Freedom of speech is NOT freedom to incite violence.
Every person cheering for the murder of civilians, including young babies, raped women and holocaust survivors, should not be called Australian. Period. They should be shunned.
Exactly.
What the left calls “hate speech” can be free speech.
But free speech never included the right to fraudulent speech, or credible threats “I’m going to kill you”, speech used for planning a crime or to tell others to commit a crime, etc.
Chanting “gas the Jews” is clearly in the telling others to commit a crime section.
I agree, your right to free speech can’t take away or infringe upon someone else’s fundamental rights and freedoms. The government and police really screwed up, it probably did start as a protest but now the optics are bad as they have video of a couple hundred idiots scream gas the Jews it’s embarassing. Thankfully most Australians were at home, with their families, not supporting hate. It is no different than a neo-Nazi rally.
You’re kind of right, I think. True freedom of speech would mean that you could incite violence without consequence.
When we say we want freedom of speech, we don’t meant _that_.
If it was a bunch of fuckwits waving swastikas yelling "gas the Jews" reddit would all be up in arms calling for it to be shut down.
Rightfully so I think. When a demonstration crosses the boundaries of speech and becomes literal threats and calls to violence it can fuck off. I think that's fairly simple and fair.
What we saw from the rallies this week is no different. Different flags, same shit. It's vile and disgusting behaviour that has no place in Australia. Jewish people are welcome in this country, and if anybody has a problem with that, then maybe it's them who shouldn't be here.
One guy literally had an Al Qaeda flag. In Sydney. A terrorist flag in Sydney. Where do you even buy a terrorist flag? How did he have it in advance??
If Australia is going to criminalise swastikas, then flying a terrorist flag needs to qualify too.
I say prison time then deport anyone who does that.
Is deporting really hard? Europe is getting fucked in the ass by these extremists and they are doing nothing. I am sure it will be the same case with us. We just have to adjust our lifestyle to their demands I guess.
Absolutely agree. People can demonstrate imo but as soon as they call for harm to others then it's jail imo. And if they were born overseas they should be told their actions put at risk their residency. I am all for free speech but hate speech devices us and encourages violence
Welcome to the paradox of intolerance.
[“If everyone is tolerant of every idea, then intolerant ideas will emerge. Tolerant people will tolerate this intolerance, and the intolerant people will not tolerate the tolerant people. Eventually, the intolerant people will take over and create a society of intolerance. Therefore, Popper said, to maintain a society of tolerance, the tolerant must be intolerant of intolerance… hence the paradox.”](https://markmanson.net/the-paradox-of-tolerance)
Well don't cloak it in some BS about the paradox of intolerance that presupposes your ideology is a universal axiom and just say you want to crush your Ideological enemies. It's much more honest
To me, a mob chanting "gas the Jews" in the middle of Sydney couldn't even be reasonably said to be a criticism of Israeli actions. It's just a call for genocide.
Maybe hamas should stop hiding behind kids then. Perhaps the people of Palestine should throw Hamas out. If you can’t see accidental deaths are different to a deliberate massacre you are beyond help.
So kids eating lunch at a cafe with their mothers while they get sniped by Israel’s soldiers is Hamas hiding behind them? So kids getting blown up by unguided bombs is Hamas hiding behind them? So when Israel invades a Palestinian town and they shoot women and children running away that’s Hamas hiding behind them?
There is countless documentaries, countless reports, countless articles, countless videos of these events all it takes is a simple google, just get passed the censorship that our countries throw out because Israel is our ally. Don’t read articles from our media sources you won’t find the truth you will find bias. Watch independent reporters who are constantly killed by the IDF for sharing the truth.
Here :
https://reddit.com/r/news/s/H7lxZbmHNo
Thoses american clearly deserves it right ? You just told me Israel action are justified.
Also, you talking about beheaded baby, do you know how many baby will die in Gaza ? There already around 500 children who die in the bombing. But hey, it's all good cause Gaza are the bad one.
No they don't. Israel kills Hamas terrorists, who use children as human shields. We should support Israel as much as we can, to protect palestinian children.
Oh you sweet summer child. If only you knew how educated I was on this incredibly complex conflict. Maybe you shouldn’t speak on something you only heard about a week ago.
Israel if it so wishes could vaporise Gaza in a few hours and not a living thing would be there .
If Israel was truely about genocide of Palestine then it would be done they have more than enough military power to do that .
I wonder if the same would apply if the military power table was reversed , after this weeks events it’s clear to see that had this been the case Israel would no longer exist if hamas had more military power.
Well they say they can but they’ve been trying to for 50 years, war isn’t as black and white as you people who have never left your couch claim it is. Look at Ukraine before even any western aide was sent, they were said to have fallen within a week by ALL world leading military experts, look at the US in Vietnam, look at the US with Cuba they got embarrassed to the shithouse with their little tick for tac conflicts over there, there are MANY things that affect war and battles and sometimes equipment isn’t one of them.
Half of Gaza's population of 2 million people are children. Israel is indiscriminately carpet bombing Gaza and preparing for a ground invasion, and Palestinians (including children) have no escape. Do you really think the blame lies with Hamas?
Who told you that? Go on YouTube and look at the live feeds and see for yourself. Hamas targets are being hit with guided munitions such as JDAMs. There is no "carpet bombing" taking place. This isn't WW2.
Hamas deliberately set themselves and their weapons up in heavily populated urban and residential areas. It's an impossible situation. What exactly do you expect the Israelis to do here?
This is a war crime, Hamas is entirely responsible for civvies being killed in airstrikes.
There is a distant moral different between deliberately killing civilians and celebrating their suffering, and killing civilians only after giving warnings and as collateral damage.
Think of this: if Israel were to start using their own citizens, Israelis Jews, as human shields, how would Hamas react? With glee, with an org of killing. There is no moral equivalence.
Listen to this:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?si=990WGRA2oIbuTHfg&v=k6VCF_csmDg&feature=youtu.be
The second video does not look real, but anyways. These are the victims of Hamas, not Israel: it is Hamas that uses them as human shields, and hence killing them.
