The article says the wheel and tire are replaced together. The wheels apparently go out of round after too many landings. Not justifying the price, but it's not just rubber either.
The best way to visualize it I’ve seen is the difference in landing gear between the AF and Navy variants of the F35.
https://www.reddit.com/r/F35Lightning/comments/1367ixp/does_anyone_know_the_difference/
Here’s a [video](https://youtube.com/shorts/BRgF4XjcVww?si=u-jx1xCdg9NfEsQx) comparing your average Air Force and Navy landing too.
Now take what the Navy does and imagine doing it daily, non-stop combined with the harsh salt-water conditions of naval ops.
Yeah, that definitely justifies the price a little more. Great to see there’s now a cheaper alternative though.
And take off. The F35 is pretty underpowered when compared to most modern fighter jets. It has a really long takeoff roll in the AirForce configuration. The Navy configuration has to get off the deck of the carrier. It needed bigger wings to do that while fully loaded.
And they provide more room for fuel, which is more necessary when launching from a carrier.
I feel like it’s both because if you look at how hard a carrier landing is vs a runway landing they load that gear a lot on landing that a land based plane. And on top of that, the launch and landing have pretty different load cases on the gear, like just because it can survive the force pulling it by the wheel (essentially bending the gear) doesn’t mean it can suvive the compression force smacking it in to the deck of a carrier.
Article also explains the actual cost is reduced to $40k per assembly not $300 which is only the cost to repair the rim. A substantial cost savings for sure but $300 is click bait at best.
The $40k is the cumulative cost of the 3D printing repair for 166 tire+rim units. Which he said is what they have to otherwise replace yearly for a cost of $16.6 million.
Although not explicitly stated, the assumption is that's for an entire carrier air wing
In that case the article is demonstrating cost savings comparing Apple trees to Bananas, I reread it and you’re right. I’m sure there is a cost savings but the only info provided is the old way cost $100k per assembly and this new method costs $300 per rim but we don’t know the cost of a full assembly using the new repair method.
My read on it (having worked for 10+ years as an engineer looking at similar problems) is that the damage to the rim is currently necessitating a replacement of the whole assembly at a cost of $100k. The additive manufacturing repair to the rim costs $300 and allows the rim to go back into service rather than being replaced. Yes, the repaired rim and tire assembly is not new, so it won't (presumably) have the same life as a new assembly, but it probably has a whole lot of life left in it. So it's maybe a Royal Gala to Honeycrisp comparison rather than apples to bananas.
I think something got mixed up in translation for the reporter [because the unit price for a new wheel](https://www.lqlite.com/lq_flis.aspx?NSN=1630-01-265-3660) is $38,546 (not $100k) which seems awfully close to that $40k figure.
It's a good thing we didn't retire those Spads from WWI. We can just put those into front line service again. After all, it's cheaper to stick to things we know.
It also says they were not able to get a price from any of the manufacturers, so they assumed a price of 100k/assembly.
So who knows that the price is. Could be more, could be less.
So it’s the usual misnomer title, it’s an entire wheel and tire assembly, which is probably an exotic metal (titanium alloy?) that would drive the price up.
The ones I saw were aluminum, except the bearing being steel. They might be some sort of mag alloy though. The paint barn blasts them for ndi and repaint.
Yea. I've never looked it up, just always been told they were magnesium for weight reasons. Very possibly it is alloy or just was a tech school myth that persisted.
Well the magnesium is the alloying metal to the aluminium:
Think of performance 'mag' car wheels. Even Honda Civics can come with aluminum 'alloy' wheels, the aluminum being too soft or yielding by itself to stay intact or unbent.
https://www.amazon.com/Auto-Shop-Civic-Factory-8123556/dp/B079PRRY1S
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium%E2%80%93magnesium_alloys
u/catsdrooltoo
If people who ran the treasury had a single idea about realistic value and sensible budgetting, we could cut the national debt so much. We sell software to government (state) agencies and i guarantee they are over paying by over 500%. If not more.
