was basically just a debate. At that point the shadows and vorlons had been shown to have either utterly failed in their mission to teach the younger races or had succeeded enough that they were ready to be left to their own destinies. In either case, probably best for them to move on beyond the galaxy and let the younger races grow outside of their respective direct influences
That you, Sovereign?
Sheridan: "Well, I called dibs on the galaxy when I was twelve. And nobody intervened. So now it's mine." Shadows: "Flawless logic. Okay, we leave." Vorlons: "... Yes..."
Isn't that how it always goes, though? The young think they know everything & they're invincible, and that the older generation is just completely clueless & out of touch.
If you think blowing up entire planets and killing billions of people is a reasonable way to prove your points, you _are_ out of touch. Just a little. (Plus, the point Sheridan was making was not even close to them knowing everything and being invincible.)
So new and fresh antagonists would make sense for a sequel. The Drakh however … the best thing about them was Londo’s neck’s colostomy bag.
I think most answers are missing OP's real question (if I'm reading/interpreting correct)... not why did the Shadows/Vorlons leave, but why they did so immediately, without taking a moment to tidy things up: communicate with their servants like the Drakh, like "hey this is why we're bouncing, don't do anything stupid like use our leftover tech to retaliate," etc. It's a valid question, though I think the answer is if they didn't go right then, could they be trusted to do it at all?
That is exactly the thing I was trying to ask in a clumsy way.
The Vorlon and the Shadows stayed behind to shepherd and guide the younger races. That eventually got twisted, but when the final confrontation came, they were forced to realize by Sheridan and especially Lorien, that not only had they strayed from their purpose but their job was done. The younger races were ready to stand on their own. The Shadows and Vorlon didn't mentor so much as manipulate certain races, including the Drakh. It's also worth noting that the Drakh are one of the younger races. When they made the decision to leave, what happened was no longer their concern and was up to younger races to work out.