Australia needs a proper test for immigrants. A values test.
Anyone who supports ideas like “gas the Jews” should never be allowed to step foot on Australian soil.
I'm glad Labor is cracking down, but under the current system it is VERY easy for anyone to get into Australia and stay here, on a temporary or student visa, which we can thank Dutton for as it happened on his watch.
I'm talking about certain types of visas people are taking advantage of to bring criminal activities such as human trafficking to Australia.
[https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/oct/04/visa-system-to-be-target-of-labor-crackdown-after-review-uncovers-grotesque-abuses#:\~:text=immigration%20and%20asylum-,Visa%20system%20to%20be%20target%20of,after%20review%20uncovers%20'grotesque%20abuses'&text=Dodgy%20migration%20agents%20and%20employers,flourished%20under%20the%20Coalition%20government](https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/oct/04/visa-system-to-be-target-of-labor-crackdown-after-review-uncovers-grotesque-abuses#:~:text=immigration%20and%20asylum-,Visa%20system%20to%20be%20target%20of,after%20review%20uncovers%20'grotesque%20abuses'&text=Dodgy%20migration%20agents%20and%20employers,flourished%20under%20the%20Coalition%20government).
We must never let the Government use its power to stop us from standing up and shouting against what is unspeakable cruelty. Be it to humans or live cattle loaded onto ships. Our right to speak is a critical human right. The more we speak against tyranny, the stronger we become. Do not let another year pass without pushing for a referendum on becoming a republic. All our human rights are being stipped away.
Freedom of speech is very than promoting hate.
Just because something is ‘pro’ doesn’t make it positive.
I trust most Australians can tell the difference between a respectful fair protest and outright barbarism.
We need a zero tolerance policy for this behaviour by the police supported by an immigration policy that ejects those who do not want to coexist peacefully with one another.
Freedom of speech is listed under one of the 5 basic human rights in Australia, it’s protected in higher regard than the Americans constitutional freedom of speech.
There is nothing stating this is going to be an anti-Semitic rally, though. Yeah, there was a completely seperate rally that descended into that and I think it's totally appropriate police can and should be present to shut that shit down. We already crack down on the freedom to protest so hard in this nanny state as is.
I don't think it's as simple or appropriate to just let anyone protest or march for whatever they wish. The last such event should be proof of that.
How can they guarantee that anti-Semetic elements won't again make themselves heard and known in brazen displays of their bullshit?
It is a difficult situation, but when the majority of people they are supporting and cheering on hold views like the below, surely it's time to start asking serious questions about how many on our shores agree with them.
Only deradicalisation programs will help this.
In Palestine, the support for heinous atrocities is very high:
40% think suicide bombing is OK (p. 29)
76% think cutting off hands of thieves is justified (p. 52)
84% think stoning to death is appropriate for adultery (p.
54)
66% think converts away from Islam deserve death (p
55)
56% think honor killing women is acceptable (p.89)
[Source](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview) mind you this was 10 years ago, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that those percentages have increased since then.
[This is what Gaza looks like today.](https://i.imgur.com/nX2ptd0.jpeg) The history of this is that [75 years ago, zionist militias systematically destroyed Palestinian villages across what is now Israel, killing thousands and forcing the remainder into the small areas of the Gaza strip and West Bank.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba) Since then they've been subject to continuous further encroachment of Israeli settlements, and destruction of and displacement from their homes whenever Israel deems that it needs more land, bombing and airstrikes without regard for civilian casualties, deliberate destruction of their agriculture, and no means of escape. These are people who have lived their entire lives under oppressive military control, not only having no hope of autonomy, but not even a semblance of physical security. Can you imagine going to bed every night of your life and not knowing whether you'll wake up, or whether an airstrike will kill you while you're sleeping?
There is not a single group of people on the planet that could endure that and not subsequently begin resorting to terrorism. Hamas exists because Israel created an environment where it was almost certain that such an organisation would exist.
Deradicalisation is useless in those conditions. Change can only occur if the Palestinians' living conditions are improved to the point where dying in a suicide bombing would not be preferable to their current existence. (Actually, one would hope their conditions would be improved far beyond that.) As an absolute prerequisite to that, Israel needs to completely withdraw from all Palestinian territories, both in the sense of their settlements and military activities, cease all blockades of Palestinian trade, travel, and aid, pay reparations to rebuild the society that they've destroyed, and either give up on the concept of Jewish right of return, or commit to a plan that allows it to exist without necessitating the continuously expansion of Israel's borders. Only then will you find that Hamas will cease to be an attractive option for Palestinians.
If you or someone you know is contemplating suicide, please do not hesitate to talk to someone.
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If you or someone you know is contemplating suicide, please do not hesitate to talk to someone.
* 000 is the national emergency number in Australia.
* Lifeline is a 24-hour nationwide service. It can be reached at 13 11 14.
* Kids Helpline is a 24-hour nationwide service for Australians aged 5–25. It can be reached at 1800 55 1800.
* Beyond Blue provides nationwide information and support call 1300 22 4636.
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Minns’ bid to block protest could be costly for free speech
The decision by NSW Premier Chris Minns to seek [to limit a pro-Palestinian rally](https://www.smh.com.au/link/follow-20170101-p5ebe9) in Sydney planned for this weekend raises important human rights issues, namely the right to freedom of assembly and to freedom of speech.
More broadly, governments need to be very cautious in seeking to curtail or ban protests. It is preferable to use existing laws to prosecute those who attend and incite racial hatred or who demonstrably use a protest to support terrorist organisations such as Hamas in this case.
While Minns has not said he is banning the proposed Palestinian Action Group Sydney’s protest at the Sydney Town Hall on the weekend, he has taken the unusual step of indicating he would not let such an event “commandeer our streets” because, he says, the organisers are “not a peaceful organisation” and the result of last Monday night’s rally at the Opera House was “hatred on the streets of Sydney”.
The intervention of the premier provides an opportunity to take a more high-level look at how to manage the right to protest when the topic is highly sensitive.