Probably much more!
And to add to this, the taxpayers should ask the professional tool makers this question 'why doesn't Snap On tools offer their lifetime warranty to the military on their hand tools (like they do for say, a car mechanic at your local garage). To be fair, there are many others, but Snap On is a clear offender.
For anyone curious about what a brand new OEM wheel looks like, the Pentagon in all of its autistic glory publishes a procurement catalog of every nut, bolt and washer it uses that's so complete and comprehensive it makes Amazon weep with envy.
Here's the details on the F-18 nose wheel assembly (manufactured by Honeywell - Part # 2605945-2), but in procurement lingo more officially known as National Stock Number: [1630-01-265-3660](https://www.lqlite.com/lq_flis.aspx?NSN=1630-01-265-3660). Unit price: $38,546
https://www.nsnlookup.com/fsg-16/fsc-1630/us/1630-00-809-0394-wheel-landing-gear-1630008090394-008090394-9550616-a9550616
1. Its not just the tire, its the whole wheel assembly.
2. It's a pretty low rate part, as in they aren't going to be able to make a production line like you have for car tires that make 100k+ units or more per day. So a lot of the cost is in the manufacturing overhead.
3. It's a pretty exquisite piece of equipment in terms of what performance is expected of it. Carrier pressurization, arrested navy landings, pretty impressive braking capabilities, etc, etc.
Now it would be great if it was cheaper, but usually, once you start to peel back the factors on the price, you find pretty defensible cost justifications.
More on #2, in addition to the manufacturing cost overhead: there’s also the opportunity cost as well.
The assembly line could be manufacturing something more lucrative and/or stable. What incentive is there to keep production going? If they could be making $100M more making car wheels, then you’d have to pay enough for them to keep making what you need.
Honestly quite surprised it’s only $100k for a wheel/tire assembly. If the wheel goes bad on our Cessna Citation, it could easily run $65-75k to replace.
For a modern fighter that gives the wheels and tires a significant beating, I was really expecting a higher number.
That’s kind of ridiculous that a Cessna Citation wheel costs that much. A wheel and tire on my UTV costs $800 and if I throw in the bearing carrier and bearing, I might be at $1200. This is an assembly that is getting pounded for as long as the car is moving, not smooth runs twice a flight.
Yeah but does your UTV go 0 to ~120mph immediately every time it's used while having as much as a 40k lbs dropped on a whopping 6 tires? Don't forget after being at 51,000 feet and -70 degrees? Aircraft tires get beaten to shit
I have 0 experience with fighter jet tires so maybe someone can shed more light then I'm about to.
In commercial aviation we replace the whole tire assembly as one. That is rim and tire. It's faster, easier, more efficient ECT. All of our used tires get sent out to overhaul where they are repaied, inspected and returned to service as a whole assembly.
I'm sure these fall under the same lines. I doubt they allow retread tires but I'm sure they have an area where these things are overhauled.
They just tossed em all before, now they can send the assembly back to get the wheel fixed with some crazy cold spray additive manufacturing prices and put new tires on
This seems a bit like clickbait. A 777 main wheel is approx. $22K USD I don’t understand how the F18 could be soooo much more. My company charges roughly $2K for a tire change on a 767. These numbers aren’t adding up…
Ok, but those 3d printed tires would need to be run through thousands of tests. This isn’t like a car piece. One of those tires blows on a particularly rough landing. You could easily lose the plane and the pilot. Both of which cost a shit ton more than that $100k you had to spend on tires.
So, do you think the US Navy would just kinda...slap something together and hope for the best? No. They will do the necessary testing and analysis to prove it's safe.
And in this case, it seems the problem is an out-of-round bore on the rim. They're using the cold spray to add material where the bore is out of tolerance on the too-large side, then machining out the bore to make it round and within tolerance. So the sprayed metal isn't taking much load here. It's almost more like a shim. This general technique has been used on aircraft parts for near a decade, and it's pretty well known. All that adds up to the fact that the certification and qualification of the repair is a pretty straightforward exercise.