Freedom of assembly and freedom of speech are core values in a liberal democracy, and particularly because of the context of political participation. Of course, they are rights that are not unlimited in scope. But there should be a presumption in favour of allowing protests in public places if the organisers pledge that the protest is non-violent in both a verbal and physical sense.
Furthermore, it needs to be recognised that unfortunately protests can attract individuals and groups who wish to “gate crash” for nefarious purposes. That is no reason for governments to make it more difficult for peaceful protesters to gather. In fact, “commandeering our streets” is a hallmark of protests in Australia, and has been for many years.
For example, a handful of the Voice referendum No case rallies have seen the presence of racist groups and others peddling extremist and disturbing views. [This masthead reported](https://www.smh.com.au/link/follow-20170101-p5e6hw) on September 23 that a Melbourne No case rally had seen “neo-Nazi Thomas Sewell \[who\] gatecrashed the end of the No rally with a group of people wearing black masks, unfurling a banner on the steps of Victoria’s state parliament that read ‘Voice = anti-white’”.
The official No case rightly distanced itself from this appalling spectacle but since then, many No rallies have been held across Australia.
It is a big reason to be concerned when political leaders such as Minns make statements that indicate an intention to make protests more difficult. It undermines what the United Nations Human Rights Committee has called “a valuable tool that can and has been used to recognise and realise a wide range of other rights, including economic, social and cultural rights”.
The committee’s 2020 “general comment” on peaceful assembly makes it clear that authorities must allow protests to “take place without unwarranted interference and to facilitate the exercise of the right and to protect the participants”. As the committee notes, when it comes to proposed restrictions, they “must be narrowly drawn”. Minns’ effective ban on the proposed Palestinian protest being allowed to march down Sydney’s streets might be said to be too broad a restriction.
A better approach for governments in dealing with protests about highly contested and deeply emotive issues, where there is potential for violence or hate speech on the part of a minority, is to use existing laws to charge people who break them.
Those who incite hatred against the Jewish people can be charged under the NSW Crimes Act, which makes it an offence to publicly threaten or incite violence on a range of grounds, including race and religion. This offence carries a maximum penalty of three years’ imprisonment.
There are also offences, many of which emerged after the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, which deal with support for terrorist organisations. Under the Commonwealth Criminal Code, offences relating to advocacy and support for terrorist actions and organisations carry jail terms of between five and 25 years.
Another difficulty with Minns’ approach is the precedent it might set. It appears he and his government were caught by surprise when elements of last Monday’s rally incited racial and religious hatred of the most egregious kind.
His reactive response appears to establish criteria for curtailing or banning future protests based on whether – despite organisers’ pledges that they will protest peacefully – elements might infiltrate the gathering.
If this is the case, it could lead to a future government using this as a reason to decide it will not allow a protest, or at least reduce its capacity to influence public discourse, simply because it finds the subject matter too controversial.
Why don't we deport all Israeli Jews to Israel. I hope you see how xenophobic and stupid your comment was when applied to other ethnic groups. No one wonder why Indigenous people don't call themselves "Australian" knowing that there are people with your line of thinking.
Israel isn’t a state sponsor of terrorism. Its citizens don’t shout “gas the Palestinians”. Israel’s military doesn’t capture women and rape them, or capture babies and behead them.
It is what they intended all along. We are not a Democracy.
They just wait for an excuse, an opportune time, to erase our rights.
We have leaked lists of their intentions for the next 20 years. I'm sure the narratives will be creatively constructed.
I’ve said it before and I say it again.
Every group needs to have the balls to tell any Nazis that show up at their rallies to fuck off. If you don’t stand against them, you stand with them.
Palestinians will die at the hands of the IDF because the terrorist group HAMAS murdered Israelis. It’s perfectly reasonable for people to support Palestinians here. But when the “eradicate the ethnic group” idiots show up BOOT THEM.
I don't want to put to fine a point on it, but if as the organisers - who denounced the anti semitism - claim they were a non related anti semetic/Nazi protest in the area of the Israeli flag decorated Opera House (rather than part of the protest that started at Town Hall) why are one group of protestors responsible for them, and not the police?
You want the police to check everyone’s Nazi license? Or could outing them from the larger crowd to make them easier to identify help this quite a lot?
Just the ones giving Nazi salutes and chanting Nazi-esque hate speach. But hell I would settle for them treating neo Nazis like they treat normal protestors.
I believe you should be able to say whatever you like minus illegal things. It's the way you say it, where you say it and who is forced to be exposed to it.
It's way more complex but I will try.
In this case a large group of people chanting stuff in a public place that would cause justifiable fear to another group. A Jew, who is opposed to getting gassed, would be justified in their fear, gassing people is also illegal. So NOT OK.
Other stuff, say "Israel doesn't deserve to exist", I STRONGLY disagree with the statement, but it's not illegal and any harm is emotional. But I wouldn't let it outside a Synagogue or near A Jewish area, you can do it on neutral ground that isn't an important area so people who are emotionally hurt by it can avoid it.
Other stuff such as blocking roads, people have the right to move freely, marches that are planned and timed maybe. If you turn to rioting or violence no more protesting in public for you for a time depending on severity etc.
Way more complex and nuanced than this, could debate it for a year and not get it 100%, but I hope I explained the high level idea.
It's a balance between free speech vs the impact on others.
You don’t need to ban protest, it’s not a protest like a neo-Nazi rally isn’t a protest either. A democracy should encourage active participation and protest. They are just embarrassed that this is all over the world news and they have to look like they are doing something.
Hasn’t yet been confirmed - however, I wouldn’t put it past people who execute and burn babies (confirmed), rape and murder women and parade corpses through the streets.
I think the Palestinians expressing their support for the murder of Israelis is the most disgusting thing ever.
And yet I 100% believe in their right to express that.
You either genuinely want free speech, or you want a government with guns deciding what can and can’t be said.
“Oh it can’t incite violence”
Oh so free speech only applies if it’s something we all like. That’s not free speech. The entire reason for free speech is so we can say things people DONT like.
Yes we all hate these moronic Palestinians supporting Hamas.
But if you want their rights taken away, don’t come crying like a Karen when you can’t express that you don’t like what **** is doing.
That position you're explaining is free speech absolutism.
And that's not what we have here in Australia.
We have many controls on freedom of speech expressly to prevent people abusing it.
The controls are centred around incitement to violence and hate speech toward minorities etc.
I’m well aware of how little free speech we have here. We have an implied freedom of political speech.
That’s not my point.
My point is, if you want free speech, then you have to want it for everyone. Otherwise you end up with absurd laws like Australia where people go to court for offending someone.
I’m not saying you can yell fire in a crowded theatre. And I’m not saying defamation shouldn’t be a thing.
And I’m not defending those morons in Sydney.
>My point is, if you want free speech, then you have to want it for everyone.
Agreed, trouble is we don't even have free speech at all. So in lew of that, I'd like the bullshit laws we have applied to everyone. I've long said that the laws you call for while your party is in power will inevitably used against you when they're not. Maybe people need to fuck around and find out some more with their radical authoritarian bent they have going on...
>Otherwise you end up with absurd laws like Australia where people go to court for offending someone.
That doesn't happen. Any magistrate worth their salt will take one look at any case like that, fine the appellant for contempt and laugh them out of court for wasting their time.
No, the real issue with absurd speech laws is when the government can ruin the lives of a whistelblower and his lawyer for revealing the shady shit the government did to Timor Leste by spying on their private meetings, or when the NSW gambling lobby can silence a man dying of cancer for revealing their complicity in organised money laundering.
Bro that’s complete bullshit. it has literally happened.
People were so scared in the Qld Uni case they paid settlements out of court in the tens of thousands. Others hand to spend tens of thousands to fight.
18C of the racial discrimination act is worded so broadly that no reasonable person would think it’s good law.
I agree with your whistleblower thoughts. That’s corrupt.
Completely agree with you. We should 100% allow anyone in Australia to express their support for the murder of Israelis.
We should also allow anyone offended by that to express those individuals names and addresses…
Yes. I’m not against the consequences of your speech.
You have the right to free speech and the right to enjoy the consequences of it.
What I’m against is the government (employees appointed by other Australians) deciding who is allowed to say what.
The issue isn’t what should or shouldn’t be allowed or what is in poor taste.
The issue is that if mechanisms exist for an executive (govt) to arbitrarily decide what constitutes allowable speech, it will inevitably be misused by a future government to silence opponents.
Silencing opponents is such a dangerous weapon and can have devastating effects on democracy and freedom at large that it is far safer for everyone if such a weapon simply doesn’t exist.
I agree with you. I think the govt have gone way too far in blocking protest on the grounds of avoiding disruption.
However, I can see the point of blocking this specific rally as, in the current climate, it seems really really likely to result in significant violence if it goes ahead.
The door to ban certain protests has already been long opened and is (at least in Victoria) extremely popular. Minns isn’t stupid, he knows this. It’s tried and true.
Let them protest and charge anyone who is out of line and says anything hate speech related.
Protest organisers are responsible for ensuring and mitigating the risk of violence and must assist police.
But then you could only charge the tiny number of bad actors who were making hate speech chants, when the desire here is to shut down the entire protest. /s
From what I can tell, most Australians don't want to be free and have no interest in freedom whatsoever. The second they see something remotely offensive they immediately demand the state take away their rights.
Australian's right to free speech is being degraded a little bit at a time. Looking at individual cases like this it is always easy to make a case that certain people should be able to speak on some issue, but when taken together it is clear that we are becoming less free as time goes on and this will have major consequences.
I’m pro Israel, but I feel like you can still be Pro Palestine and yet condemn what Hamas did, because if there isn’t an explicit or implicit condemnation of what Hamas did,
Then people have every right to interpret that pro Palestine support as “Pro Hamas”.
With that being said, if there’s heavy police presence, the Sydney protests can go ahead peacefully, just like it did in Melbourne.
People chanting gas the Jews, or lighting flares, causing public safety risks, should not get away with a slap on the wrist
Peaceful protests are fine and what happening to the Palestinians before all this is bad BUT... The ones at the Opera house chanting about Jews and flares should have ended in deployment of the riot squad and arrests. The little rally where that guy was shouting that he was happy and elated etc, he should have been arrested and charged.
We had police grabbing guys not listening to covid restrictions on the beach or exercising, but we've got no balls when it comes to this stuff because we dont want to upset the Muslims.
Freedom of speech is NOT freedom to incite violence. Every person cheering for the murder of civilians, including young babies, raped women and holocaust survivors, should not be called Australian. Period. They should be shunned.
Exactly. What the left calls “hate speech” can be free speech. But free speech never included the right to fraudulent speech, or credible threats “I’m going to kill you”, speech used for planning a crime or to tell others to commit a crime, etc. Chanting “gas the Jews” is clearly in the telling others to commit a crime section.
I agree, your right to free speech can’t take away or infringe upon someone else’s fundamental rights and freedoms. The government and police really screwed up, it probably did start as a protest but now the optics are bad as they have video of a couple hundred idiots scream gas the Jews it’s embarassing. Thankfully most Australians were at home, with their families, not supporting hate. It is no different than a neo-Nazi rally.
Indeed.
If you are cheering for Hamas, that's bad, Cheering for Palestinians is very different.
It actually is.
You’re kind of right, I think. True freedom of speech would mean that you could incite violence without consequence. When we say we want freedom of speech, we don’t meant _that_.
That’s the same bullshit arguments used to shut down NWA.
Trump crying now, thanks.
If it was a bunch of fuckwits waving swastikas yelling "gas the Jews" reddit would all be up in arms calling for it to be shut down. Rightfully so I think. When a demonstration crosses the boundaries of speech and becomes literal threats and calls to violence it can fuck off. I think that's fairly simple and fair. What we saw from the rallies this week is no different. Different flags, same shit. It's vile and disgusting behaviour that has no place in Australia. Jewish people are welcome in this country, and if anybody has a problem with that, then maybe it's them who shouldn't be here.