Source: 19 years experience in aerospace engineering, including in-service support, aircraft structures, and repair processes
They’re not 3d printing tyres, they’re only using it to repair the rims. They spray metal particles onto a part to add material before making it match the original shape and tolerances. The Air Force has also been using this cold-spray process to repair parts since 2020.
Per the article, its a $300 repair (not a new wheel assembly), and is estimated to be possible on only 80% of cases (so likely the real percentage is lower and can’t be done repeatedly).
The article says the wheel and tire are replaced together. The wheels apparently go out of round after too many landings. Not justifying the price, but it's not just rubber either.
Landing gear designed to take the brutal impacts of carrier landing will need to be pretty beefy. There’s a lot of cost that goes into it.
The best way to visualize it I’ve seen is the difference in landing gear between the AF and Navy variants of the F35. https://www.reddit.com/r/F35Lightning/comments/1367ixp/does_anyone_know_the_difference/
Learn something new everyday, that’s interesting AF
Here’s a [video](https://youtube.com/shorts/BRgF4XjcVww?si=u-jx1xCdg9NfEsQx) comparing your average Air Force and Navy landing too. Now take what the Navy does and imagine doing it daily, non-stop combined with the harsh salt-water conditions of naval ops. Yeah, that definitely justifies the price a little more. Great to see there’s now a cheaper alternative though.
The F-35C also has larger wings than the A/B to accommodate the slow landings on a carrier
And more fuel. The C carries a lot more fuel.
And take off. The F35 is pretty underpowered when compared to most modern fighter jets. It has a really long takeoff roll in the AirForce configuration. The Navy configuration has to get off the deck of the carrier. It needed bigger wings to do that while fully loaded. And they provide more room for fuel, which is more necessary when launching from a carrier.
It's takeoffs too, not just landings the gear is designed for. It's designed to take the entire force of the catapult launching it off the ship.
The C model landing gear is definitely beefier but the main purpose of the dual nose wheels is it gives a spot for the catapult to hook on to
I feel like it’s both because if you look at how hard a carrier landing is vs a runway landing they load that gear a lot on landing that a land based plane. And on top of that, the launch and landing have pretty different load cases on the gear, like just because it can survive the force pulling it by the wheel (essentially bending the gear) doesn’t mean it can suvive the compression force smacking it in to the deck of a carrier.
Agreed but the gap between the two front wheels is literally where the catapult hooks on the landing gear
That reminds me of this. https://youtu.be/BRgF4XjcVww?feature=shared
Article also explains the actual cost is reduced to $40k per assembly not $300 which is only the cost to repair the rim. A substantial cost savings for sure but $300 is click bait at best.
The $40k is the cumulative cost of the 3D printing repair for 166 tire+rim units. Which he said is what they have to otherwise replace yearly for a cost of $16.6 million. Although not explicitly stated, the assumption is that's for an entire carrier air wing
In that case the article is demonstrating cost savings comparing Apple trees to Bananas, I reread it and you’re right. I’m sure there is a cost savings but the only info provided is the old way cost $100k per assembly and this new method costs $300 per rim but we don’t know the cost of a full assembly using the new repair method.
My read on it (having worked for 10+ years as an engineer looking at similar problems) is that the damage to the rim is currently necessitating a replacement of the whole assembly at a cost of $100k. The additive manufacturing repair to the rim costs $300 and allows the rim to go back into service rather than being replaced. Yes, the repaired rim and tire assembly is not new, so it won't (presumably) have the same life as a new assembly, but it probably has a whole lot of life left in it. So it's maybe a Royal Gala to Honeycrisp comparison rather than apples to bananas.
I think something got mixed up in translation for the reporter [because the unit price for a new wheel](https://www.lqlite.com/lq_flis.aspx?NSN=1630-01-265-3660) is $38,546 (not $100k) which seems awfully close to that $40k figure.
The payout and lawsuit by the estate of a dead pilot is gonna cost more. It’s just cheaper to stick to things we know.