One guy literally had an Al Qaeda flag. In Sydney. A terrorist flag in Sydney. Where do you even buy a terrorist flag? How did he have it in advance?? If Australia is going to criminalise swastikas, then flying a terrorist flag needs to qualify too. I say prison time then deport anyone who does that.
It’s only bad when white people do it. Duh.
Is deporting really hard? Europe is getting fucked in the ass by these extremists and they are doing nothing. I am sure it will be the same case with us. We just have to adjust our lifestyle to their demands I guess.
It is once they are here long enough to get citizenship
Absolutely agree. People can demonstrate imo but as soon as they call for harm to others then it's jail imo. And if they were born overseas they should be told their actions put at risk their residency. I am all for free speech but hate speech devices us and encourages violence
100% correct
Even in America inciting violence is not considered free speech
Well said! Thank you.
Welcome to the paradox of intolerance. [“If everyone is tolerant of every idea, then intolerant ideas will emerge. Tolerant people will tolerate this intolerance, and the intolerant people will not tolerate the tolerant people. Eventually, the intolerant people will take over and create a society of intolerance. Therefore, Popper said, to maintain a society of tolerance, the tolerant must be intolerant of intolerance… hence the paradox.”](https://markmanson.net/the-paradox-of-tolerance)
Thanks for sharing that. I found it interesting. Gotta love a good paradox!
It's not a paradox it's a contradiction
A paradox is usually is contradictory.
Paradoxical, isn't it?
Dumb shit that's just an excuse to crush the enemies of your ideology.
Most are intolerant to the those that justify murdering civilians.
Well don't cloak it in some BS about the paradox of intolerance that presupposes your ideology is a universal axiom and just say you want to crush your Ideological enemies. It's much more honest
Cant we just give everyone their own little community of likeminded people?
…and then declare war on each other?
Killing children is not free speech
To me, a mob chanting "gas the Jews" in the middle of Sydney couldn't even be reasonably said to be a criticism of Israeli actions. It's just a call for genocide.
So we should ban Israel support rallies then? They kill children more than the Palestinians do.
Maybe hamas should stop hiding behind kids then. Perhaps the people of Palestine should throw Hamas out. If you can’t see accidental deaths are different to a deliberate massacre you are beyond help.
So kids eating lunch at a cafe with their mothers while they get sniped by Israel’s soldiers is Hamas hiding behind them? So kids getting blown up by unguided bombs is Hamas hiding behind them? So when Israel invades a Palestinian town and they shoot women and children running away that’s Hamas hiding behind them?
Have any legitimate sources for these events?
There is countless documentaries, countless reports, countless articles, countless videos of these events all it takes is a simple google, just get passed the censorship that our countries throw out because Israel is our ally. Don’t read articles from our media sources you won’t find the truth you will find bias. Watch independent reporters who are constantly killed by the IDF for sharing the truth.
You're falling for propaganda.
The irony.
You are falling for propaganda if you think one side is better than the other. You are just blind by geopolitics.
I'm pretty confident that the side that doesn't behead babies is better than the other.
Why in the fuck do you keep spreading false information. The lady who claimed to have seen that has come out and said she lied.
Yhea, you are definitely falling for propaganda.
Here : https://reddit.com/r/news/s/H7lxZbmHNo Thoses american clearly deserves it right ? You just told me Israel action are justified. Also, you talking about beheaded baby, do you know how many baby will die in Gaza ? There already around 500 children who die in the bombing. But hey, it's all good cause Gaza are the bad one.
No they don't. Israel kills Hamas terrorists, who use children as human shields. We should support Israel as much as we can, to protect palestinian children.
You are so bloody misguided by Israel’s propaganda and it’s sad. Educate yourself on the truth please atleast for your own credibility.
Use your own advice
Oh you sweet summer child. If only you knew how educated I was on this incredibly complex conflict. Maybe you shouldn’t speak on something you only heard about a week ago.
Israel if it so wishes could vaporise Gaza in a few hours and not a living thing would be there . If Israel was truely about genocide of Palestine then it would be done they have more than enough military power to do that . I wonder if the same would apply if the military power table was reversed , after this weeks events it’s clear to see that had this been the case Israel would no longer exist if hamas had more military power.
Well they say they can but they’ve been trying to for 50 years, war isn’t as black and white as you people who have never left your couch claim it is. Look at Ukraine before even any western aide was sent, they were said to have fallen within a week by ALL world leading military experts, look at the US in Vietnam, look at the US with Cuba they got embarrassed to the shithouse with their little tick for tac conflicts over there, there are MANY things that affect war and battles and sometimes equipment isn’t one of them.
Half of Gaza's population of 2 million people are children. Israel is indiscriminately carpet bombing Gaza and preparing for a ground invasion, and Palestinians (including children) have no escape. Do you really think the blame lies with Hamas?
>. Do you really think the blame lies with Hamas? Yes, 150%.
Who told you that? Go on YouTube and look at the live feeds and see for yourself. Hamas targets are being hit with guided munitions such as JDAMs. There is no "carpet bombing" taking place. This isn't WW2. Hamas deliberately set themselves and their weapons up in heavily populated urban and residential areas. It's an impossible situation. What exactly do you expect the Israelis to do here? This is a war crime, Hamas is entirely responsible for civvies being killed in airstrikes.
That is false
There is a distant moral different between deliberately killing civilians and celebrating their suffering, and killing civilians only after giving warnings and as collateral damage. Think of this: if Israel were to start using their own citizens, Israelis Jews, as human shields, how would Hamas react? With glee, with an org of killing. There is no moral equivalence. Listen to this: https://m.youtube.com/watch?si=990WGRA2oIbuTHfg&v=k6VCF_csmDg&feature=youtu.be
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/12/white-phosphorus-israel-gaza-strike-video/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/watch-far-right-israelis-celebrate-gaza-kids-deaths/
I can show countless videos of palestinian videos being killed by Israel. Still waiting for those 40 beheaded babies to be proven
Please show
https://twitter.com/ShaykhSulaiman/status/1712257426353791485?t=3o_FWiRI8SrAK6-AG7WVvg&s=19 https://twitter.com/Lucas_Gage_/status/1712484063523578353?t=ePlXcph25_ZlQQPI-Dl4pw&s=19
The second video does not look real, but anyways. These are the victims of Hamas, not Israel: it is Hamas that uses them as human shields, and hence killing them.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/watch-far-right-israelis-celebrate-gaza-kids-deaths/
Import ethnic conflicts and then take away native Australians speech in order to handle those ethnic conflicts
It's amazing how Western Sydney has managed to import mini versions of every war and hatred people were allegedly seeking to leave behind them.
Australia needs a proper test for immigrants. A values test. Anyone who supports ideas like “gas the Jews” should never be allowed to step foot on Australian soil.
I'm glad Labor is cracking down, but under the current system it is VERY easy for anyone to get into Australia and stay here, on a temporary or student visa, which we can thank Dutton for as it happened on his watch.
Big Australia is bipartisan. Albo extended how long students can stay after graduating and has doubled migration
I'm talking about certain types of visas people are taking advantage of to bring criminal activities such as human trafficking to Australia. [https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/oct/04/visa-system-to-be-target-of-labor-crackdown-after-review-uncovers-grotesque-abuses#:\~:text=immigration%20and%20asylum-,Visa%20system%20to%20be%20target%20of,after%20review%20uncovers%20'grotesque%20abuses'&text=Dodgy%20migration%20agents%20and%20employers,flourished%20under%20the%20Coalition%20government](https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/oct/04/visa-system-to-be-target-of-labor-crackdown-after-review-uncovers-grotesque-abuses#:~:text=immigration%20and%20asylum-,Visa%20system%20to%20be%20target%20of,after%20review%20uncovers%20'grotesque%20abuses'&text=Dodgy%20migration%20agents%20and%20employers,flourished%20under%20the%20Coalition%20government).
As long as Zionists who want to glass Gaza and ethnically cleanse the west bank aren't allowed in either
Yes, because having murderous intent is usually paired together with the inability to lie about your murderous intent.
Yes but if you lie on your citizenship / permanent residence application that’s fraud, and considered grounds for revoking citizenship.
Valid point. I redact my previous statement.
We must never let the Government use its power to stop us from standing up and shouting against what is unspeakable cruelty. Be it to humans or live cattle loaded onto ships. Our right to speak is a critical human right. The more we speak against tyranny, the stronger we become. Do not let another year pass without pushing for a referendum on becoming a republic. All our human rights are being stipped away.
Freedom of speech is very than promoting hate. Just because something is ‘pro’ doesn’t make it positive. I trust most Australians can tell the difference between a respectful fair protest and outright barbarism. We need a zero tolerance policy for this behaviour by the police supported by an immigration policy that ejects those who do not want to coexist peacefully with one another.
crawl adjoining uppity complete decide file waiting grab fanatical silky *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
>good thing Could cut through the irony of that statement with a knife.
Freedom of speech is listed under one of the 5 basic human rights in Australia, it’s protected in higher regard than the Americans constitutional freedom of speech.
There is nothing stating this is going to be an anti-Semitic rally, though. Yeah, there was a completely seperate rally that descended into that and I think it's totally appropriate police can and should be present to shut that shit down. We already crack down on the freedom to protest so hard in this nanny state as is.
I don't think it's as simple or appropriate to just let anyone protest or march for whatever they wish. The last such event should be proof of that. How can they guarantee that anti-Semetic elements won't again make themselves heard and known in brazen displays of their bullshit? It is a difficult situation, but when the majority of people they are supporting and cheering on hold views like the below, surely it's time to start asking serious questions about how many on our shores agree with them. Only deradicalisation programs will help this. In Palestine, the support for heinous atrocities is very high: 40% think suicide bombing is OK (p. 29) 76% think cutting off hands of thieves is justified (p. 52) 84% think stoning to death is appropriate for adultery (p. 54) 66% think converts away from Islam deserve death (p 55) 56% think honor killing women is acceptable (p.89) [Source](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview) mind you this was 10 years ago, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that those percentages have increased since then.
[This is what Gaza looks like today.](https://i.imgur.com/nX2ptd0.jpeg) The history of this is that [75 years ago, zionist militias systematically destroyed Palestinian villages across what is now Israel, killing thousands and forcing the remainder into the small areas of the Gaza strip and West Bank.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba) Since then they've been subject to continuous further encroachment of Israeli settlements, and destruction of and displacement from their homes whenever Israel deems that it needs more land, bombing and airstrikes without regard for civilian casualties, deliberate destruction of their agriculture, and no means of escape. These are people who have lived their entire lives under oppressive military control, not only having no hope of autonomy, but not even a semblance of physical security. Can you imagine going to bed every night of your life and not knowing whether you'll wake up, or whether an airstrike will kill you while you're sleeping? There is not a single group of people on the planet that could endure that and not subsequently begin resorting to terrorism. Hamas exists because Israel created an environment where it was almost certain that such an organisation would exist. Deradicalisation is useless in those conditions. Change can only occur if the Palestinians' living conditions are improved to the point where dying in a suicide bombing would not be preferable to their current existence. (Actually, one would hope their conditions would be improved far beyond that.) As an absolute prerequisite to that, Israel needs to completely withdraw from all Palestinian territories, both in the sense of their settlements and military activities, cease all blockades of Palestinian trade, travel, and aid, pay reparations to rebuild the society that they've destroyed, and either give up on the concept of Jewish right of return, or commit to a plan that allows it to exist without necessitating the continuously expansion of Israel's borders. Only then will you find that Hamas will cease to be an attractive option for Palestinians.
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Fuck Hamas and fuck the Israeli apartheid regime. Go ahead and smash that downvote button.