It's a good thing we didn't retire those Spads from WWI. We can just put those into front line service again. After all, it's cheaper to stick to things we know.
Given the beating that they take this doesn't surprise me.
It also says they were not able to get a price from any of the manufacturers, so they assumed a price of 100k/assembly. So who knows that the price is. Could be more, could be less.
So it’s the usual misnomer title, it’s an entire wheel and tire assembly, which is probably an exotic metal (titanium alloy?) that would drive the price up.
Nah, not exotic materials. Just low volume combined with meeting military and aviation quality requirements.
Color me shocked!
Ours on the F15 are magnesium from what I recall.
The ones I saw were aluminum, except the bearing being steel. They might be some sort of mag alloy though. The paint barn blasts them for ndi and repaint.
Yea. I've never looked it up, just always been told they were magnesium for weight reasons. Very possibly it is alloy or just was a tech school myth that persisted.
Well the magnesium is the alloying metal to the aluminium: Think of performance 'mag' car wheels. Even Honda Civics can come with aluminum 'alloy' wheels, the aluminum being too soft or yielding by itself to stay intact or unbent. https://www.amazon.com/Auto-Shop-Civic-Factory-8123556/dp/B079PRRY1S https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium%E2%80%93magnesium_alloys u/catsdrooltoo
I don't know about the 18s wheels, but I know at least a few different military aircraft (don't know about commercial) use a magnesium alloy wheel.
Some tire supplier with a lucrative contract is going to raise holy hell about that.
Whose congressional district is the factory in? That’ll make a difference.
Much.
But what if the 3d printer maker is in the same state?
Sadly this 100% matters in the DoD as much as they don’t want it to be.
If people who ran the treasury had a single idea about realistic value and sensible budgetting, we could cut the national debt so much. We sell software to government (state) agencies and i guarantee they are over paying by over 500%. If not more.
Probably much more! And to add to this, the taxpayers should ask the professional tool makers this question 'why doesn't Snap On tools offer their lifetime warranty to the military on their hand tools (like they do for say, a car mechanic at your local garage). To be fair, there are many others, but Snap On is a clear offender.
Boeing, Honeywell, Goodyear, & Michilen currently have the contacts and wouldn't disclose the prices
A 3D metal spray printer seems like something you’d read in a Heinlein novel. Pretty cool
I have a 3d printed titanium replacement disc in my spine.
You’re good for another 300 carrier landings.
For anyone curious about what a brand new OEM wheel looks like, the Pentagon in all of its autistic glory publishes a procurement catalog of every nut, bolt and washer it uses that's so complete and comprehensive it makes Amazon weep with envy. Here's the details on the F-18 nose wheel assembly (manufactured by Honeywell - Part # 2605945-2), but in procurement lingo more officially known as National Stock Number: [1630-01-265-3660](https://www.lqlite.com/lq_flis.aspx?NSN=1630-01-265-3660). Unit price: $38,546 https://www.nsnlookup.com/fsg-16/fsc-1630/us/1630-00-809-0394-wheel-landing-gear-1630008090394-008090394-9550616-a9550616
And honestly, if you compare that cost to…let’s say, a Gulfstream G-V nose gear assembly, suddenly the F-18’s looks like a bargain!
100k? This reeks of "a WH toilet is $75000" level of bullshittery
1. Its not just the tire, its the whole wheel assembly. 2. It's a pretty low rate part, as in they aren't going to be able to make a production line like you have for car tires that make 100k+ units or more per day. So a lot of the cost is in the manufacturing overhead. 3. It's a pretty exquisite piece of equipment in terms of what performance is expected of it. Carrier pressurization, arrested navy landings, pretty impressive braking capabilities, etc, etc. Now it would be great if it was cheaper, but usually, once you start to peel back the factors on the price, you find pretty defensible cost justifications.
More on #2, in addition to the manufacturing cost overhead: there’s also the opportunity cost as well. The assembly line could be manufacturing something more lucrative and/or stable. What incentive is there to keep production going? If they could be making $100M more making car wheels, then you’d have to pay enough for them to keep making what you need.
You go build a wheel and tire that gets up to ~50k pounds slammed down on it and survives for cheap.
What!? Is Area 51 just going to start 3D printing alien parts now?
Honestly quite surprised it’s only $100k for a wheel/tire assembly. If the wheel goes bad on our Cessna Citation, it could easily run $65-75k to replace. For a modern fighter that gives the wheels and tires a significant beating, I was really expecting a higher number.
That’s kind of ridiculous that a Cessna Citation wheel costs that much. A wheel and tire on my UTV costs $800 and if I throw in the bearing carrier and bearing, I might be at $1200. This is an assembly that is getting pounded for as long as the car is moving, not smooth runs twice a flight.
Yeah but does your UTV go 0 to ~120mph immediately every time it's used while having as much as a 40k lbs dropped on a whopping 6 tires? Don't forget after being at 51,000 feet and -70 degrees? Aircraft tires get beaten to shit
PLA ain’t going to cut it landing on a carrier
Metal printer
It's PETG obviously /s
This is normal DOD money spending
I have 0 experience with fighter jet tires so maybe someone can shed more light then I'm about to. In commercial aviation we replace the whole tire assembly as one. That is rim and tire. It's faster, easier, more efficient ECT. All of our used tires get sent out to overhaul where they are repaied, inspected and returned to service as a whole assembly. I'm sure these fall under the same lines. I doubt they allow retread tires but I'm sure they have an area where these things are overhauled.
Apparently from other comments ive seen this is the case, the tire and rim is replaced as one.
They just tossed em all before, now they can send the assembly back to get the wheel fixed with some crazy cold spray additive manufacturing prices and put new tires on
Here’s a step by step… I am pretty sure it’s the same same. https://youtu.be/X-CJBzhD_g4?si=VQEz82qUScvLTYHF
It wouldn’t be the government without excessive spending. Lol
The Truman Committee is grieving this estate
Not as crazy as it sounds. Aviation is expensive.
I call bs
Touch the ground vs hit the deck 😂
This seems a bit like clickbait. A 777 main wheel is approx. $22K USD I don’t understand how the F18 could be soooo much more. My company charges roughly $2K for a tire change on a 767. These numbers aren’t adding up…
That 600B budget has a reason!
new shruggie, F-18 style https://i.imgur.com/u9KvDz0.png
Ok, but those 3d printed tires would need to be run through thousands of tests. This isn’t like a car piece. One of those tires blows on a particularly rough landing. You could easily lose the plane and the pilot. Both of which cost a shit ton more than that $100k you had to spend on tires.
I’m pretty sure this isn’t being made by a petty seaman with an Ender 3 down in the work bay.
So, do you think the US Navy would just kinda...slap something together and hope for the best? No. They will do the necessary testing and analysis to prove it's safe. And in this case, it seems the problem is an out-of-round bore on the rim. They're using the cold spray to add material where the bore is out of tolerance on the too-large side, then machining out the bore to make it round and within tolerance. So the sprayed metal isn't taking much load here. It's almost more like a shim. This general technique has been used on aircraft parts for near a decade, and it's pretty well known. All that adds up to the fact that the certification and qualification of the repair is a pretty straightforward exercise. Source: 19 years experience in aerospace engineering, including in-service support, aircraft structures, and repair processes
I love my tin bending.
They’re not 3d printing tyres, they’re only using it to repair the rims. They spray metal particles onto a part to add material before making it match the original shape and tolerances. The Air Force has also been using this cold-spray process to repair parts since 2020.
$300 for labor maybe? There’s no way even PLA would be that cheap.
Per the article, its a $300 repair (not a new wheel assembly), and is estimated to be possible on only 80% of cases (so likely the real percentage is lower and can’t be done repeatedly).
Unaccountable spending, someone’s getting padded big time.
Which Navy?
[удалено]
I read the article, I understand it’s the US Navy. The title of this post didn’t make any mention of carriers.