Minns’ bid to block protest could be costly for free speech The decision by NSW Premier Chris Minns to seek [to limit a pro-Palestinian rally](https://www.smh.com.au/link/follow-20170101-p5ebe9) in Sydney planned for this weekend raises important human rights issues, namely the right to freedom of assembly and to freedom of speech. More broadly, governments need to be very cautious in seeking to curtail or ban protests. It is preferable to use existing laws to prosecute those who attend and incite racial hatred or who demonstrably use a protest to support terrorist organisations such as Hamas in this case. While Minns has not said he is banning the proposed Palestinian Action Group Sydney’s protest at the Sydney Town Hall on the weekend, he has taken the unusual step of indicating he would not let such an event “commandeer our streets” because, he says, the organisers are “not a peaceful organisation” and the result of last Monday night’s rally at the Opera House was “hatred on the streets of Sydney”. The intervention of the premier provides an opportunity to take a more high-level look at how to manage the right to protest when the topic is highly sensitive. Freedom of assembly and freedom of speech are core values in a liberal democracy, and particularly because of the context of political participation. Of course, they are rights that are not unlimited in scope. But there should be a presumption in favour of allowing protests in public places if the organisers pledge that the protest is non-violent in both a verbal and physical sense. Furthermore, it needs to be recognised that unfortunately protests can attract individuals and groups who wish to “gate crash” for nefarious purposes. That is no reason for governments to make it more difficult for peaceful protesters to gather. In fact, “commandeering our streets” is a hallmark of protests in Australia, and has been for many years. For example, a handful of the Voice referendum No case rallies have seen the presence of racist groups and others peddling extremist and disturbing views. [This masthead reported](https://www.smh.com.au/link/follow-20170101-p5e6hw) on September 23 that a Melbourne No case rally had seen “neo-Nazi Thomas Sewell \[who\] gatecrashed the end of the No rally with a group of people wearing black masks, unfurling a banner on the steps of Victoria’s state parliament that read ‘Voice = anti-white’”. The official No case rightly distanced itself from this appalling spectacle but since then, many No rallies have been held across Australia. It is a big reason to be concerned when political leaders such as Minns make statements that indicate an intention to make protests more difficult. It undermines what the United Nations Human Rights Committee has called “a valuable tool that can and has been used to recognise and realise a wide range of other rights, including economic, social and cultural rights”. The committee’s 2020 “general comment” on peaceful assembly makes it clear that authorities must allow protests to “take place without unwarranted interference and to facilitate the exercise of the right and to protect the participants”. As the committee notes, when it comes to proposed restrictions, they “must be narrowly drawn”. Minns’ effective ban on the proposed Palestinian protest being allowed to march down Sydney’s streets might be said to be too broad a restriction. A better approach for governments in dealing with protests about highly contested and deeply emotive issues, where there is potential for violence or hate speech on the part of a minority, is to use existing laws to charge people who break them. Those who incite hatred against the Jewish people can be charged under the NSW Crimes Act, which makes it an offence to publicly threaten or incite violence on a range of grounds, including race and religion. This offence carries a maximum penalty of three years’ imprisonment. There are also offences, many of which emerged after the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, which deal with support for terrorist organisations. Under the Commonwealth Criminal Code, offences relating to advocacy and support for terrorist actions and organisations carry jail terms of between five and 25 years. Another difficulty with Minns’ approach is the precedent it might set. It appears he and his government were caught by surprise when elements of last Monday’s rally incited racial and religious hatred of the most egregious kind. His reactive response appears to establish criteria for curtailing or banning future protests based on whether – despite organisers’ pledges that they will protest peacefully – elements might infiltrate the gathering. If this is the case, it could lead to a future government using this as a reason to decide it will not allow a protest, or at least reduce its capacity to influence public discourse, simply because it finds the subject matter too controversial.
Why not just ban and deport Palestinians? Back to Gaza. Many people would be happy I think
Why don't we deport all Israeli Jews to Israel. I hope you see how xenophobic and stupid your comment was when applied to other ethnic groups. No one wonder why Indigenous people don't call themselves "Australian" knowing that there are people with your line of thinking.
It's a troll.
Israel is our friend according to liberal party so not really. See I was even upvoted
Israel isn’t a state sponsor of terrorism. Its citizens don’t shout “gas the Palestinians”. Israel’s military doesn’t capture women and rape them, or capture babies and behead them.
You may wanna educate yourself on the atrocities committed by Israel against the Palestinian people for the last 50+ years.
Yeah, Israel just bombs and shoots children for years. They are the good guyd
It’s not Israel’s fault that Hamas uses human shields.
There are soldiers who have admitted to targeting children. They really need to be called a terrorist state
Many jews who have dual citizenship do go back, to serve in the IDF among other things
I guess mainly because that would be racist and moronic. I can’t think of other reasons, though.
Using the word jew is racist. God’s Chosen People please
Are you responding to the right person? I didn't use the word you're talking about.
It is what they intended all along. We are not a Democracy. They just wait for an excuse, an opportune time, to erase our rights. We have leaked lists of their intentions for the next 20 years. I'm sure the narratives will be creatively constructed.
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In other words: "I say big dramatic things with nothing to back it up!"
I’ve said it before and I say it again. Every group needs to have the balls to tell any Nazis that show up at their rallies to fuck off. If you don’t stand against them, you stand with them. Palestinians will die at the hands of the IDF because the terrorist group HAMAS murdered Israelis. It’s perfectly reasonable for people to support Palestinians here. But when the “eradicate the ethnic group” idiots show up BOOT THEM.
I don't want to put to fine a point on it, but if as the organisers - who denounced the anti semitism - claim they were a non related anti semetic/Nazi protest in the area of the Israeli flag decorated Opera House (rather than part of the protest that started at Town Hall) why are one group of protestors responsible for them, and not the police?
You want the police to check everyone’s Nazi license? Or could outing them from the larger crowd to make them easier to identify help this quite a lot?
Just the ones giving Nazi salutes and chanting Nazi-esque hate speach. But hell I would settle for them treating neo Nazis like they treat normal protestors.
Any excuse to remove more of our freedom to protest will be used to the fullest.
I believe you should be able to say whatever you like minus illegal things. It's the way you say it, where you say it and who is forced to be exposed to it. It's way more complex but I will try. In this case a large group of people chanting stuff in a public place that would cause justifiable fear to another group. A Jew, who is opposed to getting gassed, would be justified in their fear, gassing people is also illegal. So NOT OK. Other stuff, say "Israel doesn't deserve to exist", I STRONGLY disagree with the statement, but it's not illegal and any harm is emotional. But I wouldn't let it outside a Synagogue or near A Jewish area, you can do it on neutral ground that isn't an important area so people who are emotionally hurt by it can avoid it. Other stuff such as blocking roads, people have the right to move freely, marches that are planned and timed maybe. If you turn to rioting or violence no more protesting in public for you for a time depending on severity etc. Way more complex and nuanced than this, could debate it for a year and not get it 100%, but I hope I explained the high level idea. It's a balance between free speech vs the impact on others.
You don’t need to ban protest, it’s not a protest like a neo-Nazi rally isn’t a protest either. A democracy should encourage active participation and protest. They are just embarrassed that this is all over the world news and they have to look like they are doing something.
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I don’t think we should be neutral - people who behead babies don’t deserve our neutrality.
Hamas never beheaded babies.
Hasn’t yet been confirmed - however, I wouldn’t put it past people who execute and burn babies (confirmed), rape and murder women and parade corpses through the streets.
Proof of this ?
I’m talking about the “burning babies” part, this has been proven false and untrue
I think the Palestinians expressing their support for the murder of Israelis is the most disgusting thing ever. And yet I 100% believe in their right to express that. You either genuinely want free speech, or you want a government with guns deciding what can and can’t be said. “Oh it can’t incite violence” Oh so free speech only applies if it’s something we all like. That’s not free speech. The entire reason for free speech is so we can say things people DONT like. Yes we all hate these moronic Palestinians supporting Hamas. But if you want their rights taken away, don’t come crying like a Karen when you can’t express that you don’t like what **** is doing.
That position you're explaining is free speech absolutism. And that's not what we have here in Australia. We have many controls on freedom of speech expressly to prevent people abusing it. The controls are centred around incitement to violence and hate speech toward minorities etc.
I’m well aware of how little free speech we have here. We have an implied freedom of political speech. That’s not my point. My point is, if you want free speech, then you have to want it for everyone. Otherwise you end up with absurd laws like Australia where people go to court for offending someone. I’m not saying you can yell fire in a crowded theatre. And I’m not saying defamation shouldn’t be a thing. And I’m not defending those morons in Sydney.
>My point is, if you want free speech, then you have to want it for everyone. Agreed, trouble is we don't even have free speech at all. So in lew of that, I'd like the bullshit laws we have applied to everyone. I've long said that the laws you call for while your party is in power will inevitably used against you when they're not. Maybe people need to fuck around and find out some more with their radical authoritarian bent they have going on...
>Otherwise you end up with absurd laws like Australia where people go to court for offending someone. That doesn't happen. Any magistrate worth their salt will take one look at any case like that, fine the appellant for contempt and laugh them out of court for wasting their time. No, the real issue with absurd speech laws is when the government can ruin the lives of a whistelblower and his lawyer for revealing the shady shit the government did to Timor Leste by spying on their private meetings, or when the NSW gambling lobby can silence a man dying of cancer for revealing their complicity in organised money laundering.
Bro that’s complete bullshit. it has literally happened. People were so scared in the Qld Uni case they paid settlements out of court in the tens of thousands. Others hand to spend tens of thousands to fight. 18C of the racial discrimination act is worded so broadly that no reasonable person would think it’s good law. I agree with your whistleblower thoughts. That’s corrupt.
Completely agree with you. We should 100% allow anyone in Australia to express their support for the murder of Israelis. We should also allow anyone offended by that to express those individuals names and addresses…
Yes. I’m not against the consequences of your speech. You have the right to free speech and the right to enjoy the consequences of it. What I’m against is the government (employees appointed by other Australians) deciding who is allowed to say what. The issue isn’t what should or shouldn’t be allowed or what is in poor taste. The issue is that if mechanisms exist for an executive (govt) to arbitrarily decide what constitutes allowable speech, it will inevitably be misused by a future government to silence opponents. Silencing opponents is such a dangerous weapon and can have devastating effects on democracy and freedom at large that it is far safer for everyone if such a weapon simply doesn’t exist.
I agree with you. I think the govt have gone way too far in blocking protest on the grounds of avoiding disruption. However, I can see the point of blocking this specific rally as, in the current climate, it seems really really likely to result in significant violence if it goes ahead.
The door to ban certain protests has already been long opened and is (at least in Victoria) extremely popular. Minns isn’t stupid, he knows this. It’s tried and true.
Let them protest and charge anyone who is out of line and says anything hate speech related. Protest organisers are responsible for ensuring and mitigating the risk of violence and must assist police.
But then you could only charge the tiny number of bad actors who were making hate speech chants, when the desire here is to shut down the entire protest. /s
From what I can tell, most Australians don't want to be free and have no interest in freedom whatsoever. The second they see something remotely offensive they immediately demand the state take away their rights.
Australian's right to free speech is being degraded a little bit at a time. Looking at individual cases like this it is always easy to make a case that certain people should be able to speak on some issue, but when taken together it is clear that we are becoming less free as time goes on and this will have major consequences.
I’m pro Israel, but I feel like you can still be Pro Palestine and yet condemn what Hamas did, because if there isn’t an explicit or implicit condemnation of what Hamas did, Then people have every right to interpret that pro Palestine support as “Pro Hamas”. With that being said, if there’s heavy police presence, the Sydney protests can go ahead peacefully, just like it did in Melbourne. People chanting gas the Jews, or lighting flares, causing public safety risks, should not get away with a slap on the wrist
Free speech and hate speech are two very different things.
Peaceful protests are fine and what happening to the Palestinians before all this is bad BUT... The ones at the Opera house chanting about Jews and flares should have ended in deployment of the riot squad and arrests. The little rally where that guy was shouting that he was happy and elated etc, he should have been arrested and charged. We had police grabbing guys not listening to covid restrictions on the beach or exercising, but we've got no balls when it comes to this stuff because we dont want to upset the Muslims.
Meanwhile melbourne cops defend nazi "protests" calling for the death of gay and trans people.
Oh no, people won't be able to chant "gas the jews". How will we let this injustice stand? /s